REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

Gun Myth Tragically Debunked: Texas DAs Prepared, Armed And Expecting Trouble – Still Assassinated

POSTED BY: NIKI2
UPDATED: Sunday, April 14, 2013 01:54
SHORT URL:
VIEWED: 4120
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Wednesday, April 3, 2013 7:54 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Nobody seems to be remarking on this one...what was it Carrey's spoof sang, "But the psychos win no matter what you do, 'cuz they're gonna buy way more guns than you."
Quote:

The common theme of much of the gun enthusiast community is that they want unfettered access to any and all guns to, 1) protect their family/home; 2) fight tyranny [so far extremely undefined], and 3) defend against marauding hordes in a time of social unrest.

This brings us to the events of last two weeks in Colorado and Texas. On March 20, the Executive Director of Colorado Prisons, Tom Clements, was gunned down at his front door. It would be expected, considering his job, that he was armed, or at least had a firearm in his home.

Days later the suspect shot a Deputy Sheriff in Texas minutes before he was fatally injured during a car chase. The gun in his possession was traced back to the gun that killed Colorado prison chief Clements. That gun, a Smith & Wesson 9mm semi-automatic, had been purchased through a strawman buyer two weeks before Clements was killed. The suspect was a member of the Aryan Brotherhood of Texas.

On January 31, in Kaufman, Texas, Assistant District Attorney Mark E. Hasse, 57, was gunned down in the employee parking lot of the Kaufman County Courthouse by two men wearing tactical vests. He was working on a major case against the Aryan Brotherhood of Texas. He was armed and expecting trouble.

On March 30, Kaufman District Attorney Mike McLelland and his wife were gunned down in their home by assassins with an AR-15 rifle. The 20+ shots killed the District Attorney who had 23 years of military training, weapons in his home and, after his ADA was killed less than two months earlier, was expecting trouble.

Three days later, April 2, the Federal prosecutor in Dallas, who had been working on the Aryan Brotherhood of Texas case, walked away from the job for “security” reasons. This prosecutor had available the blanket of security of the U.S. Marshal’s service to protect him. He did not feel safe.

And that brings us back to marauding hordes. If anything defines civil unrest by an armed group, these last few months do; unrest perpetrated by a highly armed criminal enterprise that apparently is fearless to the repercussions of killing cops and district attorneys. When we realistically look at defending against a marauding horde and home invasion, it seems there is a perception that the “good guy with the gun” will, as he does in the movies, stop the “bad guy with a gun.” In three very clear instances, the victims did not stand a chance. They were armed, prepared and, by all indications, trained to protect themselves and their family. All for naught.

Just days later the Federal Prosecutor, with a cadre of armed agents of the U.S. Marshal’s Service and other agencies, made the decision to walk away instead of face that threat.

The point: gun enthusiasts say that they need an unlimited arsenal to protect the home, the homestead and society. Yet history has shown that it just doesn’t work that way. Folks who are on alert, who are expecting danger, still can’t stop it. The illusion that is given by gun enthusiasts is that somehow “they would.” It is a dangerous illusion. More at http://www.addictinginfo.org/2013/04/03/gun-myth-tragically-debunked-t
exas-das-prepared-armed-and-expecting-trouble-still-assassinated/


How do our pro-gun folk explain this?

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Thursday, April 4, 2013 2:03 AM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up


Had a fatal auto crash here a few days ago. All the dead were wearing seat belts. Obviously, seat belts do no good and should not be worn. Right?


"When your heart breaks, you choose what to fill the cracks with. Love or hate. But hate won't ever heal. Only love can do that."

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Thursday, April 4, 2013 5:15 AM

STORYMARK


Quote:

Originally posted by Niki2:

How do our pro-gun folk explain this?



They don't.

They'll prattle on about how more guns will solve the problem - but when their rhetoric is proven wroong, they scurry, or refuse to answer, as grampa just did.




Excuse me while I soak in all these sweet, sweet conservative tears.

"We will never have the elite, smart people on our side." -- Rick "Frothy" Santorum

"Goram it kid, let's frak this thing and go home! Engage!"

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Thursday, April 4, 2013 5:51 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


I kinda "get" their "logic". But the flaw in the logic is that seat belts don't kill people (if you want to bicker, okay, "A LOT") when misused or just kept around "in case", nor does most anything ELSE intended to prevent harm. Just having guns around, from what studies have shown, increases the risk of harm quite a lot, and didn't prevent the harm they were supposed to, so the "logic" falls apart at that point.

They can also say the laws, etc., intended to prevent gun violence don't work 100% either, but given neither does having guns, that "logic" doesn't work either. An interesting study would be how much harm is CAUSED by having guns as opposed to how much harm is PREVENTED, but it's an impossible study, obviously, so they'll keep on making the argument.


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Thursday, April 4, 2013 5:56 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


In other words: Every single thing that's been implemented to lessen harm, from occupational-safety rules to food-safety laws and on and on, hasn't prevented harm 100% of the time. But the vast majority of those things haven't CAUSED major harm. Having a gun to prevent crime can, and has, caused immense amounts of harm in many households, while how much harm it's PREVENTED is much in debate. So saying we shouldn't have laws which attempt to prevent or minimize harm because they don't do so 100% isn't a valid argument unless those laws can be shown to have CAUSED a lot of harm.

To address the specific point: Yes, seat belts have caused harm. Each time they do so, they change the seat belts in hopes of causing LESS harm while providing MORE prevention. And to date seat belts haven't CAUSED anything like as much harm as not having them, and have PREVENTED tons of harm. How does that relate to guns?

Let's see how they debate THAT one, if they can.


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Thursday, April 4, 2013 6:05 AM

STORYMARK


Yeah, no one has accidentally strangled a toddler while cleaning their seat-belt.

But you won't find any gun advocates honest enough to aknoweldge this.




Excuse me while I soak in all these sweet, sweet conservative tears.

"We will never have the elite, smart people on our side." -- Rick "Frothy" Santorum

"Goram it kid, let's frak this thing and go home! Engage!"

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Thursday, April 4, 2013 8:01 AM

FREMDFIRMA


What room is there to "debate" with an obvious fanatic ?

Oh, yes, and airbags have killed a few folk too.
The world is not a safe place, hell, you can trip on a curb and break your damn neck - but tellya what, you wanna supposedly "debate" it, which I don't believe for even a picosecond, then you find me one single instance of a firearm going off all by its lonesome without any human intervention whatsoever, one case where it suddenly went off all by itself and caused harm.

Or perhaps find me some case where an ax all by itself decided to murder some people, yeah.

-F

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Thursday, April 4, 2013 8:05 AM

STORYMARK


Quote:

Originally posted by FREMDFIRMA:

Or perhaps find me some case where an ax all by itself decided to murder some people, yeah.

-F



That argument is just as vapid.




Excuse me while I soak in all these sweet, sweet conservative tears.

"We will never have the elite, smart people on our side." -- Rick "Frothy" Santorum

"Goram it kid, let's frak this thing and go home! Engage!"

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Thursday, April 4, 2013 8:10 AM

WULFENSTAR

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg


Isn't murder illegal?

There are laws against that, arn't there?

I mean, you would think murder would be illegal.

If not, lets make a law against it. Hell, make 3! Also, make the penalty really harsh.

That'll fix the problem!

Idiots.


"None of you seem to understand. I'm not locked in here with you... YOU are locked in here with ME."

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Thursday, April 4, 2013 9:28 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Quote:

But you won't find any gun advocates honest enough to aknoweldge this.

Amazing, aren't they? Do you think a single one will ever address that all these people were armed, trained, expecting trouble, prepared, yet all their guns didn't keep them safe? Ever?

Yeah, I know. Me neither. What's funniest of all is that we're not saying "no guns"--we're saying "guns, AND laws, AND restrictions on SOME guns and on SOME people owning guns"...in other words, everything we can think of to minimize harm". But all some of them will ever read or claim is that we're always saying "NO guns". What's up with that?

Frem, I will address you once, and only once. "you wanna supposedly "debate" it, which I don't believe for even a picosecond": FUCK YOU! I have never, anywhere, at any time in my entire life, wanted to take away everyone's guns. THAT is the fact. Nor have more than maybe one or two people here, if that. That you keep claiming you know otherwise does absolutely nothing but make you look like an asshole and lets you out of any and all discussion, as far as I'm concerned.

Yes, we want to debate; we want to debate SOME REASONABLE RESTRICTIONS on guns. You can play your game and claim some kind of weird high ground or whatever the fuck it is you try to do with your pathetic "you lie" gambit, but the fact is that just as long as you play that game, you take yourself out of the discussion. You make yourself totally irrelevant as some kind of fanatic who cannot deal with what is real and honest. Period.

So my question is (and it's rhetorical, by the way) WHY? What does it gain you to look stubbornly, deliberately stupid? What do you get out of putting yourself firmly on the fringe in a group which is almost wholly composed of people who want to discuss the issue rationally? Whatever sad thing it is, I hope it gives you comfort, because it does nothing here but make you a fanatic nonentity.


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Thursday, April 4, 2013 9:52 AM

WULFENSTAR

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg


Niki,

Tell you what.

You live by your beliefs.

Disarm. Get rid of anything that can be used as a weapon. Steak knives included. Then, tell everyone HERE where you live. Address please.

Next, put a sign on your front lawn letting people know that you are a gun-free household.

Do all that. Go on. Do it.

If you do those things.... really do them... I might begin to listen to you.

Until then: You are just a hippie crackpot, trying to make the rest of us defenseless. To make us unarmed so we can't stop you when you push your agenda.

In other words: a BULLY.


P.S. Every bully I had to deal with, ended up in the hospital.

"None of you seem to understand. I'm not locked in here with you... YOU are locked in here with ME."

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Thursday, April 4, 2013 9:56 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Just to save you time and effort in future, Wulf; I stopped reading your posts a long time ago because of how insanely absurd they are, so by all means, respond to mine so everyone else can read your thoughts and you can make your point and all, just be aware that I don't read them so you'll never get a reply, 'kay?


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Thursday, April 4, 2013 9:58 AM

WULFENSTAR

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg


No prob Niki,

I know you live in an echo chamber.

"None of you seem to understand. I'm not locked in here with you... YOU are locked in here with ME."

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Thursday, April 4, 2013 10:15 AM

HERO


Quote:

Originally posted by Storymark:
Yeah, no one has accidentally strangled a toddler while cleaning their seat-belt.

But you won't find any gun advocates honest enough to aknoweldge this.


Apples are red or green and round and can be sweet or sour depending on the type and can be grown in a variety of climates. Oranges are round and orange colored and can only be grown in warmer climates. They are sweet and have a distictive flavor.

By liberal definitions...Apples and Oranges are the same thing.

I note for the record the recent shooting in Colorado where a person broke into a prosecutor's home and was shot and killed by either the prosecutor or her police office husband. Since you've already decided that any one example can apply in any and every situation...clearly everyone should have a gun because, as this case proves, it will ALWAYS save your life.

H

Hero...must be right on all of this. ALL of the rest of us are wrong. Chrisisall, 2012

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Thursday, April 4, 2013 10:38 AM

HERO


Lets do an experiment.

We both post signs outside our home and on Craigslist.

Mine says, "Owners armed, intruders will be shot...many, many times."

Yours says, "Owners have no weapons and do not trust the police. If you rob us, your safety is guaranteed."

Then we can wait and see who gets robbed first. I suspect...and maybe I'm off here...it's going to be you, hell there'll be a line, you could sell 'come rob me tickets'....

H

Hero...must be right on all of this. ALL of the rest of us are wrong. Chrisisall, 2012

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Thursday, April 4, 2013 10:56 AM

MAGONSDAUGHTER


I'm the only person here who could possible be described as an anti gun fanatic. I am so anti gun, I do not allow my son to own toy guns.

However, I'm from another country. I don't fully understand why large segments of the population appear so myopic about wanting to own guns.

The evidence appears to strongly suggest that an armed population increases the chances of having a gun being used against the population.

Additionally I do not advocate hard strong laws at this point in time for the US, even though I am not a supporter of a population being heavily armed. I think the proposed changes look pretty mild to me.

I've seen a lot of debates on this board around this issue. I've seen people who own guns call for restrictions on assault weapons, on the amounts of ammo you can buy and some better regulation/or implementation of regulations about who can buy guns.

None of that appears fanatical to me.

I've also seen arguments, although you could hardly call them that, where any discussion around ANY restriction results in bitter bile and accusations being spewed forth.

That appears fanatical to me.

All I can say is good luck folks. I hope you can make some sensible decisions around these issues.

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Thursday, April 4, 2013 11:07 AM

WULFENSTAR

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg


The only people who are against people having guns... are the ones who have never needed one to protect their lives, their families, their friends, strangers.... or to hunt for food.

Or.

To fight against tyranny.

Lucky them, to live so isolated.

"None of you seem to understand. I'm not locked in here with you... YOU are locked in here with ME."

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Thursday, April 4, 2013 11:07 AM

WULFENSTAR

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg


dp

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Thursday, April 4, 2013 12:33 PM

STORYMARK


Quote:

Originally posted by Hero:
Apples are red or green and round and can be sweet or sour depending on the type and can be grown in a variety of climates. Oranges are round and orange colored and can only be grown in warmer climates. They are sweet and have a distictive flavor.

By liberal definitions...Apples and Oranges are the same thing.




Jesus Christ, I was pointing out the absurdity of making such comparisons, you nitwit, not endorsing it.

The whole point was that they are not comparable, you idiot.

Fuck's sake, learn to read.




Excuse me while I soak in all these sweet, sweet conservative tears.

"We will never have the elite, smart people on our side." -- Rick "Frothy" Santorum

"Goram it kid, let's frak this thing and go home! Engage!"

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Thursday, April 4, 2013 12:58 PM

JONGSSTRAW


Obama's favorite poet Maya Angelou loves guns. This cultural icon of the pseudo-intellectual left talks about using a gun to defend herself in her home in this recent interview at 3:07. I guess she didn't get the memo about staplers.



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Thursday, April 4, 2013 8:12 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Beyond lame, even for niki's standards.

We ALL know he should have called the cops & let them deal with this killer.

Fathom the hypocrisy of a government that requires every citizen to prove they are insured... but not everyone must prove they are a citizen

Resident USA Freedom Fundie

" AU, that was great, LOL!! " - Chrisisall

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Thursday, April 4, 2013 9:10 PM

FREMDFIRMA


Quote:

Originally posted by Storymark:
That argument is just as vapid.


Which is EXACTLY the point, Storymark.

Why does one "side" of such a discussion get a free pass to make ridiculous assumptions ?
If you allow a discussion to start from such ridiculous assertions in the first place, then it never goes anywhere but south - it's like trying to debate Rappy starting off on letting slide the assumption that Iraq had nukes, from that moment there's no point to debate cause it starts on a bogus assumption.

Another example would be starting off a discussion in todays modern society with "So there you are, walking your slave coffle.." - and never challenging the assumption that slavery is still legal, it's ridiculous.

And since Niki wants to get all personal about it, after of course deliberately trolling and pontificating while handing out such bullshit assumptions thinkin that they wouldn't be challenged cause I'd rather not fight with her hypocritical fanaticism, well...

Hey, fuck you too - I offered a very rational, well thought out and completely realistic proposal which would have solved most of the issues folks have and would have cost little or nothing in legislative time and resources, one I have offered multiple times around here in fact.

Which was dismissed out of hand and mostly ignored because of the rather blatant dishonesty behind the words "reasonable restrictions", something I might address elsewhere as well.
Sorry, but I think that little ball of tripe has been as thoroughly debunked, and as hypocritcal a false-front as fetal protection bills, and I ain't buyin it no more.

If standing for every right, for everyone, whether I care for it or not, whether I care for who has it, how they use it, or whether I benefit from it at all makes me a stubborn, stupid fanatic...
Well, so be it.

-F

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Friday, April 5, 2013 2:30 AM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up


Quote:

Originally posted by Niki2:
I kinda "get" their "logic". But the flaw in the logic is that seat belts don't kill people (if you want to bicker, okay, "A LOT") when misused or just kept around "in case", nor does most anything ELSE intended to prevent harm.



And so we get into the 'objects kill people' as opposed to 'people kill people' issue.

The referenced fatal wreck was a single car incident, and the driver and two of his friends died. Excessive speed was involved. Who killed them? The car? The seatbelts? Or the driver?



"When your heart breaks, you choose what to fill the cracks with. Love or hate. But hate won't ever heal. Only love can do that."

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Friday, April 5, 2013 3:54 PM

HERO


Quote:

Originally posted by Magonsdaughter:
I'm the only person here who could possible be described as an anti gun fanatic. I am so anti gun, I do not allow my son to own toy guns.

However, I'm from another country. I don't fully understand why large segments of the population appear so myopic about wanting to own guns.

The evidence appears to strongly suggest that an armed population increases the chances of having a gun being used against the population.
.


I didn't see anyone address your point.

You are from another country and you acknowledge that it has colored your understanding of America''s gun culture. The origins of that culture are very clear if you examine American history and our development from a colonial nation to a revolutionairy nation, a frontier nation and into modern times which up until the last fifty years placed liberty and personal responsibility among our most closely held virtues. Our legacy is a nation of explorers, hunters, trappers, wilderness families, gunfighters, and liberators. We hold dear our freedoms...so dear we place our freedom to speak our minds and worship as we please first among our rights. Second, is our arms because having escaped a world ruled by kings and tyrants and with the example of all human history to look upon we chose not to place our faith in government but rather in ourselves. Governments can be defeated, conquered, or corrupted, but we believe that a free people concieved in liberty and given the means to protect it...we cannot be defeated. Now this reasoning, like all human reasoning has it's flaws, but it is what has driven this nation since before its inception.

What country are you from? It might be relevant to reaching a greater appreciation.

H

Hero...must be right on all of this. ALL of the rest of us are wrong. Chrisisall, 2012

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Friday, April 5, 2013 4:41 PM

MAGONSDAUGHTER


Quote:

Originally posted by Hero:

I didn't see anyone address your point.

You are from another country and you acknowledge that it has colored your understanding of America''s gun culture. The origins of that culture are very clear if you examine American history and our development from a colonial nation to a revolutionairy nation, a frontier nation and into modern times which up until the last fifty years placed liberty and personal responsibility among our most closely held virtues. Our legacy is a nation of explorers, hunters, trappers, wilderness families, gunfighters, and liberators. We hold dear our freedoms...so dear we place our freedom to speak our minds and worship as we please first among our rights. Second, is our arms because having escaped a world ruled by kings and tyrants and with the example of all human history to look upon we chose not to place our faith in government but rather in ourselves. Governments can be defeated, conquered, or corrupted, but we believe that a free people concieved in liberty and given the means to protect it...we cannot be defeated. Now this reasoning, like all human reasoning has it's flaws, but it is what has driven this nation since before its inception.




Oh my heard the Rockets Red Glare booming from your post. Very patriotic. Thanks for your burst of national pride. Hope you feel all swell about the gun death stats now.

Cheers


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Friday, April 5, 2013 5:14 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!



Why would anyone feel proud of any death stats, be they from guns, automobiles, heart disease or drug overdose ?

I liked how you utterly ignored the point being made, bout the history of the US, and what our Founders had in mind when they wrote our Constitution.

They knew EXACTLY what they were doing.

Fathom the hypocrisy of a government that requires every citizen to prove they are insured... but not everyone must prove they are a citizen

Resident USA Freedom Fundie

" AU, that was great, LOL!! " - Chrisisall

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Friday, April 5, 2013 5:23 PM

PIRATENEWS

John Lee, conspiracy therapist at Hollywood award-winner History Channel-mocked SNL-spoofed PirateNew.org wooHOO!!!!!!


Sounds like these prosecutors effed with Obama's Mexican Mafia.

I agree with Operative Nikovich2, all cops and prosecutors should be disarmed. But the Mexican illegal alien gangbangers should be given another 20,000 assault weapons by Obama's Dept of Homeland Justice, because they chop the heads off cops and prosecutors.

Quote:

"We need to brainwash people to think about guns in a vastly different way."
-US attorney general Eric Holder, director of the OK City Bombing coverup and Operation Fast and Furious that gave 20,000 assault rifles to the Mexican mafia, CSPAN2

"We don't let them have ideas. Why would we let them have guns?"
-Joseph Stalin J?u?ašvili

“Today, we need a nation of Minutemen, citizens who are not only prepared to take arms, but citizens who regard the preservation of freedom as the basic purpose of their daily life.”
-John F. Kennedy, before CIA's and Pentagon's Operation Northwoods blew his head off on live TV

"There's going to be a Marxist revolution in Amerika. We need to be organized and grow the movement."
-Barack Hussein Obama Soetoro, foreign exchange student member of the Young Marxist Club at Occidental College
http://www.americanthinker.com/2011/02/meeting_young_obama.html

“Any fourth grade history student knows socialism has failed in every country, at every time in history. President Obama and his fellow Democrats are either idiots or deliberately trying to destroy their own economy.”
-Vladimir Putin KGB president



Hey it's another Joss Whedon TV series!






In Firefly the Alliance merged the US flag with the flag of Communist China
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alliance_(Firefly)

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Friday, April 5, 2013 5:50 PM

PIRATENEWS

John Lee, conspiracy therapist at Hollywood award-winner History Channel-mocked SNL-spoofed PirateNew.org wooHOO!!!!!!


Quote:

Originally posted by WULFENSTAR:
Niki,

Tell you what.

You live by your beliefs.

Disarm. Get rid of anything that can be used as a weapon. Steak knives included. Then, tell everyone HERE where you live. Address please.

Next, put a sign on your front lawn letting people know that you are a gun-free household.

Do all that. Go on. Do it.

If you do those things.... really do them... I might begin to listen to you.

Until then: You are just a hippie crackpot, trying to make the rest of us defenseless. To make us unarmed so we can't stop you when you push your agenda.

In other words: a BULLY.


P.S. Every bully I had to deal with, ended up in the hospital.

"None of you seem to understand. I'm not locked in here with you... YOU are locked in here with ME."






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Friday, April 5, 2013 5:51 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by Geezer:
Had a fatal auto crash here a few days ago. All the dead were wearing seat belts. Obviously, seat belts do no good and should not be worn. Right?




Criminals won't wear seatbelts anyway, so why even bother with them? They're an inconvenience to law-abiding folks, right? Why should we be inconvenienced because of what some reckless driver *MIGHT* do?



"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence [sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero

"I was wrong" - Hero, 2012

Mitt Romney, introducing his running mate: "Join me in welcoming the next President of the United States, Paul Ryan!"

Rappy's response? "You're lying, gullible ( believing in some BS you heard on msnbc ) or hard of hearing."

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Friday, April 5, 2013 5:55 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by FREMDFIRMA:
What room is there to "debate" with an obvious fanatic ?

Oh, yes, and airbags have killed a few folk too.
The world is not a safe place, hell, you can trip on a curb and break your damn neck - but tellya what, you wanna supposedly "debate" it, which I don't believe for even a picosecond, then you find me one single instance of a firearm going off all by its lonesome without any human intervention whatsoever, one case where it suddenly went off all by itself and caused harm.

Or perhaps find me some case where an ax all by itself decided to murder some people, yeah.

-F




How about a dog shooting its owner? "No human intervention", you say...



"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence [sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero

"I was wrong" - Hero, 2012

Mitt Romney, introducing his running mate: "Join me in welcoming the next President of the United States, Paul Ryan!"

Rappy's response? "You're lying, gullible ( believing in some BS you heard on msnbc ) or hard of hearing."

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Friday, April 5, 2013 5:57 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by WULFENSTAR:
Isn't murder illegal?

There are laws against that, arn't there?

I mean, you would think murder would be illegal.

If not, lets make a law against it. Hell, make 3! Also, make the penalty really harsh.

That'll fix the problem!

Idiots.


"None of you seem to understand. I'm not locked in here with you... YOU are locked in here with ME."




Why make it illegal? According to gun nuts, criminals won't obey the laws anyway!

Why have laws against child abuse or kiddie porn if those kinds of people are going to do it anyway? Why not just let them do what they're going to do. So some people get hurt - that's the cost of freedom! Even Frem must agree with that, right?





"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence [sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero

"I was wrong" - Hero, 2012

Mitt Romney, introducing his running mate: "Join me in welcoming the next President of the United States, Paul Ryan!"

Rappy's response? "You're lying, gullible ( believing in some BS you heard on msnbc ) or hard of hearing."

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Friday, April 5, 2013 6:04 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by WULFENSTAR:
Niki,

Tell you what.

You live by your beliefs.

Disarm. Get rid of anything that can be used as a weapon. Steak knives included. Then, tell everyone HERE where you live. Address please.

Next, put a sign on your front lawn letting people know that you are a gun-free household.

Do all that. Go on. Do it.

If you do those things.... really do them... I might begin to listen to you.

Until then: You are just a hippie crackpot, trying to make the rest of us defenseless. To make us unarmed so we can't stop you when you push your agenda.

In other words: a BULLY.


P.S. Every bully I had to deal with, ended up in the hospital.

"None of you seem to understand. I'm not locked in here with you... YOU are locked in here with ME."




Dipshit. I'll tell you what.

Show us all where Niki said she wanted everyone - or ANYONE - completely disarmed.

Do all that. Go on. Do it.


Your entire argument is pulled straight out of your ass, which is a bit amazing, because your head is so huge, and already lodged firmly up there enough, I wouldn't have thought you'd have room for anything else.


You have presented what is probably the single stupidest argument ever made here. What you've said amounts to "If you say I can't have a tactical nuclear weapon, you're saying I can't butter my toast! WAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHH!!!! I'mma take my widdle ball and run home now!!!!"

You're a moron, Wulf. Everybody here is dumber for ever reading anything you write.

To put it in the simplest of terms, in a medium you can maybe understand if you can wipe the drool away from your chin before you drown in it...








"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence [sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero

"I was wrong" - Hero, 2012

Mitt Romney, introducing his running mate: "Join me in welcoming the next President of the United States, Paul Ryan!"

Rappy's response? "You're lying, gullible ( believing in some BS you heard on msnbc ) or hard of hearing."

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Friday, April 5, 2013 6:06 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by WULFENSTAR:
No prob Niki,

I know you live in an echo chamber.




That echo you hear? That's the sound bouncing around that incredibly empty noggin of yours, Wulfie.



"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence [sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero

"I was wrong" - Hero, 2012

Mitt Romney, introducing his running mate: "Join me in welcoming the next President of the United States, Paul Ryan!"

Rappy's response? "You're lying, gullible ( believing in some BS you heard on msnbc ) or hard of hearing."

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Saturday, April 6, 2013 9:31 AM

HERO


Quote:

Originally posted by Magonsdaughter:
Oh my heard the Rockets Red Glare booming from your post. Very patriotic. Thanks for your burst of national pride. Hope you feel all swell about the gun death stats now.


I regret every criminal or accidental gun death and celebrate every legal use of firearms. By comparison I've found my regrets far outnumbered.

I noticed you failed to mention your country of origin. Guess your feeling a bit ashamed. Don't be. Its ok to be from another country and to honor and celebrate your heritage here in America, the land that our liberty and firearms have made free and prosperous to accept your request to travel here to make a life for yourself.

I asked you where your from, I think its relevant. Also, why are you here? What was it that brought you to the land of the free and home of the brave?

H


Hero...must be right on all of this. ALL of the rest of us are wrong. Chrisisall, 2012

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Saturday, April 6, 2013 9:54 AM

KPO

Sometimes you own the libs. Sometimes, the libs own you.


Quote:

Lets do an experiment.

We both post signs outside our home and on Craigslist.

Mine says, "Owners armed, intruders will be shot...many, many times."

Yours says, "Owners have no weapons and do not trust the police. If you rob us, your safety is guaranteed."


Ok, right-wingers scrambling to change the issue away from gun homicide, to burglary. That's fairly predictable.

The key point here is that a good man with a gun - even a well trained one - is not always enough to stop (or deter) a determined murderer with a gun. Now let's remember that arming school teachers is the only solution people on the right are willing to countenance to stop psychopaths with assault weapons and high-capacity magazines from massacring schoolchildren.

It's not personal. It's just war.

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Saturday, April 6, 2013 11:31 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by Hero:
Quote:

Originally posted by Magonsdaughter:
Oh my heard the Rockets Red Glare booming from your post. Very patriotic. Thanks for your burst of national pride. Hope you feel all swell about the gun death stats now.


I regret every criminal or accidental gun death and celebrate every legal use of firearms. By comparison I've found my regrets far outnumbered.

I noticed you failed to mention your country of origin. Guess your feeling a bit ashamed. Don't be. Its ok to be from another country and to honor and celebrate your heritage here in America, the land that our liberty and firearms have made free and prosperous to accept your request to travel here to make a life for yourself.

I asked you where your from, I think its relevant. Also, why are you here? What was it that brought you to the land of the free and home of the brave?

H


Hero...must be right on all of this. ALL of the rest of us are wrong. Chrisisall, 2012





You do realize that the internet is not America... right? One needn't be in America, or an American to post here.

You really did know that, didn't you?




Sometimes "Hero" posts things that just leave one's jaw on the floor, they're so mind-numbingly dumb.




As to your "land of the free and home of the brave" - where do you think all those "pioneers" and "explorers" came from? England, Portugal, Spain, France, Germany - in other words, elsewhere.

And they were also coming here bent on genocide and oppression of the people already here. You tend to leave that part out of your rosy little "history" lesson, I notice.



"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence [sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero

"I was wrong" - Hero, 2012

Mitt Romney, introducing his running mate: "Join me in welcoming the next President of the United States, Paul Ryan!"

Rappy's response? "You're lying, gullible ( believing in some BS you heard on msnbc ) or hard of hearing."

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Saturday, April 6, 2013 11:36 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by kpo:
Quote:

Lets do an experiment.

We both post signs outside our home and on Craigslist.

Mine says, "Owners armed, intruders will be shot...many, many times."

Yours says, "Owners have no weapons and do not trust the police. If you rob us, your safety is guaranteed."


Ok, right-wingers scrambling to change the issue away from gun homicide, to burglary. That's fairly predictable.

The key point here is that a good man with a gun - even a well trained one - is not always enough to stop (or deter) a determined murderer with a gun.



Not only is it "not always" enough, it's RARELY enough.




I also like that "Hero" assumes that everyone who doesn't own guns doesn't trust the police. I wonder why he included that cute little line of horseshit in his hypothetical sign.


One thing that I *KNOW* my neighbors knew I had, well apart from any guns I might have had or they might have known about, was a dog. Your safety if you rob me is absolutely not guaranteed.



"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence [sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero

"I was wrong" - Hero, 2012

Mitt Romney, introducing his running mate: "Join me in welcoming the next President of the United States, Paul Ryan!"

Rappy's response? "You're lying, gullible ( believing in some BS you heard on msnbc ) or hard of hearing."

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Saturday, April 6, 2013 12:18 PM

HERO


Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:
You do realize that the internet is not America... right? One needn't be in America, or an American to post here.

You really did know that, didn't you?

Sometimes "Hero" posts things that just leave one's jaw on the floor, they're so mind-numbingly dumb.

As to your "land of the free and home of the brave" - where do you think all those "pioneers" and "explorers" came from? England, Portugal, Spain, France, Germany - in other words, elsewhere.

And they were also coming here bent on genocide and oppression of the people already here. You tend to leave that part out of your rosy little "history" lesson, I notice.


Well, clearly you have a problem with Magon who I thought raised a very good point that had yet to be addressed. In short Magon indicated that she was not from America and that because of this she was having trouble understanding America's gun culture. Apparently you want to ignore her contribution and force her agreement with your conclusions.

My response to her actually address what she said and to make the point that America's gun culture existed as a direct result of our colonial origins and can be traced through American history as a reflection of the our values despite our evolution to modern times.

Her country of origin is relevent because it gives a a specific frame of reference in order to explore the nature of guns in her culture, our culture, and the interaction between the two. For example, if Magon is from a rural village in China as oppsoed to a city in Norway then her experiance and understanding will differ dramatically. An Isreali would have a different view then a Mexican...and so on.

I asked what brought her here. I thought that was important because I sincerely doubt her answer is ''I came to America to be raped, robbed, and/or to see my children enslaved'. I can't speak to her reasons but I suspect that opportunity is at the heart of her reasoning...which asked the question, 'why is there opportunity here and not where she's from?" There is something about America that made it a good choice to come here and not stay there. I suspect that whatever it is that something is ultimately tied to American culture of which guns are a part.

So having read HER comment I felt it worthy of exporation...but I guess you diagree because in your mind America can do no right. Being part cherokee I understand your limited cultrual understanding of the colonization of America. One could suggest, using your logic, that some combination of Rome, the Germanic barbarians, and the Mongul horde is responsible for all of the problems you attribute to America. Really it all traces to the first guy who grunted to himself that he'd rather live 'other there' then 'over here' and knocked his cavegirl over the head and headed over the next hill. We've built a nation here, more perfect and one where prosperity and the blessings of liberty can be had by anyone. Now maybe that's not something your interested in, but that's your right...because of America.

H

Hero...must be right on all of this. ALL of the rest of us are wrong. Chrisisall, 2012

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Saturday, April 6, 2013 12:23 PM

HERO


Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:
[One thing that I *KNOW* my neighbors knew I had, well apart from any guns I might have had or they might have known about, was a dog. Your safety if you rob me is absolutely not guaranteed.


That's why the guy robbing you will bring a gun. Probably one that carries at least two bullets...so he's got one for you...and one for the dog...and, depending on his kind of gun, anywhere from 3-28 more just in case.

I love dogs. I have one and a foster. I can't believe you let that man kill your dog...

H

Hero...must be right on all of this. ALL of the rest of us are wrong. Chrisisall, 2012

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Saturday, April 6, 2013 1:50 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Yet another swing and a miss. Two, actually.

You're still operating under the idiotic notion that Magons is *IN* America because she's posting in English. You can't honestly be this stupid, can you?


Second, nope, my dog is just fine. The other guy, not so much. He never got in the house, because he decided it would be easier to jump the fence and break in through the glass back door. Only he forgot about the Dobermann in the back yard.

That was the first and only time anyone attempted to break in.



"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence [sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero

"I was wrong" - Hero, 2012

Mitt Romney, introducing his running mate: "Join me in welcoming the next President of the United States, Paul Ryan!"

Rappy's response? "You're lying, gullible ( believing in some BS you heard on msnbc ) or hard of hearing."

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Saturday, April 6, 2013 1:58 PM

FREMDFIRMA


Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:
Why have laws against child abuse or kiddie porn if those kinds of people are going to do it anyway? Why not just let them do what they're going to do. So some people get hurt - that's the cost of freedom! Even Frem must agree with that, right?


Mikey, thing is we ALREADY have laws in place which address the matter.
Adding more vaguely worded laws with very broad interpretations just begging for misuse isn't really an answer to it - addressing the root causes of why folks wanna shoot each other is a more appropriate use of time and resources.

And frankly, I resent the baiting, Mikey - I've pointed out the the deceit and hypocrisy involved in this matter cause there *IS* substantial deceit and hypocrisy, and to allow it to go unchallenged is both reckless and dangerous.
Which "side" commits it means naught to me, as I'll have at them both with equal fervor, and so one of them getting a free pass on it strikes me as flat out bullshit.

I also noted that the exact SAME logic is behind the push to restrict voting did I not ?
So why is it appropriate here and not there ?
Care to comment, then ?

-F

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Saturday, April 6, 2013 5:42 PM

HERO


Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:
Yet another swing and a miss. Two, actually.

You're still operating under the idiotic notion that Magons is *IN* America because she's posting in English. You can't honestly be this stupid, can you?


Second, nope, my dog is just fine. The other guy, not so much. He never got in the house, because he decided it would be easier to jump the fence and break in through the glass back door. Only he forgot about the Dobermann in the back yard.

That was the first and only time anyone attempted to break in.


Wow, quite a story. You must be truly gratefull...that the guy didn't have a gun. Cause otherwise your dog would be dead. I went shooting my new .40 cal Beretta PX Storm subcompact today. .40 will put a huge hole in a man...but by your reasoning would be completely useless against a dog.

As for your other issue...where is Magon? You have a point, one that is small an irrelevent to the larger issue. I reviewed the original post and she said she is from another country. She did not say she was in America. I believe her use of the word from implied she was no longer there, but I concede that its possible she's still there. Or she could be neither here nor there. Her posting in English was only relevent in that I understood what she wrote. Had she posted in French, Chinese, or ancient Sumarian...I admit I'd have probably not responded...cause its true...I only respond to postings in English.

By your reasoning...you are so stupid because you assumed she didnt write the original post here, then travel back there. What, they dont have planes where your from. Your face must be so red because you dont know where she is at any given moment...or me. I never said I was in America either. Maybe none of us are...which, by your reasoning, makes any discussion on the interaction of guns in our respective cultures completey useless. Because physical location is essential to talking about what our respective cultures think.

Out of respect for your limited imagination I will add a third question to my questions for Magon.

1. Where are you from?

2. Why did you come here? If you didnt come here I apologize for the misunderstanding.

3. Most important because without this there can be no further reasonable discusion between anyone on any issue ever...where are you now? Because certain people say we can't talk about where we're from unless we know where we are. Btw, I'm in Ohio...which is often considered in America. Ironically, I'm not from here...which by Kwicko's reasoning means I could be somewhere else.

H

Hero...must be right on all of this. ALL of the rest of us are wrong. Chrisisall, 2012

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Saturday, April 6, 2013 6:16 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by Hero:
Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:
Yet another swing and a miss. Two, actually.

You're still operating under the idiotic notion that Magons is *IN* America because she's posting in English. You can't honestly be this stupid, can you?


Second, nope, my dog is just fine. The other guy, not so much. He never got in the house, because he decided it would be easier to jump the fence and break in through the glass back door. Only he forgot about the Dobermann in the back yard.

That was the first and only time anyone attempted to break in.


Wow, quite a story. You must be truly gratefull...that the guy didn't have a gun. Cause otherwise your dog would be dead.



So your point is that if anyone has a gun, they absolutely MUST find something to kill with it? There exists in your mind no possibility that someone with a gun might choose not to shoot?

You've just made a great case for fewer people having guns, if only to cut down on the volume of gunfire flying around the country!


Quote:


I went shooting my new .40 cal Beretta PX Storm subcompact today. .40 will put a huge hole in a man...but by your reasoning would be completely useless against a dog.




Yup, you really are as dumb as I thought you were. Wow. I overestimated you. It's probably a wonder you can even remember to breathe.

Quote:


As for your other issue...where is Magon? You have a point, one that is small an irrelevent to the larger issue. I reviewed the original post and she said she is from another country. She did not say she was in America. I believe her use of the word from implied she was no longer there, but I concede that its possible she's still there. Or she could be neither here nor there. Her posting in English was only relevent in that I understood what she wrote. Had she posted in French, Chinese, or ancient Sumarian...I admit I'd have probably not responded...cause its true...I only respond to postings in English.

By your reasoning...you are so stupid because you assumed she didnt write the original post here, then travel back there. What, they dont have planes where your from. Your face must be so red because you dont know where she is at any given moment...or me. I never said I was in America either. Maybe none of us are...which, by your reasoning, makes any discussion on the interaction of guns in our respective cultures completey useless. Because physical location is essential to talking about what our respective cultures think.

Out of respect for your limited imagination I will add a third question to my questions for Magon.

1. Where are you from?

2. Why did you come here? If you didnt come here I apologize for the misunderstanding.

3. Most important because without this there can be no further reasonable discusion between anyone on any issue ever...where are you now? Because certain people say we can't talk about where we're from unless we know where we are. Btw, I'm in Ohio...which is often considered in America. Ironically, I'm not from here...which by Kwicko's reasoning means I could be somewhere else.

H

Hero...must be right on all of this. ALL of the rest of us are wrong. Chrisisall, 2012




*MY* limited imagination? Really? You're the dolt who thinks that anyone posting on a website must automatically be an American, or in America. That really shows how self-centered and egotistical you are. And how stupid, of course, but we've all seen that numerous times already.


Because YOU haven't been paying attention, because YOU can't wrap your head around Magons being in another country, you claim that's an indication that I have a limited imagination?


Dude, just stop. You're making yourself look even stupider than usual. Don't stop on my account, though - I'm actually laughing my ass off reading your posts. This is what I see when you post:



But by all means, carry on.



"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence [sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero

"I was wrong" - Hero, 2012

Mitt Romney, introducing his running mate: "Join me in welcoming the next President of the United States, Paul Ryan!"

Rappy's response? "You're lying, gullible ( believing in some BS you heard on msnbc ) or hard of hearing."

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Saturday, April 6, 2013 6:25 PM

MAGONSDAUGHTER


Quote:

Originally posted by Hero:

Well, clearly you have a problem with Magon who I thought raised a very good point that had yet to be addressed. In short Magon indicated that she was not from America and that because of this she was having trouble understanding America's gun culture. Apparently you want to ignore her contribution and force her agreement with your conclusions.

My response to her actually address what she said and to make the point that America's gun culture existed as a direct result of our colonial origins and can be traced through American history as a reflection of the our values despite our evolution to modern times.

Her country of origin is relevent because it gives a a specific frame of reference in order to explore the nature of guns in her culture, our culture, and the interaction between the two. For example, if Magon is from a rural village in China as oppsoed to a city in Norway then her experiance and understanding will differ dramatically. An Isreali would have a different view then a Mexican...and so on.

I asked what brought her here. I thought that was important because I sincerely doubt her answer is ''I came to America to be raped, robbed, and/or to see my children enslaved'. I can't speak to her reasons but I suspect that opportunity is at the heart of her reasoning...which asked the question, 'why is there opportunity here and not where she's from?" There is something about America that made it a good choice to come here and not stay there. I suspect that whatever it is that something is ultimately tied to American culture of which guns are a part.

So having read HER comment I felt it worthy of exporation...but I guess you diagree because in your mind America can do no right. Being part cherokee I understand your limited cultrual understanding of the colonization of America. One could suggest, using your logic, that some combination of Rome, the Germanic barbarians, and the Mongul horde is responsible for all of the problems you attribute to America. Really it all traces to the first guy who grunted to himself that he'd rather live 'other there' then 'over here' and knocked his cavegirl over the head and headed over the next hill. We've built a nation here, more perfect and one where prosperity and the blessings of liberty can be had by anyone. Now maybe that's not something your interested in, but that's your right...because of America.




Hero, you do realise that you can post on this forum from countries other than the US? That there are those of here who are actually sitting at our computers who are outside the US right now. I know that might blow your mind to know that other countries exist in the world where

a) people own computers
b) are not bound by tyranny through lack of guns and able, yay even without the 2nd amendment protecting our rights, to post freely on the internet.

So in answer to your question, I live on the outskirts of Melbourne, Australia. If you look back through the threads, there is another one about a protest against McDOnalds. That's my town right there.

I came here - to this forum - because I loved firefly, and the other forum I was at got kind of shitty.

In the past, um 10 years or so, I've talked to enough Americans on the internet to understand the basis for their beliefs around gun ownership but I do not now, nor will I ever comprehend what seems to basically a stupid argument to me. I do think that the FF would be turning in their graves to see that part of the constitution misrepresented and misused, and disastrous consequences of that misrepresentation.

Nevertheless, I point out that I am from another country simply because your laws don't matter to me personally, other than the sorrow I feel for the victims of gun crime in your country. Additionally, I point it out because I am the most gun adverse person on this forum, but again, my views are not affecting US citizens because I have no impact on your laws (so I'm not trying to take your 'freedoms' *coughbullshitcough* away from you)

I went to the Comedy Festival in town last night. Saw Rich Hall, a US comedian, great one too. He said that the question he was most asked outside of the US was about the gun laws, and he had to reply that he didn't have a clue why it seemed so hard to comprehend the 'lots of guns in circulation= increased gun deaths' equation. So I quess that a lot of Americans think like I do as well, just their voices are drowned out by the patriotic BS spouted by nutjobs like the NRA and Fox.

Hope that answers all your questions.

Edit, Although I'd love to visit America again for a holiday, I have no desire to live there and one the reasons would be due to the amount of violent crime, particularly gun crime. I don't want my son to go to a school where you need metal detectors at the doors, where there might be armed guards, or armed teachers. Sounds like a prison to me.

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Sunday, April 7, 2013 2:18 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by FREMDFIRMA:
Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:
Why have laws against child abuse or kiddie porn if those kinds of people are going to do it anyway? Why not just let them do what they're going to do. So some people get hurt - that's the cost of freedom! Even Frem must agree with that, right?


Mikey, thing is we ALREADY have laws in place which address the matter.
Adding more vaguely worded laws with very broad interpretations just begging for misuse isn't really an answer to it - addressing the root causes of why folks wanna shoot each other is a more appropriate use of time and resources.

And frankly, I resent the baiting, Mikey - I've pointed out the the deceit and hypocrisy involved in this matter cause there *IS* substantial deceit and hypocrisy, and to allow it to go unchallenged is both reckless and dangerous.
Which "side" commits it means naught to me, as I'll have at them both with equal fervor, and so one of them getting a free pass on it strikes me as flat out bullshit.

I also noted that the exact SAME logic is behind the push to restrict voting did I not ?
So why is it appropriate here and not there ?
Care to comment, then ?

-F




Frem, you're every bit as guilty of the same "baiting" you accuse others of. You've taken the "any gun regulation is a gun grab!" pedestal here yourself a time or seven.






"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence [sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero

"I was wrong" - Hero, 2012

Mitt Romney, introducing his running mate: "Join me in welcoming the next President of the United States, Paul Ryan!"

Rappy's response? "You're lying, gullible ( believing in some BS you heard on msnbc ) or hard of hearing."

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Sunday, April 7, 2013 2:21 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by Magonsdaughter:


I don't want my son to go to a school where you need metal detectors at the doors, where there might be armed guards, or armed teachers. Sounds like a prison to me.





I've got the feeling that this is entirely by design. Look at the growth in school privatization and in for-profit prisons, and you can see that such schools are really just training grounds to get the kids used to being under armed guard, lock and key. It's just one of the ways conservatives are getting around minimum wage laws - put people in private prisons, and you can pay them pennies per day for the same work you'd have to pay minimum wage or more for on the outside!



"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence [sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero

"I was wrong" - Hero, 2012

Mitt Romney, introducing his running mate: "Join me in welcoming the next President of the United States, Paul Ryan!"

Rappy's response? "You're lying, gullible ( believing in some BS you heard on msnbc ) or hard of hearing."

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Sunday, April 7, 2013 2:59 AM

HERO


Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:
So your point is that if anyone has a gun, they absolutely MUST find something to kill with it? There exists in your mind no possibility that someone with a gun might choose not to shoot?

You've just made a great case for fewer people having guns, if only to cut down on the volume of gunfire flying around the country!


Actually my point is that a dog is little protection from a person with a gun.

Sure, they might choose not to use it. They could also be breaking into your home with good intentions...perhaps to leave you flowers and candy.

I guess you are ok leaving it up to them. The criminal intent on committing a burglary you are now trusting with your life and the life of your family. I guess it makes sence. You'd rather have the armed intruder making all the life and death decisions since you are afraid to trust yourself with that responsibility.

H

Hero...must be right on all of this. ALL of the rest of us are wrong. Chrisisall, 2012

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Sunday, April 7, 2013 3:22 AM

HERO


Quote:

Originally posted by Magonsdaughter:
Hero, you do realise that you can post on this forum from countries other than the US? That there are those of here who are actually sitting at our computers who are outside the US right now. I know that might blow your mind to know that other countries exist in the world where

So in answer to your question, I live on the outskirts of Melbourne, Australia. If you look back through the threads, there is another one about a protest against McDOnalds. That's my town right there.

In the past, um 10 years or so, I've talked to enough Americans on the internet to understand the basis for their beliefs around gun ownership but I do not now, nor will I ever comprehend what seems to basically a stupid argument to me. I do think that the FF would be turning in their graves to see that part of the constitution misrepresented and misused, and disastrous consequences of that misrepresentation.

Additionally, I point it out because I am the most gun adverse person on this forum, but again, my views are not affecting US citizens because I have no impact on your laws (so I'm not trying to take your 'freedoms' *coughbullshitcough* away from you)

Edit, Although I'd love to visit America again for a holiday, I have no desire to live there and one the reasons would be due to the amount of violent crime, particularly gun crime. I don't want my son to go to a school where you need metal detectors at the doors, where there might be armed guards, or armed teachers. Sounds like a prison to me.



Thank you for your insights. I do appreciate the observations on our respective cultural view of gun ownership.

I wont speak to you on the silly 'in' or 'from' issue. We now know where you are, although you failed to say you were from Australia, but you've implied it and your claiming that your Australian culture forms the basis of your beliefs about guns in your country and ours. I respect that.

You said our founders would feel that we have misunderstood and misused the 2nd Amendment. I disagree. Our founders included soldiers, explorers, and hunters. These men had fought a long and bloody war of independence. I'm not sure if you are aware but the first battles of that war at Lexington and Concord were fought because of a British expedition to disarms the local militias. In any event our founders designed our govt with an extensive series of specific power divisions and restrictions among the States, the Federal govt, and the people. `If you read their writing on the subject you see a great fear of the power given to the Federal govt. They feared a Federal tyranny so much it threatened to stop us from successfully forming our govt. As a compromise they agreed to pass a Bill of Rights to codify certain liberties and power. The 2nd Amendment was specifically placed in the Bill of Rights as a final check upon the power of the Federal govt. The idea being that universally armed citizens could oppose any sort of national Army and prevent a tyrant from imposing his will and subverting our liberty. This is not mere conjecture...its what they wrote in the Federalist papers and other contemporary documents.

I would suggest you read the Bill of Rights with this in mind...'why would they put this in the Bill of Rights?'

For example, not quartering of soldiers in houses? That makes no sense...until you remember that's what the British did. The right to free speech? The British shut down papers and arrested people who spoke against the King. Search and seizure? The British busted into homes and took what they wanted. Nearly every part of the Bill of Rights has a basis in the historical actions of the tyrannical govt we'd just fought off.

I will now take some time to read about Australia's gun culture before I make any more comments on the subject.

H

Hero...must be right on all of this. ALL of the rest of us are wrong. Chrisisall, 2012

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Sunday, April 7, 2013 3:48 AM

MAL4PREZ


LOL! And you're supposed to be a lawyer? Shouldn't lawyers be observant? It's no secret that Magons in from down under. That's come up plenty of times over the years.

This is what I think what the gun thing is really about: American fear and insecurity. Fear of being victimized by some scary Other, and insecurity that maybe every American isn't automatically superior to everyone else in the world so we better come up with something to help us believe that we are. Don't fuck with us or we'll shoot you. Yeah, that makes us feel high and mighty.

That's just silly, and I refuse to live like that. I don't obsess over locking every door. I figure that the vast majority of people out there just want to live their lives and aren't interested in me or my precious things. I leave my door unlocked when I go jogging, and only lock my car if my computer's in it. I've lived in "scary" neighborhoods and walked alone at night. Without a gun.

Sure, there's a chance that something bad could happen, but there's a bigger chance that something bad will happen every time I get in my car. I'm not going to freak out over it, nor am I going to live in a little cave of my fear.

That is my freedom. I choose not to be trapped by fear of the unknown. A large chunk of America (not coincidentally, the red part) is not so free.


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Sunday, April 7, 2013 3:54 AM

MAL4PREZ


Back to the OP:

And still no one has addressed the point: this DA was armed and trained and ready and expected trouble, yet still was killed.

So you can sit on your big arsenal and think that makes you safe, but your attacker chooses the time and line of attack. This is not the movies; the bad guys won't attack at a convenient time and place and miss you with a dozen shots while conveniently keeping themselves in your crosshairs.

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