REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

What's the deal with KPO?

POSTED BY: HKCAVALIER
UPDATED: Friday, June 7, 2013 09:26
SHORT URL:
VIEWED: 15043
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Friday, May 31, 2013 1:44 PM

MAGONSDAUGHTER


A very interesting thread.

Yes, I think HK was very rude to you Byte, but you also reacted very strongly. I felt like a button had been pushed with you. I am guessing that it was not so much the topic, but the way you were dismissed as not having a right to talk about something that set you off.

I notice that I have a very strong reaction to be dismissed myself, much worse than being disagreed with, and that goes back to how I was treated when I was young.

I'm guessing that all strong reactions, including Jongs, including HK's condemnation of the other thread, relate back to our own painful experiences.

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Saturday, June 1, 2013 3:26 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


I will read the thread (on my way out to run the dogs) and comment, if at all, privately. Just two things:

Nobody here, that I'm aware of, has EVER accused you of making things up. That's what you PERCEIVE people as saying; what I'm saying is that sometimes you PERCEIVE things differently than they are, and that's a prime example. Every human being walking this earth perceives things through their own "filter"--many have mentioned this before. We do not perceive everything accurately, and if we don't seek clarification when we MISUNDERSTAND something, it gets set in cement and it's what we BELIEVE. Even when we try to clarify things, we ALL still perceive them through a filter.

Whether Cav wants to hear what people think should be, in my opinion, up to Cav. I believe it's wrong to speak for what others want/think. JMHO.


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Saturday, June 1, 2013 2:15 PM

KPO

Sometimes you own the libs. Sometimes, the libs own you.


Quote:

Posting the thread here so that discussion can continue about the other MORE IMPORTANT subject. People can decide what they think of the HK vs. Me thing on their own, but I'd prefer not to hear the conclusions, and I'm sure HK feels the same way. http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?bid=18&tid=53888

I would however appreciate it if people would stop accusing me of making shit up.



Wow, that was a sad thread. For several reasons. I don't think you were reacting to nothing there Byte, HK to me was clearly out of line - on some specifics as well as in his general tone. Having said that, hearing about his history, one can understand it. But most people in your position would have felt 'talked down to' and that they were being told to 'shut up'.

A general observation about HK:

1. He is liked and respected on this board, and for good reason. By me included.

2. He is quite loose with his impassioned moral judgement.

3. I don't know if he has a reverse gear. If he does, I don't think he uses it enough.

It's not personal. It's just war.

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Saturday, June 1, 2013 10:36 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


"What a load of crap! Just like everyone else here, I respond to those I want to, when I want to. If you're not getting a response...well that's just too damn bad. Grow up."

Monday, May 13, 2013 8:15:33 AM --- May 13, 2013 1:13:52 PM period of intensive posting

Monday, May 13, 2013 3:52:02 PM --- single post

Monday, May 13, 2013 7:11:52 PM --- single post



Tuesday, May 14, 2013 5:25:33 AM --- Tuesday, May 14, 2013 7:19:51 AM period of intensive posting

Tuesday, May 14, 2013 11:48:13 AM --- single post

Tuesday, May 14, 2013 12:02:23 PM --- Tuesday, May 14, 2013 12:23:04 PM period of intensive posting

Tuesday, May 14, 2013 6:11:24 PM --- single post


Wednesday, May 15, 2013 3:49:54 AM --- Wednesday, May 15, 2013 5:32:20 AM period of intensive posting

Wednesday, May 15, 2013 11:15:02 AM --- Wednesday, May 15, 2013 12:01:31 PM period of intensive posting


Friday, May 17, 2013 4:19:40 PM --- Friday, May 17, 2013 4:50:24 PM period of intensive posting



Saturday, May 18, 2013 9:01:55 AM --- single post



Monday, May 13, 2013 8:15:33 AM

Obamacare: Taxpayers Must Report Personal Health ID Info to IRS

replied to self


Monday, May 13, 2013 8:19 AM

Obama: $1 trillion in Obamacare spending is historic 'tax cut'

relied to signym with snark, then bailed


Monday, May 13, 2013 8:23:55 AM

Susan Rice Honored With 'Great American' Award Night Before Benghazi Hearing

replied to self


Monday, May 13, 2013 8:27:22 AM

Boston Bombers’ Mosque Recommended Men Beat Their Wives

replied to lil' rappy, then bailed


Monday, May 13, 2013 8:33:28 AM

Obama Nominates Fox to Guard Chicken Coop

replied to signym, then bailed


Monday, May 13, 2013 8:37:05 AM

Dem Congresswoman: Obamacare Will Improve Marriages


Monday, May 13, 2013 8:43:03 AM

9.5 Million People Have Left the Workforce Under Obama

replied to self - twice!


Monday, May 13, 2013 9:06:09 AM

'Mounting evidence' Boston bombers were behind gruesome 2011 murders

replied to rouka with reiteration of point, then bailed from active discussion of multiple posters


Monday, May 13, 2013 9:13:01 AM

Navy Seal Team VI Families To Reveal Government’s Culpability In Death Of Their Sons In Fatal Helicopter Crash In Afghanistan


Monday, May 13, 2013 9:33:57 AM

10 crazy things the IRS asked Tea Party groups

replied to self twice, then bailed whne actual discussion between posters ensued


Monday, May 13, 2013 9:38:01 AM

Top Obama Official’s Brother Is President Of CBS News, May Drop Reporter Over Benghazi Coverage


Monday, May 13, 2013 9:42:46 AM

Report: Energy Dept. Spent $11 Million Per Green Job

replied to self twice, lil' rappy once


Monday, May 13, 2013 9:48:23 AM

Hip-Hop Artist Lauryn Hill Blames Slavery for Tax Evasion

replied to lil'rappy, then bailed


Monday, May 13, 2013 10:09:15 AM

Principal suspends teen for Instagramming her mug shot


Monday, May 13, 2013 10:14:16 AM

Harford County Public Schools Employee Stephanie Mikles Indicted On Deviant Sex Charges

replied to kiki withn offensive snark, then bailed


Monday, May 13, 2013 10:23:44 AM

Dr. Gosnell found guilty on three counts of first-degree murder

replied to lil' rappy, bailed from further active discussion


Monday, May 13, 2013 10:33:15 AM

Walters announces her retirement on 'The View'


Monday, May 13, 2013 10:49:56 AM

Detroit - emergency manager says city "clearly-insolvent"

replied to self


Monday, May 13, 2013 11:02:00 AM

U.N. says eating insects will fight obesity


Monday, May 13, 2013 12:01:15 PM

Economy's 'Soft Patch' Is Just More Of The Same


Monday, May 13, 2013 12:23:49 PM

NY Times Maureen Dowd throws Hillary and DC Dems under the bus


Monday, May 13, 2013 12:54:51 PM

9.5 Million People Have Left the Workforce Under Obama

replied to self


Monday, May 13, 2013 1:01:29 PM

Top Obama Official’s Brother Is President Of CBS News, May Drop Reporter Over Benghazi Coverage


Monday, May 13, 2013 1:13:52 PM

Another new Obama scandal today

in a duet with lil'rappy, bailed when reaverfan joined


Monday, May 13, 2013 3:52:02 PM

Obama Aide On Syria's Assad: 'If He Drops Sarin On His Own People, What’s That Got Do Do With Us?'

bailed when the discussion got specific


Monday, May 13, 2013 7:11:52 PM

Brokaw: 'You Cannot Explain Away Susan Rice's Performance on Those Sunday Talk Shows'

apparently can only 'discuss' this with lil' rappy, despite many posts to the thread


Tuesday, May 14, 2013 5:25:33 AM

'Top Obama Administration Officials Increasingly See Themselves As Above The Law'


Tuesday, May 14, 2013 5:29:06 AM

Insurers predict 100%-400% Obamacare rate explosion

replied to reaverfan with nonsense


Tuesday, May 14, 2013 5:37:47 AM

Outrage at Syrian rebel shown 'eating soldier's heart'

jongsie apparently unable to participate in active discussion


Tuesday, May 14, 2013 5:49:46 AM

19 Wounded In Mother's Day Second Line Shooting

jongsie apparently unable to participate in active discussion


Tuesday, May 14, 2013 5:56:25 AM

Violent criminals released by ICE if they are ‘Obama Dreamers’
jongsie apparently unable to address reply


Tuesday, May 14, 2013 6:54:12 AM

Saudi man with pressure cooker due in Michigan court

jongsie apparently unable to participate in active discussion


Tuesday, May 14, 2013 7:06:28 AM

Chinese Creating New Auto Niche Within Detroit


Tuesday, May 14, 2013 7:19:51 AM

Rich Manhattan moms hire handicapped tour guides so kids can cut lines at Disney World

jongsie apparently unable to participate in active discussion


Tuesday, May 14, 2013 11:48:13 AM

Obama Administration Under Siege From 3 Huge Scandals: Here’s Why It Could All Come Crashing Down


Tuesday, May 14, 2013 11:53:23 AM

Attorney General Holder recused himself from media subpoena

kissies to lil' rappy


Tuesday, May 14, 2013 11:56:53 AM

Top Dem calls for public testimony on Benghazi


Tuesday, May 14, 2013 12:02:23 PM

GOP governors want special prosecutor in IRS case


Tuesday, May 14, 2013 12:08:10 PM

US government files morning-after pill appeal

strange cross talk


Tuesday, May 14, 2013 12:13:33 PM

Builders bulldoze big Mayan pyramid in Belize

replies to self, spouts nonsense at others


Tuesday, May 14, 2013 12:23:04 PM

Wind farms get pass on eagle deaths

replies to self, to lil rappy w/ a ittle love note, spouts nonsense and bails during real discussion


Tuesday, May 14, 2013 6:11:24 PM

Angelina Jolie, a brave woman


Wednesday, May 15, 2013 3:49:54 AM

What White House Doesn’t Know Will Shock You


Wednesday, May 15, 2013 3:52:46 AM

The IRS wants YOU — to share everything

yet another exchange of billets doux between jongsie and lil' rappy


Wednesday, May 15, 2013 4:00:48 AM

Eight Months Too Late, The Media See The Real Obama


Wednesday, May 15, 2013 4:06:08 AM

D.C. Turns On Obama

jongsie spouts nonsense in reply to reaverfan, lil'b rappy covers jongsie's bare - uh - ass


Wednesday, May 15, 2013 4:15:06 AM

Battles in Pakistan tribal area displace thousands


Wednesday, May 15, 2013 4:26:04 AM

City sues ‘Robin Hood’ group over parking meter payments

where pn proves he's too crazy for jongsie to match!


Wednesday, May 15, 2013 4:39:00 AM

Bernstein Joins Woodward In Turning On Obama

a menage a trois between jongsie, lil' rappy and 'hero', who collectively freeze PN out of his attempt to join the crazy fest


Wednesday, May 15, 2013 5:25:46 AM

Metro police won't provide security for First Lady's upcoming visit


Wednesday, May 15, 2013 5:32:20 AM

Obama, the uninterested president


Wednesday, May 15, 2013 11:15:02 AM

Charlie Rangel on Obama's Handling of AP Scandal - No One Believes He's Given 'Sufficient Answers'

where it looks like lil' rappy's charms have worn off, and his response went unanswered


Wednesday, May 15, 2013 11:32:05 AM

Scarborough BLASTS David Axelrod Over AP NEWS

oh dear, same thing


Wednesday, May 15, 2013 11:46:11 AM

Holder orders criminal investigation of IRS at Congressional hearing today

and again, leaving lil' rappy so desperate he replies to - himself


Wednesday, May 15, 2013 12:01:31 PM

But What's It All For?

looks like they kissed and made up, tho the conversation wasn't long, I'm sure it was sweet


Friday, May 17, 2013 4:19:40 PM

IRS Sued For Improperly Seizing The Medical Records Of 10 Million Americans


Friday, May 17, 2013 4:50:24 PM

NFL Player Instagrams Himself Peeing on IRS Building


Saturday, May 18, 2013 9:01:55 AM

Obama’s Defenders: He’s Not Corrupt, Just Dishonest and Incompetent

jongsie goes awol





I looks like jongsie was SO interested in real world events DISCUSSION he failed to discuss his posts.

ENJOY YOUR NEXT FOUR YEARS!

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA - HERE'S LAUGHING AT YOU KID!

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Sunday, June 2, 2013 6:50 AM

HKCAVALIER


Folks may find the analogy to be OMG OVER-THE-TOP RIDONKULOUS but seems to me we've got a RWED model of the psychological origins of terrorism. In that light, Jongs' posting spree might be best understood as blowback. Jongs' and the folks on the right in general are considered to be deserving of whatever they get (rhetorically speaking, of course) because they're fundamentally bad people. Not unlike the prevailing attitude of our country toward the Muslim world. And just as we have obnoxious Americans claiming the moral high ground simply because our actions in the Middle East are "not as bad as the terrorists," we have folks here defending very obnoxious behavior because "Jongs is worse!"

There have been considerably fewer right leaning voices on this board than left for quite some time now. It's down to about 3, with a rotating forth position that's mostly vacant. With so few of them, their inferior weaponry (in this case, logic and evidence) becomes quite obvious to everyone here. So, in thread after thread, the left dominate with their Shock & Awe humiliation, over and over and over again. (Please note: I'm not saying that the righties on this board are sweet as pie, only that they are continually outgunned.) Jongsstraw and AURaptor are generally considered to be jokes by the left. And yet the lefties gleefully (rhetorically) carpet bomb them every chance they get. Some lefties never miss an opportunity to make the right feel small. Of course, you guys think it's all their own fault for not bringing sufficient logic and reason, but the fact remains that as people you're humiliating (or seeking to humiliate) them in a forever war of domination. The right are in a no-win situation on the board, and, at the present moment, a no-win situation in national politics.

So then what happens? Jongs becomes a social suicide bomber. And KPO starts a thread that amounts to "Why do they hate us?"

KPO, be assured, I will be thinking about your observation that I am too "loose" with my "impassioned moral judgment." My own (very self serving, to be sure) observation says I only get so upset rarely. But in the last year or more, my desire to post on the board has greatly decreased, so it tends to take me getting more upset to even posts, so you may have a very different perception of my presence here. I'll think about it and thank you for the feedback.

Sometimes I think I see deeply into a situation and the implications disturb me tremendously. So, I make my case, say my piece. Because to me, political realities always find their origins in individual psychology and conduct. "An eye for an eye" is an ultimately self-annihilating creed, whether it's folks trading insults on an internet forum, or folks trading gunfire in a war zone. The difference between Signy's mercilessness toward AURaptor and the mercilessness of our occupation of the Middle East seems to be a matter of degree rather than kind--a very huge degree, to be sure, but the two exist on a continuum. If we look deeply enough, the one may shed light on the other.

Ultimately, it seems to me that the board is only going to become more civil again if we ALL look inward and find it in our natures to be more kind and more inclusive, not more righteous and superior.


HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

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Sunday, June 2, 2013 6:59 AM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


Just want to briefly reply - I'm not sure why SignyM gets tagged with this, since it's moi.

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Sunday, June 2, 2013 7:06 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them. SECOND: I am so very sorry I libelled you by labelling you a Russian Troll. I apologize for this. http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?bid=18&tid=64646&p=2


Quote:

Jongs' and the folks on the right in general are considered to be deserving of whatever they get (rhetorically speaking, of course) because they're fundamentally bad people
Jongss and the people on the right deserve whatever they get because they started it. That might be a very kindergartenish way of looking at things, but the right wing started cranking up the crazy during Bill Clinton's Presidency, when the GOP courted the rightwing religious and tried to gin up "scandal" after "scandal" over all kinds of irrelvent stuff: Vince Foster, filegate, Monicagate, pardongate. Did you know that the GOP spent five times more money investigating Bill Clinton's cigar habits than they did investigating 9-11?

So, how to respond? I've been the "reasonable talk" route with them and it doesn't work. And they wallow in controversy; it makes them feel like martyrs to the cause. For me, the best response is to ignore them. If other choose different routes-- oh well. Not effective in my view, but being nice and being reasonable does not make things better. But "they" could stop thsi in a heartbeat, if they so chose, by doing a fe simple things:

READING what other people post, instead of responding to some fantasy that Limbauhj, Beck, or whomever have planted in their heads

RESPONDING TO the actual posted thread with comments that are directly on-point.

This is a place for conversation, not to grab a megaphone and pass on the latest screed. If you are not able to CONVERSE... which includes listening... then you have no business being here. IMHO.

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Sunday, June 2, 2013 7:06 AM

HKCAVALIER


I'd say it's the both of yous.

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

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Sunday, June 2, 2013 7:13 AM

HKCAVALIER


Hey Signy,

How is "because they started it" different from "because they're bad people?" After all, who would start such an unjust and malicious campaign but bad people? You judge them as people and hide behind correlation as if it's causality. The right, no doubt, would call their attack on Bill Clinton retaliation for something or other as well. Revenge is fundamentally a distortion of causality. It's bogus, no matter who gets into it.

You say ignoring them is the best policy. And I'd say that corresponds on the geopolitical stage with healthy isolationism. Let the right police themselves. They certainly don't pose an imminent threat to you or me, no? :)

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

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Sunday, June 2, 2013 7:19 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them. SECOND: I am so very sorry I libelled you by labelling you a Russian Troll. I apologize for this. http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?bid=18&tid=64646&p=2


HKC, I've already asked for a specifc explanation of your (plural) issues. On the off chnace that it got buried in the multiple posts, I'll ask for it again, but this is the last time. Outrage, no matter how deeply felt, is not an explanation. Tell me what your moral, legal, logical or experiential assumptions are behind your outrage. But it's RAPE! is not an explanation, because I will just counter with But it's GENOCIDE!. So there you have it. I'll wait for your reply, but may not be able to respond until next weekend.

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Sunday, June 2, 2013 7:22 AM

HKCAVALIER


Hey Signy,

Certainly didn't mean to dodge any question of yours. I'm sorry, I don't understand what you're asking.

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

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Sunday, June 2, 2013 7:24 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them. SECOND: I am so very sorry I libelled you by labelling you a Russian Troll. I apologize for this. http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?bid=18&tid=64646&p=2


They DO pose a threat to you and me, HKC, just like the brownshirt supporters posed a threat to all defectives, socialists, gypsies, and Jews. This is simply not the forum to address those real-life threats. Ignoring them is the best response IMHO because it is the most effective response for this process. Other arenas deserve other responses.

Also, RE: My question. Oh dear, there really IS a lack of communicatin isn't there?? This will take more of an explanation than I have time for. Yanno, I'm gonna HAVE to get off this PC, my family is really pissed at me and feeling very neglected.

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Sunday, June 2, 2013 7:28 AM

HKCAVALIER


Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:
They DO pose a threat to you and me, HKC, just like the brownshirt supporters posed a threat to all defectives, socialists, gypsies, and Jews.

How is that argument different from Byte's "We're all to blame for torture because we pay taxes?"

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

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Sunday, June 2, 2013 7:30 AM

HKCAVALIER


Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:
Yanno, I'm gonna HAVE to get off this PC, my family is really pissed at me and feeling very neglected.

In the words of the immortal Dubya: "Put food on your family!" This conversation can wait. :)

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

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Sunday, June 2, 2013 7:41 AM

MAL4PREZ


(Replying to posts a ways up about Jongs and Rappy etc)

HKC,

It's been explained several times, so I'm not sure what's the use, but I'll try again anyway...

The issue is not that they are bad people. It is not about they disagree with anyone (really this has been explained 1000 1000 times!) The issue is that they are incapable and even dead set against reasonable conversation. You've got the terrorism analogy completely backward. The pent up frustration comes from those of us who've seen our attempts at rational discussion derailed again and again by RWAs who want nothing but to make themselves the center of attention.

We have spent years trying to keep things on the tracks, tried to talk to them again and again, but the RWAs won't accept that. You've been long enough. You've seen all the efforts that have been made to converse with them. It fails every time. The current state of things is due to their determination to pull this place down. They drove off reasonable posters and pulled down the discourse of every who stayed.

They have been "carpet bombed" with mockery because that is all they will accept. That is all that can done with them. You don't agree? Please, try to find ONE RWED thread where Rappy or Jongs had any kind of rational exchange of more than two or three posts in length. Go on, look. Proof has been provided about Jongs lack of interest in discussing his own threads. Can you find any thing to counter that?

Jongsie's temper tantrum was not a retaliation, it was a continuation of his effort to stop any reasonable conversation from happening here. The sad thing, he has succeeded.

The only thing the actual thinking people can do to change this is to completely, 100%, always ignore the trolls. We did it once and it worked. Doesn't seem like it'll happen again though. They've taken over. :(

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Sunday, June 2, 2013 7:44 AM

BYTEMITE


I talk about paying taxes as a basis of why finger pointing doesn't do anyone any good because we're kinda all the same and also all responsible for today's social problems.

But considering someone a personal threat to yourself and your livelyhood just because they talk on the internet, go to pro-gun rallies, and vote for right wing candidates... This board is all just talking, as far as I'm concerned. The threats are the people who feed the propaganda machine and stir things up and set the nation against itself as a smokescreen for doing whatever they want to do.

Rappy, Jongstraw, and Wulf are not a threat to us or anyone. They've never attacked any abortion clinics, or tortured anyone, or wiretapped any of us, even though they're against abortion and support waterboarding and the Patriot Act. Like most of the country, they are content to let the big issues be decided by someone other than themselves.

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Sunday, June 2, 2013 7:49 AM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


Quote:

Originally posted by HKCavalier:
I'd say it's the both of yous.

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.



I lit the hatch then walked away, I think. Haven't been home to keep up with what's going on, and at this point, will never catch up ... just gotta walk away from this one.

Well, except maybe to briefly restate something I've stated a few time already in the past - reason, patience, facts don't work with them. I've seen it consistently fail all these years though it's been tried from day 1. And there is considerable evidence that pursuing that course with them makes things worse by making them more entrenched. Insanity is doing the same thing over and expecting a different result. There are two other courses that haven't been tried with nearly the fervor as reasoned debate: social isolation and social rejection.

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Sunday, June 2, 2013 8:16 AM

HKCAVALIER


Mal4,

We've reached a truly fascinating impasse. Why is it so hard for you to admit that you think Jongs' and AURaptor are bad people? How in the world is
Quote:

The pent up frustration comes from those of us who've seen our attempts at rational discussion derailed again and again by RWAs who want nothing but to make themselves the center of attention.

and
Quote:

The current state of things is due to their determination to pull this place down. They drove off reasonable posters and pulled down the discourse of every who stayed.

and
Quote:

Jongsie's temper tantrum was not a retaliation, it was a continuation of his effort to stop any reasonable conversation from happening here.

NOT the same as saying they're bad, malicious, irrational people???

AND they may very well be bad, malicious, irrational people. If it quacks like a duck, etc. ALL THE MORE REASON not to talk to them. Yes. Ignore them. Yes. Great idea. Best idea. I'm all for it.

At this point the argument generally devolves into "But I like watching the monkey dance" or some other lame, pseudo-sadistic nya-nya-nya.

I don't disagree with your assessment of Jongs' or Raptor's contribution to the board. How come no one understands that? It's simple: I'm against demeaning people. I'm against dehumanizing people with ugly names. It makes YOU a bully. A bully who only bullies bad people who "deserve it" is still a bully.

The ugliness stops when people refuse to participate in the ugliness. It at least stops for that individual. But when a critical mass of people opt out of the childishness it does have an effect. As you noted, it's worked in the past. Why, after all these years, are we still talking about this? (I know, lame attempt to paraphrase Mal, sorry--I'm a fan.)

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

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Sunday, June 2, 2013 9:03 AM

KPO

Sometimes you own the libs. Sometimes, the libs own you.


Quote:

Folks may find the analogy to be OMG OVER-THE-TOP RIDONKULOUS but seems to me we've got a RWED model of the psychological origins of terrorism.

I actually don't think Jongs' behaviour was that bad. He was being a nuisance more than anything. The thread I started was pretty personal and combative towards him, and tbh I wouldn't say confidently myself that it was justified. But I'm glad his spamming behaviour seems to have abated, and I'm ready to make peace with him.

I'm actually with you on the amount of nastiness that gets directed at the conservatives here, and have spoken out against it myself in the past, if you can believe that. I probably would've backed you up in this thread if, well, I wasn't the subject of it. My ideal solution would be some system of tallying up insults and nastiness and then giving posters a nastiness rating, of sorts. I think people might modify their behaviour if it said next to their name how much they had insulted other posters. But unless such a bit of software is already out there ready-made, it's probably not feasible for RWED.

Quote:

Sometimes I think I see deeply into a situation and the implications disturb me tremendously. So, I make my case, say my piece.

I would say to remember that it's the good guys who can sometimes do much more damage than the bad guys. Someone will read your posts HK, and respect your clear, moral voice. But then that same person will be stunned when you turn your moral judgement very severely on them... The bottom line is that you have to be 100% sure with your insights. Give people the benefit of the doubt if you're not sure - especially good people.

Quote:

My own (very self serving, to be sure) observation says I only get so upset rarely.

Well sometimes your eloquent rants are exactly what is needed. But I get the impression that they're not always spontaneous - that they've been bubbling up inside you for a while, and when you let them loose the person you direct them at is not as guilty as the person(s) who inspired the original indignation... E.g. indulging in rape fantasies - I'm sure you didn't pull that out of the air, but it definitely does NOT apply to Byte. Sometimes, because you're passionate, I think you jump the gun.

It's not personal. It's just war.

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Sunday, June 2, 2013 11:16 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Quote:

The pent up frustration comes from those of us who've seen our attempts at rational discussion derailed again and again by RWAs who want nothing but to make themselves the center of attention. We have spent years trying to keep things on the tracks, tried to talk to them again and again, but the RWAs won't accept that.
Quote:

reason, patience, facts don't work with them. I've seen it consistently fail all these years though it's been tried from day 1. And there is considerable evidence that pursuing that course with them makes things worse by making them more entrenched. Insanity is doing the same thing over and expecting a different result. There are two other courses that haven't been tried with nearly the fervor as reasoned debate: social isolation and social rejection.

Amen...except I would say forms of "social rejection" HAVE been tried, that's part of the mockery thing, but they've only been tried by a few.

As far as
Quote:

The ugliness stops when people refuse to participate in the ugliness. It at least stops for that individual. But when a critical mass of people opt out of the childishness it does have an effect. As you noted, it's worked in the past.


Gawd, I WISH! I've learned to ignore a few of the worst, but the problem is, those I still read are so prolific, and Jongs/Geez post so MUCH bullshit, there's little room for anything else. I'm afraid I refuse to call them "bad", as I don't believe in "bad" people, only people who do bad things. But I certainly agree with "malicious" and "irrational". I just gave up pleading for civility and joined the throng, which I'm trying to do less lately. Problem is, there are few people posting EXCEPT the worst, and everyone else responds to them and their threads, rather than engaging in anything else. I wish it were possible for people not to be triggered by their nastiness, to just let it roll off our backs and discuss AROUND them, but that doesn't seem possible...
Quote:

I'm actually with you on the amount of nastiness that gets directed at the conservatives here


I find that really curious, considering the VAST amount of nastiness I read directed at liberals, and even moderates, here. It's probably not worth it, but perhaps I should keep track, as you suggested, and see if I'm misperceiving things...


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Sunday, June 2, 2013 11:46 AM

MAGONSDAUGHTER


Someone could start an insult thread, but I think you might miss some of the more cunning ploys of some posters, but it could be a start.

I don't like the insults and the dehumanising that goes on. He/She started it is no excuse. Everyone is responsible for their own behaviour. You don't have to respond like with like.

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Sunday, June 2, 2013 12:01 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


"He/She started it is no excuse."

'Who started it' is the difference between aggression and self-defense. I consider it a valid and useful distinction, as do most people I suspect.

Also, social rejection and social isolation are social tools built in to human behavior as a social species. If they can continue to rely on the self-imposed endless patience of 'liberals' and continue to exercise their social aggression on the group, what is the motivation for them to alter their socially predatory behavior?


But personally, though they're morally reprehensible people who support death, torture and destruction to enrich themselves and their group; and are socially predatory in furthering their agendas - I don't claim a moral agency in what I do. Due to my background - which I don't make much of but which nevertheless exists - I have a wellspring of rage. After years of drilling for it, they have tapped into it (tempered only by time and laziness). I hope to ensure they they enjoy all that I have for them.

They have targeted us first. I have responded in my way and targeted them. It's that simple.

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Sunday, June 2, 2013 4:03 PM

MAL4PREZ


Quote:

Originally posted by HKCavalier:
Mal4,

We've reached a truly fascinating impasse. Why is it so hard for you to admit that you think Jongs' and AURaptor are bad people?



For a savvy, thinking person you really are stuck inside your own head on this one. You have decided that you know all, and nothing I say will sway you.

How the hell do you claim to know what I think? That is damned presumptuous, and I have to say that between this and Sig's rape thing, I have lost a lot of respect that I used to have for a few posters here. If you would please pay me the respect (and thence earn mine back) of not assuming that you are omnipotent, I will explain.

I see a few possibilities.

1. The poster known as Rappy is not a real person but a sock invented by those who have been known to invent socks. This would explain oh so much about him. (I could expand on this, but I won't.) It would not make him a bad person because he would not be a real person. I don't feel bad poking him because it clearly causes him no pain. You know, because he's not real and feels no pain.

2. The Rap is a real person with some serious issues with logical thought when it comes to politics, probably due to his upbringing. Though in many other ways he is entertaining and likeable and a GOOD PERSON, and I'd sit and have a beer and talk to him about Firefly any day, I find it impossible to have a rational discussion of politics with him. I don't feel bad poking him in RWED because if it bothered him, he wouldn't try so hard to invite it. I don't believe he is a bad person and I wish him no harm, (Did you read that? Could you read it again just to be sure?) but I have absolutely no use for him when it comes to rational discussion.

Furthermore, I will counter his attempts to ruin my rational discussion by mocking him. Because, first of all, this tone of conversation started with him, and second because it doesn't hurt him. He comes back to it, again and again with apparent glee.

You seem incapable of allowing either of these options. Are you capable of seeing people as complex creatures that might be unbearable in some ways without being bad people overall? Cause that's how I think of many many people. Even the he-devil Cheney. I despise what the man has done, yes I even despise the man himself, but I wouldn't say he is a bad person (the way you seem to be painting things) or evil or belongs in hell. I'm sure he had his reasons for doing what he did. I know people like that in real life.

I believe that very very few people do bad things because they are inherently bad, therefore there are very few bad people. But I know there are people whose behavior is not acceptable. So I don't accept it.

Are you capable of recognizing these shades of gray?

As for being a bully, honey, I am real curious as to why you don't apply that term to Rappy. He's been MUCH more abusive on these boards than me. Why are you so happy to see him as some kind of victim here?

It's like the little wimpy kid turned around and punched the bully in the nose. Who do you call a "bad person" there? You gonna call the wimpy kid a bully?

Cause sorry, I don't buy the way you're selling the Rapster as some poor little victim here. If that's really what you think, you must not have been actually reading any RWED threads over the past 8 years.

And please, again, don't go presuming that you know what I think. That's just about the most insulting thing you can do.

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Sunday, June 2, 2013 4:24 PM

BYTEMITE


Interesting. Mal4Prez, I don't think I've had the awareness to observe your interactions with AuRaptor and others - other people interacting with AuRaptor tends to dominate the discussion, and I tend to not follow most of the discussions very well.

However I like what you are saying here, and it is similar to what I think about how to handle conversations with people I disagree with politically. I often make a snark now and then, though I try not to offend with my snarks.

I am not sure about the mocking, if that's the same thing as what I'm describing. I could try to consider board behaviour in the frame of both sides mocking each other, without malice. However, I'm not sure that making that assumption or acting on it is a good precedent, though you might truly have no malice to offer.

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Sunday, June 2, 2013 4:32 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Furthermore, I will counter his attempts to ruin my rational discussion by mocking him. Because, first of all, this tone of conversation started with him, and second because it doesn't hurt him. He comes back to it, again and again with apparent glee.





As I've pointed out time and time again, our best weapon against zealotry and fundamentalism is mockery and ridicule. Wait - our TWO best weapons are mockery, ridicule, and - hold on - our THREE best weapons are...

Honestly, I didn't expect this sort of Spanish Inquisition!








"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence [sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero

"I was wrong" - Hero, 2012

Mitt Romney, introducing his running mate: "Join me in welcoming the next President of the United States, Paul Ryan!"

Rappy's response? "You're lying, gullible ( believing in some BS you heard on msnbc ) or hard of hearing."

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Sunday, June 2, 2013 4:43 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Posted by ByteMite:

I often make a snark now and then, though I try not to offend with my snarks.




I gave up the pretense long ago, because no matter what you say, someone will get offended by it. I cannot live in fear of offending the easily offended.



"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence [sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero

"I was wrong" - Hero, 2012

Mitt Romney, introducing his running mate: "Join me in welcoming the next President of the United States, Paul Ryan!"

Rappy's response? "You're lying, gullible ( believing in some BS you heard on msnbc ) or hard of hearing."

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Sunday, June 2, 2013 4:43 PM

MAGONSDAUGHTER


Quote:


'Who started it' is the difference between aggression and self-defense. I consider it a valid and useful distinction, as do most people I suspect.


Interesting as I generally have an issue with how self defense is often defied in the US. I am surprised that there are places where killing someone is justifiable because they have come to steal your widescreen tv.

Nevertheless I don't see these actions as self defense, but revenge or vengance and I think there is a difference. Revenge just creates cycles of abusive behaviour with no one taking responsibility, because everyone else claims the other started it or does more of it. The only way out of the cycle is to not play the game by the abuser's rules.

Each of us here chooses how we respond and to what we respond to. At any time you or I can walk away and not come back if we don't like the tone/content of this board, or if it triggers stuff in us that is painful.

Or we can choose to ignore certain posters or topics or posts that we think might be fruitful. Or we can choose to post to unreasonable posts in a reasonable manner, or with as much reason we can muster.

I can honestly say when the threads descend into bickering 'you idiot' 'no, you are' I just scroll past and don't read.



Quote:

Also, social rejection and social isolation are social tools built in to human behavior as a social species. If they can continue to rely on the self-imposed endless patience of 'liberals' and continue to exercise their social aggression on the group, what is the motivation for them to alter their socially predatory behavior?


There is no evidence that responding with similar behaviour changes anyones behaviour. There is evidence that it will in fact escalate poor behaviour. On the other hand, its hard to continue to be a bastard if others are being reasonable. Please note that I say 'hard' and not impossible.


Quote:

But personally, though they're morally reprehensible people who support death, torture and destruction to enrich themselves and their group; and are socially predatory in furthering their agendas - I don't claim a moral agency in what I do. Due to my background - which I don't make much of but which nevertheless exists - I have a wellspring of rage. After years of drilling for it, they have tapped into it (tempered only by time and laziness). I hope to ensure they they enjoy all that I have for them.

They have targeted us first. I have responded in my way and targeted them. It's that simple.



And there lies the excuses of those who also use torture, death and destruction. "Because they did it first" It's the beginning of the end when reasonable people start to think this way.

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Sunday, June 2, 2013 5:10 PM

MAL4PREZ


Quote:

Originally posted by BYTEMITE:
Interesting. Mal4Prez, I don't think I've had the awareness to observe your interactions with AuRaptor and others - other people interacting with AuRaptor tends to dominate the discussion, and I tend to not follow most of the discussions very well.

However I like what you are saying here, and it is similar to what I think about how to handle conversations with people I disagree with politically. I often make a snark now and then, though I try not to offend with my snarks.

I am not sure about the mocking, if that's the same thing as what I'm describing. I could try to consider board behaviour in the frame of both sides mocking each other, without malice. However, I'm not sure that making that assumption or acting on it is a good precedent, though you might truly have no malice to offer.



OK, that's something like what I'm trying to express. If I thought I was actually hurting Rappy, I would never poke him like I do now and then.

If I may be so bold, I say things to you now and then that I know you do not like. The difference is, I believe 100% that you are real and the things you feel are real, and I am very much aware of the effect my posts might have on you. You may get a little... shall we say erratic?... at times, but that is real and understandable and it's what you are feeling and I would never insult you for it. I try to present alternate takes on situations that I think might help you. I try to do it honestly and gently.

Wulfie is another though very different example. This is a person I don't like and probably never will. There's likely not a thing that Wulf and I would enjoy talking to each other about. (I could be wrong.) But I see reality in his posts, a real person with reasons for what he's saying, and I try to be careful not to dig too deep when I reply to him. I think I could do harm there.

Rappy? No. I don't see that anything anyone says here ever does him harm. This, more than anything, convinces me that he is unreal. He's either an intentional invention or a real person with some bizarre partitioning of his brain that makes him untouchable.

Did you ever notice that the mocking headed his way is generic and impersonal? What do we really know about him, and what would we say to really hurt him if that's what we were after? For all the 1000s of posts he's made here, I still have no good feel for who he is as a human being. If I wanted to actually hurt him (which i don't) I wouldn't know what to say.

Really, there's some seriously lack of reality about him. I admit, it's a little fascinating. He's like a puzzle. Extra annoying because I can't figure it out.

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Sunday, June 2, 2013 5:12 PM

MAL4PREZ


Quote:

Originally posted by Magonsdaughter:
There is no evidence that responding with similar behaviour changes anyones behaviour. There is evidence that it will in fact escalate poor behaviour. On the other hand, its hard to continue to be a bastard if others are being reasonable. Please note that I say 'hard' and not impossible.



Can't disagree with any of this.

I add the caveat that this is the internet, where escalation of bad behavior is easier times 10, and the continuing to be a bastard thing is easier times 100.


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Sunday, June 2, 2013 6:44 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


"There is no evidence that responding with similar behaviour changes anyones behaviour."

There is. Some time ago a number of us pointedly ignored lil' rappy for weeks at a time. He actually moderated his posts for the better to gain a response from people. That was an exercise of one of the options: social isolation. And it worked.

OTOH, having been on the board from the very beginning, I've seen probably thousands of person-hours if not tens of thousands of person-hours wasted every year on these posters. Of reasoned, factual, documented and validated argument about any number of topics: poverty and death. Muslims. wiretapping. the death penalty. birth control. abortion. Bush's magical shrinking economy and magical ballooning deficit. Iraq's magical disappearing WMDs. gun control. human rights. global warming. health care. drugs. homosexuality. ... you name it, we've been there, done that as a general group of people on a website, many many times over. After all those facts, and all that reason, and all that patience by all those people trying to rationally discuss the topics - do YOU detect any change in the behavior of our rightards? If anything, they're worse.

Let's take a look at our little jongsie specifically. What was it that ticked him off? It, according to him, was Nikki's posts. So, did Niki post snark? No. Did she call him or anyone names? no. Did she flood the board? no. Is she willing to discuss anything she posts with anyone who has something reasonable to say? yes. All she did - sans snark, sans name-calling, sans partisanship, sans trolling - was post things she was interested in in the hopes of sparking a conversation.

That's what set our little jongsie into his widdle tantwum - was a poster posting things they were interested in in the hopes of having a discussion.

Oh the horror, the horror. How COULD she do THAT to him? No WONDER he went off the deep end. She deserved it. Serves her right.

So, in the midst of all this, SignyM very patiently, consistently, replied to many of Jongie's posts with a brief topical reply and the end-line: please discuss. And what did Jongsie do? Do I need to repost it again, or do you remember the vile attack he launched on the only person who was treating him like a reasonable person at the time?

And what did SignyM do to deserve that? Well, she replied reasonably and asked for discussion on topics that HE posted and was presumably interested in discussing. I have to say, she was almost as bad as Nikki in provoking that poor widdle man into such a fit. She should hang her head in shame.



I've had it with them. They launch an attack, and if I'm around I guarantee I will escalate right back. And no, it's not a moral stand. I'm not basing it on how 'evil' they are (though they are all morally bankrupt but too cowardly to do anything to anyone except by proxy). This is what I choose because I deeply loathe them and everything they do.



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Sunday, June 2, 2013 8:48 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them. SECOND: I am so very sorry I libelled you by labelling you a Russian Troll. I apologize for this. http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?bid=18&tid=64646&p=2


Quote:

There is no evidence that responding with similar behaviour changes anyones behaviour.
Actually, there is. There is a game theory tournament in Toronto every ten years or so. A number of years ago, they had computer tournament of the Prisoner's Dilemma. Computer and game theorists from all over N America entered their programs into the fray, for several hundred rounds against the other competitors, then on to the playoffs. The program that won was not at all complicated, it was just a few lines of code and it was called "tit for tat". The way it worked was that it would initiate with a cooperative move, and after that it would simply mirror the move of the other player. Not only did "tit for tat" have the highest total points, it trained the games it played against to also be cooperative, and THEY had higher points when they played "tit for tat".

There is a caveat to that, though: that assumes that each player views the same things as reward and the same things as punishment.

We took a class on parenting difficult children, most of whom had either ADHD or ODD. Now, ADHD children LOVE attention more than anything! But what usually happens is that when children are behaving well, the parents say "that's nice dear" and they scurry off to do all of the things they couldn't do when their child was misbehaving. But when the child is MISbehaving, the parents scold, slap... but they're PAYING ATTENTION. The parents THINK they're punishing their child, but it is in fact VERY REWARDING! The exact behavior they're trying to eliminate, they're actually encouraging. Sooner or later, it leads to real abuse. What the child finds very punishing is isolation.

See where I'm going with this?

Quote:

As I've pointed out time and time again, our best weapon against zealotry and fundamentalism is mockery and ridicule. Wait - our TWO best weapons are mockery, ridicule, and - hold on - our THREE best weapons are...
As much as I appreciate your rapier logic... I laugh out loud and read it to hubby.... it's never worked on rappy. The guy is immune to logic or facts, apparently.

Quote:

Furthermore, I will counter his attempts to ruin my rational discussion by mocking him. Because, first of all, this tone of conversation started with him, and second because it doesn't hurt him. He comes back to it, again and again with apparent glee.
Well, unless you like to mock him for YOUR enjoyment, this is another approach that doesn't seem to be working.

I read a paper - which I can't find anymore- that explains why people become even more intractable in their irrational beliefs when presented with contrary information. They hold these beliefs so firmly that whenever they can convince themselves (once again) they they're correct, they get a shot of dopamine (the addiction chemical). It gets to the point where they seek out conflict just to get that dopamine fix. I know it's a strange reward system, but having watched rappy over the years, I'd have to say it's true.

The other key to understanding rappy is that he ONLY responds to fear. Fear is the driving force behind everything he does... he's afraid of certain people, but his response is to dive into a middle of the biggest, baddest group that he can find. Now, this group that rappy wants protecting him can't be a group of namby-pamby libruls, they have to make HIM feel afraid, because only scary, powerful people can protect him from other scary people. Being isolated from a group of softy-liberals doesn't worry him too much, because ... hell, they're just softy-liberals, HOW can they possibly protect him??? KIKI remembers part of the isolation experiment, but not the whole thing... before I isolated him, I subtly threatened him to establish my authority. Yanno what?? It worked. Rappy responds to fear, and for a (little) while he wanted to be part of MY group, and being excluded made him nervous.

I would really want rappy to change his behavior. People have tried all kinds of responses with rappy, most of which have made it WORSE, if anything. Isolation might work. If not, it would certainly reduce the percentage of posts devoted to rappy!

Now, IMHO people like rappy are dangerous. Not here, in this forum necessarily, but in the larger, real world. Rappy no longer even pretends to espouse any improvement for society, he just wants his stuff... as much as he can take from anybody or everybody else. When that attitude is reflected and repeated among people it can reach a critical mass... especially when it's reinforced by the powers that be. People on Social Security, people on Medicare, poor people, working people... all of those people should feel threatened. And if you happen to be Muslim, or in a Middle-Eastern nation, you should REALLY feel threatened!

HKC, I'm not weeping over the fact that right-wingers aren't here as often as they used to be.. heck, I accidentally drove one away (FINN) by asking him to define his terms! If asking for definitions is a problem, or expecting an on-point answer is a problem, then maybe that poster shouldn't be on a DISCUSSION board, hmmmm....?

MAGONS- Self-defense IS a valid response to being attacked. Not useful, in this particular forum, but valid.

MAL4- You have yet to explain to me WHY you were so horrified when I equated genocide-promoting rappy with a rapist. If there wasn't real genocide going on, if rappy wasn't there clapping, cheering, and singing "another one bites the dust" it would all just be theoretical. But it's not. Please, tell me where his behavior rates on YOUR scale of ethics.

I find this particular proposition that we "should" be nice because only being nice "works", or we "should" be nice because only being "nice" is valid is terribly unrealistic and also somewhat cloying, and DEFNINITELY ineffective. As is reasoned discussion, name-calling, outrage, and feats of brilliant logic.

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Sunday, June 2, 2013 10:08 PM

MAGONSDAUGHTER


I never said self defence isn't valid, I said that a) I don't understand a lot of Americans attitude to self defense b) I don't think what is going on here is self defense.

Re a) I think if you do have to use self defense, you need to do so with inflicting the least possible harm necessary. therefore, shooting someone in the head who is trying to steal from you is a disproportionate response.

Re b) pretty self explanatory.

I am interested in your reference to game theory. I'd like to see more information on that. It goes against behavioural theory, which is more along the lines of what you described re ADHD kids. I've seen people, including parents, including myself, escalate conflict by doing the same behaviours as the other ie shouting, swearing.

In any event, I see the tit for tat too often in politics. It is the reasonable person's dilemna in my view. Do you keep being reasonable and ignored by the media, look weak, continiously be abused, or do you jump into the fray with the same hideous tactics as the opposition. Yeah, well then you have no reasonable candidates, everyone's a bastard and voters lose faith. Kind of what is happening.

Personally, I prefer the starve something of oxygen theory, and if you do have to be mean, be mean and clever and funny. Not just nasty. Why I love Colbert and the other one whose name escapes me.


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Monday, June 3, 2013 1:18 AM

MAL4PREZ


Quote:


MAL4- You have yet to explain to me WHY you were so horrified when I equated genocide-promoting rappy with a rapist. If there wasn't real genocide going on, if rappy wasn't there clapping, cheering, and singing "another one bites the dust" it would all just be theoretical. But it's not. Please, tell me where his behavior rates on YOUR scale of ethics.


OMG. You really are going full out Rappy on this one, aren't you? This is exactly the kind of stuff I expect from him. I explained in spades. The fact that you don't understand or accept my explanation does not mean I didn't explain.

Here, I will try to sum it up for you one more time. Genocide is not rape. Kay? Got it now?

I'm done talking to you about this. If you want to throw around terms that don't apply, have at it. But don't be confused as to why I think less of you. Especially when you're using such staight-up Rappy tactics.

And yes, my preferred response to Rappy is to ignore him. When I mock him its only one or two posts then I ignore his hysterics. His "arguments", or really, tactics aren't worth more that.

So when I ignore you now, guess what that's saying?

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Monday, June 3, 2013 6:10 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Wow, Mal4, so much said so well--not that I agree with it all, but nonetheless...
Quote:

As for being a bully, honey, I am real curious as to why you don't apply that term to Rappy. He's been MUCH more abusive on these boards than me. Why are you so happy to see him as some kind of victim here?[/quote


In spades. So many times I've tried to back off and be reasonable with Rap, but what I get back is so consistently insulting, eventually I start responding in kind.
Quote:

Really, there's some seriously lack of reality about him. I admit, it's a little fascinating. He's like a puzzle. Extra annoying because I can't figure it out.


Part of the reason I keep thinking he just wants attention, is just SO contrarian and abusive only in order to get reples. Hadn't thought about it, but you're right; in all the time I've been here, I don't know SQUAT about Rap as a human being, tho' I know quite a bit about others. I must have picked up somewhere that he's said he's in Washington, and 46. I've noticed he likes dogs (and possibly other animals), seen references to Star Trek and Dr. Who, has some interest in astronomy, and we've been able to converse on a few non-political subjects. That's all (of course I only "know" him in RWED). It IS interesting, since others have shared enough over time for me to have at least a few other ideas about them. I see I've been here since July of 2009...so in almost four years, after a HUGE volume of posts, I know virtually nothing about Rap as a human being. Interesting.
Quote:

OTOH, having been on the board from the very beginning, I've seen probably thousands of person-hours if not tens of thousands of person-hours wasted every year on these posters. Of reasoned, factual, documented and validated argument about any number of topics: poverty and death. Muslims. wiretapping. the death penalty. birth control. abortion. Bush's magical shrinking economy and magical ballooning deficit. Iraq's magical disappearing WMDs. gun control. human rights. global warming. health care. drugs. homosexuality. ... you name it, we've been there, done that as a general group of people on a website, many many times over.


Okay, I've only been here four years, but I've seen all that. I wasn't here when people ignored Rap so I never got to see any "moderating" of his behavior, and I HAVE never seen any, CERTAINLY not with respect to me.

On the other hand, Kiki:
Quote:

So, did Niki post snark? No. Did she call him or anyone names? no.


That's not true. A LOT of what I put up is anti-right-wing, which counts every bit as much as Jong's anti-left-wing when it comes to a kind of "neener, neener" snark. Watching Jong do it these days, I can certainly see how it would FEEL to righties like I "flood the board". And certainly I call people names, I don't know how you could miss that...well, insofar as I refer to them in "disparaging terms", admittedly not individual nasty monikers. I don't think I'm nearly as overtly nasty as Rap or some others, but I've snarked with the worst of them. And good gawd, you can't possibly be serious with "sans partisanship"! ;o)

Wow, Sig, that "treatise" was splendiferous, many thanx! The misbehaving kids is why I got the belief I did about Rap--I'm not so sure about the reasoning about Rap's fear, tho'. Certainly it's easy to see that fear is behind virtually everything about the posts he writes (if they're for real), but I find it hard to believe that fear would change his attitude here; isolation, maybe, and UNQUESTIONABLY "If not, it would certainly reduce the percentage of posts devoted to rappy!" I'm so sick to death of those unending back-and-forths and scrolling past them to TRY and find something worth reading/replying to...it's a LARGE part of the frustration that gets me joining in the fray, alternating with pleas to PLEASE stop encouraging him (which is amusing since they're the opposite of one another!).


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Monday, June 3, 2013 7:07 AM

KPO

Sometimes you own the libs. Sometimes, the libs own you.


Quote:

I find that really curious, considering the VAST amount of nastiness I read directed at liberals, and even moderates, here. It's probably not worth it, but perhaps I should keep track, as you suggested, and see if I'm misperceiving things...

I'm quite interested to see the results of the insult thread. I think people may be quite surprised when they see the abusiveness tallied up, and who the principle culprits are.

But basically yes, I think the people on the left here are more abusive. The only time that hasn't been the case was when Kaneman was around - he skewed things all by himself. Like HK, I have had no real experience of conservatives being directly abusive to me, and Lord knows I've tangled with them often enough.

It's not personal. It's just war.

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Monday, June 3, 2013 7:38 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


I think it depends on who you are, and who's here at the time. Are we counting how many/which left/right posters are abusive, how often they are abusive (as in how many insults they post individually) to this or that person, or how much abuse goes each direction in general? You see the problem...

My personal hope is the "insult thread" might help tone things down at least a bit...hey, I'm allowed to hope...


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Monday, June 3, 2013 12:36 PM

KPO

Sometimes you own the libs. Sometimes, the libs own you.


Quote:

My personal hope is the "insult thread" might help tone things down at least a bit...hey, I'm allowed to hope...

We'll see. I'm hopeful.

Quote:

I think it depends on who you are, and who's here at the time. Are we counting how many/which left/right posters are abusive, how often they are abusive (as in how many insults they post individually) to this or that person, or how much abuse goes each direction in general? You see the problem...

I think it would be interesting to break down the data a few different ways - but all we need to worry about now is gathering it.

It's not personal. It's just war.

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Monday, June 3, 2013 12:45 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


"A LOT of what I put up is anti-right-wing, which counts every bit as much as Jong's anti-left-wing when it comes to a kind of "neener, neener" snark."

Do you post the same kind of vituperative commentary he does in addition to your links and quotes? Do you draw your sources from places that literally make up shit like he does? Are you unwilling to discuss the actual subject of your posts like he is? Do you post 15+ new threads each day like he has?

You may understand, accept, maybe even welcome his behavior.

I don't. A position I have not adopted on your behalf. It's on mine.

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Monday, June 3, 2013 2:39 PM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Quote:

Do you post the same kind of vituperative commentary he does in addition to your links and quotes? Do you draw your sources from places that literally make up shit like he does? Are you unwilling to discuss the actual subject of your posts like he is? Do you post 15+ new threads each day like he has?


Well, it doesn't feel to ME as if my commentary is as nasty as his; a couple of times my sources have proven to be wrong, or further information has come to light; but yes, I put stuff up specifically because it IS something I'd be interested in discussing, and hope someone else would be, too; and I don't think Jong is putting up 15+ posts a day, is he? Might be, I haven't been keeping track; I know the number I put up has, from what they say, certainly pissed off our right-winters.

For the record, no, I certainly don't welcome Jong's behavior, or particularly understand it (certainly not the original thread-fest). I accept there's nothing I can do about it anyway, but the repetition on the same couple of supposed "scandals" and the perpetual focus on anti-left is mildly irritating, admittedly. I did try responding to a few when he started which were more neutral subjects, but got no response so I stopped trying.

I guess if anything actually irritates me about it, it's the nasty vein and the non sequiturs of "cluck" and so forth, which pretty eloquently express where he's coming from. The vitriol that expresses is certainly a turnoff, for me at least.


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Monday, June 3, 2013 4:58 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them. SECOND: I am so very sorry I libelled you by labelling you a Russian Troll. I apologize for this. http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?bid=18&tid=64646&p=2


Quote:

OMG. You really are going full out Rappy on this one, aren't you?... I explained in spades. The fact that you don't understand or accept my explanation does not mean I didn't explain.... Here, I will try to sum it up for you one more time. Genocide is not rape. Kay? Got it now?
MAL4 No, sweetie, I'm going after YOU. And the reason is... the reason why I can't understand your explanation.. is because it doesn't make sense. You keep saying "Rape isn't genocide". Okay, got it. Rape not genocide. Because rape is a SPECIFC crime and SPECIFIC word. But when I explain that I wasn't the one who used it and wasn't APPLYING the word "rape" in it's literal specific sense, you make a hard turn right off your original argument that it's all about the SPECIFIC word, and then claim that I'm "weasel wording". In other words, you're upset because you think I'm applying a specific word, and then you get upset because I'm not applying the word specifically at all?

Huh?

I mean... HUH???

In other words, I think the confusion is at your end, not mine. You have a deeply felt reaction, but I'm pretty sure you yourself don't even know what it is that's bothering you. Please, apply brain to problem, and let me know what you figure out. Or not, your choice!

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Tuesday, June 4, 2013 4:20 AM

BYTEMITE


AuRaptor has never personally engaged in or committed torture, murder, or genocide. He happens to support a few things I consider distasteful, maybe even wrong, like the war, and waterboarding, yet he does not consider those things torture or murder. I know plenty of otherwise okay moral people who also support those tactics because they believe it keeps America safe, and as selfish and counterproductive as that sounds, they rate America's safety higher than American values. Similarly I know he is against abortion and has said sexist things in the past, yet many people do that and they aren't murderers, and they aren't rapists, and they don't bomb abortion clinics, and as far as I know AuRaptor has done none of those things.

As such I can reasonably be sure that he is probably not a monster, rather he's just another right wing voter.

Calling him any of these things - torturer, murderer, genocider, or rapist, is simply not accurate and are all uncalled for. If AuRaptor is all those things just for supporting one group and their political beliefs and actions, then so am I, so are you, so is everyone. I support gay rights, and gay adoption, and I question the application of some statutory age of consent laws, and by right wing standards and values that means I support rape because they think gay = pedophile. So, am I a rapist?

We have to draw the line somewhere. We can only judge people on what they have actually done, not damning them and their beliefs by association. And much like other members on the board, the only thing AURaptor has DONE is vote, which, in my opinion, is the same as doing nothing. Doesn't mean a clear conscience or that voters are absolved of responsibility, but it also doesn't mean monster.

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Tuesday, June 4, 2013 4:28 AM

MAL4PREZ


Sig, sweetie pie honeykins, the thing I'm reacting to is you saying that Rappy deserves to be called a rapist. That's a specific word that you very clearly and specifically applied.

If you did not mean this, please clarify.

If you did mean this, you are really off your gourd to not understand my very clear explanation of the misuse of the term.


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Tuesday, June 4, 2013 4:40 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them. SECOND: I am so very sorry I libelled you by labelling you a Russian Troll. I apologize for this. http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?bid=18&tid=64646&p=2


I have claeified, now for roughly the fifth time, that rappy is not a rapist (as far as I know). How many times do I have to say that for it to sink in? What I said, very clearly in my original wording, was that he deserved to be called that, or worse. Now, if I had said flatly that he was a rapist... or maybe even if he "deerved to be" called a rapist, then maybe you would have a point. Once I added "or worse" to my sentence, it should have been clear from the very start that I wasn't using "rape" in its literal sense, I was suggesting that there are moral transgressions "as bad as" or "worse than" rape. I already made that point, too, several times, but apparenlty that wasn't acceptable to you either!

We could have perhaps gone into a discussion of moral transgressions- Can they be comapred? If so, what is worse? How "shared" is "shared responsibility"? But instead, you chose to exercise your outrage and disappointment. And, to this moment, I'm not sure that YOU understand why, because I the hell sure don't.

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Tuesday, June 4, 2013 4:42 AM

MAL4PREZ


Quote:

Originally posted by BYTEMITE:
AuRaptor has never tortured, murderered, or genocided himself.



Not that we're in a court of law, but note that there are different charges for those who actually do a crime than for those who abet. I believe it is somewhat important to discover the level of awareness in a perp to decide on the level of the crime and the punishment.

Suppose I purposely replace a pizza joint's parmesan cheese with rat poison and lots of patrons eat it and die. I am a mass murderer and likely go to the chair.

Suppose I am a dambass clueless waitress who picks up the wrong box when refilling the shakers. I am guilty of manslaughter (um, right?) and my spend some time in jail. Maybe you'd call me a killer, but not a murderer.

Suppose my son is emotionally unstable but I just love him too much to believe that he's so bad off, even when he starts talking about how much he hates the place where he waits tables and all those evil damned customers. And then he does the rat poison thing. What am I guilty of for ignoring the signs? Am I a mass murderer too?

ETA: sorry, not clear. I mean to agree with what you're saying Byte.

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Tuesday, June 4, 2013 4:44 AM

MAL4PREZ


Sig, the thing I will never understand is how you can say someone deserves to be called something which they are not.

Does not compute.

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Tuesday, June 4, 2013 4:45 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them. SECOND: I am so very sorry I libelled you by labelling you a Russian Troll. I apologize for this. http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?bid=18&tid=64646&p=2


Well, MAL4, this is an entirely different discussion, and one that I invited several times. NOW you want to change the discussion??? Fine!

Quote:

Sig, the thing I will never understand is how you can say someone deserves to be called something which they are not. Does not compute.
It doesn't compute because I didn't say it. What if I has said- of a big Ponzi scheme operator, for example- He deserves to be called a robber, or worse. Now, robbery is a violent crime, embezzling not so much. But an embezzler can do far more damage to far more people than a simple robber. In this less emotional setting, does this still seem uninterpretable?

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Tuesday, June 4, 2013 4:52 AM

BYTEMITE


You have a social responsibility, and to reneg on social responsibility is... bad. It allows bad things to happen. As I said in the other thread, the breadmaker in the town of Dachau is just as guilty in some ways as the people who manned the ovens of the concentration camps.

But to say that the breadmaker is themselves a murderer because of this is a strange assertion. I understand how our laws work, but even our laws wouldn't charge the mother of the Sandyhook shooter for involuntary manslaughter, because again, there are limits of culpability, and limits as to who we can call a murderer.

I am frustrated as hell with the average American voter because I see them as perpetuating some truly TERRIBLE things no matter which party they voted for. And yet I do not think of them as monsters. The monsters are the people who actually commit the crime.

EDIT: Oops, saw your edit Mal4Prez. Yes.

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Tuesday, June 4, 2013 4:57 AM

BYTEMITE


Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:
What if I has said- of a big Ponzi scheme operator, for example- He deserves to be called a robber, or worse. Now, robbery is a violent crime, embezzling not so much. But an embezzler can do far more damage to far more people than a simple robber. In this less emotional setting, does this still seem uninterpretable?



A ponzi scheme operator has actually committed a crime, and their crime can be compared to robbery, because it is taking money with no intention of repayment. A theft, through defrauding under false pretenses.

AURaptor voting Republican can not possibly be compared to him committing rape, or torture, or murder, or genocide.

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Tuesday, June 4, 2013 5:00 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them. SECOND: I am so very sorry I libelled you by labelling you a Russian Troll. I apologize for this. http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?bid=18&tid=64646&p=2


What is the difference between a Ponzi scheme operator and a banker?

In any case, Auraptor, by demanding that all Muslims be killed, can be considered to be engaged in hate speech, which IS a crime. I'm not saying that rappy should be blown in to the FBI (as I was, once), but what is his responsibility and moral culpability for what he quite actively advocates?

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Tuesday, June 4, 2013 5:13 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them. SECOND: I am so very sorry I libelled you by labelling you a Russian Troll. I apologize for this. http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?bid=18&tid=64646&p=2


Did I just kill the thread?

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