REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

The Atheist Church

POSTED BY: MAGONSDAUGHTER
UPDATED: Tuesday, September 17, 2013 16:46
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Saturday, September 14, 2013 7:34 PM

MAGONSDAUGHTER



Quote:


It started, as a number of the world's great religions have done, with a small group of friends and a persuasive idea: why should atheists miss out on all the good things churches have to offer? What would happen if they set up a "godless congregation" that met to celebrate life, with no hope of the hereafter?

Eight months after their first meeting in a deconsecrated church in north London, the founders of the Sunday Assembly have their answer: on Sunday they will announce the formation of satellite congregations in more than 20 cities across Britain and the world, the first wave of an expansion that they believe could see 40 atheist churches springing up by the year and as many as 1,000 worldwide within a decade.

From Glasgow, Leeds, Bristol and Dublin, to New York, San Diego and Vancouver, to Perth, Melbourne and Sydney, groups of non-believers will be getting together to form their own monthly Sunday Assemblies, with the movement's founders – the standup comedians Sanderson Jones and Pippa Evans – visiting the fledgling congregations in what they are calling, only partly in jest, a "global missionary tour".

Though he always suspected he was not the only one to regret that his lack of faith excluded him from a church-style community, Jones admits to being a little bewildered by the speed and scale at which his idea has caught on. "When I had the idea for this, I always thought if it was something I would like to go to in London then it was something other people would like to go to in other places.

"The one thing that we didn't take into account was the power of the internet, and I think even more than that, the fact that there is obviously a latent need for this kind of thing. People have always congregated around things that they believe in. I think people are going to look back at the fact that it didn't happen as the oddity, not this part."

Satellite assemblies will agree to the central charter of Jones and Evans's original gathering – which still meets monthly in central London – and Jones expects them, initially at least, to stick to a similar format, in which a "host" leads several hundred congregants through songs, moments of contemplation and a sermon-like (but secular) talk.

"If we do it in London and there are 400 people who come, that's brilliant, but if we find a way to help hundreds of people to set one up then we can have a bigger impact than we could ever dream of," says Jones. Their vision, he says, is "a godless gathering in every town, city or village that wants one".

Stuart Balkham is one of a small group of Brighton unbelievers who next weekend will hold their inaugural assembly – the theme is beginnings – in a disused church in Hove.

He and his partner went to the London gathering where, he says, "there was just something that clicked". Part of the appeal was the style of non-worship: "It's unashamedly copying a familiar Church of England format, so it's part of the collective consciousness."

Balkham says he has envied churches the sense of community they can offer, and thinks atheists can learn from the social good that many churches do. "It's naive to deny that there's a lot of good that comes out of organised religion, and I think helping in the community is another thing that Sunday Assemblies should be aspiring to unashamedly copy."

Nick Spencer, research director of Theos, a thinktank looking at religion's role in society, says the growth of the movement may appear striking but it is not necessarily new. "This contemporary idea of people who are not religious but wanting to maintain some kind of church-like existence has got form. We've been here before."

Spencer, who will publish a book next year on the history of atheism, sees echoes of the late 19th century, when hundreds of "ethical unions" were founded in response to the growing atheism of the times. The movement, he says, similarly concentrated on good works and community around a recognisably church-like liturgy, but petered out within a generation or two.

"The reason for that was because you need more than an absence to keep you together. You need a firm common purpose. What you can see in these modern-day atheist churches is people united by a felt absence of community. I suspect what brings them together is a real desire for community when in a modern, urbanised individualised city like London you can often feel very alone. That creates a lot of camaraderie, but the challenge then becomes, what actually unites us?"

Jones says he is alive to criticism that the assemblies appeal to a limited demographic – young, professional and overwhelmingly white – but says: "I don't there's anything that's inherently elite about people getting together to sing songs and think about themselves and improve their community. But we can't wait to see people doing it in all manner of different places in all manner of different ways, that appeal to all manner of different people."

In the meantime, a few members of the London congregation have already started thinking about setting up a free school guided by Sunday Assembly principles, raising the prospect, as Jones notes, "of Christians one day lying about being atheists to get their children into school".
The Sunday Assembly missionary tour,



http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/sep/14/atheist-sunday-assembly-b
ranches-out


I could be interested.

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Saturday, September 14, 2013 9:00 PM

WISHIMAY


Hell, if I knew I wouldn't get lynched, I'd start one here...

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Saturday, September 14, 2013 9:12 PM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up


Sounds like it might be interesting.

I'd hope that it doesn't get as dogmatic as some atheist organizations that get all bent out of shape at any public reference to a deity.


"When your heart breaks, you choose what to fill the cracks with. Love or hate. But hate won't ever heal. Only love can do that."

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Sunday, September 15, 2013 7:57 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by Geezer:
Sounds like it might be interesting.

I'd hope that it doesn't get as dogmatic as some atheist organizations that get all bent out of shape at any public reference to a deity.


"When your heart breaks, you choose what to fill the cracks with. Love or hate. But hate won't ever heal. Only love can do that."



Yeah. Hostile atheists really don't endear themselves to the public.

Fathom the hypocrisy of a government that requires every citizen to prove they are insured... but not everyone must prove they are a citizen

Resident USA Freedom Fundie

" AU, that was great, LOL!! " - Chrisisall

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Sunday, September 15, 2013 8:41 AM

MAGONSDAUGHTER


Depends on the public. The US is a highly religious country. Atheism does not seem to be widely accepted or even tolerated in some parts.

I note that your presidents always have to be churchgoers, always have to mention god. It appears you would be unelectable if you declared yourself an atheist.

People who object to religion being institutionalised are critised for being fanatical, when in fact they would prefer religion to be a matter of private conscience rather than public policy.

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Sunday, September 15, 2013 12:05 PM

BYTEMITE


Quote:

Originally posted by Magonsdaughter:

It started, as a number of the world's great religions have done, with a small group of friends and a persuasive idea: why should atheists miss out on all the good things churches have to offer? What would happen if they set up a "godless congregation" that met to celebrate life, with no hope of the hereafter?



That is just completely missing the point.

As if it's not hard enough to get any credibility in terms of the science versus religion conversation, and having to deal with all the prejudice, they have to go off and make a church that's liable to get mistaken for the satanists. Fan-fuggin-tastic.

Well, they'll do what they want, and if they need a damned support group to deal with their own beliefs, that's their business. But I don't even know them and I'm disappointed in them. It stinks of a lack of conviction in the ideas.

The REASON atheists don't like CHURCHES is because even the good sides of a church like the charity and the help are based on POWER PLAYS and POLITICS and intolerant DOGMA against other belief systems. To create an atheist organization that recreates all those frustrating and oppressive dynamics is quite possibly among the most foolhardy ideas I've ever heard.

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Sunday, September 15, 2013 9:17 PM

OONJERAH


^ What Bytemite said.


I agree that to base it on the church model is suspicious, a turn off.
I don't see how it would appeal to independant thinkers.

The only way such an organization would interest me is as a discussion
group. Everyone gets a chance to have their say.


======================
A man's gotta know his superstitions

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Sunday, September 15, 2013 9:32 PM

WISHIMAY


Yeah, but if ya gots kids....It's tough to raise them non-churchy when everything around you screams CHURCHY. I myself enjoy being a hermit but it's harder on a little one that don't understand.

Sometimes a little community isn't such a bad thing either, to pretend that people are actually capable of not being complete sucking voids for five minutes. It's a lie of course, but everyone likes to play pretend...

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Sunday, September 15, 2013 10:39 PM

MAGONSDAUGHTER


Quote:

Originally posted by BYTEMITE:

That is just completely missing the point.

As if it's not hard enough to get any credibility in terms of the science versus religion conversation, and having to deal with all the prejudice, they have to go off and make a church that's liable to get mistaken for the satanists. Fan-fuggin-tastic.

Well, they'll do what they want, and if they need a damned support group to deal with their own beliefs, that's their business. But I don't even know them and I'm disappointed in them. It stinks of a lack of conviction in the ideas.

The REASON atheists don't like CHURCHES is because even the good sides of a church like the charity and the help are based on POWER PLAYS and POLITICS and intolerant DOGMA against other belief systems. To create an atheist organization that recreates all those frustrating and oppressive dynamics is quite possibly among the most foolhardy ideas I've ever heard.



Not all aspects of all religions are fundamentally bad, nor are they all based upon power plays/dogma or intolerant dogma. I think you are lumping other a vast pantheon, if you'll excuse the pun, of beliefs and practises into one horrible lump.

Personally, i miss the community that comes with church going, and I miss the comfort of known rituals that accompany birth, relationships, death etc. I miss being able to pray when things suck, and knowing that other people are praying with you or for you as well. It's not about the big god on the other side listening, but more knowing that there is a group of people who are thinking collectively about you.

I also a lot of religions get behind a lot of causes that I personally support, especially those related to human rights issues. In fact, if it wasn't for the fact that I have no belief in a deity, I could be a very religious person.

I think what this movement is trying to do is recognise these good things about religion, and applying them in an atheist context. I think there is a danger that they could reproduce some of the dogma and rigidity that is inherent in some religious systems, I can agree with you there, but I understand where they are coming from.

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Sunday, September 15, 2013 10:44 PM

MAGONSDAUGHTER


Quote:

Originally posted by Wishimay:
Sometimes a little community isn't such a bad thing either, to pretend that people are actually capable of not being complete sucking voids for five minutes. It's a lie of course, but everyone likes to play pretend...



I believe more and more we are being conditioned to not be able to tolerate others, its part of being in societies that value the individual so completely.

if its all about ME, and my happiness, and everyone around me is alsp all about THEM and their individual happiness, then it stands to reason that we piss each other off quite easily.

I feel the passing of my parents generation, the depression/ww2 era people. what they lacked in imagination, they made up for in their capacity to think more widely than their own personal needs. Something went missing in generations after the war.

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Monday, September 16, 2013 12:40 AM

BYTEMITE


Quote:

Personally, i miss the community that comes with church going, and I miss the comfort of known rituals that accompany birth, relationships, death etc. I miss being able to pray when things suck, and knowing that other people are praying with you or for you as well. It's not about the big god on the other side listening, but more knowing that there is a group of people who are thinking collectively about you.


"Hey, good luck on your new baby/job/love interest/graduation/surgery! We're all pulling for you!"

Problem solved.

Also, my atheist parents had approximately zero problems raising me to be both atheist and completely uninterested in the pop-culture peer pressure goodies-rewards-fear-punishment system of most (all?) modern religions.

In Utah.

Surrounded by MORMONS who are, to put it lightly, COMPLETELY RELENTLESS. And who also constitute a vast majority of my actual blood relatives, who I see every Sunday.

Give your kids more credit. You raised them, the mechanisms of faith are likely to be completely transparent and nonsensical to them. Just as children raised with faith generally can't understand at all how anyone could NOT believe.

No, this organized church for atheists tastes more like... A seedy, awful power grab. Perhaps promoted by various interests who would like to encourage secular unified completely un-diverse societies for their own benefits and our detriment. I would have no truck with these people who think they are clever enough to manipulate me.

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Monday, September 16, 2013 1:05 AM

BYTEMITE


Quote:

Originally posted by Magonsdaughter:

I believe more and more we are being conditioned to not be able to tolerate others, its part of being in societies that value the individual so completely.

if its all about ME, and my happiness, and everyone around me is alsp all about THEM and their individual happiness, then it stands to reason that we piss each other off quite easily.

I feel the passing of my parents generation, the depression/ww2 era people. what they lacked in imagination, they made up for in their capacity to think more widely than their own personal needs. Something went missing in generations after the war.



Hardly. That is merely only the confluence of rose coloured glasses and the traditional mistrust of every generation towards the younger generations.

Here in America, that WW2 generation was often the generation that was directly in opposition to the 60s counterculture, including civil rights, anti-war sentiments, gender freedom, and, of course, anarchism.

This continued up until about the 80s, when the "Me" Generation arose... The last crop of the baby boomers. Who, as it turned out, eventually managed around a $2,000 plus donations to charity yearly, at least until the economic downturn.

And then there's the lazy, self-obsessed millenial generation. Aren't they all just twit(ter)s? Surely nothing good will come of any of them. Except they are more in touch with social issues and community with each other and the world than previous generations could be, due to technology constraints. The millenial generation started Occupy Wall Street. The millenial generation invented alternative pay-what-you-want systems that help out poorer customers. And they also give about as much to charity as older generations, which is surprising as they are NOT necessarily established financially and the job markets are shit for new workers.

http://nonprofit.about.com/od/donorrelations/a/youngdonors.htm

So what does this all mean? Could it be that ALL generations have EQUAL capacity for altruism, and they really AREN'T getting any worse? That perhaps people are the same, always have been, and always will be, no matter when they lived? Is it possible that the perception of generations being worse is actually malicious fear-mongering from certain political and religious groups that make gravy from parents and grandparents being scared of their own kids? Astonishing.

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Monday, September 16, 2013 2:57 AM

MAGONSDAUGHTER


Quote:

Originally posted by BYTEMITE:


"Hey, good luck on your new baby/job/love interest/graduation/surgery! We're all pulling for you!"

Problem solved.

Also, my atheist parents had approximately zero problems raising me to be both atheist and completely uninterested in the pop-culture peer pressure goodies-rewards-fear-punishment system of most (all?) modern religions.

In Utah.

Surrounded by MORMONS who are, to put it lightly, COMPLETELY RELENTLESS. And who also constitute a vast majority of my actual blood relatives, who I see every Sunday.

Give your kids more credit. You raised them, the mechanisms of faith are likely to be completely transparent and nonsensical to them. Just as children raised with faith generally can't understand at all how anyone could NOT believe.




I never mentioned my kids. That was Wishimay. I'm speaking solely for myself as one who as raised within a church and no longer believes.

If it's not for you, meh. I don't think its compulsory, so if something like this was happening in my area, I'd check it out. Cautiously.

if its not something that works for you, then don't participate. I don't believe it to be compulsory.

Quote:


No, this organized church for atheists tastes more like... A seedy, awful power grab. Perhaps promoted by various interests who would like to encourage secular unified completely un-diverse societies for their own benefits and our detriment. I would have no truck with these people who think they are clever enough to manipulate me.



That is a rather pressimistic view of something that seems at worst, kind of pointless, but rather benign. But that's you huh, I remember having similar conversations where you were suspicious of meditation being put to nefarious uses to make us all calm and happy. Oh the horror, the horror.


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Monday, September 16, 2013 4:56 AM

MAGONSDAUGHTER


Quote:

Originally posted by BYTEMITE:


So what does this all mean? Could it be that ALL generations have EQUAL capacity for altruism, and they really AREN'T getting any worse? That perhaps people are the same, always have been, and always will be, no matter when they lived? Is it possible that the perception of generations being worse is actually malicious fear-mongering from certain political and religious groups that make gravy from parents and grandparents being scared of their own kids? Astonishing.



My you are being oppositional today. And is that a tad of hostility I detect?

i didn't say that generations were getting worse, in fact I have consistently argued the opposite.

But generations are different, particularly the pre and post war generations. I personally can't see big differences in baby boomers, gen x y etc.

There has been much written about the change from collective cultures to individualistic cultures and I think a big leap happened in the generation post war. Doesn't mean that collective cultures = all good and individualistic = all bad. Collective cultures tend to be more intolerant of difference, but more supportive of members. Individualistic cultures tend to be more tolerant, but members can be isolated from one another. Collective buffers against failure, individualistic celbrates success and shuns failure. of course I',m generalising, and I don't suggest that my parents were apart of a collective culture, just a slightly less individualistic one.

I have seen first hand the flaws of that generation, but as I grow older and they die off, I can also mourn for their good qualities that are passing with them.

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Monday, September 16, 2013 10:07 AM

BYTEMITE


Quote:

Originally posted by Magonsdaughter:


That is a rather pressimistic view of something that seems at worst, kind of pointless, but rather benign.



Erm. YEAH? What's it been, five years since I showed up on this shore? How many times have I had to say I'm a cynic? And this still surprises people? Of COURSE I'm gonna be suspicious, and also just a little bit paranoid, because I've got good REASON to be. This idea is so questionable, that I can't help but think the reason it's so bizarre is because there must be ulterior motives at play.

Quote:

But that's you huh, I remember having similar conversations where you were suspicious of meditation being put to nefarious uses to make us all calm and happy. Oh the horror, the horror.




Red herring, but if you want to go there, I also have no truck with empty spiritualism and superstitions. Believe them if you want, but the people pushing these agenda ridden practices can ONLY lead to manipulation and charlatanism. Boy oh boy, I just love me all them "experts" who say you can meditate away cancer with positive thinking, no surgery or chemo required, they'll teach you how for the low low cost of a thousand bucks a month.

People die because of this. So yes, I will fight against these these "pointless but benign" practices and the "science" that supports them with my teeth and claws BARED.

Quote:

My you are being oppositional today. And is that a tad of hostility I detect?


Absolutely. See previous.

But it's not at YOU unless you want to make it about you. You probably don't post these things thinking you're helping assholes con people. Malice is not in your motivations. But I doubt you'll listen to me when I try to warn you off.

The true test will be, when the alarms sound in your mind, if you will heed THOSE. As for me, I suppose I have to learn that I must let things play out, and sometimes people have to experience that kind of betrayal for themselves before they can see the existence of it.

Quote:

I have seen first hand the flaws of that generation, but as I grow older and they die off, I can also mourn for their good qualities that are passing with them.


I am surrounded by people on this board who think that generations ARE getting worse. If you reject that particular message, good, but you don't really give that impression when you talk about how generations have "lost" some fundamental good quality, and hint that it might be because current generations are so individualistic.

Side note: the people in my generation are collectivist as HELL (see again Occupy Wall Street and hipster communes), and I'm more of a bristling jerkass outlier. Previous generations actually knew how to support themselves, individualistically, whereas my generation has been so coddled by over-protective parenting they have no idea what they're even doing, and couldn't find common sense in a paper bag.

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Monday, September 16, 2013 3:55 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!



Quote:

If you crave the group/community without God then this looks great, not sure why anyone would dismiss it, seems way too early.


Other than to " make the world more wonderful ", there does seem to be lacking a real central theme, per the video.

Why would anyone be 'skeptical' of such an effort ? While it sounds noble on the surface, we can thank the charlatans of the ACTUAL Church ( Xtian ), who do have a very well established sales pitch, a couple of thousand years of history, who, on occasion, still non the less fleece their flock and even at times help themselves to the women folk, ( under the veil of 'guiding them', you see ), to all sorts of cultish activity. From the Inquisition, the Salem Witch Trials, to Westboro Baptists, there's all manner of reasons and examples for folks to be skeptical.


As for joining up w/ like minded folks, of course that sounds nice. The main reason many folks attend churches are to hear the choirs, which can be quite uplifting. That and the killer pipe organs which bellow out in those big churches. Really a crowd pleaser, those can be.



Fathom the hypocrisy of a government that requires every citizen to prove they are insured... but not everyone must prove they are a citizen

Resident USA Freedom Fundie

" AU, that was great, LOL!! " - Chrisisall

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Monday, September 16, 2013 5:52 PM

MAGONSDAUGHTER


Quote:

Originally posted by BYTEMITE:


Erm. YEAH? What's it been, five years since I showed up on this shore? How many times have I had to say I'm a cynic? And this still surprises people? Of COURSE I'm gonna be suspicious, and also just a little bit paranoid, because I've got good REASON to be. This idea is so questionable, that I can't help but think the reason it's so bizarre is because there must be ulterior motives at play.



Right, I do know that you tend to be quite paranoid and have a harsh view on things. Tends to make conversations difficult/

Quote:

I also have no truck with empty spiritualism and superstitions. Believe them if you want, but the people pushing these agenda ridden practices can ONLY lead to manipulation and charlatanism. Boy oh boy, I just love me all them "experts" who say you can meditate away cancer with positive thinking, no surgery or chemo required, they'll teach you how for the low low cost of a thousand bucks a month.

People die because of this. So yes, I will fight against these these "pointless but benign" practices and the "science" that supports them with my teeth and claws BARED.



People dont die because of meditation practices, but because charlatans are spouting nonsense. No science backs up these claims of curing cancer. Meditation is a practice that some people find useful in bringing a bit of calm to their lives. The science does back up the impact on the brain, but yes I remember your reaction to that. You don't believe in scientific data, or perhaps just not what other people quote.

In any event, your nihilism is too much for me to stomach today.

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Monday, September 16, 2013 7:08 PM

BYTEMITE


Quote:

You don't believe in scientific data, or perhaps just not what other people quote.



Okay. Let it be known that YOU are the one who escalated this.

Heh. I don't believe in science? Pissed you off, so I must be wrong, I must be illogical, I must not be scientific!

You throw me a bunch of studies that I can immediately find flaws in, I can quote you meta-studies notable enough to be cited in a gorramn wikipedia article that says the combination of all these studies indicates the effects of meditation are INCONCLUSIVE and how they often use poor methodology to the point where only 10% of such studies actually pass the test of scientific rigour. I can tell you that meta-analysis found that effects on the brain are largely indistinct from any other kind of relaxation technique someone might practice, and I can even poke holes in the lofty mental silence meditation promoters and how they predictably claim theirs is the best. And you have the gall to say I'm being unscientific.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Research_on_meditation

Damned right I don't have an open mind, and good thing too, I might start believing some silver-tongued fool with pretty words and a head fulla fluff has all the answers I need in my life, that just being around like-minded individuals can make me feel better about myself and make me a better person, instead of questioning myself, looking for answers on my own and coming to terms with them.

Atheist religion. Scientific meditation. No, it doesn't start to sound any better the more I say it.

So believe as you want, and I know you will, but don't you dare pretend I don't have good valid and scientically supportable reason for believing what I do and that you have the monopoly on the science on this issue. If you can consider your views supportable then dammit so can mine.

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Tuesday, September 17, 2013 4:46 PM

STORYMARK


Quote:

Originally posted by Oonjerah:


The only way such an organization would interest me is as a discussion
group. Everyone gets a chance to have their say.



Sounds a lot like our local Unitarian Church, which has members of most major faiths, as well as atheists.




"Goram it kid, let's frak this thing and go home! Engage!"

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