REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

Carbon dioxide levels rise to 400 ppm

POSTED BY: NIKI2
UPDATED: Thursday, June 14, 2012 15:17
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Friday, June 8, 2012 7:31 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Oh, joy. But I'm sure it's natural, and no cause for worry...
Quote:

UP, UP and away. Parts of the planet have seen levels of carbon dioxide rise above 400 parts per million for the first time. Although it's largely symbolic, the milestone is a stark reminder of humanity's powerful influence on the atmosphere.

"During the month of April, the mean was over 400 ppm for the first time, throughout the Arctic," says Pieter Tans of the US National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration's Earth System Research Laboratory in Boulder, Colorado. CO2 levels reach an annual peak around April as the gas is released by respiration, and then fall over the summer as plants suck it up. As a result, the 2012 average will be a little lower, at about 393 ppm.

Nevertheless, Tans says global levels will top 400 ppm in a few years.

The Arctic is not the only place seeing record levels. The Japan Meteorological Agency has reported levels above 400 ppm for both March and April at a monitoring station in Ofunato, according to local media. http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg21428681.800-carbon-dioxide-leve
ls-reach-a-new-milestone.html


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Friday, June 8, 2012 9:22 AM

PIRATENEWS

John Lee, conspiracy therapist at Hollywood award-winner History Channel-mocked SNL-spoofed PirateNew.org wooHOO!!!!!!


Good. Plants require CO2 or they will all DIE.

When plants die, all humans and animals will DIE.

No CO2 and WE ALL DIE.

Low CO2 is what killed the dinosaurs. As in EXTINCT.

Curse your not so sudden yet inevitable betrayal.

Quote:

Dinosaurs Agree: The Earth Loves CO2!

The dinosaur skeletons and fleshed-out reconstructions we see in museums tower over their viewers. How and why did these massive creatures grow so monstrous?

The answer is probably a lot of hot air. At least, that’s what the research of Sara Decherd, a doctoral student in marine, earth and atmospheric sciences at North Carolina State University, suggests.

Decherd studies the ecology of the Cretaceous period, some 160 million years ago, when Earth’s atmosphere contained more oxygen and more carbon dioxide and was, in her words, “a hothouse.” She believes, and is working to demonstrate, that this richer atmosphere helped plants grow bigger and faster. With lots of food, herbivorous dinosaurs thrived -- and became lumbering prey for their carnivorous cousins.

Both plant-eaters and meat-eaters grew fearsome, in effect, because food was plentiful.

Decherd’s research doesn’t focus on the dinosaurs, though, but on the role of Earth’s atmosphere on plant life. She’s using one of the most ancient plants, the Ginko biloba tree, to test her hypothesis.

“Research has shown that elevated carbon dioxide levels result in higher productivity, faster photosynthetic and growth rates, and greater rates of carbohydrate synthesis,” she says. “My work involves measuring how modern ginko trees react to Cretaceous-like atmospheres, and how the higher levels of oxygen and carbon dioxide affect the leaves’ nutritive value and digestibility. We’re also comparing these experimental ginko leaves with fossilized ginko leaves from the Cretaceous period to help verify our work.”

http://www.clearlynewmexico.com/?p=2844
http://www.ncsu.edu/news/press_releases/04_01/026.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dinosaur



Everybody knows the reason CO2 was so high during the dinosaurs was because the civilized reptilians poisoned the atmosphere with their industrial waste. We have the same problem today.




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Friday, June 8, 2012 9:46 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!



7 years since Katrina, Rita et al. AlGore told us this was just the start, to get use to lots of storms, and bigger.

*crickets*

Anthony is a lying sack of go-se, and he knows it.
" We're all just folk. " - Mal

" AU, that was great, LOL!! " - Chrisisall

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Friday, June 8, 2012 10:47 AM

CHRISISALL


You'll be laughing all the way to the food shortages, AU.

Chrisisall, wearing a frilly Mal thing on his head, and ready to shoot unarmed, full-body armoured Operatives

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Friday, June 8, 2012 10:53 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by chrisisall:
You'll be laughing all the way to the food shortages, AU.

Chrisisall, wearing a frilly Mal thing on his head, and ready to shoot unarmed, full-body armoured Operatives



Plants need C02, Chris. It'll help them thrive. And warmer weather will mean longer growing seasons, too. To the contrary, if managed properly, food will be the least of our problems.


" We're all just folk. " - Mal

" AU, that was great, LOL!! " - Chrisisall

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Friday, June 8, 2012 11:39 AM

BYTEMITE


Quote:

Low CO2 is what killed the dinosaurs. As in EXTINCT.


Um. Probably not. There's lots of geological indicators from ocean sediments, fossils, and organic compound analysis that CO2 was over 600 ppm in the Cretaceous. Many of the oil fields we can find nowadays are either from the Cretaceous or from the Carboniferous, the two likely highest carbon periods in geologic history. Also, there are a number of mesozoic plant species - or descendents of those plant species - that survive to modern times, whereas a no carbon dioxide atmosphere would kill everything back to microbes.

However, I'll also say that oxygen levels were also higher, so for plants it kind of balanced out (oxygen competes with CO2 in the carbon fixing cycle), but it meant that HUGE insects could exist, because insects breathe using oxygen gradients across their exoskeleton and through their bodies.

Quote:

Everybody knows the reason CO2 was so high during the dinosaurs was because the civilized reptilians poisoned the atmosphere with their industrial waste. We have the same problem today.


...? Combination of factors. Increased volcanism for one (coincidential, but there's ample evidence for this) and also swamp-like conditions in much of the northern hemisphere (direct correlation). Imagine, if you will, large swaths of North America being like the mangrove forests and the everglades, and all the decomposing organic material fermenting, creating big pockets of buried methane and CO2 constantly bubbling up.

The increased oxygen may have been the result of overactive photosynthesis in response, until the values leveled out due to the chemical competition I mentioned.

Also, civilized avians. Dinosaurs were warmblooded, and had feathery insulation. Think of them like big huge ostriches.

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Friday, June 8, 2012 11:47 AM

BYTEMITE


Quote:



7 years since Katrina, Rita et al. AlGore told us this was just the start, to get use to lots of storms, and bigger.

*crickets*



Last year was the worst and most costly/damaging tornado outbreak season on record in the US.

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Friday, June 8, 2012 11:54 AM

KPO

"Love is natural and real. But not for you my love. Not tonight my love..."


Auraptor, PirateNews,

Plant life was doing just fine before the Industrial Revolution.

It's not personal. It's just war.

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Friday, June 8, 2012 12:18 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by BYTEMITE:
Quote:



7 years since Katrina, Rita et al. AlGore told us this was just the start, to get use to lots of storms, and bigger.

*crickets*



Last year was the worst and most costly/damaging tornado outbreak season on record in the US.



Tornadoes aren't hurricanes, are they ?

No, they aren't.

KPO... planet life was doing just fine 100 million years ago too. Your point ?


" We're all just folk. " - Mal

" AU, that was great, LOL!! " - Chrisisall

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Friday, June 8, 2012 1:02 PM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by BYTEMITE:
Last year was the worst and most costly/damaging tornado outbreak season on record in the US.

Oh PLEASE Byte, tornadoes aren't weather, are they?
They're not influenced by climate change... they are caused by... umm, SUN SPOTS!
And loose neutrinos from quasars!

Trying to out A-hole the A-holes, but it doesn't seem to be working, heh heh.

Chrisisall, wearing a frilly Mal thing on his head, and ready to shoot unarmed, full-body armoured Operatives

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Friday, June 8, 2012 1:03 PM

BYTEMITE


They do however form in accordance with very large and nasty supercell thunderSTORMS, so if we were warned about STORMS (not just hurricanes) getting bigger and more violent, then that is not an inaccurate description of what we have observed.

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Friday, June 8, 2012 1:20 PM

PIRATENEWS

John Lee, conspiracy therapist at Hollywood award-winner History Channel-mocked SNL-spoofed PirateNew.org wooHOO!!!!!!

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Friday, June 8, 2012 2:06 PM

6IXSTRINGJACK


Seriously, if you want to reduce CO2 and Methane emissions, make good beef and steak affordable again so my weekly dinner diet doesn't consist 90% of processed 4 meat pizza and mac-and-cheese with chili and bean dip.

I don't have IBS.... but you wouldn't know it on my bad days....

My poor A-Hole....... :(

It's being raped from the inside by cheap Aldi food on a daily basis....

Those guys getting unwillingly pounded mercilessly from behind on OZ back in the day don't have shit on what a 100% Aldi diet will do to your sphincter from the inside.


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Friday, June 8, 2012 2:27 PM

KPO

"Love is natural and real. But not for you my love. Not tonight my love..."


Quote:

KPO... planet life was doing just fine 100 million years ago too. Your point ?


Nothing's ever easy with you, is it Auraptor? I was responding to this:

Quote:

Plants need C02, Chris. It'll help them thrive.


Humans don't need to 'help' plant life a tiny bit by adding millions of tonnes of CO2 to the atmosphere. Certainly not at the cost of rising sea levels, ocean acidification, and climate change, and the great damage to plant, animal, human life that this will cause.

It's not personal. It's just war.

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Friday, June 8, 2012 2:30 PM

KPO

"Love is natural and real. But not for you my love. Not tonight my love..."


Quote:

Originally posted by 6IXSTRINGJACK:
Seriously, if you want to reduce CO2 and Methane emissions, make good beef and steak affordable again so my weekly dinner diet doesn't consist 90% of processed 4 meat pizza and mac-and-cheese with chili and bean dip.

I don't have IBS.... but you wouldn't know it on my bad days....

My poor A-Hole....... :(

It's being raped from the inside by cheap Aldi food on a daily basis....

Those guys getting unwillingly pounded mercilessly from behind on OZ back in the day don't have shit on what a 100% Aldi diet will do to your sphincter from the inside.




This isn't a laughing matter Jack.

Hehe, sphincter.

It's not personal. It's just war.

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Friday, June 8, 2012 2:59 PM

6IXSTRINGJACK


Quote:

Originally posted by kpo:
Quote:

Originally posted by 6IXSTRINGJACK:
Seriously, if you want to reduce CO2 and Methane emissions, make good beef and steak affordable again so my weekly dinner diet doesn't consist 90% of processed 4 meat pizza and mac-and-cheese with chili and bean dip.

I don't have IBS.... but you wouldn't know it on my bad days....

My poor A-Hole....... :(

It's being raped from the inside by cheap Aldi food on a daily basis....

Those guys getting unwillingly pounded mercilessly from behind on OZ back in the day don't have shit on what a 100% Aldi diet will do to your sphincter from the inside.




This isn't a laughing matter Jack.

Hehe, sphincter.

It's not personal. It's just war.




Hehe... I know... just bringing out truth with humor man....

I've spent the larger part of my last 3 months growing new baby grass on 1,600 feet of my property that was bare or full of weeds (Which have left me using over 11,000 gallons of water since the 22nd that I haven't been billed on yet!!!!), and I'm growing my new raised garden that I give instructions to how to do, if it turns out well and you'd like to see how to do it.

The first year cost me over 200 bucks in up-front costs, and being a cheapass like I am, that's WAY OVERSPENDING..... I'll figure out much cheaper ways to expand this int he future.

Either way, if I only kept this 4'x4' garden next year, there will be no man made fertilizers or huge costs. Just a few bags of cheap compost and a few cheap plants and seeds to start it up again.




We're probably allies here by proxy....

I don't have kids... I think the planet and those who are in control will ultimately implode on themselves, but I think it will be a lot later than I'm old enough to care....

In the mean time, I recycle cans and cardboard, and I'm starting my first garden.

My newest game system is a broken XBox 360 that doesn't play discs and only plays downloaded games. Aside from Goodwill, my only new clothes purchase in the retail stores in the last 3 years were new socks and drawers and a pair of black work pants.

My oldest T Shirt is a black shirt with 6 pics of Curly with "The Many Faces of a Knucklehead" on it that my Pom GF in HS bought me. It's about 14 years old now and has still held up.... (Made in America). I still get a lot of compliments on it.

Recycling is one thing man... can you wear clothes that are nearly 15 years old with pride :)

It should be easy.... aside from the flannel fad, most 90's clothes were so low key they could be worn today without anyone noticing, unlike 80s or 70s fads....



Back to the tomatoes though...

I love my fresh tomatoes more than, well to keep it PC, just about everything else...





Wish me luck!

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Friday, June 8, 2012 6:04 PM

DREAMTROVE


Just because it was 600ppm doesn't mean it wasn't low. It was coming down from 3000. I suspect that a few factors were involved, the lower temperature being one. I have my own pet theory about the rearrangement of the map due to a meteor impact. The introduction of all species to one another created new competition, that, plus massive earth destruction, led to a competitive environment in which mammals et a prospered. It took about a million years for the dinos to die out, and their giant underwater dinos and ammonites died out in the same window, due to new competitions between old species, suggesting to me map layout changes, but the massive things we witness in the sea need to be explained by any dino theory, and overwhelmingly they ignore the data.

Anyway, I'm with PN, in favor of the increase in co2. When the co2 level hits 300ppm, we enter into an ice age, or worse, a snowball earth. The more common levels are 600-700ppm, which is where we're probably headed towards. That will cause some warming, but we have an entire continent coated in ice, that's not a natural normal habitable planet state of being, is it?

Also, you can't have co2 net coming long term from decomposing plant material, because it has to get into the plant material by the exact same reaction in reverse, so it is conserved, and at the same time, any plant material has to be coming from a living plant system, which will be consuming some of it, so co2 would ultimately go down. I think it only actually goes up because of eco-collapse. The volcanic output of greenhouse gasses is nominal in comparison to the annual output of the biosphere. Kinda like our own output.

In a million years the planet will be covered in a green jungle mass, and there will be little idiots running around ritualistically acting out the dance of the new world order as they proclaim themselves to be surpreme on the earth, as they tap their butts with a bamboo stick and call it demo-krazy. They won't really have language, just a handful of bird calls like that.


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Friday, June 8, 2012 6:50 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


KPO - It's not an issue of humans 'helping' plant life. I'm just pointing out that a bit more CO2 isn't going to kill us. Or even harm us. As for ocean acidification, that is one thing I can get on board with. But as for climate change, global warming, melting polar caps... nonsense.


" We're all just folk. " - Mal

" AU, that was great, LOL!! " - Chrisisall

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Saturday, June 9, 2012 3:51 AM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:
melting polar caps... nonsense.


See, THIS is what I can't understand. The square mileage if the Arctic is LESS. It's in photographs, satellite imagery, reports from native people that live there. You can verify it in so many different ways. How can you continue with this?? Gods you really ARE as stupid as they say....

Rain in Seattle... nonsense. Just a theory/can't be proved.
No air on the Moon... nonsense. Just a theory/can't be proved.
Rappy an idiot... nonsense. Just a theory/can't be proved.



Chrisisall, wearing a frilly Mal thing on his head, and ready to shoot unarmed, full-body armoured Operatives

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Saturday, June 9, 2012 5:20 AM

BYTEMITE


Quote:


Just because it was 600ppm doesn't mean it wasn't low. It was coming down from 3000.



Maybe. I wasn't able to confirm that before I posted. But I did know for a fact that CO2 was at 600 ppm in the Cretaceous.

Quote:

Also, you can't have co2 net coming long term from decomposing plant material, because it has to get into the plant material by the exact same reaction in reverse


Photosynthesis doesn't occur at night or while the plants are dead, and depending on the plant species, you can have a LOT decomposing while other plant species are doing well. Like peat in swamps versus the mangroves around them.

You take in a lot of CO2 to grow a giant tree, but you take in less to make a tiny moss. When this dies, you can completely blow past the CO2 input with the sheer quantity of tiny plant mosses and algae dying at different times, building up into a scum, and decaying. Peat can build up twenty plus feet in some places. Under these conditions you'll release more CO2 than the plants living at the time in the area can take in.

Also, obviously, a lot of the CO2 in the plant cells is then burned to fuel their own respiration, and not expended to build more plant.

And that's when you don't add in the animals that then die in increasingly anoxic swamp waters caused by that decay. Or when the decay material ignites in buried swamp fires.

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Saturday, June 9, 2012 8:24 AM

1KIKI

Today, scientists sound the alarm on other environmental dangers. Vested interests still hire their own scientists to confuse the issue. But in the end, nature will not be fooled. Neil deGrasse Tyson


http://newscenter.berkeley.edu/2012/06/06/scientists-uncover-evidence-
of-impending-tipping-point-for-earth
/

Scientists uncover evidence of impending tipping point for Earth

BERKELEY —

A prestigious group of scientists from around the world is warning that population growth, widespread destruction of natural ecosystems, and climate change may be driving Earth toward an irreversible change in the biosphere, a planet-wide tipping point that would have destructive consequences absent adequate preparation and mitigation.

“It really will be a new world, biologically, at that point,” warns Anthony Barnosky, professor of integrative biology at the University of California, Berkeley, and lead author of a review paper appearing in the June 7 issue of the journal Nature. “The data suggests that there will be a reduction in biodiversity and severe impacts on much of what we depend on to sustain our quality of life, including, for example, fisheries, agriculture, forest products and clean water. This could happen within just a few generations.”

...

Co-author Elizabeth Hadly from Stanford University said “we may already be past these tipping points in particular regions of the world. I just returned from a trip to the high Himalayas in Nepal, where I witnessed families fighting each other with machetes for wood – wood that they would burn to cook their food in one evening. In places where governments are lacking basic infrastructure, people fend for themselves, and biodiversity suffers. We desperately need global leadership for planet Earth.”

The authors note that studies of small-scale ecosystems show that once 50-90 percent of an area has been altered, the entire ecosystem tips irreversibly into a state far different from the original, in terms of the mix of plant and animal species and their interactions. This situation typically is accompanied by species extinctions and a loss of biodiversity.

Currently, to support a population of 7 billion people, about 43 percent of Earth’s land surface has been converted to agricultural or urban use, with roads cutting through much of the remainder. The population is expected to rise to 9 billion by 2045; at that rate, current trends suggest that half Earth’s land surface will be disturbed by 2025. To Barnosky, this is disturbingly close to a global tipping point.

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Saturday, June 9, 2012 9:09 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!



Chrissy, you're sounding like that Pippy Bongstocking broad, from that 'day after' vid in Wisconsin.


" We're all just folk. " - Mal

" AU, that was great, LOL!! " - Chrisisall

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Saturday, June 9, 2012 9:46 AM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:

Chrissy, you're sounding like that Pippy Bongstocking broad, from that 'day after' vid in Wisconsin.


Ha ha, that's funny- Now why say poles aren't melting when ALL the evidence (hell, PHOTOGRAPHIC PROOF) show the Arctic receding? Is this a WORLDWIDE conspiracy??? EVERY site, EVERY reporter, EVERY photo & satellite image????

Chrisisall, wearing a frilly Mal thing on his head, and ready to shoot unarmed, full-body armoured Operatives

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Saturday, June 9, 2012 10:21 AM

BYTEMITE


1kiki: deforestation is pretty dumb, I'll grant you that. That's the sign of a civilization that's about to darwin itself to death.

Global leadership for planet earth? They were talking about that at Bilderburg, but for some very different reasons.

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Saturday, June 9, 2012 11:52 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Quote:

Co-author Elizabeth Hadly from Stanford University said “we may already be past these tipping points
Period. I'm glad I'm not younger than I am.

Chrisssss...you do realize you're attempting to talk to Raptor, don't you? ;o)


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Sunday, June 10, 2012 2:59 AM

DREAMTROVE


Byte

Yes, which would put us back to the cretaceous. I don't see a serious problem with that. Life was thriving at the time. It won't go much higher than that due to a lack of co2. Radical amounts of carbon have become sequestered in limestone due to tiny shellfish, who are slowly destroying the ecosystem. But I really don't see anything to radically abnormal here, other than a bunch of political extremists trying to use this to push world govt or global currency schemes.

It's the co2 intake and output. At some point in the past, that co2 was taken in to form every carbon bond in that plant material, you're never going to get out of it a carbon bond that you didn't put into it at some point. There's only some 6 teratons of carbon in the ecosystem, and that severely limits the ppm we can get.

Quote:



Also, obviously, a lot of the CO2 in the plant cells is then burned to fuel their own respiration, and not expended to build more plant.

And that's when you don't add in the animals that then die in increasingly anoxic swamp waters caused by that decay. Or when the decay material ignites in buried swamp fires.



There's a limited supply and the dynamic is simple. These things don't "produce" and "consume" co2 as if it was some sort of currency medium of exchange that existed in a theoretically infinite supply. plants can consume and produce co2 at varying rates, and you could have used that above to further exaggerate the theoretical cost, but in reality those rates will be determined by supply and demand, the co2 can only be exchanged with the biosphere and the atmosphere, and in so doing, we change the amount we have to spend. There is no way we can sit here giving off co2, as life forms, without taking it in, or we'll just run out of carbon. In reality, almost all of your metabolism will be burning carbohydrates that were so very recently synthesized by some photosynthetic plant. That turn over which is true for all living things, is going to exceed the extant amount of carbon in the biosphere by several times, maybe a factor of ten or more each year.

The simple fact as I see it is we can't have the co2 apocalypse because, alas, there is not enough carbon. In order to continue to decompose, we need to take in more enery, if we don't, then the whole decomposition will cease, and that trapped carbon will not become co2, but rather be pressed over time into fossil fuels. we're trapped in a closed system here. Things just can't go on producing and consuming.



Quote:

Auraptor:

KPO - It's not an issue of humans 'helping' plant life. I'm just pointing out that a bit more CO2 isn't going to kill us. Or even harm us. As for ocean acidification, that is one thing I can get on board with. But as for climate change, global warming, melting polar caps... nonsense.



I concur with Auraptor. Ice caps will shrink, but they won't disappear, not even on cretaceous earth. We're not headed for anything radical. The most curious thing that I think has happened so far ins this report I read about plants in the amazon awakening after eons of domrmacy because they required a prehistoric level of co2 in order to grow.



kiki, the population of humans is a footnote to life on earth, and would remain so even if there were a trillion of us. Anyone saying otherwise is on some suspect agenda, and by suspect I mean neofascist. There's a lot of it about, but that doesn't make it forgivable. These people want to exterminate whole ethnic groups.

As for the panic, that's about passing their radical agenda. The underlying science doesn't indicate anything, it's nonsense. That said, the biodiversity issue is a major concern, but it's not population or co2 that's doing it, it's massive ag-insudtry on a global scale, from capitalists and socialists alike. I read a while back that 400 individuals were responsible for 70% of amazon rainforest destruction, an ecosystem that once held a sizable fraction of all species of life on the planet. With the rainforest now half gone, that means like millions of species that were on this earth when you were born have been destroyed by 400 individuals.

Sorry, environmentalists barking up the wrong tree bother me, it's like people opposing one neofascist to elect another rather than fighting the power. So much wasted effort, and TPTB are just redirecting you towards these dead ends. Think about it, if rising co2 were part of TPTB, no media outlets would be directing your attention to it. It's a distraction. It's the Paris Hilton of environmental causes.

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Sunday, June 10, 2012 4:42 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Yanno RAPPY, you wouldn't be so fuckingpathetic if you just had a moderate grasp of the concept that FACTS MATTER. Not "your" facts, but REAL facts.

The FACT is that REAL plants (not the ones in your head) actually do about the same at higher CO2 levels, due to limits imposed on them by soil fungi (mycorrhiza).

Quote:

Our data indicate that there may be a feedback mechanism in which elevated carbon dioxide causes an increase in substrate release into the rhizosphere by non-mycorrhizal plants, leading to mineral nutrient sequestration by the expanded microflora and a consequent nutritional limitation on plant growth.


So, yeah, facts.... you should try looking into them once in a while.

Quote:

Yes, which would put us back to the cretaceous. I don't see a serious problem with that.
Aside from those is denial- like rappy- there are those who think that the eventual equilibrium will be beneficial for people... as if the 10,000-year transition... the one where 60-80% of the species die off and the oceans become acidic and anoxic and the human species is reduced to a few thousand living specimens... wouldn't be a major hurdle!

While we're at it... let's move off the earth altogether!!!

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Sunday, June 10, 2012 5:33 AM

BYTEMITE


DT: Please show me where I argued anything about a CO2 apocalypse. I agreed that storms have been unusually damaging and the weather unusually unstable of late. That is all. I did not commit one way or the other with the thread premise, and I don't intend to, as I am skeptical.

There are plenty of people who will argue with you about this on this board and even take the point of view you want to oppose without you having to paint me as something I'm not.

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Sunday, June 10, 2012 9:11 AM

DREAMTROVE


Sensitive much? I wasn't painting anything. You know who I'm talking about with the sky is falling stuff, I thought we were just discussing a topic.

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Sunday, June 10, 2012 3:45 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


What SCIENTISTS think... Not that some here put much stock in either science or facts...

Scientists uncover evidence of impending tipping point for Earth
By Robert Sanders, Media Relations | June 6, 2012

Quote:

BERKELEY —
A prestigious group of scientists from around the world is warning that population growth, widespread destruction of natural ecosystems, and climate change may be driving Earth toward an irreversible change in the biosphere, a planet-wide tipping point that would have destructive consequences absent adequate preparation and mitigation.


UC Berkeley professor Tony Barnosky explains how an increasing human population, coupled with climate change, could irreversibly alter Earth’s ecosystem. (Video produced by Roxanne Makasdjian)

“It really will be a new world, biologically, at that point,” warns Anthony Barnosky, professor of integrative biology at the University of California, Berkeley, and lead author of a review paper appearing in the June 7 issue of the journal Nature. “The data suggests that there will be a reduction in biodiversity and severe impacts on much of what we depend on to sustain our quality of life, including, for example, fisheries, agriculture, forest products and clean water. This could happen within just a few generations.”




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Sunday, June 10, 2012 7:30 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Hundreds flee raging Western fires
http://news.yahoo.com/photos/new-mexico-fire-sets-largest-record-13385
69936-slideshow
/


Another benefit of global climate shift.

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Monday, June 11, 2012 7:02 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


I'm going to bump this thread because in all the hullabaloo about the upcoming elections, there are really only a few topics that should scare the crap out of us, and impending annihilation is one.

1) Denial isn't going to work. Yes, anthropogenic global climate shift- It's happening now. Deal with it.

2) Taking the 10,000-year view isn't going to work. (May as well take the 25-billion-year view then.)

3) Moving off-planet or other daydreams about totally unrealistic solutions aren't going to work.

4) Individual actions of conservation, while beneficial, aren't sufficient. (Hitler would never have been stopped by dumpster-diving.)

Unfortunately, I don't think ANYTHING is going to work. The only people I know on this board who treat this with emotion it deserves are Chris and Kiki, and Chris is prolly thinking of his young son. And with good reason.

If anyone has any suggestions at all about what the average person can do which is effective, please let me know. 'Cause I'm looking around and thinking.... We're doomed. And please, no suggestions from categories 1-4. Been there, done that, got the T-shirt and mug, thanks.

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Monday, June 11, 2012 7:19 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by chrisisall:
Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:

Chrissy, you're sounding like that Pippy Bongstocking broad, from that 'day after' vid in Wisconsin.


Ha ha, that's funny- Now why say poles aren't melting when ALL the evidence (hell, PHOTOGRAPHIC PROOF) show the Arctic receding? Is this a WORLDWIDE conspiracy??? EVERY site, EVERY reporter, EVERY photo & satellite image????

Chrisisall, wearing a frilly Mal thing on his head, and ready to shoot unarmed, full-body armoured Operatives



Here's a (partial) list of the
specific glaciers that are growing


India - Record snowfall revives 2,000 glaciers
17 Feb 11 - Already more snowfall this month than
1998 record for the entire month. Think you'll see
this in the mainstream media?

http://www.iceagenow.com/List_of_Expanding_Glaciers.htm


Revealed: Antarctic ice growing, not shrinking

ICE is expanding in much of Antarctica, contrary to the widespread public belief that global warming is melting the continental ice cap.

The results of ice-core drilling and sea ice monitoring indicate there is no large-scale melting of ice over most of Antarctica, although experts are concerned at ice losses on the continent's western coast.

Antarctica has 90 per cent of the Earth's ice and 80 per cent of its fresh water. Extensive melting of Antarctic ice sheets would be required to raise sea levels substantially, and ice is melting in parts of west Antarctica. The destabilisation of the Wilkins ice shelf generated international headlines this month.

However, the picture is very different in east Antarctica, which includes the territory claimed by Australia.

East Antarctica is four times the size of west Antarctica and parts of it are cooling. The Scientific Committee on Antarctic Research report prepared for last week's meeting of Antarctic Treaty nations in Washington noted the South Pole had shown "significant cooling in recent decades".



http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/revealed-antarctic-ice-growing/st
ory-e6frg6no-1225700046908







" We're all just folk. " - Mal

" AU, that was great, LOL!! " - Chrisisall

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Monday, June 11, 2012 7:38 AM

1KIKI

Today, scientists sound the alarm on other environmental dangers. Vested interests still hire their own scientists to confuse the issue. But in the end, nature will not be fooled. Neil deGrasse Tyson


So, after getting your first answer wrong and LYING ABOUT IT you ran away AGAIN from my questions.

Why would you do that?

To refresh your memory, here it is:
http://fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?bid=18&tid=52174

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Monday, June 11, 2012 7:44 AM

BYTEMITE


Glaciers are kind of spotty either way. Whether they grow or shrink depends on the amount of snow fall they're getting at the formation zone. The common thought process is more warming, less snowfall, versus cooling, more snowfall, but it doesn't always work like that depending on the area and the predominant wind pattern.

You can have glaciers in the same fjord where one is growing and another is receding due to the different snowfall issue. Some of the more serious examples of receding glaciers started even before the industrial revolution.

My understanding is that there are more receding glaciers nowadays than growing glaciers, but I'm not prepared to confirm that nor make any conclusions about correlation versus causation.

Last I heard about Antarctica is that the shelves were thinning and that they'd detected rivers running again deep underneath the ice, so I don't know about this new information, I'd have to vet it. However, the beginning of a new ice age is not necessarily IMpossible, as ice ages are controlled by what's called the milankovitch cycle that has to do with the orbit of the earth.

There's about a 100 thousand years of cold followed by about 10 to 20 thousand years of warmth before it all drops again. This current warming period could more accurately be said to have started ten thousand years ago, and based on patterns, it COULD be argued that we're actually about to hit a transition period and then drop.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b8/Vostok_Petit_data.s
vg


^linky link

Alternatively, there's been an almost kind of weird holding pattern over the last ten thousand years or so where temperatures have been in approximately the same high relative temperature. Some have postulated that this unusually stable high has been the result of the rise of human agriculture and other heat generating activities.

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Monday, June 11, 2012 7:50 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by 1kiki:
So, after getting your first answer wrong and LYING ABOUT IT you ran away AGAIN from my questions.

Why would you do that?

To refresh your memory, here it is:
http://fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?bid=18&tid=52174



No idea who you're addressing, or why you're posting a link to an entirely different thread.


" We're all just folk. " - Mal

" AU, that was great, LOL!! " - Chrisisall

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Monday, June 11, 2012 8:11 AM

OONJERAH


Quote Signym: "Individual actions of conservation, while beneficial, aren't sufficient ...
"If anyone has any suggestions at all about what the average person can do which is
effective,
please let me know."

Change.Org petitions:

Support Clean Air Protections
http://www.change.org/petitions/support-clean-air-protections
"Scientists warn that the buildup of carbon pollution will create warmer temperatures
which could lead to higher smog levels. More smog means more childhood asthma attacks
and complications for others with lung disease . . ."

Don't Allow Unlimited Pollution! Tell Congress "NO" on More Dirty Air, "NO" on Denying Science
http://www.change.org/petitions/dont-allow-unlimited-pollution-tell-co
ngress-no-on-more-dirty-air-no-on-denying-science

"Defeat Repeal of Clean Air Act, Climate Science
Greetings, Elected Representatives:
I strongly oppose legislation to stop EPA's enforcement of the Clean Air Act and disable
EPA's protection of public health standards.
Persistent and unregulated pollution presents serious threats to our health, our economy,
and our nation's future . . ."
==================================

I can talk to friends and relatives about 1. Being aware of the dangers.
With most the folks I know, even this is an uphill battle.

I can sign online petitions.

I can write to my elected representatives.

I can join activist organizations.
.
.
what the average person can do which is effective,

Find some average people who are effective, and ask them how they do it?
Because personally, I don't know that I ever effected anything for the greater good.

Would you suggest brain storming?

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Monday, June 11, 2012 8:13 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


yes, I think brainstorming might be a good idea.

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Monday, June 11, 2012 8:19 AM

1KIKI

Today, scientists sound the alarm on other environmental dangers. Vested interests still hire their own scientists to confuse the issue. But in the end, nature will not be fooled. Neil deGrasse Tyson


That thread - still there.

You getting it wrong - still there.

You LYING ABOUT IT - still there.
Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:
Quote:

Originally posted by 1kiki:
So, after getting your first answer wrong and LYING ABOUT IT you ran away AGAIN from my questions.

Why would you do that?

To refresh your memory, here it is:
http://fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?bid=18&tid=52174



No idea who you're addressing, or why you're posting a link to an entirely different thread.



Clear enough for you?

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Monday, June 11, 2012 9:26 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by 1kiki:

Clear enough for you?



Nope, not really. That thread should remain in that thread.
Not sure what you're saying I'm wrong about, as there are 94 replies in that thread, and I sure as HELL am not 'lying' about that or anything.

Thus, the confusion.


" We're all just folk. " - Mal

" AU, that was great, LOL!! " - Chrisisall

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Monday, June 11, 2012 9:45 AM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:
Quote:

Originally posted by chrisisall:
Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:

Chrissy, you're sounding like that Pippy Bongstocking broad, from that 'day after' vid in Wisconsin.


Ha ha, that's funny- Now why say poles aren't melting when ALL the evidence (hell, PHOTOGRAPHIC PROOF) show the Arctic receding? Is this a WORLDWIDE conspiracy??? EVERY site, EVERY reporter, EVERY photo & satellite image????

Chrisisall, wearing a frilly Mal thing on his head, and ready to shoot unarmed, full-body armoured Operatives



Here's a (partial) list of the
specific glaciers that are growing


India - Record snowfall revives 2,000 glaciers
17 Feb 11 - Already more snowfall this month than
1998 record for the entire month. Think you'll see
this in the mainstream media?

http://www.iceagenow.com/List_of_Expanding_Glaciers.htm


Revealed: Antarctic ice growing, not shrinking

ICE is expanding in much of Antarctica, contrary to the widespread public belief that global warming is melting the continental ice cap.

The results of ice-core drilling and sea ice monitoring indicate there is no large-scale melting of ice over most of Antarctica, although experts are concerned at ice losses on the continent's western coast.

Antarctica has 90 per cent of the Earth's ice and 80 per cent of its fresh water. Extensive melting of Antarctic ice sheets would be required to raise sea levels substantially, and ice is melting in parts of west Antarctica. The destabilisation of the Wilkins ice shelf generated international headlines this month.

However, the picture is very different in east Antarctica, which includes the territory claimed by Australia.

East Antarctica is four times the size of west Antarctica and parts of it are cooling. The Scientific Committee on Antarctic Research report prepared for last week's meeting of Antarctic Treaty nations in Washington noted the South Pole had shown "significant cooling in recent decades".



http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/revealed-antarctic-ice-growing/st
ory-e6frg6no-1225700046908



What's wrong with this post?
Oh, yeah, I was talkin' specifically about the ARCTIC (see above), and you posted all kinds of stuff about the ANTARCTIC (see above).

When you cannot answer a question, you answer a different one you LIKE instead.
This is why peeps find you so hard to converse with; you respond only to what you feel you can 'win', not anything that might force you to reconsider some of your diamond hard dogma.





Chrisisall, wearing a frilly Mal thing on his head, and ready to shoot unarmed, full-body armoured Operatives

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Monday, June 11, 2012 10:45 AM

1KIKI

Today, scientists sound the alarm on other environmental dangers. Vested interests still hire their own scientists to confuse the issue. But in the end, nature will not be fooled. Neil deGrasse Tyson


Well then little Rappy, here's the link
http://fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=52174

And to make it perfectly clear to others, if not to you:

here is SignyM's post
Tax the ultra-wealthy...a lot.

here is your post:
Yeah, Carter TRIED that, how'd that work out for him ?

here is the chart showing Carter LOWERED (Ford's) taxes on the wealthy (cap gains):


and here is your post where you lied about what you posted:
I never said Carter raised taxes ...

So, let's take it back to the thread where it belongs.

How is it that you don't criticize Nixon and Ford, who taxed the wealthy greatly, but blame Carter for 'trying' high taxes on the wealthy when he lowered them?

And btw that lowering of taxes - how'd that work out for him?



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Wednesday, June 13, 2012 2:42 PM

RIONAEIRE

Beir bua agus beannacht


I don't know much about carbondioxide, not qualified to have an opinion on the matter, but I do know there is less ice up north and that is part of climate change, I watch a lot of Alaska shows and I watch what the Innuit are saying about it, they seem like a good source to me about changes, at least on a short term lifespan basis. What I don't know is how much of that climate change is manmade, I suspect that if it is partly manmade its because of deforestation more than anything else. Plus we should want to pollute less anyways because its good not to "soil your living space" as Frem puts it. We should want to improve our behavior whether it causes climate change or not, maybe it does and maybe it doesn't, maybe part of it does (my current thinking).

Climate change affects me because spring goes later in the year now adays, my camping place doesn't open until memorial day instead of May 1st, I've had to alter my personal calendar to have summer start on June 15th instead of June 1st, colder and rainier, can't swim as soon as I used to, :(

I assume you're my pal until you let me know otherwise.

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya.

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Wednesday, June 13, 2012 2:58 PM

KPO

"Love is natural and real. But not for you my love. Not tonight my love..."


Quote:

Originally posted by 6IXSTRINGJACK:
Quote:

Originally posted by kpo:
Quote:

Originally posted by 6IXSTRINGJACK:
Seriously, if you want to reduce CO2 and Methane emissions, make good beef and steak affordable again so my weekly dinner diet doesn't consist 90% of processed 4 meat pizza and mac-and-cheese with chili and bean dip.

I don't have IBS.... but you wouldn't know it on my bad days....

My poor A-Hole....... :(

It's being raped from the inside by cheap Aldi food on a daily basis....

Those guys getting unwillingly pounded mercilessly from behind on OZ back in the day don't have shit on what a 100% Aldi diet will do to your sphincter from the inside.




This isn't a laughing matter Jack.

Hehe, sphincter.

It's not personal. It's just war.




Hehe... I know... just bringing out truth with humor man....

I've spent the larger part of my last 3 months growing new baby grass on 1,600 feet of my property that was bare or full of weeds (Which have left me using over 11,000 gallons of water since the 22nd that I haven't been billed on yet!!!!), and I'm growing my new raised garden that I give instructions to how to do, if it turns out well and you'd like to see how to do it.

The first year cost me over 200 bucks in up-front costs, and being a cheapass like I am, that's WAY OVERSPENDING..... I'll figure out much cheaper ways to expand this int he future.

Either way, if I only kept this 4'x4' garden next year, there will be no man made fertilizers or huge costs. Just a few bags of cheap compost and a few cheap plants and seeds to start it up again.




We're probably allies here by proxy....

I don't have kids... I think the planet and those who are in control will ultimately implode on themselves, but I think it will be a lot later than I'm old enough to care....

In the mean time, I recycle cans and cardboard, and I'm starting my first garden.

My newest game system is a broken XBox 360 that doesn't play discs and only plays downloaded games. Aside from Goodwill, my only new clothes purchase in the retail stores in the last 3 years were new socks and drawers and a pair of black work pants.

My oldest T Shirt is a black shirt with 6 pics of Curly with "The Many Faces of a Knucklehead" on it that my Pom GF in HS bought me. It's about 14 years old now and has still held up.... (Made in America). I still get a lot of compliments on it.

Recycling is one thing man... can you wear clothes that are nearly 15 years old with pride :)

It should be easy.... aside from the flannel fad, most 90's clothes were so low key they could be worn today without anyone noticing, unlike 80s or 70s fads....



Back to the tomatoes though...

I love my fresh tomatoes more than, well to keep it PC, just about everything else...





Wish me luck!



Haha you'd get on well with my brother, he loves his gardening.

Good luck my man.

It's not personal. It's just war.

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Thursday, June 14, 2012 3:17 PM

6IXSTRINGJACK


I'm sure he'd have some tips for me....

We're just doing our part ;)

I knew what I was doing at my job, and I got Six-Sigma'd....

There are over 10 million idiots working Government jobs who I could run circles around.



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