REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

The Citadel: Private Idaho Community Being Planned For ‘American Patriots’ Only

POSTED BY: NIKI2
UPDATED: Monday, January 21, 2013 22:45
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Wednesday, January 16, 2013 10:36 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


This country gets weirder by the day. Anyone heard about this?
Quote:


The Citadel is an up-and-coming planned community in Idaho. Although liberals and socialists are allowed to apply for a home spot, the developers are very upfront by warning potential residents that life in the community will likely be incompatible with progressive views.

Those who choose (and are approved after application and formal meeting) to live in the Citadel in Idaho community will be “bound together” by patriotism, a belief in American exceptionalism, pride in liberty, and physical preparedness skills, the Daily Caller notes.

A description of the Citadel Community posted on the Idaho group’s website reads:

“The Citadel Community will house between 3,500 and 7,000 patriotic American families who agree that being prepared for the emergencies of life and being proficient with the American icon of liberty, the Rifle — are prudent measures. There will be no HOA. There will be no recycling police and no local ordinance enforcers from city hall.”

] http://www.inquisitr.com/480605/the-citadel-private-idaho-community-be
ing-planned-for-american-patiots-only/
]

Some of the terms spelled out include everyone 13 and up must be proficient with a rifle, handgun and AR-15, and each house must have enough food, water and essentials to last a year.

Their website is at http://iiicitadel.com/ . I can think of a few here who would be perfect for them, but all in all...
Scary!

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Wednesday, January 16, 2013 10:46 AM

BRENDA


Hi Nikki,

I've not heard about this and I just don't really know what to say. Except that I hope Idaho doesn't let it go through. That is insane.

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Wednesday, January 16, 2013 11:00 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


It's insane, but unfortunately it's right up Idaho's alley. Given the mood in this country today, I suppose I shouldn't have been surprised. And I agree; for me, too, "there are no words..."

p.s. There's only one "n" in Niki. Don't worry, everybody does it. ;o)

Tit for tat got us where we are today. If we want to be grownups, we need to resist the ugliness. If we each did, this would be a better reflection on Firefly and a more welcome place. I will try.

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Wednesday, January 16, 2013 11:07 AM

AGENTROUKA


Even the individual neighborhoods within the double-walled complex are separated by walls and "defensible". Just what exactly are they afraid of?

Once they are inside, will anyone be allowed to... leave?

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Wednesday, January 16, 2013 11:10 AM

STORYMARK


They're prepping for the zombie apocalypse, clearly.

My question - once they're all inside, how do we launch it into space?




Excuse me while I soak in all these sweet, sweet conservative tears.

"We will never have the elite, smart people on our side." -- Rick "Frothy" Santorum

"Goram it kid, let's frak this thing and go home! Engage!"

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Wednesday, January 16, 2013 11:34 AM

BYTEMITE


They neglect the fact that zombies tend to arise in graveyards and don't breathe, therefore most species rely on tunnel digging.

The town is proposed for Idaho. I suspect an inadequate water supply from groundwater pumping as they propose, but I also suspect the town will quickly become a mormon theocracy.

An arms factory is indicated, but no mines or forests near or within the boundaries of the town to supply necessary metals, wood, and gunpowder are referenced.

The walls are an inadequate defense. It is puzzling. Castle walls of the sort they are depicting were actually rendered obsolete by the invention of gunpowder.

Not only does their defense plan not work, but they appear to have a deficit in their understanding of history.

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Wednesday, January 16, 2013 12:19 PM

FREMDFIRMA



I think it's ridiculous, but if they wanna do it they got a right to.

My concern is the SPLC (Southern Poverty Law Center) and both their hatred of people like this and incestuous relationship with Government leading to contrived charges and accusations designed to bring about another Waco type incident, we don't need another one of those.

-F

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Wednesday, January 16, 2013 1:05 PM

RIONAEIRE

Beir bua agus beannacht


I agree with Frem, they have the right to do that if they so choose. I just don't know what they'll do if (gasp) someone has disabilities or someone births a child with them, our genetics are only getting worse after all. I should hope that their response would be that the community rallies around and looks after each other in a supportive positive way, living out their stated belief that families should take care of each other and communities should be self sufficient, which means looking after their own. But I fear that won't be what happens. I reckon people will be kicked out etc. But maybe that will be better for the kicked out people in the long run? But kicking people out of things is mean.

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya

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Wednesday, January 16, 2013 1:32 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by Storymark:
They're prepping for the zombie apocalypse, clearly.

My question - once they're all inside, how do we launch it into space?




No need. Just put up a wall, or use their own - it's a "citadel", right? Oh, and cut the public roads in and out of it while we're at it - wouldn't want 'em benefiting from any of that librul socialism, would we?






"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence [sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero

"I was wrong" - Hero, 2012

Mitt Romney, introducing his running mate: "Join me in welcoming the next President of the United States, Paul Ryan!"

Rappy's response? "You're lying, gullible ( believing in some BS you heard on msnbc ) or hard of hearing."

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Wednesday, January 16, 2013 1:35 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by BYTEMITE:

Not only does their defense plan not work, but they appear to have a deficit in their understanding of history.




I know you're only talking about this particular group of nutters, but really that's the most succinct assessment of the right-wingnuts I've heard in ages.



"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence [sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero

"I was wrong" - Hero, 2012

Mitt Romney, introducing his running mate: "Join me in welcoming the next President of the United States, Paul Ryan!"

Rappy's response? "You're lying, gullible ( believing in some BS you heard on msnbc ) or hard of hearing."

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Wednesday, January 16, 2013 3:15 PM

BRENDA


Quote:

Originally posted by Niki2:
It's insane, but unfortunately it's right up Idaho's alley. Given the mood in this country today, I suppose I shouldn't have been surprised. And I agree; for me, too, "there are no words..."

p.s. There's only one "n" in Niki. Don't worry, everybody does it. ;o)

Tit for tat got us where we are today. If we want to be grownups, we need to resist the ugliness. If we each did, this would be a better reflection on Firefly and a more welcome place. I will try.



Thanks for the correction Niki. Sometimes my brain sees more letters than there are. :)

I never thought of Idaho, started thinking of Utah for this kind of nuttiness. No, there are no words for that level of crazy. I feel sorry for everyone who joins that "group"

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Wednesday, January 16, 2013 3:17 PM

BRENDA


Quote:

Originally posted by BYTEMITE:


Not only does their defense plan not work, but they appear to have a deficit in their understanding of history.



None of these types of groups understand history. History lessons are for the left-wing and liberal types. These people don't need a stinkin' history lessons.

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Thursday, January 17, 2013 9:35 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Quote:

I just don't know what they'll do if (gasp) someone has disabilities or someone births a child with them

I'm sure they will allow no "imperfect" human.
Quote:

But I fear that won't be what happens. I reckon people will be kicked out etc.

Bingo.
Quote:

My question - once they're all inside, how do we launch it into space?

Byte, you went into it as if it were planned by thoughtful, logical people. Do you see the flaw in your reasoning?

Like I said, Brenda, don't think twice about it. Most people do that...I've also gotten Nickie, Nicky, Nikkie, as well as "Nick" on line when people don't grasp I'm female!

As to Idaho...sigh. My husband's family is there--thank gawd he moved out here to go to college so their attitude didn't stick. A few comments on Idaho (some by IDAHOANS!):
Quote:

people in Idaho, the most red state of all, as well a most lily-white state, presumptive home of the Aryan Nations
Quote:

I'm smack dab in the middle of fundie hell, in a cabin in central Idaho flyfishing. There is an unsecure router where the neighbor lady home schools the towns 5 children. I kid you not, I may not make it out alive. About 500 yards from the entrance to the cabin rental place is a sign about 50 feet tall that proclaims the coming of this Yaheh guy. It says were all doomed or something. It's so freaky that I'm going to stop and take picture of it tomorrow and upload it so you can see it. About everywhere you look there are these hand painted signs about the world ending and stuff.

I went down to the river flyfishing today and there were guys with giant rifles shoot cans and stuff. I'm no coward, I just don't think I look good in my blue Obama hat. It looks better under the seat

I really do hope to get that picture, it will freak you right out man. Giant Yahweh sign in a yard filled with wrecked hoopties (cars).

I forgot to add, one of the kids being home schooled is leaving this weekend to go to his church camp. I asked him what they did and he said our church has these military rangers who teach them how to survive. I asked him, "Army Rangers?" and he said, "No, our church has it's own army". Man I've got no words.....

Michael Harris, visiting the dangerous places so you don't have to.


From a message board:
Quote:

Idaho = Potato. Period
--that's not fair. idaho also has skinheads and crazies.


and they do, especially skineads:
Quote:

People already are arriving in Boise to attend Hammerfest 2012....the Hammerskin Nation was founded in 1987. group’s first chapter, the Confederate Hammerskins, “intended to set the standard for skinheads in the U.S.,” according to the group’s website.

Steeped in symbolism, the Hammerskin movement is characterized by clothing, memorabilia and tattoos adorned with the “marching hammers” — crossed red and black hammers that are “a symbol of strength, pride and solidarity” — and the numbers 14 and 88.

The number 14 is a reference to a 14-word statement by white power pioneer David Lane: “We must secure the existence of our people and a future for white children.” The number 88 stands for double use of the eighth letter of the alphabet, or HH, an abbreviation for “Heil Hitler.” http://www.idahostatesman.com/2012/09/29/2291638/few-details-on-hammer
fest.html
]
Real estate ad: "nazi compound (Hayden, Hayden Lake, Declo: live in, racist, dental)" You gotta love it! But it's not really funny, beyond that:
Quote:

From the 1970s until 2001, the neo-Nazi Aryan Nations had its headquarters in a 20-acre (8.1 ha) compound at Hayden Lake. Victoria Keenan and her son, Jason, were attacked by Aryan Nations guards in 1999. Bullets struck the Keenan's car several times then the car crashed and an Aryan member held the Keenans at gunpoint.

They won the compound itself in their legal battle (!), and subsequently
Quote:

A silver bust of Hitler and stained-glass swastikas adorned the ''church,'' and Nazi flags flew over the guard tower. German shepherds patrolled the grounds. And for 28 years, ever since he moved to the woods of Northern Idaho to escape what he once called the ''alien scum'' in Southern California, Richard Butler held sway as the self-proclaimed pastor of the Aryan Nations.

That was the past at Mr. Butler's 20-acre compound near Hayden Lake, Idaho. The future, it seems, will be very different. Just weeks after Mr. Butler was forced by the courts to turn over the compound to a mother and son who were beaten by young Aryan Nations members there, an Internet millionaire said today that he had bought it from the victims.

With their blessing and that of Gov. Dirk Kempthorne and other state and local leaders, he said, he planned to dedicate the compound as an education and conference center for human-rights issues.

The millionaire, Greg Carr, an Idaho native who is the founder and former chairman of the Internet service Prodigy, said he and others had first thought of having a giant fire at the compound. They would burn down the church and other buildings and a shed on the grounds that still contains Nazi flags, copies of ''Mein Kampf,'' weapons and racist posters and flyers

That would have been too easy, he said. ''We're not just going to tear the place down and pretend it never happened and say, 'There, we've cleaned up our image as a state,' '' Mr. Carr said today. ''We're going to leave it there and acknowledge that this kind of hatred still exists and that we'll battle against it. The center will be an acknowledgment of the fact that we've got work to do.''

Yet there is still plenty of evidence of white supremacist groups in Idaho, a state where barely half of 1 percent of its people are black and few Jews live as well. Boise's public-access television station is about to run two new white supremacist shows. And the Aryan Nations' leader, the 82-year-old Mr. Butler, is still around. Vincent Bertollini, a millionaire investor who moved to north Idaho and became one of Mr. Butler's staunchest supporters, has bought Mr. Butler a small bungalow in the town of Hayden, not far from the old compound. http://www.nytimes.com/2001/03/07/us/new-future-for-idaho-aryan-nation
s-compound.html


Now, in fairness, the skinheads/white supremicists are only a VERY small portion of the Idaho population. And Northern Idaho itself is absolutely GORGEOUS (especially around Coeur d'Alene, which I'm sure Brenda you know means "Heart of Alene", but which most Americans pronounce/spell "Cordalene") . Southern Idaho, eh, not so much.

There. Everything you need to know about Idaho's crazies, or at least enough! Utah ain't got NOTHIN' on Idaho, trust me!

Tit for tat got us where we are today. If we want to be grownups, we need to resist the ugliness. If we each did, this would be a better reflection on Firefly and a more welcome place. I will try.

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Thursday, January 17, 2013 9:48 AM

BYTEMITE


No need to tell me. I lived in Southern Idaho for six years before I moved to Utah. That would be where I bit a Mormon girl and they tried to stone me.

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Thursday, January 17, 2013 10:14 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Hell, I could go on about Idaho all day! This one gave me a giggle, however:
Quote:

Note To Skinheads: “Read Label Before Opening A Can Of Whupass”

A North Idaho Skinhead who allegedly threatened to stab a black man has entered a “no contest” plea to a hate crime charge and become the virtual poster child for STUPID BIGOTS.”

Prosecutors said that Daren Abbey, a self-proclaimed skinhead sporting neo-Nazi tats threatened to stab a black man, saying “blacks were not welcome in Bayview and he had better leave before something happened,” according to police. Abbey then allegedly poked the victim in the chest, but neglected to read the message on the man’s T-shirt: “Spokane Boxing Club Champion.”
decade after the dissolution of the Aryan Nations compound in northern Idaho and the arrest of the Montana Freemen, white supremacists, far-right militias and radical patriots have revived their dream of a homeland in the Northwest.

In 2010, residents in several parts of Idaho woke to find Easter eggs tossed on their lawns — courtesy of the not-dead-yet Aryan Nations. The eggs contained jelly beans and solicitations to "take back our country and make it great, clean, decent and beautiful once again."

In October, a federal jury convicted Spokane-area resident Wayde Kurt of firearms violations in a case prosecutors said stemmed from Kurt's membership in the white supremacist group Vanguard Kindred.

In a sentencing memorandum, federal prosecutors said Kurt discussed with an FBI informant a plan for what he called an act of terrorism "of the worst kind," comparable to the Oklahoma City federal building bombing, that "would mean a death sentence if he is caught."

"The defendant stated that he needed to make sure that everyone is fed up with [President] Obama," the memo says. http://articles.latimes.com/2012/feb/09/nation/la-na-mlk-bomb-20120209 Winkler, White Supremacist Idaho Sheriff Candidate, Hosts Cross Burning Event

Shaun Winkler, a white supremacist in Idaho running as a Republican for Bonner County sheriff, is defending his recent cross burning ceremony, after having invited members of the media to attend the event last week.

Winkler (claimed) the ritual has Scottish roots dating back hundreds of years, but his status as a Ku Klux Klan imperial wizard and his candid admissions of racial and religious prejudice suggest that the decision to burn the cross may take inspiration from a more recent and ugly practice.

Winkler is one of the remaining members of a diminished, but still active, Aryan Nations presence in Idaho. Democratic state Rep. Cherie Buckner-Webb, the first black woman to serve in Idaho's state legislature, faced numerous racist attacks from the KKK and other white supremacist groups during her campaign. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/05/10/shaun-winkler-idaho-cross-bur
ning_n_1506357.html
by a cadre of local law enforcement, including Boise, Caldwell, Meridian and Nampa police, U.S. Attorney Wendy Olson announced Tuesday afternoon that a federal grand jury has handed down indictments of 21 members of the Aryan Knights gang, a white supremacist gang operating in and out of Idaho prisons.

Law enforcement charged 12 current inmates in Idaho prisons, and arrested five more people this morning. Four more individuals remain at-large. The 21 are charged with distributing methamphetamine and possessing firearms.

"With these indictments and arrests, we have made the streets safer and weakened the operations of the Aryan Knights," said Olson. http://www.boiseweekly.com/CityDesk/archives/2012/09/18/idaho-white-su
premacist-gang-slapped-with-gun-drug-indictments
the fall of 1995, following six months of travel, the duo settled in Sandpoint, Idaho. "We crossed the bridge into Sandpoint and said, 'Voila, this is it!'" Bertollini told a reporter from the Spokane Spokesman-Review.

Why did Story and Bertollini choose Sandpoint? "North Idaho was selected for its clean air, beautiful scenery, quiet life style, recreation, lack of crowds, low cost of living, low violent crime," they write, "but above all, more than 98 percent of North Idaho's population is of the Adamic White Aryan people."

Extremists associated with the Aryan Nations paramilitary Identity group are particularly fond of this scenario. The late Robert Miles, once the Midwest coordinator for that group, urged white supremacists to move to the Pacific Northwest to form a whites-only nation in the states of Washington, Idaho, Montana, Wyoming and Oregon.

...encouraged whites to build a "national racist state" in the region. Many violent extremist criminals have affiliated themselves with Aryan Nations, including Buford Furrow, who attacked a Jewish daycare center in Los Angeles in the summer of 1999, and members of the murderous white supremacist terrorist gang, The Order.

The Identity group America's Promise Ministries, led by Dave Barley, is located in Sandpoint. In 1996, three of Barley's supremacist congregants went on a terror spree in nearby Washington State, bombing a newspaper plant and a Planned Parenthood clinic and twice robbing the same bank. Each was convicted on eight counts of robbery and bomb making.

During their first few years in Sandpoint, Story and Bertollini did not draw public attention to their beliefs. In December 1996, Joyce Riley, a regular lecturer at the numerous Preparedness Expos that cater to anti-government "patriots," gave two lectures in Sandpoint promoted by America's Promise Ministries. Her speeches were described at length in two major extremist publications, The Jubilee and The Spotlight. Bertollini later admitted that he and Story bankrolled the Riley presentations, but did so covertly. It was not until two years later that they stepped into the public spotlight.

In September 1998, envelopes from the 11th Hour Remnant Messenger were mailed to approximately 9,000 Idaho addresses. These envelopes contained an introductory letter, an anti-Semitic booklet and a poster explaining the group's Identity beliefs.

Measuring 6 feet by 3 feet, the full-color Identity poster, titled The Adamic Race: Adam's Pure Blood Seedline, is one of the most professional pieces of white supremacist propaganda in recent memory. Bertollini has said that the posters cost $9.45 each to print, fold and mail. The poster traces the activities of "Adam's Pure Blood Seedline" (the descendants of God, from Adam through Jesus to the "Aryan" people) and "Satan's Chosen People" (the descendants of Satan, from Cain through Esau to "Jewry") over the course of more than 6,000 years. Alongside the illustrated chart is the text of Bible passages Story and Bertollini use to support their claims.

According to the 11th Hour Remnant Messenger, "blacks, orientals, and other races," unlike "Aryans," do not have souls. These "Pre-Adamic" people intermarried with the Jews, producing "a mongrel, hybrid, a non-race." Meanwhile, most of the "Aryan" people, who Story and Bertollini believe are "God's Chosen People" as described in the Bible, migrated from the Middle East to "Central and Western Europe" and finally to America.

Story and Bertollini believe that America has become a "dictatorship," enslaved to "Jewish Communism." They predict that there will be a third World War, followed by the migration of the "White race" from America to Israel. Eventually, "The War of All Wars!" between the "White" race and the Jewish, Satanic "non-race" will lead to "Armageddon," or World War IV, resulting in the victory of the "White" race and the unending reign of Jesus Christ over his "White" people. Lots more at http://www.adl.org/tycoons/The_Move.asp]
Needless to say, I could go on and on. If you think I have a "thing" for Idaho, you're right. I saw its attitude clearly when Jim's younger brother lived with us; his bigotry toward Native Americans shocked me. I hate racism more than maybe anything else in the world (tho' probably less the pendophiles and those who physically abuse children and animals), so Idaho and my husband having come from there, and having seen it for myself, especially gets to me.

REMEMBER: These assholes represent a small portion of the Idaho, or even Northern Idaho, population. And the others there resent the hell out of them, are embarrassed by them, and don't want them around. Neither Idaho nor Utah, nor any other state, is a "white supremicist state", they are everywhere. And on the rise, ever since Obama was elected:
Quote:

Hate Groups Grow as Racial Tipping Point Changes Demographics

The number of radical hate groups and militias has exploded in recent years in reaction to the changing makeup of America

"White supremacist groups have been having a meltdown since the census bureau predicted that non-Hispanic whites would lose the majority by 2050," said Mark Potok. "The demographic change in this country is the single most important driver in the growth of hate groups and extremist groups over the last few years."

For white supremacist and radical right-wing groups, the data is especially troubling, and made all the more apparent by the fact that a black man was elected president, Potok said.

the number of radical "anti-government" militia groups increased from 150 to 1,274 during the years of the Obama presidency. There have been more homegrown domestic terrorism attacks by right-wing groups than by international terrorists during his presidency as well, Potok noted.

Marilyn Mayo, co-director of the Anti-Defamation League's Center on Extremism, said white supremacist groups have increased their efforts to recruit and plot based on the changing racial makeup of America.

Mayo cited two recent plots by radical groups in Florida and Minnesota that involved stockpiling weapons for racially-motivated attacks against other Americans.

"These are just examples of people who feel like they are at a point where they have to take action because soon whites will lose power and authority and they have to protect the white race from extinction," she said.More at http://abcnews.go.com/US/militias-hate-groups-grow-response-minority-p
opulation-boom/story?id=16370136


I think the election of Obama, more than the changing demographics, has had the most to do with the rise of both these groups and right-wing racism as a whole. We're in for some bad times in this country. Maybe Obama's election was too soon in our evolution; maybe it was just what we needed to move forward. I don't know.



Tit for tat got us where we are today. If we want to be grownups, we need to resist the ugliness. If we each did, this would be a better reflection on Firefly and a more welcome place. I will try.

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Thursday, January 17, 2013 10:16 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Oh, Byte, I LOVE it! Hope you left a mark! Southern Idaho isn't nearly as bad as Northern Idaho, but yeah, neither place, nor Utah, are anywhere I want to be near! Gawd, you moved from Idaho to Utah?? I don't know whether that's a step down or just "more of the same"! I hope you don't still live there...?

Brenda: My apologies for running off at the...keyboard. I'll stop now. ;o)

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Thursday, January 17, 2013 10:27 AM

BYTEMITE


She was in the middle of a mocking rant to all her horrible hypocrite spoiled brat mormon mean girl friends about how I'm a satanic worshiper and I'm going to hell. There was really only one reasonable reaction to that.

The next day she sneered at me that she'd gotten both a tetanus and a rabies shot. I flipped her off. That was the end of that.

That was also the place where in kindergarten everyone was sure I was a lesbian...

What have you done? I repressed those memories for a reason.

Quote:

I hope you don't still live there...?


Salt Lake City is okay, you wouldn't think it but you can actually ignore the church here. And the mountains are 5 minutes away by car and about thirty minutes on foot. The only bad part really is the inversions and air quality some days.

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Thursday, January 17, 2013 12:09 PM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


What an idjit! Well, of course "going to hell" would be what comes to their mind first...!

Do kids in kindergarten even KNOW what a lesbian is?? I sure didn't! But then, times have changed...

Tit for tat got us where we are today. If we want to be grownups, we need to resist the ugliness. If we each did, this would be a better reflection on Firefly and a more welcome place. I will try.

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Thursday, January 17, 2013 12:18 PM

BYTEMITE


Oh, intolerant, yes. Idiot, not really, she might've been a brat but she knew exactly what she was about. We're talking someone who five year old me thought was particularly bitchy, and five-year old me would readily acknowledge *I* am a bitch.

(five year old me also had no compunctions against swearing or rude gestures as appropriate. Which was all the time. I've mentioned I was a tom boy and most of my friends were boys, yeah?)

Quote:

Do kids in kindergarten even KNOW what a lesbian is??


Do they ever. You tell another girl you wanna be their sister and everyone gets IDEAS and makes fun of you behind your back.

But it goes further back than you might know, my mother talks about how people teased her in grade school because "leslie" shortens to "lez" and her middle name was "gay." She's in her fifties.

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Thursday, January 17, 2013 1:01 PM

BRENDA


Thanks for the lesson Niki.

Don't think Idaho would be a good place for someone like me. :) I look European but I do have some American Indian roots. Groups like seem to like to think that they can pinpoint a person's racial heritage by looks. Can't really with me.

So maybe that would be fun. *L* Walk amongst them and them not knowing.

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Thursday, January 17, 2013 1:03 PM

BRENDA


No worries Niki about the overflow. Been known to do that myself with a keyboard and in RL. *L*

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Friday, January 18, 2013 1:57 AM

FREMDFIRMA



Yanno, the notion of a collective of racist, intolerant pricks moving to some remote location AWAY from more rational people and limiting their interactions doesn't strike me as something I'd be especially inclined to stop...

Besides the SPLC trying to provoke a disaster, them being Templars of the worst order and damn near as bad in their own way as the folks they got such a grudge about, the other concern I might have about it is whether they'd allow someone disillusioned with them to LEAVE.
Cause if not, then there's cause to start something.

Concern number three is a repeat of Elohim City, where most of the "management" winds up consisting of federal agents planted to create/provoke an incident and stirring that kettle.

But in principle the notion of jackasses going AWAY somewhere doesn't bother me at all.

-F

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Friday, January 18, 2013 12:54 PM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


You make a valid point, Frem, about keeping them all together and away from everyone else! ;o) But while I disagree about a couple of your points, the one about letting people leave is also valid.

Brenda, I have imagined exactly the same thing myownself, laughing. But I wouldn't actually DO it--I've long known that, as a born-and-bred Californian, I would be ridden out of town on a rail, tarred and feathered, in MANY rural areas in America! I'd open my mouth about once, especially in the South, and that would be the end of THAT! ;o)

I'm just glad I live in California. In fairness, don't be fooled, we have them too:
Quote:

With their numbers almost doubling in the last year and a presence in 21 states, neo-Nazi skinhead gangs pose a growing menace to minorities, particularly in California, according to a national report released Wednesday. L.A. Times

As of September of last year:
Quote:

There are 13 active hate groups in San Diego County, four of which are white supremacist groups. http://www.kpbs.org/news/2012/sep/05/13-hate-groups-tracked-san-diego-
county/


Tit for tat got us where we are today. If we want to be grownups, we need to resist the ugliness. If we each did, this would be a better reflection on Firefly and a more welcome place. I will try.

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Sunday, January 20, 2013 8:31 PM

RIONAEIRE

Beir bua agus beannacht


I sure didn't know what a lesbian was in kindergarten and I don't think most of my class mates did either. Maybe children raised in areas with lots of hicks know stuff early. I didn't find out what gay really meant until I was 12 in theory and I didn't find out the mechanics of same sex rutting until I was 15 regarding men, I was 17 when I found out what it involved regarding women. I just thought they masterbated together or something. I was told the mechanics of regular rutting when I was 10, though I knew other things earlier than that, about STDs, sperm and eggs making a baby etc.

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya

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Sunday, January 20, 2013 9:25 PM

BRENDA


Quote:

Originally posted by Niki2:
Y

Brenda, I have imagined exactly the same thing myownself, laughing. But I wouldn't actually DO it--I've long known that, as a born-and-bred Californian, I would be ridden out of town on a rail, tarred and feathered, in MANY rural areas in America! I'd open my mouth about once, especially in the South, and that would be the end of THAT! ;o)

I'm just glad I live in California. In fairness, don't be fooled, we have them too:
Quote:

With their numbers almost doubling in the last year and a presence in 21 states, neo-Nazi skinhead gangs pose a growing menace to minorities, particularly in California, according to a national report released Wednesday. L.A. Times

As of September of last year:
Quote:

There are 13 active hate groups in San Diego County, four of which are white supremacist groups. http://www.kpbs.org/news/2012/sep/05/13-hate-groups-tracked-san-diego-
county/


Tit for tat got us where we are today. If we want to be grownups, we need to resist the ugliness. If we each did, this would be a better reflection on Firefly and a more welcome place. I will try.



I think about it every so often specially since I found out that there are places in the western states that Indians still aren't welcome in.
I can get the devil in me sometimes. *L* Though if I ever really would. *shrugs*

Those stories about skinheads in California don't make me feel any better and I think I've heard news stories about them over the years. I have cousins who live in California and that makes me a mite uncomfortable. My family does darken with the sun.

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Monday, January 21, 2013 7:09 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Well, doll, then this will make you even MORE uncomfortable:
Quote:

An estimated 600 young people are involved in the neo-Nazi Skinhead movement in Canada. These include a hard core of some 350, plus an additional 250 who are, to varying degrees, participants or supporters. While their numbers were declining in the late eighties, that trend was reversed in the 1990's. The cities with the largest contingents of Skinheads are Toronto, Montreal, Ottawa and Vancouver, but activity has also occurred in recent years in Edmonton; Calgary; Winnipeg; Saskatoon; Regina; Quebec City; Halifax; Victoria, B.C.; Moncton, New Brunswick; and the Ontario cities of Kitchener, Windsor, Kingston and London.

Skinheads have been a part of Canada's extremist scene since the early 1980's. As in the United States, they have no national organization, operating instead in separate gangs with names like Aryan Resistance Movement Skins, Northern Hammerskins, and Final Solution Skinheads. Canadian Skins also figured prominently in some established racist and anti-Semitic hate groups, such as the Heritage Front, led by Wolfgang Droege of Toronto; the Nationalist Party of Canada, headed by Don Andrews; the Church of the Creator, which originated in the United States, and the Aryan Nations, headquartered in Idaho.

Older white supremacists in Canada have regarded the Skinheads as potential recruits to bolster their flagging numbers. Performances by Skinhead bands have drawn young fans to rural rallies at which they have been lectured by such longtime extremists as John Ross Taylor (who died in November 1994) and one-time Canadian Nazi Party leader John Beattie.

Some of the rally sites have been provided by right-wing extremists, as in 1990 when 200 white supremacists, most of them Skinheads, gathered at Ian MacDonald's farm in Metcalf, Ontario. There they were treated to the music of the British Skinhead band No Remorse, while armed Skins in military fatigues stood by. In other instances, land has been rented without signaling its intended use, as at Des Laurentides, Quebec, in 1992. The event, "Aryanfest '92," was sponsored by a Canadian unit of the Ku Klux Klan and attracted 70 Skinheads, including members of the Montreal neo-Nazi group, White Power Canada. LOTS more at http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/orgs/american/adl/skinhead-international/sk
ins-canada.html


They ARE everywhere, I don't think there are many places where they don't exist in one form or another. Germany is kind of a hotbed of them in one form or another. A lot of them just keep a low profile so we're not aware of their existence, but North America and Europe all have their share. You know, any place the population is majority white and there are nutcase afraid of every other race...

Tit for tat got us where we are today. If we want to be grownups, we need to resist the ugliness. If we each did, this would be a better reflection on Firefly and a more welcome place. I will try.

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Monday, January 21, 2013 10:09 AM

FREMDFIRMA



I gotta say though, the Canadian skinheads are for the most part hopelessly, tragically inept, seriously, I've run afoul of a couple and their "hate" seems almost pro-forma, going-through-the-motions than actual, yanno, hate.
It's downright weird, it is.

There's also that without the backing the Feds and their plants (so MANY of which have been exposed and outed since Elohim City) the white-power movement here would have all but collapsed financially and would be but a pale shadow of itself, and good riddance to it - so one has to question why the hell the Feds would prop up hate groups save as a handy excuse, which did come back and bite innocent people on the ass in Oklahoma, just as the FBI's playing pattycake with Ramzi Yousself bit us on the ass at the WTC in 1993.

Stuff like this is why I consider our so-called-protectors as much or more dangerous to us than actual terrorists, cause they've a habit of supporting and enabling those clueless bastards, grrrr.


Another factor to consider is just how MUCH traction the white-power types have within the US Military, there were some links between that and the Elohim City mess (which potentially explains the other devices and how they got there) but that has never been properly investigated, even by the military itself, cause they're just too damn useful to them, you see ?
Which has it's own far-reaching consequences.

The mighty-whitey-righties themselves don't concern me too much, outside of the occasional actually dangerous wackjob like William Krar, they're pathetic, incompetent - they might be INDIVIDUALLY dangerous, but no more so than any other pack of gangbangers.... it's only when the Feds/SPLC wanna whip up a plot to get high profile busts and start enabling them that they turn actually dangerous on a larger scale.

Which is, of course, my primary concern about this - were they to establish such a community it would not prosper, and would eventually peter out all on its own, but the temptation to create, provoke and stage another Waco by supporting them and then baiting them into a confrontation is just too strong for the alphabet boys to resist.

-Frem

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Monday, January 21, 2013 12:27 PM

BRENDA


Oh, I know we got skinheads and neo nazis up here in Canada. Used to be KKK all over Ontario when I was a kid. Heard that on the news. Creeped me out even back then.

Skinheads have tried to hold rallies here in BC but I'm not sure if they've ever been that successful.

But I do know. I'm not blind to the faults of my own country Niki. It saddens me though.

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Monday, January 21, 2013 1:04 PM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


I didn't think you were blind, Brenda, I never knew anything as rude as skinheads had taken up residence in Canada! It's totally contrary to our view of you guys, and saddens me deeply, too.

What the hell. There are nutcases everywhere I guess...

Tit for tat got us where we are today. If we want to be grownups, we need to resist the ugliness. If we each did, this would be a better reflection on Firefly and a more welcome place. I will try.

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Monday, January 21, 2013 1:52 PM

RIONAEIRE

Beir bua agus beannacht


Hi Niki, I've always been perplexed by your overly positive views of other places. There are nice and trashy people everywhere you go, Canada, England, France, Australia Togo, Nepal, everywhere. I'm routinely surprised by your surprise of finding bad things in other places.

White supremecist anything creeps me out. I remember seeing the kkk on a show (historical drama series) as a little girl of 8 or so and they made me feel creeped out, because in the show the men of the town were starting a chapter and their wives thought it would be fun and cute for the guys to have a club. They didn't understand it was bad but I could tell it would be, because my parents were all "uh oh" and I knew something was very wrong with it, even though they hadn't showed the charactors do anything bad yet, they did by the end of the episode though.

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya

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Monday, January 21, 2013 3:32 PM

BYTEMITE


Quote:


Yanno, the notion of a collective of racist, intolerant pricks moving to some remote location AWAY from more rational people and limiting their interactions doesn't strike me as something I'd be especially inclined to stop...



Horray inbreeding! Promote diversity by letting ignorant morons homogenize themselves into an unsalvagable genetic trainwreck!

Quote:

Elohim City, where most of the "management" winds up consisting of federal agents planted to create/provoke an incident and stirring that kettle.


Damn. Even the name says "stay away from here - run, don't walk."

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Monday, January 21, 2013 4:21 PM

MAGONSDAUGHTER


And they hate recycling. Do you think they'll end up buried in their own shit, or will they throw it over the citadel walls.

What is HOA?

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Monday, January 21, 2013 4:25 PM

MAGONSDAUGHTER


Oh goody, they plan on manufacturing weapons for employment opportunities.

Quote:


Citadel: Revenue

III Arms CompanySurvival of the Citadel Community depends on making employment available for arriving families. We have already launched III Arms, a modern firearms company that will help employ the first wave of III Pioneers. III Arms is also unique in the world of firearms companies in that all profits generated are donated to the Citadel to help build our community.

Many entrepreneurs have already stepped forward and announced their intent to start small businesses that will employ Citadel Pioneers and existing Benewah County residents.

Additionally, the Citadel intends to become a premiere tourist destination for Americans from sea-to-sea and border-to-border. Not only will tourists travel to see the only real fortified castle & town in America, we intend to offer numerous attractions including a firearms museum where enthusiasts actually get to fire their favorite arms from history!

When tourists choose to stay at the Citadel for a while they may also take advantage of our RV parks, quaint and comfortable bed & breakfast establishments, or high-end hotels. The panhandle of Idaho is renowned for its scenic beauty, notably rugged mountains and rolling hills. It is among one of America's most superbly beautiful landscapes. Whatever the season, you will find numerous recreational activities. Indulge in boating and other forms of water sports. Enjoy world-class fishing on Lake Coeur d'Alene or on many other lakes, rivers, and high-mountain streams. There are trails for hiking, picturesque paths for strolling, as well as places ideal for biking or horseback riding. The Idaho panhandle has also earned a stellar reputation for champion hunting and deluxe skiing!

We are considering a boarding school to educate the next generation of patriotic American children. We intend to put together one of the finest, most comprehensive libraries in the nation. And, we also plan to build a complete museum dedicated to our Founding Fathers and the ideals they espoused. Additionally, we plan on forming our own bank that will issue Citadel coins in silver and gold.



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Monday, January 21, 2013 5:44 PM

RIONAEIRE

Beir bua agus beannacht


Oh dear. Magon's, are you sure that article you cited isn't a pretend article? That's just ... ug.

I'm very opposed to boarding school. I see it as an excuse for parents to not have to raise their own children. The only time I'm okay with it is if crummy parents who can't take care of their kids send them there because they are being given an ultimatum, or if children can't be raised by their parents for various reasons. Other than that I'm quite opposed to it. Every community needs viable schools so that kids can learn in their own towns/villages/etc.

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya

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Monday, January 21, 2013 5:51 PM

FREMDFIRMA


Quote:

Originally posted by BYTEMITE:
Horray inbreeding! Promote diversity by letting ignorant morons homogenize themselves into an unsalvagable genetic trainwreck!


I didn't say that... well, not out loud, anyways.


Riona, that's the thing, some of the dweebs involved in it, it really *IS* no more than a social club to them, whatever "hate" they have is all for show, just part of the game, and without their buddies watching them and egging them on they won't DO a damn thing besides petty crap like vandalism or internet trolling - threat level: Zero.

The Canadian ones I've run across are even MORE "fail" than THAT - not saying there aren't any dangerous ones up there, as I am sure there are, but that Canadians are in general a little less gonzo-nutzo than americans, so even their supposed bad people are kinda laughable in comparison.

Now Gary, Indiana on the other hand, THOSE assholes mean it, and they WILL get violent about it, I hated that town and everyone in it within two hours of being stuck there, and by the end of the day would have happily burnt the place to the ground...
*shudder*
And don't even get me STARTED on Wakarusa.

-F

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Monday, January 21, 2013 6:07 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by Magonsdaughter:
Oh goody, they plan on manufacturing weapons for employment opportunities.

Quote:


Citadel: Revenue

III Arms CompanySurvival of the Citadel Community depends on making employment available for arriving families. We have already launched III Arms, a modern firearms company that will help employ the first wave of III Pioneers. III Arms is also unique in the world of firearms companies in that all profits generated are donated to the Citadel to help build our community.





And they're communists!



"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence [sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero

"I was wrong" - Hero, 2012

Mitt Romney, introducing his running mate: "Join me in welcoming the next President of the United States, Paul Ryan!"

Rappy's response? "You're lying, gullible ( believing in some BS you heard on msnbc ) or hard of hearing."

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Monday, January 21, 2013 6:13 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Also from their website:

"The Citadel is a developing community of Patriots in the mountains of Idaho who believe in Jefferson's Rightful Liberty and have chosen to live amongst one another, who have sworn their Lives, their Fortunes and their Sacred Honor to defend one another and Liberty."

Huh. They'll happily give "their Fortunes" to the Citadel, and they'll give up any profit for working in the arms factory... because they love liberty and the American Way?

This place is a commune, pure and simple. A pyramid scheme wrapped in communist mumbo-jumbo.

Is this the scheme that Glenn Beck is behind? It sounds like his kind of thing.

Oh, and they say they're also going to mint their own coins. Because, y'know, they love America and the Constitution so much.




"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence [sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero

"I was wrong" - Hero, 2012

Mitt Romney, introducing his running mate: "Join me in welcoming the next President of the United States, Paul Ryan!"

Rappy's response? "You're lying, gullible ( believing in some BS you heard on msnbc ) or hard of hearing."

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Monday, January 21, 2013 6:18 PM

RIONAEIRE

Beir bua agus beannacht


Good points all Quicko, its definitely sounding like a commune. Not that communes are a bad thing in theory, I like the idea of having a commune myself. But reality doesn't seem to work out as well as theory, at least not once it gets to a certain point.

I wouldn't want to live there, and they wouldn't want me there. I wouldn't want to vacation there either. If I don't feel wanted somewhere its usually an incentive not to go there. Though occasionally it works the other way around, as in "try and stop me rutters, I'll be here if I want to so there". But I don't want to be in this place.

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya

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Monday, January 21, 2013 7:22 PM

RIONAEIRE

Beir bua agus beannacht


Okay, so I went to the site to check it out. And its _definitely a COMMUNE!

I looked at the Patriot Agreement (which was surprisingly one dimentional, all it focused on practically was guns guns guns. I think its silly to be required to carry at all times when out and about in town, that's silliness. Everything else, though extreme, didn't seem so very bad, though it did seem a bit silly. I still wouldn't care to live there though.

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya

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Monday, January 21, 2013 10:45 PM

BRENDA


Quote:

Originally posted by Niki2:
I didn't think you were blind, Brenda, I never knew anything as rude as skinheads had taken up residence in Canada! It's totally contrary to our view of you guys, and saddens me deeply, too.

What the hell. There are nutcases everywhere I guess...

Tit for tat got us where we are today. If we want to be grownups, we need to resist the ugliness. If we each did, this would be a better reflection on Firefly and a more welcome place. I will try.



My bad Niki. I didn't mean that you were saying that. It's just that I've known for years that these nutjobs are in my country. I'm just glad that they can't get large enough groups together to DO anything.

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