REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

Scotts Pleads Guilty to Intentionally Selling Poisoned Bird Seed

POSTED BY: KWICKO
UPDATED: Monday, June 4, 2012 08:53
SHORT URL:
VIEWED: 1039
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Friday, June 1, 2012 1:52 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


What. The. Actual. Fuck.

Quote:

Scotts Miracle-Gro products are known for zapping weeds dead. But it turns out they could be killing decidedly more attractive creatures — birds.

Scotts pled guilty this Tuesday to charges that the company illegally put insecticides in its “Morning Song” and “Country Pride” brands of bird seed. That’s right: The company knowingly coated products intended for birds to eat with substances toxic to birds and wildlife.

According to court records, in 2008, Scotts distributed 73 million packages of bird seed coated with the insecticides Storcide II, containing the active ingredient chlorpyrifos, and and Actellic 5E, containing the active ingredient pirimiphos-methyl, intended to keep insects from destroying the seed.

The company continued to produce and market the insecticide-coated seeds despite being alerted to toxicity dangers by a Scotts staff chemist and ornithologist.


And here’s the icing on the toxin-loaded cake: Storcide II, one of the insecticides in Scotts seed, comes with a huge warning label that reads: “Toxic to birds, toxic to wildlife” and “Exposed treated seed may be hazardous to birds.” Must be that a senior exec at Scotts got shat on by a pigeon one day and took it real personal.

In addition to the bird seed, Scotts is in big trouble for selling chemical-loaded gardening products without first obtaining registration from the EPA. The federal government alleges that a Scotts manager even went so far as to fabricate documents and correspondence with the agency. It seems they find forgery easier than just not poisoning wildlife.

The judge hasn’t decided what, exactly, Scotts’ punishment will be yet, but the company has proposed paying a $4 million fine and donating $500,000 towards wildlife conservation. Maybe all the house finches, sparrows, and mourning doves Scotts has poisoned over the years will file a class-action lawsuit and push for a lot more than that.



http://grist.org/list/scotts-miracle-gro-pleads-guilty-to-selling-pois
oned-bird-seed/?fb_ref=fbrw



Pure evil in the name of capitalistic greed? Where's that get fun?



"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence [sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero


"I've not watched the video either, or am incapable of intellectually dealing with the substance of this thread, so I'll instead act like a juvenile and claim victory..." - Rappy


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Friday, June 1, 2012 1:57 PM

WHOZIT


With all the Canadian Geese around here....I'll buy a tractor trailer load.

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Friday, June 1, 2012 4:25 PM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Hello,

I used to be an absolutist in my opinion that government needed to stay away from business. I used to feel that business should regulate itself, and the consumer could decide what they wanted to buy without interference.

I am no longer of that opinion.

Now I believe that the government does have roles in assuring

1) Claims made or implied about a product are factual.
2) Full disclosure of relevant product facts are made and in an understandable fashion.
3) The product does not pose undisclosed dangers to people, animals, or the environment.

I've come to this conclusion after noting that corporations will apparently do evil shit for no reason that I can ascertain and continue doing it in the shadows until someone forces that information into the light.

--Anthony



Note to Self:
Raptor - women who want to control their reproductive processes are sluts.
Wulf - Niki is a stupid fucking bitch who should hurry up and die.
Never forget what these men are.
“The stupid neither forgive nor forget; the naive forgive and forget; the wise forgive but do not forget.” -Thomas Szasz

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Friday, June 1, 2012 4:28 PM

FREMDFIRMA



Out of his mind they said, conspiracy theorist they said, it's all just salmonella they said....
http://www.michigan.gov/dnr/0,4570,7-153-10370_12150_12220-27268--,00.
html

http://www.cbsnews.com/2100-870_162-7741.html

Monday mornin imma take whatever I can find on this and cram it so far up the ass of my local DNR rep his dentist will have to fucking polish it.

ETA: This is even more apalling to those who know about the Bird Ultimatum that day.

-Frem

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Friday, June 1, 2012 5:04 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by ANTHONYT:
Hello,

I used to be an absolutist in my opinion that government needed to stay away from business. I used to feel that business should regulate itself, and the consumer could decide what they wanted to buy without interference.

I am no longer of that opinion.

Now I believe that the government does have roles in assuring

1) Claims made or implied about a product are factual.
2) Full disclosure of relevant product facts are made and in an understandable fashion.
3) The product does not pose undisclosed dangers to people, animals, or the environment.

I've come to this conclusion after noting that corporations will apparently do evil shit for no reason that I can ascertain and continue doing it in the shadows until someone forces that information into the light.




That's the part of this that really stings, Anthony. They were using a product ON BIRD SEED that was clearly marked as being DANGEROUS TO BIRDS.

Why the fuck would anyone knowingly do that? Cruelty? Profit? Greed? Just pure small-minded dickish fucking evil?



"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence [sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero


"I've not watched the video either, or am incapable of intellectually dealing with the substance of this thread, so I'll instead act like a juvenile and claim victory..." - Rappy

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Friday, June 1, 2012 5:13 PM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Hello,

One might as well dope insulin with glucose, or anti-psychotic medication with combat enhancement drugs.

It's not just the vile evil of it. But... did they really think nobody would notice? Ever?

--Anthony


Note to Self:
Raptor - women who want to control their reproductive processes are sluts.
Wulf - Niki is a stupid fucking bitch who should hurry up and die.
Never forget what these men are.
“The stupid neither forgive nor forget; the naive forgive and forget; the wise forgive but do not forget.” -Thomas Szasz

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Saturday, June 2, 2012 2:28 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:

Pure evil in the name of capitalistic greed? Where's that get fun?



How is this capitalistic 'greed' ?

Oh, it isn't. You're just a dick head. Got it.

Evil ? Maybe. Stupid? Seems like. But neither have anything to do w/ capitalism , or even greed, for that matter. It's not as if Scott's decided, in order to save $ and make more profit, to use inexpensive chemicals or products which were poisonous to birds, while claiming the ingredients were clean, pure and top of the line. Seems to me,Scott's actually adding MORE than what is being advertised, at a cost to the company. And now that this story is out, it'll cost them a hell of a lot more in bad PR. Which may be the least of his worries.




" We're all just folk. " - Mal

" AU, that was great, LOL!! " - Chrisisall

"The world is a dangerous place. Not because of the people who are evil; but because of the people who don't do anything about it." - Albert Einstein


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Saturday, June 2, 2012 3:24 AM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up


Quote:

Originally posted by FREMDFIRMA:

Out of his mind they said, conspiracy theorist they said, it's all just salmonella they said....
http://www.michigan.gov/dnr/0,4570,7-153-10370_12150_12220-27268--,00.
html

http://www.cbsnews.com/2100-870_162-7741.html

Monday mornin imma take whatever I can find on this and cram it so far up the ass of my local DNR rep his dentist will have to fucking polish it.

ETA: This is even more apalling to those who know about the Bird Ultimatum that day.

-Frem



Note that the Scott's recall of these feeds for the insecticide problem was in April 2008 (and I'd assume manufacture ceased before that), and the salmonella stories you cite are in early 2009. Could be that the 2009 bird deaths were salmonella, although it appears Scott's feed containing peanuts may have had something to do with that.

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Saturday, June 2, 2012 4:37 AM

FREMDFIRMA



I want them to acknowledge the POSSIBILITY, Geeze - I seriously doubt by now it could be proven either way, I just want them to friggin acknowledge that they might have been wrong...

See, long ago and far away, back when I worked security at a chem plant I had a LOT of experience with poisoned birds, given making them disappear so folks didn't get suspicious was part of my job - lets just say birds flying over that plant had a tendancy to not make it across.
And so I had brought this up when I started finding dead birds in the neighborhood back when I was with my ex, mostly cause I thought it was some local yahoo sick in the head doin it for kicks, you know ?
Only to have the DNR rep all but tear a strip off me about it.

And since the exact brand and type has been revealed, I have a pretty damn solid idea who was responsible, albeit not deliberately and they'd be totally horrified if they knew, but anyhows....
People WONDER why I have little cassandra-temper-fits.
*hissss*


Oh, and Anthony ?

ALL Evil is ultimately petty.
Cause that's what Evil is - even the supposedly "big" Evils are, cause you look at atrocities carried out by regimes, and you can often boil it right on down... this jerk wanted revenge on his father, that jerk hated people smarter than him, this one hated people richer than him, and that one... he hated social classes and figured offing one wholesale would crash the system, these people are in the way of profit, make them dead, and so on, and so forth, but always, all every and forever...
It's ALL petty - which is why I get so annoyed at folks who enable and glorify it by trying to paint it as epic.

-Frem

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Saturday, June 2, 2012 6:03 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


I wouldn't be caught dead buying Miracle Gro; what it actually does is force plants to bloom more, which makes the actual plants weaker and less able to survive beyond one season, many of us have known that for ages.

As to the bird seed, that's horrendous. We're losing our birds fast enough as it is...loose cats have decimated the bird populations in numerous areas; this, is beyond comprehension. Maybe they did it to minimize the possibility of insects in the bird seed, but it's stupid and it sickens me.

We've had a drastic reduction in our beloved Steller Jays here in Marin, which used to be abundant. Looking it up, the two major contributing factors are likely Sudden Oak Death (which is pretty bad around here), since Jays eat mostly acorns and depend on them in winter, and West Nile Virus, to which jays are especially susceptible. Saddens me greatly not to see them around much,if at all, any more.

But given our wild bird population is declining in many places, the idea of Scott putting out bird seed which is dangerous to birds absolutely horrifies me!


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Saturday, June 2, 2012 8:14 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:
Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:

Pure evil in the name of capitalistic greed? Where's that get fun?



How is this capitalistic 'greed' ?




How is it NOT?

Quote:

According to court records, in 2008, Scotts distributed 73 million packages of bird seed coated with the insecticides Storcide II, containing the active ingredient chlorpyrifos, and and Actellic 5E, containing the active ingredient pirimiphos-methyl, intended to keep insects from destroying the seed.

The company continued to produce and market the insecticide-coated seeds despite being alerted to toxicity dangers by a Scotts staff chemist and ornithologist.


And here’s the icing on the toxin-loaded cake: Storcide II, one of the insecticides in Scotts seed, comes with a huge warning label that reads: “Toxic to birds, toxic to wildlife” and “Exposed treated seed may be hazardous to birds.”



Seventy-three MILLION packets. And they continued making and marketing the stuff AFTER they were alerted to the dangers.

But you insist that has nothing to do with "greed". Classic.

Quote:

Seems to me,Scott's actually adding MORE than what is being advertised, at a cost to the company.



Yup. That's Rappy, ever the fucktard corporate suck-up, always making the corporations into martyrs. Rappy seems to feel that the company should have actually charged extra for this added bonus, since not only do you get to feed the birds with their seed, you also get to watch them die as an added benefit!

This wasn't a case of Scotts using chemicals toxic to birds inadvertently in some of their grass seed in order to keep birds from eating the grass before it can grow; this is a case of Scotts intentionally and knowingly putting known bird poisons INTO BIRD FOOD INTENDED TO BE EATEN BY BIRDS, and selling it AS BIRD SEED, NOT AS BIRD POISON.

Yet Rappy insists there's not a greedy thing about that...




"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence [sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero


"I've not watched the video either, or am incapable of intellectually dealing with the substance of this thread, so I'll instead act like a juvenile and claim victory..." - Rappy

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Saturday, June 2, 2012 8:20 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Also not a sign of greed - in separate but related charges:

Quote:

The federal government also alleged that a Scotts manager fabricated federal documents and correspondence to obtain state registrations for two products that were being marketed without U.S. EPA registration.

The government alleged that the manager "told EPA that these files proved that the products had been properly reviewed and registered by EPA when, in fact, they were not authentic EPA files and when, in fact, the products had not been approved and registered by EPA."

The government also charged that between 2005 and 2007 Scotts sold two pesticides without directions required by the EPA and making claims on labels about the product that the EPA had rejected.

On April 23, 2008, EPA Region 5 today issued a "stop sale, use or removal" order against Scotts Miracle Gro Co., Scotts Lawn Care Service and three affiliates, all of Marysville, Ohio, for illegal, unregistered and misbranded pesticides.

Identified by invalid registration number 62355-4, the two products were marketed as Garden Weed Preventer + Plant Food and Miracle Gro Shake 'n' Feed All Purpose Plant Food Plus Weed Preventer.



http://www.ens-newswire.com/ens/mar2012/2012-03-14-091.html

Forged documents intended to mislead people into thinking the ingredients were EPA approved, when they had in fact been rejected by that agency, all so that they could put stuff out for sale that was not safe or approved. Nope, nothing greedy about that at all!



"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence [sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero


"I've not watched the video either, or am incapable of intellectually dealing with the substance of this thread, so I'll instead act like a juvenile and claim victory..." - Rappy

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Saturday, June 2, 2012 8:41 AM

1KIKI

Today, scientists sound the alarm on other environmental dangers. Vested interests still hire their own scientists to confuse the issue. But in the end, nature will not be fooled. Neil deGrasse Tyson


"... corporations will apparently do evil shit for no reason that I can ascertain ..."

I'm guessing it's some combination of cheaper, faster and more convenient. For example, Scotts may have been set up to produce insecticided seed for lawns, and setting up for bird seed would have been too inconvenient. They may have calculated the cost of the treatment v the profit of the bird seed and decided it would cost more to reformulate than to keep going on the way they were. Or perhaps it was too bothersome to think about. Or they may have made too much insecticided lawn seed and, unable to sell it, they mixed it with other seed and repackaged it as bird seed.

It's obvious why they would sell products before being registered with the EPA - cost, time, and maybe even being unable to legally comply at all.

In any case, capitalism is like evolution - the ones who grab the most resources the fastest win. That it may not be long-term survivable doesn't compute in the short-term grab-fest.

If evolution is unthinking animal behavior which responds to the immediate advantage, and human intelligence is the pursuit of the long-term over the short-term, then corporations do what they do because they're inhuman and stupid.

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Saturday, June 2, 2012 8:42 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Quote:

Yet Rappy insists there's not a greedy thing about that...


Hello,

Deficient thinking will lead some willfully blind people to overlook the fact that the insecticide was placed there to prevent shrinkage caused by insects. Hence protecting inventory for sale and thereby securing greater profits.

Damn the results.

Greed indeed, to anyone with the intellect and will to see it.

--Anthony


Note to Self:
Raptor - women who want to control their reproductive processes are sluts.
Wulf - Niki is a stupid fucking bitch who should hurry up and die.
Never forget what these men are.
“The stupid neither forgive nor forget; the naive forgive and forget; the wise forgive but do not forget.” -Thomas Szasz

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Saturday, June 2, 2012 8:46 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Quote:

That it may not be long-term survivable doesn't compute in the short-term grab-fest.


Hello,

I fault our government which has so consistently leveled an inconsequential price on such violations. If the orchestrators of such malfeasance suffered in proportion to their crime, there would indeed be an economic 'evolutionary' force against such behavior.

It is only profitable because we allow it to be profitable. Otherwise people would properly weigh the long-lasting pain against the short-term pleasure. But so many escape the wrath they deserve that it must indeed be a survival trait to do this kind of crime that will certainly be revealed after a short time. If there is no serious fear of retribution, why not?

--Anthony


Note to Self:
Raptor - women who want to control their reproductive processes are sluts.
Wulf - Niki is a stupid fucking bitch who should hurry up and die.
Never forget what these men are.
“The stupid neither forgive nor forget; the naive forgive and forget; the wise forgive but do not forget.” -Thomas Szasz

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Saturday, June 2, 2012 8:47 AM

1KIKI

Today, scientists sound the alarm on other environmental dangers. Vested interests still hire their own scientists to confuse the issue. But in the end, nature will not be fooled. Neil deGrasse Tyson


Sadly, I agree.

In my current job, which is environmental, inconsequential penalties are called 'the cost of doing business'.

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Saturday, June 2, 2012 8:58 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by 1kiki:
"... corporations will apparently do evil shit for no reason that I can ascertain ..."

I'm guessing it's some combination of cheaper, faster and more convenient. For example, Scotts may have been set up to produce insecticided seed for lawns, and setting up for bird seed would have been too inconvenient. They may have calculated the cost of the treatment v the profit of the bird seed and decided it would cost more to reformulate than to keep going on the way they were. Or perhaps it was too bothersome to think about. Or they may have made too much insecticided lawn seed and, unable to sell it, they mixed it with other seed and repackaged it as bird seed.

It's obvious why they would sell products before being registered with the EPA - cost, time, and maybe even being unable to legally comply at all.

In any case, capitalism is like evolution - the ones who grab the most resources the fastest win. That it may not be long-term survivable doesn't compute in the short-term grab-fest.

If evolution is unthinking animal behavior which responds to the immediate advantage, and human intelligence is the pursuit of the long-term over the short-term, then corporations do what they do because they're inhuman and stupid.




Yup. As I stated, just plain capitalistic greed.

Rappy seems to think that greed COULDN'T play any part in this, because the fines might outweigh any profits they derived from this behavior.

So if I rob a bank, am I only a criminal if I'm caught?

They weighed the options - will we get caught? If so, how much will we have to pay in fines? - and they figured they'd come out ahead, no problem, so they went on doing what they were doing, which was wrong, all in the name of bigger profits.

The only way to STOP this shit is to make sure the fines and damages are punitive enough to far outstrip any possible "win" that might be achieved.

Ford did the math on the Pinto's exploding gas tank, and calculated that it would cost more to re-engineer the tank so it didn't explode on impact than it would to pay off any likely victims of said explosions. When this was proven in court, they were forced to pay FAR MORE than any regulatory fines or penalties would have been otherwise. That was done purely to send a message: when you put your profits ahead of people's safety, and you get caught doing it, you will have no profits.

The right-wing response to this has been to call for deregulation and to maximize the possible fines and penalties for willfully putting people in danger.

... but we're assured it has nothing to do with greed.



"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence [sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero


"I've not watched the video either, or am incapable of intellectually dealing with the substance of this thread, so I'll instead act like a juvenile and claim victory..." - Rappy

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Saturday, June 2, 2012 9:51 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by ANTHONYT:
Quote:

Yet Rappy insists there's not a greedy thing about that...


Hello,

Deficient thinking will lead some willfully blind people to overlook the fact that the insecticide was placed there to prevent shrinkage caused by insects. Hence protecting inventory for sale and thereby securing greater profits.

Damn the results.

Greed indeed, to anyone with the intellect and will to see it.

--Anthony



Fair enough, as you describe it that way. I hadn't thought that killing off the critters you're selling your product to feed in the first place would make good business sense. The author of the article snarked that maybe the CEO was getting back at birds, for one having taken a dump on him, but I missed the supposed reason given for why adding poison was suppose to be a good idea.

Even after ornithologists and others raised the alarm.

Putting out a faulty product ( poisoned seed as it was ) doesn't seem to me to be a very bright business decision. A safer, cleaner and more secure method of packaging the product seems to me like it'd make more sense. But what do I know about the bird seed business ?




" We're all just folk. " - Mal

" AU, that was great, LOL!! " - Chrisisall

"The world is a dangerous place. Not because of the people who are evil; but because of the people who don't do anything about it." - Albert Einstein


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Saturday, June 2, 2012 11:18 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


So after insisting that it couldn't have anything to do with greed - and that I was a "dick head" for saying it did - Rappy now admits he doesn't have a fucking clue WHAT it was about.

In other words, it very definitely could have to do with greed.

So are you going to apologize now?

Quote:

A safer, cleaner and more secure method of packaging the product seems to me like it'd make more sense.


And likely a more expensive proposition as well. So again, you seem to be admitting that greed is part of this equation, as I originally proposed. So why the little temper tantrum, child?



"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence [sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero


"I've not watched the video either, or am incapable of intellectually dealing with the substance of this thread, so I'll instead act like a juvenile and claim victory..." - Rappy

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Saturday, June 2, 2012 11:22 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!



Kwickie

I apologize that you're a dick head.

I wish it were not so.




" We're all just folk. " - Mal

" AU, that was great, LOL!! " - Chrisisall

"The world is a dangerous place. Not because of the people who are evil; but because of the people who don't do anything about it." - Albert Einstein


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Saturday, June 2, 2012 2:22 PM

MAGONSDAUGHTER


Quote:

Originally posted by ANTHONYT:
Hello,

I used to be an absolutist in my opinion that government needed to stay away from business. I used to feel that business should regulate itself, and the consumer could decide what they wanted to buy without interference.

I am no longer of that opinion.

Now I believe that the government does have roles in assuring

1) Claims made or implied about a product are factual.
2) Full disclosure of relevant product facts are made and in an understandable fashion.
3) The product does not pose undisclosed dangers to people, animals, or the environment.

I've come to this conclusion after noting that corporations will apparently do evil shit for no reason that I can ascertain and continue doing it in the shadows until someone forces that information into the light.

--Anthony





I'm of the mind that we need something else, independent bodies that regulate both government and business, and by regulate I mean be a watchdog. Something along the line of ombudsmen, but with expanded authority.

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Sunday, June 3, 2012 5:34 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Quote:

to prevent shrinkage caused by insects
Ah, thank you, I figured it had something to do with insects in the seed, but wasn't sure what. Yup, less need to toss out insect-attacked seed would certainly enhance the bottom line, wouldn't it?
Quote:

I fault our government which has so consistently leveled an inconsequential price on such violations. If the orchestrators of such malfeasance suffered in proportion to their crime, there would indeed be an economic 'evolutionary' force against such behavior.

It is only profitable because we allow it to be profitable. Otherwise people would properly weigh the long-lasting pain against the short-term pleasure. But so many escape the wrath they deserve that it must indeed be a survival trait to do this kind of crime that will certainly be revealed after a short time. If there is no serious fear of retribution, why not?

Which holds true for so MANY things in our society, from oil spills to bird seed. You are absolutely spot on, my friend.

And yeah, it is "cost of business", given that in virtually every case, any fees and/or lawsuits are so FAR outweighed by profit, it's just taken into account--and usually passed on to the customer, anyway...

Not only would safer packaging cost more, but most seed would be accompanied by insect eggs or their equivalent, so you'd get insects no matter how good your packaging. Too bad there wasn't a viable alternative...I wonder what it would be? Washing the seed first, maybe? I don't know enough to even guess, but I don't have to guess that putting insecticide in was the cheapest and easiest solution. After all, the birds wouldn't die at the bird feeder, so nobody'd notice...and go right on buying the seed.

Magons, I wish we had. Only problem is, ANY form of watchdog set up would become corrupted in time, and away you go...


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Sunday, June 3, 2012 7:00 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by Magonsdaughter:

I'm of the mind that we need something else, independent bodies that regulate both government and business, and by regulate I mean be a watchdog. Something along the line of ombudsmen, but with expanded authority.




Because there's not enough authority in govt already, we need yet ANOTHER, bigger brother to tell us all how to live our lives ?

I like the idea from Firefly, where the Companions have their own Guild, which keeps everyone and everything in line.

Or maybe I just like the idea of there BEING Companions, in the first place ?



`

" We're all just folk. " - Mal

" AU, that was great, LOL!! " - Chrisisall

"The world is a dangerous place. Not because of the people who are evil; but because of the people who don't do anything about it." - Albert Einstein


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Sunday, June 3, 2012 9:03 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by Niki2:
...I don't have to guess that putting insecticide in was the cheapest and easiest solution. After all, the birds wouldn't die at the bird feeder, so nobody'd notice...and go right on buying the seed.




Or even worse - when people noticed fewer birds around, they might be tempted to put out MORE bird seed in hopes of luring the birds back to their yard.



"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence [sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero


"I've not watched the video either, or am incapable of intellectually dealing with the substance of this thread, so I'll instead act like a juvenile and claim victory..." - Rappy

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Sunday, June 3, 2012 12:38 PM

MAGONSDAUGHTER


Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:
Quote:

Originally posted by Magonsdaughter:

I'm of the mind that we need something else, independent bodies that regulate both government and business, and by regulate I mean be a watchdog. Something along the line of ombudsmen, but with expanded authority.




Because there's not enough authority in govt already, we need yet ANOTHER, bigger brother to tell us all how to live our lives ?

I like the idea from Firefly, where the Companions have their own Guild, which keeps everyone and everything in line.

Or maybe I just like the idea of there BEING Companions, in the first place ?







Do you just dismiss everything i say based on your completely partisan view of the world? What a shame you have such a limiting mind. A shame for you anyway.

I did say that such a body would have the role of ensuring government power was limited and governments were accountable. I'm basing my ideas on the ombudsman services which work pretty well. And of course, the real question would be about who makes up these organisations. I think there is latitude for developing such ideas, which may be flawed, may not be useful, but at least are ideas for possible solutions nonetheless.

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Sunday, June 3, 2012 1:00 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by Magonsdaughter:
Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:
Quote:

Originally posted by Magonsdaughter:

I'm of the mind that we need something else, independent bodies that regulate both government and business, and by regulate I mean be a watchdog. Something along the line of ombudsmen, but with expanded authority.




Because there's not enough authority in govt already, we need yet ANOTHER, bigger brother to tell us all how to live our lives ?

I like the idea from Firefly, where the Companions have their own Guild, which keeps everyone and everything in line.

Or maybe I just like the idea of there BEING Companions, in the first place ?







Do you just dismiss everything i say based on your completely partisan view of the world? What a shame you have such a limiting mind. A shame for you anyway.

I did say that such a body would have the role of ensuring government power was limited and governments were accountable. I'm basing my ideas on the ombudsman services which work pretty well. And of course, the real question would be about who makes up these organisations. I think there is latitude for developing such ideas, which may be flawed, may not be useful, but at least are ideas for possible solutions nonetheless.



That power, the ombudsman role you speak of , is SUPPOSE to lie with 'We, the People', the voters.

I find it predictable and sad that when ever some folks have a different point of view , it's always because their minds are 'too small', or not evolved enough, to understand the genius that's being shoveled at them.





" We're all just folk. " - Mal

" AU, that was great, LOL!! " - Chrisisall

"The world is a dangerous place. Not because of the people who are evil; but because of the people who don't do anything about it." - Albert Einstein


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Sunday, June 3, 2012 1:33 PM

MAGONSDAUGHTER


Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:

That power, the ombudsman role you speak of , is SUPPOSE to lie with 'We, the People', the voters.



Yeah, but we vote on who gets to take up positions of power within government, we don't oversea the system of governemnt. You can vote your bony arse off, but if the system is corrupt or inefficient as it is within many so called democracies in the world, it aint gonna make any difference.

Quote:

I find it predictable and sad that when ever some folks have a different point of view , it's always because their minds are 'too small', or not evolved enough, to understand the genius that's being shoveled at them.


It's not the different pov that I object to, but your knee jerk partisanship and black and white views.

Quote:


Magons, I wish we had. Only problem is, ANY form of watchdog set up would become corrupted in time, and away you go...



I guess I feel more optomistic than that, Niki. For all the flaws in our respective systems, I'd rather live here now than in any point in history. I feel that progression has and continues to be made in the limiting of government power (think back to the middle ages) but I think a lot more needs to be done and my beef is with the lack of limits around corporate power. So I hope we can continue to try and find solutions and not feel disheartened because of the two steps forward, one step back progression.






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Sunday, June 3, 2012 2:35 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by Magonsdaughter:

It's not the different pov that I object to, but your knee jerk partisanship and black and white views.




" Not black and white. Right and wrong. " - Jack Ryan, Clear and Present Danger.




" We're all just folk. " - Mal

" AU, that was great, LOL!! " - Chrisisall

"The world is a dangerous place. Not because of the people who are evil; but because of the people who don't do anything about it." - Albert Einstein


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Sunday, June 3, 2012 3:36 PM

MAGONSDAUGHTER


Where is the video link? C'mon, now, don't try and think, just post shit that other people have said.

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Monday, June 4, 2012 8:53 AM

RIONAEIRE

Beir bua agus beannacht


That's just plain mean of them to do that, cutting corners I see, did they think no one would catch them? Or did they think they were so big that no one would tell.

I assume you're my pal until you let me know otherwise.

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya.

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