REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

Obama makes it official: "I'm for same sex marriage."

POSTED BY: PIZMOBEACH
UPDATED: Wednesday, May 16, 2012 10:16
SHORT URL:
VIEWED: 3372
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Wednesday, May 9, 2012 10:00 AM

PIZMOBEACH

... fully loaded, safety off...


President Obama declared for the first time on Wednesday that he supports same-sex marriage, putting the moral power of his presidency behind a social issue that continues to divide the country.

“At a certain point,” Mr. Obama said in an interview in the Cabinet Room at the White House with ABC’s Robin Roberts, “I’ve just concluded that for me personally, it is important for me to go ahead and affirm that I think same sex couples should be able to get married.”

The comments end years of public equivocating over the divisive social issue for the president, who has previously said he opposed gay marriage but repeatedly said he was “evolving” on the issue because of contact with friends and others who are gay.

http://thecaucus.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/05/09/obama-likely-to-speak-ab
out-same-sex-marriage-in-interview/?emc=na


I want an x-ray (is that a spine?!). Pretty gutsy considering I've seen polling numbers that say the country is about 50-50 on that issue. So I'm glad to see him take a stand and not cave to "politics" - hope he continues.

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Wednesday, May 9, 2012 10:13 AM

WULFENSTAR

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg


...and the people are not.



"None of you seem to understand. I'm not locked in here with you... YOU are locked in here with ME."

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Wednesday, May 9, 2012 10:30 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Wordsmithing and spin are key w/ the Left.

See, Obama 'evolved' to arrive at this decision.

He didn't 'flip-flop'. No. Even though he was FOR gay marriage, before he was against it, before he was for it. Again.

He 'evolved' , he didn't 'flip-flop'.





" We're all just folk. " - Mal

" AU, that was great, LOL!! " - Chrisisall

"The world is a dangerous place. Not because of the people who are evil; but because of the people who don't do anything about it." - Albert Einstein


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Wednesday, May 9, 2012 11:16 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:
Wordsmithing and spin are key w/ the Left.

See, Obama 'evolved' to arrive at this decision.

He didn't 'flip-flop'. No. Even though he was FOR gay marriage, before he was against it, before he was for it. Again.

He 'evolved' , he didn't 'flip-flop'.




So you agree that Romney hasn't "evolved" his positions on anything, right? He's flip-flopped on every position he's changed? Is that what you're saying?

Here's a Google result for "Romney 'evolved'". Looks like he's used that exact language quite a bit.

Not that you'd ever admit it, of course.



"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence [sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero, Real World Event Discussions

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Wednesday, May 9, 2012 11:19 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by WULFENSTAR:
...and the people are not.





Looks like more are in favor of it than opposed to it, and have been for quite a while now.

Quote:

Polls in 2012
A May 2012 Gallup Poll showed plurality support for same-sex marriage nationwide, with 50% in favor and 48% opposed.[14]

An April 2012 poll conducted by Pew Research Center showed support for same-sex marriage at 47%, while opposition reached an all-time low of 43%.[15]

A March 2012 survey by the Public Religion Research Institute found that 52% of Americans supported allowing same-sex couples to legally marry, while 44% were opposed.[16]

A NBC News/Wall Street Journal poll conducted from February 29 - March 3, 2012 found that 49% of American adults supported allowing same-sex couples to legally marry, with 40% opposed.[17]



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public_opinion_of_same-sex_marriage_in_th
e_United_States#Polls_in_2012




"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence [sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero, Real World Event Discussions

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Wednesday, May 9, 2012 11:39 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Apparently Romney's de-evolving:





"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence [sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero, Real World Event Discussions

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Wednesday, May 9, 2012 11:55 AM

WHOZIT


This will make Larry Sinclair very happy

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Wednesday, May 9, 2012 12:00 PM

CUDA77

Like woman, I am a mystery.




Fair & Balanced. Though to be fair, they are right on that first part.

Socialist and unashamed.


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Wednesday, May 9, 2012 12:08 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:
Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:
Wordsmithing and spin are key w/ the Left.

See, Obama 'evolved' to arrive at this decision.

He didn't 'flip-flop'. No. Even though he was FOR gay marriage, before he was against it, before he was for it. Again.

He 'evolved' , he didn't 'flip-flop'.




So you agree that Romney hasn't "evolved" his positions on anything, right? He's flip-flopped on every position he's changed? Is that what you're saying?

Here's a Google result for "Romney 'evolved'". Looks like he's used that exact language quite a bit.

Not that you'd ever admit it, of course.



Note, I said THIS decision.

But thanks for proving my point. Again.



" We're all just folk. " - Mal

" AU, that was great, LOL!! " - Chrisisall

"The world is a dangerous place. Not because of the people who are evil; but because of the people who don't do anything about it." - Albert Einstein


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Wednesday, May 9, 2012 1:58 PM

RIONAEIRE

Beir bua agus beannacht


Maybe the only reason people are caving to this whole thing is because they're tired of hearing about it, so they figure if they give in it will leave them alone. Because saying no repeatedly isn't working in getting it to stop. I'm pretty persistant about my opinion of this issue though, so no evolving, or devolving, for me.

I assume you're my pal until you let me know otherwise.

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya.

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Wednesday, May 9, 2012 2:17 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by RionaEire:
Maybe the only reason people are caving to this whole thing is because they're tired of hearing about it, so they figure if they give in it will leave them alone. Because saying no repeatedly isn't working in getting it to stop. I'm pretty persistant about my opinion of this issue though, so no evolving, or devolving, for me.

I assume you're my pal until you let me know otherwise.

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya.



So, kinda like a teen age boy, who keeps asking his g/f do do something she'd rather not do, but he keeps asking anyway, over and over, until she finally gives in and says yes ?

Hmmm...



" All your gays are belong to me "

https://twitter.com/#!/adamsbaldwin

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Wednesday, May 9, 2012 2:32 PM

6IXSTRINGJACK




I'm sure I agree with what he said back then than what he said now.

I've always said, that from a tax standpoint, the government should allow the same tax breaks to gay couples as they do to hetro couples, thus making it equal.

As long as they don't mandate churches recognize it, to quote my late uncle, "let the gays F each other on the steps of City Hall, for all I care".

Being a single guy with no children, I'm behind them in the fight. I have the LEAST carbon footprint of any taxpayer demographic, yet I have to pay out the ass in taxes for other people's extentions of their own carbon footprints (IE: Kids).



My only side note about RealLife-TwoFace is to point out how much more coy he was 4 years ago compared to how he talks about it now.

I guess that's the difference between an 80% approval rating in 2008 and a 40% approval rating in 2012.

Boy... what a term can CHANGE!

I guess this is the HOPE we were all yearning for!


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Thursday, May 10, 2012 3:24 AM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up


Good for Pres. Obama.

And thanks to V.P. Biden for giving him the shove he needed to get off the fence.

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Thursday, May 10, 2012 3:33 AM

BLUEHANDEDMENACE


I agree Geezer, I think Biden deserves some credit for getting Obama to come out w this opinion, which most think he always had, but was just too chickenshit to admit to, for political reasons.

IMO, this isnt likely to cost Obama many votes, as the people oppossed to same sex marriage are pretty much the same people who would never vote for him to begin with. I see it as a little red meat for the base, while affecting the middle very little, and of course pissing off the right.

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Thursday, May 10, 2012 3:36 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


It didn't take the right long to claim that he's "declaring war" on marriage, of course...



For the record, Rush himself has destroyed more "traditional marriages" than any married gay couple has.

If you're worried about gay marriage destroying marriage, you'd better outlaw straight divorce, too.

And if you're against gay marriage, I've got an easy solution for you: Don't get gay married.



"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence [sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero, Real World Event Discussions

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Thursday, May 10, 2012 4:04 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Marriage is defined as 1 man & 1 woman. Been that way for 1000's of years. Suddenly NOT supporting that doesn't make anyone " anti- gay ".



" We're all just folk. " - Mal

" AU, that was great, LOL!! " - Chrisisall

"The world is a dangerous place. Not because of the people who are evil; but because of the people who don't do anything about it." - Albert Einstein


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Thursday, May 10, 2012 4:31 AM

STORYMARK


Just keep telling yourself that, Rappy boy. You are a master at self dulusion.

"Goram it kid, let's frak this thing and go home! Engage!"

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Thursday, May 10, 2012 4:42 AM

PIZMOBEACH

... fully loaded, safety off...


Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:
Marriage is defined as 1 man & 1 woman. Been that way for 1000's of years.



"Get the oxen, I'm going to town!"

"Inter-wha? Rubish! We'll use a Raven to order pizza!"

Why would we ever try and improve anything then?

Scifi movie music + Firefly dialogue clips, 24 hours a day - http://www.scifiradio.com

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Thursday, May 10, 2012 4:49 AM

PIZMOBEACH

... fully loaded, safety off...


Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:
It didn't take the right long to claim that he's "declaring war" on marriage, of course...



For the record, Rush himself has destroyed more "traditional marriages" than any married gay couple has.

If you're worried about gay marriage destroying marriage, you'd better outlaw straight divorce, too.

And if you're against gay marriage, I've got an easy solution for you: Don't get gay married.




Damn that's funny :)

This is one of those issues that I can't understand why it's an issue, like aren't there more important things for us to be worrying about? What's the ruckus? Why do so many uptight heteros want to have this exclusive club? What's the downside to acknowledging public commitment between 2 people? They're still going to be together with or without it, seems like punishment for something. I really hate this backwater country sometimes.

Scifi movie music + Firefly dialogue clips, 24 hours a day - http://www.scifiradio.com

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Thursday, May 10, 2012 4:50 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


A raven or owl to order pizza? Now who lives in fantasy land?



" We're all just folk. " - Mal

" AU, that was great, LOL!! " - Chrisisall

"The world is a dangerous place. Not because of the people who are evil; but because of the people who don't do anything about it." - Albert Einstein


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Thursday, May 10, 2012 5:03 AM

BLUEHANDEDMENACE


Cmon Pizmo, Raptor understanding satire as allegory? Thats really reaching.

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Thursday, May 10, 2012 5:05 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Yeah, Pizmo, I think it took guts and I'm HALF glad he did it. No, it won't cause anyone not already voting for him to do so, but it may GALVANIZE some who didn't like Romney to get out and vote. It will "smooth over" some Republican religious types' disagreements with one another, tho' given their hatred of Obama, it may make no difference.

Of course, it'll galvanize the youth vote and the LGBT vote; but may cost him among religious Black people. Nobody can know how much any of this will affect anything, but in a close election, it's worrying.

Nonetheless I'm glad he's done it. I'm addressing you because the rest of this thread is childish bickering, attempts at triggering, and just plain idiocy (not all of it, but most). We could of course have predicted totally accurately the reaction here, which pretty much reflects the ridiculousness of (probably) MOST the internet. It's a shame a real debate can so rarely be held here, as elsewhere.

I have to wonder how many gay people those who snark about it actually know. Of course, we can't know because they can claim whatever they want on the internet. How about you, Riona? From you, I can expect honesty at least. How many (if any) gay people do you know, and if you do, how well do you know them? Whatever your feelings on the subject, would you, if it were in your power, actually deny them the right to marry? I'd like to know.

The bottom line is they're PEOPLE, just like everyone here. They can't marry now just as AFrican-Americans couldn't marry Caucasians at one time, there is no difference. Gay people marrying does NOTHING to anyone else, affects nobody but themselves and it's their business, nobody else's. They're living together and being monogomous (in some cases for a very long lifetime!) just like heteros, and raising children. They should have the same rights as every other American, in my opinion.

Luckily most Americans have come around to supporting the rights of gays to marry: Americans support gay marriage 52 percent to 43 percent currently, and it's been growing for quite some time. Among independents, 57 percent expressed support, and 40 percent were opposed. And polls show that younger people especially favor gay marriage in increasing numbers. Polls of course vary. As of today, according to one, 57 percent of independents back making gay marriage legal while 40 percent were opposed. Voters aged 40-49 narrowly support legalization (52 percent) while those between the ages of 50-64 narrowly oppose it. Fully 65 percent of people aged 18-29 say gay marriage should be legal while 61 percent of those aged 30-39 agree. And there is every indication that each younger generation feels increasingly comfortable with the idea of gay men and women being married. We've been moving in the right direction for some time now:



When it comes to African-Americans, it's a different story. In the last year’s worth of Post-ABC data, just 42 percent said they support legalization while 55 percent oppose it. It's been said that this issue alone won't stop the majority of them from voting for Obama, but nobody knows how many will stay home because of it.

All the silliness and guesswork aside, the fact is this is historical, as was the ending of DADT. For me, both are moves toward a better America, just as giving African-Americans the same rights was.

I'm actually proud of FauxNews' Shephard Smith--often from what I hear the only sensible voice to speak up there:
Quote:

Fox News anchor Shepard Smith reacted to the news that President Barack Obama had endorsed same sex marriage by coolly remarking that the President is “now in the 21st century.” Smith later said Republicans who opposed same sex marriage were “on the wrong side of history” and compared same sex marriage to the civil rights movement."

Smith also said: "“Of course, in reality, what really matters is what governors are saying, this makes no legal changes of any kind. This is a states issue, at least for now, which may sound familiar to a couple of generations ago, but that’s where we are.” Southern segregationists had invoked “states rights” to defend discriminatory laws against federal intervention."

Limbaugh, predictably, immediately called it a "war" on marriage...yet another "war", among all the other silly ones. Same-sex marriage doesn't affect marriage one whit, but it's a good talking point, and totally predictable. Romney may well soft-pedal it (tho' his supporters will rag on it), given his history of a grandparent who felt marriage should be between a man and SEVERAL wives. We'll see how he handles it.

Smith's right of course; Obama expressing his own personal beliefs does nothing to change anything, except opinions of HIM (and few of those).

Basically, I'm glad to see it; I'm worried about it, but it's an important first step in the right direction, a direction America has been moving and hopefully will continue to move. And I sincerely agree with everything you've written, especially "I really hate this backwater country sometimes."



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Thursday, May 10, 2012 5:08 AM

BLUEHANDEDMENACE


Slightly new tangent, and no mocking here...serious question.

Can someone who is oppossed to gay marriage please explain to me in what way it affects heterosexuals? Thats the part I just can't wrap my mind around.

Anti-Gay marriage people always seem to be saying that it is a threat to the instituion of marriage...but I just dont understand how committed couples affirming their commitment by marriage hurts the instituion, regardless of what sex they happen to be.

Can someone help me with this? I would really like to be able to understand where the objection comes from.

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Thursday, May 10, 2012 5:20 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Oh, as an aside, it's very convenient to call this flip-flopping, but not 100% correct:
Quote:

While it’s true that Obama has held different opinions on the subject — he indicated support for legalized gay marriage in a 1996 survey, but would go only as far as supporting civil unions in 2008 while running for president, Obama has been consistent on the broader topic of expanding protections for gay citizens. He has made good on that support while in office in a number of areas, most notably ending the military’s ban on openly gay service members.

Romney on the other hand, campaigned during his ill-fated Senate run in 1994 on the promise that he would be a better ally to the gay community than incumbent Sen. Ted Kennedy (D-MA) http://2012.talkingpointsmemo.com/2012/05/mitt-romney-im-consistent-on
-gay-marriagesince-running-for-office.php
accurately says he's been consistent "since running for office", but obviously his feelings have DEvolved when it comes to gay rights. Back then:
Quote:

“I feel that as a society and for me as an individual, it’s incumbent on all of us to respect one another, regardless of our differences and beliefs, our differences in sexual orientation, in race and that America has always been a place, and should be a place, to welcome and tolerate people’s differences.

“I personally feel and one of my core beliefs is that we should accept people of all backgrounds and recognize everyone as a brother and a sister because we are all part of the family of man.”

On whether he’d go beyond merely accepting gay people and advocating for the rights of lesbians and gay men:

“The answer is yes. When I speak of free agency, I don’t just mean that each person can do what they want to do, I mean that our society should allow people to make their own choices and live by their own beliefs. People of integrity don’t force their beliefs on others, they make sure that others can live by different beliefs they may have. That’s the great thing about this country: it was founded to allow people to follow beliefs of their own conscience. I will work and have worked to fight discrimination and to assure each American equal opportunity. You’ll see that, for instance, in my relations in the workplace. …

“For a number of years, I was chief executive at Bain and Co. It’s an environment that fosters openness and fights discrimination. I believe it is a good place for gay and lesbian individuals to work. I know of nothing in our workplace that doesn’t encourage promotion and compensation based on performance, without regard to personal differences, such as sexual orientation. I believe that my record, my life, is a clear indication of my support and insistence on anti-discrimination and on efforts to assure equal rights for all.” http://www.boston.com/news/politics/politicalintelligence/2006/12/romn
eys_thought.html
admire what he said back then.

So yes, both have had different opinions over time, and you can argue back and forth about it. I don't consider it flip-flopping; if nobody has the right to re-evaluate their stances on any issue, it'd still be illegal for African-Americans to marry Caucasians. It's not flip-flopping for me, on either side. I'm GUESSING that for Romney it's more (mind I say "more") of a political decision, given all the other things he's "changed" on, whereas for Obama I believe it's more an evolution of belief, given it's not politically advantageous to come out publicly in this manner, especially during an election year.

ETA: Thank you, Blue. It's a question I'd like clarified, as well, and a very valid one. I would post the other one, too: How many who are against gay marriage know any gay people--not just casually, but well enough to judge that, as people, they haven't the right to marry?



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Thursday, May 10, 2012 5:34 AM

HKCAVALIER


Hey BHM,

I dare say you're approaching the issue too logically. How does gays doing anything with one another affect heterosexuals? Doesn’t. The point is: these bigots believe gay people just being gay affects heterosexuals. Furthermore, they believe gay people just being gay kinda ruins the world, period. They’d rather gays didn’t exist. It’s that simple.

They may not wish to go so far as to kill gays or lock them up for being gay, but nevertheless, this is, and always will be an issue of hatred. Gays are despised. It’s not about how gay marriage affects straights, it’s about what gays deserve. And these bigots do not believe gays deserve marriage. As long as you talk about “rights” and “freedoms” you’re missing the point, because these people don’t believe gays deserve either.


HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

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Thursday, May 10, 2012 5:44 AM

BLUEHANDEDMENACE


HK,
While I dont doubt that the more fringy portion of the anti-gay marriage believers feel the way that you describe, there are also plenty of otherwise reasonable, rational people that I know who oppose gay marriage, and none of them have been able to give me a solid answer to the qeustion I posted, other than "I dont think it's right" which is a bit of a copout, IMO.

I was hoping maybe someone here might have an answer, though my target audience for the question (oppossed to gay marriage, yet reasonable and willing to discuss) may be rather small here, or even only 1 or two people, I would very much like to hear their reasoning behind being opposed to it.

As I said, this post wasnt intended as mocking or as a trap, I have no intention of attacking a serious answer, I am genuinely vey curious on this issue.

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Thursday, May 10, 2012 5:59 AM

HKCAVALIER


Oh, hey BHM,

I just want to clarify. I don't mean to suggest that folks opposed to gay marriage are not otherwise perfectly rational. I meant that their opposition to gay marriage itself is irrational, based on feelings of fear and hate that go deeper than reason can go. I contend that even people mildly uncomfortable with gay marriage, are uncomfortable because gays make them uncomfortable, period. And gays make them uncomfortable because they’d rather not have to think about any of it. Gays being gay threatens such people for very personal, and generally not very well thought out reasons. Some people are only a little bit bigoted, but, y’know, they’re still bigoted.



HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

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Thursday, May 10, 2012 6:06 AM

PIZMOBEACH

... fully loaded, safety off...


Hey lookie, right there in your very own signature, just before the Einstein quote ... high lighted in red for easy dismisal.

Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:
A raven or owl to order pizza? Now who lives in fantasy land?

>>>>>>>> " We're all just folk. " - Mal <<<<<<<<

" AU, that was great, LOL!! " - Chrisisall

"The world is a dangerous place. Not because of the people who are evil; but because of the people who don't do anything about it." - Albert Einstein




Scifi movie music + Firefly dialogue clips, 24 hours a day - http://www.scifiradio.com

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Thursday, May 10, 2012 6:08 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:
Marriage is defined as 1 man & 1 woman. Been that way for 1000's of years. Suddenly NOT supporting that doesn't make anyone " anti- gay ".





"Defined" by *whom*, exactly?


Certainly not in the U.S., it hasn't. Hell, most religions don't even define it as that, or didn't until very recently. Just ask Mitt Romney's grandfather!





"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence [sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero, Real World Event Discussions

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Thursday, May 10, 2012 6:09 AM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:
He 'evolved' , he didn't 'flip-flop'.

Speaking of 'evolved', since Obama okayed gayness, and seeing as how acceptance in general has risen for it, ya wanna get busy? See, 'cause people being gay is like a virus, and I'm infected now! I wanna come out! You love me AU, admit it! Let's celebrate our passion!

Chrisisall, wearing a frilly Mal thing on his head, and ready to shoot unarmed, full-body armoured Operatives

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Thursday, May 10, 2012 6:12 AM

PIZMOBEACH

... fully loaded, safety off...


Quote:

Originally posted by BLUEHANDEDMENACE:
HK,
While I dont doubt that the more fringy portion of the anti-gay marriage believers feel the way that you describe, there are also plenty of otherwise reasonable, rational people that I know who oppose gay marriage, and none of them have been able to give me a solid answer to the qeustion I posted, other than "I dont think it's right" which is a bit of a copout, IMO.

I was hoping maybe someone here might have an answer, though my target audience for the question (oppossed to gay marriage, yet reasonable and willing to discuss) may be rather small here, or even only 1 or two people, I would very much like to hear their reasoning behind being opposed to it.

As I said, this post wasnt intended as mocking or as a trap, I have no intention of attacking a serious answer, I am genuinely vey curious on this issue.



Thx BHM, I am curious too, but I don't think we're going to find anything to make either of us go, "oh, fair point." I think it's what HK says and I think deep down most of us who don't oppose same-sex marriage kinda know it.

Scifi movie music + Firefly dialogue clips, 24 hours a day - http://www.scifiradio.com

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Thursday, May 10, 2012 6:13 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Imagine if we started a movement to ban Republican marriage. After all, nobody is born Republican. It's a choice, a lifestyle. They have no inherent "right" to marry, do they?

If you think that sounds absurd, ask yourself "Why?" Substitute the word "gay" for "Republican", and then see if you still think it sounds absurd. If not, why not?



"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence [sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero, Real World Event Discussions

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Thursday, May 10, 2012 6:23 AM

STORYMARK


Nah, that just invites the same tired excuses they already use. "Reproduction, man/woman, leviticus" all works just fine. That argument plays into their delusions.

"Goram it kid, let's frak this thing and go home! Engage!"

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Thursday, May 10, 2012 7:22 AM

RIONAEIRE

Beir bua agus beannacht


Hi Raptor, yeah the boyfriend thing is kind of what I'm thinking, "okay I give in so you'll stop bugging me about it".

Hi Niki, I appreciate that you see me, for better or worse, as an honest woman. I do have some gay friends. What they choose to do is their business, they can do what they choose, but marriage is an officially sanctioned institution, culturally and legally. And I don't think you can just change the definition of something just because it looks cool. 2 plus 2 =4, it doesn't = 22, even if people think it would be easier or more inclusive to make it so. D and H had a ceremony last summer, that's their choice but I don't see it as official the same way marriage is official. I do see it as a committment that they have made to each other though and I wish them well and happiness, they're thinking about babies now which they're very excited about, D will go first. But it will probably be a while because they have disabilities etc. and don't have a lot of money, babies are expensive.

So I don't support official gay marriage, or official polygamist marriage either. If people want to do that unofficially that's their choice though.\

What I do support is the idea of having a Sharingstuff license, for two people of any connection, lovers, siblings, best friends, etc. in which you can share insurance, hospital privelidges, inherritance rights, maybe even tax breaks. Why should sex have to be involved for people to have these rights with each other? It shouldn't.

Hi Bluehanded, you won't like my answers of why I don't think gay marriage is okay beyond what I've already said, you'll dismiss them and so forth. I just don't think that such a relationship is marriage material. It never has been, even back in ancient Greece where lots of people had same sex relationships and it wasn'treally frowned upon, they could do that and be committed, but it was still seen as different from marriage, even though the committment level was the same.

I assume you're my pal until you let me know otherwise.

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya.

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Thursday, May 10, 2012 7:33 AM

BLUEHANDEDMENACE


Fair enough Riona, I can respect that response, but I assure you I had no intention of responding in a dismissive manner, regardless of my opinion, my intent was more for insight into the thought process rather than having a point-for-point wrong/right type of discussion.

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Thursday, May 10, 2012 7:34 AM

CAVETROLL


I'd be more convinced of his sincerity if he hadn't made this announcement at a politically convenient time. I mean, if he was for it, then why did he have to wait until Biden forced his hand? Why not announce it during the 2008 presidential campaign?

But then again, when have I ever been convinced of ANY politician's sincerity?

I've got no dog in the fight for gay marriage. However, from a freedom point of view I MUST support it.

ETA: I've reviewed the US and my state Constitution. Heterosexual couples don't have a RIGHT to marry. It is simply either legislative or administrative. And unless your state has a law on the books preventing gay marriage, it is legal. Silence on a legal issue implies consent of government.

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Thursday, May 10, 2012 8:02 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by Storymark:
Nah, that just invites the same tired excuses they already use. "Reproduction, man/woman, leviticus" all works just fine. That argument plays into their delusions.

"Goram it kid, let's frak this thing and go home! Engage!"




Deuteronomy has some choice words, too:




So every man here married a virgin, right?



"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence [sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero, Real World Event Discussions

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Thursday, May 10, 2012 9:04 AM

PIZMOBEACH

... fully loaded, safety off...


Quote:

Originally posted by RionaEire:
Hi Raptor, yeah the boyfriend thing is kind of what I'm thinking, "okay I give in so you'll stop bugging me about it".

Hi Niki, I appreciate that you see me, for better or worse, as an honest woman. I do have some gay friends. What they choose to do is their business, they can do what they choose, but marriage is an officially sanctioned institution, culturally and legally. And I don't think you can just change the definition of something just because it looks cool. 2 plus 2 =4, it doesn't = 22, even if people think it would be easier or more inclusive to make it so. D and H had a ceremony last summer, that's their choice but I don't see it as official the same way marriage is official. I do see it as a committment that they have made to each other though and I wish them well and happiness, they're thinking about babies now which they're very excited about, D will go first. But it will probably be a while because they have disabilities etc. and don't have a lot of money, babies are expensive.

So I don't support official gay marriage, or official polygamist marriage either. If people want to do that unofficially that's their choice though.\

What I do support is the idea of having a Sharingstuff license, for two people of any connection, lovers, siblings, best friends, etc. in which you can share insurance, hospital privelidges, inherritance rights, maybe even tax breaks. Why should sex have to be involved for people to have these rights with each other? It shouldn't.

Hi Bluehanded, you won't like my answers of why I don't think gay marriage is okay beyond what I've already said, you'll dismiss them and so forth. I just don't think that such a relationship is marriage material. It never has been, even back in ancient Greece where lots of people had same sex relationships and it wasn'treally frowned upon, they could do that and be committed, but it was still seen as different from marriage, even though the committment level was the same.

I assume you're my pal until you let me know otherwise.

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya.



I hope the day never comes when you are told you can't marry the person you love. I think that would be a little bit of hell on earth. If it were me I'd say "stuff your conventions, if you don't want us we don't want you." But I'm not gay, or much of any kind of minority, so I have no clue what it's like to live almost every day thinking that others may not respect me for who I am, may even hate me for it and want to withhold from me the profound pleasure of declaring my devotion for another person. They hate me for being different and yet they try to keep me from being like them...?

Scifi movie music + Firefly dialogue clips, 24 hours a day - http://www.scifiradio.com

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Thursday, May 10, 2012 9:10 AM

M52NICKERSON

DALEK!


Quote:

Originally posted by RionaEire:
Maybe the only reason people are caving to this whole thing is because they're tired of hearing about it, so they figure if they give in it will leave them alone. Because saying no repeatedly isn't working in getting it to stop. I'm pretty persistant about my opinion of this issue though, so no evolving, or devolving, for me.



...or more people are starting to beleve in equal rights.

I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.

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Thursday, May 10, 2012 9:23 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by

Chrisisall, wearing a frilly Mal thing on his head...



I think that says it all, right there.






" We're all just folk. " - Mal

" AU, that was great, LOL!! " - Chrisisall

"The world is a dangerous place. Not because of the people who are evil; but because of the people who don't do anything about it." - Albert Einstein


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Thursday, May 10, 2012 9:49 AM

HERO


Quote:

Originally posted by pizmobeach:
“At a certain point,” Mr. Obama said in an interview in the Cabinet Room at the White House with ABC’s Robin Roberts, “I’ve just concluded that for me personally, it is important for me to go ahead and affirm that I think same sex couples should be able to get married.”


Its nice to see President Obama finally coming around to Dick Cheney's way of seeing things.

H

Hero...must be right on all of this. ALL of the rest of us are wrong. Chrisisall, 2012

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Thursday, May 10, 2012 9:57 AM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:
Quote:

Originally posted by

Chrisisall, wearing a frilly Mal thing on his head...



I think that says it all, right there.


You noticed! You CARE! There's a chance for us!

Chrisisall, wearing a frilly Mal thing on his head, and ready to shoot unarmed, full-body armoured Operatives

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Thursday, May 10, 2012 10:01 AM

STORYMARK


Quote:

Originally posted by Hero:
Quote:

Originally posted by pizmobeach:
“At a certain point,” Mr. Obama said in an interview in the Cabinet Room at the White House with ABC’s Robin Roberts, “I’ve just concluded that for me personally, it is important for me to go ahead and affirm that I think same sex couples should be able to get married.”


Its nice to see President Obama finally coming around to Dick Cheney's way of seeing things.

H

Hero...must be right on all of this. ALL of the rest of us are wrong. Chrisisall, 2012



True.

Difference being, Obama had the balls to say it when he has something on the line, rather than waiting till it didn't matter, as quick-draw Dick did.

"Goram it kid, let's frak this thing and go home! Engage!"

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Thursday, May 10, 2012 10:23 AM

RIONAEIRE

Beir bua agus beannacht


Hi Blue, the rest of it is that I'm a Christian who sees in multiple places, old and new testament that same sex sex isn't supposed to happen, its not just in the "stoning" section or said by one person once. So I personally don't approve of the behavior. Plus it grosses me out a bit, butt rutting etc. What people do on their own time is their choice though so I'd never support criminalizing it or anything, that isn't fair and would be a freedom crunching thing to do. I told you you wouldn't like what else I had to say, but you asked and there it is.

Hi Pismo, there are a lot of things I've been denied in life, and will be denied in life. But I accept it as reality. Just because I want something doesn't mean I get it in life. I learnt that a lonnnnnnnnnggggggg time ago.

I assume you're my pal until you let me know otherwise.

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya.

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Thursday, May 10, 2012 10:49 AM

STORYMARK


Sorry, but laws shouldn't be based on mythology - no matter how much YOU believe it.

"Goram it kid, let's frak this thing and go home! Engage!"

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Thursday, May 10, 2012 10:58 AM

M52NICKERSON

DALEK!


As far as you being grossed out...grow up. What two people do in their bedroom is really not your concern or your business. It does not affect you and it will happen with or without same sex marriage. You say you don't care what people do on their own time but yet you bring it up and state that you do not approve. You being Christian and all I would also expect you are against sex out of wedlock all together. If not that makes you a bit of a hypocrite, or a Christian that picks and chooses what they believe. What was it that the bible said about lukewarm followers again?

I know everyone get denied some things in life. That does not mean they should be denied. More so when there is not good or logical reason to do so.


I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.

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Thursday, May 10, 2012 11:00 AM

HERO


Quote:

Originally posted by Storymark:
Sorry, but laws shouldn't be based on mythology - no matter how much YOU believe it.


So you endorse murder, theft, giving false testimony, sleeping with another man's wife, and assorted other "mythological" laws.

Or maybe you just want to be the one to pick and choose the laws that YOU believe in.

H

Hero...must be right on all of this. ALL of the rest of us are wrong. Chrisisall, 2012

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Thursday, May 10, 2012 11:11 AM

M52NICKERSON

DALEK!


Quote:

Originally posted by Hero:
So you endorse murder, theft, giving false testimony, sleeping with another man's wife, and assorted other "mythological" laws.

Or maybe you just want to be the one to pick and choose the laws that YOU believe in.



Pretty sure murder, theft and lying (in some cases) came from multiple sources, not all mythological.

Adultery should not be illegal.


I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.

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Thursday, May 10, 2012 11:51 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by Hero:
Quote:

Originally posted by Storymark:
Sorry, but laws shouldn't be based on mythology - no matter how much YOU believe it.


So you endorse murder, theft, giving false testimony, sleeping with another man's wife, and assorted other "mythological" laws.

Or maybe you just want to be the one to pick and choose the laws that YOU believe in.




So you're saying you've never cut the hair on your head, shaved your beard, worn clothes of different fibers, eaten shellfish or pork, tattooed your skin, worked on the Sabbath, etc.?

If you've done any of those, you've endorsed murder, theft, violence, giving false testimoney (well, we already know that part, you being a prosecutor and all...), and sleeping with another man's wife.



"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence [sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero, Real World Event Discussions

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Thursday, May 10, 2012 11:59 AM

STORYMARK


Quote:

Originally posted by m52nickerson:


Or maybe you just want to be the one to pick and choose the laws that YOU believe in.



Pretty sure murder, theft and lying (in some cases) came from multiple sources, not all mythological.




Of course. And Im sure "hero" knows this, but honesty is not a priority for him.

"Goram it kid, let's frak this thing and go home! Engage!"

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