REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

One of the reasons I sometimes hate my species

POSTED BY: NIKI2
UPDATED: Wednesday, June 6, 2012 15:36
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Saturday, May 26, 2012 4:45 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Quote:

Dexter, a spaniel long-haired chihuahua mix who was severely injured by explosives that were strapped to his body and detonated, was reunited with his owner, Shukriyyah Albaaqee, after she saw reports of the dog on the news.



Police in Stockton, Calif. responded to reports on Wednesday that an explosive device had detonated and discovered an injured dog at the scene. They then discovered that someone had strapped the device to the dog and set it off.

The dog was rushed to a local animal hospital, where he was given the nickname “Rocket.” According to ABC’s Sacramento affiliate, KXTV, the dog was injured but in stable condition. He had a large, deep wound, roughly 10 inches long.

“It’s quite a miracle that he’s still alive right now,” a veterinary worker told KXTV. “He’s a trouper. He’s a tough little guy.”

Employees at the animal hospital did not believe Dexter was a stray.

Reports of the incident on the news led Shukriyyah Albaaqee to the animal hospital where she provided pictures and home video as proof that Dexter indeed belonged to her.

Dexter will stay at the animal hospital until at least next Tuesday while he heals.

RedRover, a national nonprofit animal protection organization based on Sacramento, is offering a $2,500 reward for information leading to the arrest and conviction of whoever strapped the explosive to Dexter and detonated the device. http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/technology/2012/05/california-dog-burned-b
y-explosives-reunited-with-owner/

Sometimes, in some cases, we are an amazingly sick species...

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Saturday, May 26, 2012 5:02 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!



I could offer up similar examples of abuse, but would rather not.

There is a senseless and horrific evil that resides in people that defies explanation.



" We're all just folk. " - Mal

" AU, that was great, LOL!! " - Chrisisall

"The world is a dangerous place. Not because of the people who are evil; but because of the people who don't do anything about it." - Albert Einstein


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Saturday, May 26, 2012 5:35 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Hello,

I wonder if this is more than a sick game.

Were I in the business of strapping explosives to bodies, I'd rather use a dog than a human.

--Anthony



Note to Self:
Raptor - women who want to control their reproductive processes are sluts.
Wulf - Niki is a stupid fucking bitch who should hurry up and die.
Never forget what these men are.
“The stupid neither forgive nor forget; the naive forgive and forget; the wise forgive but do not forget.” -Thomas Szasz

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Saturday, May 26, 2012 5:58 AM

WISHIMAY

"Well, so long Earth...Thanks for the air... and what-not" -Philip J. Fry


Quote:

Originally posted by ANTHONYT:
I'd rather use a dog than a human.


They both feel pain, but I'm pretty sure a dog doen't ever do ANYTHING to ever deserve it. Humans, though...

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Saturday, May 26, 2012 6:51 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Quote:

Originally posted by Wishimay:
Quote:

Originally posted by ANTHONYT:
I'd rather use a dog than a human.


They both feel pain, but I'm pretty sure a dog doen't ever do ANYTHING to ever deserve it. Humans, though...



Hello,

I am speaking from the perspective of someone who wants to blow people up using body bombs. Please don't mistake it for my perspective or philosophy.

--Anthony



Note to Self:
Raptor - women who want to control their reproductive processes are sluts.
Wulf - Niki is a stupid fucking bitch who should hurry up and die.
Never forget what these men are.
“The stupid neither forgive nor forget; the naive forgive and forget; the wise forgive but do not forget.” -Thomas Szasz

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Saturday, May 26, 2012 7:01 AM

BYTEMITE


Dogs never fight and kill each other or eat other animals.

Look, I agree blowing up a dog is pretty much awful. But there is nothing in life that is innocent. If you object to blowing up a dog, object to blowing up a human too. Neither one "deserves" it.

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Saturday, May 26, 2012 7:50 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by BYTEMITE:
Dogs never fight and kill each other or eat other animals.

Look, I agree blowing up a dog is pretty much awful. But there is nothing in life that is innocent. If you object to blowing up a dog, object to blowing up a human too. Neither one "deserves" it.



Going off topic as to who 'deserves' such a fate... no dog ever volunteered for a bomb vest. And while most humans have been duped into it, there are more than a few , I suspect, who did do against their own will. Do this, and we'll give your family some money, and take care of them. Refuse, you and your family will be killed. What'll it be ?



" We're all just folk. " - Mal

" AU, that was great, LOL!! " - Chrisisall

"The world is a dangerous place. Not because of the people who are evil; but because of the people who don't do anything about it." - Albert Einstein


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Saturday, May 26, 2012 8:23 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Riona, I beg to differ. Dogs DO fight and kill one another, and I don't mean in dog-fighting rings (there, it's because OUR species trained them to), and they do eat other animals. My husky loves to dig for gophers and such--he's caught a few and eats them immediately. Huskies harken back to the wolf closer than many domestic breeds, but other breeds will do it too.

They just don't do either one for FUN...that's where our species differs, in my opinion.


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Saturday, May 26, 2012 11:37 AM

OONJERAH



Morality: Humans are moral creatures, responsible to learn right from wrong and
behave accordingly. Animals behave instinctively. I give all of them a pass on
morality until we get into higher primates.

As to who deserves what, I cop out. I may assign responsibility, fault and credit,
but I recoil when I see myself being judgemental. For me, the word "deserve" has
a negative charge.


=========================
I am convinced that life is 10% what happens to me and 90% of how I react to it. ~Charles R Swindoll

If I have to react to others all the time, then they own my mind more than I do.
If I let others tell me how to feel, I lose my ability to choose happiness.
If I let others tell me who I am, I've vacated self-definition.
Finally, I realized how foolish I was to give others such power.

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Saturday, May 26, 2012 12:31 PM

BYTEMITE


Quote:

Riona, I beg to differ


That wasn't Riona. I will endeavor to make the distinction clearer.

Quote:



They just don't do either one for FUN...that's where our species differs, in my opinion.



Not buying that one either. You don't think there are some times dogs hunt for fun? Cats do, dolphins do, elephants do, primates do. I think all things have darkness, all animals are capable of malice. Still does not mean they deserve to be hurt or killed - for fun - even though it does happen.

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Saturday, May 26, 2012 2:12 PM

6IXSTRINGJACK


Quote:

Originally posted by Niki2:
Sometimes, in some cases, we are an amazingly sick species...



In the end Niki, I think that the extremes some people go to are nullified by the extremes that other people go to.

This is a horrific story for sure, and I absolutely hate that anybody would even consider doing this to an animal, especially the one species of animal who seems to be born only to love its caretaker without question.



I invite you to read the last 3 posts on my General Discussions thread which were mostly about a rabbit hole in the pool crater I've been trying to fill with grass for the better of 2 months now. Everything's good with them so far. Mama Rabbit came by and fed them only 1 1/2 feet away from me when my back was turned to the hole yesterday after tentatively scouting the area for an hour before making her move. There's at least 4 baby rabbits in that hole. I can't believe she sat there feeding and caring for the babies when I was close enough to reach back and snatch her up. Man.... it's times like those I wish I had a cellphone with a camera.

Here's some pics of the babies:





It's so cool to know that there will be more of them frolicking around my yard this summer and if you've ever seen 3 or 4 babies following Mama, you know what I mean.

So far, I've had to dispose of two rabbits on my property. The first was the one who lived originally under my back porch. He was mauled by a dog. The second was the coolest rabbit I've ever seen, short of Buggs.... He didn't sit on his feet like any other rabbit I've ever seen. He was "cool" and laid on his side with his feet out.... he wouldn't even move an inch unless I came within a few feet of him. It was a sad day when I found him dead in the street after having been run over by a car. One of the young neighbors boys pointed it out to me on his way to school. After talking with him, I quickly went out and cleaned it up. I didn't want any young girls walking by and seeing that. It was really horriffic....

New babies on the way though!

I want a dog, but I know that being a single guy with no other family here, it would be unfair for me to have one when he has to hold his piss in all day when I'm working.

Actually, if they have the right temperment, I enjoy a friendly cat as well, but there's no way I'm getting a cat. I think enough people in my life question my sexuality at my ripe age today without becoming a male-version "cat-person" spinster...

So, the rabbits for me it is.....

Good luck little guys!

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Saturday, May 26, 2012 2:17 PM

6IXSTRINGJACK


Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:
Going off topic as to who 'deserves' such a fate... no dog ever volunteered for a bomb vest. And while most humans have been duped into it, there are more than a few , I suspect, who did do against their own will. Do this, and we'll give your family some money, and take care of them. Refuse, you and your family will be killed. What'll it be ?



Ever read Shirly Jackson's "The Lottery" Rap?

http://www.classicshorts.com/stories/lotry.html

Sometimes humans just do that kind of evil shit because it's tradition.....

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Saturday, May 26, 2012 2:40 PM

MAGONSDAUGHTER


Makes my blood boil too Niki.

People who hurt animals for amusement will often do the same to humans. They lack basic empathy skills. you can see it in kids sometimes. Scary.

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Saturday, May 26, 2012 3:39 PM

OONJERAH







I recall this same story from a different time, in a magazine. I believe it
was before I got my 1st computer (1985), before the 'Net was for everyone,
before YouTube. I, too, was amazed at the hippo's intelligence & compassion.

OTOH, many think cats are cruel, because they play with their food while it
is still alive. The cat drops the mouse, pats it, tries to make it run for the
fun of catching it again. When the mouse cries in fear & pain, does the cat
feel malicious joy? Who can tell? The cat will play just as attentively with a
mute, twitching lizard tail or an inanimate string wiggled by me. This play is
instinctive and trains the cat to be a good hunter.

I'm swimming in the ocean when a shark bites my leg off. Is the shark being
malicious or just eating lunch?

If I keep projecting human values, feelings and motives onto animals (plants,
objects), that's called anthropomorphism. This would be a lapse in reasoning.
But thank you for teaching it so well, Walt Disney!



=========================
I am convinced that life is 10% what happens to me and 90% of how I react to it. ~Charles R Swindoll

If I have to react to others all the time, then they own my mind more than I do.
If I let others tell me how to feel, I lose my ability to choose happiness.
If I let others tell me who I am, I've vacated self-definition.
Finally, I realized how foolish I was to give others such power over me.

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Saturday, May 26, 2012 4:07 PM

6IXSTRINGJACK


Quote:

Originally posted by Magonsdaughter:
Makes my blood boil too Niki.

People who hurt animals for amusement will often do the same to humans. They lack basic empathy skills. you can see it in kids sometimes. Scary.



It's not just today MD... My mom talks about a beloved outdoor cat she had when she was a teenager "spooky" that was allegedly skinned alive by an ex boyfriend. That bullshit has been happening since the stone age..... MANY years before organized politics made good people fight their battles for them....


Overall, in general, yes, I have no use for human beings.....

Except for 3 in my lifetime, I've never felt that any one has the ability to put other people above their own interests.

They are my most valued treasures.....

for whatever Primal reasons, we do take care of each other.




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Saturday, May 26, 2012 4:16 PM

BYTEMITE


Quote:

If I keep projecting human values, feelings and motives onto animals (plants,
objects), that's called anthropomorphism. This would be a lapse in reasoning.
But thank you for teaching it so well, Walt Disney!



Is greed a higher brain function? No? Does a lion feel satisfaction on chowing down on a fresh kill? After the frustrations of failed attempts, there must be SOMETHING to encourage the animal to keep hunting. Do they also understand mortality? They would have to.

None of the specific examples I mentioned are anything beyond the realm of science nor fact, nor are they anthromorphized beyond HUMANS ARE ANIMALS and as such animalistic behaviours, mental states, and understandings are shared in common.

There is good and evil tendencies in all things.

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Saturday, May 26, 2012 4:43 PM

6IXSTRINGJACK


Quote:

Originally posted by BYTEMITE:
Quote:

If I keep projecting human values, feelings and motives onto animals (plants,
objects), that's called anthropomorphism. This would be a lapse in reasoning.
But thank you for teaching it so well, Walt Disney!



Is greed a higher brain function? No? Does a lion feel satisfaction on chowing down on a fresh kill? After the frustrations of failed attempts, there must be SOMETHING to encourage the animal to keep hunting. Do they also understand mortality? They would have to.

None of the specific examples I mentioned are anything beyond the realm of science nor fact, nor are they anthromorphized beyond HUMANS ARE ANIMALS and as such animalistic behaviours, mental states, and understandings are shared in common.

There is good and evil tendencies in all things.



I just hope and trust that you've at least found one person in this world, Byte, that you would trust like that????

Momma Rabbit either A) had gleaned the trust I offered her from my minstrations, or B) she finally had to satisfy her bioligical imparative so much that her feeding her babies 18" from me was like "Super-Mom" lifting an 1800 pound car off of her kids' chest.



The deeper I get into personal, human interaction Byte, the more capable of Manipulation and Evil I am....

On the positive side though, I always "cup" spiders and let them outside. The growth of these baby rabbits are probably more important to me personally than their mother's biological imperatives force her to be.

If they were snakes, I'd do the same thing....

It's actually an insult to snakes that many shady humans are referred to with their species name.

They may be entirely self-serving in nature, but they can't talk like humans do. They only need sustinance and that is their meager purpose....

If you can or can't provide that accordingly, they'll just move on. And in the end, they'll never show you an ounce of loyalty for previous favors....

Cold blooded, they are.... Just like a Momma bird that would completely abandon their kids if a human touched the nest...

Warm blooded Mama Rabbit though.....

She's taking good care of my future pets.....

If only I could personally train them to stay out of the street our where my neighbors nearly Feral cats reside........

Survival of the fittest though, I guess....

I don't expect any less of any human interaction..... why should I support fully grown bunnies who are too stupid not to stay alive when they have my entire 1/3 acre to feed off of with no dogs or cats to kill them off???

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Saturday, May 26, 2012 4:45 PM

OONJERAH



Humans are Animals who have Choices.

Please show me where a Lion (male) with a full belly goes hunting.
I think he takes a nap.

Good tendencies in an animal are those that help him & his species to survive.
Bad tendencies would be those that are counter to his species' survival.
Evil is a human concept. One most of us learn at an early age. Even without
a basic but light religious education, I'd be able to see evil in people.
But it's not always simple. From one culture to another, what is held to be
evil differs a great deal.

Whose concept of evil do you want to impose on the Lion? Or any animal?


=========================
I am convinced that life is 10% what happens to me and 90% of how I react to it. ~Charles R Swindoll

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Saturday, May 26, 2012 4:56 PM

BYTEMITE


I have mostly anecdotes, but first of all, male lions don't hunt unless they're prideless. Lionesses do. Basically that's a loaded question. However, I'd hardly call those bunch of cub killers innocent.

But you didn't specify AGAINST anecdotal evidence of lions continuing to hunt and kill after feeding, so.

http://www.africanwildlifeguide.com/articles/life-of-lions/killing-for
-survival


Listen, evil is a subjective thing, and I'll agree there, but some things are vicious, cruel, brutal. Killing the young (and sometimes followed by cannibalism), rape and gang rape, killing when there is no hunger. MANY animals do these things, not just humans. Desperation and resource conflicts are sometimes the root cause, but sometimes there are no observable reasons for the brutality that can be observed. Some animals are bad tempered, born with an aggression disorder. Some are under stress. Some do the same thing over and over without a known cause. Some elephants will crush or gore another animal then watch their death spasms, then do it again to another animal. Dolphin males will work together to corral an obviously agitated female then rape her, taking turns and sometimes taking so long that she then drowns, or she later succumbs to her injuries.

This idea that humans are just so evil, and animals are not, I can't agree with it. Every living thing is/can be equally bad, and equally good, there is no point in this judgement of one to be better than another. Perhaps EVERYTHING has value regardless of what it does or whether it's innocent or not.



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Saturday, May 26, 2012 5:17 PM

HKCAVALIER


True compassion begins with compassion for one's self. Anything else is codependence and ultimately self-nulification and self-hate. The cat feels the joy of the hunt, of course, but someone would have to prove to me that its joy arises from a delight in inflicting pain. Everyone here probably has experienced the joy of winning a game--was your joy based on how much pain you were inflicting on the loser? Humans are the only species I know of that overthink things to such a degree. Enjoy your gifts and let others enjoy theirs.

Humans are the only animals that routinely have a problem with self-acceptance--something to do with our peculiar self-awareness. Animals generally don't have much choice in the matter.

We are the only species that nurtures our self-loathing, institutionalizes it and passes it on from generation to generation. And out of that self-hatred comes all the evils we can inflict upon the world.

Greed is a hunger to fill a void that cannot be filled. It is self-negating and maladaptive in social animals. That void can only be emptied and healed through grief, a reconnection with one's social group at the level of the heart. No healthy animal, humans included, experiences greed.

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

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Saturday, May 26, 2012 5:23 PM

BYTEMITE


Quote:

"A few years ago if you asked a scientist to discuss animal emotions they might laugh at you," said Robert Defranco, director of the Animal Behavior Center in Queens, N.Y., and author of several research papers on animal emotions.

Defranco says animals definitely have primary emotions like fear. They can also feel anger. And now there is growing evidence that they have secondary emotions like love, jealousy and greed. The proof may rest in the part of the brain called the amygdala. It's believed that fear and possibly other emotions are linked to neurons in the amygdala.



http://abcnews.go.com/US/story?id=90169&page=1

This is logical and obvious. Humans are animals, and animals ultimately aren't that different.

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Saturday, May 26, 2012 6:10 PM

OONJERAH


Quote Bytemite: "But you didn't specify AGAINST anecdotal evidence of lions
continuing to hunt and kill after feeding, so.

http://www.africanwildlifeguide.com/articles/life-of-lions/killing-for
-survival
"

I think they killed the mongoose and the dove for fun. Animals like to play.
On a full stomach, a drink of water makes sense. Killing a buffalo calf and its mom
while full doesn't sound like fun. As the buffalo is one of their main food sources,
this was wasteful. (I'm pretty sure something came along and ate the buffalo and
her calf. Jackals, vultures.)
I have heard of predators wasting their food before. I'd chalk it up to a bad instinct.
I don't call it evil.

When the predators are successful, their numbers grow. In a few years, they will kill
off the prey animals in their area. Then most of the predators will die of starvation.
They are now unsuccessful. With the predators all or mostly dead, prey animals from
distant herds will eventually come to graze there and be successful. Predators will
follow.

This cycle goes on continuously. It's called the Balance of Nature. It applies to
humans, too.



=========================
I am convinced that life is 10% what happens to me and 90% of how I react to it. ~Charles R Swindoll

If I have to react to others all the time, then they own my mind more than I do.
If I let others tell me how to feel, I lose my ability to choose happiness.
If I let others tell me who I am, I've vacated self-definition.
Finally, I realized how foolish I was to give others such power over me.

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Saturday, May 26, 2012 6:16 PM

BYTEMITE


Quote:

I have heard of predators wasting their food before. I'd chalk it up to a bad instinct.
I don't call it evil.



Well, perhaps calling it evil was over the top on my part. I was merely trying to illustrate that humans and animals aren't so different, and the implication in this thread was that "humans are evil."

I think it's more like "some humans and animals do some uncool things to other humans or animals sometimes."

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Sunday, May 27, 2012 6:28 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Six, that's fantastic, I'm envious! As to snakes, I've had them for decades, and some even have personalities, as I've mentioned before. Yeah, I move spiders carefully, too, especially our Daddy Long Legs, as I respect them for keeping other insects in check. There are only two species I will kill: flies and earwigs. Flies because I can't let them live in the house, earwigs because I just have a "thing" about them; they give me the creeps and always have, so if one is near me, I don't want ANY chances it will get nearer! I "rescue" worms after a heavy storm too; mostly I like to respect all life.

Byte, we'll have to agree to disagree I'm afraid. In the instance of a cat "playing" with a mouse, as mentioned, that's instinct. Cats big and small teach their young how to hunt that way. As for other species hunting "for fun", I would say they do so out of instinct, rather than for fun. Certainly animals play...again in the case of cats, it's a learning skill, whereas dolphins, river otters, crows and ravens play just for the enjoyment, as has been documented many times. But killing for fun? I find it hard to believe; in the wild, hunting puts an animal in the way of potential injury, and injury is death, so why a species would hunt for any reason other than sustenance or training the young is beyond me. Whatever instincts make animals kill "for fun" is, in my opinion, just beyond our understanding; to attribute causes to things we don't fully understand IS anthropomorphizing, to me. I don't see any species as "vicious, cruel, brutal"; there's always a reason for their actions. I don't see humans that way either, actually, as there's always a reason they behave that way, if one looks closely enough. But as Cav said, we are the only ones who behave SO maladaptively and not have it affect the others of our species, and the only ones who pass these things on to our young.

You also didn't read the title of the thread, or you would have noted the word "sometimes". I happen to think there is a vast difference between humans and animals--we've been through this discussion before. I see humans as having choice, animals for the most part being ruled by instincts. People do good and bad things, and often, if not most of the time, do them for psychological reasons. They also do amazingly compassionate things sometimes. To ascribe "jealousy" to a wild species doesn't work for me...the urge to procreate causes many things and is strong in all species (including our own). I can't view anything animals do as "greed"; hoarding food, protecting it from others, is survival mechanism. We are just so much more complex that, in my mind, it's harder to find the reasons for some things. But they're there.

Now DOMESTICATED animals, that's different. They HAVE taken on a lot of our own qualities, dogs in particular, because we've molded them that way. But I don't see wild species having human traits.

And yes, it's often the case that humans who go on to be killers, abusers, etc., start with animals. Also that youngsters don't fully understand empathy, something it should be up to their parents to teach them.
Quote:

Good tendencies in an animal are those that help him & his species to survive.
That about says it all for me.

As to male lions killing cubs, that's instinct too and for me doesn't make them "evil". I hate it, but it's nature's way; generally it is a new pride leader who will kill the cubs of previous leaders, so that the female can be impregnated again with his own progeny. Numerous species do this. Nature usually has good reasons for everything; there are exceptions, of course, but again, it is my opinion that we don't understand enough to give them "good" or "evil" designations. Because there are no observable reasons that we don't understand, to leap to the conclusion of good or evil IS anthropomorphizing in it's perfect form.

When it comes to dolphins--and ducks, by the way--it's not "gang rape" or even "rape"...it's the instinct of the males to be the one who mates, and who mates depends on who "gets the gal". It's the ANCILLARY result that females die, not the intent.

Cav, you pretty much summed up the whole debate, in my opinion. While there are instances of animals protecting others or trying to help others, they are rare and I'm not sure why it happens, but obviously it does. The hippo could be confusing the antelope with one of its species young or something--we just don't know.

Predators "wasting" food is part of Nature's plan. They sometimes walk away when they're full, and that leaves the rest for the predators further down the chain. Some predators, like leopards, pull the remainder of their prey up into trees for the next meal, others don't.


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Sunday, May 27, 2012 7:42 AM

BYTEMITE


Quote:

Cats big and small teach their young how to hunt that way.


Right, so grown animals with no young to look after doing the same thing is just "practice." Like an animal thinks about needing practice. They think about what satisfies their survival instinct, therefore, what is enjoyable. You know animals have endorphin and serotonin rushes under much the same circumstances that humans do?

The grown cat isn't thinking about "teaching" its young. It gives its young cast off food it caught when it wasn't hungry. The young then hunt the cast off food, which they do well on their own and already have the hunter instincts. The motor skills need development, true, but it all comes back to why do they do it? Survival. What reinforces the survival instinct? Satisfaction and enjoyment.

Animals derive satisfication from killing and eating living things. There's really no getting around that. Animals will also kill members of their own species - for resources, for mating opportunities, everything that humans also do. Just being aware of it or not isn't really an excuse - a mad human who doesn't live by the rules of our society and kills and rapes their way around isn't inherently a better creature than the person who has those inclinations and doesn't. There are fine lines, once crossed, that there's no returning from. We are all one wrong step away from brutism. You make excuses for one group, but not the other. If you believe this world is admirable, you should be making excuses for both, and if you don't believe this world is admirable, you should make excuses for none.

Quote:

When it comes to dolphins--and ducks, by the way--it's not "gang rape" or even "rape"...it's the instinct of the males to be the one who mates, and who mates depends on who "gets the gal". It's the ANCILLARY result that females die, not the intent.


This differs from human rape how?

Quote:

I happen to think there is a vast difference between humans and animals--we've been through this discussion before. I see humans as having choice, animals for the most part being ruled by instincts. People do good and bad things, and often, if not most of the time, do them for psychological reasons. They also do amazingly compassionate things sometimes. To ascribe "jealousy" to a wild species doesn't work for me...the urge to procreate causes many things and is strong in all species (including our own). I can't view anything animals do as "greed"; hoarding food, protecting it from others, is survival mechanism. We are just so much more complex that, in my mind, it's harder to find the reasons for some things. But they're there.


Everything you said humans do, wild animals do as well. Humans are ruled by instinct and survival mechanisms too. We're actually not that complex. Deprived of rational thought by circumstances, humans will act on their emotions without choice, will fight, will kill, will rape, will covet, will survive. Ignore that animals have an animal side, and that humans have an animal side and basis, and of course nothing will make sense.

The evils I speak of are inherent in this world, not an issue of blame, not animals are evil or humans are evil - ultimately animals survive and humans survive, and neither one qualifies in the long run as good or evil. But the fact makes me no less angry about the way of things. I only SPEAK of good and evil because the suggestion was introduced that humans are evil (or "sick") and animals are not. Creation and destruction are equal forces, and there isn't anything that is immune to either one.

Quote:

While anthropomorphism has generally taken on a negative connotation in science, there is also the risk of science assuming that only humans possess any degree of certain traits. This is called anthropocentrism, whose practitioners either believe in or unintentionally form an outlook of human exceptionalism. Darwin dismissed these ideas of human exceptionalism in his book The Descent of Man, to the chagrin of many religious philosophers, by saying that our differences are "only in degree, and not in kind."


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anthropomorphism

You are all exhibiting a belief in negative human exceptionalism. Giving humans less credit than evidence would suggest is no more substantiated than giving humans or animals more credit than evidence would suggest.

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Sunday, May 27, 2012 10:44 AM

OONJERAH


Dictionary:
Evil: morally reprehensible, wrong or bad; sinful, wicked, immoral, causing harm

Oonj's personal definitions:

Evil: morally reprehensible, wrong <= that's coherent, true to me.
But for a person, animal or plant to DO evil, it must be conscious of morality.
As a child, I was taught that children sometimes do wrong when they don't know
any better. They are then told it was wrong, but not punished. If they understand
what they are told, they now have a choice in this behavior.

Bad is very ambiguous. I build a new device; it doesn't work because of a design flaw;
that's called "a bad idea." It's not immoral. Bad can mean immoral or ugly or simply
doesn't work.

Wicked: If I do something destructive out of anger, that's wicked. If I choose to nurse
and sustain my anger, then I'm headed for evil.

Sin, sinful: Words I avoid because they are too heavily charged with guilt trip. Sins,
as I know them, are defined in the Old Testament and quite often make little sense.
"Thou shalt not plow with an ox and an ass together."

An evil person is one who knowingly does harm for greed, pleasure. Includes using fear
& intimidation for unlawful, social control. Evil = abusive, cruel.

Evil is heard as heavy on morality. Bad is not.
That's just me. Others will have different meanings for words. Miscommunication will happen.

Humans have morals. Animals have instincts.
Humans abusing animals makes me mad. Animals abusing animals makes me sad.

=========================
I am convinced that life is 10% what happens to me and 90% of how I react to it. ~Charles R Swindoll

If I have to react to others all the time, then they own my mind more than I do.
If I let others tell me how to feel, I lose my ability to choose happiness.
If I let others tell me who I am, I've vacated self-definition.
Finally, I realized how foolish I was to give others such power over me.

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Sunday, May 27, 2012 11:31 AM

BYTEMITE


I generally use the "causing harm" definition with a side order of "derived satisfaction from it" (malice and/or intent). But "bad" works for me in the context of this conversation as well.

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Sunday, May 27, 2012 4:22 PM

6IXSTRINGJACK


Quote:

Originally posted by BYTEMITE:
Quote:

I have heard of predators wasting their food before. I'd chalk it up to a bad instinct.
I don't call it evil.



Well, perhaps calling it evil was over the top on my part. I was merely trying to illustrate that humans and animals aren't so different, and the implication in this thread was that "humans are evil."

I think it's more like "some humans and animals do some uncool things to other humans or animals sometimes."



I see no argument with this idea. Some humans who are capable and do many cool things are just as equally capapable and have likely done equally as uncool things as well.

As for animals... When I was horrified that I probably signed the babies death warrant by accidentally touching the nest, I found a wealth of information beyond my initial question. Fortunately, as I said before, Mamma rabbit will not neglect her children because of human scent. As long as they're still alive, she's taking care of them.

But what amazed me was the thing about the domesticated outdoor cats. It seems feral cats will kill out of necessity quickly for a meal. Domesticated outdoor cats would never eat a baby rabbit when they have premium cat food and milk back home. They do it for fun.... And I'm talking like Tom REALLY trying to KILL Jerry in the most painful and evil "It Puts The Lotion In The Basket!" kind of way.....

These cats will actually torment and eventually skin the babies alive if they find the nest.

My brother's tiny dog would too, but just because she was playing too rough. That I can understand... but why would any animal without Man's capacity to analyze and self-analyze do such a thing? Even in the pro-hunting world, any person I've talked to prides themselves on instant kills and making the most of every usable aspect of the kill afterward. Only truly sick people would ever torture or even quickly kill an animal only for enjoyment.

It's beyond my comprehension......




Hehe Niki,

I'm was just thrilled to see the three rabbits out in my yard, feeding and the two of the "lovers" chasing each other around. I didn't realize until when Momma came back and fed next to me that the "clicking" sounds I was hearing were not from her, but from the babies feeding. After the two bunny deaths within a month by me, I thought they were all gone. :( Now I should have a lot more if they grow up healthy. :)

I killed a few mice living in my house this winter that were eating bread through the package and terrorizing me for a month. The first one I saw, since I have LARGE spiders on the brain since I've moved here and seen bigger spiders than I've ever seen, slowly creeped under the bathroom door and somehow disappeared in the vanity as I was sitting on the pot.... when it charged, I jumped about 4 feet high, thinking I was being rushed by a giant spider!!!!

Other than that, I do kill ants in my house and I threw all of the grubs in my lawn out, assuming they may have survived the ride to the dump.

I wouldn't even bother removing daddy long-legs and other small spiders. I'm thankful they're around to patrol the area. The only ones I make an effort to get outside are the freakin' GIGANTIC black spiders we have around these parts. They're probably harmless, but I have no clue if that's true, and with a leg-span of about 4", I don't care to knowingly put myself in the position of finding out that they're poisonous in my sleep. I've noticed that 4 of them are dead in the basement now, and I haven't seen a living one in the house for over 6 months (Although I have seen one out on the patio and one in the garage. Don't know what killed them, but I'm hoping that it's a lack of "fresh meat" to eat inside the house. After doing the mold remediation and keeping the house clean, the only pests I see are the occasional troupe of tiny black ants and the 4 poor mice that died in traps.



I see you made a note about "domesticated" animals in the rest of your post to Byte. Maybe that is true, about a domesticated animal taking on the traits of his owner. I'd like to think that my Grandma's cat Shadow who remembers me and comes and curls up on my lap and purrs up a storm whenever I visit would never do such horrifying things to baby rabbits (And to this day, I'm still the ONLY person she'll do crawl up on). But of the 4 cats out of the 7 still alive today since I moved out, she's the only one I could say that about. The rest of them are mean and nasty. My aunt, who lives with my grandma, hates that my Grandma says that if Shadow outlives her she's coming to live with me. I'd never buy a cat, but if that situation were to ever unfortunately arise, I would be more than happy to be her guardian. (I'll pass on the other three though, thank you very much....)



When I did have cable, I watched that show about the Huston SPCA all the time.

As much as my instincts wanted me to say it wasn't right that these people's privacy was being invaded by pseudo-cops, I couldn't deny that it had to be done. Had that dude in the news in the last few years let his nearly feral daughter play on the swings while chained to a rock a few hours a day before he thrust her back into that dark basement, she probably wouldn't have been damn near "legal" age before somebody stepped in. When these people live in an apartment with 40 cats that smell like death 2 floors up or they have a dog who has hair 8 inches long covered in mud and germs and bugs and mange and they let them roam outside like that, something has to be done.

Hell.... I even give my $8.00 Target Special box fan a hosedown every year. At the very least, if they're not going to shampoo, they could try to hose that filth out of the hair with a power wash. All I can think is that somebody who would allow some of these dogs to even be seen outside are so clueless about hygene and personal apperances that they go a week or more without showers themselves and might not even know what shampoo is??????



Quote:

Originally posted by Niki2:
Six, that's fantastic, I'm envious! As to snakes, I've had them for decades, and some even have personalities, as I've mentioned before. Yeah, I move spiders carefully, too, especially our Daddy Long Legs, as I respect them for keeping other insects in check. There are only two species I will kill: flies and earwigs. Flies because I can't let them live in the house, earwigs because I just have a "thing" about them; they give me the creeps and always have, so if one is near me, I don't want ANY chances it will get nearer! I "rescue" worms after a heavy storm too; mostly I like to respect all life.

Byte, we'll have to agree to disagree I'm afraid. In the instance of a cat "playing" with a mouse, as mentioned, that's instinct. Cats big and small teach their young how to hunt that way. As for other species hunting "for fun", I would say they do so out of instinct, rather than for fun. Certainly animals play...again in the case of cats, it's a learning skill, whereas dolphins, river otters, crows and ravens play just for the enjoyment, as has been documented many times. But killing for fun? I find it hard to believe; in the wild, hunting puts an animal in the way of potential injury, and injury is death, so why a species would hunt for any reason other than sustenance or training the young is beyond me. Whatever instincts make animals kill "for fun" is, in my opinion, just beyond our understanding; to attribute causes to things we don't fully understand IS anthropomorphizing, to me. I don't see any species as "vicious, cruel, brutal"; there's always a reason for their actions. I don't see humans that way either, actually, as there's always a reason they behave that way, if one looks closely enough. But as Cav said, we are the only ones who behave SO maladaptively and not have it affect the others of our species, and the only ones who pass these things on to our young.

You also didn't read the title of the thread, or you would have noted the word "sometimes". I happen to think there is a vast difference between humans and animals--we've been through this discussion before. I see humans as having choice, animals for the most part being ruled by instincts. People do good and bad things, and often, if not most of the time, do them for psychological reasons. They also do amazingly compassionate things sometimes. To ascribe "jealousy" to a wild species doesn't work for me...the urge to procreate causes many things and is strong in all species (including our own). I can't view anything animals do as "greed"; hoarding food, protecting it from others, is survival mechanism. We are just so much more complex that, in my mind, it's harder to find the reasons for some things. But they're there.

Now DOMESTICATED animals, that's different. They HAVE taken on a lot of our own qualities, dogs in particular, because we've molded them that way. But I don't see wild species having human traits.

And yes, it's often the case that humans who go on to be killers, abusers, etc., start with animals. Also that youngsters don't fully understand empathy, something it should be up to their parents to teach them.
Quote:

Good tendencies in an animal are those that help him & his species to survive.
That about says it all for me.

As to male lions killing cubs, that's instinct too and for me doesn't make them "evil". I hate it, but it's nature's way; generally it is a new pride leader who will kill the cubs of previous leaders, so that the female can be impregnated again with his own progeny. Numerous species do this. Nature usually has good reasons for everything; there are exceptions, of course, but again, it is my opinion that we don't understand enough to give them "good" or "evil" designations. Because there are no observable reasons that we don't understand, to leap to the conclusion of good or evil IS anthropomorphizing in it's perfect form.

When it comes to dolphins--and ducks, by the way--it's not "gang rape" or even "rape"...it's the instinct of the males to be the one who mates, and who mates depends on who "gets the gal". It's the ANCILLARY result that females die, not the intent.

Cav, you pretty much summed up the whole debate, in my opinion. While there are instances of animals protecting others or trying to help others, they are rare and I'm not sure why it happens, but obviously it does. The hippo could be confusing the antelope with one of its species young or something--we just don't know.

Predators "wasting" food is part of Nature's plan. They sometimes walk away when they're full, and that leaves the rest for the predators further down the chain. Some predators, like leopards, pull the remainder of their prey up into trees for the next meal, others don't.



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Monday, May 28, 2012 8:33 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


I can't watch those SPCA shows--and there are several here, with different names. I watch Dog Whisperer and especially my favorite, Dogtown, about Best Friends animal sanctuary, which broke my heart to discover it was cancelled after only four years. It obviously didn't garner enough of an audience...while the damned Kardashians and this new "Black Out" and other stupid (but cheap!) reality shows have people hanging on their every word.

But the Animal Cops shows I can't bear to watch...too much suffering and too much anger at being reminded of just HOW horrible some of our species can be.

As to the activities of domesticated cats, yes, tho' many instincts (now unnecessary) remain, we have definitely screwed up domesticated species like dogs and cats in many ways. Not to mention what we bred them for and how it's screwed them up physically and mentally! One of the reasons I'm into huskies is they're not that far removed from wolves, and until recently...sigh...weren't overbred (yet). If you spend any time around huskies, you can see all the traits of wolves in them. My remarks were about domesticated pets in general taking on aspects we've encouraged, not taking on the owner's--tho' there is no doubt in my mind that there are actually no "bad" dogs, only bad owners. And how owners relate to their dogs definitely helps mold the dog; if one were to watch Dog Whisperer for say five episodes, it would be disgustingly obvious that many humans treat dogs like "babies", having not a clue about being alpha, let them get away with things they wouldn't take for a second from humans, never bothering with training then wondering why they act out so badly, etc. Virtually every episode has at least one segment I watch while shaking my head at the idiocy of some humans.

One that stuck with me was a woman who spent a lot of time cooking just the right thing for her dog every day, while she served her family TV dinners! Seriously...poor Cesar was hard pressed to keep a straight face when he saw that. I think he's amazing in many respects, one of which is the patience he shows the stupid owners...like the one who was obsessed with pink, so had her dog died pink all the time and considered him a fashion accessory! Some of us are truly weird...

I don't know so much about taking on the traits of individual owners, but we have definitely changed dogs. Saw a thing on the difference between wolves and dogs; trying to figure out how to get to food, the wolves kept trying on their own, the dogs sat down and looked to the person. Just one example of many.

I'm still envious of your baby bunnies! One of the things I never knew about rabbits until I had them is that they show pleasure by "grinding" their teeth! It's their equivalent of wagging their tails or purring, and it's quite a compliment when they do it for you when you stroke them.


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Monday, May 28, 2012 9:20 AM

BYTEMITE


That's a fair argument, I think that some of what we've done with our pets is that we've made them basically perpetual kittens and puppies through breeding and reinforcement.

I just don't think we can rule out that some of their less adorable behaviours don't have a wild animal ancestral basis.

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Monday, May 28, 2012 12:44 PM

RIONAEIRE

Beir bua agus beannacht


Niki a chara, I think its quite humorous that you mixed up me and Byte, even though we're good friends we are quite different. I'm sure it was just an accident. Its really awful that someone would do this to a dog.

I think animals can be nice or mean, variation depending on individuals. But I never thought of them in terms of good or evil.

Jack, so there was a semi feral girl on the SPCA show?

I assume you're my pal until you let me know otherwise.

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya.

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Monday, May 28, 2012 8:20 PM

6IXSTRINGJACK


I can't watch those SPCA shows either anymore... but that's just because I don't have cable anymore

Dog Whisperer is AWESOME. Cesar truly is the man. I consider myself to be great with dogs, and even cats, but I'll never be able to do some of the things he can do. My brother called me after I left his house for the barbecue tonight to tell me that his dog Lelu was whining at the door after I left. He thought she needed to pee. When he went out with her, all she did was run down to the end of the driveway where my car was... I guess I'm the only person who she lets pick up and hold like a baby and just sits there and lets me rub her belly... she even licks my face. If anybody else tries that she struggles and squirms until she's free.

She's a little Corgi that is nearly full grown and probably weighs just shy of 12 lbs.



(That's not her, but they all look remarkably the same when they're in shape)

Last Christmas, I was able to put my Aunt and Uncle's Pug on my lap for about an hour while a bunch of us were sitting together talking. My aunt says she never saw her sit like that for anyone before. I swear that dog was purring like a cat. Ugly little gremlin face beast she was..... poor pugs....



My mom and step-dad have a Bull Terrier.... which in my opinion is a very regal looking creature.



That dog doesn't get walked a lot when it should because my step-dad is always too busy with his business and my mom is getting older and has MS and a 75 lb dog that goes wild when it sees other dogs can drag her all over the place. I do a little Cesar "shhhhhhh" and jabbing when dogs are coming around though while I'm out having a smoke and he shuts up.

One weekend I went with them to their Michigan cottage to help repair the car-port roof, he got away from me. I used to walk him without a leash, but he ruined that on that day. He thought I was playing, and the faster I'd run after him, he'd just look back laughingly and gain twice the distance.... so I just walked. Over half a mile later I caught up to him in the back yard of somebody's Mansion-Like summer home. He'd been barking up a storm like crazy against a big golden dog that I swear was twice his size. Had the dog had a bad temperment and had not been teathered to his dog-house, I think he would have ripped Axel to pieces... and that's saying A LOT since Axel is 80 lbs of brick-shit-house. At least he was smart enough to keep his distance while barking and growling at the other dog. Fortunately enough, the neighbors, if they were home, were also smart enough to stay inside and I didn't have somebody yelling at me while chasing him around the lawn.

Eventually I got his collar and started dragging him by it. (I wish I had his leash). He was fighting me every step of the way, looking back in anger and growling at the other dog. Finally, I lost my patience and, my back was starting to hurt from bending down and parctically dragging him (Bull Terriers are heavy, but they're short and have a very low center of gravity). I reached down and picked him up and hoisted him over my right shoulder and lugged his 80 lbs ass back to the cottage (over 4 blocks away). What a spectacle that must have been to watch by anyone who witnessed it. To my surprise, he didn't struggle at all the whole way. He was probably in shock since nobody had ever done that before.

To this day, whenever I visit them, he's the first to the door and he jumps around in circles when he sees me. It's really funny and I wish I had a video of it to post. My mom and step-dad always say "what did you do to our dog" whenever I leave because he seems really lethargic for a few days after I leave. I know he misses his big bro. We were inseparable for the 4 months I lived there last year.



But that's the reason I'll never be Cesar.... I don't think that he'd ever be able to lug an 80 lb dog on his shoulder for nearly 5 blocks if his life depended on it, but he'd never have to. I probably know what the dog is thinking and the right thing to do 80% of the time or more, but that man knows nearly 100%, and the very few he can't save, I truly believe need to be put down. If Cesar tells the owners that their dog is a lost cause, in my mind, in the extremely few occasions it's ever happened, I take his word as fact.





As for the bunnies, it's funny you mentioned the grinding of teeth. That's probably the weird noise I was hearing while Mama Rabbit was perched over the hole. I just imagined that it was coming from the babies feeding after I discovered they were there, but that sound would be much better explained by tooth grinding.

I'm sure it's an enjoyable experience for her. It's probably part of her DNA makeup to get physical pleasure out of the act otherwise, without human capacity for emotional attachment or any "logical" ideas of NEEDING to take care of her young, maybe "nature" dictates that after having given birth one of her main driving urges for feeding her young is the pleasurable sensations she feels.



Not trying to be crass, but being a male I could never know these answers. This idea begs the question......

Is there any physical pleasure derived from a human Mother feeding her children?

I'm not asking if there is any mental pleasure, or any other form of conscious acknowledgement of this, because that could very well turn out to be a "Norman Bates" situation 30 years down the road.....

I'm just wondering if the act of feeding babies for a Mother is more than just "Duty", and this biological imperative is why many mothers still breast feed rather than feed formula which has been blamed by some to cause mild autisim in children today.

I'd imagine that there has to be some latent fulfillment on both an emotional as well as a physical level, without any better words in my vocabulary to describe the act.




You've actually stroked the bunnies?????

I'm envious of you now. The only one I ever got close enough to was the lazy one who got killed in the street. Sure, Mama Rabbit fed her kids only 1 1/2 feet away from me, but I didn't want to disturb her and scare her off so I didn't try.

How'd you manage that??????
Quote:

Originally posted by Niki2:
I can't watch those SPCA shows--and there are several here, with different names. I watch Dog Whisperer and especially my favorite, Dogtown, about Best Friends animal sanctuary, which broke my heart to discover it was cancelled after only four years. It obviously didn't garner enough of an audience...while the damned Kardashians and this new "Black Out" and other stupid (but cheap!) reality shows have people hanging on their every word.

But the Animal Cops shows I can't bear to watch...too much suffering and too much anger at being reminded of just HOW horrible some of our species can be.

As to the activities of domesticated cats, yes, tho' many instincts (now unnecessary) remain, we have definitely screwed up domesticated species like dogs and cats in many ways. Not to mention what we bred them for and how it's screwed them up physically and mentally! One of the reasons I'm into huskies is they're not that far removed from wolves, and until recently...sigh...weren't overbred (yet). If you spend any time around huskies, you can see all the traits of wolves in them. My remarks were about domesticated pets in general taking on aspects we've encouraged, not taking on the owner's--tho' there is no doubt in my mind that there are actually no "bad" dogs, only bad owners. And how owners relate to their dogs definitely helps mold the dog; if one were to watch Dog Whisperer for say five episodes, it would be disgustingly obvious that many humans treat dogs like "babies", having not a clue about being alpha, let them get away with things they wouldn't take for a second from humans, never bothering with training then wondering why they act out so badly, etc. Virtually every episode has at least one segment I watch while shaking my head at the idiocy of some humans.

One that stuck with me was a woman who spent a lot of time cooking just the right thing for her dog every day, while she served her family TV dinners! Seriously...poor Cesar was hard pressed to keep a straight face when he saw that. I think he's amazing in many respects, one of which is the patience he shows the stupid owners...like the one who was obsessed with pink, so had her dog died pink all the time and considered him a fashion accessory! Some of us are truly weird...

I don't know so much about taking on the traits of individual owners, but we have definitely changed dogs. Saw a thing on the difference between wolves and dogs; trying to figure out how to get to food, the wolves kept trying on their own, the dogs sat down and looked to the person. Just one example of many.

I'm still envious of your baby bunnies! One of the things I never knew about rabbits until I had them is that they show pleasure by "grinding" their teeth! It's their equivalent of wagging their tails or purring, and it's quite a compliment when they do it for you when you stroke them.



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Monday, May 28, 2012 8:43 PM

6IXSTRINGJACK


Quote:

Originally posted by RionaEire:
Jack, so there was a semi feral girl on the SPCA show?



LOL...

No Riona....

Sorry if my "stream-of-consciousness" confounded you. And thanks for pointing it out. I know I can ramble endlessly and merge things together that make sense in my own mind but get completely misinterpreted because I don't explain them right...

On the "funny" side of that, your post made me think of the Howie Mandel movie from the 80's called "Walk Like a Man"



On the more tragic side, what I was referring to was the story of an unnamed, underage girl found roaming the streets after she finally escaped the house she was being trapped in (People Under the Stairs type scary shit).

http://lightingtheirwayhome.wordpress.com/2012/03/06/15-year-old-girl-
locked-in-basement-for-the-past-years-forced-to-drink-her-own-urine-and-eat-her-own-feces
/

If you think, and rightfully so, that the fact that any human could treat an animal like this.....

Humans?????? Family members??????

I won't even bother going into detail about how this "family" was scamming the government to get a nice looking house to live in dirt cheap because of defrauding the government because of this.

Even if this girl is uglier than the pug I posted before and has serious genetic flaws like mongolism, WTF?????? SERIOUSLY??????

People are really capable of doing this evil shit to their own blood??????

This girl, if she was even allowed access to books and was able to read beyond a 1st grade level, would have loved reading Cinderella's Disney story, not because of the happy ending, but because she wished she could be treated as well at home as Cinderella was by her supposed "family".



In the end, I've seen even more evil shit committed against pets on the SPCA show, but this is a human being we're talking about. Over half of the last 6 years she got such a meager amount of food and drink for sustinance she lived off of any bugs crawling on the floors and her own urine and defecation. Howie Mandel had it good being raised by wolves.

If I didn't have it well off enough to worry about things to lose, this entire family would be on my "List"

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Tuesday, May 29, 2012 3:48 AM

BYTEMITE


Quote:

Is there any physical pleasure derived from a human Mother feeding her children?

I'm not asking if there is any mental pleasure, or any other form of conscious acknowledgement of this, because that could very well turn out to be a "Norman Bates" situation 30 years down the road.....



Well... TECHNICALLY the nipple IS erectile tissue. Oxytocin, a pleasure and anxiety reducing hormone, is released via stimulation of the tissue, as in breast feeding, and also during orgasm, child-birth, and so on.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oxytocin

I'm going to go curl up in the brain bleach stockpile now. I'll be in there for a WHILE, there will be some mad guzzling. Those of you who were breastfed may want to take some sort of shower and lament the eldritch horrors of the world.

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Tuesday, May 29, 2012 5:21 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Sorry Riona, yes, I do that sometimes.

Jack, my rabbits were pets, if you didn't know. Midi in particular LOVED to be stroked, I got lots of "tooth grinding" AND KISSES, which none of the other bunnies gave me. She was my baby, I will always miss her. But even with her, I had to get down on the ground to stroke her--dwarf bunnies aren't that hot on being held. But all of them liked being stroked and gave tooth grinds in their different ways. Mouse was the hardest--as she'd been in the pet shop so long, she'd been picked up by tons of people--it always made me angry to see kids pick them up and the way they handled them (thank goodness Elvis--the pet store owner--finally put up signs). Her personality was probably skittish to begin with, as she was a Dwarf Jack, and that made it worse. So it took a while for her to come to me to get stroked, and even then, she'd scuttle away periodically, especially if I moved or there was a noise, but always come back within a few seconds. Bunnies are GREAT!

So we go back to me envying you; being anywhere close to WILD bunnies, especially a nest of babies, would be a dream come true for me.

They all especially liked it when I covered their head with my palm, or stroked with the palm from nose on...made them feel safe, I think. Bunnies don't often feel safe, being prey for just about everything! ;o) Yes, it's quite possible that's what you were hearing...you said "clicking" and I've never been around baby rabbits, so I didn't make the connection. She could also be expressing happiness at finding her wee ones still there and unhurt, who knows?

Corgies and beagles are the only two "small" dogs I like--oh, and Shiba Inu, ever since Raptor put up the video of them. Too many small dogs have "Napoleon complexes", but those two (dunno about Shibas) are the only ones I've met who actually don't seem to realize they're small...hence no need for trying to make everyone else think they're big and fierce. The corgies and beagles I've known WANT to play with the big dogs, rather than be afraid of them or put up a bold front. I admire that.

Shit, I could go on forever about Cesar. What amuses me most is he gets called in to fix the dog, and virtually always it's the HUMAN who needs the help. Even if he has to "fix" the dog's behavior, he usually does it fairly quickly, then has to teach the humans how to stop doing what they've been doing. Often, it ends up with the humans saying he's changed THEIR lives, too, which always makes me smile.

It's too bad that dog doesn't get walked more. That breed NEEDS regular exercise, and I'd guess part of why he's so unmanageable is he doesn't get enough. I do, however, FULLY sympathize with you about his running away--I DO have huskies, you know. Sometimes even after we've taken them out, Kochak will get a bug up her ass and take off when we let them out of the car at home. She's just playing, like your guy, but the very WORST thing you can do then is chase them. In our case, I just have to wait, or follow her from a distance, just to be sure she doesn't get hit by a car (ours is a quiet neighborhood, thank goodness) until she gets bored of the game and comes. Bitch! But in most cases, the smart thing to do is go the other way, making excited noises and ignoring the dog...they usually run after you. Certainly with huskies, the LAST thing you do is try to chase them...that's the best game of all! Tho' with your guy, he might have heard or smelled the other dog, who knows?

You missed something about Cesar, too. How many times have you seen him have to deal with a runaway dog? Rarely; he takes dogs out on leashes, and the only time they're off leash is at dog parks, almost exclusively. I thought about buying his books or discs, but when I realized that, I wondered if he'd ever chosen to deal with that problem. I DID see him once, in a huge enclosed pasture, deal with the dog not coming, and he did exactly what we do, sound excited and go the other way. But, given that's our biggest problem with the huskies, I figured he didn't have any answers we don't already know. ;o) They always come back, but when I walk them up at the Divide they've kept me waiting for as long as an hour and a half, and once chased a deer all the way to the bottom of a canyon--I know, because they came back wet and the only stream is down there. But they always come back...eventually!

Huskies aren't for the faint of heart, trust me. But they're magnificent and I love them dearly. Besides, I always liked animals that challenged me somewhat, especially horses. Nonetheless, even tho' Jim admits they're the funniest and most interesting dogs we've ever had, he adds "AND the most frustrating!" He won't even GO to the Divide with them anymore. Only dog park, beach and with the sulky...and even then, they've gotten in trouble at the dog park, running right across the bike path to the marsh beyond, and up into the dunes on the beach after some dead thing--both places they're not supposed to go. We've only gotten one ticket, thankfully, at one of the beaches we go to where Tashi just WOULDN'T stay out of the lagoon because there was a dead raccoon in there!

And of course, many dogs have their "favorites". Kochak goes absolutely NUTS over three people we hardly know, two at one dog park and one at another. The one at Red Hill dog park also happens to bring Kochak's favorite "boyfriend", but the other two are just "favorites". The Red Hill lady also has a little black pug named Talulah who I adore and who adores me, and I'm pretty popular with a number of dogs (at least half of them because they remember I always bring treats!). It's funny to see how animals get attracted to certain people, and it never seems to change, even if they haven't seen them for a long time.

Ramble, ramble, ramble...


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Tuesday, May 29, 2012 5:43 AM

CAVETROLL


Quote:

Originally posted by Oonjerah:

Humans are Animals who have Choices.

Please show me where a Lion (male) with a full belly goes hunting.
I think he takes a nap.

Good tendencies in an animal are those that help him & his species to survive.
Bad tendencies would be those that are counter to his species' survival.
Evil is a human concept. One most of us learn at an early age. Even without
a basic but light religious education, I'd be able to see evil in people.
But it's not always simple. From one culture to another, what is held to be
evil differs a great deal.

Whose concept of evil do you want to impose on the Lion? Or any animal?


=========================
I am convinced that life is 10% what happens to me and 90% of how I react to it. ~Charles R Swindoll



That male lion that will not hunt on a full belly will also willfully kill cubs. The theory being that if the cub is not his, killing it will bring the female lion into estrus more quickly so he can mate with her and she can produce HIS cubs. Good for the species? Maybe not. Good for the male lion? Yes.

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Tuesday, May 29, 2012 1:19 PM

RIONAEIRE

Beir bua agus beannacht


Sorry I misunderstood Jack, but such things are of interest to me so it was the most interesting thing in your post to me, since I don't find pets interesting at all. I do like wild animals though.

I assume you're my pal until you let me know otherwise.

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya.

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Tuesday, May 29, 2012 5:00 PM

6IXSTRINGJACK


Ahhh... Actual Pet Rabbits....

I should be envious of you then more likely. I have to say that it was AWESOME seeing Mama feed her kids only 18" away from me and that after an hour of scouting she sized me up to be a "threat" so limited that the ROI of completing her instinctual mission eventually won out.

I'm just happy when they don't run away to another yard after work when I'm 5 feet away and enjoying a beer and smoke on my Captain's chair.

I've thought about buying them things like carrots to feed them with and keep them around and safe, but they've got a huge oversized lot here to feed off of and in 2 months time 2 of the Rabbits who lived under my back porch died.... I think they're better off not being semi-domesticated, but maybe you'd think differently?


Haha... you should see my bro's Corgie with my parents bull terrier....

Actually, I should say the reverse, since I always just thought that Axel hated other dogs. He rarely ever barks at people on the street, but if they've got a dog he's barking a storm. He was a rescue dog, and I was quite convinced that he may have very well been in dogfights because of some scarring and his one "bum" leg. The first few times the two dogs were introduced, they were both held on leashes, but now they roam free together. Even though he weighs nearly 10 times what she does, I sometimes worry that she's going to hurt Axel more with her "play" since she's young and inexperienced.

Eventually though, they both tire out and he just lays down and she just snuggles up in "spooning" fashion with him until they get a 2nd breath.



I'm actually quite proud of the big guy since he would be able to snap her neck in two with one bite and shake the dead carcass around. He does that with his toys. Bull Terriers, before "The Orkin Man" and before they were bread as prize dogs after the "Spuds" era, were bread to kill rodents.


Good catch with Cesar on the runaway dog issue. I'm sure you've seen more eps than me, but I've NEVER seen him address that issue.

Maybe that's because in his own mind he'd NEVER let a dog roam free until he KNEW that he was it's Master.

I'd certainly love to see his response to that question.....

I bet he wouldn't have liked my "over-the-shoulder" fix for it

I don't know though.... maybe in an "extreme" position like that he would have approved, given that it got the task done when no other alternatives were available.

I still would never let him wander around the yard leash free like I used to 2 years ago, but at the same time, he's definitely more submissive to me than he is to his live-in owners ever since the incident. He's not a "bad" dog at all except for his behavior when other dogs cross his path. It's a shame that only my step-dad can walk him regularly since he drags my mom all over the place and damn near broke her ankle one time.



Quote:

Originally posted by Niki2:
Sorry Riona, yes, I do that sometimes.

Jack, my rabbits were pets, if you didn't know. Midi in particular LOVED to be stroked, I got lots of "tooth grinding" AND KISSES, which none of the other bunnies gave me. She was my baby, I will always miss her. But even with her, I had to get down on the ground to stroke her--dwarf bunnies aren't that hot on being held. But all of them liked being stroked and gave tooth grinds in their different ways. Mouse was the hardest--as she'd been in the pet shop so long, she'd been picked up by tons of people--it always made me angry to see kids pick them up and the way they handled them (thank goodness Elvis--the pet store owner--finally put up signs). Her personality was probably skittish to begin with, as she was a Dwarf Jack, and that made it worse. So it took a while for her to come to me to get stroked, and even then, she'd scuttle away periodically, especially if I moved or there was a noise, but always come back within a few seconds. Bunnies are GREAT!

So we go back to me envying you; being anywhere close to WILD bunnies, especially a nest of babies, would be a dream come true for me.

They all especially liked it when I covered their head with my palm, or stroked with the palm from nose on...made them feel safe, I think. Bunnies don't often feel safe, being prey for just about everything! ;o) Yes, it's quite possible that's what you were hearing...you said "clicking" and I've never been around baby rabbits, so I didn't make the connection. She could also be expressing happiness at finding her wee ones still there and unhurt, who knows?

Corgies and beagles are the only two "small" dogs I like--oh, and Shiba Inu, ever since Raptor put up the video of them. Too many small dogs have "Napoleon complexes", but those two (dunno about Shibas) are the only ones I've met who actually don't seem to realize they're small...hence no need for trying to make everyone else think they're big and fierce. The corgies and beagles I've known WANT to play with the big dogs, rather than be afraid of them or put up a bold front. I admire that.

Shit, I could go on forever about Cesar. What amuses me most is he gets called in to fix the dog, and virtually always it's the HUMAN who needs the help. Even if he has to "fix" the dog's behavior, he usually does it fairly quickly, then has to teach the humans how to stop doing what they've been doing. Often, it ends up with the humans saying he's changed THEIR lives, too, which always makes me smile.

It's too bad that dog doesn't get walked more. That breed NEEDS regular exercise, and I'd guess part of why he's so unmanageable is he doesn't get enough. I do, however, FULLY sympathize with you about his running away--I DO have huskies, you know. Sometimes even after we've taken them out, Kochak will get a bug up her ass and take off when we let them out of the car at home. She's just playing, like your guy, but the very WORST thing you can do then is chase them. In our case, I just have to wait, or follow her from a distance, just to be sure she doesn't get hit by a car (ours is a quiet neighborhood, thank goodness) until she gets bored of the game and comes. Bitch! But in most cases, the smart thing to do is go the other way, making excited noises and ignoring the dog...they usually run after you. Certainly with huskies, the LAST thing you do is try to chase them...that's the best game of all! Tho' with your guy, he might have heard or smelled the other dog, who knows?

You missed something about Cesar, too. How many times have you seen him have to deal with a runaway dog? Rarely; he takes dogs out on leashes, and the only time they're off leash is at dog parks, almost exclusively. I thought about buying his books or discs, but when I realized that, I wondered if he'd ever chosen to deal with that problem. I DID see him once, in a huge enclosed pasture, deal with the dog not coming, and he did exactly what we do, sound excited and go the other way. But, given that's our biggest problem with the huskies, I figured he didn't have any answers we don't already know. ;o) They always come back, but when I walk them up at the Divide they've kept me waiting for as long as an hour and a half, and once chased a deer all the way to the bottom of a canyon--I know, because they came back wet and the only stream is down there. But they always come back...eventually!

Huskies aren't for the faint of heart, trust me. But they're magnificent and I love them dearly. Besides, I always liked animals that challenged me somewhat, especially horses. Nonetheless, even tho' Jim admits they're the funniest and most interesting dogs we've ever had, he adds "AND the most frustrating!" He won't even GO to the Divide with them anymore. Only dog park, beach and with the sulky...and even then, they've gotten in trouble at the dog park, running right across the bike path to the marsh beyond, and up into the dunes on the beach after some dead thing--both places they're not supposed to go. We've only gotten one ticket, thankfully, at one of the beaches we go to where Tashi just WOULDN'T stay out of the lagoon because there was a dead raccoon in there!

And of course, many dogs have their "favorites". Kochak goes absolutely NUTS over three people we hardly know, two at one dog park and one at another. The one at Red Hill dog park also happens to bring Kochak's favorite "boyfriend", but the other two are just "favorites". The Red Hill lady also has a little black pug named Talulah who I adore and who adores me, and I'm pretty popular with a number of dogs (at least half of them because they remember I always bring treats!). It's funny to see how animals get attracted to certain people, and it never seems to change, even if they haven't seen them for a long time.

Ramble, ramble, ramble...



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Tuesday, May 29, 2012 5:11 PM

6IXSTRINGJACK


Quote:

Originally posted by BYTEMITE:Well... TECHNICALLY the nipple IS erectile tissue. Oxytocin, a pleasure and anxiety reducing hormone, is released via stimulation of the tissue, as in breast feeding, and also during orgasm, child-birth, and so on.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oxytocin

I'm going to go curl up in the brain bleach stockpile now. I'll be in there for a WHILE, there will be some mad guzzling. Those of you who were breastfed may want to take some sort of shower and lament the eldritch horrors of the world.



Thanks for the info, and I assume the same could be attributed to humans, although I must admit any nipple play I've ever done illicited clicking of the mouth.....

Ahhhhhhh...

Brain Bleach.....

Good fun!



Quote:

Originally posted by RionaEire:
Sorry I misunderstood Jack, but such things are of interest to me so it was the most interesting thing in your post to me, since I don't find pets interesting at all. I do like wild animals though.

I assume you're my pal until you let me know otherwise.



No worries, I find that many of my "musings" are much more cryptic than I'd like them to be....


So you like wild animals, huh?

What do you think about a nearly wild human, raised by evil to stay that way.

I know a lot of boys and girls never go to prom because they never asked or were too afraid to ask.... but could you imagine being of age for that and never even knowing what the word Prom meant????

I don't condone or excuse any purely evil acts by animals as well as humans, but.......

What else could I say about that story that doesn't speak 10 times as deeply just being passed along?

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Tuesday, May 29, 2012 5:50 PM

BYTEMITE


I don't understand. People WANT to go to their proms?

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Tuesday, May 29, 2012 9:28 PM

FREMDFIRMA


Quote:

Originally posted by BYTEMITE:
I don't understand. People WANT to go to their proms?


Well, I sorta did - since I technically crashed it, and stag at that.
Of course, I had very different REASONS than most folk, and they weren't even malicious, really.

-F

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Wednesday, May 30, 2012 4:22 AM

BYTEMITE


I had to be dragged to one of mine. They're a travesty of sappy sentimentalism and gender warfare is what they are. I had to wear a goddamn rhodamine dress.

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Wednesday, May 30, 2012 6:23 AM

FREMDFIRMA



I was technically banned from mine - not for anything I did, but for fear of what I MIGHT do, which was really just askin for it, and thus convinced my mom to help me call in a favor and rent a sports car, which she got a biiiiig kick out of, and in fact drove all the way but the last block - and so I showed up stag in a sports car, yeah.
I wasn't intent on causing trouble, and pointed out just how much fuss could come of it over this, kinda put them on the spot and they let it go for once, figuring they'd soon enough be rid of me anyways...

Reason I went - you know them, the outcasts, the geek girls, the really tall chick no guy wants to date, who come to the prom either cause their folks push them into it, to see what the clamor is about, or just as an act of defiance.
Some of these girls were also in the home ec class, so I heard them discussing it and whatnot, and much as I kinda hated everybody at the time, I know damn well how alone one can be even in a crowd, and being able to borrow a sports car and thump a big middle finger at society and the system was a plus.

I can't actually dance mind you, but I can wander around the floor without stepping on her shoes, which was good enough I guess - had one asked me at the time I prolly couldn't have told em why, I doubt I really knew myself.
But I think, in retrospect, it was so that they would not be so alone - the only folk who ever showed me even the least bit of common friggin decency, perhaps my snarky way of repayin the favor.

-F

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Wednesday, May 30, 2012 8:51 AM

BYTEMITE


That sounds like something you'd do.

I do know the type. Never saw anyone do the prom pranks when I was at school, though I know they happen elsewhere, you know, someone gets asked out but the other person stands them up or similar.

Fortunately most of my outcast friends kinda thought prom was a joke too. But I did have one or two friends who cared about all the romantic nonsense, and I couldn't leave them hanging. So yeah, wore a monstrosity, let them have their moments while I ran around the second floor and engaged in some deliberate antisocial behaviour. I had a reputation to keep up, you know? If I had to look like cotton candy vomit, then I had to screw with the authority a little.

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Wednesday, May 30, 2012 1:09 PM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Jack, just for the fun of it, here's a piece of useless trivia for you: Despite all the hooplah about rabbits and carrots, they are NOT bunnies' favorite foods. Believe it or not, BANANAS are! Drop a little chunk of banana near mom once the kiddies are eating solid food, and you'll make their day!

Apples, too, rate above carrots. I don't know how carrots began became known as their "favorite" food, but there's the truth for you. Not that they don't love 'em, along with so many other green things, but bananas send them...bananas (pardon the pun). Maybe because bananas aren't grown much (or at all?) in the states, and rabbits ARE famous for getting into vegetable gardens and making off with carrots, that's how it started. Mine have enjoyed strawberries and even melons--they had a tough life, obviously--but I found out about bananas by my "rabbit vet" (yes, I had a special one just for the bunnies, their medical requirements are pretty specialized), then read up on it.


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Wednesday, May 30, 2012 2:39 PM

6IXSTRINGJACK


Quote:

Originally posted by BYTEMITE:
I had to be dragged to one of mine. They're a travesty of sappy sentimentalism and gender warfare is what they are. I had to wear a goddamn rhodamine dress.



Actually, I quite enjoyed the 2 I went to. After 5 years of being an outcast type up until Jr year when I had gotten into enough fights that nobody messed with me anymore and I was a star on the wrestling team, it was kind of nice to finish off my last two years of HS feeling like a "normal" kid. But that time, the damage had been done though, and I never entirely bought into the whole idea of it.

My senior Prom, we got plaid boxers in our little gift bags with the HS logo on it. I put mine on over my Tux pants, and I'll be damned if at least half of the guys in the room weren't doing it by the end of the night lol.....



I didn't think it was gender warfare. I knew I wasn't going to be in the Prom Court, and neither was my GF, but as cute as that 17 year old Pom Girl was without makeup or her hair all done up, I'd never seen her look as beautiful as she did that night. Pom Girls were so much more down to earth than the cheerleaders.....

We went on a cruise Downtown with a lot of our good friends that night and Great America the next day. This is probably the first time I've really thought about it in years, and I'm surprised at how many moments come back to me.

All in all, the 2 Prom Weekends I did I'd look back and consider 4 of the best days of my life to this point.



Quote:

Originally posted by Niki2:
Jack, just for the fun of it, here's a piece of useless trivia for you: Despite all the hooplah about rabbits and carrots, they are NOT bunnies' favorite foods. Believe it or not, BANANAS are! Drop a little chunk of banana near mom once the kiddies are eating solid food, and you'll make their day!

Apples, too, rate above carrots. I don't know how carrots began became known as their "favorite" food, but there's the truth for you. Not that they don't love 'em, along with so many other green things, but bananas send them...bananas (pardon the pun). Maybe because bananas aren't grown much (or at all?) in the states, and rabbits ARE famous for getting into vegetable gardens and making off with carrots, that's how it started. Mine have enjoyed strawberries and even melons--they had a tough life, obviously--but I found out about bananas by my "rabbit vet" (yes, I had a special one just for the bunnies, their medical requirements are pretty specialized), then read up on it.



Bananna's, huh? good to know. One of the cheapest foods, and one that I ALWAYS buy more than I ever eat.

I'm not too fond of carrots unless they're in a mix, so I'd just be buying them for the rabbits.


I checked out the hole a little bit today. It's amazing how much changes in just a few days. Where they looked like slimy, hairless creatures resembling baby rats in the pics I took on the first day, you can actually see about 1/2" droopy ears on them now and quite a bit of hair growing in. Their tiny feet are still pink and hairless though.

I think they'll be okay.

Mama Rabbit probably doesn't realize it, but even though the weeds have all been pulled around the hole, I still thing she picked the best spot for her babies. Of my nearly 1/2 Acre yard, her babies are sitting in the middle of the only 800 sq foot part of my yard getting watered 1/2 hour every day. On a day like today when it was only 70 degrees, that probably doesn't matter much, but I'm sure they appreciated the moisture on Saturday when it was almost 100 degrees.


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Wednesday, May 30, 2012 6:31 PM

OONJERAH



Another great bunny treat:

Any fruit trees nearby? Prune a few of the more useless twigs.
Rabbits love the bark.

Bananas is new to me.



=========================
I am convinced that life is 10% what happens to me and 90% of how I react to it. ~Charles R Swindoll

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Saturday, June 2, 2012 5:13 PM

6IXSTRINGJACK


My Bunnie hole has been vacant for 2 days now.... :(

There was a lot of rain and I though Mama might have just moved them temporarily, but maybe they were grown enough not to need it. I'm just surprised they left so quickly.

There was no evidence of a struggle or bloodshed... it's just completely abandoned. I'd just feel better if I saw Mama with her thumpers bouncing around the yard at some point.

I'm going to wait 3 more days before filling in the hole. Maybe they were just done with it......?

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Saturday, June 2, 2012 10:11 PM

BYTEMITE


:(

Maybe they moved underneath your house?

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Sunday, June 3, 2012 5:16 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Ooo, Onj, I forgot about that, and you're absolutely right. Bunnies ADORE to chew on branches of fruit trees, in fact they sell them in some pet stores just for that--packaged, of course, and thus pretty useless; fresh ones are bunny heaven. Good for their teeth, too.

I hope your little litter is okay and that she just moved them 'cuz of the rain. Keep a lookout for them and let us know, 'kay?


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