REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

Killers, Killers, Killers

POSTED BY: GEEZER
UPDATED: Saturday, December 22, 2012 11:05
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Monday, December 17, 2012 6:40 AM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up


After the recent spate of mass killings, the problem seems to be obvious. There are a lot of potential killers running around out there. The solution is pretty obvious as well. Get rid of the potential killers.

Should be easy to do, if we have the will.

First, who to remove.

Obviously, anyone convicted of a violent felony would be a candidate. They've shown a willingness to use violence to commit crime, so they're not likely to change. Mitigating circumstances might apply, but only in limited cases.

Folks convicted of misdemeanor volient crimes should probably be looked at as well, especially domestic violence. A lot of domestic violence escalates into murder, and it'd be better to remove those folks if possible. Domestic violence against a child would be a big red flag.

The folks who've done school, theater, and other mass killings have pretty much all been of a type, so why not require school counselors, doctors, psychiatrists/psychologists, and other folks who are trained to look for symptoms of this type (or any other type likely to be violent) to report such individuals for further testing? Government panels of trained professionals could decide who was enough of a risk to require removal from society.

Also - to aid in compliance - failure of a counselor, mental health worker, or doctor to report a potential killer would of course lead to criminal charges if someone they did not identify ended up committing a murder. ETA: Family members who fail to report such a person might also be charged.

Second, where to put them.

Just as an example, (although other places might be as suitable) you could built two north/south walls on the Upper Peninsula of Michigan: one about 10 miles west of I-75, and another about 90 miles west of that. It'd be around 100 miles of wall in all, enclosing (along with the barriers of Lakes Michigan and Superior) roughly 4000 square miles. Confiscate the property between these barriers under imminent domain and compensate the owners. Lots of it (30%?) is National Forest, anyway, so costs would be reduced. Leave the buildings and sufficient infrastructure to support a reasonably large population. Perhaps build barracks, kitchens, dining, recreation areas as well. No boats, though. Provide sufficient food, clothing, etc. It could be called, say, Coventry.

The folks determined to be too dangerous to live within our society would be transported to the Coventry facility and released there to live as they pleased. They could establish their own government, laws, rules, and customs. the only restrictions would be on the manufacture of weapons or boats. Drones would be used for observation and interdiction of such contraband.


Benefits seem obvious. A great reduction in violence in the country, less fear of some creepy kid murdering you in the mall or in your bed one night, less domestic violence, less child abuse and pedophelia, Less expense for law enforcement and incarceration, etc.

Sure, there might be some initial expense, and some folks might see a dimishment of some of their rights, but overall it would make for a much safer country, and isn't that what's important?

So who wants to sign on?


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Monday, December 17, 2012 8:51 AM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up


Interesting.

Everyone wants to stop the KILLING, but no one's interested in stopping the KILLERS.

What's your problem with wanting to segregate people with either a demonstrated propensity for violence, or a psychological profile that indicates they are likely to commit violence?

Why won't you folks address the problem of the people who commit the crimes, rather than the means they use?

Would you oppose segregating the demonstrably violent, and making sure the psychologically violence-prone get treatment?


"When your heart breaks, you choose what to fill the cracks with. Love or hate. But hate won't ever heal. Only love can do that."

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Monday, December 17, 2012 8:56 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!



Perhaps if we developed some sort of drug, which MAKES people act nice to each other...

Hmm.

Maybe we could fashion an aerosol version of the drug, to dispense it, all over the world ?

"False words are not only evil in themselves, but they infect the soul with evil." - Socrates

" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Monday, December 17, 2012 9:05 AM

PIRATENEWS

John Lee, conspiracy therapist at Hollywood award-winner History Channel-mocked SNL-spoofed PirateNew.org wooHOO!!!!!!




"There's going to be a Marxist revolution in Amerika. We need to be organized and grow the movement."
-Barack Hussein Obama Soetoro, member of the Young Marxist Club at Occidental College
http://www.americanthinker.com/2011/02/meeting_young_obama.html

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Monday, December 17, 2012 11:53 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


You've got a point - there's very little street crime in places like North Korea. If what you're after is locking up every potential killer, then a right-wing authoritarian police state might be your idea of paradise.

Of course, you'll have to figure out who's a potential first. That means you'll have to probably spend a nickel or two on health care - specifically MENTAL health care - and conservatives will fight this even more than they'll fight any effort to restrict access to the tools killers use to kill.


I'm reminded of the 80s, when drunk driving seemed to be an epidemic. Remember how we rounded up everyone who had ever had a drink, and cordoned them off in their own prisons? And then, just to be sure, we just outlawed driving altogether? Remember that?



"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence [sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero

"I was wrong" - Hero, 2012

Mitt Romney, introducing his running mate: "Join me in welcoming the next President of the United States, Paul Ryan!"

Rappy's response? "You're lying, gullible ( believing in some BS you heard on msnbc ) or hard of hearing."

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Monday, December 17, 2012 12:06 PM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Quote:

I'm reminded of the 80s, when drunk driving seemed to be an epidemic.


Hello,

I've often wondered. Did this actually get any better?

--Anthony


Note to Self:
Raptor - woman testifying about birth control is a slut (the term applies.)
Context: http://tinyurl.com/d6ozfej
Six - Wow, isn't Niki quite the CUNT? And, yes, I spell that in all caps....
http://tinyurl.com/bdjgbpe
Wulf - Niki is a stupid fucking bitch who should hurry up and die.
Context: http://tinyurl.com/afve3r9

“The stupid neither forgive nor forget; the naive forgive and forget; the wise forgive but do not forget.” -T. S. Szasz

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Monday, December 17, 2012 12:48 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by ANTHONYT:
Quote:

I'm reminded of the 80s, when drunk driving seemed to be an epidemic.


Hello,

I've often wondered. Did this actually get any better?

--Anthony


Note to Self:
Raptor - woman testifying about birth control is a slut (the term applies.)
Context: http://tinyurl.com/d6ozfej
Six - Wow, isn't Niki quite the CUNT? And, yes, I spell that in all caps....
http://tinyurl.com/bdjgbpe
Wulf - Niki is a stupid fucking bitch who should hurry up and die.
Context: http://tinyurl.com/afve3r9

“The stupid neither forgive nor forget; the naive forgive and forget; the wise forgive but do not forget.” -T. S. Szasz





According to NHTSA, drunk driving deaths have been reduced by more than half.

Quote:

According to the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA) 32,885 people died in traffic crashes in 2010 in the United States (latest figures available), including an estimated 10,228 people who died in drunk driving crashes, accounting for 31% of all traffic deaths last year.

Since NHTSA began recording alcohol-related statistics in 1982, drunk driving fatalities have decreased 52% from 21,113 in 1982. Since the inception of The Century Council and our national efforts to fight drunk driving, drunk driving fatalities have declined 35% from 15,827 in 1991. (Source: NHTSA/FARS, 2011)



http://www.centurycouncil.org/drunk-driving/drunk-driving-fatalities-n
ational-statistics







"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence [sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero

"I was wrong" - Hero, 2012

Mitt Romney, introducing his running mate: "Join me in welcoming the next President of the United States, Paul Ryan!"

Rappy's response? "You're lying, gullible ( believing in some BS you heard on msnbc ) or hard of hearing."

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Tuesday, December 18, 2012 3:51 AM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up


Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:
According to NHTSA, drunk driving deaths have been reduced by more than half.



Due to the government seizing all those dangerous assault cars, no doubt.


"When your heart breaks, you choose what to fill the cracks with. Love or hate. But hate won't ever heal. Only love can do that."

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Tuesday, December 18, 2012 8:06 AM

STORYMARK


Quote:

Originally posted by Geezer:
Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:
According to NHTSA, drunk driving deaths have been reduced by more than half.



Due to the government seizing all those dangerous assault cars, no doubt.


"When your heart breaks, you choose what to fill the cracks with. Love or hate. But hate won't ever heal. Only love can do that."



Boy, you gun nuts never get tired of that fallacy, do ya?




Excuse me while I soak in all these sweet, sweet conservative tears.

"We will never have the elite, smart people on our side." -- Rick "Frothy" Santorum

"Goram it kid, let's frak this thing and go home! Engage!"

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Tuesday, December 18, 2012 8:44 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by Geezer:
Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:
According to NHTSA, drunk driving deaths have been reduced by more than half.



Due to the government seizing all those dangerous assault cars, no doubt.





Cites?


No, due to subtle and not-so-subtle changes to the DUI laws, coupled with more aggressive enforcement of the existing laws.

In other words, when we see that there's a problem, we can choose to ignore it and pretend it doesn't exist (your solution), or we can adjust and readjust to see what works.

Has anyone here suggested confiscating all your guns? Anyone?

Because from the crap you're spewing, I have to wonder if you just got back from Burning Man. That's the last time I saw a straw man that big.







"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence [sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero

"I was wrong" - Hero, 2012

Mitt Romney, introducing his running mate: "Join me in welcoming the next President of the United States, Paul Ryan!"

Rappy's response? "You're lying, gullible ( believing in some BS you heard on msnbc ) or hard of hearing."

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Tuesday, December 18, 2012 1:24 PM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up


Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:
Quote:

Originally posted by Geezer:
Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:
According to NHTSA, drunk driving deaths have been reduced by more than half.



Due to the government seizing all those dangerous assault cars, no doubt.





Cites?


No, due to subtle and not-so-subtle changes to the DUI laws, coupled with more aggressive enforcement of the existing laws.

In other words, when we see that there's a problem, we can choose to ignore it and pretend it doesn't exist (your solution), or we can adjust and readjust to see what works.



You mean like this, that I posted in the "Guns, Guns,Guns" thread yesterday (bottom of page 2)?

Quote:

Originally posted by Geezer:
Quote:

Originally posted by HKCavalier:
And now you propose a training requirement similar to the one required to get your CCW license. (Something I proposed on page one of this thread which no one seemed to notice. Y'know, "gun literacy.")



I've seen proposals like this a few times, and, while it might reduce the number of accidental shootings, I can't see it as doing much about a tragedy like at Sandy Hook. Seems like finding and fixing the folks who do such things might be a better solution.

I've proposed several times recently that reporting - by school counselors, doctors, psychiatric professionals, and family members - of folks who might be prone to mass killing should be encouraged, so those persons might get evaluation, treatment, or possibly confinement; possibly with disincentives for failure to make such a report. No one seems interested in this idea. Any idea why?

I'd note that the reduction in drunk driving fatalities from 26143 in 1982 (60% of all fatalities) to 12,744 in 2009 (38%), wasn't due to the government taking everyone's cars away. They increased enforcement and punishment of the folks caught (though I'd like to see more), and increased education. While there's still a way to go, the process seems to be working. Why not something similar for potential violence, that focuses on the possible offender rather than their tool of choice, be it gun or car.



Way ahead of you, Mike.

Quote:

Has anyone here suggested confiscating all your guns? Anyone?


From the "Gun Debate Gains Traction..." thread.

Quote:

Originally posted by Jongsstraw:
If 20 kids, each shot multiple times in five minutes, isn't the absolute last straw, then what the hell is? I'll support Obama on this, and if they have to kick in every door to get these automatic and semi-automatic weapons I'll volunteer to help. Only a parent can fully understand what these Newtown parents are dealing with.



Not all, but about half.

So I'm suggesting improved mental health treatment, easier access to mental health services, actions to reduce the stigma of self-reporting mental health issues, and - as a last resort - reporting by mental health professionals, school counselors, etc. if they think someone is dangerous.

Got any better suggestions? Or just the usual snark?


"When your heart breaks, you choose what to fill the cracks with. Love or hate. But hate won't ever heal. Only love can do that."

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Tuesday, December 18, 2012 1:35 PM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Quote:

I've proposed several times recently that reporting - by school counselors, doctors, psychiatric professionals, and family members - of folks who might be prone to mass killing should be encouraged, so those persons might get evaluation, treatment, or possibly confinement; possibly with disincentives for failure to make such a report. No one seems interested in this idea.

First, thank you. That's far better than the "nobody with a mental illness can have a gun, or be in the house with a gun anyone else owns" that I keep seeing around. That one's really got smoke coming out of my ears...

And yes, Jong got emotional when he wrote that, but if you read almost all of his posts in all these debates, he's less emotional and more sensible. But the truth is that NOBODY is going to do that, not now, not ever. Even Feinstein's bill talks about "grandfathering" in existing semi-auto weapons, and that's all that will ever happen.

So you've shown one example where one person emotionally said they'd like to confiscate all semi-auto weapons ("autos" doesn't count, we've been there/done that). Which can't/won't be done anyway. Your argument falls flat just as it does from all the pro-gun people here. You can keep twisting it all day, but the fact is nobody's gonna take your guns away, period. Now, if we could just talk from a rational point, leaving out this "They're gonna take my guns!" bullshit, maybe we could communicate.

Again I ask: Why can't we deal with BOTH the problems in our mental-health system AND stopping the FUTURE sale of semi-automatic weapons and high-count magazines! What's wrong with doing both at the same time?

Tit for tat got us where we are today. If we want to be grownups, we need to resist the ugliness. If we each did, this would be a better reflection on Firefly and a more welcome place. I will try.

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Tuesday, December 18, 2012 4:09 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


How do you plan to pay for all that mental health outreach?


For that matter, how does anyone plan on paying to arm teachers in schools? Who pays for their weapons? Their training? Who takes responsibility and liability when one of their guns ends up in the wrong hands (again) and more kids are dead behind it?

And who pays for more law enforcement and education to reduce gun violence?


Let me know when you figure that out, since I *KNOW* you won't be willing to raise a single penny of taxes for it.

I'm all ears.



"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence [sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero

"I was wrong" - Hero, 2012

Mitt Romney, introducing his running mate: "Join me in welcoming the next President of the United States, Paul Ryan!"

Rappy's response? "You're lying, gullible ( believing in some BS you heard on msnbc ) or hard of hearing."

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Tuesday, December 18, 2012 4:13 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by Niki2:


Again I ask: Why can't we deal with BOTH the problems in our mental-health system AND stopping the FUTURE sale of semi-automatic weapons and high-count magazines! What's wrong with doing both at the same time?




Apparently if you do the one that doesn't cost money, there will be a civil war. "Hero" the intrepid lawyer says so. Of course, he's so dumb that he actually hears people say maybe we shouldn't be selling such stuff to the general public, and he thinks that means Obama's coming for his guns.

Anyone who ever says it takes smarts to get through law school, I'll just point 'em to "Hero" here to put the lie to that myth.



"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence [sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero

"I was wrong" - Hero, 2012

Mitt Romney, introducing his running mate: "Join me in welcoming the next President of the United States, Paul Ryan!"

Rappy's response? "You're lying, gullible ( believing in some BS you heard on msnbc ) or hard of hearing."

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Tuesday, December 18, 2012 7:58 PM

MAGONSDAUGHTER


Quote:

The folks who've done school, theater, and other mass killings have pretty much all been of a type, so why not require school counselors, doctors, psychiatrists/psychologists, and other folks who are trained to look for symptoms of this type (or any other type likely to be violent) to report such individuals for further testing? Government panels of trained professionals could decide who was enough of a risk to require removal from society.

Also - to aid in compliance - failure of a counselor, mental health worker, or doctor to report a potential killer would of course lead to criminal charges if someone they did not identify ended up committing a murder. ETA: Family members who fail to report such a person might also be charged.



I'm not sure of laws in the US, but here we have mandatory reporting (religious clerics currently excempt - but that is another story). So say for example I have a client who tells me they are going to commit an act of violence, I must report it to the relevant authority. Counsellors, teachers, any professional really has a duty of care to act on these kind of statements.

Well I see a lot of stressed, disturbed people. People can say all sorts of things and not do them, and other people can present as nothing more than a bit stressed and go home to carry out acts of terrible violence. I have had only one client murdered by their partner, thankfully only one, and I never saw it coming even though I had seen them both.

Risk management around this stuff is really, really hard. Even when I do report, the police can do virtially nothing. You see you have to have committed a crime to be charged, and even if you are threatening, there has to be some pretty solid evidence before action can take place.

So it is interesting to me, that rather than allow some regulation of weapons, you have proposed some ideas which would seriously infringe on people's civil liberties. It's like you'd prefer to throw out the baby and keep the bathwater. Kind of confusing.

This is not some sci fi movie where you can predict murder or crime, and premeptively arrest or restrict people. People are unpredictable. So even though murderers might fit a profile, plenty of non murderers also fit the profile. The majority of socially awkward, misfits just turn out to lead kind of unhappy lives without resorting to mass murder.

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Tuesday, December 18, 2012 8:03 PM

MAGONSDAUGHTER


Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:


For that matter, how does anyone plan on paying to arm teachers in schools? Who pays for their weapons? Their training? Who takes responsibility and liability when one of their guns ends up in the wrong hands (again) and more kids are dead behind it?

And who pays for more law enforcement and education to reduce gun violence?


Let me know when you figure that out, since I *KNOW* you won't be willing to raise a single penny of taxes for it.

I'm all ears.





And do you really want to live somewhere where people are armed to the back teeth, in pre schools, and playgrounds and sports clubs etc etc??? IT already seems horrific to me that schools have security guards and that people would be prepared to live in a warzone rather than take some preventitive steps to remove harm.

People want to avoid tyranny? I think living where everyone is armed and ready to kill is a tyranny.

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Wednesday, December 19, 2012 12:09 AM

FREMDFIRMA


Quote:

Originally posted by MAGONSDAUGHTER:
I'm not sure of laws in the US, but here we have mandatory reporting (religious clerics currently excempt - but that is another story). So say for example I have a client who tells me they are going to commit an act of violence, I must report it to the relevant authority. Counsellors, teachers, any professional really has a duty of care to act on these kind of statements.


We have some of that here, but unfortunately that is in direct relation to the problem, as folks who might otherwise seek out available mental health resources do not dare as they fear that mandatory reporting thing might end up with the doc misinterpreting one of thier statements, and depending on interpretation of that mandate, also dare not admit criminal activity, drug use, or really, even talk about their damn problems, cause they have no assurance that such would not be handed over to law enforcement for brownie points.

I mean, a direct statement - "I am going to go there and kill everyone in that place", MIGHT be rhetorical, or they might mean it, sure, and something like that I could see...
But - "Some days I just wanna kill EVERYBODY!" (and frankly, who HASN'T felt that way sometimes?) that statement could ALSO be mistaken and used in the same fashion, so therin lies the problem.

A lot of folks who could USE some help, who might actually WANT it, do not dare because of the limited confidentiality - especially those who have engaged in morally dubious actions directly related to the "issues" they have, or who's problems came as a result of that conduct or the necessity of engaging in it.
And yeah, that's a personal beef with me, cause it bites ME on the ass.
A lot of people can come to me, and know that confidentiality is utterly, ultimately, assured...

Who do *I* go to ?

-Frem

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Wednesday, December 19, 2012 12:40 AM

MAGONSDAUGHTER


Quote:

Originally posted by FREMDFIRMA:

We have some of that here, but unfortunately that is in direct relation to the problem, as folks who might otherwise seek out available mental health resources do not dare as they fear that mandatory reporting thing might end up with the doc misinterpreting one of thier statements, and depending on interpretation of that mandate, also dare not admit criminal activity, drug use, or really, even talk about their damn problems, cause they have no assurance that such would not be handed over to law enforcement for brownie points.

I mean, a direct statement - "I am going to go there and kill everyone in that place", MIGHT be rhetorical, or they might mean it, sure, and something like that I could see...
But - "Some days I just wanna kill EVERYBODY!" (and frankly, who HASN'T felt that way sometimes?) that statement could ALSO be mistaken and used in the same fashion, so therin lies the problem.

A lot of folks who could USE some help, who might actually WANT it, do not dare because of the limited confidentiality - especially those who have engaged in morally dubious actions directly related to the "issues" they have, or who's problems came as a result of that conduct or the necessity of engaging in it.
And yeah, that's a personal beef with me, cause it bites ME on the ass.
A lot of people can come to me, and know that confidentiality is utterly, ultimately, assured...

Who do *I* go to ?

-Frem



Well I guess that I have learned to live with the concept that there is no such thing as absolute confidentiality, and my main priority is harm to children. No way I am keeping that to myself. Drug use, other criminal activity - the law is kind of grey and i am on the the dark side of grey. BUt when it comes to harm of kids....that is a different priority.

Adults make their decisions, stay or leave violent relationships, abuse drugs, etc.... But kids are different, they have no choice.

So unless someone says to me - I am going to cut her throat (and it has been said) or shoot down a school - I'm pretty much staying stum.

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Wednesday, December 19, 2012 11:38 AM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up


Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:
How do you plan to pay for all that mental health outreach?



Could it cost any more than the bureaucracy needed to confiscate all semi-automatic firearms and recompense the owners?


Quote:

For that matter, how does anyone plan on paying to arm teachers in schools? Who pays for their weapons? Their training? Who takes responsibility and liability when one of their guns ends up in the wrong hands (again) and more kids are dead behind it?


Why would I want teachers to have guns? There was an interesting discussion about school safety on the Diane Rehm show this morning, and it focused a good bit on what schools could do, and the closest the experts got to arming teachers was having a resident police officer on campus. Most of the discussion was about improving physical security of locks, windows, etc, and increasing awareness of staff and students. Another major point was the need to identify and help folks who have the potential to harm others. Hmmm. That sounds familiar.

http://thedianerehmshow.org/shows/2012-12-19/debate-over-ways-improve-
school-safety


Quote:

And who pays for more law enforcement and education to reduce gun violence?

The taxpayers. Per a guest on the show above, there was a big effort after the Columbine shootings to beef up school security, but in the years since it slacked off. Maybe folks need to start seeing this as a long-term project, not a quick fix.


Quote:

Let me know when you figure that out, since I *KNOW* you won't be willing to raise a single penny of taxes for it.


I see you haven't been paying attention, yet again. I've been saying for quite a while that I'd be happy to see the Bush tax cuts phased out pretty deep into the middle class. I'd be perfectly happy to see those taxes go for both mental health improvement and better school security.

Quote:

I'm all ears.


I kind'a figured there was no brain involved.


"When your heart breaks, you choose what to fill the cracks with. Love or hate. But hate won't ever heal. Only love can do that."

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Wednesday, December 19, 2012 12:27 PM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Frem, your paranoia is showing. People do, all the time, talk to their psychiatrists (or more often, psychologists or therapists) about drugs, their problems, how they'd like to kill so-and-so, all the time. YOU don't, and certainly some don't, but many, many do. A p-doc, etc., has no requirement to report anyone who does not state the direct intent of criminality or harm to others, and any p-doc worth their salt knows their patient well enough to know if they're serious. If anything, p-docs are far more HESITANT to report anyone, and harm has come about again and again because of it.
Quote:

Could it cost any more than the bureaucracy needed to confiscate all semi-automatic firearms

I believe that's what you guys call a "straw man argument", yes? Given that nobody, bureaucracy or otherwise, is EVER going to confiscate ALL of ANYTHING, y'know? And compensating for any guns collected otherwise would be easy with a gun tax.

Who'll pay for mental-health services? Those who have insurance, through their premiums of course, as they do right now. Thankfully now that it's COVERED, which it wasn't up until recently. Another reason those seeking help didn't go for it before. If you want to talk money, covering everyone AND increasing mental-health services would cost less than what we pay now for all those people who only get medical treatment by going to the E.R., not to mention the loss of productivity of those who don't go until they have no choice, and all the other ramifications and costs of people only being able to get medical treatment at the ER.

Mike:
Quote:

Anyone who ever says it takes smarts to get through law school

or whoever thinks "Hero" is actually a lawyer... Thing is, it DOES take smarts to get through law school, and take the exams, etc., which is why I'm convinced "Hero" isn't one. I've never known a stupid lawyer, and I worked for them all my working life. They may be devoid of OTHER things, but smarts? No.

Tit for tat got us where we are today. If we want to be grownups, we need to resist the ugliness. If we each did, this would be a better reflection on Firefly and a more welcome place. I will try.

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Wednesday, December 19, 2012 12:34 PM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Hello,

Frem, paranoid? How about the patients? That's why they need help, right?

A lot of people worry about social stigma, lack of privacy, and removal of their rights. I've seen someone baker-acted. It ain't pretty, and I don't think that person will ever reach out for help again.

You're fooling yourself if you think people who need help are all comfortable with their safety and privacy in the hands of mental health professionals. It would be good to heed Frem's words, because he didn't invent them in a vacuum.

--Anthony


Note to Self:
Raptor - woman testifying about birth control is a slut (the term applies.)
Context: http://tinyurl.com/d6ozfej
Six - Wow, isn't Niki quite the CUNT? And, yes, I spell that in all caps....
http://tinyurl.com/bdjgbpe
Wulf - Niki is a stupid fucking bitch who should hurry up and die.
Context: http://tinyurl.com/afve3r9

“The stupid neither forgive nor forget; the naive forgive and forget; the wise forgive but do not forget.” -T. S. Szasz

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Wednesday, December 19, 2012 7:14 PM

FREMDFIRMA



In case Anthony didn't make it clear enough, lemme connect the dots for you.

Remember, I deal with folks who've gone psychologically iatrogenic BECAUSE "official" mental health personnel were either complicit in the abuse of them, railroading them into a Hellcamp, or sold them out somehow and they are no longer CAPABLE of the level of trust required to treat them cause they go into defensive lockdown mode when in their presence...

This turns disastrous when official personnel try to press the issue with the force-resistance-more-force model, followed or abetted by drugs, cause it soon results in acting out, often violently so - which to its logical extreme results in the rare few kids I've had to deal with who would become downright homicidally angry if confronted by conventional psych people.

Hell, they tried to pull that shit on ME, back in the day, when the second chance school tried to get their pet go-to psych doc to "evaluate" me right out of their hair(1), a common practice at the time and totally jammed up by my refusal to utter so much as a single word in his presence.

A high school tried it later, and THAT one got totally, blatantly trolled and wound up with me laughing in his face, he took it well enough since he was really uncomfortable with being ordered to do it in the first place, and that whole mess set us on a course to eventually become friends and make him one of our more useful allies - mind you he ADMITTED that he was pressured into pulling that stunt some years later.

The Army tried to it too, only to have the legs TOTALLY cut out from under them by Lindyear when he threatened to classify any report they tried to make to where it'd never see the light of day - this was ironic cause while he damn well meant it, I *was* pretty damn bonkers at the time, a flat out nihilist who'd just lost their only viable parent and link to the rest of humanity, but it's not like they were actually intent on "helping", so much as they rather wanted rid of me.
I don't blame them for this, but it's a failure on the professional ethics of anyone who agrees to that crap.

Schools in particular are notorious for this bullshit, and that is WHY the students who are having problems do not seek help, rarely is any actual confidentiality maintained, and many schools have their little go-to docs(2) who are gauranteed to write the "correct" diagnosis regardless of what the students problems really are, or whether they have any at all.

So yeah there's a seedy underbelly, lack of ethics and certain collusion amongst mental health personnel which does their credibility and trustworthiness no favors at all, and running afoul of it as a student tends to discourage adults from ever seeking help when they could really use it.

-Frem

(1) This failure resulted in the school going to the local CPS, colluding with them to sever aid to my mother, who was dealing with the aftermath of a bitter divorce, and by that action consider her financially insolvent, allowing them to declare me a ward of the state and try the short lived and disastrous attempt to ship me to a friggin hellcamp - by the time they ran me down and quite literally treed me in the wilds of loch raven she had proof of financial solvency and a lawyer who was kinda sweet on her all over their ass.

(2) This in one case being a certain doctor Bacharach currently in use by the Maryland school system, who will 100% of the time write a diagnosis of ADHD and inevitable prescription, who's already been in hot water more than once for it and got off easy, even after one of his patients killed another in relation to it, cause he's so... useful.

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Thursday, December 20, 2012 12:48 PM

MAGONSDAUGHTER


Quote:

We are now as a nation-state practically drowning in a fast-flowing, deep river of blood. As we thrash about wildly trying to keep our heads up, however, we also shut our eyes and minds to the single common denominator of and answer to our haplessness: The overwhelming majority of the gunmen are white men.

Instead, like one-note-Johnnies, “liberals” have aimed straight at the gun issue, while "conservatives," seemingly insensitive to the victims' pain and are unable to actually see the blood. They counter by waving the Scond Amendment high in the air. See Ann Coulter’s tweet immediately following the shooting: “more guns, less mass shootings

For others it’s all about mental illness and the ongoing health care crisis in America (despite “Obamacare”).

Jackson Katz is an author and social critic. He asks us to “(i)magine if 61 out of 62 mass killings were done by women [or black men]? Would that [their gender or race] be seen as merely incidental and relegated to the margins of discourse? No. It would be the first thing people talked about.”

But because we are dealing with white, middle class men, the most powerful and privileged group in this society, no one dares to ask the question. Not, as Katz suggests, the knee-jerk questions: “Where did he get the gun?” or “Why wasn’t he on medication?” But: “What is happening with white men?” (Emphasis added).

“This is about masculinity and it’s about manhood,” Katz added.

In America, unlike almost anywhere else on earth, the gun, more so than any other icon you can name, symbolizes manhood and masculinity. It is the ultimate phallic symbol.

Katz goes on: “So much of gun culture in the U.S. is about masculinity but it’s unspoken. Femininity simply isn’t constructed in a way that teaches women to use violence as a means to an end. One of the ways we can understand violence is as an external manifestation of internal pain.”

Men are only allowed to experience certain emotions, principally anger. Violence and anger go hand-in-hand as “acceptable” forms of male expression. “Men are rewarded for achieving certain goals and for establishing of dominance through the use of violence,” Katz says.

Joe Madison is a talk show host out of Washington, D.C. On Dec. 19, he noted that “Nobody’s gonna call you a boy if you’re walkin’ around with an AK-47.” He said that guns don’t just indicate but validate manhood in this society.

And this culture of violence extends from the “disturbed,” or lonely, or low-self-esteemed individual straight through to the taking (read: enslaving, colonizing, raping, robbing, stealing, conquering, plundering and punishing) of the “other,” of women, of whole villages, countries, nations, nation-states, and of entire continents. The most salient question here is who over the last 500 years has led the world in these pursuits? And, for most of that history, at the point of a gun.

Katz puts it nicely: “Militarism is, in a sense, a projection of force and power as the assertion of national manhood.”

Vengeance plays a huge role in this dynamic, too. “Often these shooters are harboring resentment -- they retreat into themselves and then develop these revenge fantasies,” Katz says. “Most of the school shootings over the past couple of decades have been revenge killings.” The victims are mere “props” in his stage act. The gunman’s gun gives voice to a terror-striking and vengeful soliloquy.

As men, particularly as white men, “we” are socialized to objectify the world and all its contents. That’s why capitalism is so popular, a virtual article of faith, among most “Western” men. Capitalism requires no concern for anyone or anything beyond achieving strictly individualized, personal “profit.” They are socialized to not just believe but to know that they are entitled by God or by their very essence to financial success, access to women, power. When, for whatever reason, they are denied these “things,” they feel betrayed of their birthright. Many seethe in a lifelong funk of quiet desperation and longing. Others, far too many, turn to the most convenient, reliable and time-tested form of masculine validation available: violence, gun violence.

“As a white man, the assumption is that you are the center of the world. Your needs should be met. You should be successful,” Katz says. They themselves become “victims,” in other words, when they don’t get what they are “supposed” to have. For them, every aspect of life is always a zero-sum proposition. Anybody else’s success is always viewed by them as having been obtained at their expense, as their “loss.”

“This explains the cultural energy on the right in this past generation – so many of these men see themselves as victims of multiculturalism and of feminism,” he adds. “It’s undermining the cultural centrality of male authority.” Katz points out that we can see this worldview manifesting itself in the Men’s Rights Movement. “They are at the front line making the argument that men are the true victims.”

Perhaps we’re just dealing with a form of sociopathy? Perhaps. A sociopath is nothing more than someone who lacks empathy. “Well,” says Katz, “we socialize empathy out of boys all the time. Sociopathy is the extreme manifestation of the way we socialize boys in our society.”

But this, of course, is not just about “masculinity.” In its full Western European and North American manifestations, it is “white masculinity” that is the driving force. As white men will be overwhelmed soon by sheer force of numbers, expect these incidents to become even more frequent, more vicious, more terrible.

So, we need to stop blaming the guns, or the lack of mental health care, or the video games. Rather, it is the society itself in which these boys are brought to manhood that needs radical change and treatment.



http://www.allvoices.com/contributed-news/13642401-adam-lanza-the-ulti
mate-angry-white-male-part-ii

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Thursday, December 20, 2012 12:55 PM

MAGONSDAUGHTER


Frem, you always look at the worst case scenarios in everything. Sure there are abuses in systems, unacceptable abuses. But isn't there also a lot of stuff that works. Mental health services are not always corrupt and out to use information for heinous reasons. There are plenty of people who have benefited from services, from seeing pyschs and counsellors, from the intervention of mental health teams. And from disclosure of intent to harm, I might also add.

I find your responses to things so extreme. There is no middle ground. I can't relate to so much of what you say because it just feels like I live in a different reality.

I've worked within the frame work that I do for so long that I have no issue with limits to confidentiality, which I am clear about up front when people see me. I could never, in good faith, ever keep something confidential if I thought it would seriously result in harm to another person.

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Thursday, December 20, 2012 5:39 PM

FREMDFIRMA



Wasn't my intention to come off as extreme, so much as to point out the ugly underbelly of the problem, which is very likely much, much worse here than in your neck of the woods cause our medical care system in general is such a totally screwed up pastiche of the worst of every system.

Gotta admit the problems to solve em, and a BIG one is the lack of youth rights, and thus no great desire to respect personhood and confidentiality amongst youth mental health providers, especially those on the payroll of a school which might have less than noble intentions if they consider the student a "square peg" - it's a common problem unfortunately.

Far be it for me to say this, but there's too MUCH grey area, there needs to be a strict set of standards and limitations with really stiff penalties for violation of the patients confidentiality or privacy outside of a serious, imminent threat to other people - and tighter ones for youth because rolling/outing them to their school/parents is in most cases absolutely the wrong thing to do.

It's simple math really, or programmer-speak.

IF a more reasonable and standardized set of limits is held to...
THEN more people might have the confidence to seek help when they need it.

But if there is no assurance you won't be turned on or sold out, where is the incentive to seek that assistance ?

At it's worst end, being forced to see such personnel by folks who the youth KNOWS have bad intentions leads almost inevitably to them becoming Psychologically Iatrogenic, and not seeking out help when they are older, allowing problems to fester till the meltdown, and that is a problem we can head off at the pass if playing along with such games has serious consequences for the mental health personnel who do so.

This of course hinders folks with good intentions as well, since holding the line against ones own employer in a confidentiality issue, or refusing to play along with the diagnosis they WANT, can result very quickly in termination of employment, I've known at least one school social worker who got the boot for that one.

-Frem

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Thursday, December 20, 2012 6:34 PM

MAGONSDAUGHTER


Well I think sometimes you can focus on the ugly underbelly to the detriment of finding a solution. I find that kind of thinking on these boards quite a bit. Verges a little on the edge of paranoia.

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Friday, December 21, 2012 12:19 AM

FREMDFIRMA



Maybe a bit, but I think we really do NEED that perspective, and I usually do have at least the seed of a possible solution to the problem, plus the information and multiple perspectives in these discussions can help formulate solutions as well, even if these discussions are just a bunch of yahoos around a table somewhere on the internet.

Case in point, I've been pondering the totality of response and alternative solutions OTHER than a hail of lead in the case of a potentive/active multiple shooter, and while we don't service any likely locations for that some of our sister companies around here do, okay ?

And I most certainly wanna discuss this with them when I get the chance cause I think we've developed a better and more effective response plan, based around a recent change in Michigan law regarding Tasers, which used to be illegal to possess here(1) - and some thoughts on the Tueller Drill/20 foot rush.
Factually a Taser can lock someone up and drop them faster than bullets, especially if they're armored cause the only person I even know of who has access to Taser-proof attire is me, and that is a secret I will not share for personal reasons.

Anyhows, with the whole mental health aspect, two things need to happen.
First: We need a clear set of standards and limits.
Second: They should apply to both adults and minors.

Not such a hard thing to ask for, I think.

-Frem
(1) Said law had utterly no exception provision for Law Enforcement personnel, making each act of them carrying or using one a Felony, thus allowing us to force repeal of said act - cause elsewise they were gonna have to be charged for those offenses, amusing irony this, but also chilling, just how they let the boys in blue ignore the law.

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Friday, December 21, 2012 1:37 AM

MAGONSDAUGHTER


It's kind of astonishing to me that tasers are illegal and rocket launchers are not.

I'm all for code of conduct around mental health, for both kids and adults.

When more info starts coming out, I'll post on the forthcoming Royal Commission into child abuse and the Catholic Church. It should be of interest to you, Frem. So much of the abuse was in institutions with the most vulnerable of children. Shocking,as is the constant cover up and excuses by the church.

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Friday, December 21, 2012 11:00 AM

DREAMTROVE


Geez

I disagree that they've been the same "type" killers that is, or that no one else would fit that profile and then be victimized. It seems to me that these people just flip. The Batman killer was on his way to becoming a neurologist when he suddenly decided to become a character from an 80s batman comic.

What I have noticed is that they go on mad gun buying sprees prior to the killing, buying far more than one would actually ever need. That might be a red flag that someone could spot.


PN

That, and he's giving the police predator drones.

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Friday, December 21, 2012 12:59 PM

FREMDFIRMA


Quote:

Originally posted by Magonsdaughter:
When more info starts coming out, I'll post on the forthcoming Royal Commission into child abuse and the Catholic Church. It should be of interest to you, Frem. So much of the abuse was in institutions with the most vulnerable of children. Shocking,as is the constant cover up and excuses by the church.


Oh no doubt, one particular facet of it which set my hackles to raising was something called The Church of the Servants of The Paraclete - which was more or less a "recycling center" where they sent notorious abusers till the most recent incident blew over before sticking them somewhere else amongst the unaware without so much as warning them, and most of the "counselling" they supposedly received there revolved around how not to get caught!
Grrrr


What upset me most though, at the beginning of this, was the No-Such-Thing syndrome, when folks like me initially tried to address this we were given the same treatment as PN gets, even after it became an all but open-secret.
I got involved originally as a sideshow to going after the Hellcamps, which were also considered at the time a myth, naught more than an urban legend, but one that turned out to be revoltingly and shockingly true - forcing society to face that didn't make me many friends, as you can well imagine.

But I guess sometimes society NEEDS someone with a shovel who's willing to dive right down into the sewer with these ratbastards and drag them out into the light of day - cause that really is what it takes, to drag it out into the public arena where the outrage of the public them comes down on them like the hammer of the gods, but that's a job most folk can't do, and frankly no one should ever HAVE to.

-Frem

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Friday, December 21, 2012 1:21 PM

MAGONSDAUGHTER


Interestingly, duty of care around reporting abuse does not extend to clergy if the disclosure has been made in confession. I think this exemption needs to go, but the Catholic Church are going to fight it.

Their reputation is in tatters in this country.

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Friday, December 21, 2012 1:43 PM

FREMDFIRMA


I dunno if that would fly from a legal standpoint, but...

Yanno, from a moral/religious standpoint they deserve a thrashing - despite my inherent hostility towards Christian beliefs I happen to know them better than most of those who claim to practice them, and confession confidentiality aside, even by their own rules one has a responsibility to his fellow man, and to the governments of earth.

By the very precepts of their own religion they MUST assume responsibility for the conduct of their clergy and are obligated to repent of thier sins, not bear false witness and redeem themselves by making it right with the victims and their families - and that ain't my judgement, it is that of their own God, in His own Word.

In another world, with another upbringing, I prolly coulda been one hell of a preacher (pun firmly intended) of the fire-and-brimstone stripe, and thus I've little doubt I could lay down a sermon onto them from their own belief system which'd leave em quaking in their boots on this.

Problem is, they already KNOW all that I would ladle upon them, they just don't seem to care.
Which means they ARE going to hell.
Small comfort that this is for us.

-Frem

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Friday, December 21, 2012 1:45 PM

MAGONSDAUGHTER


yes, I could definitely see you thundering away on the pulpit.

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Saturday, December 22, 2012 11:05 AM

RIONAEIRE

Beir bua agus beannacht


Geezer, I'd be careful if I were you. I think you were partially teasing, but I'm not completely sure. I agree that things need to be changed so we can prevent people from doing these things, but creating a taddle tailing gestapo system of profiling seems like something that would do more harm than good.

Frem and Magons both have good points regarding confidentuality, its a hard issue.

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya

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