Germany likes it's wood au-naturale... by Wishimay

Quote:
Originally posted by Wishimay: http://news.yahoo.com/german-court-outlaws-religious-circumcision-1727
28400.html

I can see what they are saying, I'll be the first to say that I don't approve of people popping out a girl and then getting it's ears pierced 20 minutes later when it doesn't really have a say, and though I think this is completely different than female circumcision... I'm ALL for male circumcision...I REALLY don't like men un-clipped...Looks just...wrong... Complete and TOTAL turn-off, for me, anyway. Seems odd that they base the whole thing on a botch job were the kid didn't die?

Cue Piratenews....I don't suppose me saying WE'VE HEARD IT ALREADY!!! will stop him, hmmm?

You don't have to die for something to be harmful. There can be pretty horrible complications to male circumcision (the correct term for the procedure on females is quite rightfully 'mutilation') resulting in loss of entire parts of the penis, which is not lethal but horrific for the person concerned. Though, admittedly, such cases are rare. Luckily.

I have no problem with the ruling. I understand why it upsets those whose religions traditions are affected but I cannot find it in myself to place their feelings above principles of physical integrity.

As for personal taste... well, to each their own.

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Wednesday, June 27, 2012 6:13 AM

6IXSTRINGJACK

Quote:
Originally posted by Wishimay: http://news.yahoo.com/german-court-outlaws-religious-circumcision-1727
28400.html

I can see what they are saying, I'll be the first to say that I don't approve of people popping out a girl and then getting it's ears pierced 20 minutes later when it doesn't really have a say, and though I think this is completely different than female circumcision... I'm ALL for male circumcision...I REALLY don't like men un-clipped...Looks just...wrong... Complete and TOTAL turn-off, for me, anyway. Seems odd that they base the whole thing on a botch job were the kid didn't die?

Cue Piratenews....I don't suppose me saying WE'VE HEARD IT ALREADY!!! will stop him, hmmm?

Hey Wish,

I've always said, that aside from the muscles and hair, the most unattractive attribute a man has is his nether-regions. In high school, we had a middle eastern kid Omar that didn't have a circumcision and everyone called him "anteater"..... :smokin:

Sure, it looks totally f'd up... but at the same time I hear that 90% of sexual stimulus of the male organ was from being un-cut....

If that's true, just for the sake of "making the Johnson pretty" we have the same sexual release as a garden gnome comared to women without it.

Don't blame me for being born with my "G-spot" outside of my insides, and then having it gutted from me 8 years before my first erection because "somebody" say's it's cool.....

Imagine the furor against the same practice to go against women and remove their "g-spot", on their insides, in the same way.....

Actually... it's the perfect analogy for Government control today....

Anyone broken is worthless

Just break part of them enough and make them beg for more....

Every circumcised man grows up realizing a different sexual world than they might have otherwise....

In our atheist based world we live in, many times this decision is made without church and could be viewed as nothing more than having a PIG spayed.....

IF THERE IS NO RELIGION INVOLVED, WHY IS THE G-SPOT OF THE MALE REMOVED WITHOUT HIS CONSENT YEARS BEFORE HE CAN MAKE THAT DECISION FOR HIMSELF??????

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Wednesday, June 27, 2012 6:28 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by 6IXSTRINGJACK:

Don't blame me for being born with my "G-spot" outside of my insides, and then having it gutted from me 8 years before my first erection because "somebody" say's it's cool.....

Imagine the furor against the same practice to go against women and remove their "g-spot", on their insides, in the same way.....

I doubt that the foreskin provides a whopping 90% of all potential stimulation. That seems extreme. Not that I agree with removing any portion of potential fun from a defenseless infant or child.

That said: In terms of equivalence, forget about the g-spot. Think clitoris. That's where the fun for women is easiest and most available and, would you look at that, it's also on the outside. The most brutal form of FGM is pretty much the equivalent of cutting off the entire head of the penis, or the entire penis, let alone the foreskin. Because it removes all outside bits. Whatever furor there is to be had, you don't need to imagine it. It's actually real.

But that's not this argument. The two procedures exist on different spheres of wrongness and it's not a competition.

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Wednesday, June 27, 2012 6:34 AM

6IXSTRINGJACK

There is ZERO comparison here AR....

I don't give a shit if the foreskin only gave 10% more pleasure.....

If we were up in your pussy after you were 1 month old snipping away at shit, you'd be bringing an army down upon it now....

The only reason why "white" girls today don't do the same is that penises look "prettier" cut.....

Fuck you AR....

I'm sure you're cool otherwise....

But as to your "whatever" attitude about males being stripped of a majority of their sexuality at birth and nobody standing up for them but "6ix"......

Well....

Fuck you.....

Quote:
Originally posted by AgentRouka:
Quote:
Originally posted by 6IXSTRINGJACK:

Don't blame me for being born with my "G-spot" outside of my insides, and then having it gutted from me 8 years before my first erection because "somebody" say's it's cool.....

Imagine the furor against the same practice to go against women and remove their "g-spot", on their insides, in the same way.....

I doubt that the foreskin provides a whopping 90% of all potential stimulation. That seems extreme. Not that I agree with removing any portion of potential fun from a defenseless infant or child.

That said: In terms of equivalence, forget about the g-spot. Think clitoris. That's where the fun for women is easiest and most available and, would you look at that, it's also on the outside. The most brutal form of FGM is pretty much the equivalent of cutting off the entire head of the penis, or the entire penis, let alone the foreskin. Because it removes all outside bits. Whatever furor there is to be had, you don't need to imagine it. It's actually real.

But that's not this argument. The two procedures exist on different spheres of wrongness and it's not a competition.

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Wednesday, June 27, 2012 6:34 AM

6IXSTRINGJACK

Double post....

Cubs beat the Mets 2 days in a row... Awesome :smokin:

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Wednesday, June 27, 2012 6:52 AM

Uh, did you READ my earlier post??

Where did I say that I approve of circumcision? That I have any opinion whatsoever on penis aesthetics? That I find any amount of pleasure reduction acceptable? I said THE OPPOSITE.

Seriously, READ before you reply.

(Incidentally, yeah, I would be up in arms about FGM. I AM. Because it really happens. And yes, there IS no comparing it with routine male circumcision. So stop talking about it as something hypothetical. It actually happens.)

I don't argue that circumcision reduces sensation. I find the 90% claim highly exaggerated, but AGAIN, I state that it's not relevant to the argument. It's just probably inaccurate.

Also, what does "white" have to do with it?

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Wednesday, June 27, 2012 7:15 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)

Quote:
Originally posted by AgentRouka: Uh, did you READ my earlier post??

Also, what does "white" have to do with it?

About as much as "atheists" have to do with it.

Jack, I'm pretty sure circumcision didn't start with atheists. Think I read that in a book somewhere. ;)

"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence [sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero

"I've not watched the video either, or am incapable of intellectually dealing with the substance of this thread, so I'll instead act like a juvenile and claim victory..." - Rappy

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Wednesday, June 27, 2012 7:57 AM

PIZMOBEACH

... fully loaded, safety off...

Quote:
Originally posted by 6IXSTRINGJACK: There is ZERO comparison here AR....

I don't give a shit if the foreskin only gave 10% more pleasure.....

If we were up in your pussy after you were 1 month old snipping away at shit, you'd be bringing an army down upon it now....

The only reason why "white" girls today don't do the same is that penises look "prettier" cut.....

Fuck you AR....

I'm sure you're cool otherwise....

But as to your "whatever" attitude about males being stripped of a majority of their sexuality at birth and nobody standing up for them but "6ix"......

Well....

Fuck you.....

Speaking of snippy penises...

Scifi movie music + Firefly dialogue clips, 24 hours a day - http://www.scifiradio.com

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Wednesday, June 27, 2012 8:46 AM

Heh.

So how many of you guys aren't or have *cough* friends that aren't? Do you know anyone that is circumcised and regrets it? 'Cause I think all of the guys I know ARE and they don't seem to have a problem getting off....if fact if anything...several have the "getting there a little tooo quick" problem...

Don't think they miss that piece of skin one bit...

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Wednesday, June 27, 2012 8:49 AM

DALEK!

I am. All three of my sons are, and it was not done for looks or religious reasons.

I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.

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Wednesday, June 27, 2012 8:59 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by 6IXSTRINGJACK:

I've always said, that aside from the muscles and hair, the most unattractive attribute a man has is his nether-regions.

Goes for women, too. I don't know WHERE they dig up some of these girls in pornos- between the "soggy grilled cheese sandwhich" and the "misshapen tortilla"... It's a wonder people get it on at all...

I've always though a penis should be retractable and that women should have "loading bay doors" that open and close... Would fix a few things like it would make rape a hellofa lot harder to carry out...

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Wednesday, June 27, 2012 9:14 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by m52nickerson: I am. All three of my sons are, and it was not done for looks or religious reasons.

Ok, well ya ain't gotta answer 'cause I know that's a wee bit personal, but I am forced to guess skin issues like rashes or bacterial complications with yourself or women? I'm susceptible to UTI's myself, so I'd have to think that an uncircumcised parter would have to be waay more diligent than I think most men would be willing to be.

I can't imagine what people did before anti-biotics... I've had a dozen infections and was sooooo grateful to them EVERY DARN TIME... I'd never have made it in Medieval days... and yes, I have tried to wait out sinus infections before and NOT do the pills..I had problems breathing for a YEAR after that... I'll NOT do it again...

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Wednesday, June 27, 2012 9:14 AM

Gee whiz! *g* I cannot be the only person in the world who doesn't think genitalia are ugly...

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Wednesday, June 27, 2012 9:23 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by AgentRouka: Gee whiz! I cannot be the only person in the world who doesn't think genitalia are ugly...

Yer not one of them fuzzy wuzzy's that croon "Oh the human body is soo beautiful in all it's forms" are ya? Have you seen cellulite??? I call my stretch marks "racing stripes" but it sure don't mean I think they are pretty. Humanity CAN be beautiful in it's own grace, but I don't think anybody spongebathing an old or massively obese person in a nursing home would say ANY part of that is beautiful.....

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Wednesday, June 27, 2012 9:27 AM

DALEK!

Quote:
Originally posted by Wishimay: Ok, well ya ain't gotta answer 'cause I know that's a wee bit personal, but I am forced to guess skin issues like rashes or bacterial complications with yourself or women? I'm susceptible to UTI's myself, so I'd have to think that an uncircumcised parter would have to be waay more diligent than I think most men would be willing to be.

No complications. It was a decision my wife and I made after talking with our pediatrician and looking at a bunch of studies. There are a wide range of potential medical benefits from circumcision.

A big factor was our pediatrician telling us that in all her years of practice the only problems with penises she had seen were in uncircumcised boys.

I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.

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Wednesday, June 27, 2012 9:36 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Wishimay:
Quote:
Originally posted by AgentRouka: Gee whiz! I cannot be the only person in the world who doesn't think genitalia are ugly...

Yer not one of them fuzzy wuzzy's that croon "Oh the human body is soo beautiful in all it's forms" are ya? Have you seen cellulite??? I call my stretch marks "racing stripes" but it sure don't mean I think they are pretty. Humanity CAN be beautiful in it's own grace, but I don't think anybody spongebathing an old or massively obese person in a nursing home would say ANY part of that is beautiful.....

Nah, it's not based on principle. There are physical forms I find unsightly, and there is certainly a wide spectrum between devastatingly beautiful and merely okay, though I am much more particular about faces than I am about bodies. I just honestly don't consider human dangly bits to be revolting. :)

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Wednesday, June 27, 2012 9:44 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by m52nickerson:

No complications. It was a decision my wife and I made after talking with our pediatrician and looking at a bunch of studies. There are a wide range of potential medical benefits from circumcision.

A big factor was our pediatrician telling us that in all her years of practice the only problems with penises she had seen were in uncircumcised boys.

That's interesting! What were the potential complications of not circumcising? And thank you for sharing, btw.

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Wednesday, June 27, 2012 11:22 AM

DALEK!

Quote:
Originally posted by AgentRouka: That's interesting! What were the potential complications of not circumcising? And thank you for sharing, btw.

The most quoted is a decrease chance of urinary track infection. This risk is small, but the studies do show a decrease in circumcised infants.

Phimosis, which is a tightening of foreskin, can occur. It can be treated in different ways including circumcision later on, but it is painful. While many reported cases of phimosis maybe misdiagnosed it is still a problem seen in a small number of young boys.

Cancer of the penis, while rare is almost never seen in circumcised males. Studies do suggest that proper hygiene may play a role in reducing the risk of penile cancer, the issue is this cancer is typically aggressive and often results in the loss of the penis.

Than you have recent studies that show circumcised males are slightly less likely to contract HIV and other STDs. In fact the World Health Organization is recommending circumcision in Africa to combat the HIV problem.

Some studies have also indicated that women whose sexual partners are circumcised have a lower risk of cervical cancer. These are less than stellar studies, but do add something to think about.

How much benefit a person gets is still up to debate. I personally think the benefits slightly outweigh the risks overall, more so when you have a good doctor performing the circumcision.

That being said, I understand why some parents don't want to have it done, and I'm cool with that as well. I'm not an advocate for circumcision, just that parents should have the choice.

I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.

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Wednesday, June 27, 2012 1:31 PM

Probably the most sane argument I've read on here in a while. Thumbs up!

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Wednesday, June 27, 2012 2:15 PM

DEVERSE

Hey, Ive been in a firefight before! Well, I was in a fire. Actually, I was fired from a fry-cook opportunity.

My understanding of making such a decision is similar to M52NICKERSON's. No real overwhelming proof of one side over the other, and really, its a personal decision - or should be.

As for the less sensitivity during sex - I am reminded of the man who stated "I just had the worst sex I ever had in my life" and his friend asked, "So how was it?", to which the man replied, "Fantastic!". I really wonder how one can enjoy sex more than another because of a piece of skin or how that decision is made. On second thought, in all that is holy, please do not tell me about how that decision is made - I really do not want to know.

As for the court decision - I guess senile old men wearing dresses and making idiotic decisions isn't exclusive to North American Supreme Courts. "The fundamental right of the child to bodily integrity outweighed the fundamental rights of the parents" "This change (of body integrity) contravenes the interests of the child to decide later on his religious beliefs."

Say what?

So now the state is in charge of making any and all such decisions until the child becomes of legal age? Good grief. I suppose they expect a child who wants this done to practice their religious freedom will now have to make an application to the court or will the child have to wait til they are "legal" adult age? Must be awful slow in the German Courts. Of course, how many Doctors will be willing to do this on an adult?

Oh let the sun beat down upon my face With stars to fill my dream I am a traveler of both time and space To be where I have been

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Wednesday, June 27, 2012 2:36 PM

MAL4PREZ

The only thing that could come close to deciding the matter is the observations of men who have experienced life both ways. But even that is a bit of a judgement call, since the man's experience may be colored by his opinion of how he looks. I admit, I'm thinking of a certain episode of Sex and the City in which a man gets The Cut so he'll look prettier, then dumps his girlfriend so he can go show off his new look. That's probably not very realistic.

I don't disagree with Germany's decision though. I don't think anyone's body should be altered without them having a say. Permanently altering a boy's privates when he's helpless has always seemed wrong to me, though I can see where the reported health benefits could sway a parent.

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Wednesday, June 27, 2012 3:17 PM

DALEK!

Quote:
Originally posted by mal4prez: The only thing that could come close to deciding the matter is the observations of men who have experienced life both ways.

Not really. Getting a circumcision later in life in nowhere near the same as having on just after birth.

I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.

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Wednesday, June 27, 2012 4:04 PM

RIVERTAM1

Curse your sudden but inevitable betrayl!

Quote:
Originally posted by Wishimay: Heh.

So how many of you guys aren't or have *cough* friends that aren't? Do you know anyone that is circumcised and regrets it? 'Cause I think all of the guys I know ARE and they don't seem to have a problem getting off....if fact if anything...several have the "getting there a little tooo quick" problem...

Don't think they miss that piece of skin one bit...

I never asked any of my guy friends... that would be slightly wierd...

The human body can be drained of blood in 8.6 seconds, given adequate vacuuming systems.

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Wednesday, June 27, 2012 4:15 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by DEVERSE:

You and Riv have wandered outside the established chat paramiters...DANGER WILL ROBINSON!!

Just kiddin'

XXX to ya both!

To the rest of the people here in RWED, these are two of the best FFans you'll ever meet...

Go easy on 'em, like :wink:

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Wednesday, June 27, 2012 4:29 PM

MAL4PREZ

Quote:
Originally posted by m52nickerson:
Quote:
Originally posted by mal4prez: The only thing that could come close to deciding the matter is the observations of men who have experienced life both ways.

Not really. Getting a circumcision later in life in nowhere near the same as having on just after birth.

I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.

Hmm. I have no penis, so I can't really know. But the scientist in me says we can't really know unless we get the input of individuals who have experienced sex (and other things, like hygiene) with and without a foreskin. Otherwise, this 10% versus 90% stuff is pure nonsense.

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Wednesday, June 27, 2012 4:38 PM

DALEK!

Quote:
Originally posted by mal4prez: Hmm. I have no penis, so I can't really know. But the scientist in me says we can only really know if we get the input of individuals who have experienced sex (and other things, like hygiene) with and without a foreskin. Otherwise, this 10% versus 90% stuff is pure nonsense.

We can get the input from those people, with the understanding that their experience is still going to be different from that of a man who was circumcised as an infant. You have to remember children heal much faster and better than adults. I also believe that keratinization of the gland in infants is a bit different than that of adults.

Now there have been studies that have shown that intact men do have more sensitive penises than circumcised men. Even with that more sensation does not equal more please. There are plenty of women who can't stand direct stimulation of the clitoris. Some men do not like direct stimulation of the gland.

I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.

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Wednesday, June 27, 2012 4:53 PM

MAL4PREZ

Quote:
Originally posted by m52nickerson:
Quote:
Originally posted by mal4prez: Hmm. I have no penis, so I can't really know. But the scientist in me says we can only really know if we get the input of individuals who have experienced sex (and other things, like hygiene) with and without a foreskin. Otherwise, this 10% versus 90% stuff is pure nonsense.

We can get the input from those people, with the understanding that their experience is still going to be different from that of a man who was circumcised as an infant. You have to remember children heal much faster and better than adults. I also believe that keratinization of the gland in infants is a bit different than that of adults.

Now there have been studies that have shown that intact men do have more sensitive penises than circumcised men. Even with that more sensation does not equal more please. There are plenty of women who can't stand direct stimulation of the clitoris. Some men do not like direct stimulation of the gland.

I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.

That's the idea I have, picked up by little bits and pieces of info over the years. Uncut seems to be more sensitive, but not to the extent the cut means numb. Far from it, in my experience.

It would be informative to have some kind of direct comparison, even as limited as that must be. Some men out there must have something to say.

Anyway, cut men are hardly swearing off sex. It doesn't seem that they've lost so very much.

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Wednesday, June 27, 2012 5:02 PM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Hello,

Sex is mostly between the ears.

I am cut, my son is not. There didn't seem to be any compelling reason beyond custom to have the procedure.

I'm kind of glad I didn't do it. It can be up to him, and there are indeed doctors who will do the job on adults who request it.

Really, though, I can't imagine a person of value who would leave a lover because of such a detail. And if they would put the breaks on intimacy because of it, it's probably for the best that such a pair never had intercourse anyway.

--Anthony

Note to Self: Raptor - women who want to control their reproductive processes are sluts. Wulf - Niki is a stupid fucking bitch who should hurry up and die. Never forget what these men are. “The stupid neither forgive nor forget; the naive forgive and forget; the wise forgive but do not forget.” -Thomas Szasz

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Wednesday, June 27, 2012 5:21 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by ANTHONYT:

Really, though, I can't imagine a person of value who would leave a lover because of such a detail. And if they would put the breaks on intimacy because of it, it's probably for the best that such a pair never had intercourse anyway.

--Anthony

Sex is pretty important to most relationships, I hear. And I don't think a person should be deemed "valueless" for things they find attractive or not. I don't think a lot of that is up to us. Some people have balloon sexual fetishes, or foot fetishes...I don't get either one, and I may find them odd, but I don't BLAME them for what they like as long as they ain't hurting other people...

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Wednesday, June 27, 2012 5:30 PM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Quote:
Sex is pretty important to most relationships, I hear. And I don't think a person should be deemed "valueless" for things they find attractive or not. I don't think a lot of that is up to us. Some people have balloon sexual fetishes, or foot fetishes...I don't get either one, and I may find them odd, but I don't BLAME them for what they like as long as they ain't hurting other people...

Hello,

Sex is pretty important to most people involved in sexual relationships. So I wonder what value you think should be held for such a person in that context?

Try to imagine falling in love with someone and getting intimate only to be shut down and told your vagina is too unattractive for copulation. How much value would you place on this person in the context of your relationship? Would you still value them as a romantic partner?

I also find it rather shallow to be attracted to someone, connect with them enough to have sex, then find the shape of their genitals offputting for some superficial aesthetic and then reject the person. I don't even think I'd want to be friends with such an individual, so I can't imagine any interpersonal value I'd assign to them. I rather think I'd be awfully emotionally hurt.

--Anthony

Note to Self: Raptor - women who want to control their reproductive processes are sluts. Wulf - Niki is a stupid fucking bitch who should hurry up and die. Never forget what these men are. “The stupid neither forgive nor forget; the naive forgive and forget; the wise forgive but do not forget.” -Thomas Szasz

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Wednesday, June 27, 2012 6:19 PM

RIONAEIRE

Beir bua agus beannacht

I think parents should choose which ever they want. I'm not opposed to circumsision, the guys who don't have their forskin still dig sexin' so I doubt that the loss is felt too keenly, they still have buckets o fun.

My little brother, adopted, wasn't circumsized, but when he came to live with us we had to have it done, he was newly 4 at the time, he was constantly getting infected etc. But my little nephews aren't circumsized and they haven't had any trouble so far. If I had a boychild (by accident since I'm not having babies) I would probably get it done for convenience sake in hygeine, but if people could be convincing enough I might not. I think its about 50 50 these days on it, possibly even more boys not having it done now.

I have Kathy Bates on speed dial, mwa ha ha ha (in exaggeratedly evil voice)

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya.

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Wednesday, June 27, 2012 6:44 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by ANTHONYT:

I also find it rather shallow to be attracted to someone, connect with them enough to have sex, then find the shape of their genitals offputting for some superficial aesthetic and then reject the person. --Anthony

For once Riona has hit the nail on the head, it's not completely about aesthetics, for me, I've always equated uncircumsized to "Harboring Bacteria." Especially because I'm sensative. And then there's the whole "Sex with that alien thing below yer waist? I don't think so" I don't think it is something I COULD get past, since a relationship would mean I would be fighting down my repulsion regularly. Fortunately, that never came up. For what it's worth, If I felt a relationship was important enough, I would consider body modification. You still rot the same way when yer dead, so I don't much care what I do to it now...

Oh, and it is ALWAYS a good idea to discuss such things BEFORE intimacy, along with "Are all your organs what you dress like, and do you have any extra bits I should know about??? Interestingly enough, multiple penises (penii??)on one person sound fun, just as long as they are all pretty :wink: Heh heh heh.

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Wednesday, June 27, 2012 6:55 PM

RIONAEIRE

Beir bua agus beannacht

A Wish a chara, I think we agree on things more often than either of us would like to admit. :)))

Anthony, I guess its all okay because Wish's husband is circumsized, and that's the only person's anatomy that really matters to her I'd reckon. So its all okay. But yeah, I think people would talk about it before they got ready to have sex?

I have Kathy Bates on speed dial, mwa ha ha ha (in exaggeratedly evil voice)

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya.

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Wednesday, June 27, 2012 8:55 PM

MAGONSDAUGHTER

Quote:
Originally posted by Wishimay: Heh.

So how many of you guys aren't or have *cough* friends that aren't? Do you know anyone that is circumcised and regrets it? 'Cause I think all of the guys I know ARE and they don't seem to have a problem getting off....if fact if anything...several have the "getting there a little tooo quick" problem...

Don't think they miss that piece of skin one bit...

Circumcision is not usually practiced here anymore, unless you are Jewish. So most males under 30 would still have their foreskin, whereas older males do not.

If it is not necessary, then why do it? Really the medical arguments do not hold up, you just have to learn basic hygiene. This about tradition and expectations about appearance, and the same discussions are had re female circumcision, but do not hold up to logic either.

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Wednesday, June 27, 2012 9:04 PM

MAGONSDAUGHTER

Quote:
Originally posted by Wishimay:

Oh, and it is ALWAYS a good idea to discuss such things BEFORE intimacy, along with "Are all your organs what you dress like, and do you have any extra bits I should know about??? Interestingly enough, multiple penises (penii??)on one person sound fun,

I'm with Anthony on this one. I think that would be a really gross conversation and I would run a mile if someone asked me intimate details like these before I was intimate with them.

I have had partners who have both scenarios, so it clearly is not on my list of important priorities.

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Thursday, June 28, 2012 3:16 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by DEVERSE: My understanding of making such a decision is similar to M52NICKERSON's. No real overwhelming proof of one side over the other, and really, its a personal decision - or should be.

I agree that it should be a personal decision. But I think it's fair that the courts decided that the person in question is the child, not the parents.

Quote:

As for the court decision - I guess senile old men wearing dresses and making idiotic decisions isn't exclusive to North American Supreme Courts. "The fundamental right of the child to bodily integrity outweighed the fundamental rights of the parents" "This change (of body integrity) contravenes the interests of the child to decide later on his religious beliefs."

Say what?

So now the state is in charge of making any and all such decisions until the child becomes of legal age? Good grief. I suppose they expect a child who wants this done to practice their religious freedom will now have to make an application to the court or will the child have to wait til they are "legal" adult age? Must be awful slow in the German Courts. Of course, how many Doctors will be willing to do this on an adult?

How does placing priority on the child's physical integrity equal all decision-making being taken away from the parents? It's one very specific decision that is affected. Because it causes an irreversibel change in the child's body. An infant or toddler cannot voice any kind of reasoned input in this decision. An older child or teenager can. That's the important part. It's not about restricting the rights of parents but elevating the rights of children.

And there are plenty of doctors willing to do the procedure on an adult. It's a routine procedure and with an adult there is zero legal ambiguity.

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Thursday, June 28, 2012 3:19 AM

M52Nickerson,

thank you very much for the list of complications. I really appreciate it.

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Thursday, June 28, 2012 3:39 AM

BYTEMITE

I think it's immoral whether it's done to men or women. Religious people can go right on doing it if they want, and I can go right on thinking it's barbaric.

That said, I'm out of here before my "blarg what did I just read" reaction sets in.

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Thursday, June 28, 2012 7:46 AM

RIONAEIRE

Beir bua agus beannacht

I guess I should specify that I'm never okay with doing it to females because the express purpose is to make sex no fun for them, which is mean. But men who are circumsized still have rutting fun so I don't see it as a problem for them. BTW I don't reckon you'd find too many adults who volentarily go in to have it done, the point of getting it done when you're young is that it doesn't hurt as bad, you won't remember it anyway and your body will adapt normally, whereas when you have it done as an adult it might indeed decrease your pleasure enough to matter.

I have Kathy Bates on speed dial, mwa ha ha ha (in exaggeratedly evil voice)

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya.

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Thursday, June 28, 2012 8:05 AM

But even if circumsized men still have enough fun, how is it fair to make that choice for a kid? Why do parents get to decide how much pleasure decrease is okay?

There are studies that show that women who have had even the severest form of FGM done to them can still orgasm (though it's obviously much harder to achieve, methinks, and possibly rare) so medical complications aside, this makes it a matter of degrees of pleasure that are permitted to be taken away.

The ease with which this aspect of the subject is dismissed makes me a little uncomfortable. Sexual pleasure may be easier for men, but that doesn't mean involuntary reduction of it is not a form of violation. Even if the kid never knows the difference. If they did, as you say, they might reasonably not choose the procedure.

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Thursday, June 28, 2012 12:07 PM

BYTEMITE

Quote:
the point of getting it done when you're young is that it doesn't hurt as bad, you won't remember it anyway and your body will adapt normally

I would like to point out that "you won't remember this anyway" is not the best justification for non-consensual surgery ever.

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Thursday, June 28, 2012 6:06 PM

FREMDFIRMA

Quote:
Originally posted by Wishimay: I've always though a penis should be retractable and that women should have "loading bay doors" that open and close... Would fix a few things like it would make rape a hellofa lot harder to carry out...

S'funny - I got asked by one of my friends adult offspring as a snark, when detatching my prosthetics on the couch if *that* was detatchable too... I just grinned and said "some assembly required" - she STILL breaks out in giggles when she hears those words.

-F

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Thursday, June 28, 2012 7:01 PM