REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

"I should've slipped and stabbed him by accident."

POSTED BY: ANTHONYT
UPDATED: Saturday, December 22, 2012 09:05
SHORT URL:
VIEWED: 2282
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Wednesday, December 19, 2012 4:30 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


http://us.cnn.com/2012/12/18/us/connecticut-shooting-adam-lanza-barber
/index.html?iref=obnetwork


Hello,

I wonder how many people who had him in their life feel this way. If he had just died, or been killed. If I had known, I could've done it. Could've murdered that kid in my chair years before he massacred all those other kids.

I feel that sentiments like this- perhaps natural to the grief-stricken mind, are very, very sad. I hated reading it.

It says something about us that I don't like.

--Anthony






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Wednesday, December 19, 2012 8:53 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


I don't think it says something about "us", but about the barber, and no doubt some others. SOME. I don't think it's unnatural for anyone to wish they could have done something to stop it, especially someone who had actual contact with the shooter..

Bear in mind that the psychologists are talking at length about "survivor guilt", and that it will touch even those who had nothing to do with the shooting or who weren't even there. I would chalk it up to that and nothing more.

Unquestionably yes, his thoughts and words were awful, no questions whatsoever about that. But I don't think it is a reflection of most people, nor do I think it's necessarily how this person TRULY feels, when his emotions aren't getting the better of him.

Tit for tat got us where we are today. If we want to be grownups, we need to resist the ugliness. If we each did, this would be a better reflection on Firefly and a more welcome place. I will try.

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Wednesday, December 19, 2012 10:26 AM

HKCAVALIER


It all boils down to the fantasy of control. Control is the saddest lie of the human mind. We have no control over this kind of thing. Y'know, murder is the ultimate expression of the fantasy of control. Murder is the only "control" any human being is going to have over the thoughts and actions of another person. We can limit and limit and limit a person's movement but we won't have total control. But we can have "control" if we end them entirely. So, yes, of course, folks fantasize about assassinating a 19 year old child for the pre-crime of killing 20 others. They fantasize about standing in front of the School like Doc Holiday and gunnin' the sum'bitch down like the dog he is.

It's also an expression of the a fallacy of us and them. Violence on my part = good, violence on his part = bad. All we gotta do, the think goes, is make sure that the violence always flows in the correct direction: from the virtuous to the villainous. But that's not in the nature of violence, is it? What violence loves most of all is a cycle. No, violence never goes in just one direction, the direction we want and fantasize about. But that brings us back to the fantasy of control, don'it?

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

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Wednesday, December 19, 2012 10:29 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Beautifully said, Cav.

Tit for tat got us where we are today. If we want to be grownups, we need to resist the ugliness. If we each did, this would be a better reflection on Firefly and a more welcome place. I will try.

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Wednesday, December 19, 2012 10:48 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Hello,

Unfortunately, people will eagerly grasp this fantasy of control- even when it is ludicrous- in moments of pain, fear, and despair.

--Anthony

Note to Self:
Raptor - woman testifying about birth control is a slut (the term applies.)
Context: http://tinyurl.com/d6ozfej
Six - Wow, isn't Niki quite the CUNT? And, yes, I spell that in all caps....
http://tinyurl.com/bdjgbpe
Wulf - Niki is a stupid fucking bitch who should hurry up and die.
Context: http://tinyurl.com/afve3r9

“The stupid neither forgive nor forget; the naive forgive and forget; the wise forgive but do not forget.” -T. S. Szasz

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Wednesday, December 19, 2012 11:01 AM

HKCAVALIER


And likely will until reality teaches them their error. What cataclysm will it take for a critical mass of the human race to actually deal with reality on reality's terms?

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

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Wednesday, December 19, 2012 11:09 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Reminds me of the thought experiment I'd heard of, years and years ago, where it is posited, that, IF you could go back in time, to a point where Adolph Hitler is still just a child, would you murder him, knowing that, if you didn't, he'd later grow up , and take the world to war ?

In effect, you'd be killing a young boy, who had yet done nothing, but would grow up to be the author of millions of dead and the destruction of much of Europe.

Could you carry out such an act ?

"False words are not only evil in themselves, but they infect the soul with evil." - Socrates

" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Wednesday, December 19, 2012 11:20 AM

ARLO

-.-. ..- -- / -.-. .- - .- .--. ..- .-.. - .- . / .--. .-. --- ... -.-. .-. .. .--. - .- . / . .-. .- - --..-- / - ..- -- / ... --- .-.. .. / .--. .-. --- ... -.-. .-. .. .--. - / -.-. .- - .- .--. ..- .-.. - .- ... / .... .- -... . ..- -. -


Quote:

Originally posted by HKCavalier:
It all boils down to the fantasy of control. Control is the saddest lie of the human mind. We have no control over this kind of thing. Y'know, murder is the ultimate expression of the fantasy of control. Murder is the only "control" any human being is going to have over the thoughts and actions of another person. We can limit and limit and limit a person's movement but we won't have total control. But we can have "control" if we end them entirely. So, yes, of course, folks fantasize about assassinating a 19 year old child for the pre-crime of killing 20 others. They fantasize about standing in front of the School like Doc Holiday and gunnin' the sum'bitch down like the dog he is.

It's also an expression of the a fallacy of us and them. Violence on my part = good, violence on his part = bad. All we gotta do, the think goes, is make sure that the violence always flows in the correct direction: from the virtuous to the villainous. But that's not in the nature of violence, is it? What violence loves most of all is a cycle. No, violence never goes in just one direction, the direction we want and fantasize about. But that brings us back to the fantasy of control, don'it?

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.



It's odd how some mindsets cling to the idea that horrible things not only can but undoubtedly would have been prevented if just one lone individual being at just the right place and time, possessing the training, tools and presence of mind to overcome the bad guy(s). Even more curious is the pattern many who hold to that also insist that any event sufficiently bad enough (or sometimes not even that - the moon landing, for instance) required many individuals conspiring over a long period of time with powerful assets for unknown nefarious reason(s).

Superman vs. all evil in the world.

I wonder if George Zimmerman had a conspiracy fixation. I wonder if he pictured himself the lone hero.

-- -.-- / ... .. --. -. .- - ..- .-. .

Um, WHO did you say you were, again and what are you trying to sell?

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Wednesday, December 19, 2012 11:23 AM

ARLO

-.-. ..- -- / -.-. .- - .- .--. ..- .-.. - .- . / .--. .-. --- ... -.-. .-. .. .--. - .- . / . .-. .- - --..-- / - ..- -- / ... --- .-.. .. / .--. .-. --- ... -.-. .-. .. .--. - / -.-. .- - .- .--. ..- .-.. - .- ... / .... .- -... . ..- -. -


Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:
Reminds me of the thought experiment I'd heard of, years and years ago, where it is posited, that, IF you could go back in time, to a point where Adolph Hitler is still just a child, would you murder him, knowing that, if you didn't, he'd later grow up , and take the world to war ?

In effect, you'd be killing a young boy, who had yet done nothing, but would grow up to be the author of millions of dead and the destruction of much of Europe.

Could you carry out such an act ?




Nevermore useless a time-killer (ptp). I prefer what-would-you-do exercises that would involve something doable, therefore revealing not only character insight but a discussion about practical solutions in the world we live in now.

-- -.-- / ... .. --. -. .- - ..- .-. .

Um, WHO did you say you were, again and what are you trying to sell?

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Wednesday, December 19, 2012 11:24 AM

ARLO

-.-. ..- -- / -.-. .- - .- .--. ..- .-.. - .- . / .--. .-. --- ... -.-. .-. .. .--. - .- . / . .-. .- - --..-- / - ..- -- / ... --- .-.. .. / .--. .-. --- ... -.-. .-. .. .--. - / -.-. .- - .- .--. ..- .-.. - .- ... / .... .- -... . ..- -. -

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Wednesday, December 19, 2012 11:32 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


I guess that's why they called it a thought experiment, or Gedankenexperiment. ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thought_experiment )

It's not meant to be a REAL situation.

"False words are not only evil in themselves, but they infect the soul with evil." - Socrates

" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Wednesday, December 19, 2012 11:34 AM

HKCAVALIER


All these dumbass time travel thought experiments have one stupid premise in common: the presumption of absolute predestination that would have to be in place to justify the slaughter of a child named Adolf Hitler (which of course is totally undermined by the stated goal of changing history).

If I were in charge of a top secret government time travel program involving Adolph Hitler, I'd have my operatives go back in time and befriend Hitler's mother and father and become close family friends when their child Adolph was born. My operatives would nurture and aid the young Adolph as much as they could, even patronizing his artistic career. Wouldn't that be great? Why not turn Hilter into a great artistic celebrity long before he turned in frustration to politics? I mean, I could myself go back and teach him cubism and fauvism way ahead of the curve! Only then, the great dictator would come out of Spain, a failed artist whom everyone accused of copying Hitler's genius. His supporters would march down the street chanting, "Heil Picasso!"



HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

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Wednesday, December 19, 2012 11:55 AM

JONGSSTRAW


There was an award-winning episode from 1996 from the Outer Limits called 'A Stitch In Time.' It starred Amanda Plummer and Michelle (STNG) Forbes. It addressed this very issue of 'killing the killers before they killed', and is generally regarded as one of the best time-travel pieces ever made. You can watch it for free on IMDB and Hulu.








"When the people find that they can vote themselves money, that will herald the end of the Republic."

Benjamin Franklin

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Wednesday, December 19, 2012 12:12 PM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


There's also the other train of thought many have posited--that given the times and the state of Germany, if you killed Hitler, another like him would emerge.

Might not do much about the above, but I suppose if I were to fantasize going back, a la Hitler, I'd want to kill him just when he starts to gain power and before he started killing people off. That MIGHT make it possible for the whole house of cards to fall apart without anyone else rising to take his place.

Tit for tat got us where we are today. If we want to be grownups, we need to resist the ugliness. If we each did, this would be a better reflection on Firefly and a more welcome place. I will try.

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Wednesday, December 19, 2012 12:27 PM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Hello,

Killing Hitler is a terrible idea. Someone truly competent may have taken his place and made better military and political decisions.

Like not attacking Russia, for instance.

Or like not allying with Japan and even declaring war on them in a show of solidarity with the United States, China, and Russia.

Then where would we be?

--Anthony

Note to Self:
Raptor - woman testifying about birth control is a slut (the term applies.)
Context: http://tinyurl.com/d6ozfej
Six - Wow, isn't Niki quite the CUNT? And, yes, I spell that in all caps....
http://tinyurl.com/bdjgbpe
Wulf - Niki is a stupid fucking bitch who should hurry up and die.
Context: http://tinyurl.com/afve3r9

“The stupid neither forgive nor forget; the naive forgive and forget; the wise forgive but do not forget.” -T. S. Szasz

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Wednesday, December 19, 2012 12:27 PM

ARLO

-.-. ..- -- / -.-. .- - .- .--. ..- .-.. - .- . / .--. .-. --- ... -.-. .-. .. .--. - .- . / . .-. .- - --..-- / - ..- -- / ... --- .-.. .. / .--. .-. --- ... -.-. .-. .. .--. - / -.-. .- - .- .--. ..- .-.. - .- ... / .... .- -... . ..- -. -


Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:
I guess that's why they called it a thought experiment, or Gedankenexperiment. ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thought_experiment )

It's not meant to be a REAL situation.




Whew. Thank you. For a moment there I thought it was supposed to be real. Wait ... no.



-- -.-- / ... .. --. -. .- - ..- .-. .

Um, WHO did you say you were, again and what are you trying to sell?

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Wednesday, December 19, 2012 12:36 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!



Ha ! I got a YoSaffBridge gif! Woo hoo!



"False words are not only evil in themselves, but they infect the soul with evil." - Socrates

" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Wednesday, December 19, 2012 12:48 PM

ARLO

-.-. ..- -- / -.-. .- - .- .--. ..- .-.. - .- . / .--. .-. --- ... -.-. .-. .. .--. - .- . / . .-. .- - --..-- / - ..- -- / ... --- .-.. .. / .--. .-. --- ... -.-. .-. .. .--. - / -.-. .- - .- .--. ..- .-.. - .- ... / .... .- -... . ..- -. -


Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:

Ha ! I got a YoSaffBridge gif! Woo hoo!






Will this mean you'll be missing from forum conversation for five minutes or so?

-- -.-- / ... .. --. -. .- - ..- .-. .

Um, WHO did you say you were, again and what are you trying to sell?

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Wednesday, December 19, 2012 6:42 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by Arlo:
Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:

Ha ! I got a YoSaffBridge gif! Woo hoo!






Will this mean you'll be missing from forum conversation for five minutes or so?



Oh, excuse me. Did you say something?

"False words are not only evil in themselves, but they infect the soul with evil." - Socrates

" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Wednesday, December 19, 2012 7:11 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by HKCavalier:
All these dumbass time travel thought experiments have one stupid premise in common: the presumption of absolute predestination that would have to be in place to justify the slaughter of a child named Adolf Hitler (which of course is totally undermined by the stated goal of changing history).

If I were in charge of a top secret government time travel program involving Adolph Hitler, I'd have my operatives go back in time and befriend Hitler's mother and father and become close family friends when their child Adolph was born. My operatives would nurture and aid the young Adolph as much as they could, even patronizing his artistic career. Wouldn't that be great? Why not turn Hilter into a great artistic celebrity long before he turned in frustration to politics? I mean, I could myself go back and teach him cubism and fauvism way ahead of the curve! Only then, the great dictator would come out of Spain, a failed artist whom everyone accused of copying Hitler's genius. His supporters would march down the street chanting, "Heil Picasso!"



HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.




Bingo. Going back and killing a child? Where's that get fun? It's a stupid thought experiment designed to entertain stupid people (it worked - Rappy jumped right into it!).

If you can't change history or his destiny, killing him won't do any good, because it will be someone else who fulfills the destiny. So now you've murdered an innocent child for no reason at all. Congrats: you're what's wrong with the world!



"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence [sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero

"I was wrong" - Hero, 2012

Mitt Romney, introducing his running mate: "Join me in welcoming the next President of the United States, Paul Ryan!"

Rappy's response? "You're lying, gullible ( believing in some BS you heard on msnbc ) or hard of hearing."

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Wednesday, December 19, 2012 7:23 PM

FREMDFIRMA


Quote:

Originally posted by HKCavalier:
If I were in charge of a top secret government time travel program involving Adolph Hitler, I'd have my operatives go back in time and befriend Hitler's mother and father and become close family friends when their child Adolph was born. My operatives would nurture and aid the young Adolph as much as they could, even patronizing his artistic career. Wouldn't that be great? Why not turn Hilter into a great artistic celebrity long before he turned in frustration to politics? I mean, I could myself go back and teach him cubism and fauvism way ahead of the curve! Only then, the great dictator would come out of Spain, a failed artist whom everyone accused of copying Hitler's genius. His supporters would march down the street chanting, "Heil Picasso!"


You're not the only one to think of that!
Mercy can be a Weapon, only... a different kind of one, a light against the darkness that it cannot break so easily.

There's a short story amongst Andrew Vachss work where a girl related to a notorious serial killer winds up convincing a sorceress to bring him back across the veil, and when the sorceress asks her what age he should be the girl insists upon newborn - the sorceress, who is very, VERY far from nice, is somewhat horrified and asks her what awful thing he must have done to her name that she would wish to slay him as a baby.
Quote:

"I do not wish to kill him for what he has done to my name, I wish to RAISE him... so that he can HONOR it."


I won't say that vengeance doesn't have its place, but more often than not it just feeds a destructive cycle.

-Frem


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Thursday, December 20, 2012 7:11 AM

AGENTROUKA


Taking that further, it would be much more uplifting to read about people wondering if they could have in some way helped this sickeningly disturbed young man when he was young and vulnerable. Instead of fantasizing about killing him.

And that leads further to who else may need help at this moment in time who could potentially walk down a dark road in the future. Taking that sort of gamble needs a lot more courage than violence and punishment.

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Thursday, December 20, 2012 8:39 AM

FREMDFIRMA


Quote:

Originally posted by AgentRouka:
And that leads further to who else may need help at this moment in time who could potentially walk down a dark road in the future. Taking that sort of gamble needs a lot more courage than violence and punishment.


Not really a gamble at all - if it fails to work then nothing is lost that would not have otherwise been, but if it works...
It's just that the payoff is so long in coming that most folks used to instant-gratification cannot stick with it.
I've at least the benefit of seeing it borne out quite a bit, in fact the person now in charge of CoTL was one of the first persons rescued and helped back when it was just VI, and a few of my guards are also folks who've been helped as well.

Mind you not everyone self-destructs the same way, as many of them wind up taking it out on themselves via drug use, suicide and things other than violence, but any way you slice it that is still a tragedy averted.

Hell, even when you CAN'T save them - it's still worth it.
Case in point: Kathleen Edward.
http://www.annarbor.com/news/tree-town-toy-owners-arrange-shopping-spr
ee-for-dying-7-year-old-cyber-bullied-by-neighbors
/
She passed on on January, but still we managed to enrich her existence, and that of others, by holding that princess day event.

-Frem

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Saturday, December 22, 2012 9:05 AM

RIONAEIRE

Beir bua agus beannacht


I'm not going to deny the idea that killing Hitler before he could kill others is appealing to me, but still more appealing is Cav's idea of making sure it doesn't happen, plus his Picasso thing made me laugh. I think this is the best thing I've ever read from Cav, most of what he writes doesn't make any sense to me, but this was good stuff.

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya

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