REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

"NOW Do You Believe in Global Warming?"

POSTED BY: NIKI2
UPDATED: Sunday, August 26, 2012 15:07
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Tuesday, July 24, 2012 4:40 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


I agree with both of you, wholeheartedly! There IS one thing that I would kinda half dispute, however. From what I've heard, read and seen, energy companies are starting to put money into alternative-energy..in teeeny increments, admittedly, but they are. In that respect, it's market-driven. Just like car companies and tobacco companies, they can read the writing on the wall--that their time is limited unless they start diversifying.

It's not truly market driven, if left to their own devices, none of those would be doing what they are doing, and the energy companies (like Big Tobacco) will fight to the death before giving up their strangle hold on the market, but it's only fair to recognize it's happening.

Otherwise, I agree with everything you said, and certainly share your frustration!


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Wednesday, July 25, 2012 4:09 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Quote:

An ice chunk twice the size of Manhattan broke off of Greenland last week, in another sign of Arctic warming.

The 46-square-mile piece of the Petermann Glacier in Greenland “calved” away from the mainland on Monday. It tore along a crack in the glacier that researchers have been watching for years.

Another iceberg twice its size (i.e., four times the size of Manhattan) broke off the same glacier in 2010.

This striking video by New Scientist shows the damage Petermann has sustained over the past few years. A time-lapse gives a dramatic display of the earliest loss from the glacier (beginning in 2009).


Pretty impressive change in just two years:


Just sayin'...


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Wednesday, July 25, 2012 8:24 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...





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Wednesday, July 25, 2012 10:19 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by kpo:
Quote:

I think he's snarking about Obama having said small businesses don't get created by one person. Not sure, but that's what it sounds like.

Oh, the line about small businesses Obama didn't say, but Romney edited to make it sound as though he had?

It's not personal. It's just war.



No, the line Obama actually DID say, and Romney rightfully replayed, full and in context. Same line as you're talking about, but some how you've fallen prey to the brain washing from the MSM.

Obama hates small business, as do most Liberals. Just ask Elizabeth ( lies when speaks ) Warren.


" We're all just folk. " - Mal

" AU, that was great, LOL!! " - Chrisisall

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Wednesday, July 25, 2012 10:22 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by Niki2:




Niki - Your posted cartoon is fracking ridiculous,and a blatant plea to pure lunacy. It only makes sense if you believe dinosaurs and humans lived at the same time, as there were virtually NO ice at the poles during most of the planet's existence.

Seriously, you can't be THIS far gone.


" We're all just folk. " - Mal

" AU, that was great, LOL!! " - Chrisisall

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Wednesday, July 25, 2012 10:32 AM

1KIKI

Today, scientists sound the alarm on other environmental dangers. Vested interests still hire their own scientists to confuse the issue. But in the end, nature will not be fooled. Neil deGrasse Tyson



Global Warming's Terrifying New Math
Three simple numbers that add up to global catastrophe - and that make clear who the real enemy is



By Bill McKibben
July 19, 2012 9:35 AM ET

If the pictures of those towering wildfires in Colorado haven't convinced you, or the size of your AC bill this summer, here are some hard numbers about climate change: June broke or tied 3,215 high-temperature records across the United States. That followed the warmest May on record for the Northern Hemisphere – the 327th consecutive month in which the temperature of the entire globe exceeded the 20th-century average, the odds of which occurring by simple chance were 3.7 x 10-99, a number considerably larger than the number of stars in the universe.

Meteorologists reported that this spring was the warmest ever recorded for our nation – in fact, it crushed the old record by so much that it represented the "largest temperature departure from average of any season on record." The same week, Saudi authorities reported that it had rained in Mecca despite a temperature of 109 degrees, the hottest downpour in the planet's history. ...

For the past year, an easy and powerful bit of arithmetical analysis first published by financial analysts in the U.K. has been making the rounds of environmental conferences and journals, but it hasn't yet broken through to the larger public. This analysis upends most of the conventional political thinking about climate change. And it allows us to understand our precarious – our almost-but-not-quite-finally hopeless – position with three simple numbers.

The First Number: 2° Celsius

... So far, we've raised the average temperature of the planet just under 0.8 degrees Celsius, and that has caused far more damage than most scientists expected. (A third of summer sea ice in the Arctic is gone, the oceans are 30 percent more acidic, and since warm air holds more water vapor than cold, the atmosphere over the oceans is a shocking five percent wetter, loading the dice for devastating floods.) Given those impacts, in fact, many scientists have come to think that two degrees (Celsius) is far too lenient a target.



Read more: http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/news/global-warmings-terrifying-n
ew-math-20120719#ixzz21fUjeFTG





SignyM: I swear, if we really knew what was being decided about us in our absence, and how hosed the government is prepared to let us be, we would string them up.

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Wednesday, July 25, 2012 10:47 AM

STORYMARK


Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:


No, the line Obama actually DID say, and Romney rightfully replayed, full and in context.



Except the parts they deliberately left out.

Do you even know what a full quote IS? Or grasp the notion of context? Evidence suggests not.


Note to anyone - Please pity the poor, poor wittle Rappyboy. He's feeling put upon lately, what with all those facts disagreeing with what he believes.

"Goram it kid, let's frak this thing and go home! Engage!"

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Wednesday, July 25, 2012 10:49 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Kiki, I'd kind of like to read the rest, but I just can't. I already know too much, and I KNOW, with no doubt whatsoever, that there are far too many--especially in America--like Raptor who will deny anything's happening with their last, dying breath. Thank you for the input, it might mean something to those of us with more than two brain cells to rub together, but we both know we're pissing in the wind here. It's too late (I think by far); things will go just as the scientists are predicting, and the brainless idiots like Raptor will keep us from doing anything about it, so that despite many other countries having accepted it and doing as much as they can to fight back, people will suffer horrendously. HOPEFULLY, if it doesn't speed up too much, I'll be gone before I have to watch this beautiful blue marble get destroyed.

Having a debate with another Occupier; I say mankind will destroy the earth so badly that it can't recover, she's convinced the earth will heal itself once we're gone (or at least, reduced to stone-age levels so we can't pollute further). Which do you think? Given the acidity mentioned, the rate of extinction of species (and the fact that we're all intertwined in one way or another, even ways of which we can't conceive), do you think the earth can survive us, or will we have created a dead ball? I'd be interested in anyone's theories (well, except the obvious deniers; any "theories" they may have are irrelevant).

One argument I've found is
Quote:

The planet has its own dynamic life process. As carbon dioxide levels increase, the planet responds by increasing plant growth (more specifically, a higher supply of carbon dioxide makes a more favorable environment for photosynthetic organisms, like algae).

Likewise, as temperatures rise, there is an increase in available water to life forms. Here, again, a more favorable environment for photosynthetic organisms, as water and carbon dioxide are respired to give off oxygen. As the water and CO2 are removed from the atmosphere and ground, the temperature decreases. While this process takes a mere blink of the planet's proverbial eye, it could take thousands of years. Once the cooling begins to take place, the temperature continues to drop until the photosynthetic life begins to die off due to lack of nutrients. The dead photosynthetic life then decays and decomposes, releasing CO2 and water, beginning the rise of temperatures again.

But given the increasing acidity of the oceans, and how much this suggestion of survival depends on water...? Like can algae surviving in acidic water?

Another posits that microbes--in the oceans and on land--would save the planet ( http://www.livescience.com/1293-earth-survive-global-warming.html), but I don't know enough about that stuff to even have an opinion.

Given I've accepted that we're past tipping point, my interest now is in whether the earth can survive after we're gone, or reduced to a tiny number of survivors with no industrial abilities. There seem to be many opinions, from whether earth will end up like Venus,
Quote:

The planet Venus has survived global warming. There the atmosphere is 95% carbon dioxide and all the oceans have boiled dry. The surface temperature there is 894°F (480°C), but the planet has survived. But it's not the same as it was when it was cooler, and had oceans.
or be able to heal itself enough to be habitable by any real lifeform.


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Wednesday, July 25, 2012 10:55 AM

KPO

"Love is natural and real. But not for you my love. Not tonight my love..."


Quote:

No, the line Obama actually DID say, and Romney rightfully replayed, full and in context. Same line as you're talking about, but some how you've fallen prey to the brain washing from the MSM.


Hmm, I guess I've been misled then. Could you provide me with the correct full quote and context?

It's not personal. It's just war.

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Wednesday, July 25, 2012 10:58 AM

KPO

"Love is natural and real. But not for you my love. Not tonight my love..."


Oh and I'm still waiting for an answer to this Auraptor - after the lecture you were giving us on 'real science':

Quote:

What is this 'real science' that you're referring to? Is it right-wing blogs and Daily Mail articles? Would you recognise real scientific literature, if you saw it? Would you recognise propaganda masquerading as 'real science' if you saw it?


It's not personal. It's just war.

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Wednesday, July 25, 2012 11:14 AM

1KIKI

Today, scientists sound the alarm on other environmental dangers. Vested interests still hire their own scientists to confuse the issue. But in the end, nature will not be fooled. Neil deGrasse Tyson


It depends on how far global warming can go. As I have heard - and it makes sense to me - the problem with models is that they can only model the very narrow parameters of the recent past. Once things have changed beyond those parameters, your past knowledge is useless. You can't know what mechanisms are active, and how they interact with each other. Your model is broken. You can no longer use it to predict anything.

The question for me is: will the earth be driven to new extremes it hasn't seen and recovered from in the past?

Some people claim that we will never become Venus. And maybe that's true. After all, the atmosphere of Mars is 90% CO2 and > IT'S < not Venus. OTOH Mars doesn't have a toasty molten core providing its own heat AND receives far less solar radiation (by a radius SQUARED factor where the radius is the distance from the sun. So the drop off from going further out is extreme.) And everything I've seen indicates global warming is a positive feedback process. To date I haven’t seen a negative feedback brake. Also, everything I've read indicates that once the OCEANS are broken (ie when the Siberian Traps erupted) recovery is iffy. At least there are thermal vent organisms that I would hope are isolated enough from the effects of global warming. OTOH what I have read is that the growing theory of life on earth came from off the planet - maybe Mars, maybe asteroids, maybe elsewhere. SHOULD the planet become sterilized, that means that the planet might have to wait for another chance at life.

In short - I don't have an answer.


SignyM: I swear, if we really knew what was being decided about us in our absence, and how hosed the government is prepared to let us be, we would string them up.

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Wednesday, July 25, 2012 11:26 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


C'mon, KPO, you know he won't do either. In the interest of clarification (and in the hopes this can stop being threadjacked into a Raptor back and forth), I'll provide the answers.

As to what Obama said, as I posted in that thread, here is the entire quote:
Quote:

"If you were successful, somebody along the line gave you some help. There was a great teacher somewhere in your life. Somebody helped to create this unbelievable American system that we have that allowed you to thrive. Somebody invested in roads and bridges. If you’ve got a business -- you didn’t build that. Somebody else made that happen.

So we say to ourselves, ever since the founding of this country, you know what, there are some things we do better together. That’s how we funded the G.I. Bill. That’s how we created the middle class. That’s how we built the Golden Gate Bridge or the Hoover Dam. That’s how we invented the Internet. That’s how we sent a man to the moon. We rise or fall together as one nation and as one people.


As to the science of global warming, here is some simple scientific facts as to whether we are past tipping point or not:
Quote:

A team of 30 scientists across the globe ( http://www.stockholmresilience.org/research/researchnews/tippingtoward
stheunknown/contactdetails.4.1fe8f33123572b59ab800010646.html
) have determined that the nine environmental processes named above must remain within specific limits, otherwise the "safe operating space" within which humankind can exist on Earth will be threatened.

The group has set numeric limits for seven of the nine so far (chemical pollution and aerosol loading are still being pinned down). And the researchers have determined that the world has already crossed the boundary in three cases: biodiversity loss, the nitrogen cycle and climate change.

Up to 30% of mammals, birds and amphibians will be threatened with extinction in this century;
Biodiversity loss has happened faster in the past 50 years than at any other time in human history;
We're losing ice sheets; sea levels are rising; weather patterns are changing;
Carbon dioxide is making the oceans more acidic, causing the loss of corals, shellfish and plankton;
Widespread fertilizer use is changing the nitrogen and phosphorous cycles even more than the carbon cycle;
Excess nitrogen and phosphorous pollute our rivers, lakes, oceans and atmosphere;
Global freshwater use doubles every 20 years, at more than twice the rate of population growth;
We've already passed the tipping point of climate change, biodiversity loss and nitrogen levels;
We're about to pass the tipping point of freshwater consumption, ocean acidification, land use and phosphorous levels.

Jon Foley, director of the University of Minnesota’s Institute on the Environment, and a leader of the group, lays out the limits and their implications for human action in an article ( http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=boundaries-for-a-heal
thy-planet
) in Scientific American‘s April issue. http://blogs.scientificamerican.com/observations/2010/03/19/is-earth-p
ast-the-tipping-point
/


Can the earth survive all that, even with us completely gone?


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Wednesday, July 25, 2012 11:30 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Thanx, Kiki, that makes sense to me. And of course I don't have an answer either, nor really does anyone else; all we can do is theorize. But it's not just global warming at work...see my above post. Given the combination of all those things, in addition to global warming, I'm not sure what to think, aside from the fact that our particular species is pretty much headed for extinction. It's the planet I care about now, and I'll never know. I care about people, mind you, but I believe at this point all we can do is stave off the inevitable for as long as possible, and I weep for coming generations.

I have to look up some of that stuff you mentioned to understand further, but I thank you for what you've given me.

Smiled at the concept that life came from off-planet. Happened to catch "Mission to Mars" last night JUST when I was getting ready for bed, so of course had to watch it again. Lovely hopeful vision, but I'm afraid I can't buy it...sadly.


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Wednesday, July 25, 2012 2:58 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!



Obama is lying.

Quote:

"Well, the problem is you left out the sentence that I made before so what I said was together we build roads and we build bridges and so if you've got a business, you didn't build that...Meaning the roads and the bridges, not your business. And anybody who actually watched the tape knows that's what I was referring to. That's a point I've made millions of times and that's a point Mr. Romney has made as well so I think it's just a bogus issue.



The full quote, in context....

“If you’ve been successful, you didn’t get there on your own, ” Obama said. “You didn’t get there on your own. I’m always struck by people who think, well, it must be because I was just so smart. There are a lot of smart people out there. It must be because I worked harder than everybody else. Let me tell you something – there are a whole bunch of hardworking people out there. If you were successful, somebody along the line gave you some help. There was a great teacher somewhere in your life. Somebody helped to create this unbelievable American system that we have that allowed you to thrive. Somebody invested in roads and bridges. If you’ve got a business. you didn’t build that. Somebody else made that happen.”

'Business' is singular.

IF YOU'VE GOT A BUSINESS, YOU DIDN'T BUILD THAT

Roads and Bridges ...are plural. Meaning MANY roads and bridges. He did't say ALL that, referring to many or several bridges. He could have, but he didn't. Or maybe Obama also meant that someone else BUILT those teachers ? It's utterly nonsensical to believe Obama WASN'T talking about building a small business, as the word "that" is literally in the same sentence as the word " business ", to which 'that' refers. Yes, small business owners did, indeed BUILD THAT.

The captain had it right....






" We're all just folk. " - Mal

" AU, that was great, LOL!! " - Chrisisall

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Wednesday, July 25, 2012 3:35 PM

MAL4PREZ


Niki - your own language reveals something sad. Global warming is not a belief system. It makes no sense to ask whether anyone BELIEVES in it or not. Evidence supports it, or not. Personal belief has no bearing on the matter.

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Wednesday, July 25, 2012 5:14 PM

KPO

"Love is natural and real. But not for you my love. Not tonight my love..."


Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:

Obama is lying.

Quote:

"Well, the problem is you left out the sentence that I made before so what I said was together we build roads and we build bridges and so if you've got a business, you didn't build that...Meaning the roads and the bridges, not your business. And anybody who actually watched the tape knows that's what I was referring to. That's a point I've made millions of times and that's a point Mr. Romney has made as well so I think it's just a bogus issue.



The full quote, in context....

“If you’ve been successful, you didn’t get there on your own, ” Obama said. “You didn’t get there on your own. I’m always struck by people who think, well, it must be because I was just so smart. There are a lot of smart people out there. It must be because I worked harder than everybody else. Let me tell you something – there are a whole bunch of hardworking people out there. If you were successful, somebody along the line gave you some help. There was a great teacher somewhere in your life. Somebody helped to create this unbelievable American system that we have that allowed you to thrive. Somebody invested in roads and bridges. If you’ve got a business. you didn’t build that. Somebody else made that happen.”

'Business' is singular.

IF YOU'VE GOT A BUSINESS, YOU DIDN'T BUILD THAT

Roads and Bridges ...are plural. Meaning MANY roads and bridges. He did't say ALL that, referring to many or several bridges. He could have, but he didn't. Or maybe Obama also meant that someone else BUILT those teachers ? It's utterly nonsensical to believe Obama WASN'T talking about building a small business, as the word "that" is literally in the same sentence as the word " business ", to which 'that' refers. Yes, small business owners did, indeed BUILD THAT.







Thanks Auraptor, I enjoyed that. Now could you answer my questions about the nature of real science?

It's not personal. It's just war.

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Wednesday, July 25, 2012 5:25 PM

KPO

"Love is natural and real. But not for you my love. Not tonight my love..."


Quote:

Originally posted by mal4prez:
Niki - your own language reveals something sad. Global warming is not a belief system. It makes no sense to ask whether anyone BELIEVES in it or not. Evidence supports it, or not. Personal belief has no bearing on the matter.


But face it Mal4, the majority of people are not scientists, and are not capable of reviewing all the evidence, and interpreting it. The evidence may be clear to climate scientists, but it simply isn't to the man on the street; this man to a large extent has to take it on faith (or not) that the scientists know what they are doing, and are telling him the truth.

So I would contend that for the majority of people 'belief' is the right word.

It's not personal. It's just war.

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Wednesday, July 25, 2012 5:45 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


"Shocking" Greenland Ice Melt: Global Warming or Just Heat Wave?
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2012/07/120725-greenland-ice-s
heet-melt-satellites-nasa-space-science
/

New Antarctic ice shelf threatened by warming
http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/05/09/us-antarctica-global-warming
-idUSBRE84811E20120509


Well, the Arctic ice is disappearing more than ever before, buildings on permafrost are leaning over and caving in, big chunks of the Greenland ice shield- which existed long before humans came on the scene- are breaking off. Same as the Antarctic. This year, the middle part of America is burning up... and, I mean burning, not just scorching. Last year, it was Texas and the middle of Russia. Next year.... who knows?

The "common man" (or woman) WOULD know by now that we are in deep trouble, if they (1) weren't constantly sedated and lied to by the media, (2) too afraid to look, and (3) felt like there was any prayer that they COULD do something effective.

Well, they can. but it means taking on those in power.

All of those great technical solutions aren't worth a cup of warm spit until TPTB are no longer in power.

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Wednesday, July 25, 2012 7:11 PM

MAL4PREZ


Quote:

Originally posted by kpo:
Quote:

Originally posted by mal4prez:
Niki - your own language reveals something sad. Global warming is not a belief system. It makes no sense to ask whether anyone BELIEVES in it or not. Evidence supports it, or not. Personal belief has no bearing on the matter.


But face it Mal4, the majority of people are not scientists, and are not capable of reviewing all the evidence, and interpreting it. The evidence may be clear to climate scientists, but it simply isn't to the man on the street; this man to a large extent has to take it on faith (or not) that the scientists know what they are doing, and are telling him the truth.

So I would contend that for the majority of people 'belief' is the right word.

It's not personal. It's just war.



If 40 million people believe in a stupid idea, it's still a stupid idea and belongs in the garbage. If you want to rise about trash level, you have to make an effort. It's not beyond anyone here (except those who we know will not even try) to do better than "belief" regarding something as important as this. It's certainly not beyond Niki.

Asking whether a handful of posters at some random sci-fi website "BELIEVE" in GW is not only a waste of typing, it's a step backwards. No matter what we say, the deniers will continue to believe what they believe and nothing will change that, and they LOVE having a chance to proselytize. You cannot break their belief-based denial, but by accepting their mentality you insult the reasonable minority who've looked at the evidence and formed conclusions based on an open mind and observation of nature, without reliance on blind belief.

Please read the following carefully: I DO NOT BELIEVE in anthropomorphic global warming. What's happened over the past ten years is that I find that observations/evidence of events on planet Earth support the theory of AGW. If you cannot see the difference in these two statements, you won't make any meaningful headway in this debate, but will continue to be a clucking chicken fluttering about the yard while the grown-ups talk at the table in the farmhouse. You'll be nothing but pointless noise in the background if you continue to address this as "belief".

What I suggest is that Niki ask whether folks find *such-and-such* new evidence convincing. It may sound like I'm pecking at silly wording things, but this is hugely important. The only way to bring up the level of the discourse is to NOT fall into the trap of asking what people *believe* about GW. Belief systems will not change: if you waste time taking that approach you are playing into the deist's game: a huge waste of time. Stick with evidence, not beliefs. No matter what. Otherwise, it is not science.

GW IS well-supported science. That's the whole point. Belief does not enter into it. If you let that word come in, you have failed to understand.

Added bonus re belief systems: I've known this song for a while, but tonight I sat down and really listened to it. I think it's about Darwin's discovery of evidence of evolution, and where that shift has left us: lost at sea, without our previous belief systems. Personally I find this idea freeing, but I can see that other people may see it as it is in the song: since Darwin did his thing, they're lost at sea. They no longer no solid ground of God creation/belief under their feet, and it scares them shitless:



Who could heed the words of Charlie Darwin,
Fighting for a system built to fail
Spooning water from a broken vessel
As far as I can see there is no land

...

Oh my God, the water's cold and shapeless.
Oh my God, it's all around.
Oh my God, life is dark and formless
Oh my God, it's all around

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Wednesday, July 25, 2012 7:40 PM

OONJERAH



Belief?

There are people, scientists, who know all about Global Warming/Climate Change.
They know if it is real or not. The rest of us can only choose to trust them --
or not.
After accurate knowledge of the situation, Belief is the most important thing
as I see it. This didn't happen so suddenly at all, and evidence about it has
been observed and reported for more than 50 years.

Because of disBelief in Global Warming, most of us here in America have chosen
to ignore it instead of taking responsibility both personally and politically.
If we could just be more factual and honest about the situation, we might have
changed our ways decades ago, when it could have made some difference.

Belief is needed to make constructive change.


=========================
I am convinced that life is 10% what happens to me and 90% of how I react to it. ~Charles R Swindoll

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Thursday, July 26, 2012 4:52 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Let me try to explain, Mal4. Actually, Oonj did a better job than I will, but I'll try my usual, over-long method. I just went through this with Raptor--tho' I doubt he understood it--on another subject. In my opinion those of us who either weren't there and have to get our information from other sources, or in this case aren't scientists ourselves who have taken the measurements, etc., only CAN "believe" or not believe. We can't "know" for ourselves, we have to accept someone else's word for it. There are many, many scientific things around us which we do not have the knowledge to understand personally, so we have to either have faith that those who are explaining them to us are accurate, or dismiss what they say. Ergo, "belief".

Small example: I took my dogs sulkying at the Ponds an hour or so ago, just before sunup. We startled a skunk, who ran right across the path, causing the stupid dogs, of course, to give chse. He hit the brush, which the sulky can't go through, with the result that the dogs ended up all tangled up and me pulled in after them. I didn't realize until I'd untangled them that my foot hurt. It's sprained, much ouch. Now, I KNOW my foot hurts. Having been through the experience, I know WHY my foot hurts. So it's not a matter of "belief". That's simple. I've also seen for myself melting ice caps (via video) and am aware of the incredible heat the rest of the country is experiencing (via video). But there can be many explanations for why both of those things are happening, and I'm not scientist enough nor have taken readings enough even if I COULD understand them to KNOW whether that's because of climate change or not. I have to trust scientists. Ergo, belief.

Now, Raptor has explained that he mostly listens to talk radio, and virtually all of that from conservative sources. Ergo, the explanations he's been given for these things happening is that they are NOT caused by global warming, and aside from the usual propaganda, he's told it's because OTHER scientists have determined it's not. So he "believes" there's no global warming, or that if there is, the causes are natural and other than man made.

Do you see what I'm saying? Those of us not directly involved have no choice but to believe or disbelieve. The REASONS we choose between the two come from within us and are complex, involving denial, fear, desire to try to attain the most accurate information, politics of course, and others. Neither he nor I can "know". I, and some scientists, believe we've passed tipping point; other scientists believe we can reverse the situation. There's where real "belief" comes into play; which do you believe? Can you KNOW one or the other?

That's the best I can do to try and explain why I say "believe" rather than "know". I did, by the way, kind of do as you suggested: Rather than asking if they found *such-and-such* new evidence convincing, I listed the nine criteria scientists put together, such as lack of biodiversity, acidification of the oceans, etc., and asked how else THEY would explain them. Haven't checked to see if I got an answer, and if so what it might be, but I will.

Nonetheless, in my opinion, asking whether people believe OR giving them evidence and asking if they find it convincing is a waste of time; those who don't "accept" if you will that these things are happening and will affect us won't be convinced by any facts or evidence...they are given "reasons" to believe otherwise, in Raptor's case because the only sources from which he gets his "facts" have a stake in presenting supposed "scientific" evidence from "scientists" with their own agenda which is contrary to what most relatively unbiased scientists have come to agree. Hell, many of these types still don't "believe" in evolution--how much progress can you make in that case?

'Nuff said, I hope you understand what I'm trying to explain and why I will continue to use the term "belief". Now I gotta go soak my aching foot while I curse my belief in the stupidity of huskies...

ETA: Well, looking back up the thread, I see only Raptor replied after I listed the evidence I mentioned, and he's chosen to go back to arguing about Obama "lying". So I guess it's just going to be ignored. Big surprise.


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Thursday, July 26, 2012 5:36 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Rappy and I went through this many threads ago: the Vostok ice cores, and so-called climate-gate. Having gone through this with him IN DETAIL, he chooses to ignore the bulk of the evidence and clings to his one or two irrelevant "facts" instead. Let's give rappy a rest: the guy is as irrelevant to this discussion as he is to discussions about the economy, radical Muslims, the Iraq war, or anything else.

I understand what you say about "belief" Niki, but the problem is that people really DO need to be making decisions about real things, and it is incumbent on us as a species to do the best we can to suss out the reality of the situation. If we don't, then we'll just die off as a species. We seem to be able to think a great deal about which team is going to win, and we think an awful lot about religion and other inexplicables, so why not think about real, important stuff too?

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Thursday, July 26, 2012 10:01 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Sig, everything you said. In spades. I do what I can, and will continue to, and if I find other ways to do more, of which I am capable and willing, I'll do those things too.

The difference is that I believe we've passed tipping point, and I have no hope of OUR government in particular doing anything about anything, or even making decisions about the real things--to me this being the "realist" of all. At this point it would take global agreements to make even a dent in what's happening, and the numbers are against us even then, especially what with America being the biggest, the baddest, the richest and the most destructive. So I just do what I can personally and occasionally give in to pissing into the wind a bit.


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Thursday, July 26, 2012 4:17 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by mal4prez:
Niki - your own language reveals something sad. Global warming is not a belief system. It makes no sense to ask whether anyone BELIEVES in it or not. Evidence supports it, or not. Personal belief has no bearing on the matter.



Exactly why I reply with " no ", when anyone asks if I 'believe' in evolution. It's not a matter of belief. I acknowledge it as fact, based on the body of known evidence.

That one really ticks off the fundies. At first, they think they have a convert, but then when I explain further, you'd have thought I just told them their puppy got run over in the street.



" We're all just folk. " - Mal

" AU, that was great, LOL!! " - Chrisisall

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Friday, July 27, 2012 3:25 AM

KPO

"Love is natural and real. But not for you my love. Not tonight my love..."


Quote:

Originally posted by Auraptor:
If I believe YOU, and ignore real science



C'mon, what is this 'real science' Auraptor, and where do we find it? This shouldn't be so hard to answer...

I notice PirateNews posted a website link called real-science.com earlier - is that the 'real science' you were talking about?

It's not personal. It's just war.

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Friday, August 3, 2012 7:52 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Bumping this to offer one teeeny piece of good news, and some info on what the rest of the world is doing:
Quote:

It is a chilly morning in Olenguruone village on the southern flank of the Rift Valley, but Gloria Chepng’etich is warming up to the task at hand.

Spread neatly on her workbench are bamboo splices that the 21-year-old will weave into floor mats over the next hour or so.

She will then pass the handicraft to her colleague, Zipporah Sirui, who will finish it with touches of dye, blending it into a colorful mix of orange, red, and gray.

A single mat fetches around $50, enough for each of them to buy cooking flour and save some money for a rainy day.

PICTURES: Sustaining the Environment

Beyond their work, Chepng’etich and Sirui have something else in common – both are internally displaced persons (IDPs). They were among the thousands of families evicted by the Kenyan government from the Mau forest complex in 2009, following pressure by environmentalists to rehabilitate the area.

The complex, which comprises 16 blocks of forest on the western side of the Rift Valley, is the largest indigenous forest in East Africa, generating and capturing rainfall that is a crucial resource for Kenya and beyond and a significant factor in mitigating the regional effects of climate change.

The eviction of forest residents won the government national and international praise, with officials arguing that it would reduce illegal harvesting of forest resources and create space for reforestation in the complex. But the social and economic costs were high.

“We were sent to the Kurbanyat IDP camp,” says Chepng’etich. “For a long time we relied on relief food, but the officials started stealing it.”

Destitute and desperate is how officials with the BamCraft Project found the two, and hundreds of other IDPs. The project is a partnership of Kenya Forestry Research Institute (KEFRI), the United Nations Industrial Development Organization, and the government of Japan.

Now the IDPs are finding a new way to make a living – without cutting trees – by turning to bamboo farming.

At the nearby Kapkempu IDP camp, Hudson Sang’ has been piecing together refined bamboo planks, which he will craft into furniture, selling a set for about $100.

“We have about an acre of land under bamboo,” says Sang’. “After harvesting [the bamboo] we make tables, chairs, floor mats, baskets, brooms, necklaces, sugar dishes, smoking pipes, and even wine cups.”

The land has been loaned to Sang’ and other IDPs by well-wishers while they await permanent resettlement by the government. As a result of the bamboo project, he no longer has to worry about the forest guards who enforce a ban that since 2000 has restricted the harvesting of forest resources from all government forests.

The legislation requires Kenyans to seek permission from local authorities before cutting down any tree from their farms, but it does not apply to bamboo since the plant is classified as a giant grass, officials say.

The legislation prompted the Kenya Forestry Research Institute to investigate opportunities offered by nontimber products and their potential to reduce pressure on forests, says Gordon Sigu, a research scientist working with the institution.

“Our research has shown that the grass … can supplement the rising demand for timber both at home and abroad,” Sigu said.

He said bamboo grows very quickly and a farmer does not need a big area of land to cultivate it.

Farmers in central Kenya are pleased with bamboo’s commercial value, and a growing number of them are adopting bamboo farming to supply industrial fiber, as well as planks for the construction sector.

“Before I came to know about its value I used bamboo for fencing,” says Moses Kamiri, a farmer in central Kenya. “But the last harvest fetched me enough money to feed my family and pay school fees.”

The institute estimates that Kenya is home to 14 species of bamboo growing on some 150,000 hectares [370,000 acres] of land – more than a fifth of which lies within the Mau complex – but it says that a lot goes to waste because few people understand its commercial value.

According to KEFRI’s Rift Valley regional director, Joshua Cheboiywo, the country has the capacity to generate almost 25 million stems of bamboo per year without taking too much of the country’s water supply.

A 2010 government survey indicates that Kenya has a forest cover of 5.9 percent. The government hopes that the use of bamboo as an alternative timber resource, together with enforcement of the ban on logging in the Mau complex, will help the country make headway towards the target envisioned in the country’s constitution of 10 percent forest cover within the next 30 years.

Okay, so it's only a small thing, but it's kinda neat nonetheless.

Then there are these from around the world:


Cyclists carry their bicycles as they participate in World Car Free Day in Brasilia on Sept. 22, 2011. Participants switched from cars to bicycles in an effort to raise environmental awareness and promote bicycles as a cleaner and more sustainable mode of transport.


Abraham Pardee saws a piece of metal during demonstrations to show how natural resources are reused to make sustainable products at the Ornamental Metal Museum in Memphis, Tenn., May 26, 2012.


A parking station for the Autolib' electric car-share scheme is seen on a street in Paris on Dec. 2, 2011. Paris launched an electric car-sharing program to cut air and noise pollution on the city's medieval cobblestone streets and beyond.


Recycling bins are seen at the Center for Alternative Technology in Machynlleth, Wales, March 25, 2010.


Trash cans are tagged in different colors for waste segregation inside the 30-story T30 Hotel built by the Broad Group in Yueyang, Hunan province on April 24, 2012.


A worker is dwarfed by the structure of 'Supertrees' in Singapore on June 29, 2011. These 'Supertrees' are vertical gardens, embedded with environmentally sustainable functions


When the coffee plantation owner working with Asomobi, a woman-led coffee cooperative, decided to plant trees next to his grove in El Carmen, Costa Rica, the coffee plants thrived, wildlife returned to the area and a once dry spring began producing water again, May 2007. The area buffers La Amistad National Park.


People walk past photovoltaic (solar) panels at a PV Kraftwerker Galaxy Energy stand during the 'Intersolar' Europe trade fair in Munich, Germany, June 13, 2012.


A worker climbs the ladder to a windmill at Horns Rev 2, the world's largest wind farm, 19 miles off the west coast of Denmark near Esbjerg in this Sept. 15, 2009 file photo. Now a world leader in wind power, Denmark gets a quarter of its electricity from wind and aims to increase that share to 50 percent by 2020.


A cow stands near windmills at an eolic farm in Cerro de Hula, 15 miles south of Tegucigalpa on April 21, 2012. The Cerro de Hula is Central America's largest wind farm with a capacity of 102 MW, according to local media.


This April 20, 2012, photo shows free reusable metal water bottles to be distributed to any student who signs a pledge to not use bottled water for personal use and to use tap water whenever possible in order to receive a free reusable metal bottle at a table in Hubbard Park in Iowa City.

Now, if we could just get on the bandwagon (yes, we're doing some, but given our wealthy status, not nearly enough) and fight Big Oil and Big Coal and Big Natural Gas, maybge we could make some progress. Hey, I can dream...


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Friday, August 3, 2012 5:14 PM

PIRATENEWS

John Lee, conspiracy therapist at Hollywood award-winner History Channel-mocked SNL-spoofed PirateNew.org wooHOO!!!!!!




Noooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo.










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Saturday, August 4, 2012 4:52 PM

6IXSTRINGJACK


Quote:

Originally posted by NewOldBrownCoat:
Quote:

Originally posted by 6IXSTRINGJACK:


In just over 2 years I had turned 13k into 15.6k in my Roth IRA. I thought I was the Wall Street Kid.... So when the DOW dropped from around 15k down to 12k, I thought it would be a good time to invest in a name brand like GE. It topped out at about 42 bucks a share and I figured I was getting a bargain at 27 bucks a share. I also spent just about as much on US Bankcorp, which was giving a 5.25% dividend when savings accounts were giving less than 1%. Shortly after about 8k in those 2 purchases, the bottom fell out and I saw my 13k (plus 2.6k) turn into just over 6k in about 8 months. (This was money I'd already paid taxes on and didn't have a company match on either).

I rode it out. I didn't panic sell because I didn't need the money at the time. By the time I sold both of those stocks, they weren't worth as much as I'd paid for them, but they recovered greatly. My other big winners on the side lines helped push my final outcome to 13.2k. 200 bucks interest on 13k isn't too shabby for 4 years in this climate.




I just did the quick math. $200 interest on 13,000 over 4 year is .38 % a year simple interest, 1.5 + a tiny decimal % over the 4 years total. Depending on just what ammount under 1% those savings accounts were paying, you might have been better off overall.



No doubt I did make out, but that's only because I held on to my losers as well as my winners....

I was thrilled to see when I cashed out that I was still up 200 bucks.... No doubt more than I would have made in a bank in those 4 years, but easily 2,100 dollars less than my "peak".

The market, for people like you and I, is a scary place to live in. Sure... when times are good and everything is going up, it's all gravy.

Don't think you're smarter than people who work for the man and have 8 years of college under their belt though.

How many of them have a house that's paid for? I'm guessing ZERO.

As soon as I get my first real gig in this chapter in my life I'll be set....

I pay only 75 bucks now for basic bills and necessities over what I paid for rent when I was making 55k+ a year.


Give me a job today making 12-13 bucks an hour with health benefits and a 100% match on 3% 401k and I might as well have been a nobody winning the lotto.

In the mean time, my 8 buck an hour job pays the bills, and nothing more...

Tomorrow is another day....


"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." ~Shepherd Book

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Sunday, August 26, 2012 3:07 PM

1KIKI

Today, scientists sound the alarm on other environmental dangers. Vested interests still hire their own scientists to confuse the issue. But in the end, nature will not be fooled. Neil deGrasse Tyson


Just re solar power - I caught this tidbit from a recent article


http://www.laboratoryequipment.com/news/2012/08/common-metals-can-make
-cheap-sustainable-solar-panels?et_cid=2808538&et_rid=290390323&linkid=http%3a%2f%2fwww.laboratoryequipment.com%2fnews%2f2012%2f08%2fcommon-metals-can-make-cheap-sustainable-solar-panels


With enough sunlight falling on home roofs to supply AT LEAST HALF of America’s electricity ... (emphasis mine)

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