REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

random thought

POSTED BY: 1KIKI
UPDATED: Thursday, November 15, 2012 18:45
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Wednesday, November 7, 2012 7:56 PM

MAGONSDAUGHTER


I don't think it was just the unicorn that make people think it is fairytales.

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Wednesday, November 7, 2012 8:03 PM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Hello,

I love Job for its example of baffling cruelty and its description of animals that are hard to identify. The 'Unicorn' is not the animal that fascinates me, however.

--Anthony

*****************************
Quote:


In volume one of his two-volume set, Asimov’s Guide to the Bible, the late infidel, Isaac Asimov (who was serving as the president of the American Humanist Association when he died in 1992), dealt with the topic of the unicorn as it is found in the King James Version when he wrote:

The Hebrew word represented in the King James Version by “unicorn” is re’em, which undoubtedly refers to the wild ox (urus or aurochs) ancestral to the domesticated cattle of today. The re’em still flourished in early historical times and a few existed into modern times, although it is now extinct. It was a dangerous creature of great strength and was similar in form and temperament to the Asian buffaloes.

The Revised Standard Version translates re’em as “wild ox.” The verse in Numbers is translated as “they have as it were the horns of the wild ox,” while the one in Job is translated “Is the wild ox willing to serve you?” The Anchor Bible translates the verse in Job as “Will the buffalo deign to serve you?”

The wild ox was a favorite prey of the hunt-loving Assyrian monarchs (the animal was called rumu in Assyrian, essentially the same word as re’em) and was displayed in their large bas-reliefs. Here the wild ox was invariably shown in profile and only one horn was visible. One can well imagine that the animal represented in this fashion would come to be called “one-horn” as a familiar nickname, much as we might refer to “longhorns” in speaking of a certain breed of cattle.

As the animal itself grew less common under the pressure of increasing human population and the depredations of the hunt, it might come to be forgotten that there was a second horn hidden behind the first in the sculptures and “one-horn” might come to be considered a literal description of the animal.

When the first Greek translation of the Bible was prepared about 250 B.C., the animal was already rare in the long-settled areas of the Near East and the Greeks, who had no direct experience with it, had no word for it. They used a translation of “one-horn” instead and it became monokeros. In Latin and in English it became the Latin word for “one-horn”; that is, “unicorn."

The Biblical writers could scarcely have had the intention of implying that the wild ox literally had one horn. There is one Biblical quotation, in fact, that clearly contradicts that notion. In the Book of Deuteronomy [33:17—BT], when Moses is giving his final blessing to each tribe, he speaks of the tribe of Joseph (Ephraim and Manasseh) as follows: “His glory is like the firstling of his bullock, and his horns are like the horns of unicorns....”

Here the word is placed in the plural since the thought of a “one-horn’s” single horn seems to make the phrase “horns of a unicorn” self-contradictory. Still, the original Hebrew has the word in the singular so that we must speak of the “horns of a unicorn,” which makes it clear that a unicorn has more than one horn (1968, pp. 186-187).








Note to Self:
Raptor - woman testifying about birth control is a slut (the term applies.)
Six - Wow, isn't Niki quite the CUNT? And, yes, I spell that in all caps....
Wulf - Niki is a stupid fucking bitch who should hurry up and die.

“The stupid neither forgive nor forget; the naive forgive and forget; the wise forgive but do not forget.” -Thomas Szasz



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Thursday, November 8, 2012 5:14 AM

BYTEMITE


EDIT: Oops, ninja'd.

Good work Anthony. Yes, a number of things in the bible are translation conventions, and depends on the concerns and ideas of the people translating at the time.

It should also be noted, however, that while the Greeks may have had some familiarity with the Assyrian Auroch drawings, the earliest Greek transcripts describe an animal like the rhinoceros as the unicorn, complete with it having "elephant feet."

There was also an animal called the Tahash mentioned at times, which appears to have referred to dolphins, and which is sometimes used to refer to the narwhal.

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Thursday, November 8, 2012 7:59 AM

OONJERAH



See previous post:
ETA: Was that Rhinoceros unicornis? Great strength, indeed!

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Thursday, November 8, 2012 8:53 AM

BYTEMITE


Clarification: The judaic people writing the texts in hebrew used the word the re'em, an extinct wild ox now called the auroch. The Greek translators used the term monoceros, which could be a number of things.

But the rhinoceros is clearly identified by some Greek writers as the unicorn.

Quote:

Unicorns are not found in Greek mythology, but rather in accounts of natural history, for Greek writers of natural history were convinced of the reality of the unicorn, which they located in India, a distant and fabulous realm for them. [...]

Pliny the Elder mentions the oryx and an Indian ox as one-horned beasts, as well as "a very fierce animal called the monoceros which has the head of the stag, the feet of the elephant, and the tail of the boar, while the rest of the body is like that of the horse; it makes a deep lowing noise, and has a single black horn, which projects from the middle of its forehead, two cubits in length."


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Thursday, November 8, 2012 9:05 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Hello,

And all of this goes to show that there is no singular protected word of God, inspired or otherwise. People have been mucking it up unintentionally since forever. And those were people with the BEST intentions.

Imagine people with the worst intentions, and what they have done to the text.

--Anthony



Note to Self:
Raptor - woman testifying about birth control is a slut (the term applies.)
Six - Wow, isn't Niki quite the CUNT? And, yes, I spell that in all caps....
Wulf - Niki is a stupid fucking bitch who should hurry up and die.

“The stupid neither forgive nor forget; the naive forgive and forget; the wise forgive but do not forget.” -Thomas Szasz



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Thursday, November 8, 2012 1:45 PM

RIONAEIRE

Beir bua agus beannacht


Anthony a chara, I like your "unicorn" piece, makes sense. I just like extinct animals in general, I suppose there could have been a "real" unicorn at one point, but your explanation makes sense too and is the one I've always been familiar with in my experiences thereof. Either way is cool. Isn't nature exciting?

Oonj, good points, I do think the NT is more important than the OT. But the OT was what I liked more growing up, because it has more concrete stories in it, with beginnings, middles and ends. When I was little my favorites were in genesis, Noah, Abraham, etc. And of course Moses, David, Esther et al, And Daniel etc.You guys can call me a fundy or whatever, I don't much care. But since you clearly fudge the meaning of the term it obviously doesn't mean much. In one breath you say its a Christian who believes in the Bible. In another breath you say its a conservative who parrots talking points who is an Atheist but is difficult to reason with. How is anyone supposed to take the use of the word seriously when you constantly change its meaning, I mean really, get your selves in order guys. No one can take you seriously when you call them a name when you can't even decide what it means. Come on.

Not to mention that real life people I ask have never heard of this word. I think y'all made it up and planted sites with references to it in various places on the Internet, at the rate you're going you should write some plays, I hear that famous playwrites can make up all the words they please and its totally legit.

Either way you guys know I put the fun in fundy :)

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya

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Thursday, November 8, 2012 2:14 PM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Hello Riona,

My favorite animal in Job is the Leviathan, because its description conforms to no known creature.

ETA Description of Leviathan:

Quote:


1 Can you pull in the leviathan with a fishhook or tie down his tongue with a rope?
2 Can you put a cord through his nose or pierce his jaw with a hook?
3 Will he keep begging you for mercy? Will he speak to you with gentle words?
4 Will he make an agreement with you for you to take him as your slave for life?
5 Can you make a pet of him like a bird or put him on a leash for your girls?
6 Will traders barter for him? Will they divide him up among the merchants?
7 Can you fill his hide with harpoons or his head with fishing spears?
8 If you lay a hand on him, you will remember the struggle and never do it again!
9 Any hope of subduing him is false; the mere sight of him is overpowering.
10 No-one is fierce enough to rouse him. Who then is able to stand against me?
11 Who has a claim against me that I must pay? Everything under heaven belongs to me.
12 I will not fail to speak of his limbs, his strength and his graceful form.
13 Who can strip off his outer coat? Who would approach him with a bridle?
14 Who dares open the doors of his mouth, ringed about with his fearsome teeth?
15 His back has rows of shields tightly sealed together;
16 each is so close to the next that no air can pass between.
17 They are joined fast to one another; they cling together and cannot be parted.
18 His snorting throws out flashes of light; his eyes are like the rays of dawn.
19 Firebrands stream from his mouth; sparks of fire shoot out.
20 Smoke pours from his nostrils as from a boiling pot over a fire of reeds.
21 His breath sets coals ablaze, and flames dart from his mouth.
22 Strength resides in his neck; dismay goes before him.
23 The folds of his flesh are tightly joined; they are firm and immovable.
24 His chest is hard as rock, hard as a lower millstone.
25 When he rises up, the mighty are terrified; they retreat before his thrashing.
26 The sword that reaches him has no effect, nor does the spear or the dart or the javelin.
27 Iron he treats like straw and bronze like rotten wood.
28 Arrows do not make him flee, sling stones are like chaff to him.
29 A club seems to him but a piece of straw, he laughs at the rattling of the lance.
30 His undersides are jagged potsherds, leaving a trail in the mud like a threshing-sledge.
31 He makes the depths churn like a boiling cauldron and stirs up the sea like a pot of ointment.
32 Behind him he leaves a glistening wake; one would think the deep had white hair.
33 Nothing on earth is his equal— a creature without fear.
34 He looks down on all that are haughty; he is king over all that are proud.



--Anthony



Note to Self:
Raptor - woman testifying about birth control is a slut (the term applies.)
Six - Wow, isn't Niki quite the CUNT? And, yes, I spell that in all caps....
Wulf - Niki is a stupid fucking bitch who should hurry up and die.

“The stupid neither forgive nor forget; the naive forgive and forget; the wise forgive but do not forget.” -Thomas Szasz



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Thursday, November 8, 2012 3:02 PM

OONJERAH


Riona: "You guys can call me a fundy or whatever, I don't much care.
But since you clearly fudge the meaning of the term it obviously
doesn't mean much. In one breath you say its a Christian who believes
in the Bible. In another breath you say its a conservative who parrots
talking points who is an Atheist but is difficult to reason with."

"You guys," can't refer to me. ... I have never used the word "fundy."

In my New Testament vs Old Testament post, I said, "all the devout Chris-
tians who quote from the Old Testament". I particularly wanted to make
that point, because, as far as I know, no one else ever does.

It is a sore point with me whenever I meet someone who identifies as a
Christian but usually speaks of others condemningly, without compassion.

The Old Testament has a lot of great stories. It is Not, IMO, the word
of Christ.


=========================

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Sunday, November 11, 2012 7:58 PM

RIONAEIRE

Beir bua agus beannacht


Anthony, Leviathans and bahemoths are my favorites too, dinosaur dragon fun!

Oonjerah, "oh no you di'int", I don't think anyone has ever told me I'm compassionless before, that's new. Oh well, you're entitled to your opinion. And I occasionally reference the OT but I don't generally quote it verbatum. We don't have to be friends if you don't want to, that's okay, but if you ever change your mind that's okay too, I'm flexible.

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya

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Sunday, November 11, 2012 10:05 PM

OONJERAH



Quote Riona, "Oonjerah, "oh no you di'int", I don't think
anyone has ever told me I'm compassionless before, that's
new. Oh well, you're entitled to your opinion."


Are you trying to tell me something I said? ... said it
about you?

By any chance is this the something?: "It is a sore point
with me whenever I meet someone who identifies as a
Christian but usually speaks of others condemningly,
without compassion."

If so, Why oh why would you take that on?

After many years and long roads traveled, I still feel much
passion about religion; mostly, I dislike organized religion.
I speak of it in generalities and present points of reason.
I don't point the finger at someone who disagrees with me,
nor do I call names.

... Hmmm. If they get in my face, I can get around to that.


=========================

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Monday, November 12, 2012 9:39 AM

RIONAEIRE

Beir bua agus beannacht


I'm sorry Oonj. I was just having a paranoid feeling yesterday evening. I don't tend towards paranoia so that's not like me. I'm sorry I said that to you. I just feel so bad for how I wrote what I meant wrong in the other thread and wishing I could make it up to you guys that I wasn't thinking clearly. Plus I've always wanted to write "Oh no you di'int", :)

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya

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Tuesday, November 13, 2012 9:49 AM

OONJERAH



Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, Deuteronomy.
So those are the 5 books of the Old Testaments that
are or were once the same as the Torah.

After that, Joshua thru Malachi, is about 34 more books.
What are those? Where'd they come from? Who wrote 'em?

"Tanakh is the Jewish name for the Hebrew Scriptures,
what Christians call the Old Testament.

"Tanakh is broken down into three main categories:

"Torah: The five books of Moses; this is identical to the
“Old Testament” order ... "

Prophets: This section is divided into the “Former Prophets”
— referring to Joshua, Judges, 1-2 Samuel and 1-2 Kings,
based on the belief that these books were all written by
prophets — and the “Latter Prophets”—referring to Isaiah,
Jeremiah, Ezekiel and Hosea-Malachi, called “The Twelve.”

Writings: This includes all the remaining books, generally
in the following order: Psalms, Job, Proverbs, Ruth, Song of
Solomon, Ecclesiastes, Lamentations, Esther, Daniel, Ezra,
Nehemiah and 1-2 Chronicles."

=======

So ... our Old Testament was originally the same the Jewish
holy scriptures called the Tanakh.

If one follows the Old Testament, but not the New Testament,
does that make him a Jew who's hedging his bets by claiming
Jesus as his savior? Probably not, 'cause our Old Testament
is no longer so much like the Tanakh. In fact, I have heard
of Christian students consulting Rabbis to find out what it's
really supposed to say. Pretty different, yeah.

(My Bible is The New International Version, 1984, given to
me by a pastor friend. He is both very intelligent and well
educated. Nevertheless, he could stand there and say without
cracking a smile that this country was founded on Christian
principles and was intended to be a Christian country by our
founding fathers.
But NM that.)

Mark, Matthew, Luke and John are the New Testament. But this
Bible also gives me Acts thru Jude, 22 more books.

I wonder what's in there. Shall I read it?


=========================

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Tuesday, November 13, 2012 2:06 PM

RIONAEIRE

Beir bua agus beannacht


A lot of what's in the rest of the new testament is letters from Paul to various new churches around the area. He gives them lots of advice about various things that they might want to know about, situations they might get into etc. He also gives shoutouts to his friends in various locations, people he made friends with while visiting there etc. There's also several letters written by others of prominance at the time, also to various churches, back then snail mail was as good as it got, now adays Paul would just make a website and everyone would just log in to see what he has to say, follow his tweets etc. But back then you wrote a letter and sent it to someone and the idea was that they'd pass it along after they read it so other churches could check it out too.

I know what you mean about the misconception about the beliefs of the founding fathers, most of them were deists rather than Christians. I don't know why people don't know that when even _I am aware of it and I'm not a super scholar by any means. I am however very into history so that may explain why the average person doesn't know it and I do. You like history too?

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya

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Wednesday, November 14, 2012 9:28 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Just responding to the last post because I haven't gotten into this thread and only wanted to answer the original question. My parents weren't religious per se--they went to church, sent me to Sunday school, but rarely if ever talked about religion or god or whatever.

So I never really thought about it until I was in my mid-teens. I joined the Mormon church, read my Book of Mormon--twice even--in hopes of finding some kind of revelation. Never did. Admittedly, half the reason I joined was a combination of the fact that my best friend was Mormon and her family was really great (which compared to my own family was really cool), and the fact that, to be "dunked", I had to be what I would now call "indoctrinated". This involved to Mormons coming to my home twice a week to "instruct" me...the two Mormons in question were young, good looking guys, one from England and one from Australia (in other words, GREAT accents!). So in reality, at least subconsciously I wasn't really "converted" and only followed the religion by going to church a couple of times. The reading of the Book of Mormon WAS an honest attempt at hoping there was a "God" out there somewhere I could believe in, but that was probably the only honest part of it.

Anyway, I got no revelations, once dunked the handsome "brothers" disappeared, then I found out about their racism and dumped the church FAST! The hypocrisy angered me greatly and probably contributed to my rejecting organized religion.

So I had no "epiphany", just gradually over time rejected the idea of a god because it didn't make any sense. Given how unreligious my parents were, it's probably not surprising that I didn't wake up one day or have an experience which made me question the existence of a god or what I'd been told.

If I ever thought about it logically, and I did a few times, the perfection of nature and science just seemed too wonderful for me to imagine some ephemeral being up there watching over us and tweaking things. Nature is just too damned logical--I might concede to something which started it all, but chemistry and science and all that just works too well for me to imagine "someone" sitting up there in judgment with his fingers in the pie.

Started to read this thread and only made it through the first page, tho' I found the discussions interesting. We've kind of had it before, tho. I was, however, struck by Six's very first post, which read "This is actually a good topic Nikki, although I don't agree with you :)". Uhhh, it was Kiki who started the thread, which made me smile and think maybe his obsession with me isn't completely gone. Poor Six, what few of his posts I've read recently show a very, very fucked up person, and an incredibly sad one. I hope he gets help someday, tho' I seriously doubt it will ever happen.

Tit for tat got us where we are today. If we want to be grownups, we need to resist the ugliness. If we each did, this would be a better reflection on Firefly and a more welcome place. I will try.

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Wednesday, November 14, 2012 1:42 PM

OONJERAH



God = The Lord, Yahweh, also El Roi & Adonai. Biblical God.
A reeeally old MAN in long white robes with long white hair
and beard. He's sitting on a throne in the clouds in Heaven.

In Biblical times, He performed a lot of easily seen and very
impressive miracles, such as parting the Red Sea. He doesn't
do that stuff lately. Maybe He's saving it for a really great
finale later.
It's been said He loves us, but will send us to Hell. Hot!

Some Bible thumpers even believe that We-Mankind are His
primary and greatest creation; life exists only on Earth.
I/We am the Center of God's universe.
__________________

Dumb silly me. I gotta stop using the word "God," b/c when I
do, most folks automatically picture the Biblical God.

My friend Bob, who was raised as a Jew, & I used to call God, the
real God, the One that made sense to us, we called Him/Her/It the
Universe or the U. We believed there is intelligence in/of the U
far greater than any human. Some of the Intelligent were, like us,
creatures/created by the ultimate intelligence, the Universe. The
intelligence of the Universe was not considered to be human-like
or egotistical. Nor understandable or describeable.

I assume (foolishly?) there are Creatures more than twice as smart
as Homo Sap, and they are in awe of the infinite intelligence of the
Creator. Who very likely used (quote Kiki) "a dance of energies.
Where they reach a harmonic node, you get an electron - or a proton -
or gravity" to create one of Its Universes, this one.

So if I want to refer to The Real Creator, & have anyone know that
I don't mean The Lord Yahweh, what shall I call Him/Her/It? "The Big
Bang" just doesn't appeal to me.

See. I am with Seth on this. The All That There Is is way beyond us.
We have limits. It doesn't.

=========================

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Wednesday, November 14, 2012 2:06 PM

BYTEMITE


That depends on whether there is a big crunch or heat death. In the very least, it appears the universe does have limits, not space, but material. Eventually all the stars will go out because all the hydrogen will have been fused into helium.

Due to entropy of the system it is unlikely that anything lives forever. Therefore, all creatures are born to inhabit a very temporary moment in time, before it is gone forever. Some might last longer than humans, but will all eventually fade. And the Universe is not eternal, because even the stars will fade.

It is difficult for me to believe that there is an overarching intelligence that would subject us to this cold indifference - although honestly because of the cold indifference, it doesn't matter if it exists or not. However, I can believe there are other intelligences out there like us. Just none that we have observed.

/depressing

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Wednesday, November 14, 2012 2:12 PM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Quote:

And the Universe is not eternal, because even the stars will fade.


Hello,

In a way, yes, stars go out. But I'm not sure that we know this in big picture terms. Does a Universe 'go out?'

On the one hand, all of the energy in the Universe is out there and (as far as I know) can't stop existing.

On the other hand, I don't think we know why the Universe happened. So there's no way to know if it won't happen again. If it keeps happening, then it can't be said to die, really.

--Anthony



Note to Self:
Raptor - woman testifying about birth control is a slut (the term applies.)
Context: http://tinyurl.com/d6ozfej
Six - Wow, isn't Niki quite the CUNT? And, yes, I spell that in all caps....
http://tinyurl.com/bdjgbpe
Wulf - Niki is a stupid fucking bitch who should hurry up and die.
Context: http://tinyurl.com/afve3r9

“The stupid neither forgive nor forget; the naive forgive and forget; the wise forgive but do not forget.” -T. S. Szasz

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Wednesday, November 14, 2012 2:25 PM

BYTEMITE


Hmm. After further reading it appears that the universe will run out of useable energy to fuse hydrogen to helium before hydrogen no longer becomes available for stars. However, that still means there is unlikely to be stars at that time. Eventually there will be no more stars.

A long time after that, matter itself will basically decay into photons and leptons.

Anthony you are correct in that energy does not go away. However it can be converted and distributed. As the universe becomes more chaotic (entropy) there is less available energy left to continue to do work.

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Wednesday, November 14, 2012 2:34 PM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Hello,

So even if no new Universes happen, our destiny is to turn into energy and merge with the universe, and from then on exist into eternity?

--Anthony


Note to Self:
Raptor - woman testifying about birth control is a slut (the term applies.)
Context: http://tinyurl.com/d6ozfej
Six - Wow, isn't Niki quite the CUNT? And, yes, I spell that in all caps....
http://tinyurl.com/bdjgbpe
Wulf - Niki is a stupid fucking bitch who should hurry up and die.
Context: http://tinyurl.com/afve3r9

“The stupid neither forgive nor forget; the naive forgive and forget; the wise forgive but do not forget.” -T. S. Szasz

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Wednesday, November 14, 2012 2:37 PM

OONJERAH



The Real Creator, The All That There Is, whatever you
will call IT very likely, IMO, did something like Kiki
described to ... Quote Oonj: "to create ONE of Its
Universes, this one."

IT gots more universes, some don't resemble this one much.

To start to understand IT, which we can't, we gotta stop
trying to define or Limit IT.

No limits. If this galaxy ceases to be, that's not The End.


=========================

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Wednesday, November 14, 2012 2:39 PM

BYTEMITE


EDIT: Too much bleakness.

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Wednesday, November 14, 2012 2:40 PM

BYTEMITE


I'm thinking IT was a black hole.

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Wednesday, November 14, 2012 9:05 PM

RIONAEIRE

Beir bua agus beannacht


Oonj, you could use the term "undefined creator" or just "the mysterious and unknown creator" if you liked, that would convey your feelings/beliefs on the matter sucinctly.

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya

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Wednesday, November 14, 2012 9:54 PM

OONJERAH



What if I make an acronym of All That There Is, ATTI?
Atti the Creator.
That'd work for me, but no one would know what it means.


=========================

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Thursday, November 15, 2012 5:10 AM

BYTEMITE


There is some precedence for "I am that is." In hebrew, that is the tetragrammaton, YHWH or Yahweh. Most people will recognize that reference instantly.

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Thursday, November 15, 2012 5:30 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Quote:

Originally posted by BYTEMITE:
There is some precedence for "I am that is." In hebrew, that is the tetragrammaton, YHWH or Yahweh. Most people will recognize that reference instantly.



Hello,

Come to think of it, Popeye's catch phrase is quite Biblical.

--Anthony


Note to Self:
Raptor - woman testifying about birth control is a slut (the term applies.)
Context: http://tinyurl.com/d6ozfej
Six - Wow, isn't Niki quite the CUNT? And, yes, I spell that in all caps....
http://tinyurl.com/bdjgbpe
Wulf - Niki is a stupid fucking bitch who should hurry up and die.
Context: http://tinyurl.com/afve3r9

“The stupid neither forgive nor forget; the naive forgive and forget; the wise forgive but do not forget.” -T. S. Szasz

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Thursday, November 15, 2012 5:42 AM

BYTEMITE


It's an alternate translation. But with slightly more yams.

...possibly baked yams with brown sugar and marshmallows. Hopefully no spinach.

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Thursday, November 15, 2012 5:59 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Just to say: Oonj, I have no problem with The Universe. It's akin to what I call "Nature"...the idea that maybe there is/was something that started it, and I'm quite comfortable with "a dance of energies. Where they reach a harmonic node, you get an electron - or a proton - or gravity".
Quote:

"We believed there is intelligence in/of the U far greater than any human. Some of the Intelligent were, like us, creatures/created by the ultimate intelligence, the Universe. The intelligence of the Universe was not considered to be human-like or egotistical. Nor understandable or describeable.
Why not "The Creator"--maybe comes too close to "god", but the concept that some force or other started the whole thing, sans sitting around watching it from then on and sticking it's finger into it, is appealing. Tho' I view it differently from what the "creationists" believe, so maybe that's too confusing.
Quote:

I assume (foolishly?) there are Creatures more than twice as smart as Homo Sap, and they are in awe of the infinite intelligence of the Creator.

I don't think your assumption is foolish...it's a theory I'd be quite comfortable with as well.

My wish has always been that humans could friggin' EVOLVE past our stupidity and self-centeredness, and that if we did, said evolution might take the form of pure intelligence (which Star Trek also posited), as well as pure compassion and pure "togetherness". I don't know what we MIGHT evolve into if we were to truly evolve past our current petty idiocy, but I thought that might be nice.

Tit for tat got us where we are today. If we want to be grownups, we need to resist the ugliness. If we each did, this would be a better reflection on Firefly and a more welcome place. I will try.

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Thursday, November 15, 2012 10:18 AM

OONJERAH



Quote Bytemite: "There is some precedence for "I am that is."
In hebrew, that is the tetragrammaton, YHWH or Yahweh. Most
people will recognize that reference instantly."

For the last (3?) posts, I've said, I want to distance myself from
the Yahweh image as much as I possibly can.

He was always somewhat vengeful. But some/many modern Christians
have become downright psychotically vengeful, self-righteously,
insanely assuring themselves that this is what God wants.

I don't want to be seen as a Right wingnut whenever I say "God."


=========================

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Thursday, November 15, 2012 10:40 AM

OONJERAH


Quote Niki: "My wish has always been that humans could friggin'
EVOLVE past our stupidity and self-centeredness, and that if
we did, said evolution might take the form of pure intelligence
(which Star Trek also posited), as well as pure compassion and
pure "togetherness". I don't know what we MIGHT evolve into if
we were to truly evolve past our current petty idiocy, but I
thought that might be nice."

Standard issue for the human brain-body complex includes a
very powerful survival instinct along with a near as strong,
developing ego. The ego often becomes a "mad monkey mind;"
my job is to become responsible for mine, controlling it instead
of the other way round.

It has been demonstrated that there are ways to "cool out" the
ego & survival fear, and to become calm, relaxed objective.
I have known this for years. But the practice of this responsible
mind control is just like going on a difficult diet: I will start
tomorrow.

Our species as a whole, I see, prefers the "mad monkey mind."


=========================

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Thursday, November 15, 2012 10:43 AM

BYTEMITE


Ah. Okay.

There might be an appropriate Buddhist analogue of the concept in that case. I know that nirvana is supposed to be something like merging with the universe as a whole and becoming immortal.

Unfortunately I don't know as much about Buddhism as I do the Judeo-Islam-Christian religions.

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Thursday, November 15, 2012 11:00 AM

OONJERAH



The Real Creator, All That There Is, is Not about religion.
I don't know what IT is about; for I am a mere earthworm
which cannot comprehend IT.

Religion is not about God, it just pretends to be. Religion
is politics, mind control, crowd control, money.

I'm told and believe that Buddhism is less "religious," and
more about The Way. Yoga is about The Way and less often
confused with religion.

Some people reject all religions for becoming rigid, dogmatic,
petty.

Can I clear my mind for just a moment of all my religious
images & expectations? Think of the Big Bang for creator;
No religious contamination there. The Real Creator just Is.


=========================

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Thursday, November 15, 2012 11:12 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Quote:

I know that nirvana is supposed to be something like merging with the universe as a whole and becoming immortal.


Hello,

Also what you described the fate of the Universe to be in scientific terms.

--Anthony




Note to Self:
Raptor - woman testifying about birth control is a slut (the term applies.)
Context: http://tinyurl.com/d6ozfej
Six - Wow, isn't Niki quite the CUNT? And, yes, I spell that in all caps....
http://tinyurl.com/bdjgbpe
Wulf - Niki is a stupid fucking bitch who should hurry up and die.
Context: http://tinyurl.com/afve3r9

“The stupid neither forgive nor forget; the naive forgive and forget; the wise forgive but do not forget.” -T. S. Szasz

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Thursday, November 15, 2012 11:15 AM

BYTEMITE


There are... issues with the big bang theory. I don't believe it was a unique event, or that the universe technically had a beginning. It is difficult for me to discuss a creator when I don't believe there was a creation. It is especially difficult for me to assign any sort of intelligence to something I do not think existed.

As you can see, it is impossible to reconcile my beliefs with one that has a creator. However, I do think you all are free to believe what you wish, or what makes sense to you, especially if you believe it makes the world you live in that much richer for believing in it.

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Thursday, November 15, 2012 11:38 AM

OONJERAH


Bytemite: "There are... issues with the big bang theory."

I neither believe nor disbelieve the big bang theory. I
don't understand it.

Big Bang's appeal is it has No religious contamination.
It is so far clean in that, as far as I know, no one has
assigned intent to Big Bang.

The Real Creator, in my image of IT, has intelligence,
purpose, intent. And only IT can know them.

Now if I have to say, "The Big Bang and The Real Creator
are the same thing," in order to get clear of religion,
I ain't gonna do it. They are Not the same.

Byte, you claim to have been raised free of religion. I'd
expect it'd be quite easy for you to consider a higher
intelligence free of religion.


=========================

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Thursday, November 15, 2012 11:51 AM

BYTEMITE


Quote:

Byte, you claim to have been raised free of religion. I'd
expect it'd be quite easy for you to consider a higher
intelligence free of religion.



...No? Not really? At least not one that created everything, or which caused a single moment that led to everything. Intelligence doesn't have to be a part of that at all, it's not even something that has to occur to me or even be something I think about.

I believe everything we see arose simply according to random statistics. When the universe itself is near infinite, the long shots become not quite so long. And now we're starting to find it might not even be a long shot due to the direction the laws of physics have gone, and there are perfectly logical reasons why the laws of physics have developed this way.

But, as I already said, that has no bearing on any of you and what you all might believe.

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Thursday, November 15, 2012 12:58 PM

OONJERAH


Quote Bytemite: "there are perfectly logical reasons why the
laws of physics have developed this way."

Right.
They just observed, defined & followed the rules of "nature."
Physics is logical. Chemistry is logical. Math is logical.
That is not a news flash.
The Universe that we see is perfectly logical and consistent.
Thus we are able to create a science to understand it.

Even before science, people were aware of consistent patterns
in the world and they relied on them.
As for the considerable intelligence of primitive people, see
"The Gods Must Be Crazy."


=========================
A man's gotta know his limitations. ~Dirty Harry

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Thursday, November 15, 2012 6:30 PM

MAGONSDAUGHTER


I've always been struck by both the anger and the mercurial qualities of the god of the OT, easily angered, quick to change his mind on stuff.

"Damn, I made these people, and they turned out all rotten. I guess I will kill them all. Except that one, oh and his kids can live. And animals, I still like the animals even if I do kill off most of them."

"Those cities are bad, everyone in them are all going to die."

"hey dude, prove that you love me by murdering your son. ONLY JOKING!!"

"Here, eat any fruit in this garden. Except this one in the middle. I put it there in your garden, but I forbid you to eat it." Boy, did that one ever succeed, EVER, with kids?

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Thursday, November 15, 2012 6:45 PM

OONJERAH



Yahweh wasn't really so bad, y'know. He just had bad writers.

I mean, look, didn't He take good care of the Jews?
He'd say, "Those Moabites (or Ammonites) have pissed me off,
and they are Bad people. Why don't you just go and kill off
all their men and take their stuff?"

... The story of Lot is one of my favorites.


======================
A man's gotta know his limitations. ~Dirty Harry

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