REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

Ronald Reagan - rot!

POSTED BY: GHOULMAN
UPDATED: Sunday, July 11, 2004 12:01
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Monday, June 7, 2004 10:17 AM

GHOULMAN



66 (Unflattering) Things About Ronald Reagan
By David Corn, The Nation
June 6, 2004
http://www.alternet.org/story.html?StoryID=18874

Editor's Note: This list of "66 Things to Think about When Flying in to Reagan National Airport" appeared in the Nation on March 2, 1998 after the renaming of Washington National Airport after Ronald Reagan. As Corn says, "the piece remains relevant today – particularly as a cheat sheet for those who dare to point out the Reagan presidency was not all that glorious and was more nightmare in America than morning in America."

The firing of the air traffic controllers, winnable nuclear war, recallable nuclear missiles, trees that cause pollution, Elliott Abrams lying to Congress, ketchup as a vegetable, colluding with Guatemalan thugs, pardons for F.B.I. lawbreakers, voodoo economics, budget deficits, toasts to Ferdinand Marcos, public housing cutbacks, redbaiting the nuclear freeze movement, James Watt.

Getting cozy with Argentine fascist generals, tax credits for segregated schools, disinformation campaigns, "homeless by choice," Manuel Noriega, falling wages, the HUD scandal, air raids on Libya, "constructive engagement" with apartheid South Africa, United States Information Agency blacklists of liberal speakers, attacks on OSHA and workplace safety, the invasion of Grenada, assassination manuals, Nancy's astrologer.

Drug tests, lie detector tests, Fawn Hall, female appointees (8 percent), mining harbors, the S&L scandal, 239 dead U.S. troops in Beirut, Al Haig "in control," silence on AIDS, food-stamp reductions, Debategate, White House shredding, Jonas Savimbi, tax cuts for the rich, "mistakes were made."

Michael Deaver's conviction for influence peddling, Lyn Nofziger's conviction for influence peddling, Caspar Weinberger's five-count indictment, Ed Meese ("You don't have many suspects who are innocent of a crime"), Donald Regan (women don't "understand throw-weights"), education cuts, massacres in El Salvador.

"The bombing begins in five minutes," $640 Pentagon toilet seats, African-American judicial appointees (1.9 percent), Reader's Digest, C.I.A.-sponsored car-bombing in Lebanon (more than eighty civilians killed), 200 officials accused of wrongdoing, William Casey, Iran/contra. "Facts are stupid things," three-by-five cards, the MX missile, Bitburg, S.D.I., Robert Bork, naps, Teflon.

David Corn, Washington editor of the Nation, is author of 'The Lies of George W. Bush: Mastering the Politics of Deception.'

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Monday, June 7, 2004 10:27 AM

QUICKSAND


This bein' a fairly liberal-mined FF board, I'm not sure if you're about to get attacked or praised, Ghoulman... but I just wanted to offer:

He suffered a long time, even if he DID grow up to be a total d*ck. Give him a day or two, at least. I mean, c'mon, even if Dubya got taken out tomorrow, I'd still be sad a few days.

(um, no i wouldn't... is the dept. of homeland security reading this?)


___\_o_/___
--------------- (Qs)

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Monday, June 7, 2004 10:43 AM

SERGEANTX


Wow, thanks for putting things in perspective Ghoulman. I was never a cheerleader for Reagan, but if that list represents his worst, it makes me nostalgic. I can't imagine how nasty Bush43rd's rap sheet is gonna look twenty years from now.

SergeantX

"Dream a little dream or you can live a little dream. I'd rather live it, cause dreamers always chase but never get it." Aesop Rock

Big Damn Heroes is here:
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Monday, June 7, 2004 10:47 AM

GUNRUNNER


Quote:

Originally posted by Ghoulman:
recallable nuclear missiles



Uhhhhh its been done, about 40 years before Reagan was elected the US Navy deployed the Regulas Missile off submarines of the Greyback class (USS Greyback, and USS Growler) and Halibut class (USS Halibut).

The Regulas missile was remote guided via ship/sub/airplane, and could be recalled and even landed on a runway for recovery.

BTW When Reagan was an actor filming “Hellcats of the Navy” he was partially responsible for destroying a US Navy Dock. The Captain of this sub (That was tied up at aforementioned dock) informed his crew to do exactly what Reagan said (he meant when they began filming), a sailor heard Reagan practicing his lines in his room’s mirror and the sailor relayed the orders to the Conn. I think you can imagine the chaos that resulted…

-That has nothing really to do with this I just thought it was funny [true] story.

The Firefly CCG Web Site:
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Monday, June 7, 2004 11:39 AM

PEACE


Quote:

Originally posted by SergeantX:
Wow, thanks for putting things in perspective Ghoulman. I was never a cheerleader for Reagan, but if that list represents his worst, it makes me nostalgic. I can't imagine how nasty Bush43rd's rap sheet is gonna look twenty years from now.

SergeantX

"Dream a little dream or you can live a little dream. I'd rather live it, cause dreamers always chase but never get it." Aesop Rock

Big Damn Heroes is here:
http://sunflower.com/~gamearts



Yes, the impossible has happened-- somebody came along who made Reagan's tenure in the White House look like the good old days. I would rather have Reagan back than than endure another term under El Supremo, uh, Dubya.

I was genuinely saddened by Reagan's passing-- the death of any person is a moment to pause and reflect, and the manner of his passing, I would not wish on anyone. May he rest in peace.

Oh, bugger! Now I have to wait for someone to wake up!

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Monday, June 7, 2004 12:47 PM

ANNIK


Quote:

Originally posted by Peace:
(snipped)
I was genuinely saddened by Reagan's passing-- the death of any person is a moment to pause and reflect, and the manner of his passing, I would not wish on anyone. May he rest in peace.



I agree. As a Canadian, it was impossible not to hear about Reagan over the years. But there is great truth in the idea that how a society treats its dead is a great indicator of the quality of that society.

To me, compassion is the ability to mourn the death of our enemies as well as our friends.

Cheers,
Annik
... my sister's a ship. We had a complicated childhood.

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Monday, June 7, 2004 1:12 PM

GRACEOM


Quote:

Originally posted by Peace:
Yes, the impossible has happened-- somebody came along who made Reagan's tenure in the White House look like the good old days. I would rather have Reagan back than than endure another term under El Supremo, uh, Dubya.



Exactly what I've been thinking. I was no fan, but hearing his cheery voice in old speeches replayed...I kinda miss him.

Still, it raises my eyebrows to hear him described as "one of America's greatest presidents." The Soviet Union may have fallen apart during his tenure, but I'm still not convinced he single handedly brought about its demise--as is being widely touted on the news in recent days.

Quote:

I was genuinely saddened by Reagan's passing-- the death of any person is a moment to pause and reflect, and the manner of his passing, I would not wish on anyone. May he rest in peace.



Indeed. And condolences to Nancy, may she carry on with her efforts in support of stem cell research.

Grace

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Monday, June 7, 2004 4:09 PM

PEACE


Quote:

Originally posted by GraceOM:
Quote:

snipped...

Still, it raises my eyebrows to hear him described as "one of America's greatest presidents." The Soviet Union may have fallen apart during his tenure, but I'm still not convinced he single handedly brought about its demise--as is being widely touted on the news in recent days.




Indeed, the Soviet Union was already in the process of imploding; whether RR sped the process along is another issue.

Reagan loomed large during his time because, I believe, he told Americans things they wanted to hear. Note that this is distinct from telling them what they need to hear-- Jimmy Carter tried that, and between his own lack of political skills and his preachy manner, he was crucified.

Reagan also had a disproportionate impact during his tenure because he was so unabashedly pro those-who-have versus those who ain't-- all the while cloaking his agenda with homespun humor and flag-waving. He was not wholly successsful, but his administration was a training ground for many of the thugs-- yes, thugs-- who are in the White House today-- as well as serving to advance the interests of some people who are downright scary, such as the extreme religious right (ever read Heinlein's Revolt in 2100? It's about a theocratic dictatorship in America-- Heinlein said that no one he ever talked to about it ever questioned the plausibility of the premise).

Right now the rhetoric about Reagan is pretty purple, and I just want to insert my two cents of dissent from this opinion. In the long run, I don't think history will be very kind to Reagan; I'm pretty sure he'll rank in the lower third of presidents.

I will now retire to my foxhole in anticipation of the incoming fire this statement is going to take....

Oh, bugger! Now I have to wait for someone to wake up!

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Monday, June 7, 2004 4:11 PM

ECGORDON

There's no place I can be since I found Serenity.


The best that I can say about Reagan is that I think he was just as good a president as he was an actor.



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Monday, June 7, 2004 5:12 PM

GINOBIFFARONI


Just to point out,

Jimmy Carter for one, started to spend money in order to push the Soviet Union over the edge, incidently some of this money was spent to encourage muslim radicals to terrorist attacks, destabilizing the Southern Russian Republics.

This precipitated the Soviet invasion of Afganistan, and in a way brought us to the
war(s) today.........

Hindsight ain't it grand

" If I going to get killed for a word....
Then my word is Poon-Tang "

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Monday, June 7, 2004 6:01 PM

DARKARCHON


Can you feel the love in the room?

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Monday, June 7, 2004 6:17 PM

EBONEZER


"Have you ever stopped to think that if Reagan had not gone into politics he...would probably be doing guest shots on Loveboat?"

-From All Kidding Aside by Charles R. Johnson

It really doesn't have much to do with anything, but I think it's pretty funny. Its from a monologe i have to proform tomorow in theater.

-----------------------------------

Four out of five dentists reccomend calling Ebo a girl.

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Monday, June 7, 2004 6:22 PM

DBELL46


Quote:

Originally posted by Peace:

Right now the rhetoric about Reagan is pretty purple, and I just want to insert my two cents of dissent from this opinion. In the long run, I don't think history will be very kind to Reagan; I'm pretty sure he'll rank in the lower third of presidents.

I will now retire to my foxhole in anticipation of the incoming fire this statement is going to take....

Oh, bugger! Now I have to wait for someone to wake up!



Ronald Reagan's popularity was, for the most part, always a media artifact. True story; on the day he was shot, I was eating lunch in a center city Philadelphia restaurant with a mixed group of people (young, old, black, white), when someone
ran in from the street and said that Reagan had been shot. Quite a few people stood up and cheered.

Also, has anyone ever heard of a book entitled The October Surprise? If the author's right
Bush the first and others committed treason to make Carter look bad before the election in order to get Reagan in. Then two U.S. senators (John Hiens and Robert Tower) die during the arms-for-
hostages investigation.... within two weeks of each other...in aircraft crashes (one helicopter, and one business jet)


****************************************************
Treason doth never prosper. For if it does,
none dare call it treason.
****************************************************

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Monday, June 7, 2004 6:47 PM

THOREAU


Sure he had that honest, friendly voice..he was an actor, plain and simple. Let's not pretend he was a hero of the american people just because he knew how to play the role of a gentle father. How many of the highest ranking government officials from his tenure DIDN'T end up on trial for their actions? 4?

I'd dance on dubya's grave before the diggers even got there, for Reagan I just nod indifferently. Current administration taken into consideration, he was still pretty bad, but not as bad as it can be.

t

Jayne: "These are stone killers, little man. They ain't cuddly like me."

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Tuesday, June 8, 2004 5:01 AM

CPTCRCKPOT


Frankly, I'm appalled after reading these messages. A human being has died, and all most of you can do is talk about the things you disliked and disagreed with him about. This is not about politics, this is about the death of a fellow human being. Using the occasion of his death as a time to air your political differences with him, and with our current president, is inappropriate at best, heartless and cruel at worst. You, who would cry and lament the death of an imaginary character in a TV show, cannot bring yourself to feel anything but disdain at the death of a real person. Shame on all of you who have used this moment as a time to attack the deceased, instead of mourning the loss of a fellow member of the human race.

No matter where you go, there you are

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Tuesday, June 8, 2004 5:47 AM

HKCAVALIER


In my experience, death's a pretty straight forward thing and people have a right to their feelings--good or bad.

I don't see anything wrong with taking this occasion to criticize the former president--particularly in light of the media's gushy lionizing to which we've all been subjected this week and the fact the we'll be spending millions of dollars that we can't afford on his state funeral (the first for an ex-president in 30 years--why now?).

When people die, other people tend to do one of two things: make up a lot of embarrassing, schmaltzy lies about what great humanitarians they were, or they get in touch with the truth of how they feel about that person. The honesty often takes the form of unexpressed love, or recognition of the small decent things we've witnessed the departed do in their lifetime, but it can also be very negative--particularly if the departed held a great deal of power in our lives. No, you prolly don't make a scene at your evil grandfather's funeral, but you don't suffer all the phoney eulogizing either.

And what have we been getting on the tv non-stop for the past two days? Phoney eulogizing.

Reagan does not deserve any less respect than anyone else who has died, but he certainly doesn't deserve any more.

P.S: Hey, CptCrckpot, nice sig you got there

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

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Tuesday, June 8, 2004 6:20 AM

ARAWAEN


I don't mourn the dead, but it is humane to have compassion for the survivors. They did not lose a president (good or bad), they lost a father or a husband.

Quote:

A man's dying is more the survivors' affair than his own.
~Thomas Mann

I cannot deny however that I take some measure of comfort in the belief that justice is not so disproportionately applied in the next life.

Quote:

In the democracy of the dead all men at last are equal. There is neither rank nor station nor prerogative in the republic of the grave.
~John James Ingalls

Arawaen

Um, I'm lost. Uh, I'm Angry. And I'm Armed.

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Tuesday, June 8, 2004 6:50 AM

GRACEOM


I am sorry the man is dead, and even more sorry that he had to suffer from such a dreadful, pitiless, and eventually degrading disease. I'm especially sorry for his widow, who I firmly believe was devoted to him.

But I'm still apalled by the hagiography, which has been bordering on revisionist history. Let's remember the man for the positive aspects of his personality, and for the worthwhile things he actually did (like burying the hatchet with Gorbachov). We don't have to discuss the less appealing "accomplishments" of his presidency right now; I'm content to respectfully let them rest and keep my opinions to myself. But let's not lie about them either.

Grace

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Tuesday, June 8, 2004 7:16 AM

KALATHENA


My two favorite were left off the list:

Taxing children to balance the budget
Endorsing the Ba'ath Party in Iraq & Syria

I'm REALLY getting tired of hearing how Reagan single-handedly ended the cold war. Sheesh. Are people's memories really that short? The USSR died because someone had a cell phone when the coup went down.

I am truly sorry that he suffered an insufferable disease. I've worked in a nursing home in the past and Alzheimer's is a HORRIBLE way to have to deteriorate and die. I would not wish that on anyone.

But I cannot bring myself to say my usual prayer for the dead: "Goddess keep him until he returns to us." My only prayer for Reagan will be "Goddess keep him. Please".

--Kala

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Tuesday, June 8, 2004 9:11 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


I hated Reagan even during "Death Valley Days". Something in my (at the time) little kid ears heard a BIG FAT PHONY!

It didn't get any better by the time the Presidential elections rolled around. When he campaigned on cutting taxes, increasing military spending, and balancing the budget, I knew he had less than one foot in reality.

I hope he rests in peace. We, however, have to live with his legacy.


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Tuesday, June 8, 2004 12:58 PM

THOREAU


"a fellow human being has died"

yeah, that doesn't happen every single second of every day. oh wait, yeah it does. twice, actually, as a very conservative estimate of the average.

we're really not that special.


t

Jayne: "These are stone killers, little man. They ain't cuddly like me."

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Tuesday, June 8, 2004 1:31 PM

QUICKSAND


Hmm. Just because the Cold War ended on Reagan's watch doesn't mean it was his fault. If you follow that logic, the 9/11 attacks were Dubya's fault. WHICH IS IT, BITCHES?!! Both or neither, you can't pick and choose!!

Oh, and Al Gore invented the internet.

Look, a man died, and that's tragic. It is. But let's separate the Public Persona from the Private Persona. A famous person is both, simultaneously, whether they're an actor, politician, sports star, or rock star.

If every person posting here had met Reagan at some point in their/his life, they might have found him to be a charming, witty individual. I hear Dubya's quite the card. But in public, and especially in public office, you have a DUTY to serve the best interests of the people, not tax and spend, not to ignore AIDS like it'll go away, and not to "forget" you had conversations with Oliver North about selling weapons to the Iranians. Did the note above talk about how Reagan/Bush put Saddam in power to overthrow the previous regime? Mm-hmm.

I'm sure Reagan the Man was a decent, dedicated, Patriot of a human being. As a President, he was a right bastard, and why are we still talking about this. Don't forget to Vote!!


___\_o_/___
--------------- (Qs)

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Tuesday, June 8, 2004 6:01 PM

RUE


Don't know quite who to thank for being mentally absent during the Reagan years ... what with college tuition being gotten together in tips and hamburgers. Working nights and weekends, and schooling days. It all went by in a blur. And living with a bunch of Canadian wanna-be's on the border and listening to CBC radio. It was like the US was some distant country. Thank god for small favors. (Or maybe thank the god of small things.)

But looking at Reagan's hosannas and his list of 'accomplishments' ... the US still hasn't learned to judge people by what they DO rather than how they SEEM.

As for that person/politician split, not religious, but another one of my favorite quotes (Gospel of Thomas) "Jesus said, 'You have become as the Pharisees. You either love the tree and hate the fruit, or love the fruit and hate the tree.'" Or, to hammer it home in an obvious way, it's all of a piece. Humor and geniality in service of hateful ends ceases to be likeable.

I truly appreciate that Nancy Reagan has come over to the dark side of stem cell research. Not just b/c of Alzheimer's, but also Parkinson's, other dementias, brain injury/spinal cord injury, Type I diabetes etc. I hope she gives the Bush bible-thumping Luddites a run for their money. (Who oddly enough have no Christian issue with war and the death penalty.)

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Tuesday, June 8, 2004 7:31 PM

ROCKETJOCK


Reagan has finally managed to die. This neither canonizes nor demonizes him.

But the magnificent irony of his long slide into Alzheimer's still amazes me.

Here is a man whose teflon coating was, to a large part, enabled by his public image as the doting, slightly fuzzy old Uncle who can't be blamed for his excesses because he's "not quite all there."

And the Gods sent him Alzheimers.

His successor, George Bush the Elder, cancelled the Federal Government's only medicinal cannabis program, cutting off medicine to glaucoma patients nationwide, dooming many of them to eventual blindness.

And the Gods sent him glaucoma.

Maybe Dante had it right; maybe the driving mechanism of the universe is poetic justice.

All that's left for the clinching proof is for Jerry Fallwell to die of HIV...

"You can't enslave a free man. The most you can do is kill him." -- Robert A. Heinlein

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Tuesday, June 8, 2004 8:51 PM

CPTCRCKPOT


Quote:

Originally posted by thoreau:
"a fellow human being has died"

yeah, that doesn't happen every single second of every day. oh wait, yeah it does. twice, actually, as a very conservative estimate of the average.

we're really not that special.



I disagree. I think we are all special, seeing as how there is only ever one of any of us. I mourn the passing of any human being, regardless of who they are. Unfortunately, it seems that we have trouble empathizing with our fellow humans. We see those with whom we disagree as "evil", and will take every opportunity to say so. I feel that attacking someone who has just died is very insensitive, and in very poor taste. While I did not agree with everything Reagan did, I feel that now is not the time to be criticizing him. At least let the body get cold before you start cutting into it. Show some respect. After all, how would you feel if someone you knew died, and people immediately started talking about how much they hated that person, and how horrible they think that person was. Wouldn't you find that disrespectful, to say the least? I'm not saying to treat Reagan's death in a special way, but just the opposite. Treat it with the respect that you would show towards the death of anyone you know, or even someone you didn't know. Of course, if we really aren't that special, as you say, perhaps none of us deserves respect, in life or in death.

No matter where you go, there you are

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Wednesday, June 9, 2004 4:06 AM

VILAVON


Here you all sit in your tiny little minds. Minds vacant of fact. Minds fed by the history you have either read of been subject to by a liberal slant of the tellers. Ronald Reagan was one of two things. He was either one of the great presidents of the 20th century or he was a bumbling, feeble minded old man. Get someone to make your mind up about that for you. I live in America. When we are attacked, I seldom think "HMMM? What does a bushman in South Africa think about me being bombed?"
Ronald Reagan knew that he was the president of the United States of America and that the USA was a part of a larger world. He came along at a time when he was needed. If you do not believe in providence, you will not follow this line of thought anyway, but if Al Gore were elected instead of George W. Bush, why do you think we would be any safer after 9-11? Would Gore have valiantly deployed troops on 9-12 to rout out the terror masterminds? One would hope so. We don't need to wonder, though. It's been done. Mr. Gore doesn't have to work another day for the rest of his life. Sit at home in Tennessee and enjoy the freedom his former opponent affords him.
To throw daggers at a former president who suffered (Yes. Alzheimer's is REAL torture, unlike having panties strapped to one's head "Experience speaking here") for the last ten years of his life and who did more good than the evil fiction you have been fed is repulsive and tends to undermine the process of cogent debate. When all you have to say about someone amounts to a verbal attack, you have nothing to say. There's a reason it is considered bad form to speak ill of the dead. It is because you appear foolish attacking one who will never strike back.
In future when former President Jimmy Carter, a good man with flawed ideas (That was not an attack) passes away, he will be mourned by me if only because he was the first president I cast my first vote for. I doubt if the conservatives will spend their energies tearing down his legacy.
As the Gipper himself said on his departure. "God bless you. God Bless America."
And thank you for your attention.

Vilavon AKA Claude

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Wednesday, June 9, 2004 5:06 AM

HERO


There is so much hate in this thread. When I heard about President Reagan's passing I did not cheer and gleefully catalogue all this perceived wrongs he has done me. I sat down and cried because a man who meant alot to me and a whole lot of my friends and neighbors here and around the world had died.

I grew up with the Reagan Presidency. To me he was bigger then life. He charted a course through the end of the Cold War that ended not with mutual destruction that many if not most of us believed we'd see in our lifetimes, but with the defeat of our adversary and the proliferation of peace, Democracy, and prosperity on a global scale. I believe we all owe him a debt that cannot be repayed.

Most of you here seem disagree. Fine. But dancing on a man's grave in the very face of those who come to mourn him...thats wrong. You should all be ashamed, but I doubt you even know what shame is.

"In closing, let me thank you, the American people, for giving me the great honor of allowing me to serve as your President. When the Lord calls me home, whenever that may be, I will leave the greatest love for this country of ours and eternal optimism for its future.

I now begin the journey that will lead me into the sunset of my life. I know that for America there will always be a bright dawn ahead.

Thank you, my friends." Ronald Reagan, 1994 letter to the American people disclosing his disease.

He thanked his friends, I'm proud to say that I am one.

I close with this final sentiment summing up everything I feel: GOD BLESS PRESIDENT REAGAN and THANK GOD FOR PRESIDENT REAGAN.

The rest of you can go to hell.

H

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Wednesday, June 9, 2004 5:19 AM

HERO


"Politics is not a bad profession. If you succeed there are many rewards, if you disgrace yourself you can always write a book."-Ronald Reagan


Bill Clinton Launches Book Tour for 'My Life'
By Andrew Stern

CHICAGO (Reuters) - Former President Bill Clinton (news - web sites) launched his book tour on Thursday, describing his soon-to-be published memoir as being tough on himself rather than on his enemies.


H

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Wednesday, June 9, 2004 7:27 AM

GHOULMAN


Some of us disagree that Ronny Raygun was anything but a warmongering puppet president who laughed while his policies killed thousands, created despots, downed democratically elected leaders abroad, and began the militarization of the USA. His record is terrible and the list above barely covers it all.

This is not to dancing on his grave. It's to counterpoint the propoganda that the so called NEWS is pounding out of our TVs. For example; They keep saying silly things like Reagan ended the Cold War. Well he didn't, he just takes credit for it.

Really don't want to go to hell as I'm sure Ronny is there waiting.

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Wednesday, June 9, 2004 8:32 AM

KALATHENA


Quote:

Originally posted by rue:
Don't know quite who to thank for being mentally absent during the Reagan years ... what with college tuition being gotten together in tips and hamburgers. Working nights and weekends, and schooling days. It all went by in a blur.



Ah yes, the infamous "trickle down" economic model. What Reagan failed to understand is that most people don't appreciate being trickled on.

Dancing on Reagan's grave?!?! No, no, I'm saving that for Fred Phelps.

I am not gleeful that Reagan is dead. But I do completely agree with Ghoulman that the revisionist fiction being spouted as the history of Reagan's presidency is nauseating at best.

Hell? No thanks. I'd rather come back here. It's more interesting.

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Wednesday, June 9, 2004 9:22 AM

HANOVERFIST


Wow, what a bunch of @ssholes many of you have turned out to be. I have to say that I am incredibly disappointed with how this thread started and turned nasty on a forum that I (until now) used to enjoy.

I am at a loss for words right now. I am not a Reagan backer and do not think he was the best president ever, but he deserves better than this. People like DBELL46 gloating about how people cheered when our president was almost killed. Jack@sses like THOREAU talking about dancing on people's graves. You are no better than the people you are criticizing. Worse, as a matter of fact.

This disgusting thread will mark my leaving this forum and will make me question whether or not I am even interested in calling myself a 'browncoat'. I love Firefly, but too many of you people suck. Go to hell.

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Wednesday, June 9, 2004 9:42 AM

GHOULMAN


^^^ don't let the door hit your rightous ass on the way out.

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Wednesday, June 9, 2004 9:44 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Umm, I LIVED through the Reagan years. I don't need anyone to tell me about it, and I'm pretty damn good at taking the spin out of the news.

What I SAW was the rich getting richer, "Star Wars", Iran-Contra, an exploding stock market, a triumph of speculation over investment while big companies gobbled up little companies. Sure, the economy improved under Reagan, but he did it the good old-fashioned way- by massive deficit spending. (He accumulated more deficit than all previous Presidents combined.)

Fortunately for us, Reagan was smart enough to take Gorbachev up on his offer of mutual disarament. Unfortunately, the process was not completed so we still have thousands of warheads hanging about. And now that we dominate the world, have we seen a peace dividend in the form of -oh, say- universal health insurance? Have we created a kinder, gentler nation? A better world?

The legacy of Ronald Reagan still lives with us. When Paul O'Neill, W. Bush's former Scy of Treasury approached the administration with his concerns about the deficit, he was told "Reagan proved that deficits don't matter." YUP, the torch has been passed.


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Wednesday, June 9, 2004 10:19 AM

GHOULMAN


Quote:

Originally posted by thoreau:
"a fellow human being has died"

yeah, that doesn't happen every single second of every day. oh wait, yeah it does. twice, actually, as a very conservative estimate of the average.

we're really not that special.

Good point.

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Wednesday, June 9, 2004 3:20 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Actually, the other thing I remember about the time is the explosion of the Challenger.

Now, to give you an idea of how abnormal my reactions are, I wasn't really too concerned about the death of the astronauts, even if one was a civilian. After all, about 100 people managed to wrap themselves around a telephone pole (or something equally stupid) EVERY DAY that year. All I could think of was "1.5 billion dollars...." To put it in perspective, that was more than the Women, Infants, and Children's (WIC) nutrition program and Head Start COMBINED. What a waste for a publicity stunt.

So, some day when our feelings are not so raw, I'll share some gallows humor about the Challenger. heh heh heh


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Wednesday, June 9, 2004 4:00 PM

RUE


Vilavon,

You are under the mistaken impression that Bush made the US safer. Even by the admin's own measure - has the threat alert come down to, say, green? - his 'war on terror' has been a failure. And knowing what goes on to detect actual weapons on US home ground, I can tell you no one involved thinks like you do.

But that impression - that Bush has made us safer - is part of a whole cloth fabrication from the propaganda machine. After the lies (yes lies) about WMD and Iraq being in cahoots with al-Qaida, the next major lie piped directly onto your TV was: if the US didn't go into Iraq, *NOTHING* would be done about WMD.

A little history first for those who don't mind facts. First Bush said, on the record, Iraq had to declare its WMD to avoid war. But it had to be a complete declaration, mind you. So Iraq filed a massive report with the UN one day ahead of the deadline. After some castigation that it was too large a report, Bush then said, again on the record, that for Iraq to avoid war, it had to PROVE there were NO weapons (a logical impossibility, but never mind). So Iraq negotiated a return of UN inspectors who went back with a new coercive inspection protocol. (BTW Iraq never 'threw the inspectors out', the UN withdrew them due to safety concerns after the US and Britain started bombing Iraq.) As a matter of HISTORICAL fact, UN inspectors were IN Iraq, had been doing coercive inspections for weeks, and were findling diddly. They estimated it would have taken them two to three months to conclude their inspections. (If the US had waited for them, it would have run the war timetable into summer.) So then Bush said, once again undeniably on the record, that Hussein and his regime had to leave Iraq to avoid war.

Now, Iraq had filed its report, and the UN was in Iraq doing inspections. The WMD 'threat' was being addressed.

So much for the lie (that impolite word again) that 'nothing' was being done.

World-wide terrorism needs a coordinated world-wide response. Now, you CAN p*ss-off your allies, tweak your information gathering, refuse to cooperate with global financial institutions, and generally act like a loose cannon. Or you can get real and coordinate with other nations to set up monitoring systems, write laws, create information-sharing capability etc.

Which one do you believe Bush picked?

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Thursday, June 10, 2004 8:49 AM

THOREAU


Quote:

Originally posted by kalathena:
Dancing on Reagan's grave?!?! No, no, I'm saving that for Fred Phelps.



a fellow Topekan?

t

Jayne: "These are stone killers, little man. They ain't cuddly like me."

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Thursday, June 10, 2004 9:50 AM

HKCAVALIER


Hey Rue,

What gets me is why the United States of America--arguably the richest, most successful, mightiest, most all-over influencial nation the world has ever seen, culturally, militarily, economically, we are it--why do we continually have to make up this grandiose crap about ourselves? We're like a fifty-foot titan with short-man's disease.

Is it all a crazy conspiracy to make us feel weak and scared and in constant danger, so the overlords can continue their protection racket unabated? Why in the world do we buy into it? Why is America so damn scared? We have everything! What do we, as a nation, as a people, have to be so scared of? What have we got to lose? No one is a threat to this country, not even George W. Bush, not in the long run. We survived Reagan, bounced back after just one democratic administration. We'll bounce back from this. Some terrorists kill 3000 people in New York and we bomb two whole countries all to hell without breaking a sweat, look around at the rest of the world saying, "Give me a reason..."

I just don't get it.

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

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Tuesday, June 15, 2004 5:44 PM

RUE


HKCavalier,

Sorry to bump this up at such a late date.

"fifty-foot titan with short-man's disease"

HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA .... (gasp) .... HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA Ha Ha Ha ha ha hee hee hee hee (snark) hee hee hee hee ...

Why DOES the US get so agitated?

When I saw the towers go down I thought - Yes, of course it's horrific, but it's not going to derail the entire US. I even said so to my co-workers.

Boy was I wrong.

Only I saw the derailing as deliberate. Day by day, speech by speech, Bush's rhetoric amped-up until the country was ready for war. Within two weeks the entire world was 'either with the US or with the terrorists'. Now, how that got swallowed without a peep I truly can't fathom. It sounds like a recipe for dictatorship.

People I work with suggest Bush intentionally scares people to create an unthinking, easily manipulated population. Or, another angle I've heard - to unify a country behind you, fight an enemy. Or another suggestion - the neocons were determined to pounce on Iraq, and 9/11 was a handy excuse. And, as they were running the country, they had the wherewithal. They all sound plausible to me. In any case, the common perception among people I know is that US 'outrage' wasn't/isn't entirely spontaneous, that it was/is fostered for political gain. (Then there is the unfortunate tendency of people in the US to want to 'kick butt'- any butt - even at the risk of kicking their own.)

I do think some terrorism is a bona fide threat and not to be ignored.

There are people for whom this really is a war of cultures. But sometimes terrorism is a reaction to overwhelming injustice. Address the injustice and the terrorism loses support. There is also legitimate political opposition. But with Bush's approach, all countries have the excuse they need to suppress everybody with any disagreement.

The trick I think is to get *legitimate* global anti-terrorism going to address global threats.

As to why people get so agitated about individuals like Reagan, Bush, and Bush the Lesser etc. I understand the long view. I try to remind myself of it. But I, and I guess others, react to personal circumstances.

For example, as I was struggling my way through college, I went to get food stamps. I was TOLD by the person reviewing my application that there was no way I could be working the (minimum-wage) jobs I was working, paying rent, paying tuition etc and not be receiving substantial $ off the books. My application was denied w/out appeal. That was at the time Reagan was castigating 'welfare queens' and cutting Federal aid programs. It was at the same time that I also couldn't get my government scholarship (a scholarship I earned via high exam placement) b/c there was a hold on the funds. You wouldn't believe how difficult it made things. I almost didn't make it through college. And the difficulty of doing what I did was THE single deterrent going on to graduate or medical school. The political whims of those in office were inflicted on my life. I have sympathy when I see it happen to others. That's the source of my agitation. Maybe that's what agitates other people as well.

As for is there a serious threat to the US - as was pointed out to me by someone much smarter, the biggest threat to the US is China. Before you know it, they'll be driving the world economy. The US will get left in the dust.

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Wednesday, June 16, 2004 10:25 AM

VILAVON


Thanks for setting me straight. You're right. I'm wrong. Simple as that.
Ain't fiction great?
P.S. How many terrorist attacks on U.S. soil have there been since Bush's failed war on terror?

Vilavon AKA Claude

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Thursday, June 17, 2004 3:28 PM

RUE


Vilavon,

I predict we'll have a major attack on US soil within 18 months. The US is not better prepared and there are a lot more people truly determined to hurt the country. I can afford to wait to prove you wrong.

Care to make it interesting?

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Saturday, June 19, 2004 8:32 AM

VILAVON


I have two nephews "over there" as they say. That's interesting enough for me.

Vilavon AKA Claude

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Saturday, June 19, 2004 3:28 PM

RUE


Then I truly sympathize. It must be stressful.

I would like to know your reasons for saying the US is safer.

These are my opinions:

Probably the biggest supporter of *international terrorism* against the US is al Qaeda. While the US is busy in Iraq, al Qaeda is regrouping in Afghanistan.

I think there are two levels of threat to the US on US soil:

1) the very sophisticated, large-scale, horrific type that take resources, know-how, and international access. 9/11 was on that scale, and biological, chemical, or nuclear ('dirty bomb') threats are there as well. That's the kind of action al Qaeda would need to be involved in to get off the ground.

2) the McVeigh/Nichols scale. While horrific in its own right, it's a single instance, uses readily available materials and knowledge, and doesn't require complicated international travel to get everyone together. That's the kind of attack an individual terrorist cell could organize on their own without much trouble.

Abu Ghraib I believe made moderates into extremists, and extremmists into suicidal terrorists. There are credible intelligence reports it created tens of thousands more potential global terrorists.

The US hasn't hardened its defences against this kind of attack.

I think that it takes about 20 months or so to put a small-scale attack in place. Counting from Abu Ghraib, that puts it 18 months from now.

However, that doesn't preclude a more complicated, debilitating attack from happening later.


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Monday, June 21, 2004 9:39 AM

JASONZZZ



hmmm... how's this possible:

1. you are a clairvoyant. Superb! do you read the Tarot as well?

2. you have insider information. You've better call the FBI and let them know. If you won't, I will.

3. you are some kind of major fruitcake, randomly thinking up conspiracy crap and imagining up political intrigue where there is none.

4. you like to randomly pull figures out of your ass and call it your prediction of the week.


Quote:

Originally posted by rue:
Vilavon,

I predict we'll have a major attack on US soil within 18 months. The US is not better prepared and there are a lot more people truly determined to hurt the country. I can afford to wait to prove you wrong.

Care to make it interesting?





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Monday, June 21, 2004 9:48 AM

JCOBB


Quote:

Originally posted by Ghoulman:
^^^ don't let the door hit your rightous ass on the way out.



Good *insert diety here* I really think you have serious problems. You are such a zealot.

Its funny, there is very little middle ground, (apparently) here. Its either white or black with the posters here, it seems.

I think that very quote makes you appear more self-righteous and arrogant then he ever sounded. He's right, its sickening to hear about people dancing on graves. Sure, death is common, but it doesn't mean that one can glorify in the tragedy of others. I don't gloat when I hear about the deaths of terrorists, or when an Iraqi is killed. I don't glorify in the death of a murderer, and I try my best not to wish death upon my enemies.

Some of the postings here are downright disturbing.

(Note this isn't directed entirely at Ghoulman.)



I don't care, I'm still free.

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Monday, June 21, 2004 10:27 AM

BARNSTORMER


Quote:

Originally posted by JCobb:
Quote:

Originally posted by Ghoulman:
^^^ don't let the door hit your rightous ass on the way out.



Good *insert diety here* I really think you have serious problems. You are such a zealot.

Its funny, there is very little middle ground, (apparently) here. Its either white or black with the posters here, it seems.

I think that very quote makes you appear more self-righteous and arrogant then he ever sounded. He's right, its sickening to hear about people dancing on graves. Sure, death is common, but it doesn't mean that one can glorify in the tragedy of others. I don't gloat when I hear about the deaths of terrorists, or when an Iraqi is killed. I don't glorify in the death of a murderer, and I try my best not to wish death upon my enemies.

Some of the postings here are downright disturbing.

(Note this isn't directed entirely at Ghoulman.)



I don't care, I'm still free.




I have to agree with JCobb on this.

Although I have to admit that Ghoulmans posts seem more like just plain "American bashing" to me rather than real, informed social commentary on americans in general.

I'm sorry he feels that way, but maybe he should just try to get over it. All this hate will just raise his blood pressure.

We would'nt want that now would we?




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Tuesday, June 22, 2004 8:59 AM

VILAVON


Dear Rue,

I can't say I don't like your way of thinking. It serves Tom Clancy novels well enough. I am an Air Force vet myself and find little knowledge and much "opinion" in your postings.
Foremost, Abu Ghraib (or however you spell it) is being taken care of in the proper manner. I think Saddam would be handing out medals to these goobers instead of punishment, as the U.S. military is doing.
I really don't need your sympathy. I get by just fine by knowing that my nephews, Army and Marine, were well trained and accepting of the idea that the military isn't just a social program for college matching funds.
Try turning off CNN and dig into some real research like soldiers letters home, readily available on the internet, I am almost certain but can't say with authority. That's just how I think it should be.
Uninformed opinions are dangerous things that attack your brain. As Harlan Ellison has said "You are NOT entitled to your opinion. You ARE entitled to your informed opinion."
See? Liberals have good ideas, too!
Not shocking, though. Even a broken clock is right twice a day.
Have a nice one.

Vilavon AKA Claude

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Tuesday, June 22, 2004 6:17 PM

RUE


Vilavon,

As I said before, I can afford to wait. I put my predictions out there because checking preditions by looking at the results in the future is a TRUE test.

So I'm not going to argue about whether they are well founded or not. It's pointless. We'll find out in due time.

I wonder if anyone else has any predictions to make, on the record? C'mon folks - it's only one small harmless little limb. You just kinda wiggle forward, go out there some more ...

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Thursday, June 24, 2004 4:34 AM

VILAVON


All right here's my lil ole predictions.

I predict that in the year 2004 a man will be elected president of the United States of America.

I predict that cars will be washed mainly in the summertime and often NOT at a public car wash!!

I predict that words will continue to be spelled the weigh thae hav bin fore yeers.

I predict that people without vision for a better future will stay mired in the past on this message board, trying to yank the rest of us down with them.

Old hippies will become CEO's of big companies....Not a prediction. Sorry. That's happened already.

Don't forget to polish your crystal balls, Rue!



Vilavon AKA Claude

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Thursday, June 24, 2004 5:57 AM

BLACKOUTNIGHTS


I spent most of my teen years with this country under the leadership of Ronald Reagan. During this time, I wasn't into politics. Actually could have cared less about them.

What I remember about that time period is that I felt safe and trusted our country was in good hands. The economy was good [that means if you wanted to work, you could find a job doing SOMETHING]. I got my first job as a bagboy, making a whole $3-and-something an hour.

I'm actually surprised there's so much bashing of his presidency.

I can't exactly say the same thing about Clinton's legacy. I think it began ok, but things were really in turmoil at the end of it. I did vote for Gore though, and would do so again if I could go back in time. [But I wouldn't this year].

To me, the federal election is nothing compared to your local elections. They're going to make the decisions that will have the most affect on our communities. Make sure you know the guys and gals on your city council and county commission, as well as your state rep's and senators.

The feds control the military and international relations. The states are our peaceful governments.

Power to the States!

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