In time for Thansgiving - low temp (slow) roasting

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In time for Thansgiving - low temp (slow) roasting - safe, or not?

POSTED BY: 1KIKI
UPDATED: Sunday, November 11, 2012 20:46
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Friday, November 9, 2012 6:05 AM

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=HACCP+AND+SLOW-ROASTING
+TURKEYS&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&ved=0CC0QFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.hi-tm.com%2FDocuments%2FTurkey.pdf&ei=ECedUMy-EKiDjAK9wICYDA&usg=AFQjCNHx8xFQmNZ0_Z1NoyndzavnHhGeAQ

Just a comment about the bacteria used in the first study referenced. They each represent unique paths to foodborne illness.

Clostridium perfringens causes gas gangrene in wounds, and forms a very durable spore so it can wait out adverse conditions - like cooking - until it has the right environment to revert to a growing form - what they call a vegetative form. The trick with this one is to not let the spores sprout after cooking (don't let your turkey sit out). It also represents another Clostridium, in this case botulinum (botulism).

Staphylococcus aureus causes food poisoning in a unique way - the toxin is located in the cell wall of the bacteria itself. You can cook the bacteria and kill them, but the cell wall remains toxic and causes intense illness. The trick to this bacteria is to not let them grow before cooking.

Salmonella typhimurium causes food poisoning in a more normal - and interesting - way. A small number of bacteria colonize the gut, where they grow in an innocuous form into much larger numbers. In a poorly understood process called quorum sensing they sense when there are enough numbers to cause disease, then suddenly turn on their toxin genes. Salmonella can also invade the bloodstream, causing disseminated infection.

In terms of causing illness, it does the salmonella no good to be constantly producing toxin, because the initial small numbers of bacteria will create an ineffective amount of toxin but allow the body to develop antibodies over time.

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HACCP AND SLOW-ROASTING TURKEYS

by O. Peter Snyder, Jr., Ph.D
Hospitality Institute of Technology and Management
November 2008 edition
Introduction
Slow roasting turkey overnight seems to be a very common practice dating from the 1930s. There has been a persistent question, however, about the microbiological safety of slow-roast poultry, especially in terms of the production of Staphylococcus aureus toxin. In 1988, a well-done study was run at the University of Minnesota, Department of Food Science, by Eckner, Zottola, and Gravani, which provided the answer to the question of safety.
The study
Four frozen turkeys were used in the study. The turkeys were thawed in a refrigerator. The weight of the turkeys ranged from 11.7 to 25.5 pounds. Hence, they would take different times to cook. The carcasses were thoroughly washed, dried with a paper towel, and were stuffed with stuffing prepared using a standard recipe formulation. Cultures of Staphylococcus aureus, Salmonella typhimurium, and Clostridium perfringens were added to the stuffing of two turkeys.
The population of each organism ranged from 100,000 per gram to 10,000,000 per gram of stuffing. The stuffed turkeys were placed in a preheated, 350°F oven and baked for 1 hour. A cooking curve for a 29-lb. turkey is shown at Figure 1 (Eckner, et al., 1988).
(unable to duplicate figure)
The temperature of the oven was then reduced to 225°F, and the turkeys were roasted an additional 12 hours. If the juice of the turkeys was pink. The turkeys were roasted an additional 1 to 2 hours at 300°F, or 1 hour at 350°F. A critical fact was that the final temperature of the stuffing was 165°F. The longest time between start of cook and getting to above the safe temperature of 130°F for the slowest cooking / largest turkey was about 8 hours.
As expected, no salmonellae or staphylococci was recovered. They were killed above 130°F as the turkey was cooking. Actually, if the stuffing had been sampled at 140 to 150°F, they would have found that these organisms would be dead, considering that 140°F for 12.7 minutes gives a 7D reduction of Salmonella in beef.

At the end of cooking, the stuffing and turkey were still positive for C. perfringens, as expected. Temperatures above 130°F are lethal for salmonellae and staphylococci, as these are vegetative pathogens. However, the spores of C. perfringens survive 165°F. Some of the C. perfringens spores may germinate to vegetative cells during a slow cook, but vegetative C. perfringens is very easy to inactivate. Therefore, when the turkey reaches 140°F, the vegetative C. perfringens, if produced, is destroyed. Once cooked, the turkeys cooked in this manner would be safe as long as they are above 130°F. Of course, uneaten portions of the stuffing (and turkey) must be handled properly to prevent C. perfringens "toxinfection" from the outgrowth of the spores during inadequate hot holding below 130°F or cooling too slowly to refrigeration temperatures.

How long does one have in cooking to get above the safe temperature of 130°F? Willardsen et al. (1978) reported on the multiplication of the C. perfringens vegetative cells in precooked hamburger during slow come-up in cooking. If the time to go from 50 to 130°F was about 7.6 hours, the vegetative cells might multiply 10,000 to 1. If the time was 5.8 hours, the multiplication would be about 1,000 to 1. If the time was 3.5 hours, the multiplication would be about 10 to 1. So, slow cooking might permit C. perfringens vegetative cell multiplication. By
the time the hamburger reached 140°F, all of the C. perfringens vegetative cells that had multiplied will be destroyed. They used C. perfringens strains that multiplied about one every 7.5 minutes at 113°F. Common illness strains multiply more like once every 15 minutes at 113°F. Hence, this experiment was looking for extremes of safety. The times would probably be twice that reported for more "normal" C. perfringens.

From a HACCP perspective, what would be our concern? It would be toxin production from S. aureus growth during cooking. However, in raw turkey / food, S. aureus does not multiply, because there are competitive spoilage microorganisms. Therefore, with raw turkey, it would not multiply during cooking. Even if it did, as on cooked turkey with 100 S. aureus per gram, which was slowly reheated, the fastest I have found S. aureus to multiply is about once every 20 minutes in milk--3 times slower than the C. perfringens experiment by Willardsen et al.
Staphylococcus aureus would have to multiply at least 1,000 to 1, or 10 generations, to make enough toxin to make anyone ill. The danger time to go from 50 to 130°F in cooked food starting with 100 S. aureus per gram would be expected to be approximately 3 times that of C. perfringens, or 15 hours. Note, this shows that the FDA-required food reheating to 165°F and holding for 15 seconds in less than 2 hours has absolutely no scientific validity. There is a small
reason to set a minimum time for raw food cook come-up, but no justification for reheating as a safety control.

It is true that there is a phenomenon whereby Salmonella can double or triple in resistance to inactivation if it spends some time at about 110F, which it will during slow cooking. However, it makes no difference; 12.7 minutes at 140°F gives a 10,000,000-to-1 kill (7D reduction). Assume that the time becomes 45 minutes. During slow cooking, the food still spends plenty of time at lethal temperatures above 130°F to kill all vegetative pathogens.
As a final point, remember, the code says that raw, potentially hazardous food must be held at 41F. There is no science for any temperature by itself. There must be time factored in, because Listeria monocytogenes, Yersinia enterocolitica , and Aeromonas hydrophila all begin to grow at 29.3°F. If we choose 7 days at 41°F as a control, which actually allows for about 10 multiplications of L. monocytogenes in 7 days, or if 45°F, 4 days, or if 50°F, 2.4 days, and if 110°F, 4.5 hours, all of these times and temperatures allow for the same amount of growth (Snyder, 1998). When we use HACCP in retail food operations, no one needs to measure the refrigerators again in terms of raw food hazard control. The vegetative pathogens will be killed in cooking.
There is getting to be an extensive body of science indicating that below about 55 to 60°F, food "spoils safe." The FDA has provided no justification for imposing a raw food 41°F cold-holding temperature. Epidemiological experience of the last 100 years suggests that food held at 55 to 60°F has limited pathogen growth and spoils safe. There are many quality reasons for keeping raw food at 28 to 32°F. However, this is shelf life and quality, and not safety.
References:
Eckner, K.F., Zottola, E.A., and Gravani, R.A. 1988. The microbiology of slow-roasted, stuffed turkeys. Dairy
Food Sanit. 8(7):344-347.
FDA Food Code. 1999. U.S. Public Health Service, U.S. Dept. of Health and Human Services. Pub No. PB99-
115925. Washington, DC.
Snyder, O.P. 1998. Updated guidelines for use of time and temperature specifications for holding and storing food
in retail food operations. Dairy Food Environ. Sanit. 18(9):574-579.
Willardsen, R.R., Busta, F.F., Allen, C.E., and Smith, L.B. 1978. Growth and survival of Clostridium perfringens
during constantly rising temperatures. J. Food Sci. 43:470-475.

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Friday, November 9, 2012 6:12 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Quote:
In 1988, a well-done study

Hello,

Ten points for the author's sense of humor.

--Anthony

Note to Self:
Raptor - woman testifying about birth control is a slut (the term applies.)
Six - Wow, isn't Niki quite the CUNT? And, yes, I spell that in all caps....
Wulf - Niki is a stupid fucking bitch who should hurry up and die.

“The stupid neither forgive nor forget; the naive forgive and forget; the wise forgive but do not forget.” -Thomas Szasz

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Friday, November 9, 2012 6:42 AM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up

Seems most of the low/slow cooking methods are used to get the stuffing cooked enough to be safe to eat. Trying to cook stuffing in turkey results in overdone dry turkey and not very appetizing stuffing, IMO. Better to cook the stuffing seperate so it gets nice crunchy bits. Also, brine the turkey for several hours (or overnight) in a salt/sugar solution in the fridge and it'll be much jucier even if you cook it to higher internal temps. I would suppose that the salt also helps with bacteria reduction.

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Friday, November 9, 2012 6:52 AM

WISHIMAY

Brine-ing is YUMMY. Mrs Dash helps with that, too.

Also, if you ever have any doubts about bacteria- NUKE it. There was an article a while back about how nukeing it heats it up from the inside and tends to kill much bacteria inside and out because of the rapid excitation of the particles. I never use a meat thermometer and we're not dead yet. I just wait until I get ready to serve and pop just about everything in the micrwave a minute. Ironically, my uncle REFUSES to eat ANYTHING that has been microwaved, but he also has had prostate cancer (but he did survive it).

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Friday, November 9, 2012 7:21 AM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.

Well, to reply -

One thing professional chefs and microbiologists agree one should never, ever do is cook turkey with the stuffing inside. Aside from the time it takes to heat up, gving those S aureus lots of time to grow, there is a good chance the interior of the stuffing will not reach high enough temperatures long enough even when the meat is well-cooked.

Bacteria which colonize or infect the gut are generally tolerant to salt. After all they have to endure stomach acid, digestive enzymes, and bile which is dissolved salts of the body's own digestive detergent.

Brining in salt, sugar or both infuses the meat with the salt/ sugar. Water from the solution is drawn in along with the salt/sugar. This extra water is significantly retained during cooking where it dissolves the gelatin formed from collagen after the meat has cooked enough to break down the collagen, which in turn then serves to retain the water even better. According to America's Test Kitchen, the ACS, and several places, that's why brining results in such tender and juicy meat.

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Friday, November 9, 2012 8:06 AM

CAVETROLL

NO to stuffing in the bird.

YES to stuffing on the plate.

I've followed Alton Brown's recipe for turkey and have never been disappointed. Brined, no stuffing, aromatics in the cavity, start at 500 degrees for 30 minutes, cover the breast with aluminum foil, probe thermometer in the deepest part of the breast and cook at 350 degrees until the thermometer reads 155 degrees. Rest for 15-20 minutes and carve. The juices running out of the breast as the slices come off look like the work of a food stylist and a special effects man. And holy moly, is it delicious!

Kwindbago, hot air and angry electrons

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Sunday, November 11, 2012 8:02 PM

RIONAEIRE

Beir bua agus beannacht

We've always had the stuffing cooked outside the turkey, and then you put it together on your plate.

I've been eating raw cookie dough with eggs in it since I was 4 or so, never got sick from it once, in middle school a close friend's mother wouldn't let us eat the raw dough, I was baffled, I started thinking my parents were pretty cool, I liked living dangerously. :)

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya

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Sunday, November 11, 2012 8:46 PM

WISHIMAY

There was a girl last year who died a slow horrible death from organ failure from bacteria from eating raw cookie dough. Not to mention the egg contaminations and recalls from last year....It DOES happen and CAN happen to you. If eating raw cookie dough is worth dying over, go for it

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