REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

GOP-backed bill is most serious attack on America's Wilderness Act in history

POSTED BY: NIKI2
UPDATED: Friday, December 7, 2012 16:19
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Sunday, December 2, 2012 6:58 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


As we conservationists/environmentalists have always known, we never "win" any battle. A change in the power in Washington can erase anything we worked long and hard to accomplish, with the stroke of a pen. And here we go again.
Quote:

Conservationists and wilderness enthusiasts across America are mobilizing to defeat a bill passed by the House of Representatives in April that would eviscerate the 1964 Wilderness Act.

Deceptively entitled the Sportsmen’s Heritage Act, the bill (H.R. 4089) purports to protect hunting, fishing, and recreational shooting. The bill is being pushed by powerful groups like the National Rifle Association and Safari Club International and supported by some of the most anti-wilderness Republicans in Congress. And it would effectively gut the Wilderness Act and protections for every wilderness in America's 110-million-acre National Wilderness Preservation System – everywhere from the Boundary Waters Canoe Area Wilderness in Minnesota to the Selway-Bitterroot Wilderness along the Montana-Idaho border that I can see from my home.

The House bill's provisions could still become law during the current lame-duck session of Congress. Though the Senate is considering a different sportsmen’s bill that does not include the harmful elements, the Senate bill could eventually be merged with the devastating House bill in order to pass both chambers.

The Wilderness Act eloquently defines wilderness as “an area where the earth and its community of life are untrammeled by man, where man himself is a visitor who does not remain." The statute further designates wilderness as an area that retains “its primeval character and influence, without permanent improvements or human habitation” and is “protected and managed so as to preserve its natural conditions.”

But this great legacy of American Wilderness is essentially destroyed by H.R. 4089 in several key ways.

First, H.R. 4089 elevates hunting, fishing, shooting, and wildlife management above wilderness protection within designated wilderness areas. Visitors or wildlife managers could drive motor vehicles and build roads, cabins, dams, hunting blinds, aircraft landing strips, and much more in wildernesses if any of these activities could be rationalized as facilitating opportunities for hunting, fishing, shooting, or managing fish and wildlife.

The only limitation in H.R. 4089 on motor vehicles or development is that the activity must be related to hunting, fishing, shooting, or wildlife management, though that need not be its only or even primary use. In reality, almost any recreational or management activity could be shoehorned into one of these exceptions and thereby exempted from Wilderness Act safeguards.

This could include logging, if done to stimulate new forest growth on which deer might graze. Similarly, bulldozing new dams and reservoirs could be validated as a way to enhance fishing habitats. Poisoning lakes and streams to kill native fish and then planting exotic fish might be allowed under the guise of increasing fishing opportunities. And predator control (including aerial gunning and poisoning) could be defended for boosting the numbers of popular hunted species like elk or bighorn sheep that predators also eat.More at http://www.csmonitor.com/Commentary/Opinion/2012/1130/GOP-backed-bill-
is-most-serious-attack-on-America-s-Wilderness-Act-in-history


If you give a shit, please tell your Congressperson. If you give a shit.

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Sunday, December 2, 2012 9:40 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!



How can man be a visitor to nature ? We ARE of nature.

Fathom the hypocrisy of a government that requires every citizen to prove they are insured... but not everyone must prove they are a citizen

Resident USA Freedom Fundie

" AU, that was great, LOL!! " - Chrisisall

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Sunday, December 2, 2012 9:42 AM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up


Quote:

Originally posted by Niki2:
First, H.R. 4089 elevates hunting, fishing, shooting, and wildlife management above wilderness protection within designated wilderness areas. Visitors or wildlife managers could drive motor vehicles and build roads, cabins, dams, hunting blinds, aircraft landing strips, and much more in wildernesses if any of these activities could be rationalized as facilitating opportunities for hunting, fishing, shooting, or managing fish and wildlife.



From H.R. 4089.

Quote:

(i) No Priority- Nothing in this title requires a Federal agency to give preference to recreational fishing, hunting, or shooting over other uses of Federal public land or over land or water management priorities established by Federal law.


You can read the whole bill at thomas.loc.gov

Sounds like the author of this op-ed is trying to expand "...to facilitate use of and access to Federal public lands..." from the bill into roads, airstrips, lodges, etc. But that's not how it works.

Access means you get to use it. In many wilderness areas that allow hunting, such as the Bob Marshall Wilderness in Montana, hunters packhorse in, live in tents they bring with them, cook on campstoves with no open fires allowed, and take everything they brought in back out, just like a regular camper.

BTW, 5 of the 27 co-sponsors are Democrats.

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Sunday, December 2, 2012 9:51 AM

BYTEMITE


Access would also allow those hateful ATVs into the backcountry. Why is it everyone I see on an ATV while I'm hiking looks like a fat, drunk, stupid asshole and their cross-eyed kids, and they're always revving their engines tearing up figure eights in the middle of the undergrowth of the freaking forest?

Legs: they exist for WALKING. Brains: they exist for THINKING. USE THEM.

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Sunday, December 2, 2012 2:50 PM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up


Quote:

Originally posted by BYTEMITE:
Access would also allow those hateful ATVs into the backcountry.



As noted, there are places you can have access to hunt, and still can't use ATVs.

If you can find anything in H.R. 4089 that allows ATVs to be used for hunting in wilderness areas where they are otherwise prohibited, let me know, because I've read it and I can't.

I'd also note that the wilderness is everyone's wilderness. If folks want to hunt or fish there, and are willing to obey the access rules, I don't see why they shouldn't have access. If managers of wilderness areas have a good reason to prohibit hunting or fishing, prehaps relating to endangered species or heavy tourist traffic, they can still prohibit hunting/fishing.

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Sunday, December 2, 2012 3:03 PM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Hello,

What specific new powers are granted by this bill that did not formerly exist? Is it really just a 'ruin nature at your whimsy' bill?

What was the stated purpose of creating it? What need were they claiming to fill?

--Anthony


Note to Self:
Raptor - woman testifying about birth control is a slut (the term applies.)
Context: http://tinyurl.com/d6ozfej
Six - Wow, isn't Niki quite the CUNT? And, yes, I spell that in all caps....
http://tinyurl.com/bdjgbpe
Wulf - Niki is a stupid fucking bitch who should hurry up and die.
Context: http://tinyurl.com/afve3r9

“The stupid neither forgive nor forget; the naive forgive and forget; the wise forgive but do not forget.” -T. S. Szasz

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Sunday, December 2, 2012 4:56 PM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up


Quote:

Originally posted by AnthonyT:

What was the stated purpose of creating it? What need were they claiming to fill?




From the bill:

Quote:

SEC. 102. FINDINGS.

Congress finds that--
(1) recreational fishing and hunting are important and traditional activities in which millions of Americans participate;
(2) recreational anglers and hunters have been and continue to be among the foremost supporters of sound fish and wildlife management and conservation in the United States;
(3) recreational fishing and hunting are environmentally acceptable and beneficial activities that occur and can be provided on Federal public lands and waters without adverse effects on other uses or users;
(4) recreational anglers, hunters, and sporting organizations provide direct assistance to fish and wildlife managers and enforcement officers of the Federal Government as well as State and local governments by investing volunteer time and effort to fish and wildlife conservation;
(5) recreational anglers, hunters, and the associated industries have generated billions of dollars of critical funding for fish and wildlife conservation, research, and management by providing revenues from purchases of fishing and hunting licenses, permits, and stamps, as well as excise taxes on fishing, hunting, and shooting equipment that have generated billions of dollars of critical funding for fish and wildlife conservation, research, and management;
(6) recreational shooting is also an important and traditional activity in which millions of Americans participate, safe recreational shooting is a valid use of Federal public lands, including the establishment of safe and convenient shooting ranges on such lands, and participation in recreational shooting helps recruit and retain hunters and contributes to wildlife conservation;
(7) opportunities to recreationally fish, hunt, and shoot are declining, which depresses participation in these traditional activities, and depressed participation adversely impacts fish and wildlife conservation and funding for important conservation efforts; and
(8) the public interest would be served, and our citizens' fish and wildlife resources benefitted, by action to ensure that opportunities are facilitated to engage in fishing and hunting on Federal public land as recognized by Executive Order No. 12962, relating to recreational fisheries, and Executive Order No. 13443, relating to facilitation of hunting heritage and wildlife conservation.




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Monday, December 3, 2012 8:29 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Anthony, it opens up areas that were previously prohibited from having roads built or vehicles entering. As Geezer said, it's fine when people want to hike in...or even go by horse...but you open it up to vehicles, and away we go.

What they are "claiming" the bill is for, and what it really is for, are quite different. That's pretty common in legislation, that it's named something innocuous and it's "purpose" sounds fine, but what's really behind the legislation is quite different.

Note that
Quote:

Visitors or wildlife managers could drive motor vehicles and build roads, cabins, dams, hunting blinds, aircraft landing strips, and much more in wildernesses if any of these activities could be rationalized as facilitating opportunities for hunting, fishing, shooting, or managing fish and wildlife.

Previously, none of that was allowed. The Wilderness Act originally defined wilderness as
Quote:

“an area where the earth and its community of life are untrammeled by man, where man himself is a visitor who does not remain." The statute further designates wilderness as an area that retains “its primeval character and influence, without permanent improvements or human habitation” and is “protected and managed so as to preserve its natural conditions.”

Do you see the difference? It's a pretty big one...AIRCRAFT LANDING STRIPS??

Yes, logically it shouldn't make much difference, if it were handled responsibly. But I'm sorry, I've worked in conservation enough years to know what something "pushed by powerful groups like the National Rifle Association and Safari Club International and supported by some of the most anti-wilderness Republicans in Congress" means. I understand the game, every conservationist does.

Lest you think it's just us "hippie environmentalists", please note that HUNTERS are against it as well. This from Ammoland--Shooting Sports News:
Quote:

HR 4089 – Bad For Backcountry Hunting & Fishing

As a big game hunter and former Air Force officer who cares deeply about our country and its wild public lands heritage, I’m constantly amazed by the apparent naivety of some who espouse anti-wilderness rhetoric.

Even though hunting, angling, and wildlife watching are enjoyed by some 87.5 million Americans, sometimes we forget that not everyone realizes the importance of our protected public lands.

Recently, the U.S. House of Representatives passed H.R. 4089, the Sportsmen’s Heritage Act. While hunters and anglers support numerous parts of this bill, there are specific details that could result in enormous negative consequences for world-renowned hunting and fishing destinations, conservation, and public lands fish and wildlife habitat.

Included in the Sportsmen’s Heritage Act is specific language that would undermine the proud heritage American sportsmen have been defending for generations:

First, Section 104(e) (1) in H.R. 4089 would open Wilderness Areas to motorized vehicles, helicopters, road building and any other imaginable tool that is used for hunting or fishing, but is not allowed in Wilderness. This would undermine world class hunting destinations such as the Bob Marshall Wilderness in Montana, the Frank Church Wilderness in Idaho, and the Weminuche Wilderness in Colorado.

Second, Section 104(e) (2) would allow industrial development of Wilderness areas. Activities such as industrial logging and oil and gas drilling are inappropriate for our nation’s Wilderness areas.

Third, we have problems with language under 104(1) (b) and 104(1) (c) that would prohibit adequate NEPA review of management decisions. The way the language is written in this section, it could actually result in less hunting opportunity.

In fact, expanding wilderness protection (the gold standard for wildlife habitat and backcountry hunting/angling grounds) for public lands enhances hunting and fishing and our economy and quality of life. A recent Colorado College State of the Rockies Project poll showed that 96 percent of sportsmen in six western states agreed with the statement that “our national parks, forests, monuments, and wildlife areas are an essential part of Colorado’s quality of life." More at http://www.ammoland.com/2012/04/19/hr-4089-bad-for-backcountry-hunting
-fishing/#ixzz2E0rrQ662
(Emphasis in original)


I think that author explains it better than I could, and that it comes from a hunter's perspective, on a website entitled "Ammoland", speaks to their concerns as well as ours. This is a group which is part of "Backcountry Hunters and Anglers".

There is also the "Wilderness and Roadless Areas Release Act" (H.R. 1581/S. 1087)) in Congress, which they also oppose. Their commentary on this one, written by a board member of BHA, can be found at http://www.ammoland.com/2011/07/28/wilderness-and-roadless-areas-relea
se-act-is-anti-hunting-legislation/#ixzz2E0tpe4Em
Quote:

When big game hunter Theodore Roosevelt became President, one of his first acts was to begin planning a national conservation policy. Roosevelt, in fact, implanted the idea of conservation into our culture and enriched our future prospects with 230 million acres of designated public forests, wildlife refuges, parks, national monuments, and game ranges.

TR would be turning over in his grave today at the prospect of H.R. 1581/S. 1087 (the Wilderness and Roadless Area Release Act of 2011), which if implemented would open more than 60 million acres of these backcountry lands to road construction, motorized recreation, mining, and oil and gas extraction.

As BHA’s (Backcountry Hunters & Anglers) founder (and Army veteran), Mike Beagle, says: “We believe in keeping public lands healthy and accessible. We believe in managing wildlife as a public trust and all native wildlife as a priceless resource. We believe in protecting the big, natural areas and natural functions that support our hunting and fishing heritage.”
BHA member (and World War II Navy veteran) Bill Sustrich hit the nail on the head when he said, “From my own observations, I have seen nothing yet created by mankind that offers the degree of habitat protection that is achieved through wilderness [and roadless] designation.”


We don't always work at cross-purposes with hunters and anglers; more often than not, our interests coincide, because they're no more in favor of seeing wilderness lands destroyed than we are. They ARE the ones who backpack or horse in, most of them pack their trash out just as regular backpackers do, and they treasure what remains of our wilderness.

Back to HR 4089 -- there's more in it that's controversial, too, which I didn't cover initially. It would
Quote:

-- Amend the Marine Mammal Protection Act to permit the importation of polar bear hunting trophies from Canada for bears killed before May 15, 2008 — the date when polar bears were designated as a threatened species under the Endangered Species Act. This would reward 41 hunters for bad behavior: they either killed bears who were off limits or wanted to get their kills in knowing the bears were about to be listed

-- Require the U.S. Forest Service and U.S. Department of the Interior to open nearly all public lands (including National Wildlife Refuges!) to recreational hunting, and directing them to do so without following the environmental review processes required under the National Environmental Policy Act; and

-- Eliminate the Environmental Protection Agency’s authority to protect wildlife, habitat, and people from lead and other toxic substances released by ammunition waste under the Toxic Substances Control Act, thereby undermining the ability of the Agency to fulfill its obligation to protect public health and the environment. More at http://news.forestcouncil.org/2012/05/22/hr-4089-repealing-the-wildern
ess-act-koehler
/


To quote Teddy Roosevelt, who created the Wilderness Protection Act, "“I recognize the rights and duty of this generation to develop and use the natural resources of our land; but I do not recognize a right to waste them or to rob, by wasteful use, the generations that come after us.” That in respone to Rap's silly question.

As to the rest, if none of that informs as to what the real intent of these pieces of legislation are, there's little more I could say to convince anyone.

Tit for tat got us where we are today. If we want to be grownups, we need to resist the ugliness. If we each did, this would be a better reflection on Firefly and a more welcome place. I will try.

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Monday, December 3, 2012 9:12 AM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up


Quote:

Originally posted by Niki2:
First, Section 104(e) (1) in H.R. 4089 would open Wilderness Areas to motorized vehicles, helicopters, road building and any other imaginable tool that is used for hunting or fishing, but is not allowed in Wilderness. This would undermine world class hunting destinations such as the Bob Marshall Wilderness in Montana, the Frank Church Wilderness in Idaho, and the Weminuche Wilderness in Colorado.

Second, Section 104(e) (2) would allow industrial development of Wilderness areas. Activities such as industrial logging and oil and gas drilling are inappropriate for our nation’s Wilderness areas.



Here's the latest Sect1on 104 (e)

Quote:

(e) Necessity in Wilderness Areas and `Within and Supplemental to' Wilderness Purposes-
(1) MINIMUM REQUIREMENTS FOR ADMINISTRATION- The provision of opportunities for hunting, fishing and recreational shooting, and the conservation of fish and wildlife to provide sustainable use recreational opportunities on designated wilderness areas on Federal public lands shall constitute measures necessary to meet the minimum requirements for the administration of the wilderness area.
(2) The term `within and supplemental to' Wilderness purposes in section 4(a) of Public Law 88-577, means that any requirements imposed by that Act shall be implemented only insofar as they do not prevent Federal public land management officials and State fish and wildlife officials from carrying out their wildlife conservation responsibilities or providing recreational opportunities on the Federal public lands subject to a wilderness designation.
(3) Paragraphs (1) and (2) are not intended to authorize or facilitate commodity development, use, or extraction, or motorized recreational access or use.



Note Paragraph (3), underlined. This was not in the original bill, but was in the amended version sent to the Senate.

And reading the bill, (have you read it, Niki?) I can find nothing authorizing roads, lodging, airstrips, commercial activities, etc. Unless you stretch the language in a PN-like manner. It appears you can have access to hunt wilderness land if you can get there the same way folks hiking or camping do. I know that many wilderness areas already have access roads to trailheads for campers, so I'd assume that hunters and anglers would use the same access.

As noted in a post above, this legislation is pretty much in line with Executive Order No. 12962, relating to recreational fisheries, and Executive Order No. 13443, relating to facilitation of hunting heritage and wildlife conservation. So if all that bad stuff was going to happen, it should have done so by now, since those Executive Orders were issued in 2007 and 2008.

I'm getting a lot of "Keep folks out of MY wilderness" from the articles you posted, and I think that's probably the goal of both the author of the first article and the backpack hunter from Ammoland. They don't want anyone else in their sandbox. Except it's everyone's sandbox.

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Monday, December 3, 2012 10:53 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Sorry, I think that's bullshit. What the authors and I want (and millions of others) is that people who want to enjoy what wilderness remains do so without changing that wilderness so that it's no longer wilderness.

I can't go to any wilderness, I'm physically and financially unable to, so your point fails there. I wish it could be preserved for those who CAN, those who are willing to hike in or go by horseback, etc. There is nothing to stop anyone who wants to from doing that. Admittedly horses do some damage to trails, but roads definitely destroy them, and I don't think the people who are pushing this legislation are being up front about it. That a safari company is in favor of it, as well as politicians who are well known to be against protecting wilderness, speaks to me. I also distrust the NRA, but I'll leave them out of it because there are probably as many members like those I quoted who are against it as there are lazy fat slobs who want to drive in and hunt with their automatic rifles who would be for it.

Let's just agree to disagree and leave it at that. I believe you are wrong, and that wording can be parsed in a such a way as to allow things to happen which the legislation doesn't intend and doesn't clearly elucidate. You think the legislation isn't harmful and means what it says. We disagree.

And yes, to answer your question, I have read it. I believe I see potentials you do not and, having seen legislation which seemed innocuous used in very damaging ways many times, I believe in "legalspeak"; in other words, that laws can be written in ways that allow things which are not obvious in the language.

Tit for tat got us where we are today. If we want to be grownups, we need to resist the ugliness. If we each did, this would be a better reflection on Firefly and a more welcome place. I will try.

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Monday, December 3, 2012 4:30 PM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up


Quote:

Originally posted by Niki2:
Sorry, I think that's bullshit. What the authors and I want (and millions of others) is that people who want to enjoy what wilderness remains do so without changing that wilderness so that it's no longer wilderness.



Cite me something from the text of the bill that indicates there will be ANY bad effect on the wilderness. Folks will be able to hunt and fish there if they follow the same rules as folks who want to hike and camp there.

This "Oh no, they're going to build AIRSTRIPS" stuff is like folks finding DEATH PANELS in the ACA. It's a tool by folks who oppose it, for whatever reasons, to fire up those who won't take the time to actually read the legislation.




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Monday, December 3, 2012 5:04 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


“an area where the earth and its community of life are untrammeled by man, where man himself is a visitor who does not remain." ... “its primeval character and influence, without permanent improvements or human habitation” ... “protected and managed so as to preserve its natural conditions.”


Geezer, are you just lazy, or are you stupid, or perhaps are you corrupt?

Given the quotes of what a wilderness is supposed to be, the bill is very evidently in conflict with the concept of wilderness.

In fact, right here, below the title it says:

"To protect and enhance opportunities for recreational hunting, fishing and shooting."

"Federal public land management officials shall exercise their authority ... to FACILITATE USE OF AND ACCESS TO Federal public lands, including Wilderness Areas, Wilderness Study Areas, or lands administratively classified as wilderness eligible or suitable and primitive or semi-primitive areas, for fishing, sport hunting, and recreational shooting ..." sounds like permanent improvements, like (but not limited to) roads. By this language, you could include snowmobile trails, ATV trails, helipads - even small airports. And yes, the dams, blinds, ldges and other items mentioned in the bill are also not excluded.

"No action taken under this title ... shall be considered to be a major Federal action significantly affecting the quality of the human environment, and NO ADDITIONAL IDENTIFICATION, ANALYSIS, OR CONSIDERATION OF ENVIRONMENTAL EFFECTS, including cumulative effects, is necessary or required."

By this language, and environmental impact report is not required for ANY wilderness project undertaken under this bill. That could mean dams, logging, killing fish - anything. As mentioned in the discussion.

"Lands may be subject to closures or restrictions if determined by the head of the agency to be necessary and reasonable and supported by facts and evidence, for purposes including resource conservation, public safety, energy or mineral production, energy generation or transmission infrastructure, water supply facilities, protection of other permittees, protection of private property rights or interests, national security, or compliance with other law."

In other words, federal agencies that want to close land to hunting etc have to 1) prove it's necessary 2) for the protection of "resource conservation, public safety, energy or mineral production, energy generation or transmission infrastructure, water supply facilities, protection of other permittees, protection of private property rights or interests, national security, or compliance with other law". Simply maintaining a designated wilderness as a wilderness is apparently not a good enough reason to prevent those activities. Which makes a wilderness designation rather moot.

"(A) IN GENERAL- The head of each Federal agency shall use his or her authorities in a manner consistent with this Act and other applicable law, to--
(i) lease or permit use of lands under the jurisdiction of the agency for shooting ranges; and
(ii) designate specific lands under the jurisdiction of the agency for recreational shooting activities."

Because nothing says wilderness like a shooting range!



ENJOY YOUR NEXT FOUR YEARS!

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA - HERE'S LAUGHING AT YOU KID!

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Monday, December 3, 2012 5:21 PM

HERO


The most serious attack in history? Your forgetting WW2. The secret Jap plan to burn American forests.

H

Hero...must be right on all of this. ALL of the rest of us are wrong. Chrisisall, 2012

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Monday, December 3, 2012 8:27 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


Cites?



ENJOY YOUR NEXT FOUR YEARS!

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA - HERE'S LAUGHING AT YOU KID!

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Tuesday, December 4, 2012 6:09 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Hello,

The Japanese sent bomb-equipped balloons to bomb the U.S. and most if not all of them landed in unoccupied areas. It wasn't a particularly serious attack, being rather ineffective. So ineffective, in fact, that it was largely covered up and forgotten.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fire_balloon

After considering the Wilderness issue, I am in favor of there being some lands reserved to be utterly absent permanent improvements.

If the new bill can preserve this aspect of the existing definition, I'd be fine with it. No permanent improvements.

--Anthony



Note to Self:
Raptor - woman testifying about birth control is a slut (the term applies.)
Context: http://tinyurl.com/d6ozfej
Six - Wow, isn't Niki quite the CUNT? And, yes, I spell that in all caps....
http://tinyurl.com/bdjgbpe
Wulf - Niki is a stupid fucking bitch who should hurry up and die.
Context: http://tinyurl.com/afve3r9

“The stupid neither forgive nor forget; the naive forgive and forget; the wise forgive but do not forget.” -T. S. Szasz

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Tuesday, December 4, 2012 7:11 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Thank you, Kiki, for doing my work for me. I gave up, recognizing the futility of attempting to debate further. But you made the case excellently and I should have kept going for the information of OTHERS. I owe you one. It's an important issue for me; I shouldn't have let my frustration make me give up.

Anthony, that's difficult if not impossible to accomplish. How do you "unpermanent" a road...even a dirt one? That's just one example, and as Kiki has pointed out, there are lots of loopholes that COULD allows permanent things. One has to decide whether one trusts people to abide by the apparent intent of the wording, or if there are those who know how it's written--or wrote it--to allow things not stated clearly in the legislation.

Tit for tat got us where we are today. If we want to be grownups, we need to resist the ugliness. If we each did, this would be a better reflection on Firefly and a more welcome place. I will try.

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Tuesday, December 4, 2012 4:20 PM

RIONAEIRE

Beir bua agus beannacht


I'm for keeping the rules the way they are now, we don't need to change it, so I'm opposed to the bill.

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya

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Tuesday, December 4, 2012 4:31 PM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Quote:

Anthony, that's difficult if not impossible to accomplish.


Hello,

If the aims of the new bill are inconsistent with this basic protection, then it is clear what the truest aims of the bill are: To destroy the wilderness as currently defined, and reform it into some man-managed entertainment center.

--Anthony


Note to Self:
Raptor - woman testifying about birth control is a slut (the term applies.)
Context: http://tinyurl.com/d6ozfej
Six - Wow, isn't Niki quite the CUNT? And, yes, I spell that in all caps....
http://tinyurl.com/bdjgbpe
Wulf - Niki is a stupid fucking bitch who should hurry up and die.
Context: http://tinyurl.com/afve3r9

“The stupid neither forgive nor forget; the naive forgive and forget; the wise forgive but do not forget.” -T. S. Szasz

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Wednesday, December 5, 2012 7:32 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


That's exactly the point, Anthony. They want to open up the wildnerness; while we already have many, MANY "man-managed entertainment centers" in our proteced lands, they want to make money off them ALL. As shown, obviously even the hunters and fishermen they are using to rationalize it recognize this.

Tit for tat got us where we are today. If we want to be grownups, we need to resist the ugliness. If we each did, this would be a better reflection on Firefly and a more welcome place. I will try.

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Friday, December 7, 2012 4:19 PM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up


Quote:

Originally posted by 1kiki:
Geezer, are you just lazy, or are you stupid, or perhaps are you corrupt?



Done here.

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