REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

Regarding the Second Amendment

POSTED BY: NIKI2
UPDATED: Sunday, December 23, 2012 14:59
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Saturday, December 22, 2012 9:57 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Given it is pointed to so often as granting everyone the right to own a gun, I think this might be worth considering:
Quote:

Until the very recent past, individual gun rights were severely restricted. Believe it or not, the entire concept of “gun rights” – that is, of citizens’ unbridled freedom to buy and own firearms – is largely a creation of our own times.

Yes, the Second Amendment to the Constitution guarantees the “right to bear arms.” But if that means individual citizens – as opposed to state militias – can carry firearms anywhere they want, someone forgot to tell our 19th-century forebears. As law professor Adam Winkler has found, 10 states passed laws in the 1800s barring the possession of concealed weapons.

One of them was Texas, the lodestar of the gun-rights movement today. But as the Lone Star governor said in 1893, “the mission of the concealed weapon is murder. To check it is the duty of every self-respecting, law abiding man.”

Founded in 1871 as a hunting organization, the National Rifle Association supported waiting periods for handgun buyers and a wide array of other state restrictions. It also backed the first major federal gun regulation, the 1934 National Firearms Act, which was upheld by the Supreme Court in a unanimous decision five years later.

As US Solicitor General Robert Jackson told the Court, the Second Amendment did not protect the right of individuals to possess guns for “private purposes.” Instead, it was “restricted to the keeping and bearing of arms by the people collectively for their common defense and security,” wrote Jackson, who would join the Court himself in 1941.

Only in the 1970s would the NRA and conservatives start to argue that the Second Amendment guaranteed individual gun possession. Piggybacking cleverly on the minority and women’s rights revolutions, the NRA claimed that gun owners, too, were endowed with “rights” that were protected by the Constitution.

The group also created a giant lobbying and publicity apparatus to spread this new doctrine. Reflecting on the NRA's politicking, Chief Justice Warren Burger said that the Second Amendment “has been the subject of one of the greatest pieces of fraud – I repeat the word ‘fraud’ – on the American public by special interest groups that I have ever seen in my lifetime.”

But Burger had retired by the time he made that statement, and the NRA was on the rise. Today, millions of Americans take it for granted that the Constitution protects individual gun rights. So do their legislatures and courts, which have discovered a meaning in the Second Amendment that earlier generations never imagined.

That’s doesn’t mean they’re wrong, necessarily, or that prior interpretations were right. Our past is replete with legal doctrines that have shifted with the times, in ways that we justly celebrate. For nearly two centuries, most notoriously, courts upheld the enslavement, segregation, and disenfranchisement of African-Americans.

But no honest person could possibly maintain that blacks possessed equal rights throughout these years. And that’s exactly the kind of thing we hear routinely about gun rights from the NRA and others who want you to believe that these “freedoms” were deeply inscribed in American life before the big, bad liberal state took them away.

Americans can debate whether they should be able to own guns, and under what conditions. They can even argue that the country would be better off with more guns, rather than fewer.

But one cannot say that our foreparents intended to give everyone the right to own a gun and carry it wherever they wished. That’s a fraud, to borrow Justice Burger’s phrase. I repeat the word: fraud. Saying it over and over again won’t make it true. http://www.csmonitor.com/Commentary/Opinion/2012/1218/Sandy-Hook-massa
cre-The-NRA-s-gun-rights-are-a-fabrication-of-modern-times/(page)/2
]
I've been here before with regard to what the Second Amendment "actually meant", so I'll add some background on at least one Founding Father's stance:
Quote:

Madison never meant Second Amendment to allow guns of Sandy Hook shooting

A close look shows that James Madison conceived the Second Amendment in a different time, under different circumstances, with different weapons.

Were firearms intended only for militias – as the first clause might indicate? Or are municipalities prohibited from banning certain firearms – as the Supreme Court ruled in 2010 in McDonald v. Chicago when it overturned the Windy City's ban on hand guns?

The problem with these lines of thought is that in both we are refusing to frame this debate in the 21st century. Or even more appropriate, the year 2012 – whose multiple mass shootings included the massacre in Aurora, Colo. and last week's two tragedies in Happy Valley, Ore. and Newtown. If we truly wish to demystify the intentions of James Madison when he wrote the Second Amendment, we must reconstruct the environment in which he conceived it and recognize that it was a very different time, with very different circumstances, and very different weapons.

At first, success in the Revolutionary War helped the Founding Fathers realize the necessity of firearms. A far-away government imposed taxes without representation, but with an armed citizenry, the colonies had fought for the right to form their own government. It is likely that Madison intended that guns be available if this course of action was ever again necessary.

But now the field has changed. The muskets that the minutemen took up against the British were a good match for the weapons they would be facing on the battlefield. This is undoubtedly no longer the case.

Now there is no citizen armament – and really, nothing short of military aircraft or an atomic weapon – that could match the US military. And even today’s Supreme Court would find it hard to permit the construction of backyard missile silos. Regrettably or not, we must concede that the conditions allowing for an armed revolution of the people have long since vanished.

But, there’s still the question of why firearms for a militia might be necessary. Again, we should take Madison’s perspective. While America was fulfilling its manifest destiny, expansionists would often instigate territorial disputes with the native people whose land and resources they were claiming. When those peoples objected violently, groups of armed men, shoulder to shoulder, could repel them with force and keep their communities safe. Now that we have essentially concluded all territorial disputes in North America, it is safe to say that this justification’s time has passed.

But then, there is personal defense, by far the most controversial rationale for unmitigated gun rights. Proponents of this school of thought suggest that firearms – even automatic weapons – are necessary for protecting their homes from intruders and from violent criminals, both of whom may be similarly armed. They use this argument to justify owning weapons with silencers, expanded magazines, and semi-automatic triggering mechanisms. What they ignore though, is that in the days of James Madison, none of these technologies existed, nor was there any conception that they ever would be.

The weapons with which Madison was familiar were essentially muskets, in addition to rudimentary pistols and rifles. A competent user could generally only take a single wildly inaccurate shot, and then would likely find himself rummaging around with a ram-rod (and a powder bag he had to tear with his teeth) for as much as a minute before being able to take another. There was virtually no way an individual could maim two people before being subdued, let alone 32 as at Virginia Tech, or 26 in Sandy Hook Elementary.

The beauty of Madison’s musket was that, without being truly dangerous in large scale, it remained effective for personal defense. In addition to the propulsion mechanism, muskets were also outfitted with bayonets for issuing blows at short range, which could be used to subdue an attacker without killing them. When people did die from these weapons, it was often because of lead poisoning or bacterial infection. While the weapons of Madison’s era could be used for offense, and could certainly inflict deadly damage, they were only advantageous in situations involving group combat – not for an individual shooter to inflict quick and wide-scale harm.

If we accept the argument that today’s AK-47s fit the purpose and circumstances of Madison’s muskets, the fact that this nation experiences the insanity of mass murder is no longer surprising. The nature of this latest shooting in Connecticut, where the vast majority of the victims were young children, will hopefully shake us from this mindset. As families seek healing in the days and weeks ahead, lawmakers should consider specific reforms to curb gun violence, and they should start with access.

They can attempt to close loopholes, regulate sales, mandate more thorough background checks and waiting periods, raise awareness about mental health, or embark on a whole host of alternate approaches. But if we are continuing to defend the Second Amendment without restriction in a 21st-century context, what America really needs is to send our firearm technology back in time. American law can and should limit what technology is legal for citizens to access and own.

And as much as I would love to limit that technology to Revolutionary War-era muskets, more realistically, we can place restrictions on the kinds of weapons that are readily available in corner stores and at gun shows.

While hunters and gun collectors may complain about the decrease in speed and variety of weapons, no person’s sport is worth another person's man’s life. There is no logical reason that anyone should have to fire dozens of shots without reloading – unless intending to deprive that many people of life and limb. The US government must make the distinction between a weapon of war, and one that could be legitimately used for sport or self-defense.

If we as Americans mean to put the tragedy of mass murder behind us, we need to remove from public society the machines that make it possible. Guns may not kill people on their own, but making assault weaponry readily available trivializes the value of human life. http://www.csmonitor.com/Commentary/Opinion/2012/1217/Madison-never-me
ant-Second-Amendment-to-allow-guns-of-Sandy-Hook-shooting?nav=602141-csm_article-promoLink


I think the Second Amendment, used as it is to justify ANY ownership of ANY gun, is a good place to start for us, being just a bunch of people on a website discussing guns.

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Saturday, December 22, 2012 2:47 PM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up


Quote:

Originally posted by Niki2:
Given it is pointed to so often as granting everyone the right to own a gun...



Well, not so much.

As noted in another thread, 18 USC 922(g) prohibits lots of folks from possessing firearms:

Quote:

(g) It shall be unlawful for any person -
(1) who has been convicted in any court of, a crime punishable
by imprisonment for a term exceeding one year;
(2) who is a fugitive from justice;
(3) who is an unlawful user of or addicted to any controlled
substance (as defined in section 102 of the Controlled Substances
Act (21 U.S.C. 802));
(4) who has been adjudicated as a mental defective or who has
been committed to a mental institution;
(5) who, being an alien -
(A) is illegally or unlawfully in the United States; or
(B) except as provided in subsection (y)(2), has been
admitted to the United States under a nonimmigrant visa (as
that term is defined in section 101(a)(26) of the Immigration
and Nationality Act (8 U.S.C. 1101(a)(26)));
(6) who has been discharged from the Armed Forces under
dishonorable conditions;
(7) who, having been a citizen of the United States, has
renounced his citizenship;
(8) who is subject to a court order that -
(A) was issued after a hearing of which such person received
actual notice, and at which such person had an opportunity to
participate;
(B) restrains such person from harassing, stalking, or
threatening an intimate partner of such person or child of such
intimate partner or person, or engaging in other conduct that
would place an intimate partner in reasonable fear of bodily
injury to the partner or child; and
(C)(i) includes a finding that such person represents a
credible threat to the physical safety of such intimate partner
or child; or
(ii) by its terms explicitly prohibits the use, attempted
use, or threatened use of physical force against such intimate
partner or child that would reasonably be expected to cause
bodily injury; or
(9) who has been convicted in any court of a misdemeanor crime
of domestic violence,
to ship or transport in interstate or foreign commerce, or possess
in or affecting commerce, any firearm or ammunition; or to receive
any firearm or ammunition which has been shipped or transported in
interstate or foreign commerce.



http://codes.lp.findlaw.com/uscode/18/I/44/922

BTW:
Quote:

Founded in 1871 as a hunting organization, the National Rifle Association...

That's not right either, the NRA was founded to encourage marksmanship, by Civil War officers appalled at the lack of shooting ability of the average citizen-soldier.

Oh, and:
Quote:

While hunters and gun collectors may complain about the decrease in speed and variety of weapons, no person’s sport is worth another person's man’s life.


Last year, around 30 people were killed by dogs, and many others injured. Since you quote an article that states no person's sport is worth another person's life, you will of course have your dogs put down. Right?




"When your heart breaks, you choose what to fill the cracks with. Love or hate. But hate won't ever heal. Only love can do that."

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Saturday, December 22, 2012 3:35 PM

FREMDFIRMA


Umm, this is an incorrect assessment of Madisons perspective.

One should read the Federalist/Antifederalist papers in detail before offering such commentaries since the Founders were very explicit and went into meticulous detail on nearly every aspect of the proposed new Government.
I cite specifically AF 8/24/25/29 in response to the above claim, as well as Madison himself.

Antifederalist Papers
http://www.utulsa.edu/law/classes/rice/constitutional/antifederalist/a
ntifed.htm


Federalist Papers
http://thomas.loc.gov/home/histdox/fedpapers.html

It is worth a note here that despite the sneering dismissals such predictions received at the time, every single worst-case scenario predicted by the Antifederalists did indeed happen, often even beyond their worst imaginings, which is one of the things which causes me to assign dubious intentions to Hamilton, Jay and Madison because it appears quite obvious in retrospect that they were planning to use the very weaknesses they claimed no one would ever dare, in order to subvert the proposed Constitution before the ink was even dry.
Quote:

But the members of the Federal Convention were men we been all tried in the field of action, say some; they have fought for American liberty. Then the more to their shame be it said; curse on the villain who protects virgin innocence only with a view that he may himself become the ravisher; so that if the assertion were true, it only turns to their disgrace; but as it happens it is not truth, or at least only so in part. This was a scheme taken by the despots and their sycophants to bias the public mind in favor of the constitution. For the convention was composed of a variety of characters: ambitious men, Jesuits, Tories, lawyers, etc., formed the majority, whose similitude to each other, consisted only in their determination to lord it over their fellow citizens; like the rays that converging from every direction meet in a point, their sentiments and deliberations concentered in tyranny alone; they were unanimous in forming a government that should raise the fortunes and respectability of the well born few, and oppress the plebeians.

PHILADELPHIENSIS


(From AF 40)

Anyhows, reading through one will find a running theme that the right to bear arms of any kind for personal defense is SO assumed as to be nearly beneath mention, specifically, if you wanna talk about Madisons perspect, this little bit from Federalist 46 where he essentially claims that no protection is NEEDED against certain encroachments since no one would stoop that low and even if they did the people who would not stand for it - because they were armed.
(My impression is that Madison might have meant it, being idealistic and a little naive, but Hamilton and Jay certainly knew better since they abused those very loopholes IMMEDIATELY)
Quote:

The only refuge left for those who prophesy the downfall of the State governments is the visionary supposition that the federal government may previously accumulate a military force for the projects of ambition. The reasonings contained in these papers must have been employed to little purpose indeed, if it could be necessary now to disprove the reality of this danger. That the people and the States should, for a sufficient period of time, elect an uninterupted succession of men ready to betray both; that the traitors should, throughout this period, uniformly and systematically pursue some fixed plan for the extension of the military establishment; that the governments and the people of the States should silently and patiently behold the gathering storm, and continue to supply the materials, until it should be prepared to burst on their own heads, must appear to every one more like the incoherent dreams of a delirious jealousy, or the misjudged exaggerations of a counterfeit zeal, than like the sober apprehensions of genuine patriotism. Extravagant as the supposition is, let it however be made.
Translation: Oh that'll NEVER happen - but it did, didn't it ?

Let a regular army, fully equal to the resources of the country, be formed; and let it be entirely at the devotion of the federal government; still it would not be going too far to say, that the State governments, with the people on their side, would be able to repel the danger. The highest number to which, according to the best computation, a standing army can be carried in any country, does not exceed one hundredth part of the whole number of souls; or one twenty-fifth part of the number able to bear arms. This proportion would not yield, in the United States, an army of more than twenty-five or thirty thousand men. To these would be opposed a militia amounting to near half a million of citizens with arms in their hands, officered by men chosen from among themselves, fighting for their common liberties, and united and conducted by governments possessing their affections and confidence. It may well be doubted, whether a militia thus circumstanced could ever be conquered by such a proportion of regular troops. Those who are best acquainted with the last successful resistance of this country against the British arms, will be most inclined to deny the possibility of it. Besides the advantage of being armed, which the Americans possess over the people of almost every other nation, the existence of subordinate governments, to which the people are attached, and by which the militia officers are appointed, forms a barrier against the enterprises of ambition, more insurmountable than any which a simple government of any form can admit of. Notwithstanding the military establishments in the several kingdoms of Europe, which are carried as far as the public resources will bear, the governments are afraid to trust the people with arms. And it is not certain, that with this aid alone they would not be able to shake off their yokes. But were the people to possess the additional advantages of local governments chosen by themselves, who could collect the national will and direct the national force, and of officers appointed out of the militia, by these governments, and attached both to them and to the militia, it may be affirmed with the greatest assurance, that the throne of every tyranny in Europe would be speedily overturned in spite of the legions which surround it. Let us not insult the free and gallant citizens of America with the suspicion, that they would be less able to defend the rights of which they would be in actual possession, than the debased subjects of arbitrary power would be to rescue theirs from the hands of their oppressors. Let us rather no longer insult them with the supposition that they can ever reduce themselves to the necessity of making the experiment, by a blind and tame submission to the long train of insidious measures which must precede and produce it.


Of course, Lincoln proved this to be very much untrue, since matters unfolded exactly as the Antifederalists predicted back in the 1780's, but credit for trying - Madison wasn't JUST speaking of the Militia as a force here, but as the whole of the people, with their individual arms.

The notion of personal armamement was assumed to the degree one assumes another has a right to possess and wear clothing, by ALL of our Founding fathers, on either side of this debate.

Also, the above argument by the CSMonitor dances around the fact that we are NOT SUPPOSED TO EVEN HAVE A STANDING ARMY, an omission which can only be quite deliberate, in an attempt to frame a deliberately misleading argument.

-Frem

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Saturday, December 22, 2012 4:00 PM

CANTTAKESKY


Well argued and supported. Thank you, Frem.


-----

Disobedience is not an issue if obedience is not the goal.

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Saturday, December 22, 2012 10:58 PM

HKCAVALIER


Yeah, the whole idea that "individual gun rights" was a creation of the 70's is kinda bunk. Go read the Bill of Rights and time and again the phrase "the right of the people to..." is employed when they're clearly talking about individual rights. So to say that "of the people" means "individual" except in the case of "the right of the people to keep and bear arms..." isn't exactly reasonable. And yeah, the founders took owning a gun as a given and an absolute good 'cause of their circumstances.

And as to the militia, it was understood back then that every able bodied male over the age of (I think) 17 was considered a member of the militia. The whole populous, that is "the people" again, were considered the militia. And, of course, back then the phrase "well regulated" meant well TRAINED.

If you wanna throw out the 2A and amend the Constitution accordingly, then go for it, but as long as the 2A is there, I'm afraid it means what you don't want it to mean.
In short: the Founders were gunbunnies, too.

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

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Sunday, December 23, 2012 4:53 AM

HERO


You can't ignore the perspective of the Founders. These men were revolutionaries.

The first battle of the Revolutionary War was fought when the British govt sought to illegally seize military weapons in the hands of local citizens and disarm the militia. They routed the militia but it was the weapons in the hands of local citizen Minutemen who made them pay a very high price.

Following the war there were a series of internal conflicts that led to the creation of the strong federal govt. Despite this they still included the right to bear arms in the Bill of Rights, 2nd only to those regarding intellectual freedoms. Then another rebellion in which Washington was forced to lead an army into PA to restore order and still the right remained among our most beloved freedoms.

And if you think guns in the hands of private citizens were uncommon until recently, you have no understanding of American history. Up until the early years of the 20th century civilians had often better weapons then the military.

H



Hero...must be right on all of this. ALL of the rest of us are wrong. Chrisisall, 2012

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Sunday, December 23, 2012 6:01 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Quote:

Last year, around 30 people were killed by dogs, and many others injured. Since you quote an article that states no person's sport is worth another person's life, you will of course have your dogs put down. Right?


Well, that's about as stupid a statement as I've seen in a while. Aside from the fact that my dogs aren't my "sport", they're my family.

How asinine can you get?

Tit for tat got us where we are today. If we want to be grownups, we need to resist the ugliness. If we each did, this would be a better reflection on Firefly and a more welcome place. I will try.

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Sunday, December 23, 2012 2:59 PM

FREMDFIRMA


Quote:

Originally posted by HKCavalier:
The whole populous, that is "the people" again, were considered the militia. And, of course, back then the phrase "well regulated" meant well TRAINED.


And that is the beauty of the proposal I offered in the Do-over thread, it satisfies BOTH the meaning of "well regulated" as well-trained, and by standardising and regulating instructors, also the other.
And without any form of "infringing" because the possession and useage is never directly affected in any way, simply the certification and standardisation of instructors, which is Constitutionally a viable function of Government, and from a state level might even satisfy the requirement of providing officers/instruction to the militia.

Believe me, I thought that one through a loooong time before offering it.

-Frem


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