REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

Rumsfeld, Bush approved Iraq torture policy

POSTED BY: GHOULMAN
UPDATED: Saturday, December 11, 2004 07:27
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Tuesday, June 22, 2004 3:42 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Whoa there Jasonzz!

Pretty soon you'll be saying that it's OK to perform elective brain surgery on ppl who don't fit into the social norm. In the FF 'verse, you'd be a blue hand for sure.. except that I don't think they'd take anyone who can be so easily manipulated!

Torture is the infliction of physical harm or pain or emotional/psychic anguish. One favorite form of torture is sleep deprivation... people actually die sooner of sleep deprivation than lack of water, AND it leaves no marks! Another favorite form of torture is to go the the apparent head man of a village, grab one of his younger male grandchildren and start drowning the kid until your conditions are met. If anyone should wonder about the effectiveness of positional torture, one only needs to look at crucifixion. Of course, there's always the standard electric shock, rape, beatings and burnings. And simple household items- cordless drills, phone books, plastic bags- make excellent tools of the trade.

The point, Jasonzz, is that you're not about to shock me (so to speak!) but you ARE putting yourself in league with sociopaths.

Torture has very little to do with extracting information. If you torture someone enough, they'll tell you anything you want to hear just to stop the pain. Of course, it may be made up, so the value of the information is always questionable. There are drugs and other techniques that do a much better job at getting credible information.

Torture DOES have lots to do with intimidation and control. Whether it's a person trying to control his/her significant other through threats or a dictator squeezing an entire country, the effect of torture is to put some heads on pikes at the city gates and keep the opposition down.

BTW you can be guilty of torture AND murder so it's not an either/or case, but if it was "just" a case of tortuer going to far and death was unintended I suppose it would be torture and manslaughter.

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Tuesday, June 22, 2004 4:48 PM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


This is in the UN anti-torture treaty signed by the US in 1994:
http://www.unhchr.ch/html/menu3/b/h_cat39.htm
PART I
Article 1
1. For the purposes of this Convention, the term "torture" means any act by which severe pain or suffering, whether physical or mental, is intentionally inflicted on a person for such purposes as obtaining from him or a third person information or a confession, punishing him for an act he or a third person has committed or is suspected of having committed, or intimidating or coercing him or a third person, or for any reason based on discrimination of any kind, when such pain or suffering is inflicted by or at the instigation of or with the consent or acquiescence of a public official or other person acting in an official capacity. It does not include pain or suffering arising only from, inherent in or incidental to lawful sanctions.
Article 2
2. No exceptional circumstances whatsoever, whether a state of war or a threat of war, internal political in stability or any other public emergency, may be invoked as a justification of torture.

US CODE
http://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/18/pIch113C.html
Sec. 2340. - Definitions
(1)
''torture'' means an act committed by a person acting under the color of law specifically intended to inflict severe physical or mental pain or suffering (other than pain or suffering incidental to lawful sanctions) upon another person within his custody or physical control;

the Geneva Convention
http://www.hrweb.org/legal/cat.html#Article%201.1
Article 50. Grave breaches to which the preceding Article relates shall be those involving any of the following acts, if committed against persons or property protected by the Convention: willful killing, torture or inhuman treatment, including biological experiments, willfully causing great suffering or serious injury to body or health, and extensive destruction and appropriation of property, not justified by military necessity and carried out unlawfully and wantonly.

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Tuesday, June 22, 2004 5:15 PM

JCOBB


Quote:

Originally posted by SigmaNunki:



But, when it comes to news... well... If Fox "news" was here, it'd be comedy. Scary stuff goes on there, and a lot of US citizens watch it claiming it's actually good news *shiver*

----
"Canada being mad at you is like Mr. Rogers throwing a brick through your window." -Jon Stewart, The Daily Show



Quote:

Oh, we have our fair share of idiots here in Canada as well. Every country has them. There are just a lot fewer of them. Plus they tend to be more passive.


Please provide information to substantiate that.

Seriously, I think you are either gravely underestimating the US or supremely overestimating these 'other' countries.

Quote:


But, when it comes to news... well... If Fox "news" was here, it'd be comedy. Scary stuff goes on there, and a lot of US citizens watch it claiming it's actually good news *shiver*



Because it follows a different agenda? If you think the news you are spoon fed is somehow bias free I think you got another thing coming. Its funny, people go and spout bullsh*t off about Fox and then go and get spoonfed whatever news source appeals most to them.

I try to get the most news from a multitude of different, (in both ownership and opinion) sources and try to base my decisions off of that. (Not saying that you do not)

I just realize that if I get my news from one source it might be biased, (as Fox news is) and that if I get it from another it can be just as biased, (BBC or CNN, or CNBC, or Al Jazeera).

I don't care, I'm still free.

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Tuesday, June 22, 2004 5:42 PM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


I do the same thing. I don't come to the same conclusions.

But you yourself admit that any * single * news source, including FOX, is incomplete at a minimum.

And I'm sure you're aware that for the majority of people in the US, 'news' is a half-hour in front of the boob-tube.

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Tuesday, June 22, 2004 6:12 PM

JASONZZZ


Quote:

Originally posted by SignyM:
Whoa there Jasonzz!

Pretty soon you'll be saying that it's OK to perform elective brain surgery on ppl who don't fit into the social norm. In the FF 'verse, you'd be a blue hand for sure.. except that I don't think they'd take anyone who can be so easily manipulated!




I don't know, you are the ones labeling people whether they fit in or not. If you give it a name, I am more than sure someone will come up with the medicine or a fix for it. If you are clever enough about those things or care enough about it - don't give it a name. If you believe that everyone's feelings and thinking are just and correct and really truly know that "to each their own" is the way to live, then don't make "a norm".


Quote:

Originally posted by SignyM:


Torture is the infliction of physical harm or pain or emotional/psychic anguish. One favorite form of torture is sleep deprivation... people actually die sooner of sleep deprivation than lack of water, AND it leaves no marks! Another favorite form of torture is to go the the apparent head man of a village, grab one of his younger male grandchildren and start drowning the kid until your conditions are met. If anyone should wonder about the effectiveness of positional torture, one only needs to look at crucifixion. Of course, there's always the standard electric shock, rape, beatings and burnings. And simple household items- cordless drills, phone books, plastic bags- make excellent tools of the trade.




That's a mixed bag of stuff. You all are lumping a whole bunch of stuff and calling it torture. I suppose a simple "nyah, nyah, nyah" taunting or the Monday morning blues is torture too. People who don't get their StarBucks in the morning are also undergoing emotional distress - yeah, those pussies are also undergoing torture. The fact is, the world is filled with this stuff in various forms and shape. The Fat, Dumb, and happy "Western cultured" people of the world's got it made, they can make themselves feel that you can just legislate all of this crap away. Yeah, keep repeating that to yourselves until some real psychopath creeps up to you in a dark parking lot some where and do something. It's real, it's out there, it's not going away. Call it torture, call it what you will. The soft belly of the society will always be the prey.

So, you named a whole bunch of stuff and called it torture. okay. now what?

Quote:

Originally posted by SignyM:


The point, Jasonzz, is that you're not about to shock me (so to speak!) but you ARE putting yourself in league with sociopaths.




Sociopaths? Thanks for the diagnosis. It would have cost me thousands of dollars and countless hours laying in a couch to be called a mixed bag of nuts. Whew! Now I know. Thanks, no need for arguments. Forget about the debate. We'll just give each other fantasy labels and move on. Haken should just dump this entire forum thing and turn it into a bunch of selection lists of labels for each other. Everyday, we can just post up a bunch of titles for ideas and then start picking labels for each other.

Quote:

Originally posted by SignyM:


Torture has very little to do with extracting information. If you torture someone enough, they'll tell you anything you want to hear just to stop the pain. Of course, it may be made up, so the value of the information is always questionable. There are drugs and other techniques that do a much better job at getting credible information.




If you ask them the wrong questions, they will give you the wrong answers. We've all known this since the dumb ass sons-of-bitches social workers started cohersing little kids into fingering their adult caretakers as child-molesting demons. The fact is, different people and different situations require different techniques. The dumb unskilled sons-of-bitches rely on the same old drill (no pun intended, oh wait, maybe I did) every single time. Some nuts are tougher to crack. Some you just have to ask nicely.

Quote:

Originally posted by SignyM:


Torture DOES have lots to do with intimidation and control. Whether it's a person trying to control his/her significant other through threats or a dictator squeezing an entire country, the effect of torture is to put some heads on pikes at the city gates and keep the opposition down.




The entire world is about manipulation, intimidation, control in one way or another. We all want to achieve some set of goals and we manipulate the environment around us to get our results. No matter what you do, some people are going to be unhappy and call it "torture" or some other thing. There are people who think that speaking roughly to a tomatoe plant is being unkind. If you live your entire lives letting others draw the lines for you, you'll never get anything done.

Quote:

Originally posted by SignyM:


BTW you can be guilty of torture AND murder so it's not an either/or case, but if it was "just" a case of tortuer going to far and death was unintended I suppose it would be torture and manslaughter.



I never said it was either or, but you just can't mix them up. Killing someone is killing them. Murder is killing. Torture is not killing. Torture is the process, if someone ends up dying, you've killed them. Hey, it looks like we are in agreement.



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Tuesday, June 22, 2004 6:21 PM

JCOBB


Quote:

Originally posted by rue:

And I'm sure you're aware that for the majority of people in the US, 'news' is a half-hour in front of the boob-tube.



Erm, try the majority of the people, period.

I mean, do you really think that people in Spain, or France, or Britian, or Canada, are somehow more news savvy because of their geographical location?

Maybe you don't intentionally want to bash the US... just because, but from how it sounds you just love making (baseless?) generalizations. Please, feel free to prove me wrong.

I don't care, I'm still free.

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Tuesday, June 22, 2004 6:34 PM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


I lived half my life on one US border, and the other half (so far) living on the other.

I did, and do, compare news on an ongoing basis. And internet scanning at least 20 news sources every day (various countries, political positions) is a mental aberration I have. I keep thinking facts do count for something. But maybe I'm just deluded ...

Anyway, I've found US 'world' news is significantly impoverished of facts and significantly slanted to government news releases, compared to world news from elsewhere. I have done the headline-comparison thing with urls long-term for another group of people. But it's too much work to reproduce it here. In any case, I suspect it really doesn't matter what I do or don't post.

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Tuesday, June 22, 2004 6:52 PM

JCOBB


Well, I am sure that means you can accurately speak for the entire US, (and all its news services) and for the rest of the world to boot.

Come now, you can make all the generalizations you want, and I am sure it might even give you, (this is purely a guess) a feeling of empowerment. You are better then those other lowly beings because you have the time to dedicate to looking at other online sources. However, that just as easily may not be the case.

Anyways, I think I find the ideas of, "news ...significantly impoverished of facts and significantly slanted to government news releases," as fairly subjective, if not based purely upon opinion, not facts. Again, if you have read all the news papers from coast to coast (not to mention local television stations), and all the news sources in the US, and then have done a comparison to all the new sources in all the other countries in the world, then done an examination, (thorough and unbiased) of the number of people in all the countries, (or to make your job easier, modern countries) and the ammount of time the populice spends on examining various news sources, then feel free to make generalizations.

I have significant doubts as to whether or not you have done this, and as such I do find your gross overgeneralizations a tad bit.. callous.

I will try to refrain from doing so, (and if I do, please call me on it) and would appreciate it if you tried to refrain from doing so in the future.

I don't care, I'm still free.

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Tuesday, June 22, 2004 7:36 PM

SIGMANUNKI


Quote:

Originally posted by JCobb:
Please provide information to substantiate that.

Seriously, I think you are either gravely underestimating the US or supremely overestimating these 'other' countries.


I am Canadian and I have lived in the US. I know a number of idiots here and just about all that I met down there was a moron. And those who weren't morons were pretty much all immigrants or those there on a visa.

I have been to Scotland, England and Germany and the people in all those countries crush those in the US when it comes to intellect (generally speaking of course).

Sorry, but there are things to be said about the state of the public education systems in these countries and I won't even get into how ruined the US's is.


Quote:

Originally posted by JCobb:
Because it follows a different agenda? If you think the news you are spoon fed is somehow bias free I think you got another thing coming. Its funny, people go and spout bullsh*t off about Fox and then go and get spoonfed whatever news source appeals most to them.

I try to get the most news from a multitude of different, (in both ownership and opinion) sources and try to base my decisions off of that. (Not saying that you do not)

I just realize that if I get my news from one source it might be biased, (as Fox news is) and that if I get it from another it can be just as biased, (BBC or CNN, or CNBC, or Al Jazeera).


I get my news from the local news papers, the CBC (CBC Sunday mostly), BBC and my friends tell what are in others around the world (can't remember the exact web sites). Plus my German wife tells me what is going on in the German media and she reads multiple papers from there. So, I think that I'm pretty well informed.

But, as for Fox "news". *When* I lived in the US I watched it for a bit and they blatantly omit data to the point where they are lying. I'll provide a case.

Remember those British documents way back in the beginning of the invasion of Iraq that turned out to be based on somebodies thesis? I do, and when the BBC reported on the British governments findings they stated that one document was fine, no foul play involved. But the other one (the one the controversy was all about) was found to have a lot of foul play involved.

Now after hearing that on BBC World when I was channel surfing, I came across a Fox "news" report that stated that the Brits had completed there investigation into *the* document and they had found no foul play. That ended the report.

Now technically they didn't lie. But, this report is *very* misleading. They didn't state that there were two documents and that the one they were referring to wasn't the controversial one. But, of course, that would just screw up there agenda, right? Therefore, lying by omission.


Also, the Daily Show had a "journalist" from Fox "news" on. This "journalist" from Fox "news" actually said that there is the wrong opinion (referring to Al Jazeera) and then the right one (referring to Fox "news"). This isn't exactly anything resembling any attempt at a non-bias mentality, eh?


And no, I don't watch the BBC because it goes along with my "agenda". They've said things on there that I definitely disagreed with. I watch it because it is, IMHO, the most balanced news show on the air. And I know that there are better ones out there. But, I only speak english so I can't watch them.


Lastly, stop trying to put words in my mouth. I never stated that the BBC was bias free. And never assume something that you have no basis for. I refer to the first paragraph quoted just above.

----
"Canada being mad at you is like Mr. Rogers throwing a brick through your window." -Jon Stewart, The Daily Show

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Tuesday, June 22, 2004 7:58 PM

JCOBB


Erm, yeah, the Daily Show...

They have NO agenda what-so-ever. And EVERYTHING they report is taken in the most absolutely serious manner possible. Checked, double checked, and checked again.

I remember one episode where they had a mayor of Evansville Indiana, (IIRC) say he went to a Cher concert, and then it showed what the mayor was thinking, and it turned out to BE the Cher concert.

Its amazing technology they have at the Daily Show.

And, I find that when you are visiting another country, (be it on vacation, or whatever) you would tend to go to areas where people have a similar intellectual, (or at least comparable) level. I highly doubt you got into a "deep" philosophical discussion with random bum 1, (see script) in Scotland. Or with passing lady in Germany, (also see script). The idea that this cursory, "I went there so I am qualified to speak on the intelligence there," is more then a little absurd. Perhaps you have done indepth research, and by no means do I think that the US is the loftiest epitome of intelligence, that is most certainly not the case. I just think that it is easy to take a cursory glance of a country you have visited briefly, (say you visited friends, or went to more upstyle establishments, or whatever) then to compare it to a country you have lived all your life, seen the sad underbelly, and have seen the good and the bad. (In my experience the bad seems to stick out more prominately).

Also, I don't want to tout Fox News as an exceptional source for unbiased news, but nor would I consider BBC the most unbiased news source either. I am sure you can find cases from most any news organization where they have done faulty or dodgy reporting. I think the most obvious reasons people "pick" on Fox is because its agenda is so perpendicular to their own.

Nor, while we are talking about putting words in each other mouth's, did I say anything about Fox being unbiased. In fact, I destinctly remember saying quite the opposite.

And, while we are on the subject, can I direct you to read what you quoted me saying.

"I try to get the most news from a multitude of different, (in both ownership and opinion) sources and try to base my decisions off of that. (Not saying that you do not)"

Pay close attention to the (Not saying that you do not) part.

EDIT

Not to be a pain in the ass, still waiting for substantiatable information on how other people are more intelligent, (or informed, I forget which you said) then those geographically based in the US.

I don't care, I'm still free.

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Tuesday, June 22, 2004 8:46 PM

HKCAVALIER


Oh jeez, JCobb, what are you doing? You're like one of the cool, thoughtful moderate people on thsi sight, but you're kinda heading for the deep end and I'm afraid you might just go off it, if you don't come back.

This ain't no court o' law and none of us are writing news articles that have to be fact-checked. Somebody lives in the U.S., or lives in Canada and visits the U.S., and gets a feeling for the way people are there and then goes overseas and has a very different experience: "Whoa, people over here are much more [fill in the blank] than people in the U.S." There ain't nothing invalid about that.

It's called anecdotal evidence. It's the basis of the gorram scientific method, fer gosh sakes! Find what you consider a representative sample, make a hypothesis and see if it's borne out. People share such experiences online and hear what other people have to say on the subject. This process can result in a person being better informed than they were before.

Seriously, you're being all kinds of pedantic, demanding "evidence" for a personal observation. All the evidence anybody needs is their own eyes. And just because it's based solely on personal experience doesn't make it an opinion. If I saw ten people walk past my window in the last hour, it ain't an opinion, it is an observation. If all kinds of random Europeans are dazzling me with their knowledge of current events, while the folks back home all just grunted, well, that's what I observed. If you don't believe me, fine, but if you ask me for proof, I'm just gonna look at you funny.

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

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Tuesday, June 22, 2004 9:56 PM

JCOBB


Quote:

Originally posted by HKCavalier:
Oh jeez, JCobb, what are you doing? You're like one of the cool, thoughtful moderate people on thsi sight, but you're kinda heading for the deep end and I'm afraid you might just go off it, if you don't come back.

This ain't no court o' law and none of us are writing news articles that have to be fact-checked. Somebody lives in the U.S., or lives in Canada and visits the U.S., and gets a feeling for the way people are there and then goes overseas and has a very different experience: "Whoa, people over here are much more [fill in the blank] than people in the U.S." There ain't nothing invalid about that.

It's called anecdotal evidence. It's the basis of the gorram scientific method, fer gosh sakes! Find what you consider a representative sample, make a hypothesis and see if it's borne out. People share such experiences online and hear what other people have to say on the subject. This process can result in a person being better informed than they were before.

Seriously, you're being all kinds of pedantic, demanding "evidence" for a personal observation. All the evidence anybody needs is their own eyes. And just because it's based solely on personal experience doesn't make it an opinion. If I saw ten people walk past my window in the last hour, it ain't an opinion, it is an observation. If all kinds of random Europeans are dazzling me with their knowledge of current events, while the folks back home all just grunted, well, that's what I observed. If you don't believe me, fine, but if you ask me for proof, I'm just gonna look at you funny.

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.



I have found the mark of an idiot would be one that takes blithering at face value and does not seek deeper analysis.

Its very easy to group everyone into a single group, then make sweeping generalizations based off of a few select examples. Its also easy for people to put on a smug, superior attitude, purely based off of geographical location. (I know more purely because I am from France, or Britian, or Canada, and your arguments are null and void because you happen to be located in the US.) I suppose I just got sick of several posts where certain people just brushed other people off because they were "American"(again this might not nessecarily be you SIGMANUNKI or Rue, or you Cavalier).

That really grates on me.

Plus, if there is scientific evidence proving that Americans are retarded, I would love to see it. Would make my debates with some of my fellow brethren much easier.

Anyways, glad I am not coming across as a TOTAL ass in all my posts Cavalier, I suppose thats the least I can do.



EDIT

Oh, and if it is just a personal observation, that is one thing. It is another to then take that observation and apply that everyone, or even the majority of people are that way, be it an intelligent European, or a dumbass American.

I know I wouldn't make any judgements unless I had met the majority of peoples. Maybe I am weird like that.

I don't care, I'm still free.

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Wednesday, June 23, 2004 7:14 AM

SIGMANUNKI


JCobb:
First off that interview with the Fox "news" "journalist" was on the show sitting right in front of Jon. So, the chances for funny stuff going on is minimal. I do understand your doubting it though, as there antics on *taped* interviews can be quite humorous. But, this was not one of them. He was a guest on the show.


When you go to another country you *do* get the feeling of those that are in it. That is, if you go "off the beaten path" to the non-tourist attractions. *Which I did*. In fact when I went to Germany I stayed in my wife's apartment far from anything touristy.

I'll say at this point that I found the Europeans to be far more intelligent and I won't get into how nice they where. Because the people on the street in Germany certainly (in my experience, though the wife doesn't agree) were not nice. The only friendly people there were her family and her families friends. Joe Shmo on the street was not.

That being said, I did live in the US for some time and have visited many parts of the country. I got that same "everybody's intelligence around me is room temperature" feeling no matter where I went.

Intelligent people will always have that spark in there eye. There eyes kind of shine in a certain way. On the other hand, people who are of intelligence lacking, have a dull stare typically with there mouth open. The latter is the type of person I ran into most in the states. In fact, I ran into them with frightening frequency ie every time I went out and where every I went.

So then, when I was down in the US, if I was going to be hanging out in areas with those of people of my intellectual level, how was I completely confounded at the atrocities that surrounded me? /And I was in a university town./ Quite a sad state of affairs indeed

I'll note at this point that there will be exceptions to the rule. After all, if that wasn't the case then I'd not be here right now, as most of the people here are Americans. ie I'm not anti-American, I'm anti-stupid. It just so happens that in my /experience/ pretty much all the Americans I have met are... well, you get the idea.

Another example. My wife was walking around wearing the sweater from the local university. So, it had University of ? on it in *big* letters right on the front. Some guy walked up to her and said, that's a great sweater, where'd you get it?

It has nothing to do with geographic location as such. But, it has everything to do with the culture in that country. And the US has a very violent culture that doesn't respect education. When I grew up I was taught that education is a must, education is to be respected and that I should go to school.

The US on the other hand doesn't care about education. eg California, when they first started the cuts to balance the budget, cut education first. There are other examples indeed, but, I won't get into that. This thread has already gone somewhat OT.

And here, 48 Nobel laureates refer to Bush's anti- science ways:
http://wireservice.wired.com/wired/story.asp?section=Breaking&storyId=
882094&tw=wn_wire_story

The letter:
http://www.johnkerry.com/pressroom/files/2004_0621_letter.html


And news agencies that have an agenda that is so clear and obvious shouldn't be allowed to call themselves a news agency. The whole point of being a news agency is that you try to be as objective as possible. But, whenever I see something from Fox "news" it *always*, *without exception*, has the foul stench of manipulation on it. I cannot respect that in the slightest.


And my substantial information on people from other countries being more informed than those in the US is *talking to people from other countries*. My substantial information of people from other countries being more intelligent than those in the US is the same.

And when I say more intelligent and better informed, I'm not saying that they go along with what I think or that if they're a prick then they're just an idiot. I say these things because they can follow a logical path and state supporting evidence in a calm discussion about politics, etc. ie I got into in with Ruxton on the gun issue. Now we very much disagree on the issue and I do find him quite abrasive. But, I also find him a very well informed, intelligent man (woman?).

But, I've spent too much time on this as it is. Back to work.

----
"Canada being mad at you is like Mr. Rogers throwing a brick through your window." -Jon Stewart, The Daily Show

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Wednesday, June 23, 2004 8:06 AM

JCOBB


Okay, I just happen to disagree.

I've done my fair bit of traveling and have found idiots everywhere. I have found more American's that can put up a good discussion, (nevermind Jay Leno's Jaywalkers) then I have found Canadians, Mexicans, Germans, or English(women)men.

What was it, 90% of Britons, (or some ungodly high number) couldn't find Iraq on a map, a higher number then their American counterparts, I think the Swedes got the highest, only 70% of people there couldn't locate Iraq.

As far as education is concerned, I can't complain. I have been through the public education system, and I think I have gotten a very good, well rounded education. That might be because I made a personal decision to challenge myself, but then again, so did my classmates. Do I think that more of an emphasis should be placed on education, absolutely. Does that mean that your average Britian is brighter then your average American. I dunno, haven't seen evidence about it. I have visited Britian and Germany, and even in the area's I have visited for fun, (I would like to think I chose higher brow locales) I have not been impressed with the intelligence of the people there. Often they would have what, at first glance, seems to be a good strong grasp of world events, but after some further discussion it turned out to be nothing more then superficial polish thrown like so much rice at a wedding.

Regardless, I have not been impressed with intelligence in general.

EDIT

As far as what some scientists think, I can make up my mind on my own, thank you very much. I also am not one to think that scientists can't be as liberal or conservative as you or me. I think a mistake many people make is raising scientists to a "God" like level, (again, not nessecarily you) and then assume that they can not succumb to the same problems that you or I can.

I don't care, I'm still free.

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Wednesday, June 23, 2004 9:45 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


SignyM Whoa there Jasonzz!
Pretty soon you'll be saying that it's OK to perform elective brain surgery on ppl who don't fit into the social norm. In the FF 'verse, you'd be a blue hand for sure.. except that I don't think they'd take anyone who can be so easily manipulated!

Jasonzz: I don't know, you are the ones labeling people whether they fit in or not. If you give it a name, I am more than sure someone will come up with the medicine or a fix for it. If you are clever enough about those things or care enough about it - don't give it a name. If you believe that everyone's feelings and thinking are just and correct and really truly know that "to each their own" is the way to live, then don't make "a norm".

SignyM: Yes... but not two paragraphs down you say "The Fat, Dumb, and happy "Western cultured" people of the world's got it made, they can make themselves feel that you can just legislate all of this crap away." It seems to me that YOU are creating a "norm", or at least a "preferred". In any case you're certainly name-calling!

--------------------------------
SignyM: Torture is the infliction of physical harm or pain or emotional/psychic anguish. One favorite form of torture is sleep deprivation... people actually die sooner of sleep deprivation than lack of water, AND it leaves no marks! Another favorite form of torture is to go the the apparent head man of a village, grab one of his younger male grandchildren and start drowning the kid until your conditions are met. If anyone should wonder about the effectiveness of positional torture, one only needs to look at crucifixion. Of course, there's always the standard electric shock, rape, beatings and burnings. And simple household items- cordless drills, phone books, plastic bags- make excellent tools of the trade.

Jasonzz: That's a mixed bag of stuff. You all are lumping a whole bunch of stuff and calling it torture...

SignyM It's all exquisitely painful, I assure you.

Jasonzz ... I suppose a simple "nyah, nyah, nyah" taunting or the Monday morning blues is torture too. People who don't get their StarBucks in the morning are also undergoing emotional distress - yeah, those pussies are also undergoing torture...

SignyM What ARE you going on about? That I'm somehow blind to what torture is? That I have no idea how painful it can be? Only someone who has NO idea of torture would equate crucifixion with not getting their Starbucks coffee in the ayem. I THINK you're trying to sound like you "really know" and nobody else does, but you just undercut your own argument terribly.

Jasonzz The fact is, the world is filled with this stuff in various forms and shape. The Fat, Dumb, and happy "Western cultured" people of the world's got it made, they can make themselves feel that you can just legislate all of this crap away. Yeah, keep repeating that to yourselves until some real psychopath creeps up to you in a dark parking lot some where and do something....

SignyM Actually, Ive had this happen to me... twice. You're not telling me anything I don't know.

Jasonzz... It's real, it's out there, it's not going away. Call it torture, call it what you will. The soft belly of the society will always be the prey.

SignyM Again, what are you trying to say? That torture will always exist? That everyone is blind except you? That you PREFER a world in which torture is accepted because you'd like to use it yourself? Spit it out man! Tell me what you're REALLY thinking!

------------------------------


SignyMThe point, Jasonzz, is that you're not about to shock me (so to speak!) but you ARE putting yourself in league with sociopaths.

Jasonnzz Sociopaths? Thanks for the diagnosis. It would have cost me thousands of dollars and countless hours laying in a couch to be called a mixed bag of nuts. Whew! Now I know...

SignyM AND, you got it for free! Here's the definition of sociopath: Someone who manipulates others without empathy, remorse, or a conscience. (See below on your view of "manipulating the environment"= torturing people")

Jasonzz .... Thanks, no need for arguments. Forget about the debate. We'll just give each other fantasy labels....

SignyM. Like Fat, Dumb, and happy???


------------------------------
SignyM: Torture has very little to do with extracting information. If you torture someone enough, they'll tell you anything you want to hear just to stop the pain. Of course, it may be made up, so the value of the information is always questionable. There are drugs and other techniques that do a much better job at getting credible information.


JasonzzIf you ask them the wrong questions, they will give you the wrong answers....

SignyM Tell me now, Jasonzz, when you're causing excruciating (comes from the word crucifix) pain, do you really think there are any RIGHT questions??? Even something as innoccuous and non-leading as "Tell me about yourself" will be answered incorrectly with continued application of pain.

-----------------------------
SignyM: Torture DOES have lots to do with intimidation and control. Whether it's a person trying to control his/her significant other through threats or a dictator squeezing an entire country, the effect of torture is to put some heads on pikes at the city gates and keep the opposition down.

Jasonzz The entire world is about manipulation, intimidation, control in one way or another. We all want to achieve some set of goals and we manipulate the environment around us to get our results. No matter what you do, some people are going to be unhappy and call it "torture" or some other thing. There are people who think that speaking roughly to a tomatoe plant is being unkind. If you live your entire lives letting others draw the lines for you, you'll never get anything done.

SignyM The lines have already been drawn. There are laws that define in detail what torture is and is not. You seem intent on erasing them by blurring the distinction between minor annoyance and severe pain, between "manipulating the environment" and torturing people. Jasonzz, they are not the same no matter how often you say "Well, they're all on the same spectrum!" Since you seem to intent on justifying torture I have to wonder about your motivation.!

----------------------------
Jasonzz I never said it was either or, but you just can't mix them up. Killing someone is killing them. Murder is killing. Torture is not killing. Torture is the process, if someone ends up dying, you've killed them. Hey, it looks like we are in agreement.

SignyM I hate to get all legalistic about it, but murder is killing someone with intent, manslaughter is killing someone by accident. If you're torturing someone for fun and you don't want any witnesses and you kill your victim, that's murder. If you're torturing someone for information and you accidentally kill them that's manslaughter.



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Wednesday, June 23, 2004 10:05 AM

BARNSTORMER


The following is an interesting look at the "non kneejerk radical" end of the Arab media spectrums take on the Abu Garaib fiasco.......

by Steven Stalinsky.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Responding to the Abu Ghraib controversy, several Arab journalists have noted that the actions of a handful of Americans pale in comparison to what occurs daily inside Arab prisons. This has led to articles in the Arab media calling on Arab leaders to end human-rights violations within their own prisons.

Egyptian President Hosni Mubarak described Abu Ghraib as "abhorrent and sickening, and against all human values and human rights." But as Yusri Fatyan wrote in the Egyptian paper Al Arabi on
May 23: "Frankly, what happens in Egypt doesn't differ much from what happens in Iraq's prisons... So that we don't get a surprise when foreign organizations start talking about some of our police stations, like Helwan, Al Sahel, Bilqas, and others."

Another Egyptian journalist, Muhamad Ali Al Farra, wrote in the Islamist paper Al Shab: "Some Arab rulers have practiced torture on people which no one would believe, and even finishing with tortured bodies by burning them in acid, so how could such rulers condemn torture of Iraqi prisoners? Who is going to throw stones at others when his own house is made of glass?"

Saleh Bin Humaid, chairman of the Saudi Shoura Council, called the Abu Ghraib abuses "hideous scenes of human-rights violations." This, despite the fact that Saudi prisoners have almost no legal rights, and that their punishments are based on Islamic law -- including the severing of fingers and hands for stealing, and beheadings for drug-dealing.

Syrian Minister for Expatriate Affairs Buthayna Shaban, who recently returned from a trip to the U.S., wrote in Al-Sharq Al-Awsat on February 18, 2004: "The pictures that one lone soldier managed to smuggle out of the Abu Ghraib prison aroused revulsion and condemnation in the world, because of the extent of the contempt for human dignity and fundamental human rights -- particularly on the part of the forces that claimed [they had crossed] the oceans to rescue the Iraqi people from the inhumane actions [by the Saddam regime] and to bring freedom and democracy... It is the American administration's supercilious view of the Arabs and Muslims, particularly after the events of September 11, and the racist campaign against Islam and the Muslims in Europe... that leads to crimes of this kind."

Ahmad Jarallah, editor-in-chief of the Kuwaiti daily Al-Siyassa and noted critic of the Syrian regime, responded in an editorial: "Dr. Buthayna Shaban, who is 'revolted'... should be the last to express her revulsion -- because the kinds of torture carried out in the prisons of the regime of which she is a part and in whose services she acts are too numerous to count. No atrocity surpasses the kinds of torment and torture [in the Syrian regime]... We have gone overboard in our talk of the Abu Ghraib torture scandal... None has dared acknowledge that the U.S. behaved properly in uncovering [this] scandal, for having sufficient courage to apologize. It could have remained silent, or denied it -- as is the custom of some Arab regimes that torture, assassinate, bury alive, rip out fingernails, and dissolve [people] in pits of acid, and appear before the world like innocent children with angels' wings."

Other Arab journalists have recognized that U.S. actions in Iraq are not based on any sinister plans and that, while the U.S. has made mistakes, it has done more for Iraqis than any Arab state. On the liberal Arabic website Elaph.com, Syrian columnist Hayan Nayouf wrote: "After the scandal of the torture of Iraqi prisoners by American and British soldiers, the Arab media handled this affair in a way arousing ridicule, proving that the Arab media and intellectuals possess everything but objectivity, transparency, and disclosure of the truth and the facts... The American president, the president of the most powerful country in the world... apologized for the deeds of the American soldiers, and all the Americans also apologized for this shameful deed. And then the Arab intellectuals came, with their mocking, idiotic, and illogical media, and ridiculed this apology. The question arises whether Saddam or any other Arab leader [ever] apologized. Did Saddam apologize to the Iraqi people for burying a million Iraqis in the ground, for expelling millions of Iraqis, for murdering innocents in his prisons, for his crimes in neighboring countries, for invading Kuwait, and for murdering the Kuwaiti prisoners?"

Since the fall of Saddam's regime, much has been revealed about what transpired within his prisons. The treatment of prisoners went far beyond the terrible incidents of humiliation and the beatings that occurred at the hands of Americans in Abu Ghraib. Iraqi human-rights activist Ibrahim Al Idrissi, the president of the Association for Free Prisoners, an Iraqi NGO, has documented the execution of 147,000 political prisoners under Saddam's regime. Idrissi recounted one incident in which a woman was raped by twelve men, and then had her unborn child cut from her stomach. He told Lebanon's The Daily Star on May 24 that U.S. abuse in Iraqi prisons was a "joke" compared to what was endured under Saddam's regime.




Steven Stalinsky is executive director of the Middle East Media Research Institute

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Wednesday, June 23, 2004 12:01 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


According to this article, the biggest effect that the United States had resulted from what we did RIGHT (exposing, investigating, apologizing for torture) not because of what we did WRONG (setting the legal and reporting structure under which torture occured). By this logic, if we did even more "right" we would have an even bigger impact.

However... I'm not sure about the article's accuracy of the Mideast "street" or American nobility. And if we tried to put the assumptions into practice we may STILL not be able to win the hearts and minds of Iraqis.

Except that a soldier smuggled out photos and gave them to the media, the entire problem would probably still be going on while the "investigation" ground on interminably. And even if the torture was stopped, it would have never been admitted, much less apologized for. The administration got caught with its pants down, period, and the quoted journalists (mostly Kuwaitis and Egyptians) who make such a big deal about US honesty are so far off the mark that it throws doubt on everything else that they say.

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Wednesday, June 23, 2004 12:07 PM

JCOBB


Quote:

Originally posted by SignyM:
According to this article, the biggest effect that the United States had resulted from what we did RIGHT (exposing, investigating, apologizing for torture) not because of what we did WRONG (setting the legal and reporting structure under which torture occured). By this logic, if we did even more "right" we would have an even bigger impact.

However... I'm not sure about the article's accuracy of the Mideast "street" or American nobility. And if we tried to put the assumptions into practice we may STILL not be able to win the hearts and minds of Iraqis.

Except that a soldier smuggled out photos and gave them to the media, the entire problem would probably still be going on while the "investigation" ground on interminably. And even if the torture was stopped, it would have never been admitted, much less apologized for. The administration got caught with its pants down, period, and the quoted journalists (mostly Kuwaitis and Egyptians) who make such a big deal about US honesty are so far off the mark that it throws doubt on everything else that they say.



Do you think, (in all seriousness) that we haven't done any good over in Iraq? I think the media often grabs the worst of what happens in Iraq, but rarely if ever focuses on the good. I have seen letters from soldiers with pictures of them working side by side with Iraqi's to build schools, to distrubute water and food to refugees, all sorts of marvelous and wonderful things. I think far too often the worst of things are reported and expounded upon, and it leaves a bitter taste in my mouth, knowing full well that there are good people over there making a difference.

I don't care, I'm still free.

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Wednesday, June 23, 2004 1:21 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


I think the enlisted men and women are doing some good. Unfortunately, the administration screwed up a LOT starting with completely violating the Powell Doctrine and moving on to assuming how poular we'd be, grossly underestimating troop requirements, disbanding the entire Iraqi army, allowing complete breakdown of security. It could have been retrieved at many points along the way- bringing in respected moderate clerics and their militias, reforming the Iraqi regular army (not the Fedayeen) etc. Now it's at a point where it doesn't seem to matter to the Iraqis WHAT we do. A NYTimes columnist made a very prophetic statement right after our apparent victory, and it went something like- If the water doesn't flow and the electricity doesn't come on and the rain don't fall and the sun don't shine, it's all our fault (at least in the eyes if the Iraqis). I think that's where we are, and well-meaning troops just can't make up for boondoggles at the top. I'm pissed off as all hell at the administration for screwing EVERYTHING up.

I wasn't in favor of the war. Months and months before the actual invasion, everyone was telling me it was all about WMD and I kept saying it was all about the oil... and I still do. But if we're going to inavde, at least don't leave the troops hanging out to dry.

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Wednesday, June 23, 2004 1:40 PM

JCOBB


Well, then I respectfully disagree.

You say its one disaster after another, and I see what years ago would have been insurmountable progress.

I don't care, I'm still free.

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Wednesday, June 23, 2004 1:51 PM

SIGMANUNKI


Quote:

Originally posted by JCobb:

As far as education is concerned, I can't complain. I have been through the public education system, and I think I have gotten a very good, well rounded education. That might be because I made a personal decision to challenge myself, but then again, so did my classmates.



I went through public school as well, but finished about a decade ago. Unfortunately, the people that are going through now aren't getting taught things that I did. The teachers are taking things out of the curriculum and not putting things in to fill the gap. The whole system is being "dumbed down". It's depressing to have friends that are teachers that tell me these things.

And this isn't just happening in Canada, it's happening all over the world I think that it'll be time soon for me to do something about that.

Also, people don't really challenge themselves anymore. After all, they're them right? The kids today are far too arrogant. Goes along with that "me attitude" that I'm seeing more and more of as time goes on.


Quote:

Originally posted by JCobb:

Does that mean that your average Britian is brighter then your average American. I dunno, haven't seen evidence about it.



Well, when it comes to education, all it does is give the opportunity for people to achieve there *potential*.

For instance, my parents neighbors have a *very* bright young girl that could grow up to do some amazing things, but, will she? No, the parents get drunk regularly and of course the next morning they'll not be able to drive her to school. It is an unfortunate state of affairs.

So, IMHO, it doesn't really matter how much potential the kid has, if (s)he is treated like an idiot then they'll grow up to be one. The only exception is if the child has and untold amount of drive and goes to learn on his/her own. I did the latter as my school wasn't exactly challenging.


Quote:

Originally posted by JCobb:
As far as what some scientists think, I can make up my mind on my own, thank you very much. I also am not one to think that scientists can't be as liberal or conservative as you or me. I think a mistake many people make is raising scientists to a "God" like level, (again, not nessecarily you) and then assume that they can not succumb to the same problems that you or I can.


True, scientists can succumb to the same problems and us, they are after all human, and as such prone to error just like the rest of us.

But, these are some of the best and brightest among us today. So, one really should look at what they are saying and give it a good thought. After all, these people by profession are trained to think and be highly critical.

I guess this all gets chalked up to what we've both experienced. Which it seems clear that we've both experienced different things.

So, let's agree to disagree as I don't think that this discussion will lead to any good places from this point forward.

*extends hand to shake hands with JCobb*

----
"Canada being mad at you is like Mr. Rogers throwing a brick through your window." -Jon Stewart, The Daily Show

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Wednesday, June 23, 2004 3:32 PM

JCOBB


*shakes hand warmly*

Like I said, I don't have anything against you, or probably anyone on this board.

Just so long as you don't vote somebody into office that will infringe on my rights, and I don't vote somebody into office that will infringe on yours, I think we could get along smashingly.


I don't care, I'm still free.

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Wednesday, June 23, 2004 3:36 PM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


What I get from some postings is that Hussein is the proposed standard by which the US should be judged.

That's setting one's standards very, very low.

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Wednesday, June 23, 2004 3:49 PM

SIGMANUNKI


Quote:

Originally posted by JCobb:
*shakes hand warmly*

Like I said, I don't have anything against you, or probably anyone on this board.

Just so long as you don't vote somebody into office that will infringe on my rights, and I don't vote somebody into office that will infringe on yours, I think we could get along smashingly.


I don't care, I'm still free.


Excellent and I as well

----
"Canada being mad at you is like Mr. Rogers throwing a brick through your window." -Jon Stewart, The Daily Show

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Thursday, June 24, 2004 4:58 AM

BARNSTORMER


Quote:

Originally posted by rue:
What I get from some postings is that Hussein is the proposed standard by which the US should be judged.

That's setting one's standards very, very low.




My intent when posting the article was NOT to suggest a yard stick to measure against. Indeed you are right in that calibrating a yard stick based on what someone of Saddams ilk has done IS setting an abysmally low standard.

I just came upon that article yesterday, and thought its point of view and content was interesting.

While I don't like at all the news coming out about Abu Garaib, it is not a commentary on the American public in general or its armed forces, but more like a commentary on the few D*ckHeads that actually did the deeds.

But no matter which way you look at it, it's pretty hard to realistically equate:

Beheadings
Amputations
Being thrown into a pool of acid
Being thrown into a wood chipper feet first
ect
ect
ad naseum

with...

Having Panties put on your head.
Having a dog bark at you
Being limited to 4 hours sleep(?)


Notice:
The above comparison is in no way meant to lessen my contempt for the D*ickHeads mentioned earlier in this response.

On a last note, I'm sure many of you will take issue with what I have written here. For that I am sorry, and I apologize in advance. I have always thought of myself (whether rightly or wrongly) as someone who is not on the Left and someone who is not on the Right, but somewheres round about in the middle.

In any case, I think this might be my last post in a political thread. I might just leave that to Ghoulman et al.

Politics and Religion are unwinnable arguments if there is more than one person taking part.

By Ya'll







BarnStormer

Am I a Lion?... No, I think I'm telling the truth.

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Thursday, June 24, 2004 4:39 PM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


Barnstormer,

Well, if one looks at the discussions as a contest, which can only be won, tied, or lost, then there IS no point to participating b/c they do go on and on - relentlessly.

But of one looks at them as entertainment, or education, or something that keeps one sharp just by reading, then maybe people win from them, even if no individual does.

I can see how the contention might turn you off, though.

I do hope you check out the many non-political threads. There is so much intelligence, thought, wit, amusement, camaraderie, information - a treasure trove of intelligence and talent and humanity - to be found there.

Sincerely,
Rue

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Thursday, June 24, 2004 4:51 PM

JCOBB


Quote:

Originally posted by rue:
Barnstormer,

Well, if one looks at the discussions as a contest, which can only be won, tied, or lost, then there IS no point to participating b/c they do go on and on - relentlessly.

But of one looks at them as entertainment, or education, or something that keeps one sharp just by reading, then maybe people win from them, even if no individual does.

I can see how the contention might turn you off, though.

I do hope you check out the many non-political threads. There is so much intelligence, thought, wit, amusement, camaraderie, information - a treasure trove of intelligence and talent and humanity - to be found there.

Sincerely,
Rue



+1

You can never approach an internt discussion like this as a winnable debate, (much as I am loathed to admit it).

I don't care, I'm still free.

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Friday, June 25, 2004 4:19 AM

BARNSTORMER


Quote:

Originally posted by JCobb:
Quote:

Originally posted by rue:
Barnstormer,

Well, if one looks at the discussions as a contest, which can only be won, tied, or lost, then there IS no point to participating b/c they do go on and on - relentlessly.

But of one looks at them as entertainment, or education, or something that keeps one sharp just by reading, then maybe people win from them, even if no individual does.

I can see how the contention might turn you off, though.

I do hope you check out the many non-political threads. There is so much intelligence, thought, wit, amusement, camaraderie, information - a treasure trove of intelligence and talent and humanity - to be found there.

Sincerely,
Rue



+1

You can never approach an internt discussion like this as a winnable debate, (much as I am loathed to admit it).

I don't care, I'm still free.





Yes, you are both quite right. And thank you for your responses.

I've been lurking on this site for a couple years now, and only just de-lurked a few days ago. The one thing that has kept me coming back here for that long HAS been the other discussions that go on in abundance.

There's no short supply of the funny, informative, and thought provoking on this sight as well as the comaraderie that comes from all of us loving the best SciFi show that ever was (to me all my other favorite SciFi comes in a close second).

The only thing that got me to post responses on the political type threads were the posts from certian users that I saw as just plain, unadulterated platforms for "american bashing".

I don't like being portrayed as a vicious, warmongering, subhuman form of cattle, bent on world domination, that can't form a self made opinion because I blindly follow the stink of my presidents butt.

It kind of gets my dander up ;)

Any way...that's my two cents worth.

See Ya on the other threads and have a great weekend.



BTW- Does anyone else have the suspicion that Ghoulman might actually be Succatash? He's been known in the past to rabble rouse using a Nom de Plume.

It's just a suspicion.......But in the near future, when the great State on New Hampshire, in the great country of the United States of America, takes over the world, we will be TELLING you what to think, NOT asking!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

(errr....Just as soon as someone tells me how to insert one of them there smiley face emoticons in my text.......anyone?)







Am I a Lion?... No, I think I'ma tellin' the truth.

BarnStormer

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Friday, June 25, 2004 4:58 AM

JASONZZZ



LOL

"If I wanted your opinion, I would have beaten it out of you"

BTW: the emoticons are all on the left panel while you are editing. You just type in something like : fork : (minus the spaces in between the colons that are bracketing the word)



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Friday, June 25, 2004 5:06 AM

BARNSTORMER


Thanks,

OK....Lets give this emoticon stuff a try....



Am I a Lion?... No, I think I'ma tellin' the truth.

BarnStormer

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Friday, June 25, 2004 5:10 AM

BARNSTORMER


Exxxxcellllennnt....

Let the domination begin.....

Miiinnneee
Bwaahhhhhaaaaahhhhhhaaaaa
All Miiinneeeeee

Am I a Lion?... No, I think I'ma tellin' the truth.

BarnStormer

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Friday, June 25, 2004 5:35 AM

SIGMANUNKI


Quote:

Originally posted by BarnStormer:

But no matter which way you look at it, it's pretty hard to realistically equate:

Beheadings
Amputations
Being thrown into a pool of acid
Being thrown into a wood chipper feet first
ect
ect
ad naseum

with...

Having Panties put on your head.
Having a dog bark at you
Being limited to 4 hours sleep(?)


Notice:
The above comparison is in no way meant to lessen my contempt for the D*ickHeads mentioned earlier in this response.



You are attempting to use Western culture to make it seem as though these things aren't linked.

They are, I don't pretend to actually understand it, but, I don't have to. These things to the Iraqi people are *worse* than death.

Not trying to be a dick here, but, you might want to watch that in the future. Cultural relativism has gotten *many* a people in trouble and most forget about it when constructing an argument. Tends to happen when peoples worlds are "home" centric.

----
"Canada being mad at you is like Mr. Rogers throwing a brick through your window." -Jon Stewart, The Daily Show

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Friday, June 25, 2004 5:54 AM

JASONZZZ


Quote:

Originally posted by SigmaNunki:
Quote:

Originally posted by BarnStormer:

But no matter which way you look at it, it's pretty hard to realistically equate:

Beheadings
Amputations
Being thrown into a pool of acid
Being thrown into a wood chipper feet first
ect
ect
ad naseum

with...

Having Panties put on your head.
Having a dog bark at you
Being limited to 4 hours sleep(?)


Notice:
The above comparison is in no way meant to lessen my contempt for the D*ickHeads mentioned earlier in this response.



You are attempting to use Western culture to make it seem as though these things aren't linked.

They are, I don't pretend to actually understand it, but, I don't have to. These things to the Iraqi people are *worse* than death.




I think you missed something there, cultural relativism aside (there's some pretence that we all understand what kind of milkshakes the Iraqi's like to drink. *Every* single Iraqi has a different personal favourite when it comes to milkshakes ), but the above stmt should be revised as "We've been told that - these things are *worse* than death to an Iraqi".

These things might be pretty damn bad for the Iraqi people cultural humiliation wise, but if they are *worse* than death, then why didn't Saddam dress them up as a bunch of crazed bunnies and see-thru negligee and marched them up and down the street? It's the same argument as "Why didn't Saddam feed them all Meng-berry milkshakes". That's why.


Quote:

Originally posted by SigmaNunki:


Not trying to be a dick here, but, you might want to watch that in the future. Cultural relativism has gotten *many* a people in trouble and most forget about it when constructing an argument. Tends to happen when peoples worlds are "home" centric.

----
"Canada being mad at you is like Mr. Rogers throwing a brick through your window." -Jon Stewart, The Daily Show





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Friday, June 25, 2004 6:03 AM

BARNSTORMER


Quote:

Originally posted by SigmaNunki:
Quote:

Originally posted by BarnStormer:

But no matter which way you look at it, it's pretty hard to realistically equate:

Beheadings
Amputations
Being thrown into a pool of acid
Being thrown into a wood chipper feet first
ect
ect
ad naseum

with...

Having Panties put on your head.
Having a dog bark at you
Being limited to 4 hours sleep(?)


Notice:
The above comparison is in no way meant to lessen my contempt for the D*ickHeads mentioned earlier in this response.



You are attempting to use Western culture to make it seem as though these things aren't linked.

They are, I don't pretend to actually understand it, but, I don't have to. These things to the Iraqi people are *worse* than death.

Not trying to be a dick here, but, you might want to watch that in the future. Cultural relativism has gotten *many* a people in trouble and most forget about it when constructing an argument. Tends to happen when peoples worlds are "home" centric.

----
"Canada being mad at you is like Mr. Rogers throwing a brick through your window." -Jon Stewart, The Daily Show




Sorry, that argument does'nt work with me. I've spent a significant amount of time in over a dozen different countries (none for some strange reason in Europe, but a few in Muslim countries).

I never perceived the differences between "Us" and "Them" (insert whatever nationalities you want in the Us and Them catagories) to be THAT different. No....Not to that degree.

No. My name is not synonomous with "Home" centric.



Am I a Lion?... No, I think I'ma tellin' the truth.

BarnStormer

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Friday, June 25, 2004 10:08 AM

SIGMANUNKI


Quote:

Originally posted by Jasonzzz:
I think you missed something there, cultural relativism aside (there's some pretence that we all understand what kind of milkshakes the Iraqi's like to drink. *Every* single Iraqi has a different personal favourite when it comes to milkshakes ), but the above stmt should be revised as "We've been told that - these things are *worse* than death to an Iraqi".

These things might be pretty damn bad for the Iraqi people cultural humiliation wise, but if they are *worse* than death, then why didn't Saddam dress them up as a bunch of crazed bunnies and see-thru negligee and marched them up and down the street? It's the same argument as "Why didn't Saddam feed them all Meng-berry milkshakes". That's why.


You're going to have to let me in on your point. Say it, don't demonstate it with analogy assuming people will pick up on it.

----
"Canada being mad at you is like Mr. Rogers throwing a brick through your window." -Jon Stewart, The Daily Show

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Friday, June 25, 2004 10:13 AM

SIGMANUNKI


Quote:

Originally posted by BarnStormer:
Sorry, that argument does'nt work with me. I've spent a significant amount of time in over a dozen different countries (none for some strange reason in Europe, but a few in Muslim countries).

I never perceived the differences between "Us" and "Them" (insert whatever nationalities you want in the Us and Them catagories) to be THAT different. No....Not to that degree.

No. My name is not synonomous with "Home" centric.



Am I a Lion?... No, I think I'ma tellin' the truth.

BarnStormer


I know that there are a couple of different types of people. There are one that pay attention to there surroundings and there are those that don't. I one for the former and it made it impossible for me to live the US. That was good from my education, but, not so good for the marriage. Thankfully she's back up here in days

But, to those that don't notice they'll never have any sense of the culture surrounding them. So, if you didn't notice a significant culture difference while over there, then you're in that second camp and your argument has no weight with me.

----
"Canada being mad at you is like Mr. Rogers throwing a brick through your window." -Jon Stewart, The Daily Show

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Friday, June 25, 2004 11:07 AM

BARNSTORMER


Quote:

Originally posted by SigmaNunki:
Quote:

Originally posted by BarnStormer:
Sorry, that argument does'nt work with me. I've spent a significant amount of time in over a dozen different countries (none for some strange reason in Europe, but a few in Muslim countries).

I never perceived the differences between "Us" and "Them" (insert whatever nationalities you want in the Us and Them catagories) to be THAT different. No....Not to that degree.

No. My name is not synonomous with "Home" centric.



Am I a Lion?... No, I think I'ma tellin' the truth.

BarnStormer


I know that there are a couple of different types of people. There are one that pay attention to there surroundings and there are those that don't. I one for the former and it made it impossible for me to live the US. That was good from my education, but, not so good for the marriage. Thankfully she's back up here in days

But, to those that don't notice they'll never have any sense of the culture surrounding them. So, if you didn't notice a significant culture difference while over there, then you're in that second camp and your argument has no weight with me.

----
"Canada being mad at you is like Mr. Rogers throwing a brick through your window." -Jon Stewart, The Daily Show




I DO notice my surroundings. Thats one reason among many that I find it easy to make friends in the countries I have had the pleasure of spending time in, and have been welcomed back by those same friends.

Your comments make it sound like you think that the people who don't come from your own country were born on Alpha Centauri or something.

Trust me, they don't.

Maybe we have a difference of opinion in what the word "significant" means. It sounds like your views on what makes someone different in a significant way is VERY narrow. You should try to have a more open mind. It will help greatly when meeting new people, and appreciating there cultures.


Oh well, to each their own....

I said several posts ago I was going to stop posting on the political threads.

I believe I'll actually do that now.

All parting shots will be ignored.

See ya all next time you make it to Alpha Centauri

Am I a Lion?... No, I think I'ma tellin' the truth.

BarnStormer

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Friday, June 25, 2004 6:27 PM

SIGMANUNKI


Quote:

Originally posted by BarnStormer:
Your comments make it sound like you think that the people who don't come from your own country were born on Alpha Centauri or something.


I'm sorry you read that into my reply as that wasn't there.


Quote:

Originally posted by BarnStormer:
Maybe we have a difference of opinion in what the word "significant" means. It sounds like your views on what makes someone different in a significant way is VERY narrow. You should try to have a more open mind. It will help greatly when meeting new people, and appreciating there cultures.


Actually, I'm *very* opened minded. Which is why I can actually accept things about other cultures without having to understand them (see previous post). I won't even comment further because the rest of this is baseless assumption about my person which you have no knowledge of what-so-ever.


Quote:

Originally posted by BarnStormer:
See ya all next time you make it to Alpha Centauri


Cheap shot.



----
"Canada being mad at you is like Mr. Rogers throwing a brick through your window." -Jon Stewart, The Daily Show

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Friday, June 25, 2004 6:43 PM

JASONZZZ


Quote:

Originally posted by SigmaNunki:

Actually, I'm *very* opened minded. Which is why I can actually accept things about other cultures without having to understand them (see previous post). I won't even comment further because the rest of this is baseless assumption about my person which you have no knowledge of what-so-ever.





When you use the word "accept", do you mean that you recognize that it's that behaviour is there, or do you mean that you accept it as a valid form of behaviour within their culture.

What if it completely conflicts with your own set of moral standard with no grey area boundaries at all, would you still "accept" it? An example, and a valid one: In certain cultures, its recognized that the parents of young baby girls have a civil, cultural, and moral responsibility to drown them in order to make sure that your only single child is a boy.



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Friday, June 25, 2004 7:00 PM

SIGMANUNKI


Quote:

Originally posted by Jasonzzz:
Quote:

Originally posted by SigmaNunki:

Actually, I'm *very* opened minded. Which is why I can actually accept things about other cultures without having to understand them (see previous post). I won't even comment further because the rest of this is baseless assumption about my person which you have no knowledge of what-so-ever.



When you use the word "accept", do you mean that you recognize that it's that behaviour is there, or do you mean that you accept it as a valid form of behaviour within their culture.

What if it completely conflicts with your own set of moral standard with no grey area boundaries at all, would you still "accept" it? An example, and a valid one: In certain cultures, its recognized that the parents of young baby girls have a civil, cultural, and moral responsibility to drown them in order to make sure that your only single child is a boy.




If some reliable source lets me know that it's a fact that certain things are true in another culture then I accept them as fact. Whether I think that it's right or wrong is a moot point, facts don't lie.

If the behaviour is valid or not in there culture cannot be defined by me, it's up to that culture. If they state that something happens and it's good or bad, I can't argue with that, it's there culture.

The validility (spelling?) of any issue is up to them. I just have to accept what they tell me.


As for that example. I've never heard of that being a *responsibility* in any culture, only that it happens. Whether it's an accepted norm or not my old brain won't let me remember.


I hope that clears things up. Let me know if it doesn't and I'll get back to you as soon as I'm up again.

----
"Canada being mad at you is like Mr. Rogers throwing a brick through your window." -Jon Stewart, The Daily Show

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Friday, June 25, 2004 7:01 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

Jasonzz... It's real, it's out there, it's not going away. Call it torture, call it what you will. The soft belly of the society will always be the prey... .The entire world is about manipulation, intimidation, control in one way or another. We all want to achieve some set of goals and we manipulate the environment around us to get our results. No matter what you do, some people are going to be unhappy and call it "torture" or some other thing. There are people who think that speaking roughly to a tomatoe plant is being unkind. If you live your entire lives letting others draw the lines for you, you'll never get anything done.

SignyM Again, what are you trying to say? That "manipulating the environment"= torturing people? (edit) That torture will always exist? That everyone is blind except you? That you PREFER a world in which torture is accepted because you'd like to use it yourself? Spit it out man! Tell me what you're REALLY thinking!



So Jasonzzz I noticed you never really answered my question.

So, here's another question- Do you truly believe that no one should draw the lines on your behavior?

Well then, why are you bitching about terrorists?


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Friday, June 25, 2004 7:17 PM

JASONZZZ


Quote:

Originally posted by SignyM:
Quote:

Jasonzz... It's real, it's out there, it's not going away. Call it torture, call it what you will. The soft belly of the society will always be the prey... .The entire world is about manipulation, intimidation, control in one way or another. We all want to achieve some set of goals and we manipulate the environment around us to get our results. No matter what you do, some people are going to be unhappy and call it "torture" or some other thing. There are people who think that speaking roughly to a tomatoe plant is being unkind. If you live your entire lives letting others draw the lines for you, you'll never get anything done.

SignyM Again, what are you trying to say? That "manipulating the environment"= torturing people? (edit) That torture will always exist? That everyone is blind except you? That you PREFER a world in which torture is accepted because you'd like to use it yourself? Spit it out man! Tell me what you're REALLY thinking!



So Jasonzzz I noticed you never really answered my question.

So, here's another question- Do you truly believe that no one should draw the lines on your behavior?

Well then, why are you bitching about terrorists?




You are asking like it (my answer, not your question) really matters - not that anything does.
But not to be discourteous. Today, served one too many Grande, Chocolatte, Frappa-frinkin'-CChino, cut one too many lawns, and rotated one too many set of tires. Another time would be good.



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Saturday, June 26, 2004 5:35 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


At your convenience.

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Saturday, June 26, 2004 8:59 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


bump

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Monday, June 28, 2004 8:27 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Still waiting

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Tuesday, December 7, 2004 10:29 AM

GHOULMAN


And you will continue to wait as the neofascists on this BBS can't get any satisfaction unless they troll, lie, and badger anyone with an opnion they don't like.

That's why they are neofascists.

[img] " [/img]
Photos of US Navy Seals' Prisoner Torture
http://mparent7777.blog-city.com/read/941890.htm

Kangaroo court in Guantanamo Bay
December 5, 2004
BY NAT HENTOFF
http://www.suntimes.com/output/otherviews/cst-edt-nat05.html
CLICK LINK FOR WHOLE ARTICLE ... should you even bother you fascist git.
While U.S. District Judge James Robertson irritated the White House on Feb. 9 by stopping a military tribunal at Guantanamo Bay because, he said, it was not a competent tribunal to decide the legal protections due those before it under the Geneva Convention, there is a separate set of proceedings for detainees there. The lawfulness of those proceedings is also under serious, continued question.

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Wednesday, December 8, 2004 6:31 AM

GHOULMAN


Fascism - it's for you to learn about.

Memo: Workers Threatened Over Prison Abuse
Tue Dec 7, 6:02 PM ET
http://story.news.yahoo.com/
news?tmpl=story&cid=514&e=2&u=/
ap/20041207/ap_on_re_la_am_ca/prisoner_abuse
By PAISLEY DODDS, Associated Press Writer
SAN JUAN, Puerto Rico - U.S. special forces accused of abusing prisoners in Iraq (news - web sites) threatened Defense Intelligence Agency personnel who saw the mistreatment, according to U.S. government memos released Tuesday by the American Civil Liberties Union .
CLICK LINK FOR ARTICLE ...

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Wednesday, December 8, 2004 11:01 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


The Bush Administration loved to beat up on Saddam because he was ignoring the UN, the Geneva Conventions, and human rights in general. Saddam ignoring the UN was "the" reason for going into Iraq, was it not? And of course Saddam was such a "bad man" and ignored human rights.


And then... they ignored the UN, the Geneva Convention, and human rights in general. YOu see, it's OK to hold people indefinitely without charge; to apply sleep deprivation, stress positions, beatings and humiliation that is "tatamount to torture"; to review detentions in a military hearing in which the detainee is NOT PRESENT and NOT ALLOWED TO SEE THE EVIDENCE against them; and to accept evidence obtained by torture. The reason why that is "acceptable", according to the Administration, is because these people are not American citizens and thus fall into the class of "sub-human" and accorded no rights whatsover.

I don't think that its too farfetched to call this FASCISM. What I find so very boggling is that supporters of the Administration fail to see that requiring Saddam meet UN/Geneva/human rights requirements and then totally flouting those requirement themsleves is a glaringly obvious contradiction. Why can't they actually manage to put some of these thought next to each other and notice that there is just a tad of hypocracy going on? Enquiring minds certainly want to know.

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Saturday, December 11, 2004 7:27 AM

GHOULMAN


Quote:

Originally posted by SignyM:
I don't think that its too farfetched to call this FASCISM.



Nor do I amigo.

Guantánamo torture and humiliation still going on, says shackled Briton
Vikram Dodd and Clare Dyer
Saturday December 11, 2004
The Guardian
http://www.guardian.co.uk/guantanamo/story/0,13743,1371609,00.html
Fresh allegations about a regime of torture and humiliation inflicted on detainees by their American captors at Guantánamo Bay have been made by a Briton still held there, according to Foreign Office documents seen by the Guardian.

The claims by Martin Mubanga, from London, are the latest to surface from the prison where the US holds 550 Muslim men it claims are terrorists in conditions that have sparked worldwide condemnation.

Mr Mubanga is one of four Britons still in Guantánamo, held without charge or trial.


See America? Worldwide shame on the USA.

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