REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

Maybe Niki's right to be pessimistic...

POSTED BY: KPO
UPDATED: Tuesday, May 15, 2012 15:55
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Thursday, May 10, 2012 4:52 AM

KPO

"Love is natural and real. But not for you my love. Not tonight my love..."


Ousted Republican senator Richard Lugar's searing concession speech - on partisanship and the GOP's turn to the right:

Quote:

I would like to comment on the Senate race just concluded and the direction of American politics and the Republican Party. I would reiterate from my earlier statement that I have no regrets about choosing to run for office. My health is excellent, I believe that I have been a very effective Senator for Hoosiers and for the country, and I know that the next six years would have been a time of great achievement. Further, I believed that vital national priorities, including job creation, deficit reduction, energy security, agriculture reform, and the Nunn-Lugar program, would benefit from my continued service as a Senator. These goals were worth the risk of an electoral defeat and the costs of a hard campaign.

Analysts will speculate about whether our campaign strategies were wise. Much of this will be based on conjecture by pundits who don’t fully appreciate the choices we had to make based on resource limits, polling data, and other factors. They also will speculate whether we were guilty of overconfidence.

The truth is that the headwinds in this race were abundantly apparent long before Richard Mourdock announced his candidacy. One does not highlight such headwinds publically when one is waging a campaign. But I knew that I would face an extremely strong anti-incumbent mood following a recession. I knew that my work with then-Senator Barack Obama would be used against me, even if our relationship were overhyped. I also knew from the races in 2010 that I was a likely target of Club for Growth, FreedomWorks and other Super Pacs dedicated to defeating at least one Republican as a purification exercise to enhance their influence over other Republican legislators.

We undertook this campaign soberly and we worked very hard in 2010, 2011, and 2012 to overcome these challenges. There never was a moment when my campaign took anything for granted. This is why we put so much effort into our get out the vote operations.

Ultimately, the re-election of an incumbent to Congress usually comes down to whether voters agree with the positions the incumbent has taken. I knew that I had cast recent votes that would be unpopular with some Republicans and that would be targeted by outside groups.

These included my votes for the TARP program, for government support of the auto industry, for the START Treaty, and for the confirmations of Justices Sotomayor and Kagan. I also advanced several propositions that were considered heretical by some, including the thought that Congressional earmarks saved no money and turned spending power over to unelected bureaucrats and that the country should explore options for immigration reform.

It was apparent that these positions would be attacked in a Republican primary. But I believe that they were the right votes for the country, and I stand by them without regrets, as I have throughout the campaign.

From time to time during the last two years I heard from well-meaning individuals who suggested that I ought to consider running as an independent. My response was always the same: I am a Republican now and always have been. I have no desire to run as anything else. All my life, I have believed in the Republican principles of small government, low taxes, a strong national defense, free enterprise, and trade expansion. According to Congressional Quarterly vote studies, I supported President Reagan more often than any other Senator. I want to see a Republican elected President, and I want to see a Republican majority in the Congress. I hope my opponent wins in November to help give my friend Mitch McConnell a majority.

If Mr. Mourdock is elected, I want him to be a good Senator. But that will require him to revise his stated goal of bringing more partisanship to Washington. He and I share many positions, but his embrace of an unrelenting partisan mindset is irreconcilable with my philosophy of governance and my experience of what brings results for Hoosiers in the Senate. In effect, what he has promised in this campaign is reflexive votes for a rejectionist orthodoxy and rigid opposition to the actions and proposals of the other party. His answer to the inevitable roadblocks he will encounter in Congress is merely to campaign for more Republicans who embrace the same partisan outlook. He has pledged his support to groups whose prime mission is to cleanse the Republican party of those who stray from orthodoxy as they see it.

This is not conducive to problem solving and governance. And he will find that unless he modifies his approach, he will achieve little as a legislator. Worse, he will help delay solutions that are totally beyond the capacity of partisan majorities to achieve. The most consequential of these is stabilizing and reversing the Federal debt in an era when millions of baby boomers are retiring. There is little likelihood that either party will be able to impose their favored budget solutions on the other without some degree of compromise.

Unfortunately, we have an increasing number of legislators in both parties who have adopted an unrelenting partisan viewpoint. This shows up in countless vote studies that find diminishing intersections between Democrat and Republican positions. Partisans at both ends of the political spectrum are dominating the political debate in our country. And partisan groups, including outside groups that spent millions against me in this race, are determined to see that this continues. They have worked to make it as difficult as possible for a legislator of either party to hold independent views or engage in constructive compromise. If that attitude prevails in American politics, our government will remain mired in the dysfunction we have witnessed during the last several years. And I believe that if this attitude expands in the Republican Party, we will be relegated to minority status. Parties don’t succeed for long if they stop appealing to voters who may disagree with them on some issues.

Legislators should have an ideological grounding and strong beliefs identifiable to their constituents. I believe I have offered that throughout my career. But ideology cannot be a substitute for a determination to think for yourself, for a willingness to study an issue objectively, and for the fortitude to sometimes disagree with your party or even your constituents. Like Edmund Burke, I believe leaders owe the people they represent their best judgment.

Too often bipartisanship is equated with centrism or deal cutting. Bipartisanship is not the opposite of principle. One can be very conservative or very liberal and still have a bipartisan mindset. Such a mindset acknowledges that the other party is also patriotic and may have some good ideas. It acknowledges that national unity is important, and that aggressive partisanship deepens cynicism, sharpens political vendettas, and depletes the national reserve of good will that is critical to our survival in hard times. Certainly this was understood by President Reagan, who worked with Democrats frequently and showed flexibility that would be ridiculed today — from assenting to tax increases in the 1983 Social Security fix, to compromising on landmark tax reform legislation in 1986, to advancing arms control agreements in his second term.

I don’t remember a time when so many topics have become politically unmentionable in one party or the other. Republicans cannot admit to any nuance in policy on climate change. Republican members are now expected to take pledges against any tax increases. For two consecutive Presidential nomination cycles, GOP candidates competed with one another to express the most strident anti-immigration view, even at the risk of alienating a huge voting bloc. Similarly, most Democrats are constrained when talking about such issues as entitlement cuts, tort reform, and trade agreements. Our political system is losing its ability to even explore alternatives. If fealty to these pledges continues to expand, legislators may pledge their way into irrelevance. Voters will be electing a slate of inflexible positions rather than a leader.

I hope that as a nation we aspire to more than that. I hope we will demand judgment from our leaders. I continue to believe that Hoosiers value constructive leadership. I would not have run for office if I did not believe that.

As someone who has seen much in the politics of our country and our state, I am able to take the long view. I have not lost my enthusiasm for the role played by the United States Senate. Nor has my belief in conservative principles been diminished. I expect great things from my party and my country. I hope all who participated in this election share in this optimism.


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Thursday, May 10, 2012 5:01 AM

BLUEHANDEDMENACE


Thanks for posting that, its extremely poignant and accurate.

Lugar's loss is one the country will feel, though it will never know it. He represents the old mindset: country first, constituents second, party third.

Sadly that breed is being hunted and exterminated in the halls of congress, and for that, regardless of party, we should all be remorseful.

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Thursday, May 10, 2012 5:06 AM

STORYMARK


Now it's party first, investors second, fuck everyone else.

"Goram it kid, let's frak this thing and go home! Engage!"

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Thursday, May 10, 2012 5:25 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


I thank you, too, and agree with Blue: "Country first" has become a COMPLETE joke recently, and I'm afraid that won't change for the foreseeable future. It has shocked me, saddened me deeply to see us DEvolve, and made me very pessimistic, you're right.

What a beautiful speech; we have indeed lost a thoughtful, reasonable Republican...maybe the last of his ilk.
Quote:

what he has promised in this campaign is reflexive votes for a rejectionist orthodoxy and rigid opposition to the actions and proposals of the other party. His answer to the inevitable roadblocks he will encounter in Congress is merely to campaign for more Republicans who embrace the same partisan outlook. He has pledged his support to groups whose prime mission is to cleanse the Republican party of those who stray from orthodoxy as they see it.

...what he has promised in this campaign is reflexive votes for a rejectionist orthodoxy and rigid opposition to the actions and proposals of the other party. His answer to the inevitable roadblocks he will encounter in Congress is merely to campaign for more Republicans who embrace the same partisan outlook. He has pledged his support to groups whose prime mission is to cleanse the Republican party of those who stray from orthodoxy as they see it.

... ideology cannot be a substitute for a determination to think for yourself, for a willingness to study an issue objectively, and for the fortitude to sometimes disagree with your party or even your constituents. Like Edmund Burke, I believe leaders owe the people they represent their best judgment.

Right on point, tho' I don't share his optimism. It's a sad day for our country.



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Thursday, May 10, 2012 6:50 AM

RIONAEIRE

Beir bua agus beannacht


Thoughtfulness and reason are rare among politicians.

I assume you're my pal until you let me know otherwise.

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya.

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Thursday, May 10, 2012 8:40 AM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up


Quote:

Originally posted by kpo:
Unfortunately, we have an increasing number of legislators in both parties who have adopted an unrelenting partisan viewpoint. This shows up in countless vote studies that find diminishing intersections between Democrat and Republican positions. Partisans at both ends of the political spectrum are dominating the political debate in our country. And partisan groups, including outside groups that spent millions against me in this race, are determined to see that this continues. They have worked to make it as difficult as possible for a legislator of either party to hold independent views or engage in constructive compromise. If that attitude prevails in American politics, our government will remain mired in the dysfunction we have witnessed during the last several years. And I believe that if this attitude expands in the Republican Party, we will be relegated to minority status. Parties don’t succeed for long if they stop appealing to voters who may disagree with them on some issues.

Legislators should have an ideological grounding and strong beliefs identifiable to their constituents. I believe I have offered that throughout my career. But ideology cannot be a substitute for a determination to think for yourself, for a willingness to study an issue objectively, and for the fortitude to sometimes disagree with your party or even your constituents. Like Edmund Burke, I believe leaders owe the people they represent their best judgment.

Too often bipartisanship is equated with centrism or deal cutting. Bipartisanship is not the opposite of principle. One can be very conservative or very liberal and still have a bipartisan mindset. Such a mindset acknowledges that the other party is also patriotic and may have some good ideas. It acknowledges that national unity is important, and that aggressive partisanship deepens cynicism, sharpens political vendettas, and depletes the national reserve of good will that is critical to our survival in hard times. Certainly this was understood by President Reagan, who worked with Democrats frequently and showed flexibility that would be ridiculed today — from assenting to tax increases in the 1983 Social Security fix, to compromising on landmark tax reform legislation in 1986, to advancing arms control agreements in his second term.

I don’t remember a time when so many topics have become politically unmentionable in one party or the other. Republicans cannot admit to any nuance in policy on climate change. Republican members are now expected to take pledges against any tax increases. For two consecutive Presidential nomination cycles, GOP candidates competed with one another to express the most strident anti-immigration view, even at the risk of alienating a huge voting bloc. Similarly, most Democrats are constrained when talking about such issues as entitlement cuts, tort reform, and trade agreements. Our political system is losing its ability to even explore alternatives. If fealty to these pledges continues to expand, legislators may pledge their way into irrelevance. Voters will be electing a slate of inflexible positions rather than a leader.



It's good that Sen. Lugar recognizes that one side alone is not the problem. Too bad more folks don't recognize this.

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Thursday, May 10, 2012 8:48 AM

STORYMARK


I think most people recognize this. We just don't see them as equal, as you always, falsely and hilariously, do.

"Goram it kid, let's frak this thing and go home! Engage!"

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Thursday, May 10, 2012 11:02 AM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up


Quote:

Originally posted by Storymark:
I think most people recognize this. We just don't see them as equal, as you always, falsely and hilariously, do.




Since everyone seems to consider you a troll, please get back under the bridge.

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Thursday, May 10, 2012 11:06 AM

STORYMARK


Quote:

Originally posted by Geezer:
Quote:

Originally posted by Storymark:
I think most people recognize this. We just don't see them as equal, as you always, falsely and hilariously, do.




Since everyone seems to consider you a troll, please get back under the bridge.



By "everyone" you are speaking for whom, now? Aside from the wingnut contingency of you Hero and Rappy? Who, exactly?

Nice dodge though. When challenged - call the other person a troll and avoid the topic.

"Everyone" is a rather borad term - and Im suuuuure folks here are totally okay with your speaking on their behalf, right? Of are you just an asshole who didn't want to address the actual point? I bet it's the latter.

Shall I provide a list of all the false equivalencies you've presented? You're really good at them , so it's not difficult. Hell, you just days ago compared a liberal calling people names to a conservative telling people to break the wrists of their children - yup - totally the same thing, right? Another equivalence that you refused to address when called on it -

Because you are a coward.

"Goram it kid, let's frak this thing and go home! Engage!"

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Thursday, May 10, 2012 11:15 AM

M52NICKERSON

DALEK!


Quote:

Originally posted by Geezer:
Since everyone seems to consider you a troll, please get back under the bridge.



How does it seem that way? I don't considare Story a troll at all, and I've never made it seem that way.

I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.

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Thursday, May 10, 2012 12:03 PM

STORYMARK


I doubt we'll ever see him in this thread again.

"Goram it kid, let's frak this thing and go home! Engage!"

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Thursday, May 10, 2012 12:09 PM

BYTEMITE


I don't think story's a troll, but he is sometimes argumentative. I used to know a guy a lot like him actually, that people took the argument really personally because he always came on really strong, and people accused him of being a troll, and eventually when we got a moderator she was power hungry, ban happy, and a little too sensitive... Despite my efforts to try to mediate with her, didn't turn out well for him. Or me, really, because she held it against me for taking his side.

As for Lugar, I think he's got a pretty accurate assessment. But just because he's willing to admit what's going on, doesn't mean he can change it. Time will tell.

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Thursday, May 10, 2012 12:37 PM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


There's no way I think Story is a troll, period. I keep thinking you're female, Story; have you ever said?

I will say I think both Story and Mike far too often get down in the gutter with our righties and play their game, which irritates me. I speak only for myself, obviously, but it would be awfully nice if those of us who CAN be, were reasonable and could discuss things--leave the idiots to play with themselves--without the inevitable "I am, but what are YOU?" and/or picayune arguments about who said what, etc., which turns threads into long, idiotic back and forths. I think you two are the worst of "us" in that regard, and I wish you were able to let the idiots spew their idiocy without engaging them.

I can see how that could be called "trolling", but there's no way I see it that way. I see it as engaging the asses--for your own amusement no doubt, but to the detriment of the conversation.

I consider Whatzit a troll; 99% of the time absolutely nothing to say, just nasty cracks. I consider PN a troll in some respects; long, endless posts which make no sense at all and are offensive. Sometimes I wonder if Raptor isn't a troll; he makes statements that are completely nonsensical to rational people, and seems to be doing so just to "troll" for reaction. But Whatzit is the only true troll here, in my opinion. Story? Not by a VERY long shot!

I don't know why that statement was even made, it's so obviously untrue...maybe just to get a rise out of you? Geezer, to me, is blindly partisan and a contrarian, but he didn't seem to usually rise to the level of the other asses. That's changed, obviously.



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Thursday, May 10, 2012 12:44 PM

STORYMARK


Quote:

Originally posted by Niki2:
There's no way I think Story is a troll, period. I keep thinking you're female, Story; have you ever said?


Yes. We have had that conversation before. Here, maybe if I give you the "crazy eyes" you'll remember me:



(not the most flattering pic of me, but it always makes me chuckle)


"Goram it kid, let's frak this thing and go home! Engage!"

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Thursday, May 10, 2012 12:48 PM

STORYMARK


Quote:

Originally posted by BYTEMITE:
I don't think story's a troll, but he is sometimes argumentative.



Guilty.

Though I would never try to ban anyone - I get too much of a kick out of mocking guys like Rap and Wulfie.

"Goram it kid, let's frak this thing and go home! Engage!"

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Thursday, May 10, 2012 3:34 PM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Sorry, memory ain't what it used to be (if it ever was!). I'll write it down this time (I keep a list of people here, just sex, age, where they live, etc. so I know "who" I'm talking to).

Okay, I gotta say it: GAWD you're cute!! At least I'll never forget you're a guy again. Funny, as we get older, our views change; you don't look 36 to me(see, I wrote down that much!), you look more like in your twenties. I know that's just 'cuz I'm 63, and I realized a long time ago how age changes it, which I found amusing.

As to the "argumentative" part--hey, guys, he's a redhead! Does that help explain anything to anyone? ;o)

Damn, I gotta go to another thread, I can't get over how sexy you look! (I warn you, I'm saving that photo!) Okay, lecherous cradle robber signing off now...





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Thursday, May 10, 2012 4:00 PM

KPO

"Love is natural and real. But not for you my love. Not tonight my love..."


Quote:

Originally posted by Storymark:
Quote:

Originally posted by Niki2:
There's no way I think Story is a troll, period. I keep thinking you're female, Story; have you ever said?


Yes. We have had that conversation before. Here, maybe if I give you the "crazy eyes" you'll remember me:



(not the most flattering pic of me, but it always makes me chuckle)


"Goram it kid, let's frak this thing and go home! Engage!"



I have that T-shirt.

On the troll question, I don't consider Story to be a troll. But I will say that 'sometimes argumentative' is an understatement.

It's not personal. It's just war.

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Thursday, May 10, 2012 4:23 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by BLUEHANDEDMENACE:
Thanks for posting that, its extremely poignant and accurate.

Lugar's loss is one the country will feel, though it will never know it. He represents the old mindset: country first, constituents second, party third.

Sadly that breed is being hunted and exterminated in the halls of congress, and for that, regardless of party, we should all be remorseful.



His mindset was more like - ME first, my inside the beltway buddies second, and screw my constituents.

He didn't live in the STATE he represented for how long ? 30+ years ? Oh sure, that's keeping in touch w/ the peeps.

THANKFULLY, his type are being hunted down, and exterminated. They're the idiots, from both parties, who are responsible for the mess we've found ourselves in as a country.

Storybook, I too have thought you were female. I was under the impression you were 50ish, most often wearing a flannel shirt and comfortable shoes.

Funny that both Niki and I got that one wrong , together.



" We're all just folk. " - Mal

" AU, that was great, LOL!! " - Chrisisall

"The world is a dangerous place. Not because of the people who are evil; but because of the people who don't do anything about it." - Albert Einstein


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Friday, May 11, 2012 4:33 AM

KPO

"Love is natural and real. But not for you my love. Not tonight my love..."


Quote:

THANKFULLY, his type are being hunted down, and exterminated.


Good luck everyone, Auraptor's idea of purity is coming to a government near you.


It's not personal. It's just war.

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Friday, May 11, 2012 4:54 AM

KPO

"Love is natural and real. But not for you my love. Not tonight my love..."


Quote:

It's good that Sen. Lugar recognizes that one side alone is not the problem. Too bad more folks don't recognize this.

You know, it's almost obligatory when talking about the problem of partisanship, for people trying to be sensible and balanced (including the media), to lay the blame on both parties. But here is a case where it doesn't 'take two to tango'. It only takes one party to dig its heels in, and there is gridlock. It only takes one party to drift to extreme positions, and there is 'diminishing intersections between Democrat and Republican positions.'

Thus for me one side is predominantly (if not overwhelmingly) the problem. Show me instances of Democrats decrying and lamenting their own party's lurch to the left. Show me instances of moderate Democrat congressmen being 'cleansed' out of the party. If anything being a moderate 'blue dog' Democrat is pretty trendy. Being a moderate Republican means you're almost an endangered species.

It's not personal. It's just war.

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Friday, May 11, 2012 5:01 AM

STORYMARK


Quote:

Originally posted by kpo:
Quote:

It's good that Sen. Lugar recognizes that one side alone is not the problem. Too bad more folks don't recognize this.

You know, it's almost obligatory when talking about the problem of partisanship, for people trying to be sensible and balanced (including the media), to lay the blame on both parties. But here is a case where it doesn't 'take two to tango'. It only takes one party to dig its heels in, and there is gridlock. It only takes one party to drift to extreme positions, and there is 'diminishing intersections between Democrat and Republican positions.'

Thus for me one side is predominantly (if not overwhelmingly) the problem. Show me instances of Democrats decrying and lamenting their own party's lurch to the left. Show me instances of moderate Democrat congressmen being 'cleansed' out of the party. If anything being a moderate 'blue dog' Democrat is pretty trendy. Being a moderate Republican means you're almost an endangered species.

It's not personal. It's just war.



Exactly!

Yes, both sides screw up - but only one side is buring the place down to get their way.

"Goram it kid, let's frak this thing and go home! Engage!"

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Friday, May 11, 2012 5:03 AM

STORYMARK


Quote:

Originally posted by Niki2:

Okay, I gotta say it: GAWD you're cute!!



Aw, shucks. Thanks.

"Goram it kid, let's frak this thing and go home! Engage!"

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Friday, May 11, 2012 7:47 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Quote:

Good luck everyone, Auraptor's idea of purity is coming to a government near you.
Hate to tell you, but it's already HERE! And getting worse every day it seems...

I agree about the "one side" thing, heartily...but I have to add that the result of it has been for the left to somewhat dig their heels in too. Which is kinda natural and it wouldn't be that way if the right weren't so determinedly intransigent, but it is nonetheless true.

The loss of Luger is a reflection of what's happening, and it's scary. People are just so damned stupid...





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Sunday, May 13, 2012 3:36 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by kpo:
Quote:

THANKFULLY, his type are being hunted down, and exterminated.


Good luck everyone, Auraptor's idea of purity is coming to a government near you.




You don't follow threads too closely, do you ? Those weren't my words originally, I was just following the lead of BHM...

Quote:

Originally posted by BLUEHANDEDMENACE: ...

Sadly that breed is being hunted and exterminated in the halls of congress,




All I did was agree. I'm glad Lugar was defeated. Good riddance. The guy was a miserable excuse for an elected official.




" We're all just folk. " - Mal

" AU, that was great, LOL!! " - Chrisisall

"The world is a dangerous place. Not because of the people who are evil; but because of the people who don't do anything about it." - Albert Einstein


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Sunday, May 13, 2012 3:40 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by Niki2:
The loss of Luger is a reflection of what's happening, and it's scary. People are just so damned stupid...



What's truly scary is that we have a President and a party in the Democrats who are siding with a bunch of thugs and rioters in the OccuTrash gang. Storefront smashing, cop attacking, bridge blowing up rapers and drug users... if this is the 99% ( huge laugh ), then this country and this planet are totally F'd.



" We're all just folk. " - Mal

" AU, that was great, LOL!! " - Chrisisall

"The world is a dangerous place. Not because of the people who are evil; but because of the people who don't do anything about it." - Albert Einstein


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Sunday, May 13, 2012 4:48 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Isn't he amazing? Toss out anything with a derrogtory noun, a derrogatory verb, and "Obama" or "left" or "Dem", then sit back and wait for the irate responses. Don't matter how far out left field it is or if it's true or has ANY relevance...oh, shit, of COURSE; that's the M.O. on the right these days, isn't it? He's just being a good soldier I guess...



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Sunday, May 13, 2012 5:10 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by Niki2: He's just being a good soldier I guess...


And what's that make you ?





" We're all just folk. " - Mal

" AU, that was great, LOL!! " - Chrisisall

"The world is a dangerous place. Not because of the people who are evil; but because of the people who don't do anything about it." - Albert Einstein


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Sunday, May 13, 2012 1:33 PM

STORYMARK


Quote:

Originally posted by Niki2:
Isn't he amazing? Toss out anything with a derrogtory noun, a derrogatory verb, and "Obama" or "left" or "Dem", then sit back and wait for the irate responses. Don't matter how far out left field it is or if it's true or has ANY relevance...oh, shit, of COURSE; that's the M.O. on the right these days, isn't it? He's just being a good soldier I guess...





He only speaks in propaganda and bumper-sticker talking points.

"Goram it kid, let's frak this thing and go home! Engage!"

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Monday, May 14, 2012 5:18 AM

STORYMARK


Quote:

Originally posted by Geezer:
Quote:

Originally posted by Storymark:
I think most people recognize this. We just don't see them as equal, as you always, falsely and hilariously, do.




Since everyone seems to consider you a troll, please get back under the bridge.



Im sure Geezer will muster the courage to back this one up just, like.... any day now....

Lest he prove me right and show himself to be the chickenshit troll and all. But nah, he'd never do that - he's a stand-up guy.

"Goram it kid, let's frak this thing and go home! Engage!"

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Monday, May 14, 2012 10:16 AM

OONJERAH


Bill Munns: Winning vs Understanding

"One of the saddest things I have found in my internet forum experience is how
powerfully the 'win at all cost' mentality has poisoned most discussions, and how
few people actually feel that true understanding is the most valuable prize to win.

So these 'win at all cost' people refuse the most fundamental method of trying to
resolve disputes, and once they do, the dialogues just end up as verbal shoving
matches with no real winner."

Munns' web site: http://www.billmunnscreaturegallery.com/bmcgsite_032.htm

Oonj is right to be pessimistic about human nature.

We are all different here.
Some come to socialize pleasantly, some to fight.
Some spread the word on matters of importance.
Some come to share what they know and also to learn. Understanding has value.
Debate has value; it's part of the sharing.
The win at all cost mentality is its own trap. It already knows all it wants to know.
It is too closed to learn and will never be wise.

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Monday, May 14, 2012 12:51 PM

STORYMARK


Well, I won't deny I like to win.

But for me - its more about holding up lies, and making the liars face their own words. So, still waiting, Geez...

"Goram it kid, let's frak this thing and go home! Engage!"

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Monday, May 14, 2012 1:42 PM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


O my, Oonj, most excellent, and concisely puts the problem. Thank you...




"One of the saddest things I have found in my internet forum experience is how powerfully the 'win at all cost' mentality has poisoned most discussions, and how few people actually feel that true understanding is the most valuable prize to win. So these 'win at all cost' people refuse the most fundamental method of trying to resolve disputes, and once they do, the dialogues just end up as verbal shoving matches with no real winner." Bill Munn

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Monday, May 14, 2012 2:06 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Poll: Wis. Gov. Walker leads Dem opponent by 9 points in recall

http://thehill.com/blogs/blog-briefing-room/news/227189-poll-wisc-gov-
scott-walker-leads-dem-opponent-by-9-points-in-recall


be pessimistic.

be very pessimistic.




" We're all just folk. " - Mal

" AU, that was great, LOL!! " - Chrisisall

"The world is a dangerous place. Not because of the people who are evil; but because of the people who don't do anything about it." - Albert Einstein


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Monday, May 14, 2012 2:28 PM

OONJERAH


Niki: "O my, Oonj, most excellent, and concisely puts the problem. Thank you..."

You are most welcome!

Here we see that Bill is wise, as he is also artistic and perceptive.
I mean to post more of his stuff very soon. In the Bigfoot Seriously thread.

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Monday, May 14, 2012 2:33 PM

BIGDAMNNOBODY


Quote:

Originally posted by Storymark:
Well, I won't deny I like to win.

But for me - its more about holding up lies, and making the liars face their own words. So, still waiting, Geez...


I consider you a troll, and so would many others if they knew the textbook definition of troll.


In Internet slang, a troll is someone who posts inflammatory,[2] extraneous, or off-topic messages in an online community, such as an online discussion forum, chat room, or blog, with the primary intent of provoking readers into an emotional response[3] or of otherwise disrupting normal on-topic discussion.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_troll

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Tuesday, May 15, 2012 11:59 AM

STORYMARK


Ive been off-topic when? And if inflamatory gets the label... well then, you've earned it yourself. Hello pot, my name's kettle.

And that's not even touching on those who live up to every detail of your definition - but you don't call them troll, 'cause they're on your side. Hmmm. Funny, that.


But hey, lookit that - Geezer got one person to agree with him (even if he can't muster the cajones to stand up for his own claim). Now just a few other people to go before he gets "everyone".

"Goram it kid, let's frak this thing and go home! Engage!"

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Tuesday, May 15, 2012 2:02 PM

BIGDAMNNOBODY


Quote:

Originally posted by Storymark:
Ive been off-topic when?


Do you really need me to provide examples? Tell me how any of your numerous personal attacks against Auraptor are germane to the thread they are posted in?
Quote:

Originally posted by Storymark:
And if inflamatory gets the label... well then, you've earned it yourself. Hello pot, my name's kettle.


No argument from me on that. Too bad the discussion was about your troll-like tendancies, not mine. I guess it takes one to know one.
Quote:

Originally posted by Storymark:
And that's not even touching on those who live up to every detail of your definition - but you don't call them troll, 'cause they're on your side. Hmmm. Funny, that.


Not really. it's the same reason Kwicko will never call you on your grammar.
Quote:

Originally posted by Storymark:
But hey, lookit that - Geezer got one person to agree with him (even if he can't muster the cajones to stand up for his own claim). Now just a few other people to go before he gets "everyone".


It's too bad others have not the cajones to agree with Geezer. I guess it goes back to the whole sides thing you were talking about earlier.

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Tuesday, May 15, 2012 2:06 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


BDN, is there any one part of the "troll" definition that you don't fit?



By the way, Geezer's full of shit, as usual. Not *everyone* thinks Story's a troll. It only takes one person to not think that to prove him a liar. I'm that one person.


I do think you and Rappy are trolls, though. But by all means, carry on trolling.



"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence [sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero, Real World Event Discussions

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Tuesday, May 15, 2012 2:08 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)



Quote:

Quote:


Originally posted by Storymark:
And that's not even touching on those who live up to every detail of your definition - but you don't call them troll, 'cause they're on your side. Hmmm. Funny, that.



Not really. it's the same reason Kwicko will never call you on your grammar.




And why's that? Same reason you'll never call Rappy on his?



"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence [sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero, Real World Event Discussions

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Tuesday, May 15, 2012 2:17 PM

BIGDAMNNOBODY


Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:
BDN, is there any one part of the "troll" definition that you don't fit?


Nope.
Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:
By the way, Geezer's full of shit, as usual. Not *everyone* thinks Story's a troll. It only takes one person to not think that to prove him a liar. I'm that one person.

I do think you and Rappy are trolls, though. But by all means, carry on trolling.


Thank-you for your honesty Kwicko, I did not think you had the cajones to admit your extreme bias and obvious hypocrisy.

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Tuesday, May 15, 2012 2:19 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!



My grammer's just fine. Perfect? Nope. Not overly bothered by it either. But simpletons like to make mountains out of mole hills over such trivial matters, to divert and distract away from the important issues.



" We're all just folk. " - Mal

" AU, that was great, LOL!! " - Chrisisall

"The world is a dangerous place. Not because of the people who are evil; but because of the people who don't do anything about it." - Albert Einstein


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Tuesday, May 15, 2012 2:25 PM

BIGDAMNNOBODY


Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:

Quote:

Quote:


Originally posted by Storymark:
And that's not even touching on those who live up to every detail of your definition - but you don't call them troll, 'cause they're on your side. Hmmm. Funny, that.



Not really. it's the same reason Kwicko will never call you on your grammar.




And why's that? Same reason you'll never call Rappy on his?


I'll make you a deal Kwicko. You find a post where I called anyone on their grammar, besides you, and I will admit that I give Auraptor a pass on his.

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Tuesday, May 15, 2012 3:39 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:

My grammer's just fine.





I believe the word you generally use is

"Crassic."



"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence [sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero, Real World Event Discussions

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Tuesday, May 15, 2012 3:40 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by BigDamnNobody:
Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:

Quote:

Quote:


Originally posted by Storymark:
And that's not even touching on those who live up to every detail of your definition - but you don't call them troll, 'cause they're on your side. Hmmm. Funny, that.



Not really. it's the same reason Kwicko will never call you on your grammar.




And why's that? Same reason you'll never call Rappy on his?


I'll make you a deal Kwicko. You find a post where I called anyone on their grammar, besides you, and I will admit that I give Auraptor a pass on his.



You just did. By saying that you ONLY call me on any such, you've admitted you give Rappy a pass.

Thank you for so eloquently and efficiently proving my point.





"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence [sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero, Real World Event Discussions

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Tuesday, May 15, 2012 3:55 PM

BIGDAMNNOBODY


Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:
You just did. By saying that you ONLY call me on any such, you've admitted you give Rappy a pass.

Thank you for so eloquently and efficiently proving my point.


What? Your shtick is only clever in your hands?

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