REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

This place...

POSTED BY: NIKI2
UPDATED: Tuesday, October 9, 2012 03:15
SHORT URL:
VIEWED: 7575
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Monday, October 1, 2012 6:54 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


It's been said before by others, and by me, but I'll say it again.

Only coming here every other day or so, I find it frustrating to even bother. I am struck by the same thing as many others who only come here occasionally. This place has turned almost COMPLETELY into a forum of tit-for-tat between a very few people. I skip a lot of threads because of that, and others I just read the first few posts then maybe add a post of my own at the end.

Is this really what we want? Yeah, it's an election year and things (from what I've heard from others) go this way especially before elections, but it's really saddening. And frustrating to the rest of us. We'd LIKE to talk about real world events, but almost every post that gets put up, even those not about politics specifically, degenerates into a lengthy "I know you are, but what am I" infantile back and forth between just a couple of people. All Rap has to do anymore to derail a discussion is post ONCE, something totally irrelevant, snarky or a personal attack, and away you guys go.

If this is really how you want RWED to end up, just some ridiculous threads consisting of little but playground bickering and insults, nobody can stop you. I'm just saying what many others have said--most of those others long gone by now. We used to have some wonderful voices here; we used to have some lively discussions; most of them are gone now, and most of those left just brawl.

It wasn't like that when I first arrived...I hope what some have said comes to pass, that after the election there will be more discussions of other things and more voices to hear...but at present, I tend to have little hope. I either go away after a few minutes (unless I get caught up in some debate, which is more and more rare) or try to put up a few things NONpolitical before I go.

Okay, pile on me for "telling people how to behave" or whatever; all I know is, I'm here less and less and others have left; if it keeps up, it will only be you few, going at each other constantly. If that's what you want, so be it.

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Monday, October 1, 2012 7:04 AM

BYTEMITE


I've been trying to leave for a year now, but I lack the conviction.

And before you say it: yes, I know. I would not be missed.

This discussion board dug it's own grave. It's not the bickering, there was always that. It's the chasing people away. The less voices you have to drown out the bickering, the more it seems like bickering is all there is.

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Monday, October 1, 2012 7:10 AM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


Serious discussion is hard. It's thoughtful. It's slow.

People start with their own particular area of interest, which may not overlap with anyone else's. Mine is human evolution. Not too many people care about that, leaving me few people to discuss it with.

Even IF you start with a well-intended group, it's unrealistic to expect that everyone will drop their particular interest and spend the time to come up to speed to discuss yours at your level. Or if they do, it will take a while.

So RWE becomes for the most part an exchange of opinions about well-publicized topical items, opinions based mostly on emotional habits developed over a lifetime.

Thoughtful and quick response just isn’t going to happen.

And then of course there is the divide between the RWAs for whom facts are anathema, and the others who believe in their souls that the truth will set you free.

Personally, I like the people who hammer on Geezer and little rappy and the like who do it with HUMOR. It's my LOL moment.

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Monday, October 1, 2012 7:18 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


No, Byte, you WOULD be missed. By me and I'm guessing others. Yours is one of the few voices that DOESN'T usually get trapped into the tit-for-tat shit. And I'm interested in your opinions, as I am of everyone's...except those whose opinions I already know and who have nothing of any validity to add to any discussion. (In other words: quit puttin' yerself down, woman!) ;o)

Your last paragraph pretty much sums it up for me...and with that, I'm outta here. I tried to put up a few things, maybe one or another will catch someone's interest, maybe not. Probably not.

Kiki, I'M interested in human evolution... just sayin'. I'm interested in astronomy, environment, animals, and lots and lots more. I guarantee if I came here and found a discussion on something interesting, I'd read it and join in. Hey, I can dream...see 'ya.


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Monday, October 1, 2012 10:20 AM

HKCAVALIER


Hey Niki,

It absolutely gets this bad--and worse--every 4 years. And every four years we have people starting threads on how they're leaving and, I dare say, every four years we have threads on the subject of this four year cycle. Things will be back to "normal" in a few months.

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

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Monday, October 1, 2012 10:26 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by HKCavalier:
Hey Niki,

It absolutely gets this bad--and worse--every 4 years. And every four years we have people starting threads on how they're leaving and, I dare say, every four years we have threads on the subject of this four year cycle. Things will be back to "normal" in a few months.

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.




Exactly. Seen it before, expect to see it again. 2006, 2008, 2010...



"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence [sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero

"I was wrong" - Hero, 2012

Mitt Romney, introducing his running mate: "Join me in welcoming the next President of the United States, Paul Ryan!"

Rappy's response? "You're lying, gullible ( believing in some BS you heard on msnbc ) or hard of hearing."

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Monday, October 1, 2012 12:09 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!



The 10 year anniversary, and the airing of the Firefly reunion panel on the Science channel next month, remind me of how special this show is and why I bother even coming to this site.




" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Tuesday, October 2, 2012 7:46 AM

BIGDAMNNOBODY


Quote:

Originally posted by Niki2:
Only coming here every other day or so, I find it frustrating to even bother. I am struck by the same thing as many others who only come here occasionally. This place has turned almost COMPLETELY into a forum of tit-for-tat between a very few people. I skip a lot of threads because of that, and others I just read the first few posts then maybe add a post of my own at the end.

Is this really what we want? Yeah, it's an election year and things (from what I've heard from others) go this way especially before elections, but it's really saddening. And frustrating to the rest of us. We'd LIKE to talk about real world events, but almost every post that gets put up, even those not about politics specifically, degenerates into a lengthy "I know you are, but what am I" infantile back and forth between just a couple of people. All Rap has to do anymore to derail a discussion is post ONCE, something totally irrelevant, snarky or a personal attack, and away you guys go.

If this is really how you want RWED to end up, just some ridiculous threads consisting of little but playground bickering and insults, nobody can stop you. I'm just saying what many others have said--most of those others long gone by now. We used to have some wonderful voices here; we used to have some lively discussions; most of them are gone now, and most of those left just brawl.

It wasn't like that when I first arrived...I hope what some have said comes to pass, that after the election there will be more discussions of other things and more voices to hear...but at present, I tend to have little hope. I either go away after a few minutes (unless I get caught up in some debate, which is more and more rare) or try to put up a few things NONpolitical before I go.

Okay, pile on me for "telling people how to behave" or whatever; all I know is, I'm here less and less and others have left; if it keeps up, it will only be you few, going at each other constantly. If that's what you want, so be it.


As it was your position that the French cartoonist's should have known better than to satirize the prophet Mohammed. Perhaps you should know better than to start a myriad number of highly partisan threads which cause the back and forth you so lament.

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Tuesday, October 2, 2012 11:36 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by BIGDAMNNOBODY:
As it was your position that the French cartoonist's should have known better than to satirize the prophet Mohammed. Perhaps you should know better than to start a myriad number of highly partisan threads which cause the back and forth you so lament.



Rules are different for Leftists, BDN. You should know better by now.


" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Tuesday, October 2, 2012 12:22 PM

MAGONSDAUGHTER


Quote:

Originally posted by BIGDAMNNOBODY:

As it was your position that the French cartoonist's should have known better than to satirize the prophet Mohammed. Perhaps you should know better than to start a myriad number of highly partisan threads which cause the back and forth you so lament.



Personally, I quite like the controversial topics. But I find there is a difference between discussion on issues which may divide people, and the descent of a thread into nitpicking and name calling.

Unfortunately, discussion seems to have become a little limited to 'you're wrong' 'name call' 'liar' type responses, which is kind of boring.

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Wednesday, October 3, 2012 5:29 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Quote:

I find there is a difference between discussion on issues which may divide people, and the descent of a thread into nitpicking and name calling.

Unfortunately, discussion seems to have become a little limited to 'you're wrong' 'name call' 'liar' type responses, which is kind of boring.


I hope others are right and it gets back to being more discussion and less of the above after the election.


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Wednesday, October 3, 2012 6:23 AM

STORYMARK


Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:


Rules are different for Leftists, BDN. You should know better by now.




Translation: "Waaaaah. They keep expecting me to back my claims with evidence. Those mean libruls. Waaaah."


Note to anyone - Please pity the poor, poor wittle Rappyboy. He's feeling put upon lately, what with all those facts disagreeing with what he believes.

"We will never have the elite, smart people on our side." -- Rick "Frothy" Santorum


"Goram it kid, let's frak this thing and go home! Engage!"

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Wednesday, October 3, 2012 7:07 AM

FREMDFIRMA



I do try, but as of late I've been busy with work, getting a new prosthetic (this is *not* going well, friggin so-called-experts and IMHO it's fekkin amateur hour, arrghh!) and attempting to work with what amounts to a ragtag group of half clueless misfits in regards to an appalling situation in Pennsylvania compounded by technical issues since none of them can figure out the goddamn telepresence rig or has the tech to make it work right.

-F

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Wednesday, October 3, 2012 11:21 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by Storymark:
Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:


Rules are different for Leftists, BDN. You should know better by now.




Translation: "Waaaaah. They keep expecting me to back my claims with evidence. Those mean libruls. Waaaah."



See what I mean ? I always DO back my claims w/ evidence, but then there's the inevitable " I don't count right -wing news as being legitimate !" crap. Which is funny, because it accepts the premise that the MSM isn't 'right-wing', so it must be Left-wing, which everyone with a brain KNOWS to be the case, yet some still cling to the delusion that only FOX slants the news towards any political bias, and no one else has been doing so, for decades already.

And it should be noted how you completely ignored BDN's original comment, directed towards Niki. Yeah, best to over look all that, and take yet another swipe at me, huh?

" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Wednesday, October 3, 2012 11:40 AM

BYTEMITE


I usually try to find both a left wing and right wing source before I can be sure something actually happened. Otherwise I mostly just speculate to ridiculous extent.

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Wednesday, October 3, 2012 11:43 AM

BYTEMITE


Quote:

getting a new prosthetic (this is *not* going well, friggin so-called-experts and IMHO it's fekkin amateur hour, arrghh!)


Ouch. And I suspect I don't mean that figuratively.

Quote:

ragtag group of half clueless misfits in regards to an appalling situation in Pennsylvania


Well at least there's SOMEONE working that who knows what they're doing. By all accounts Pennsylvania is an absolute MESS.



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Wednesday, October 3, 2012 11:53 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:


See what I mean ? I always DO back my claims w/ evidence, but then there's the inevitable " I don't count right -wing news as being legitimate !" crap.



Riiiiiiight. You ALWAYS back your claims... except for when you don't. It would be more accurate to say that you *occasionally* provide sourcing, or *rarely* produce evidence when asked.

Quote:


Which is funny, because it accepts the premise that the MSM isn't 'right-wing', so it must be Left-wing, which everyone with a brain KNOWS to be the case, yet some still cling to the delusion that only FOX slants the news towards any political bias, and no one else has been doing so, for decades already.



That is hilarious. This statement shows clear evidence of your black-or-white-wrong-or-right way of thinking. If something isn't "right-wing", then "IT MUST BE LEFT-WING".

According to Rappy, there's no such thing as a middle ground, or an unbiased source, or a centrist. There are only right-wingers and left-wingers, and nobody in between.




"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence [sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero

"I was wrong" - Hero, 2012

Mitt Romney, introducing his running mate: "Join me in welcoming the next President of the United States, Paul Ryan!"

Rappy's response? "You're lying, gullible ( believing in some BS you heard on msnbc ) or hard of hearing."

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Wednesday, October 3, 2012 11:54 AM

PEACEKEEPER

Keeping order in every verse


I would dearly love to be an integral part of this crew, but unfortunately there is little room for us outsiders while the American issues are continually unfolding. Its a shame.

With the grace of age, commander, we learn to accept.

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Thursday, October 4, 2012 3:08 AM

OONJERAH



Yes, this matter has been on my mind for a while.

Sniping, baiting, bickering, one-up are great & amusing social outlets for some.
And we all need to have a bit of fun.
Some threads look like they are created mainly as a sparring ground. Good!
I'd be happy if the fighters would keep their battles in there.

When a topic is of interest to the non-combatants, and they want real communications,
the fighters should feel honor bound to leave it alone.

For example, Storymark:
Translation: "Waaaaah. They keep expecting me to back my claims with evidence.
Those mean libruls. Waaaah."

This place, this thread is about what to do with the petty BS, and you promptly give
a demonstration. One that's not constructive. I find this so inconsiderate, it's offensive.

BDN snipes Niki. Au supports this. Story has to jump on it. Not that y'all have no
self-control ... I suspect you'd simply never agree to let those who want to stay on
topic have a clean slate for their discussion.

Rude, juvenile and without merit. The wrecking crew!


=========================
I am convinced that life is 10% what happens to me and 90% of how I react to it. ~Charles R Swindoll

If I have to react to others all the time, then they own my mind more than I do.
But the alternative is to take responsibility. Uggh!

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Thursday, October 4, 2012 8:59 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Quote:

I always DO back my claims w/ evidence
Is he KIDDING? Most of the posts I see Rap put up have NO links...those that do link to not just right-wing "news", as he claims, but to right-wing websites like Drudge, which are about as "real" as citing MSNBC on the left! Amazing...

It's not the FACTS we dispute in stuff like that, it's that what they present is so damned slanted and they don't offer facts and figures to back them up (nor does Rap). I'll accept facts from any source, 'cuz I can go check them out for myself, but opinions stated as "fact" don't hold water.
Quote:

highly partisan threads which cause the back and forth you so lament
Another There are any number of other people here who also put up "highly partisan threads"--most notably Rap--but that's not the problem. It's the idiotic games several people here play (most notably Rap, and I'm sure now that Wulf is back...); anything put up can be debated, but what happens here bears little or no resemblance to a "debate"...or even a "discussion". It's the playground stuff that bothers me---and many others--not the subject of the threads. All of which is pretty immaterial, since the remark was nothing but a snark from Nobody anyway. As I quoted and agreed with before:
Quote:

I find there is a difference between discussion on issues which may divide people, and the descent of a thread into nitpicking and name calling.

Unfortunately, discussion seems to have become a little limited to 'you're wrong' 'name call' 'liar' type responses, which is kind of boring.

Quote:

According to Rappy, there's no such thing as a middle ground, or an unbiased source, or a centrist. There are only right-wingers and left-wingers, and nobody in between.
Nailed it, Mike. He's incapable of even conceiving of any kind of unbiased news, or even sources which TRY to be unbiased; there is only right wing (always "fair and balanced") and left-wing (LIARS!).

Peacekeeper, I'm sad you see it that way; I for one miss you BADLY, not just because I respect and like you, but because I've found since my time on the internet that it's people from other countries and news from other countries which give us really good perspective. It's a shame you feel unwelcome...I'd be tickled PINK if you posted stuff that's going on across the pond, being an admitted anglophile, but also because we get SO wrapped up in our own shit.

Oonj, you summed up my complaint in a nutshell:
Quote:

I suspect you'd simply never agree to let those who want to stay on topic have a clean slate for their discussion.

Rude, juvenile and without merit.

That is the entire point of this thread, thank you.


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Thursday, October 4, 2012 9:15 AM

STORYMARK


Quote:

Originally posted by Niki2:
Quote:

I always DO back my claims w/ evidence
Is he KIDDING? Most of the posts I see Rap put up have NO links...those that do link to not just right-wing "news", as he claims, but to right-wing websites like Drudge, which are about as "real" as citing MSNBC on the left! Amazing...



I think he really believes that if he says it - it MUST be true. And that's as deep as his thought process goes.


Note to anyone - Please pity the poor, poor wittle Rappyboy. He's feeling put upon lately, what with all those facts disagreeing with what he believes.

"We will never have the elite, smart people on our side." -- Rick "Frothy" Santorum


"Goram it kid, let's frak this thing and go home! Engage!"

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Thursday, October 4, 2012 9:17 AM

STORYMARK


Quote:

Originally posted by Oonjerah:
I find this so inconsiderate, it's offensive.




And I find his constant lying offensive.


Note to anyone - Please pity the poor, poor wittle Rappyboy. He's feeling put upon lately, what with all those facts disagreeing with what he believes.

"We will never have the elite, smart people on our side." -- Rick "Frothy" Santorum


"Goram it kid, let's frak this thing and go home! Engage!"

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Thursday, October 4, 2012 9:24 AM

WULFENSTAR

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg


This place is not interesting or alive unless I am here.

Its just an echo chamber without me.

"None of you seem to understand. I'm not locked in here with you... YOU are locked in here with ME."

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Thursday, October 4, 2012 10:32 AM

HKCAVALIER




HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

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Thursday, October 4, 2012 10:42 AM

BYTEMITE


How do I~ get through one night without you?
If I had to live without you,
What kind of life would that beeee?

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Thursday, October 4, 2012 10:51 AM

CANTTAKESKY


Quote:

Originally posted by WULFENSTAR:
This place is not interesting or alive unless I am here.
Its just an echo chamber without me.



Wulfie, light of my world.
Where have you been all my life?

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Thursday, October 4, 2012 11:12 AM

BIGDAMNNOBODY


Poor Niki.

I have seen her start several threads bashing Romney which she knows will get a rise out of Auraptor. Hell, I think I've even seen her write something along the lines of "I can't wait until the local right wing nuts show up with their usual rhetoric"

An Auraptor post will immediately be followed by several Kwicko, Storymark, SingyKikiRue posts all piling on while pretty much saying the same thing.
Auraptor then responds in kind and the next thing you know....

I am not saying Niki is the only one starting these threads. But she is the only one who seems to dislike the back and forth enough to start a thread about it. I notice she only seems to call out one side for the tit for tat (Auraptor, Wulf) while remaining silent regarding the worst culprits, IMHO.

And apparently, pointing out an obvious fact somehow means I am sniping Niki or some such.

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Thursday, October 4, 2012 11:28 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Quote:

This place is not interesting or alive unless I am here.

Its just an echo chamber without me.



...and it deserves every one of those...and more! What a statement... It obviously shows, among other things, that he doesn't READ RWED, or he'd know that this is FAR from an echo chamber without him, just slightly less insane. Far from making it "interesting" or "alive", his participation just shows there is one more ignorant crazy out there on the right, and nothing else.

As for Nobody, never said I didn't put up confrontational threads. They're not aimed at Rap or anyone else specifically, I put 'em up because I LIKE 'em. Of course I know the righties will come piling in; I'm just stating the obvious!

And I have, MANY TIMES in the past, come down on Mike, Mark and others for taking the bait and engaging in the same shit Rap, Wulf, etc., do. I admit I find Rap and Wulf to be the most amazing posters in that they seem to be determinedly ignorant and pretty much the worst on the right, but I have, definitely, "chastized" (if you will) those on the left who buy into the tit for tat. You probably never noticed, or you'd just rather claim the opposite, I don't know which.

I back out of the bullshit as best I can, and state that a thread has become irrelevant/boring/whatever; threads only BECOME that if lefties strike back, so that's also a put-down of them as well as the righties.

There isn't a damned "poor" thing about me. and yeah, it's my right as much as anyone else's to remark on how much of a bummer this place has become. I'm obviously not the only one who feels that way, I'm just the only one who'll speak up about it most of the time.

The difference is that of those who get involved in political battles, I'm about the only one who ALSO puts up threads about non-political topics...I deliberately seek them out as a balance against all the political bullshit.

So basically, Nobody:


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Thursday, October 4, 2012 1:41 PM

OONJERAH




Controversial topic: good.
Honest discusssion of controversial topic: good.
Being respectful of posters who disagree with you: good.

If I have a point of view and can back it up with reason, I hope others will listen to
what I am saying. I want to communicate. In turn, I must give others the same consideration.

Name calling, insults, character assassination, especially the knee-jerk kind,
is not discussion: bad.

Does anyone have a copy of the parliamentary rules of debate?
Simple good manners: good.

"But, Oonj!! I don't want to talk principles. I just want to hit somebody!"
I know that! Go ahead and do it. Have a whole buncha threads that are just about hitting.

But when someone who is here to share and communicate opens a topic for polite discussion,
please let them have a clean, enjoyable conversation. That is not much to ask.

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Thursday, October 4, 2012 2:30 PM

KPO

Sometimes you own the libs. Sometimes, the libs own you.


BDN, it's possible to have partisan, polarised debates without the sniping and the playground back and forth. That's what most posters come here to do.

Quote:

I notice she only seems to call out one side for the tit for tat (Auraptor, Wulf) while remaining silent regarding the worst culprits, IMHO.

I've heard her call out the left-wing culprits several times.

It's not personal. It's just war.

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Thursday, October 4, 2012 3:26 PM

PEACEKEEPER

Keeping order in every verse


And 20 posts later, my little contribution was not even noted. Which sort of illustrates my point perfectly. Even Dear Niki, who ALWAYS used to at least acknowledge my presence, has passed me over to continue the argument. I am slinking off to clean an Alliance toilet somewhere. When my vault is robbed, I will be pushed off the skiff to the Reavers.SOB!!!!

With the grace of age, commander, we learn to accept.

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Thursday, October 4, 2012 3:31 PM

CANTTAKESKY


Awww, Peacekeeper. Don't mind us. You know that unless you say something really stupid and offensive, no one pays attention to you on this board. That's how we are. The idiots get the bickering and attention. Myself included. :P

And didn't you get the memo that our world ends at the Atlantic?

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Thursday, October 4, 2012 4:14 PM

STORYMARK


Quote:

Originally posted by peacekeeper:
And 20 posts later, my little contribution was not even noted. Which sort of illustrates my point perfectly. Even Dear Niki, who ALWAYS used to at least acknowledge my presence, has passed me over to continue the argument....



No, she didn't. She addresses you in her long, multi-point post, which followed yours.


Note to anyone - Please pity the poor, poor wittle Rappyboy. He's feeling put upon lately, what with all those facts disagreeing with what he believes.

"We will never have the elite, smart people on our side." -- Rick "Frothy" Santorum


"Goram it kid, let's frak this thing and go home! Engage!"

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Thursday, October 4, 2012 4:44 PM

JONGSSTRAW


After 6 years here I've learned a few things. One is that this place is ground zero for me to better understand the minds and opinions of liberals and hard-core leftists. It's important for me to know these things. Nowhere else, not even MSNBC, is there a more fervent and passionate display of beliefs or degrees of blind ideology more clear than here.

I don't post much these days because I'm not interested at all in engaging in ridiculous arguments, and I certainly have no interest in responding to the foul names I'm called. Just yesterday someone called me a dipshit and tried to compare me with AuRaptor. Yes I do like AuRaptor, but we Conservatives never or hardly ever band together in any measure like the libs here do. We tend to let our kindred spirits go it alone, opting usually to avoid someone elses fray. I accept that as a reality and the rest just rolls off my back without much ado from me. I get ignored most of the time anyhow, and I like that alot. I know from the past that many people do indeed read my posts, and that is good enough for me. And being called a dipshit merely because I express my opinions is far better than when I was called a fucking steaming pile of go se a while back. It's kind of funny actually.

I advise the folks here to stay here. I suspect there are a lot of ex-posters, now lurkers, who continue to read all the postings. Who knows, you may impact people without ever knowing it. That's still a good thing.









Hmmm, better than Reuben's.
..One more.
Ben!
..My last one.
Okay.

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Friday, October 5, 2012 1:43 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by Jongsstraw:

.. we Conservatives never or hardly ever band together in any measure like the libs here do. We tend to let our kindred spirits go it alone, opting usually to avoid someone elses fray. I accept that as a reality and the rest just rolls off my back without much ado from me. I get ignored most of the time anyhow, and I like that alot. I know from the past that many people do indeed read my posts, and that is good enough for me. And being called a dipshit merely because I express my opinions is far better than when I was called a fucking steaming pile of go se a while back. It's kind of funny actually.



2 points... There clearly is something to this group think mind set,between those on the Left and those who are conservative. I don't know if it's more because of this site, where maybe more sci-fi fans tend to be on the Left, or what. I accept that premise, and will likely pick up on that theme in another thread.

Second, I admit that I tend to over react to those who attack me for merely pointing my views. Being called a racist, for example, because I don't approve of the policies or actions of an individual who happens to have skin which reflects less light than my own is beyond idiotic for so many reasons. Mainly, because it's not true, but also because it's a cheap and gutless dodge of the original issue, intent on dismissing me and my view, out of hand, before any real conversation on the matter can take place. It cheats everyone out of an opportunity to learn.

Quote:



I advise the folks here to stay here. I suspect there are a lot of ex-posters, now lurkers, who continue to read all the postings. Who knows, you may impact people without ever knowing it. That's still a good thing.




I wanted to agree w/ this sentiment, at first. But the more I thought about it, the less optimistic I became with the over all theme. Folks see what they want to see.


" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Friday, October 5, 2012 2:03 AM

M52NICKERSON

DALEK!


Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:
Second, I admit that I tend to over react to those who attack me for merely pointing my views. Being called a racist, for example, because I don't approve of the policies or actions of an individual who happens to have skin which reflects less light than my own is beyond idiotic for so many reasons. Mainly, because it's not true, but also because it's a cheap and gutless dodge of the original issue, intent on dismissing me and my view, out of hand, before any real conversation on the matter can take place. It cheats everyone out of an opportunity to learn.



If someone points out ways your views are flawed it is not an attack, that is how conversations and discussions on matters happen.

Thing is when you or anyone else posts arguments that have been debunked over and over, and try and link bad things that happen to the President it starts to look very personal.

I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.

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Friday, October 5, 2012 2:19 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by m52nickerson:

If someone points out ways your views are flawed it is not an attack, that is how conversations and discussions on matters happen.

Yeah, that's not at all what I'm talking about here. But thanks for the input.

Quote:


Thing is when you or anyone else posts arguments that have been debunked over and over, and try and link bad things that happen to the President it starts to look very personal.



Disagreeing w/ someone isn't 'debunking' their arguments. That's a common theme i see repeated here, time and time again. Just as when someone is wrong about some detail, or in predicting how something will turn out, they're called LIARS, when in fact, there's no lying going on , what so ever. It's bearing false witness, for lack of a better term, for the sole purpose of belittling and dismissing someone who disagrees with your own position.

e.g. : Raptor is against Voter ID laws because he doesn't like the poor, he's racist, he's a xenophobe, etc...

Fact is, I'm 100% FOR voter FRAUD suppression, which is nothing like what is being portrayed by the Left when it comes to protecting the sanctity and legitimacy of our RIGHT to vote.

This is what I'm talking about, in how my views are skewed, by those on the other side, for the sole purpose of painting me as being that which I am not.


" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Friday, October 5, 2012 2:43 AM

M52NICKERSON

DALEK!


Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:
Disagreeing w/ someone isn't 'debunking' their arguments. That's a common theme i see repeated here, time and time again. Just as when someone is wrong about some detail, or in predicting how something will turn out, they're called LIARS, when in fact, there's no lying going on , what so ever. It's bearing false witness, for lack of a better term, for the sole purpose of belittling and dismissing someone who disagrees with your own position.



See this it part of the problem Rappy. I don't know if you make a consious effort to do it or you simply don't see it. I did not claim that disagreeing with someone is debunking or disproving another's arguments. On the same token I have never seen anyone here call you or anyone else a liar when they are pointed out to be wrong on some detail, unless they continue to try and use it in arguments. If you know something is wrong but state it as a fact anyways that is a lie.

Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:
e.g. : Raptor is against Voter ID laws because he doesn't like the poor, he's racist, he's a xenophobe, etc...

Fact is, I'm 100% FOR voter FRAUD suppression, which is nothing like what is being portrayed by the Left when it comes to protecting the sanctity and legitimacy of our RIGHT to vote.

This is what I'm talking about, in how my views are skewed, by those on the other side, for the sole purpose of painting me as being that which I am not.



How many times have you been shown the facts that there is very little voter fraud that goes no at the polling place? How many times have you been shown the even if a group of people activly managed to commit such fraud it would amount to a very few number of votes? I know it has been a few times. You have been shown that the current laws do in fact effect the poor and minorities more than other groups. With all this your only counter is that you are protecting the legitimacy of out right to vote.

You get called those things out of frustration because you are shown that the voter ID laws does not protect the legitimacy of the vote in the end yet you contiune to use that as an arguement. People than conclude that there must be a reason why you do that.

I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.

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Friday, October 5, 2012 2:48 AM

KPO

Sometimes you own the libs. Sometimes, the libs own you.


Quote:

Folks see what they want to see.

Does that include you, or is it just how people on the left behave?

It's not personal. It's just war.

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Friday, October 5, 2012 2:49 AM

WULFENSTAR

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg


HK,

Heheheheheh that is pretty apropos. I don't know what it is about this place, but I tend to become a caricature (on purpose). I think someone else said it, but this site brings out the deepest resentments and frustrations with the "other-side".

I also agree that when people try to have an honest debate, it just spirals downward when folks like Niki, Frem (even my humble self) get involved.

Some people are just too angry, delusional or downright insane to be able to hear the other side.

"None of you seem to understand. I'm not locked in here with you... YOU are locked in here with ME."

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Friday, October 5, 2012 4:06 AM

PEACEKEEPER

Keeping order in every verse


Quote:

Originally posted by Storymark:
Quote:

Originally posted by peacekeeper:
And 20 posts later, my little contribution was not even noted. Which sort of illustrates my point perfectly. Even Dear Niki, who ALWAYS used to at least acknowledge my presence, has passed me over to continue the argument....



No, she didn't. She addresses you in her long, multi-point post, which followed yours.


Note to anyone - Please pity the poor, poor wittle Rappyboy. He's feeling put upon lately, what with all those facts disagreeing with what he believes.

"We will never have the elite, smart people on our side." -- Rick "Frothy" Santorum


"Goram it kid, let's frak this thing and go home! Engage!"

Oh yes, so she did. Well that gives me a warm and fuzzy feeling.Apologies Niki.

With the grace of age, commander, we learn to accept.

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Friday, October 5, 2012 4:08 AM

PEACEKEEPER

Keeping order in every verse


Quote:

Originally posted by peacekeeper:
Quote:

Originally posted by Storymark:
Quote:

Originally posted by peacekeeper:
And 20 posts later, my little contribution was not even noted. Which sort of illustrates my point perfectly. Even Dear Niki, who ALWAYS used to at least acknowledge my presence, has passed me over to continue the argument....



No, she didn't. She addresses you in her long, multi-point post, which followed yours.


Note to anyone - Please pity the poor, poor wittle Rappyboy. He's feeling put upon lately, what with all those facts disagreeing with what he believes.

"We will never have the elite, smart people on our side." -- Rick "Frothy" Santorum


"Goram it kid, let's frak this thing and go home! Engage!"

Oh yes, so she did. Well that gives me a warm and fuzzy feeling.Apologies Niki.

With the grace of age, commander, we learn to accept.



With the grace of age, commander, we learn to accept.

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Friday, October 5, 2012 4:09 AM

PEACEKEEPER

Keeping order in every verse


Sorry Niki, I have just noted your reply.Well that gives me a warm fuzzy feeling.

With the grace of age, commander, we learn to accept.

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Friday, October 5, 2012 6:30 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


PK, you stinker, would I forget YOU?!?! Look back, you missed the part of my post that said
Quote:

Peacekeeper, I'm sad you see it that way; I for one miss you BADLY, not just because I respect and like you, but because I've found since my time on the internet that it's people from other countries and news from other countries which give us really good perspective. It's a shame you feel unwelcome...I'd be tickled PINK if you posted stuff that's going on across the pond, being an admitted anglophile, but also because we get SO wrapped up in our own shit.

Harumph!
And thanx, Mark, for bringing it to his attention

Butcha know I loves 'ya both!
Quote:

we Conservatives never or hardly ever band together in any measure like the libs here do. We tend to let our kindred spirits go it alone, opting usually to avoid someone elses fray

Is he friggin' kidding? Have you not been here, JS, when the righties "pile on", agreeing with one another what go se all liberals/leftists/dems are, how we are the greatest evil known to man, etc., or one of them calling someone on the left a name and others coming in to agree/laugh/explain why that's true? There's a blindness there that rejects the fact that one side does what the other does on your part, I fear. If you were capable of being even slightly objective, you'd see that.

I'm going to try and resist the temptation to respond to Rap's remarks about voter fraud, because I know his mind is totally and completely closed to anything but what he hears on FauxNews and right-wing talk radio. That is the ONLY possible explanation--except the possibility that he does what he does deliberately for some reasons we can't fathom--because, as Nick has explained, "voter fraud" has been debunked; the new voter-suppression laws have been enacted in states where NO VOTER FRAUD has ever been documented, and the new laws would do nothing about the only valid voter fraud is absentee ballots. Attempting to "debate" Rap is an exercise in futility, because what he does is spout talking points, the cling to them for dear life despite facts and figures to the contrary.

That is, however, no excuse for personal insults, of which there are far too many here; and maybe, just maybe, if EITHER side held off from starting up the playground shit, the other side might avoid it too. Hey, I can dream. But that would require Rap and his ilk from making the "all libs are (something evil or ugly)" comments, and same from the other side, which are myriad.

Ahh, the Wulf
Quote:

... it just spirals downward when folks like Niki, Frem...

I will have to point out to the little guy ALL the times righties have BEGUN the downward spiral...and in actuality, I find Mike, Mark, Sig and others FAR quicker to spiral than either Frem or myself. Wulf himself, of course, virtually NEVER refrains from some nasty comment about lefties here or liberals in general which pretty much guarantees the beginning of a downward spiral.

Interestingly enough, seems some on the left are willing to admit that the problem I'm addressing in this thread happens on BOTH SIDES, while it appears those on the right are only able to blame the OTHER SIDE. Says something about the ability to be open minded on each side.

As examples of partisanship and blindness of the statements blaming the other side:

Kiki started off with a reasonable post, with however a snipe at the end:
Quote:

And then of course there is the divide between the RWAs for whom facts are anathema, and the others who believe in their souls that the truth will set you free.

Nobody immediately went after me:
Quote:

Perhaps you should know better than to start a myriad number of highly partisan threads which cause the back and forth you so lament.

Rap "piles on":
Quote:

Rules are different for Leftists, BDN. You should know better by now.

That one in particular is just begging to start a downward spiral; not to mention being totally off topic and unnecessary.

Mark picks up the gauntlet, predictably:
Quote:

Translation: "Waaaaah. They keep expecting me to back my claims with evidence. Those mean libruls. Waaaah."

Rap comes in swinging:
Quote:

See what I mean ? I always DO back my claims w/ evidence, but then there's the inevitable " I don't count right -wing news as being legitimate !" crap. Which is funny, because it accepts the premise that the MSM isn't 'right-wing', so it must be Left-wing, which everyone with a brain KNOWS to be the case, yet some still cling to the delusion that only FOX slants the news towards any political bias, and no one else has been doing so, for decades already.

And it should be noted how you completely ignored BDN's original comment, directed towards Niki. Yeah, best to over look all that, and take yet another swipe at me, huh?


And away we go.

From there on:

Mike picks up on the playground fight and runs with it.

Oonj sees it and comments on it:
Quote:

BDN snipes Niki. Au supports this. Story has to jump on it. Not that y'all have no self-control ... I suspect you'd simply never agree to let those who want to stay on
topic have a clean slate for their discussion.


I come in to laugh at Rap's claims and respond to Nothing's swipe, and to "pile on" by laughing at Rap.

Story "piles on" Rap.
Wulf claims this place would be dead without him.
Several people "pile on" Wulf's remarks.

Nobodystarts out with "Poor Niki", and sees all this as
Quote:

An Auraptor post will immediately be followed by several Kwicko, Storymark, SingyKikiRue posts all piling on while pretty much saying the same thing

I came in to laugh at Wulf's self-aggrandizing comment. defend myself and snark at Nobody.

Oonj kind of "chastizes" ALL of us.

KPO responds to Nobody and disagrees with him.

JS comes in with
Quote:

this place is ground zero for me to better understand the minds and opinions of liberals and hard-core leftists. It's important for me to know these things. Nowhere else, not even MSNBC, is there a more fervent and passionate display of beliefs or degrees of blind ideology more clear than here.

There's the lumping cracks about "all" lefties.

Raptor comes in with what I thought at first was an actual remark about BOTH sides:
Quote:

There clearly is something to this group think mind set,between those on the Left and those who are conservative

The very next sentence I realized he was talking about the left "going after" the right.

He then proceeds to bitch about how he's picked on.

Nick attempts to explain the reality of why Rap's posts get the reaction they do:
Quote:

Thing is when you or anyone else posts arguments that have been debunked over and over, and try and link bad things that happen to the President it starts to look very personal.


Rap fires back with a snark, and complains
Quote:

my views are skewed, by those on the other side, for the sole purpose of painting me as being that which I am not.


Nick again attempts to explain, in part how
Quote:

You get called those things out of frustration


KPO responds to Rap's remark that "Folks see what they want to see" with
Quote:

Does that include you, or is it just how people on the left behave?


Wulf comes in with what starts OUT to be a very valid statement regarding both sides, then degenerates into blaming me and Frem for the downward spiral, with
Quote:

Some people are just too angry, delusional or downright insane to be able to hear the other side.


That's where it is up to this point. I imagine it's impossible, but can anyone actually see all this objectively and see that the SAME THING happens on both sides?

One could claim that Kiki started it with her remark, but it's Nobody (with Raptor "piling on") who begin the actual, personal nastiness, and it goes from there. BOTH SIDES do essentially the same thing when it comes to this, and this is a typical example. Someone on the left will say something, someone on the right will come in to start it. Or someone on the right will write something, and someone on the left will come in to start it.

This thread was initially begun to express my sadness and frustration with BOTH SIDES. I very deliberately didn't blame either side specifically, because I DO blame some on the left just as much as some on the right. Yes, I have chastized those on the left who are most eager to start or enhance the spiral, by name, from time to time. My frustration with the right is mostly because of the outrageous statements they make which I simply cannot equate with reality, like Rap's insistence on the "rightness" (pun intended) of the voter-suppression laws. I'm CERTAINLY as much at fault as anyone else on either side, there is no excuse; but a lot of it comes from the above frustration, and the vituperativeness with which things are phrased. The frustration comes from my love of actual debating, where one side says something; the other side points out (with facts and figures) that what they claimed is wrong, and both sides proceed to debate THE ISSUE civilly. That rarely, if ever, happens here, and I blame some on the left for buying into the taunts and contributing greatly to the downward spiral.

Anyway, that's enuff. I dare anyone on either side to TRY to read the exchanges objectively and TRY to recognize both sides are equally responsible for the way so many threads degenerate the way they do.


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Friday, October 5, 2012 7:08 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by kpo:
BDN, it's possible to have partisan, polarised debates without the sniping and the playground back and forth. That's what most posters come here to do.

Quote:

I notice she only seems to call out one side for the tit for tat (Auraptor, Wulf) while remaining silent regarding the worst culprits, IMHO.

I've heard her call out the left-wing culprits several times.

It's not personal. It's just war.




While I have never - not once, not ever - seen BDN call out his own side.

He's very much like Geezer in that regard.



"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence [sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero

"I was wrong" - Hero, 2012

Mitt Romney, introducing his running mate: "Join me in welcoming the next President of the United States, Paul Ryan!"

Rappy's response? "You're lying, gullible ( believing in some BS you heard on msnbc ) or hard of hearing."

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Friday, October 5, 2012 7:12 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:



Disagreeing w/ someone isn't 'debunking' their arguments. That's a common theme i see repeated here, time and time again. Just as when someone is wrong about some detail, or in predicting how something will turn out, they're called LIARS, when in fact, there's no lying going on , what so ever. It's bearing false witness, for lack of a better term, for the sole purpose of belittling and dismissing someone who disagrees with your own position.




And do you claim to be completely innocent of such behavior yourself?



"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence [sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero

"I was wrong" - Hero, 2012

Mitt Romney, introducing his running mate: "Join me in welcoming the next President of the United States, Paul Ryan!"

Rappy's response? "You're lying, gullible ( believing in some BS you heard on msnbc ) or hard of hearing."

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Friday, October 5, 2012 7:18 AM

BYTEMITE


Quote:

That's where it is up to this point. I imagine it's impossible, but can anyone actually see all this objectively and see that the SAME THING happens on both sides?


*deadpan* Yes.

Although to be fair, Wulf's statement applies to me as well.

Quote:

Some people are just too angry, delusional or downright insane to be able to hear the other side.


Only for me, "other side" means "both sides."

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Friday, October 5, 2012 7:19 AM

BYTEMITE


You guys. You GUYS. Come on.

"But you too" is a logical fallacy and plus this argument about who does what isn't getting anyone anywhere.

I'm going to go on a fall colour drive and buy some hot apple cider. The faults that others pile on us may not be representative of our actual flaws, and we can defend ourselves, but we also have to ask at some point whether it's worth it and how much effort we wish to exert. We all of us are not perfect. Eventually at some point all we can consign ourselves to is to let others think what they want about us.

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Friday, October 5, 2012 8:38 AM

BIGDAMNNOBODY


Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:
While I have never - not once, not ever - seen BDN call out his own side.


And your point is?
Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:
He's very much like Geezer in that regard.


Oh, it was preamble before taking a shot at another poster who is not even involved in this thread.

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Friday, October 5, 2012 10:09 AM

STORYMARK


Quote:

Originally posted by BIGDAMNNOBODY:
Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:
While I have never - not once, not ever - seen BDN call out his own side.


And your point is?



Given that it parallels your (poorly conceived and not true) point - and you don't get it, is pretty damned funny.


Note to anyone - Please pity the poor, poor wittle Rappyboy. He's feeling put upon lately, what with all those facts disagreeing with what he believes.

"We will never have the elite, smart people on our side." -- Rick "Frothy" Santorum


"Goram it kid, let's frak this thing and go home! Engage!"

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