REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

New material on Martin/Zimmerman case

POSTED BY: NIKI2
UPDATED: Friday, May 31, 2013 03:29
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Saturday, May 19, 2012 5:36 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Figured with the new evidence, a new thread might be useful. Among the other things in the 183-page material "leaked" recently, and aside from the trace THC found in Martin's blood and the evidence of injuries to Zimmerman, I found a couple of things interesting:
Quote:

• There are so far no witnesses to the beginning of the confrontation.

Police canvassed the neighborhood to find people who could tell them what they saw, and every eyewitness told police they saw Martin and Zimmerman fighting but that they didn’t know how it started. It was unclear to many exactly what was happening because it was dark and raining. All of them heard a “pop,” indicating a gunshot. All of them heard cries for help, but few agree on whether they were from Martin or Zimmerman. An investigator stated that he determined it was Zimmerman’s voice.

• One witness said the fight had ended by the time the shot rang out.

A woman that police interviewed said she could not distinguish who was on top of whom, but after the gunshot one person was holding the other on the ground by pressing on his back. But her friend, who assisted in translating for the eyewitness, was “adamant” that there was no physical fighting taking place when the shot rang out. Both were taken to the police department for more questioning.

• Trayvon Martin may have been running from Zimmerman at first.

The Seminole County Sheriff’s Department’s Computer Aided Dispatch shows that Zimmerman called police to report a suspicious person, then told them the subject was running from him. The exchange between the dispatcher and Zimmerman shows that he was advised not to continue to follow Martin. One witness interviewed said she saw one of the subjects chasing the other, but could not see who was who. A recording of a female identified as Martin’s longtime friend who was on the phone with him just before the shooting said he began to run when he realized Zimmerman was following him.

• The lead investigator felt that there was enough evidence, based on what he saw, to charge Zimmerman.

Although much of his statement is redacted, Sanford PD investigator Chris Serino questioned witnesses over the course of weeks, listened to audio of 911 calls and analyzed information from the general practitioner Zimmerman went to the day after the shooting. He felt that based on his investigation, whose details he forwarded to Brevard/Seminole Country State Attorney Norm Wolfinger, there was enough to charge Zimmerman with manslaughter. According to the police capias request, or request for charges to be filed, another official felt that Zimmerman could have avoided any trouble if he had either stayed in his vehicle or at least identified himself to Martin.

“The encounter between George Zimmerman and Trayvon Martin was ultimately avoidable by Zimmerman, if Zimmerman had remained in his vehicle and awaited the arrival of law enforcement or conversely if he had identified himself to Martin as a concerned citizen and initiated dialogue to dispel each party’s concern,” the report said. “There is no indication that Trayvon Martin was involved in any criminal activity at the time of the encounter.” http://newsfeed.time.com/2012/05/18/new-trayvon-martin-evidence-10-thi
ngs-you-should-know/

Leaving aside the claims that Zimmerman had previously shown racist tendencies, because there are equally questionable remarks from Martin's Facebook page that make him look like a gangsta wannabe; I don't think either one applies to what happened that night.

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Saturday, May 19, 2012 5:52 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Zimmerman started the ball rolling by armed pursuit of an innocent person. Whatever law prohibits vigilantism should be the one invoked.

After that, what happened in those moments of physical struggle, I'm apt to come down against Zimmerman. All of the arguments used to justify why (white) people shoot intruders ... I was afraid for my life, I didn't know what that person was going to do, I thought the person was armed... apply to Trayvon. It's the whole issue of goose sauce= gander sauce.

WULF- Just for you: The best test of an argument's strength is to put an argument you AGREE with in the mouth of someone you hate or are afraid of, and see if it still holds true If you have to invoke a different set of morals for a different set of people, your morals aren't very moral.

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Saturday, May 19, 2012 5:55 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Quote:

Whatever law prohibits vigilantism


Hello,

Is there such a law?

--Anthony



Note to Self:
Raptor - women who want to control their reproductive processes are sluts.
Wulf - Niki is a stupid fucking bitch who should hurry up and die.
Never forget what these men are.
“The stupid neither forgive nor forget; the naive forgive and forget; the wise forgive but do not forget.” -Thomas Szasz

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Saturday, May 19, 2012 5:59 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

Is there such a law?
There often are in the South, due to it's rather colorful history of lynching. I don't know Florida law, though. The prosecutors should scour the books.

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Saturday, May 19, 2012 6:04 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Hello,

I'd be interested in the wording of such a law, as it seems it might be a hard one to write.

In any event, I hope the facts of this case become available in the fullness of time. At the moment, I still see one man pursuing and antagonizing another man for no reason, and the pursued man dying at the conclusion of the affair.

Which is enough reason to be glad of a trial and a deep examination of the facts.

--Anthony





Note to Self:
Raptor - women who want to control their reproductive processes are sluts.
Wulf - Niki is a stupid fucking bitch who should hurry up and die.
Never forget what these men are.
“The stupid neither forgive nor forget; the naive forgive and forget; the wise forgive but do not forget.” -Thomas Szasz

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Saturday, May 19, 2012 6:09 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


I'm going to repost this here in hopes that Wulf will read it.

----------------------
WULF-

Take a deep breath.

Now, Imagine you are facing a young black man. The guy is embittered. He has a chip on his shoulder bigger than Mt Everest. He has a gun. And he hates you. Not specifically, but generically. Your skin color, gender and age tell him everything he needs to know about you. In fact, he dismisses pretty much everybody that isn't like him- they're either the enemy, or they're useless bits of fluff. He knows how violent the real world is; and he knows that the only answer to that violence is violent self-protection.

Take a deep breath.

Now, change his skin color to white.

You're looking at yourself.

You have become everything you profess to hate.

Dude, look in the mirror once in a while. REALLY look in the mirror.

Now take a deep breath.

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Sunday, May 20, 2012 3:43 AM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up


Oh, boy.

More evidence for folks to go through, pick out the bits they like, ignore the bits they don't like, and then get more deeply entrenched in the positions they formed when all they knew was "White guy shoots black kid."

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Sunday, May 20, 2012 7:37 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

and then get more deeply entrenched in the positions they formed when all they knew was "White guy shoots black kid."
And to the point where all they knew was "Neighborhood watch 'captain' shoots a black perp". I like the way you present this in such a balanced fashion, geezer.

Idiot.

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Sunday, May 20, 2012 9:13 AM

OONJERAH



Thot 1. Does anyone here think Trayvon Martin deserved to die that night, that way?

Thot 2. What a dumb question! Of course they do!

Thot 3. Now that TM is dead, now that Geo Zimmerman is no longer the volunteer watch
captain, do the folks of that community feel safer or less safe?

Thot 4. Can any of the pro-Zimmerman folks admit that George was/is a loose cannon?

Thot 4 could be the crux of the matter for me. I believe the pro-Zimmerman folks are
mostly conservatives, mostly see themselves as responsible adults. What I do Not
understand is how they can see George as a responsible adult.

Thot 5 I've asked before: How many want George Zimmerman to guard their community?
And no one replied affirmatively as I recall.

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Sunday, May 20, 2012 10:47 AM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up


Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:
Quote:

and then get more deeply entrenched in the positions they formed when all they knew was "White guy shoots black kid."
And to the point where all they knew was "Neighborhood watch 'captain' shoots a black perp". I like the way you present this in such a balanced fashion, geezer.

Idiot.



New signature line, Siggy?

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Sunday, May 20, 2012 12:14 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


GEEZER: When you can't address the point, you attack the person? Crassic.

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Sunday, May 20, 2012 12:56 PM

PIRATENEWS

John Lee, conspiracy therapist at Hollywood award-winner History Channel-mocked SNL-spoofed PirateNew.org wooHOO!!!!!!


Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:

After that, what happened in those moments of physical struggle, I'm apt to come down against Zimmerman. All of the arguments used to justify why (white) people shoot intruders



He's not white, he's a spic.

Spics hate black people. Everybody knows that.

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Monday, May 21, 2012 1:59 AM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up


Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:
GEEZER: When you can't address the point, you attack the person?



You mean like calling someone an idiot because you don't agree with them? No. That'd be you.

SignyM, you have no idea what happened just prior to Martin getting killed. Neither does anyone else. The eyewitness reports are contradictory. The evidence can be interpreted in many ways. A lot of the articles folks post from here are biased, and then they pick out only the stuff they agree with to post. This doesn't stop folks on both sides of the issue from jumping to conclusions based on their own preconceptions about white people, black people, hispanic people, interactions between the races/ethnicities, gun owners, neighborhood watches, self-defense, hoodies, skittles, and the state of America in general.

You don't know what happened. Neither do I. Neither does Wulf. Neither does Niki.

Not knowing what happened, I find it premature to form a deeply-held opinion on the matter.

Not knowing what happened doesn't seem to limit others from forming such opinions, or from criticizing others - not because they have the opposite opinion, but because they won't jump on a particular bandwagon.


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Monday, May 21, 2012 4:52 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Oonj, interesting questions:

Of course nobody HERE (with the possible exception of PN...and maybe Wulf) thinks Martin should have died. I see it as an unfortunate strong of events that led to a tragic ending--actually, for both parties as it's turned out--tho' obviously more tragic for one person and those who love him.

In OTHER places...unfortunately many of them...yes, you're right, there are many people who DO believe he deserved what he got. Martin that is.

As to whether they feel safer or less safe, I would posit that those who are African-American, and those with darke skin for whatever reason (if they've read Zimmerman's words about Mexicans, I would imagine them too) feel less safe. As to the others, I can't say.

There WERE others in his community who didn't feel that safe even before this, and some who felt he was somewhat of a loose cannon, they've said so.

Obviously I'm not a pro-Zimmerman responder, but I believe at least one of them has agreed to that, tho' they still think Zimmerman was right...I can't remember who, this discussion has gone on so long, but I think I read that. Possibly more than once. That goes for seeing Zimmerman as a "responsible adult", too.

Obviously I don't want anyone like Zimmerman guarding my community. Whatever his feelings about ethnicity are, I see him as a cop wannabe who thought he had carte blanche to do whatever he thought was necessary to "guard" his community. I certainly don't see him as evil, just a bit unclear on the concept.

Would be interested in others' answers to your questions.

I also agree with:
Quote:

You don't know what happened. Neither do I. Neither does Wulf. Neither does Niki.

Not knowing what happened, I find it premature to form a deeply-held opinion on the matter.

Not knowing what happened doesn't seem to limit others from forming such opinions, or from criticizing others - not because they have the opposite opinion, but because they won't jump on a particular bandwagon.

I think the "criticizing others" is mostly what this forum is about, and people would do so no matter what; the fact is that yes, most (if not all) the conservatives here are pro-Zimmerman, while the others are either pro-Martin, anti-Zimmerman, or neutral.


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Monday, May 21, 2012 4:56 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

You mean like calling someone an idiot because you don't agree with them?
No, I didn't call you an idiot because you "disagree" with me. I called you an idiot because you popped out with a totally biased statement accusing OTHERS of bias.

Really?

Usually you're smarter than that, so apparently your bias is completely unconscious. Don't feel bad- most people's bias is. That's why they can believe they're not racist, or sexist or (fill-in-the-blank)-ist even when they are.

So here's the same procedure I gave WULF, crafted just for you.

Imagine there is an armed black man- let's call him Tom- patrolling his mostly black neighborhood and he sees a white teen walking by at night. Imagine this neighborhood has a lot of problems with white harassment, and just the last week three tatooed white youths were arrested for harassing a woman who was just walking home from work. Neighbors are jumpy and afraid, so they decide to have Tom patrol the neighborhood because he's had security experience. Imagine that Tom decides to follow the white kid, despite police reassurance that such action is not necessary. Imagine that, in the end, the white youth is shot dead. And this kid was just visiting a friend.

-------------

BTW- You might have noticed that many people including myself have said many times over that nobody knows what happened in those moments. But the problem is- once you scare somebody, they are not reacting rationally. That is why so many intruders are shot in the back, or shot unarmed, or shot outside of the home. Zimmerman set up a situation where he got the other guy's adrenaline pumping, and we are mostly not so rational or so cold-blooded or so experienced with confrontation that in the one moment where we COULD turn away, we actually do so. Zimmerman set up the situation, and whether legally or not he is morally responsible for killing Trayvon because he started the ball rolling.

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Monday, May 21, 2012 5:33 AM

STORYMARK


Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:
GEEZER: When you can't address the point, you attack the person? Crassic.



It's Geezer. It's that, or flee from the thread entirely.

"Goram it kid, let's frak this thing and go home! Engage!"

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Monday, May 21, 2012 7:35 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Quote:

the problem is- once you scare somebody, they are not reacting rationally. That is why so many intruders are shot in the back, or shot unarmed, or shot outside of the home. Zimmerman set up a situation where he got the other guy's adrenaline pumping, and we are mostly not so rational or so cold-blooded or so experienced with confrontation that in the one moment where we COULD turn away, we actually do so. Zimmerman set up the situation, and whether legally or not he is morally responsible for killing Trayvon because he started the ball rolling.


Hello,

I agree with this assessment, but I can't fault Geezer for waiting to form his opinion until all the facts are known.

--Anthony



Note to Self:
Raptor - women who want to control their reproductive processes are sluts.
Wulf - Niki is a stupid fucking bitch who should hurry up and die.
Never forget what these men are.
“The stupid neither forgive nor forget; the naive forgive and forget; the wise forgive but do not forget.” -Thomas Szasz

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Monday, May 21, 2012 9:55 AM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up


Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:
So here's the same procedure I gave WULF, crafted just for you.

Imagine there is an armed black man- let's call him Tom- patrolling his mostly black neighborhood and he sees a white teen walking by at night. Imagine this neighborhood has a lot of problems with white harassment, and just the last week three tatooed white youths were arrested for harassing a woman who was just walking home from work. Neighbors are jumpy and afraid, so they decide to have Tom patrol the neighborhood because he's had security experience. Imagine that Tom decides to follow the white kid, despite police reassurance that such action is not necessary. Imagine that, in the end, the white youth is shot dead. And this kid was just visiting a friend.




I imagine I'd be of pretty much the same mind I am about the Zimmerman case. There are not enough facts in your imaginary tale to reach a conclusion.

I could imagine that Tom followed the white kid, confronted him, got in an argument that escalated to violence, and shot the white kid.

I could imagine that Tom thought better of following the kid and had started back to his car when the white kid attacked him, and was beating his head on the concrete when he fired in what he considered self-defense.

I could imagine that space aliens came down and roughed up Tom and killed the white kid for whatever nefarious ends space aliens might have.

I could imagine that you and Niki flew in from California and beat Tom and killed the white kid so you'd have something to post on RWED about.

You seem to imagine that my hesitancy to decide the imaginary Tom's, or the real Zimmerman's, innocence or guilt has something to do with which race shot and which race was shot.

Nope.

Just don't have enough data to make an informed decision.

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Monday, May 21, 2012 10:34 AM

OONJERAH



The moment of confrontation between Zimmerman and Martin is known, I believe.
Martin was talking on the phone to his GF. She overheard him say, "Why are you
following me?" and GZ's reply, "What are you doing here?"

I thought that was one of the facts we knew and it must show up in the 185 pages
of leaked reports.

Can someone please confirm or deny that this is a fact?

If Martin first ran, distancing himself from George, or if George, at one point,
did head back toward his car, I don't know ... But we still have their moment of
contact on record.

Yes? Or were those words heard only by the GF and unrecorded?



. . . . .The worst and most frequent consequence of paranoia is that it's self-fulfilling.


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Monday, May 21, 2012 10:39 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


TONY
Quote:

but I can't fault Geezer for waiting to form his opinion until all the facts are known.
I perceive that Geezer has ALREADY formed an opinion, simply by the way he stated the problem. Who is Geezer lining up with and who is he lining up against when he said
Quote:

and then get more deeply entrenched in the positions they formed when all they knew was "White guy shoots black kid."
??

He's already taken sides. Protestations of neutrality after-the-fact don't undo his preliminary bias.

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Monday, May 21, 2012 11:34 AM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up


Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:
I perceive that Geezer has ALREADY formed an opinion, simply by the way he stated the problem. Who is Geezer lining up with and who is he lining up against when he said
Quote:

and then get more deeply entrenched in the positions they formed when all they knew was "White guy shoots black kid."
??

He's already taken sides. Protestations of neutrality after-the-fact don't undo his preliminary bias.



Your perception is incorrect. When I mention "they", I'm referring to everyone who has already formed any deeply entrenched opinion of innocence or guilt.

If you perceive that "White guy shoots black kid" is some sort of code that I have an opinion of innocence or guilt based on race, you are once again mistaken, and might want to examine why you would think such a thing.

Once again, I do not consider that I have enough facts to form a conclusion about this case. I doubt anyone has enough facts to form an objective conclusion.

I feel sympathy for the jurors who may have to wade through the mass of evidence to reach such a conclusion.

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Tuesday, May 22, 2012 3:53 AM

HERO


Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:
After that, what happened in those moments of physical struggle, I'm apt to come down against Zimmerman. All of the arguments used to justify why (white) people shoot intruders ... I was afraid for my life, I didn't know what that person was going to do, I thought the person was armed... apply to Trayvon. It's the whole issue of goose sauce= gander sauce.


Somebody just tripped over reasonable doubt. Same argument could apply to both parties. No witnesses to how it started.

But Zimmerman was badly beaten by Martin? Yes, and like I tell folks a lot who want an assault charge...just because you got your ass kicked does not mean you are the victim.

But Zimmerman could have stayed in the car? Sure, and Martin could have chosen a different path home. There is no evidence Martin was committing any sort of crime by walking in the neighbor hood...but like you said, it goes both ways, Zimmerman had every right to be out walking too. Zimmerman can follow Martin, which we know happened. Martin can follow Zimmerman, which may have happened later. The two can talk and argue, again not illegal on either part.

This whole thing comes down to who started it. Could be either one and if all things are equal...reasonable doubt and not guilty.

Here is the one thing I've not seen that I'd want to see as a juror. We need a map of the neighborhood with lines showing the path of Martin and Zimmerman. Where was Zimmerman when the call was made, what direction where he and Martin heading in? Then show that in relation to where the shooting happened. The State says Martin took off running away from Zimmerman. Does the map and timeline support Zimmerman's story that Martin confronted him as he was headed back to his car?

I think a walk of the crime scene and a good timeline and map projection would be useful. Does it support the idea that somehow Zimmerman chased Martin down (unlikey since Martin was a skinny black kid who looked like he could run pretty damn fast and Zimmerman...didn't have the look of a runner) or did Martin at some point turn on him and face down his pursuer or perhaps double back on him and confront him?

H

Hero...must be right on all of this. ALL of the rest of us are wrong. Chrisisall, 2012

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Tuesday, May 22, 2012 7:29 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Oonj, the telephone conversation was quoted by the girlfriend, as such it's hearsay; that there WAS a telephone conversation at that exact moment is proven by verifiable fact. It's a matter of whether one decides what she said was true or if one believes she made up what was said because Martin was her boyfriend. I believe she went to hospital because of what happened, but I haven't heard any more about that for a while.

I don't believe it can be used at trial because it's hearsay, can it? The fact of the phone call seems to me could be used, but I'm not sure about her testimony as to what was said...

Those of us who give credence to her testimony see it as verifying that Zimmerman accosted Martin, but what happened AFTER that, nobody can know or ever will, except Zimmerman.


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Tuesday, May 22, 2012 11:30 AM

OONJERAH




I think the Girlfriend will be called to testify, and many, like me, will believe her, as
long as she is consistent. What she heard Trayvon and George say to each other is
easily believeable.

GZ crowded TM.
TM confronted GZ.
GZ responded with a tough line.

Back when we knew almost nothing about the case, Frem described the actions of GZ in
this situation. He said that George would have to play the hard ass, escalate instead of
defuse the situation. Frem has met more than his share of GZs.

He could have kept some distance. He could have said, "How do you do? I'm George. I live
here." But he was living in fantasyland: the sheriff in a western movie. His ego wanted and
demanded a fight. Trayvon's a kid; he took the bait, walked into the trap.

I've never met George. The news reported that he had a history of following people over
trivial matters. The Gf heard him say, "What are you doing here?" So, yes, I choose to
believe those two things that are, ATM, hearsay. I believe he chose to kill a teenager
over ego, shame & anger.

I do not know if the 185 pages of leaked evidence answers this: Which of them was beg-
ging for his life? Has the Voice been identified? If it was George, I'll believe that Trayvon
was sitting on him, beating him, and that he did shoot in self-defence. If it was Trayvon,
I'll think it was murder.

Here's what I know for sure about being human. If I am a nut case, it's on me to know it,
to call it. On days when my nuttiness is high, it's on me to deal with it, talk to someone
if I need to. But do not take my nuttiness on the road and attack others.
I have known more nuts than sane people. I know that the majority choose denial and keep
taking their nuttiness on the road. Even if one is honest, recovery still isn't quick or easy.

No matter what the law does to George Zimmerman, he is not now and never will get away
with killing Trayvon Martin.



. . . . .The worst and most frequent consequence of paranoia is that it's self-fulfilling.


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Tuesday, May 22, 2012 11:40 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


That's pretty much how I see it, Oonj, in some ways. I think Trayvon might well have hit him, etc., but given Zimmerman accosted him (in my opinion and yes, I believe the girlfriend, especially as the phone call was verified and her story HAS been consistent, which Zimmerman's has not), I put it on Zimmerman.

I actually don't think Zimmerman was doing the "western" thing, I think he'd always been treated as the authority figure when he accosted people and expected the same...cop wannabe, as it were. If he got in a tussle with Martin, who, from the injuries, got the better of him, I could see it that he either figured he was entitled to shoot 'cuz Martin had attacked him or reacted out of adrenalyn (sp?), I don't see it as ego or anger, myownself. Having seen him on the stand and given what background info we know, I kinda think he's simpler than that. Nonetheless, the stand-your-ground law doesn't work for me; if anyone had the right to stand their ground it was Martin, who was bothering nobody, and it was Zimmerman with the gun.

The voice hasn't been identified as yet; last I heard they were still working on it. It may never be solved.

We can guess from now until the cows come home, bottom line is we'll never know--unless Zimmerman gets off, then writes a book (!). Personally, I don't want to see him convicted of murder, but some lesser charge with a light prison sentence. He made a mistake, he shouldn't have to have HIS life ruined because of it too. JMHO. I just hope it serves as a lesson for others...and I could WISH for the stand-your-ground law to be overturned. Hey, I can wish...

ETA I agree with this:
Quote:

Here is the one thing I've not seen that I'd want to see as a juror. We need a map of the neighborhood with lines showing the path of Martin and Zimmerman. Where was Zimmerman when the call was made, what direction where he and Martin heading in? Then show that in relation to where the shooting happened. The State says Martin took off running away from Zimmerman. Does the map and timeline support Zimmerman's story that Martin confronted him as he was headed back to his car?
and this
Quote:

the problem is- once you scare somebody, they are not reacting rationally. That is why so many intruders are shot in the back, or shot unarmed, or shot outside of the home. Zimmerman set up a situation where he got the other guy's adrenaline pumping, and we are mostly not so rational or so cold-blooded or so experienced with confrontation that in the one moment where we COULD turn away, we actually do so. Zimmerman set up the situation, and whether legally or not he is morally responsible for killing Trayvon because he started the ball rolling.



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Tuesday, May 22, 2012 12:05 PM

HERO


Quote:

Originally posted by Niki2:
j, the telephone conversation was quoted by the girlfriend, as such it's hearsay; that there WAS a telephone conversation at that exact moment is proven by verifiable fact. It's a matter of whether one decides what she said was true or if one believes she made up what was said because Martin was her boyfriend. I believe she went to hospital because of what happened, but I haven't heard any more about that for a while.

I don't believe it can be used at trial because it's hearsay, can it? The fact of the phone call seems to me could be used, but I'm not sure about her testimony as to what was said...


There are exceptions to the hearsay rule that might fit, could go either way.

For example, it could be an excited utterance or a present sense impression.

She can also testify about demeanor and if he was out of breath.

H

Hero...must be right on all of this. ALL of the rest of us are wrong. Chrisisall, 2012

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Tuesday, May 22, 2012 12:08 PM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


I hope so; I think that it's important in that it shows Zimmerman accosting Martin, which is an important point.


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Tuesday, May 22, 2012 12:11 PM

HERO


The voice calling for help was identified as Martin by his mother and Zimmerman by his father. The police chose to believe it was Martin and failed to disclose that that Zimmerman's father's statement in the charging document. It's one of several deliberate ommissions and mistatements that will likely get the case overturned on appeal should Zimmerman be convicted.

H

Hero...must be right on all of this. ALL of the rest of us are wrong. Chrisisall, 2012

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Tuesday, May 22, 2012 12:18 PM

HERO


Quote:

Originally posted by Niki2:
I hope so; I think that it's important in that it shows Zimmerman accosting Martin, which is an important point.



Your talking about an unconfirmed statement by a biased witness. It's value is marginal at best.

Also it conflicts with other evidence on key points, such as Martin assaulting Zimmerman. Time will tell, but let's hope she's never told a lie in her past because her history, her bias, and every little inconstancy in her story will be closely examined.

H

Hero...must be right on all of this. ALL of the rest of us are wrong. Chrisisall, 2012

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Tuesday, May 22, 2012 12:24 PM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


The police chose to believe it was Martin
Quote:

The police chose to believe it was Martin
Well, that goes against the cop who told the upset woman that "the guy who was screaming is okay". I'd like to see a cite to where the police "chose to believe" the voice was Martin's. I haven't seen anything like that.

The girlfriend's testimony isn't the slightest bit conflicting with what we KNOW (not what some assume). If that is how it started, it doesn't conflict at all with the concept that, after that exchange, Martin hit Zimmerman...or vice versa. It merely shows two aggressive statements, one by each: "Why are you following me?", "What are you doing here?"--either of which could have been the precursor to a physical response from the one being questioned.

ETA: Just noticed something amusing. You DO realize your "signature" has no meaning, don't you? The elipses means something is missing--that something could be anything, such as "Hero (is an ignorant fool who thinks he) must be right on all of this"...etc.


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Tuesday, May 22, 2012 1:32 PM

OONJERAH



I haven't heard the begging for his life tape; it'd be too painful to hear.

Trayvon's pounding George much longer than necessary. Zim's begging for him
to stop?
-OR-
George finally managed to pull the gun and point it. Trayvon stops beating
and starts begging.

If a person is begging while taking blows to the head, it sounds waay different
from someone staring down a barrel but not taking blows. Which sound was it?

Of course, there are other possibilities.
Trayvon stopped beating George and stood up. Then George pulled the gun?

Did George tell investigators that it was his voice on the 911 tape?

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Tuesday, May 22, 2012 2:58 PM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up


Quote:

Originally posted by Niki2:
I hope so; I think that it's important in that it shows Zimmerman accosting Martin, which is an important point.



So you're hoping that evidence supports your conclusion that Zimmerman is guilty?

Glad you have no bias.

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Wednesday, May 23, 2012 9:52 AM

HERO


Quote:

Originally posted by Oonjerah:
Of course, there are other possibilities.


Hmmm...other possibility?

Now that you mention it...
Oh yes, oh yes, oh yes, they both
Oh yes, they both
Oh yes, they both reached
- Oh, yeah
For the gun, the gun, the gun, the gun
Oh yes. They both reached
For the gun
Oh yes, oh yes, oh yes, they both
Oh yes, they both
Oh yes, they both reached for
The gun, the gun, the gun,the gun
Oh yes, they both reached for the gun.
Oh yes, oh yes, oh yes, they both
Oh yes, they both
Oh yes, they both reached for
The gun, the gun, the gun,the gun

H

Hero...must be right on all of this. ALL of the rest of us are wrong. Chrisisall, 2012

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Wednesday, May 23, 2012 11:11 AM

STORYMARK


Quote:

Originally posted by Geezer:
Quote:

Originally posted by Niki2:
I hope so; I think that it's important in that it shows Zimmerman accosting Martin, which is an important point.



So you're hoping that evidence supports your conclusion that Zimmerman is guilty?

Glad you have no bias.



I think you just showed more bias than anyone by deliberately misinterpreting her words.

Run away, old man, it's what you do best.


"Goram it kid, let's frak this thing and go home! Engage!"

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Wednesday, May 23, 2012 11:27 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


As to the voice, Oonj, Zimmerman claims it was him. Martin's parents claim it was him. When you hear it, it's very high pitched and frenetic. The problem is that the experts who've listened to it say fear can raise a voice level, and they have nothing from Martin to compare it to...at least that's the last I heard. As of May 4,
Quote:

Identifying the voice of the person screaming, although not conclusive, would certainly be compelling evidence that the outcry was made by the victim of the physical encounter rather than by the aggressor. The recording, in other words, could be used by the prosecution to disprove Zimmerman's claim that he shot Martin in self-defense, or by Zimmerman to prove he was being beaten by Martin when he shot him. So, to prove it was Martin's voice, the prosecution likely will rely on family members and friends of Trayvon Martin. The prosecution may also try to rely on forensic experts to give their opinion that it was Martin's voice. Zimmerman, by contrast, will claim it is his voice, and he also will rely on his family and friends, and maybe experts as well. And a jury, if the case ever goes to trial, will have to decide this important factual issue.
It's been going back and forth since March, and as far as I know, nobody's come up with a conclusive decision either way.


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Wednesday, May 23, 2012 11:36 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Oh my goodness...did I say somewhere I was unbiased and forget? Gosh, that's awful, I'm so sorry. I guess I "misspoke". I do remember writing "Obviously I'm not a pro-Zimmerman responder", but I guess you could take that to mean I'm not pro- either of them. Maybe I should just let you guys write my responses for me, obviously you know better than I what I'm thinking. (/sarcasm)

Never said I was unbiased, sir. I've always found Zimmerman to be more at fault, I'm just not making up my mind until as many of the facts are in as is possible. Aw, shit, you don't care about that, do you! You knew full well I wasn't totally unbiased, you just needed an excuse to have a go at me. Again, sorry about that, let me get out of your way so you can have your fun...



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Wednesday, May 23, 2012 1:22 PM

OONJERAH


Quote Niki: "As to the voice, Oonj, Zimmerman claims it was him. Martin's parents
claim it was him."

Prosecution and all their friends have said, "Mr. Martin, Mrs. Fulton, do you have
a recording of Trayvon's voice anywhere?" I guess.

If they could find one, I believe expert voice analysis would show who it was.
Except probably not, because it's all distorted by distance and phone line.
Such evidence woulda been pretty compelling.
If it were proved to be Trayvon ... Could George be lying again? [Oonj is biased.]



. . .I am convinced that life is 10% what happens to me and 90% of how I react to it. ~Charles R Swindoll

If I have to react to others all the time, then they own my mind more than I do.
If I let others tell me how to feel, I lose my ability to choose happiness.
If I let others tell me who I am, I've vacated self-definition.
Finally, I realized how foolish I was to give others such power over me.

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Wednesday, May 23, 2012 1:43 PM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up


Quote:

Originally posted by Storymark:
Quote:

Originally posted by Geezer:
Quote:

Originally posted by Niki2:
I hope so; I think that it's important in that it shows Zimmerman accosting Martin, which is an important point.



So you're hoping that evidence supports your conclusion that Zimmerman is guilty?

Glad you have no bias.



I think you just showed more bias than anyone by deliberately misinterpreting her words.



So how do you "correctly" interpret her words?

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Wednesday, May 23, 2012 6:21 PM

FREMDFIRMA



Consider how long ago I called how it probably went down.
Consider well the mounting evidence that it very likely did.

No, I don't KNOW - but goddamn it, I've seen enough wackjobs like Zimmerman to have a pretty fucking good idea.
And I've seen enough young men like Travon in my time too - in fact I am about to hire one on a provisional basis cause he has the potential to be a good guard despite youth and a certain amount of young male stupidity, potential mind you, which can go either way... he gets outta line, I fire his ass, simple.

If Zimmerman had been workin for me, the INSTANT he left that car, he was gone - if you feel the bloody need to call in the cavalry(1) then you hang back and keep the target in visual range WITHOUT approaching, and update the incoming badge bearers as necessary, when you pass the buck, you PASS it, no changing your mind on that one once you commit.

(1) Fer cryin out loud, just BEING THERE is not a threat, never will be, never was, and as long as you're friggin WATCHING THEM, they're zero threat at all till they out and out DO something which requires a response, the only thing which'd cause me or mine to close and confront would be beginning a blatant B&E, auto theft or physically attacking someone, and the latter is (and I feel must be) on the conscience and decision of the individual guard to determine whether that would help the situation or add one more victim to it - for mine own, I'd throw down, cause of who I am, but it's also worth remembering I don't carry anything but a blitz-baton cause I want em alive, not just to avoid a mess like this, but also for the coup-count... I'd MUCH rather have a live, neutralized, scared-shitless perp spreading the tale than a dead one hanging round my conscience, such as it is.

-Frem

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Wednesday, May 23, 2012 7:15 PM

RIONAEIRE

Beir bua agus beannacht


There are only two people who know what happened, unfortunately one of them is dead. The court will decide what to do next. I think Zimmerman probably overreacted, but again we don't know all the facts and unfortunately I doubt we ever will.

I assume you're my pal until you let me know otherwise.

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya.

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Wednesday, May 23, 2012 7:24 PM

1KIKI

Today, scientists sound the alarm on other environmental dangers. Vested interests still hire their own scientists to confuse the issue. But in the end, nature will not be fooled. Neil deGrasse Tyson


"No witnesses to how it started."

Yes, there were. It started when Zimmerman stalked Martin. 'My attitude is: don't start nothing, won't BE nothing!'


"Zimmerman can follow Martin ..."

Sounds like 'intent' to me.

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Wednesday, May 23, 2012 7:34 PM

1KIKI

Today, scientists sound the alarm on other environmental dangers. Vested interests still hire their own scientists to confuse the issue. But in the end, nature will not be fooled. Neil deGrasse Tyson


"... and they have nothing from Martin to compare it to ..."

You mean ALL THOSE POSTS by that GANGSTER-WANNA-BE can't be used? Makes me wonder why not.

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Thursday, May 24, 2012 5:28 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


My statement, Geezer, as intended to indicate that, given all the contradictory evidence one way and the other, something like that would clarify at least ONE point, who started it, that Zimmerman had followed Martin long enough to actually confront him, and that it would put the lie to Zimmerman's having said he went back to his car after being unable to find Martin. It would be nice if SOMETHING at least relatively concrete existed which would help clarify the situation, instead of just muddying it further. Even the voice evidence would be relatively useless, in my opinion, as there are "experts" on either side and nobody can tell for sure who it was. The evidence of a fight didn't help much either, as we don't know who started it or why. If there was actual testimony that showed Zimmerman accosted Martin, it would give a bit of a clearer picture.

I've never said I was unbiased, and you know that; like I sid, you just wanted to snark. I've voiced all my questions about Zimmerman's contradictory statements, but since there's only Zimmerman's testimony (thus far) to show what happened, it's still muddy as hell and open to either side's interpretations. I only bother with this because you asked how one would "interpret" my statement and I wanted to make it clear--TO OTHERS, since I already know your motivations and intent.


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Thursday, May 24, 2012 3:38 PM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up


Quote:

Originally posted by Niki2:
My statement, Geezer, as intended to indicate that, given all the contradictory evidence one way and the other, something like that would clarify at least ONE point, who started it, that Zimmerman had followed Martin long enough to actually confront him, and that it would put the lie to Zimmerman's having said he went back to his car after being unable to find Martin.



So you want evidence that Zimmerman followed and confronted Martin, and that Zimmerman lied.

Quote:

I've never said I was unbiased, and you know that


Yes I do. It'd be interesting to me to hear you explain why you're looking specifically for evidence that Zimmerman is guilty, instead of looking for the truth.

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Thursday, May 24, 2012 3:40 PM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up


Quote:

Originally posted by Storymark:
I think you just showed more bias than anyone by deliberately misinterpreting her words.



Still waiting for you to tell me how you "correctly" interpreted Niki's words.

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Thursday, May 24, 2012 6:33 PM

OONJERAH



Zimmerman Had Drugs in His System Too =>
http://www.chicagonow.com/fresh-n-single/2012/05/this-just-in-zimmerma
n-had-drugs-in-his-system-too
/

. . . So I went back to the article from Your Black World. Temazepam. That's the drug
that was in Zimmerman's system the night of the shooting. So I searched "Zimmerman
Temazepam." Headlines like "George Zimmerman Had 'Close Fracture of Nose' Was Taking
Aderall & Temazepam" appeared . . .



. . .=========================
I am convinced that life is 10% what happens to me and 90% of how I react to it. ~Charles R Swindoll

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Friday, May 25, 2012 5:09 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Prime example of YOU not being able to understand what I was saying. I was trying to indicate that I'd like ACTUAL EVIDENCE, or at least clearer evidence, of either party's guilt, since we'll never have any and that would be the closest we will ever come. If it was some form of more concrete evidence than what we have...like say Martin had been on the phone with someone else and they testified that he said "I'm gonna sneak around and beat the hell out of this guy!" it would be equally helpful in the opposite direction.

As I see it, we will never have good evidence either way. As a result, a young man is dead by what I think, whatever happened, shouldn't have happened if Zimmerman had been doing the job he was supposed to do; I don't think there's much argument about that. But if Martin was some kind of punk who stalked HIM, I'd like to have known that. As it is, there's an over-abundance of evidence about both of them, so that people choose what they wish to believe depending on which evidence they view as more "conclusive". While I realize that, even if the girlfriend is allowed to testify, those believing Martin was at fault will still say she's lying, for ME, it would be helpful in making up my own mind.

As it stands, until/unless someone can explain the inconsistencies in Zimmerman's different versions, yes, i think he was a guy--maybe a rather simple one--who felt he had the right to do as he did and now is scared and confused at the result. As I've said before, I don't want to see him convicted of murder, but I think there should be some penalty for behaving as he did.

I get that you need to think whatever you want to about my beliefs on this matter, so it's useless to try and clear it up further with you.


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Friday, May 25, 2012 5:18 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


I found that article interesting, too, Oonj:
Quote:

One surprising detail hasn't been populating the media-sphere that I think is very important. George Zimmerman's medical records revealed that he was under the influence of drugs at the time of the altercation; and I can't thank any of the major media outlets for informing me of this new-found revelation.

I decided to do a little web searching to see who else wrote about the claim. I entered the phrase "Zimmerman had drugs in his system." Very specific and to the point right? What did I get back? Pages upon pages of Google results with some variation of the headline "Trayvon Martin Had Drugs in His System At Time of Death." Definitely not what I was looking for.

Temazepam and Adderall are drugs that have dangerous side effects. According to the U.S. National Library of Medicine,Temazepam, which is taken for insomnia can cause anxiety, hallucination, fatigue, nervousness, dizziness, aggressiveness and hallucinations (sic). Adderall, which is taken primarily for attention deficit hyperactivity disorder, can cause aggressiveness, delusions, hostility, anxiety and depression. So not only was Zimmerman armed with a gun, it's reasonable to assume that he was under the influence of such drugs.

I'd like to heir (sic) on the side of objectivity, but it's pretty hard not to raise an eyebrow or two at the fact that predominantly black publications were the first and only (with the exception of MSNBC's brief mention of his use of the drug) that wrote about this detail.

I'm curious about quite a few things but I will leave you with two. 1. Why the heck does Trayvon Martin having THC in his system get blasted by the media without even a fraction of a mention of Zimmerman being influenced with drugs that cause anxiety, mood swings and hallucinations? and 2. how will this new-found information affect the outcome of this case? Being under the influence of prescription drugs should not be justification for killing someone. But given the way that things go here in America, the inherently flawed justice system just might lend itself and lean in Zimmerman's favor.

How much weight I give to these two drugs depends. For one thing, the Adderall might back up my impression of Zimmerman that he's not someone with great judgment, ADHD can be difficult to live with and cause confused judgment. And side effects are side effects, they are different for everyone. My neurologist put me on Lyrica for my back pain; it worked GREAT, but left me with swollen feet, drowsiness and weight gain. Yesterday I told her I was going off it; she said there's another med in that same family which we can try: Gapabetin. I laughed; that's Neurontin, which I was on for years as an off-label med for my bipolarity; I never had a single side effect from it. So all that was written about side effects doesn't weigh very heavily with me; maybe he had those side effects, maybe he didn't. But the lack of mention of them, yes, I do find that curious. The marijuana in Trayvon's system would have been VERY unlikely to have any effect whatsoever on him that long after he took it; but it's illegal, it's headline material to say "He smoked dope!", so of course it got play. The media is rarely surprising.


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Friday, May 25, 2012 8:39 AM

HERO


Quote:

Originally posted by 1kiki:
"No witnesses to how it started."

Yes, there were. It started when Zimmerman stalked Martin. 'My attitude is: don't start nothing, won't BE nothing!'


"Zimmerman can follow Martin ..."

Sounds like 'intent' to me.


Really, following someone is 'intent'. Do you understand how stupid that line of thinking is?

There is no law against walking in your own neighborhood or following another person in a public place. Here's a good example, say there is no fight, no shooting, no confrontation. Martin walks, Zimmerman follows and eventually everybody just moves along...do you believe Zimmerman can be charged with a crime under those circumstances?

I think the problem is that you are assuming that the result (Martin's death) was the intent. The known evidence does not support that. Intent is an element of the offense

Edited to add: The level of intent for this charge is not Reckless which is what Zimmerman knew or should have known or likely known. Had he been charged with Manslaughter the intent requirment is less and this would be a much stronger case.

H

Hero...must be right on all of this. ALL of the rest of us are wrong. Chrisisall, 2012

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Friday, May 25, 2012 8:48 AM

1KIKI

Today, scientists sound the alarm on other environmental dangers. Vested interests still hire their own scientists to confuse the issue. But in the end, nature will not be fooled. Neil deGrasse Tyson


Let's say someone gets a gun, follows someone, and shoots them. Getting a gun is legal, following them is legal, but they both indicate 'intent' after the fact of shooting.

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