REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

Canada lawmakers ban masks at protests

POSTED BY: SIGNYM
UPDATED: Thursday, December 7, 2023 06:32
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Friday, November 2, 2012 10:33 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

OTTAWA — Parliament passed a ban on wearing masks at riots that punishes violations with up to 10 years behind bars in a bid to crack down on radical groups. The measure, adopted 153 to 126 on the Halloween holiday that sees revelers walk the streets in masks and costumed, aims to target the "growing threat" of vandalism and violence, said Parliamentarian Blake Richards, who sponsored the bill.

Lawmakers are especially targeting the Black Bloc anarchist group, whose members dress in black, their faces hidden by glasses, scarves and hoods. They have sometimes showed violence during massive student protests against plans to raise university tuition costs in Quebec. The bill sets 10 years in prison for people who wear a mask during a riot without legitimate excuses, and five years if it is an illegal protest.


-AFP

WTF??? Seriously???

Let's see if I got this right... the financials bombed the world economy, the military-industrial complex pre-deployed dirty bombs everywhere in the world (in the form of nuclear power plants) just waiting for something to go wrong, much or our world has been turned into wasteland, and the answer to all of these problems is total surveillance because somebody somewhere might object to the clusterfuck that is become our society???

https://www.eff.org/press/releases/three-nsa-whistleblowers-back-effs-
lawsuit-over-governments-massive-spying-program


WHO are "they" protecting us from? Kids in masks? Rioters throwing rocks? "Terrorists"??? Yanno, if they're going to surveill anyone, who not poke their noses into hedge funds and tax evaders and banks? Why not look into whose pockets are getting lined at the government level? Who is the bigger threat to me?

Yeesh.

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Friday, November 2, 2012 12:11 PM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


I find your reaction somewhat simplistic.

I think an up-to-ten-year sentence for this infraction totally incredible.

Personally, I'd have LOVED it if our own Black Bloc hadn't been allowed to wear masks.

I believe the article said "masks at riots", and had nothing to do with Halloween.

I don't like the idea of banning masks at protests, given how that has been utilized in other countries

And lastly, to return to my first point, I don't think there's much comparison between the things you listed, and I think there is a far better chance of stopping people who are smashing windows and burning cars than there ever will be in stopping hedge-fund managers from stealing people's money. Just sayin'

Tit for tat got us where we are today. If we want to be grownups, we need to resist the ugliness. If we each did, this would be a better reflection on Firefly and a more welcome place. I will try.

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Friday, November 2, 2012 1:18 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by Niki2:

And lastly, to return to my first point, I don't think there's much comparison between the things you listed, and I think there is a far better chance of stopping people who are smashing windows and burning cars than there ever will be in stopping hedge-fund managers from stealing people's money. Just sayin'




And therein lies the problem. While one may be more visible and make a better soundbite on the evening news, the other is far more destructive and costly.

Until a riot or protest costs over a trillion dollars and crashes the world economy, I doubt I'm going to be convinced that protests are what's wrong with the world. Unless they mean NOT ENOUGH PROTESTS!



"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence [sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero

"I was wrong" - Hero, 2012

Mitt Romney, introducing his running mate: "Join me in welcoming the next President of the United States, Paul Ryan!"

Rappy's response? "You're lying, gullible ( believing in some BS you heard on msnbc ) or hard of hearing."

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Friday, November 2, 2012 1:38 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


"Masks at riots". Tell me, Niki, when should a cop use a taser? Only when shooting a gun isn't possible?? How many times has that been trangressed? Similarly, when is a demonstration a riot? When the demonstration doesn't have an official permit? When the demonstrators refuse to disperse? This is going to be a very gray line that police will step over time and time again.

"The people"... the average person, Jane and John Doe... are individually too weak to be a threat to... well, anyone. Jane and John Doe can't crash the world financial system; Jane and John Doe can't site a nuclear power plant and skimp on safety; Jane and John Doe are not about to waste an entire forest or redline an entire neighborhood. So I have to ask... again... who is the bigger threat, some people in masks or the head of Goldman Sachs? It's the people in power who ARE the bigger threat, simply because they HAVE power.

So in Europe we see banks controlling (supposedly) democratic governments, crashing the nations' economies while people riot in the streets. Same thing in Japan: colluding to keep information from people who are being literally poisoned by radiation.


And what is the response??? Surveillance and detention for those who protest with the only tool they have available- their bodies. The one-sided response... disinformation, surveillance, detention for the people; cozy solicitude for the wealthy few (the source of most of our ills).... it just made my head spin.

I got this from my hubby, I think he says this better than I can:

Quote:

Democracy can only exist among people who have nearly equivalent power. All else is myth. We live in a society controlled by a few unaccountable individuals. They determine the means and form of our existence. Yet we persist in denying this since to confront this situation we would have to face these individuals in a confrontational mode and they hold all the power. So rather we behave as if we had some form of control over our environment ourselves. We pretend that we can change this situation by changing our behavior since we are terrified of what we really have to do and that is to change the behavior of those who actually do control our world.


along with a quote from Slavoj Žižek
Quote:

This readiness to assume the guilt for the threats to our environment is deceptively reassuring: We like to be guilty since, if we are guilty, it all depends on us. We pull the strings of the catastrophe, so we can also save ourselves simply by changing our lives. What is really hard for us (at least in the West) to accept is that we are reduced to the role of a passive observer who sits and watches what our fate will be. To avoid this impotence, we engage in frantic, obsessive activities. We recycle old paper, we buy organic food, we install long-lasting light bulbs—whatever just so we can be sure that we are doing something. We make our individual contribution like the soccer fan who supports his team in front of a TV screen at home, shouting and jumping from his seat, in the belief that this will somehow influence the game's outcome.”



I would not feel guilty for wearing a mask. Cautious, maybe, but not guilty. Mask-wearing didn't cause the problem.

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Friday, November 2, 2012 5:32 PM

FREMDFIRMA



Given the current reaction to advocates and whistleblowers, I am all in favor of masks, severely so - hell my whole smoke and mirrors gig kinda started while reading about The White Rose Society and what HAPPENED to them when their identities became known.

Look at Bradley Manning, Julian Assange, Sioban Reynolds, Sibel Edmonds, and so on and so forth, for what the cost is gonna be, and for those without media and popular support, without political might to defend them, its far worse, you'd just fuckin dissappear - welcome to the new america.

No, wearing a mask is not an act of cowardice, but a statement that GETTING IT DONE is more important than credit for it, ego or vainglory, that it matters now HOW or WHO, but essentially WHAT and WHEN, and it allows joe sixpack to have his say without retribution from the powerful.
Our forefathers understood this themselves, there's a reason your vote is private, or at least intended to be, that "mask" exists for the same damn reason.

Will people misuse this, sure - people can and will misuse anything.
But as an excuse to strip them of a right I feel is necessary to speak truth to power I find their rationale wholly inadequate.

-Frem

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Saturday, November 3, 2012 12:22 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Posted by Frem:

Our forefathers understood this themselves, there's a reason your vote is private, or at least intended to be, that "mask" exists for the same damn reason.



Also why they wrote the Federalist Papers and anti-Federalists under assumed names, and why they disguised themselves before carrying out the Boston Tea Party...



"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence [sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero

"I was wrong" - Hero, 2012

Mitt Romney, introducing his running mate: "Join me in welcoming the next President of the United States, Paul Ryan!"

Rappy's response? "You're lying, gullible ( believing in some BS you heard on msnbc ) or hard of hearing."

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Saturday, November 3, 2012 7:41 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Sigh...yes, Sig, I knew I was poking your sacred cow and I'd get a response pretty much like this. We all have our biases, I just don't happen to share yours to the extent you do. Having been in protests both peaceful and violent, for me there's some perspective.

I'm afraid I don't equate the financials having bombed the world economy, the military-industrial complex having pre-deployed dirty bombs everywhere in the world as actually relating to the idea of demonstrators not being able to wear masks, nor do I consider such as "total surveillance", nor do I relate the wearing of masks (in America, largely because the person wearing it intends to do ILLEGAL DAMAGE) to the millions of somebodies out there who object to the clusterfuck that has become our society. The majority of those I have seen wearing masks at protests aren't objecting to the way things are, they are using the excuse to run amok. Some of them unquestionably are serious protesters, who probably are much like you in their beliefs and feelings, but not the majority of them.

I don't LIKE it, mind you, I just don't see it as world-shakingly as you do. And I certainly don't see how wearing a mask in any way connects to the intricately--let's say PROFESSIONALLY--executed actions of banks, etc.

In my OPINION, if I'm not willing to show my face to express my beliefs by protesting, I don't anticipate too many people taking me seriously and I would expect it to do my cause more harm than good, especially if I use a mask to hide my identity while being violent.

If the day comes in America where it's not SAFE to protest (and no, I don't mean the occasional infractions which unquestionably affect the individual involved's freedoms, I mean were it to become like some other countries where merely showing one's face at a protest could cost one their life), I'll feel differently. Right now, the only ones wearing masks do so to cause harm. So I stand by my originally-stated OPINIONS.

Tit for tat got us where we are today. If we want to be grownups, we need to resist the ugliness. If we each did, this would be a better reflection on Firefly and a more welcome place. I will try.

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Saturday, November 3, 2012 8:25 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Can you rephrase your comment? I have no idea what you're trying to say.

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Saturday, November 3, 2012 11:23 AM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


If I were to do some mind-reading I think her response is deeply emotional and due to the presence of masked folk at Occupy Oakland. She seems to think disruptors generally are the reason why the Occupy movement more generally failed, and blames them rather than TPTB for the repression across the country.

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Saturday, November 3, 2012 4:22 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Niki- is that a fair summation?

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Sunday, November 4, 2012 4:42 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


OK Niki, so without a restatement, here's the best I can make of your post, along with remaining questions

Quote:

I'm afraid I don't equate the financials having bombed the world economy, the military-industrial complex having pre-deployed dirty bombs everywhere in the world as actually relating to the idea of demonstrators not being able to wear masks


What do you mean "equate"? "Equate means "to make equal". You're right. Destroying hundreds of millions of jobs, homes, and lives and poisoning people with radionuclides is far more serious than banning masks. So in what sense are you using the word "equate"?

But they ARE "related". Mask-banning is a direct response to major demonstrations in Canada. Yes, polite bucolic Canada.

Canada has had number of peaceful demonstrations it would prefer NOT to have had, such as the G20 demonstration in Toronto which turned violent when police charged, maced, and jailed peaceful demonstrators and bystanders alike.

http://pushedleft.blogspot.com/2010/09/toronto-star-is-right-theres-no
.html



And Montreal had 100 days of peaceful student protests against fee hikes, only to have the government attempt to squash even that by passing "Emergency Law Bill 78" requiring permits for all gatherings. That Emergency Law also resulted in a demonstration... a peaceful protest made completely illegal by the new law



So, let's see... you can't buy a gazillion hours of advert time, you can't make your views known especially if the press might be coming through or you get relegated to some distant "free speech zone", you can't hold peaceful protests, software exists for facial (and soon to be gait) recognition to pick people out of a crowd.... people who may be doing nothing other than exercising their right to free speech. After a while, will it be illegal to do anything other than stand like sheep for the police to collect up? Seriously, Niki, don't you see a problem of creeping fascism?

Quote:

nor do I consider such as "total surveillance"
Yanno, protesters are talking about how to foil face recognition software. It IS part of "total surveillance", because if you don't agree to being totally surveilled then you're automatically guilty.

Quote:

nor do I relate the wearing of masks (in America, largely because the person wearing it intends to do ILLEGAL DAMAGE) to the millions of somebodies out there who object to the clusterfuck that has become our society.
Well, it seems to me that maybe you SHOULD relate them. First of all, I guess I'm a little ... somewhere between amused and irritated... that you would draw the line at ILLEGAL DAMAGE.

GOSH! ILLEGAL DAMAGE! HORRORS!

So, is "legal damage" better? Less dangerous and less consequential?

And the banning of protests and masks, the "free speech zones" and the surveillance state that we have become... isn't THAT part of the clusterfuck? Shouldn't you be protesting that as well?

So, I guess I'm still puzzled by your response. It seems to be somewhere "mask-wearers are assholes anyway because they want to do illegal damage" and "mask-wearing won't do any good anyway".

I presume that you still believe that civil disobedience is the way to go. But wearing a mask... like sitting on the wrong seat of a bus... is just another form.

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Sunday, November 4, 2012 9:12 PM

MAGONSDAUGHTER


For some reason I read this title as 'Canadian lawnmakers..."

Weird.

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Monday, November 5, 2012 4:42 AM

BYTEMITE


Our intelligence agencies are our greatest enemies. Strange as it sounds, except for morons hand fed by those same intelligence agencies into thinking that they can destroy a bridge with laundry detergent, the Black Bloc Anarchists are a necessary force, distracting the police brutality from the average citizens and better prepared to make that stand.

That said, while most of the time the people busting windows are cops, it's important to keep your friendly Anarchists at your protest on task. They're a little bit like cats, wave a laser pointer in front of them and they completely forget what they were just doing.

I concede, however, that silly ski masks, Guy Fawkes masks, scarves, and glasses are a pretty weak showing. You want to conceal your identity, fine, but there are better options for masks that can do that. Such as gas masks, ear muffs, and full body protective gear.

That's right, I said it. Protests need their own riot-gear wearing front line. And they need their own back of the crowd surveillance and subterfuge team. No protest is complete without a covert ops remote controlled weather balloon.

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Monday, November 5, 2012 4:47 AM

BYTEMITE


Quote:

Our forefathers understood this themselves, there's a reason your vote is private, or at least intended to be, that "mask" exists for the same damn reason.


There's a reason the original Boston tea party was wearing Indian outfits when they boarded those ships and dumped the cargo into the harbor, folks.

EDIT: Ah, I see Kwicko anticipated me.

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Monday, November 5, 2012 5:02 AM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up


So if people are forced to protest without masks in very cold weather (I understand that it does get cold in Canada) and get frostbitten noses and faces, is the Canadian government liable? I know Canadian citizens might be covered by Canada Healthcare, but what about U.S. citizens going to protests there?

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Monday, November 5, 2012 5:12 AM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.




For protection from viruses that may be in crowds.

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Monday, November 5, 2012 7:57 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


KIKI- BRILLIANT! I know that wearing surgical half-masks is very common in Asian cultures. Hell, if you go into a doctor's waiting office during flu season with flu-like symptoms, they'll often hand you one. So wearing one in a crowd COULD just be self-protection against the flu, or perhaps even protecting others from something YOU have. And those masks have a quasi-official status... they have to do with doctors, nurses, and contagious diseases. Yeah, wow. I wonder what would happen if people started wearing surgical masks instead of the Guy Fawkes masks, ski masks, or scarves??? What would it look like: The March of the Hypochondriacs??? What if people marched wearing full surgical scrubs? Would police hesitate to beat one someone who COULD be an ER doctor or nurse treating THEM tomorrow?

MAGONS- DAMN your eyes! Now that you mention it, that's all I can see: Canadian lawnmakers. Yes, you have to watch out for those lawnmakers... always underhanded and underfoot.

NIKI- On reflection, I think I see your point: The presence of the Black Bloc makes any demonstration potentially more dangerous for those who simply want to demonstrate peacefully. It's easy for me to cheer from the sidelines, because all of the demonstrations I've ever been with have been peaceful. But now, as a woman of advancing years with a sick husband and a disabled daughter, the thought of a real physical tussle, the possibility of injury and arrest, the time away from dependent loved ones ... those are serious considerations.
And once the batons start swinging the police don't distinguish between peaceful and provocative, demonstrator or bystander.

I think, though, that even peaceful demonstrations are quite often not tolerated, and those that are the most well-tolerated are also the most ineffective. I recall a huge march in Washington DC approx 1977... estimated at 100,000 women in support of the ERA. They marched, they spoke, they picked up their trash after themselves and got a back-page picture of two women cooling their feet in a fountain (Must be lesbos, *wink wink*) and caption in our city paper. And, funny, but equal rights for women never WAS voted into the Constitution, was it?

http://www.pbs.org/pov/brotheroutsider/march/pastmarches07_era.html

To some extend, I judge the effectiveness of an activity by the amount of effort that that right-wing puts in to countering it. That's why I see the VOTE as so important... if it didn't matter, they wouldn't be spending so much damn money on it. Same with communications: Must be important, or advertising wouldn't be such a big sector. Big demonstrations which engender no response are a waste of time.

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Monday, November 5, 2012 9:19 AM

FREMDFIRMA



Believe it or not, surgical masks are already semi-affiliated with gang culture in other countries, not the least of which is Japan where it is a staple of "Yankees" - this is often spelled differently to distinquish it from the slang term for Americans, and the gang in question is something akin to our biker types.

And a certain tactical issue has been raised, but there's a certain chicken-and-egg confusion to it, I think, regarding black bloc operations.

See, they tend to show up when they know a protest is GOING to turn violent, and while not always dead-bang easy, as a rule it's not too hard to tell the difference between actual black-bloc'ers and police infiltrators - it's actually rare for anarchists to initiate violence, and even rarer for it to be senselessly destructive, functionally ineffective and maliciously provocative... you see some asshats in masks doing that, start looking for standard issue police footwear.

However, when violence DOES start, no matter who started it, they will move to the fore, and there's a reason for this - anyone familiar with MMO gaming knows what Tanking is.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tank_%28gaming%29
Reason behind this is to allow both ordinary protestors and innocent bystanders to get the hell out of dodge without being kettled(1) and trapped into a beatdown, and provide a solid line against the aggressive police brutality which tends to spiral out of control since they're usually better prepared for it.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kettling

Thing with that is, due to the uselessness of conventional protest, these days, which more or less amounts to painting a bullseye on yourself and standing around waiting to be stepped on while the media ignores you, they've been less and less willing to engage over the past couple years, and despite the running jokes there *is* a certain amount of organisation amongst them (how else you think they get 30 of em to show up at once, ehe?) so when no bloc is formed, and a bunch of folks in masks and black outfits start senselessly trashing things in a way that does minimal damage but provides a handy excuse.... it ain't hard to make some guesses about who they may be.

If you ever DO find yourself stuck in a protest by design or accident (say as a bystander), it's worth trying to actually SPEAK to the Bloc'ers and see if they'll detail you an escort or help you get out of the conflict zone before things go south, and they'd generally do it, unless, yanno, they're the other guys.

-Frem

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Monday, November 5, 2012 9:26 AM

BYTEMITE


Figured as much. :)

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Monday, November 5, 2012 12:43 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

...you see some asshats in masks doing that, start looking for standard issue police footwear.
Interesting, that.

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Monday, November 5, 2012 2:28 PM

HKCAVALIER


Ya see, Signy: there's your silver lining. Since it's always the police dressed as Black Bloc doing the violence, now that it's illegal to wear masks, they're kinda fucked. Oh, the irony warms my heart, it does.

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

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Monday, November 5, 2012 2:34 PM

RIONAEIRE

Beir bua agus beannacht


I don't agree with this and think its rediculous and unfair. But if Canada wants to be stupid that's their right, I can't stop them. Just so long as no one makes that rule here.

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya

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Monday, November 5, 2012 4:47 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


Quote:

Originally posted by HKCavalier:
Ya see, Signy: there's your silver lining. Since it's always the police dressed as Black Bloc doing the violence, now that it's illegal to wear masks, they're kinda fucked. Oh, the irony warms my heart, it does.

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.



It does make the ubiquitous cell phone very handy.

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Monday, November 5, 2012 7:06 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

It does make the ubiquitous cell phone very handy.
Except

...No shooting at protest? Police may block mobile devices via Apple

Quote:

Apple has patented a piece of technology which would allow government and police to block transmission of information, including video and photographs, from any public gathering or venue they deem “sensitive”, and “protected from externalities.” ­In other words, these powers will have control over what can and cannot be documented on wireless devices during any public event.

And while the company says the affected sites are to be mostly cinemas, theaters, concert grounds and similar locations, Apple Inc. also says “covert police or government operations may require complete ‘blackout’ conditions.”


Ah, big government and big business, joined at the hip.

http://rt.com/news/apple-patent-transmission-block-408/


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Monday, November 5, 2012 7:16 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


Well, one could go to a different mfg but I suppose other mfgs could follow suit. Maybe some enterprising people will jailbreak that app. Or people will have to go with small cameras or videocams.

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Monday, November 5, 2012 9:01 PM

FREMDFIRMA


That's actually a running gag with me and Mikey, Sig - the sheer NUMBER of times police infiltrators have been outed that way is downright embarassing, not to mention when they send a couple of steroid sucking no-necks to try infiltrating a pack of pipestem skinny college students, as if everybody doesn't KNOW who they are, especially since all the college geeks kinda know each other ?

I mean, it's like they just ain't even bothering with pretenses any more and that's kind of unnerving.

Oh, and an interesting note in regards to civilian drone based countersurveillence crossed my desk today, when they expect the best, use low tech, heh.
Remember those model rockets with the mini-cameras on em ?
Just sayin...

Here's a good shot at the footwear giveaway.
http://www.globalresearch.ca/the-toronto-g20-riot-fraud-undercover-pol
ice-engaged-in-purposeful-provocation/19928


There's a vid too - these creepers were OBVIOUSLY cops, from the get-go, it shows in their attitude, body language, movement and gait, as well as speech patterns.

I won't say that anarchists do not engage in violence, but generally when they do it's very specifically targeted with an actual reason behind it, and beyond that I would rather not discuss specifics of tactics for obvious reasons, as well as the less obvious reason of them in general being undecided at this point on where to go from here.

-Frem

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Thursday, December 7, 2023 6:32 AM

JAYNEZTOWN


they won't be using the H-1B United States system

Indian students don't want to go to Canada!


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Slate: I Changed My Mind About Kids and Phones. I Hope Everyone Else Does, Too.
Tue, April 23, 2024 19:38 - 2 posts
No Thread On Topic, More Than 17 Days After Hamas Terrorists Invade, Slaughter Innocent Israelis?
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Pardon Me? Michael Avenatti Flips, Willing To Testify On Trump's Behalf
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FACTS
Mon, April 22, 2024 20:10 - 552 posts
Russian losses in Ukraine
Mon, April 22, 2024 17:47 - 1010 posts
I agree with everything you said, but don't tell anyone I said that
Mon, April 22, 2024 16:15 - 16 posts

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