REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

Mass Effect 3 Ending (or Why is Everyone Such a Bitch About Video Games Today????)

POSTED BY: 6IXSTRINGJACK
UPDATED: Saturday, May 19, 2012 17:29
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Monday, May 7, 2012 4:31 PM

6IXSTRINGJACK


I just read an article called "A Fight to the Finish" in a used copy of my brother's Game Informer magazine today. Unfortunately, try as I might, I can't yet find this available to post here.

It talks about how so many people have given such a strong public outcry to the end of the trilogy that the developers are considering altering the ending with downloadable content (whether it's paid for or not, remains to be seen).

I think that's a scary direction for things to take, personally....


Video games today are interactive movies, for sure, but in the end, you're playing by the rules and frames that the artists provided.

If a crowd spoke out about movies and had the ends changed, we'd never have an awesome ending to Stephen King's "The Mist" like we did. (granted it was much darker than the book's ending, but in the book we only had "Hartford" and "Hope" to ease our fear of the future) Not everything can be a Hollywood shiny ending, nor should it be. (Any haters on Book dying needlessly, speak up.... at least Wash was on screen when it happened!!!!)


As a disclaimer, I've played very few games in the 360/PS3/Wii generation. I don't have the time for them. I played the shit out of Oblivion and Fallout 3 on my brother's XBox 3 and those games can eat up months of my time. I just can't be a part of the new generation of games, let alone what happens in the future.



All I'm saying is that if fans don't like the ending... suck it!



Go write your own story if you don't like it.



Don't even speak to me, because I won't give you any sympathy.....

Do you know how many years it took me to get to this ending on one of the greatest games ever made......??????




Yeah.... 3 years of kicking ass up until I got my ass handed to me by scores of Hammer Bros in the 8th world with no save states....

Oh... you already plan on being captured again with new "worlds" that are even harder to finish than that shit Bowser already threw at me??????

Sorry..... I played this game for 2 years on the arcade before I even had a Nintendo and my allowance dictated me to say this to you....

"Eat my butt Princess..."

~6

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Monday, May 7, 2012 5:05 PM

STORYMARK


They're not changing the ending, just expanding on it. It's more akin to releasing an extended cut on DVD. No big deal.

Though I find this notion of "if you have an opinion - suck it" to be baffling immature.


"Goram it kid, let's frak this thing and go home! Engage!"

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Monday, May 7, 2012 5:29 PM

BYTEMITE


The problem I've heard with Mass Effect 3 is that it was rushed, lot of loose ends left over, and an ending kind of like the NGE anime only makes less sense. I can see why people might be pissed, it kind of ruins the point of having played the other two games.

Also, EAGames made the endings reliant on a lot of store stuff and grinding. Grinding is pretty evil, intentionally wasting people's time.

I've never played the other two games though, so I don't really have an opinion. If I wanted to play a fascist space marine, I'd take over the universe.

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Monday, May 7, 2012 8:52 PM

FREMDFIRMA



Well, the thing is Jack - the major selling point of the whole damn game was that your choices affected the outcome and the story, substantially, none of that but-thou-must phony bullcrap neither, they really did, in Mass Effect 1 you wind up having to make a pretty hard call which leaves one member of your team at the bottom of a mushroom cloud, and if you've not been payin attention or negotiate poorly you can wind up having to blow one of them away as well...
Mind you, both stories are EXTREMELY well done, you really feel the impact of it, it's kind of up there with Aeris getting capped out of the blue in Final Fantasy VII.

And they carry over, you see - in Mass Effect 2 those choices, and others, come back around and affect the ENTIRE story, the way it unfolds, is based upon the choices YOU make, this was a huuuuge selling point of the entire game series.

And then EA comes along and shits on it, as usual - those choices mean dick in Mass Effect 3, some of them are undone, ignored, in favor of the story unfolding completely oblivious to your input, and then the ending comes along and renders ALL OF IT POINTLESS, completely, a total bitchslap in the face to folks who have invested as much as a couple hundred bucks in this, and as Byte notes the story itself is compromised in favor of EA's profiteering, up to and including cutting a HUGE (and critical) chunk of the story out of the game, so they could sell it to you after getting full price for 8/10ths of a game, which was a serious dick move right there.

Then there's how they changed the whole essence and focus of it - look, imagine it this way.

Joss gets his big budget movie, Serenity - and not only does he kill off Wash and Book, the Alliance cuts down Jayne, Zoe and Simon, then Kaylee gets tortured to death, Mal gets pitched into the Alliance version of gitmo, and River winds up reprogrammed, all told in a way that emphasizes the total futility of ever having stood up in the first place and renders anything they've ever done completely meaningless, oh, and they completely FAIL to get the word out, to boot...
Sound like a good, fun story - one you'd have an interest in ?

Cause that's pretty much what EA did to it - they wanted that series crushed cause it actually takes time and money to develop, as opposed to endless clones of the same old shit they can milk with DRM and force-authentication, only they've really, really gotten on the last goddamn nerve of their customer base - to the point where they were, no shit, voted the worst company in america, beating out even the scumbag bailed-out banksters, that's a lotta rage there mano, and all of it deserved...
Case in point: Trying to install their shit on a Win7 64bit machine cause their FUBARED installer they ain't bothered to fix since 2008, and what do they care cause they've got your money by the time you try to install it - went round and round with that even with SWTOR, which is lookin pretty fail these days.

So now realizing they've completely screwed the pooch and bleeding money out the eyes, OF COURSE they're gonna do SOMETHING to try and appease the folks they've pissed off, especially if they can make a buck off it.
Me, I knew it was coming the moment EA got involved, imagine if Fox sold the rights to Firefly to Uwe Boll or something, you'd KNOW shit was about to get awful, right ?
(I knew it was coming and refused to shell out for ME3, cause I know how EA is - glad I didn't!)

Anyhows, what they effectively did, was charge people for a ticket to see Avengers (which did in fact, totally rock) and actually give them a ticket for Freddy Got Fingered...
Oh, AND cut out a big chunk of the flick and charge extra to put it back in, laughing up their sleeve the whole time - not like that was gonna piss people off or anything....

Quote:

I've never played the other two games though, so I don't really have an opinion. If I wanted to play a fascist space marine, I'd take over the universe.

Well, if you want a Fascist Space Marine, hands down you gotta go with Warhammer 40K



Now if only you could declare Exterminatus on EA, that'd be nice.

-Frem

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Tuesday, May 8, 2012 4:12 AM

CAVETROLL


Yeah, I heard about the dogfucking EA gave to their audience with ME3 and kept my money. The only bigger slap in the face was when Micro$oft split Halo 2 into two parts and then didn't release the second part of Halo 2 to PC. At least it let me save the money.

I can't wait until we can talk about EA in the past tense.

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Tuesday, May 8, 2012 4:30 AM

BYTEMITE


Although, just to play devil's advocate a little, there's some ways that the outcry has gone too far. There's been attempts by the pissed off Mass Effect fan base to hijack online charitable causes to try to bring pressure against EA. And I don't think it's right to promise money to people who need it then hold it hostage for something like this.

Speaking of grinding and evil corporations, I'm still playing swtor, and I'm actually planning on playing D3 when it comes out. I know, but my friends all want to play.

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Tuesday, May 8, 2012 7:13 AM

FREMDFIRMA



Well yeah, you're always gonna have the nutburgers who go a little too far - Fan is short for Fanatic, so it's not like that one ain't obvious...

Another one of EA (and lately Blizzard) bullshit tactics is requiring online authentication to play an offline, single player game - there's no reason for this but to hold the customer hostage to their whims, and given EA's propensity for shutting down authentication servers, well... I am NOT paying ownership costs for a fucking rental, cause that's what that is, nor am I amused by cutting out half and more of the game CONTENT (often still on the CD) and charging the full $59.99 and THEN offering to sell you the content they chopped as DLC for ten bucks here, ten bucks there...
(This is why Fable3 went sailing out the front door into the street a while back)

And these insecure all-in-one accounts are just begging trouble, at least Playstation admitted it when it happened to them, but Blizzard is still pretending Battle.net isn't compromised six ways to sunday - hell, right this instant I know somewhere I could go and use a script to WATCH peoples logins to their accounts, unencrypted, and if I know it you know every damn scriptkiddie does for sure - oh and did I mention those all-in-one accounts keep and have access to your financial data, account numbers, card verifiers, the works....
But of course, if their ham-fisted handling of, including often enough theft and resale, of your private information causes problems for you, they accept no responsibility - isn't that nice ?

Fuck that noise - unless it's specifically an MMO or Online FPS, I buy the content outright, and once it's in my possession physically, on my property, what I do with it is MY goddamn business - I don't do digital download distribution either cause consider this...
They don't have to pay the expense of packaging and processing, and yet STILL they're charging you full fuckin retail price - that's as loony as how some E-books cost MORE than their paperback equivalents, there's no bloody excuse for it.

So it wasn't really the ME3 thing itself, it was more a last straw kind of thing by folks who've been pushed just one bridge too far by the endless exploitive and rapacious GREED of gaming companies - especially EA due to them buying out or taking over much better gaming companies and then absorbing them borg style unless their just soulless drones cranking out garbage while EA laughs in your face.

Oh yes, did I mention the infamous EA programmer death march - where they work the coding crew half to death and then pink slip them the moment the game ships, which is in part WHY they have such trouble fixing even the most obvious bugs, since they got no one left who knows how the code even works ?
And of course, result of that any one who CAN code worth a damn isn't gonna work for them, which also contributes to the horrible quality of their so-called product.

So it's not just any one specific thing, it's just the sheer AMOUNT of asshattery which has lit the fuse of their customer base, and it finally went bang, is all.

-Frem

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Tuesday, May 8, 2012 7:29 AM

STORYMARK


ME3 doesn't require authenification for single-player. Multi-player and DLC yes - but the solo game can be played without it.

The story about the DLC being oin the disk was also debunked. There were hooks in the code for the new stuff to plug-into, yes, but not the actual content (which honestly, I didn't feel was all that essential to begin with).

"Goram it kid, let's frak this thing and go home! Engage!"

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Tuesday, May 8, 2012 10:24 AM

FREMDFIRMA



Well I was speaking bullshit game companies do in general, rather than specifically ME3.

And chopping out game content to sell you later is a known issue and already raising hackles.
http://www.cinemablend.com/games/Capcom-Gets-Busted-Disc-DLC-Discovere
d-Street-Fighter-X-Tekken-40114.html

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/news/view/117132-Launch-Day-DLC-Found-
on-Risen-2-Game-Disc

http://www.1up.com/news/bioshock-2-dlc-disc

There's a huge list of these events, and it's gone from throwing in a few specials and billing for the unlock, such as Test Drive Unlimited did, to chopping out whole enormous chunks of the GAME and trying that stuff, like Fable 3 did.

ME3 is kind of borderline, but the day-one DLC is kind of critical gameplay/story stuff, and while they didn't just leave it all on the Disc (cause of course someone would hack it) it's fairly obvious it was complete and part of the game, then chopped out later to exploit for money since some of the known bugs in ME3 without that DLC are related to stuff in it not being there.

As for having to be online, D3 is gonna have that problem, Driver already does and watching Ubisoft crash and burn for it is kind of satisfying and then there's Steam - which I quite frankly despise, runs off that model.
http://www.1up.com/news/diablo-3-requires-online-when-playing
http://www.1up.com/news/ubisoft-always-on-drm-brought-back-driver-san-
francisco-pc


The whole DRM thing is ludicrous on the face of it given my purchase/use model - even with Anime(1) I go well out of my way to purchase legit copies, but once in hand they're MY property, anyone trying to dictate what I do with it(2) is infringing MY rights, and in a way that sore pisses me off.
Then there's the well DESERVED lack of trust towards companies involved with that.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sony_BMG_copy_protection_rootkit_scandal
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SecuROM

Mind you I've been snippy about it since before CD-Rom was even common, as I wound up renting some VHS tapes of the original Star Wars trilogy which had that effing Macrovision crap on em and not only were they completely unwatchable due to it, with distorted picture and sound fading in and out, they screwed up my expensive VCRs tracking system so badly I had to take it into a shop and have it worked on.
Ever since I've held a bitter grudge about DRM that "works" by making the product itself unusable, Dragon Age Origins is a good example of this, given that Win7/64bit users have to spend damn near a week worth of constant hacking at it to get it to ever work cause the included DRM does not function and the user must them actually repair that broken shit and find a way to get it to connect or the whole thing doesn't work at all and never will.

On top of that, less common these days but still a major problem is companies releasing pay-for-play games that despite whatever assertions are barely even a beta, suckering gamers into paying to be their beta testers - of course that's not limited to games either, is it now, Micro$oft ?

What it boils down to is that customers are not infinately exploitable - you shit on them over and over again, and eventually they're gonna get pissed off...
Of course, securing an illegal monopoly (Micro$oft), having the Government rob them and give you the money anyway (General Motors) or simply buying out and liquidating any other option (America Online, Electronic Arts), can stave off the process a while, but only for so long.

I will admit it's not 100% EA's fault, as other companies are themselves less than blameless - but none are quite as shameless.

-Frem
(1) And if you've any idea where to find a Legit copy of Nanoha A's - lemme know, and I do NOT mean that hongkong/malaysia pirated crap.
(2) As a rule I am against piracy - most Anime box sets run $30-$40 which is entirely appropriate, but when you get some shithead like Geneon and charging $59-$79 for a single DVD with TWO episodes on it, I won't say a word about it, especially given that Geneon got the axe for their greed and rightly so, while Funimation is making a freakin mint.

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Tuesday, May 8, 2012 11:07 AM

STORYMARK


Well, I don't support piracy, and so Im fine with copy protection software in films and games - though I appreciate what you're saying on overpriced disks. Never heard of DRM messing up a VCR though.

Im even okay with the fee to play online, or even for used software - as I accept the notion that you pay for the game experience, and the disk is just a delivery system.

But Im not a PC gamer, so I havn't had to deal with the headaches you mention regarding Dragon Age.

"Goram it kid, let's frak this thing and go home! Engage!"

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Tuesday, May 8, 2012 2:18 PM

6IXSTRINGJACK


Hey Frem,

I wish I had the article to post here online. All I could draw from about the series were A) the article and title I mentioned, B) my brother's feelings on ME and the conclusion of the series and C) what little I did watch of him playing it when we bunked together.

That being said:

A) The article presented it in a way that people were just pissed off at any of the possible endings, and I had no idea of the whole EA takeover.

B) Though my brother first hated the ending he got after 3 games of choices, he actually spent several weeks of contemplating it and playing it over again and he said that he actually liked it and that had it taken a "Hollywood" happy ending it would have been less meaningful. (Keep in mind, especially when it comes to video games, my bro is one of the most ethical people I know in the world....And I've also heard that none of the endings are shiny happy people holding hands, all around).

C) It seemed like a very interesting game to me (I only saw the first one). It also seemed a little too high on dialogue and a little to low on the RPG element for me to ever get into myself though. Kind of a weird dichotomy, when you think of it. It probably was a groundbreaking series in that regard to people who go for that kind of game play.


I appreciate your reference to FFVII, but alas, even though it was one of the most heralded titles in my all time favorite series ever, I didn't play video games at all for about a 6 year period of getting drunk and fooling around, and that fell right in the middle of it. I missed anything between FFIII (US) and FFX on the PS2. If you have a good reference for FFX though, I'm all ears, as it's my own personal favorite story in the series. (Don't do one from FFX 2 though, since it's embarrassing for me to admit that I bought a game who's cover suggested it could be Japanime porn and was one of the most enjoyable to play, yet stupidest story the series had ever made of the games I've played).

At the same time, I get your comparison to Joss killing everyone, but would you really be surprised if he did something like that? My brother tells me how he's famous for killing off well loved characters and how some hot girl from Buffy who made regular appearances finally got her name on the main theme one season only to die in that episode lol. That's awesome....

I've bitched about Serenity here in the past, but not because the implicated ending for justice and basically humanity was unsatisfactory. It was because it officially put an end to what could have been 6 awesome seasons of events leading up to and during that 2 hour cap. I don't bitch that Book died. I bitch that he died needlessly and unceremoniously and it wasn't even onscreen because it had to be crammed into a lousy 2 hour movie. Wash's death didn't effect me nearly as much, even though you saw it happen (and it was POINTLESS), but he also deserved a Viking's death worthy of a spot in Valhalla, which would have been played out in epic proportions had the series been able to get a full run like LOST or Fringe. At least Book died for something.... Wash died because there was a hail storm outside and by a freak of nature a golfball sized piece hit the weakest spot on his skull and..... BAM!!!!!!

no more fun loving comedy.....



So, to any haters telling me that my "suck it" comments deserve no merit, I'm willing to bend on that knowing this new info that corporate money may have changed the ending. It was not presented to me in that way by any influence I had before.

I guess all I can say to keep the glass half full for anyone vested in the series is, at least it was finished......

I'm still waiting for the end of Deadwood, and Dollhouse (Epitaphs), and Quantum Leap, and Terminator: Sarah Connor Chronicles: and Sledgehammer (from the 80's), and........

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Tuesday, May 8, 2012 4:07 PM

BYTEMITE


Quote:

If you have a good reference for FFX though, I'm all ears, as it's my own personal favorite story in the series.


FF10 was a lot of fun even though the story was railroaded until close to the end and the hero looked a little like Meg Ryan.

X-2... Haha, pretty princess dress up.

Final Fantasy 7 had some of the same railroading problem that plague modern RPGs and the graphics haven't aged well... But at the same time, a lot of the ideas and characters it put forth were fairly revolutionary for the time. And some of the plot twists and emotional moments are very well done.

I would like to add, as long as we're having geeky sci-fi and video game conversations in the RWED, that if I ever become a Dark Lord of the Sith, I would like to be known as Darth RainbowSparkle.

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Tuesday, May 8, 2012 6:54 PM

FREMDFIRMA



Well, laugh if you must, but I kinda liked FFX-2.

FF-X was damn good too, Yuna is actually one of my idols/role models because like Nausicaa, she never gives in to hate, nor to the foolery of ends justifying means either.

But what took it for me was her decision to not play the game anymore, to not sacrifice herself for a temporary respite which in fact just feeds the cycle, but to go for all the marbles - the notion of which I would of course sympathize with.

Now FFX-2, once you get past the somewhat ridiculous notion that the combat system is more or less cosplay based, it's actually damn innovative and versitile, effective as hell as well as entertaining, I especially like pawning the Singer dressphere off on Payne just to listen to her bitch "I ... HATE this dressphere.." meh heh heh.
And gotta admit Yuna makes the most adorable black mage ever, wanna adopt her and feed her cookies.

But leaving aside the obligatory Tidus/Shuuyin plot that kicks it off, the root of FFX-2 is cleaning up the social aftermath of such a huge upheaval and the changes that come with it - despite the constant aggression, Yuna realizes that the world NEEDS the Church of Yevon, for those who feel cast adrift and need some stable social bedrock to cling to, and it NEEDS the Youth League, for those who wish to embrace change and innovate - neither one is right or wrong cause there IS no right or wrong in it, but the mutual antagonism risks driving things back into chaos, so she uses her influence to drive the point home.
This greater plot does kind of get lost in there sometimes, but the prevalent theme is that forcing your ways at others is unacceptable and leads to harm for all involved, and THAT is a message I can stand by.

I think you'd really like FF IX though, Jack - what they did was go back to the old school graphics and gameplay, with the CGI cutscenes and involved story arcs of the later games, and it worked for me quite well - plus for once the designated Hero, Zidane, doesn't have a host of mental/emotional issues like Squall or Cloud - he only gets really upset once, and has a drinking binge, then gets right back to work, I rather liked him.

Also, the best moment of FFVII doesn't even come from the game, but rather the after-game tie in movie, Advents Children.
They track down the bad guys to the forest (which has a slight dimensional offset, I bet the cellphone reception sucks) and run into Vincent Valentine, who more or less hangs out there, and having figured out the baddies plan and wanting to call in reinforcements, Barretts daughter (I forget her name) asks to borrow Vincents phone since Clouds was lost in the scuffle... only for Vincent to whip open his cloak and show he doesn't have one.

Her reaction is PRICELESS - "You don't have a PHONE??!!" with this what-are-you-crazy look/tone, I hit the floor laughing, that was great, and it gets paid off later when he shows up for the inevitable final showdown and the first words out of his mouth.. "Where can I buy a phone?".



-Frem

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Wednesday, May 9, 2012 12:39 AM

FREMDFIRMA



Oh, and this one just for you Byte, since you will no doubt appreciate it from a Fanfic/Crack-pairing perspective...



That had me in hysterics, it did.


-F

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Wednesday, May 9, 2012 8:07 AM

BYTEMITE


Oh yeah, I know, it's just the FFX-2 combat system is just so off-the-wall. There's an excellent point the game makes but it goes through some pretty ridiculous plotlines and hoops to make it.

FFX was great though. Make your own fate instead of accept the status quo. FF9 was like that too, I also liked it.

Ohmigosh, Yuffentine. So funny. Yes, crack pairing is right.

I liked Advent Children but I didn't really bother with the new games. Zack's story would actually be pretty cool and he's an interesting upbeat hero compared to the bleak setting, but, you kinda know how it ends. And Dirge of Cerberus, Vincent the vampire being emo... Story might have been good but I probably couldn't get past that part enough to play.

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Wednesday, May 9, 2012 8:21 AM

STORYMARK


Quote:

Originally posted by 6IXSTRINGJACK:


B) Though my brother first hated the ending he got after 3 games of choices, he actually spent several weeks of contemplating it and playing it over again and he said that he actually liked it and that had it taken a "Hollywood" happy ending it would have been less meaningful. (Keep in mind, especially when it comes to video games, my bro is one of the most ethical people I know in the world....And I've also heard that none of the endings are shiny happy people holding hands, all around).



The anger over the ending isn't about it not being a happy ending (those trying to dismiss the anger default to that position, though, as the aarticle illustrates) - its more about the game failing to live up to the promise it made in terms of choice-based storytelling. And because it really didn't make a lot of sense (the game ends by killing several main characters, and eliminating intergalactic travel.... and then caps it with a cut scene showing the remaing characers - plus on of the dead ones, traveling to a new galaxy....)

Quote:

C) It seemed like a very interesting game to me (I only saw the first one). It also seemed a little too high on dialogue and a little to low on the RPG element for me to ever get into myself though. Kind of a weird dichotomy, when you think of it. It probably was a groundbreaking series in that regard to people who go for that kind of game play.



The numbers and stats based RPG elements diminish with each entry, but the dialog is where the real "role playing" comes in. Your choices in the dialog scenes effect the story and charcters far more than pips added to skills and such.

"Goram it kid, let's frak this thing and go home! Engage!"

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Wednesday, May 9, 2012 1:56 PM

6IXSTRINGJACK





Quote:

Originally posted by FREMDFIRMA:

Well, laugh if you must, but I kinda liked FFX-2.

FF-X was damn good too, Yuna is actually one of my idols/role models because like Nausicaa, she never gives in to hate, nor to the foolery of ends justifying means either.

But what took it for me was her decision to not play the game anymore, to not sacrifice herself for a temporary respite which in fact just feeds the cycle, but to go for all the marbles - the notion of which I would of course sympathize with.

Now FFX-2, once you get past the somewhat ridiculous notion that the combat system is more or less cosplay based, it's actually damn innovative and versitile, effective as hell as well as entertaining, I especially like pawning the Singer dressphere off on Payne just to listen to her bitch "I ... HATE this dressphere.." meh heh heh.
And gotta admit Yuna makes the most adorable black mage ever, wanna adopt her and feed her cookies.

But leaving aside the obligatory Tidus/Shuuyin plot that kicks it off, the root of FFX-2 is cleaning up the social aftermath of such a huge upheaval and the changes that come with it - despite the constant aggression, Yuna realizes that the world NEEDS the Church of Yevon, for those who feel cast adrift and need some stable social bedrock to cling to, and it NEEDS the Youth League, for those who wish to embrace change and innovate - neither one is right or wrong cause there IS no right or wrong in it, but the mutual antagonism risks driving things back into chaos, so she uses her influence to drive the point home.
This greater plot does kind of get lost in there sometimes, but the prevalent theme is that forcing your ways at others is unacceptable and leads to harm for all involved, and THAT is a message I can stand by.

I think you'd really like FF IX though, Jack - what they did was go back to the old school graphics and gameplay, with the CGI cutscenes and involved story arcs of the later games, and it worked for me quite well - plus for once the designated Hero, Zidane, doesn't have a host of mental/emotional issues like Squall or Cloud - he only gets really upset once, and has a drinking binge, then gets right back to work, I rather liked him.

Also, the best moment of FFVII doesn't even come from the game, but rather the after-game tie in movie, Advents Children.
They track down the bad guys to the forest (which has a slight dimensional offset, I bet the cellphone reception sucks) and run into Vincent Valentine, who more or less hangs out there, and having figured out the baddies plan and wanting to call in reinforcements, Barretts daughter (I forget her name) asks to borrow Vincents phone since Clouds was lost in the scuffle... only for Vincent to whip open his cloak and show he doesn't have one.

Her reaction is PRICELESS - "You don't have a PHONE??!!" with this what-are-you-crazy look/tone, I hit the floor laughing, that was great, and it gets paid off later when he shows up for the inevitable final showdown and the first words out of his mouth.. "Where can I buy a phone?".



-Frem



I'm not laughing at you about FFXII Frem. (But the cute black girl at the register at Best Buy giggled at me after looking at the cover when I used my Christmas gift card to buy the "platinum" version of it.)

In all, the story wasn't bad at all, and I can't tell you how many people I showed that AMAZING intro "what can I do for you" scene to......

In fact.... for anyone who doesn't know, HEEEEEEEERRRRRREEEEEESSSSS YOUTUBE!!!!!



Overall, I actually loved the game. For me, the only game in the series that fed my OCD tennancies more was FFXII (which I stopped playing over 3-4 years ago and admittedly never saw the ending to). I spent damn near 400 hours playing FFXII and never saw the damn ending..... Real life got in the way of me trying to get 100% of the game. On the flip side, my brother saw the game's story to completion in about 50 hours. (He didn't spend 10 hours of real-time fighting that ridiculous monster that you have to keep leaving the screen and healing and coming back for more punishment about 100 times, for one).



BTW... While playing FFX2, did you ever hear the YRP Girls say anything suggestive or even "dirty" while playing??? I can't remember what Payne said in one battle, but it was very Femdom BDSM and in all my playing time she only said it once. It was something along the lines of "that's a good boy", but it was even more over the top than that.

I'd love to read a full script of every battle exclamation made from that game and see what algorithms and/or perimeters needed to be met to hear them.




In the end FFX was a MUCH better story in my opinion. I always loved the US FFII more than FFIII, but FFX just blew it away. (Remember, I missed all of the PSX entries except for FFXIII). The only problem was, I've never been able to bring myself back to play it again because after playing FFX2 and FFXII the battle system is so outdated I may as well be playing FF for NES. I wish they'd remake FFX on a new system and update everything about it around the best storyline I've ever seen in an RPG.


Speaking of FFXIII, a song I always love playing on my guitar is Breezy..... It's so meditative, and being able to play the tricky parts with ease and just loop this over and over... well, there's no words to explain how good it feels, even if nobody ever heard me play it but myself.


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Wednesday, May 9, 2012 2:08 PM

6IXSTRINGJACK


Quote:

Originally posted by Storymark:The anger over the ending isn't about it not being a happy ending (those trying to dismiss the anger default to that position, though, as the aarticle illustrates) - its more about the game failing to live up to the promise it made in terms of choice-based storytelling. And because it really didn't make a lot of sense (the game ends by killing several main characters, and eliminating intergalactic travel.... and then caps it with a cut scene showing the remaing characers - plus on of the dead ones, traveling to a new galaxy....)


Hey Storymark,

Another thing I can say I'm not equipped to really comment on. At this point, I have to admit that I'm an old guy with tech and games, even though I'm only 32. I enjoy reading about new games, but I can't risk getting addicted to the next interactive story OCD fest that will eat up another 3 months of my time.

The only real comparison I could make to you is how disappointed I was that the most amazing game I'd ever played at the time (PC Deus Ex) allowed you to pretty much do whatever the F you wanted and seemingly create your own story the whole way through, but in the end, no matter how you played it, you were still able to make the same three lame choices at the end. I was 10 times as dissapointed when the XBox version of Deus Ex 2 only did you the favor of throwing the "renegade" ending to give you 4 different endings, nullifying any choices you made along the way.




Maybe EA is to blame????

Maybe it's just not possible to pay for a story that could have 2,000 truly different endings based off of your decisions?



I'm just an old school guy man.....

Up until I was at least 10 years old, the only game I had ever seen an "ending" to was Pitfall II on Atari 2600. All that happened was a lion shook his tail!!!!! I'm pretty sure that every other console game that was put out on an Atari platform NEVER had an official ending!

That's why when we got 1 screen "endings" for games from Nintendo after putting in up to hundereds of hours we were grateful.

Take for instance, the end screen when I finally finished Ghostbusters on NES:



The Angry Video Game Nerd says it all way better here if you have the time:



AVGN is awesome lol...


I'd LOVE to hear his opinion over the bitching about new game endings and downloadable content in this brave new world we live in.




EDITED TO ADD:

If you liked that, AVGN REALLY HATED THIS GAME!!!!

Ghostbusters (Part 1):



Ghostbusters (Part 2):



Ghostbusters (Part 3):




LOL

Seriously man... those three take less time than an episode of The Office, and I think it's even funnier.

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Thursday, May 10, 2012 6:48 AM

FREMDFIRMA



Heh, seems a lotta folk got frustrated with SWTOR just like I did, but probably for different reasons.

‘Star Wars: The Old Republic’ loses 400,000 subscribers
http://games.yahoo.com/blogs/plugged-in/star-wars-old-republic-loses-4
00-000-subscribers-233012275.html


Of course, if they wanted me to reactivate, they just majorly shot themselves in the foot.
Quote:

To try and give the game a boost, EA plans to release not one, but two expansions in the next three months, bringing more content to the game, including player versus player content, additional achievements and a greater focus on guilds.

I rather despise MMO based PVP, cause 99.995% of it is more PVV (Player Versus Victim), stuff like ganking newbies, corpse camping, exploits trying desperately for that e-peen ego-stroking I-win button, often carried meta into forums and support and social manipulation of Devs to where all too often they get it...
One person I helped set up WoW for back in the day, there was some high level punk sitting RIGHT at the damn spawn point for new characters, chopping them down the instant they logged in, with a buddy at the nearest graveyard, so every time he tried to rez they'd just hack him down again - you can imagine what his opinion of the game was after half an hour of that - he asked me how to "get this crap off my machine" a day or so later.

I can maybe-barely tolerate it if it's confined to specific zones (with barriers/warnings so that they can't be wandered into on accident) or by mutual consent - but even that falls when the game starts actively discriminating against those who do not participate (lower quality gear, no perks, etc), effectively making them second class citizens.

And I hate guilds - I thoroughly despise forced-party systems, which is why I hated FFXI bitterly, and this eventually turned me even against Flashpoints, although I gotta say the epic-level disaster left in our wake when me and some other browncoats did one of the early imperial ones was HYSTERICAL, you could count the survivors on your fingers, including us...

But cause I play without Guild affiliations, one of my major annoyances is being non-stop spam bombarded with Guild invites, to the point where I even have a macro for it, followed by /ignore - which winds up with my ignore list overflowing and crashing the chat engine too damn often for my liking.
"No, I do NOT want to join your guild, I have no intention to spend my limited gaming time functioning as your personal enrichment drone, nor am I interested in being ripped off or subjected to other peoples drama and whining, now go away."

And yeah, some folk ask me, why play an MMO if you're so antisocial?!
Well, I ain't - but I want that association on MY terms, not as perp and victim, or exploiter and exploited, or because I have no choice... WHEN I want to associate with other people, I will do so, because I want to, not because I have to, which is pretty much the root of it.
See, the moment you accept the party invite, now you're obligated to THEIR schedule, to THEIR plans and intentions, as well as your own - sometimes I'm cool with that, sometimes I ain't - I like the freedom to leave my character in a quiet corner and go make a sandwich, or appease the cats need for attention or maybe go check my mail, but unlike a lot of folk, I have little inclination to do that when it leaves someone else swinging at the windy corner, not that this is very much reciprocated...

Oh, yah - and one other thing I like about FF IX is that one of your characters (Quina Qu) is in fact an Anarchist/Hedonist, even his character quote highlights it.
"I do what I want! You have problem ?"

-Frem

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Thursday, May 10, 2012 6:59 AM

STORYMARK


Quote:

Originally posted by 6IXSTRINGJACK:
Another thing I can say I'm not equipped to really comment on. At this point, I have to admit that I'm an old guy with tech and games, even though I'm only 32. I enjoy reading about new games, but I can't risk getting addicted to the next interactive story OCD fest that will eat up another 3 months of my time.



Yeah, I know what you mean. Im 36 myself, and while I still play - I generally avoid the long-term games, or maybe just go for one a year. Otherwise, I stick to stuff I can shoot through in a couple days.

"Goram it kid, let's frak this thing and go home! Engage!"

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Thursday, May 10, 2012 7:17 AM

BLUEHANDEDMENACE


Final Fantasy X was amazing for me for one simple reason, my first RPG with audio dialogue. It added so much emotion, hearing Auron's or Lulu's scorn, Yuna and Wakka's hope, the characters were just so much more real to me than about any of the great rpgs that came b4 it (strong shout out for FF9 indeed, and much love for the poor maligned FF8 that really had some great character arcs as well)

Nowadays thats old hat, but 12 years ago, it was a gameworld-changing event.

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Thursday, May 10, 2012 12:56 PM

BYTEMITE


Well, to be fair, on PvP servers in WoW it's all confined to mid-level to high-level zones, and starter zones have no pvp unless you duel or unflag. So it probably wasn't the newbie spawn point... BUT I do know there are some zones that lower levels will go into for package ferry quests that are contested and do have pvp, and they're preyed upon by high level jerks. It's gotten somewhat better as Blizzard refined the honour system to discourage that behaviour, but corpse camping and other forms of griefing are still a problem, and yeah, the loot discrepancy between raiders, arena battlers and casual players is noticeable.

I only play on player-vs-environment servers, though, because I'm terrible at pvp. I think I have some mental block about it being another person on the other end of the connection... Or maybe I'm not very good at these games. But yeah, playing pve I don't have too much problem with just walking away from the computer when I have to, since the way my life is I really can only do casual 15-30 minute play increments anyway.

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Thursday, May 10, 2012 1:26 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


It's kind of funny, really - Six making a whole thread to bitch about the kinds of whiney bitches who bitch about the game's ending. It makes him seem a bit of a whiney bitch.

It's just a video game. It's not real life. Deal with it.



"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence [sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero, Real World Event Discussions

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Thursday, May 10, 2012 2:48 PM

6IXSTRINGJACK


Hey Frem,

NO WAY could I EVER play a MMO with no ending!!!!!! That would absolutely be the end of any hopes of being the master of my own existentialism. I would be a zombie to a game like that for life!

BTW... don't you get tired of people labeling you as anti-social?

I sure as hell do.

I had to set my brother straight one day and make him look up the definitions of anti-social and asocial.

I'm not anti-social. I'm asocial. I believe that of the two, that's where you'd fall too.


Quote:

Originally posted by Storymark:
Yeah, I know what you mean. Im 36 myself, and while I still play - I generally avoid the long-term games, or maybe just go for one a year. Otherwise, I stick to stuff I can shoot through in a couple days.



I don't have your willpower man. The only reason I don't play those games is because I don't have a working current gen system. I'm actually thankful that the 360 my brother gave me when he upgraded finally stopped working. YOU DON'T KNOW HOW BAD I WANT TO PLAY SKYRIM!!!!! It would eat every second of my free time that I wasn't working and put my life on hold forever though. I just can't do it.

I'm pretty good with old games though, PS2/XBox and anything before that. Only a few games on the PS2 like FFX, FFX2 and FFXII really killed me. I can't allow myself to step beyond that...


Quote:

Originally posted by BLUEHANDEDMENACE:
Final Fantasy X was amazing for me for one simple reason, my first RPG with audio dialogue. It added so much emotion, hearing Auron's or Lulu's scorn, Yuna and Wakka's hope, the characters were just so much more real to me than about any of the great rpgs that came b4 it (strong shout out for FF9 indeed, and much love for the poor maligned FF8 that really had some great character arcs as well)

Nowadays thats old hat, but 12 years ago, it was a gameworld-changing event.



Hey BHM,

Totally agree with everything you said. That game was so freakin' awesome, and the story rivaled a lot of good novels I've read. I wish they'd update that exact story wrapped around today's FF capabilities. I'd gladly pay for it a second time, and it would even get me to buy a current gen system if they did!


Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:
It's kind of funny, really - Six making a whole thread to bitch about the kinds of whiney bitches who bitch about the game's ending. It makes him seem a bit of a whiney bitch.

It's just a video game. It's not real life. Deal with it.



Pot calling the kettle.....


Anyway, this post is no more or less valid than any other post in the RWED. It's not as if you have ever done one single thing to improve one single aspect of one single person's life since your first post here. And obviously, since nearly everyone who posts in here frequently will NEVER change their minds about anything, it's not as if you're even potentially swaying a single vote to your "side".


On the other hand, Frem makes things happen. After I brought a story here about a teenage kid who wasn't getting a fair shake in court because of the color of his skin, Frem came in and saved the day and set things straight. It's not much in the end, but when I feel guilty for all the tresspasses I may have made in my own life, it's nice to know that because of Frem's actions after I posted that story in the "Real World" here, some dude is in charge of his own life rather than rotting in a prison cell he didn't belong in.




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Thursday, May 10, 2012 2:59 PM

BYTEMITE


Quote:

It's not as if you have ever done one single thing to improve one single aspect of one single person's life since your first post here.


._.

Quote:

On the other hand, Frem makes things happen. After I brought a story here about a teenage kid who wasn't getting a fair shake in court because of the color of his skin, Frem came in and saved the day and set things straight.


Frem's awesome that way.

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Thursday, May 10, 2012 3:13 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

It's not as if you have ever done one single thing to improve one single aspect of one single person's life since your first post here.



Are you sure? If I don't honk my own horn every hour of every day, and keep posting telling everyone how freaking awesome I am at everything I've ever tried, does that mean I haven't done anything?

I'm one of those odd people that so-called christians like to imagine they are: the kind of person who'd rather just DO a good deed rather than TALK about doing it. We've discussed this kind of thing before; somebody (you, maybe?) asked if I thought that my deeds made me some kind of special. I responded that I thought they just made me human, because I assumed others did good for people they didn't know and didn't have to go flapping their fucking gums about it, too. Guess I had you figured wrong. Like most other idiot right-wingers, you don't think it counts unless you tell someone of your accomplishments...

And aren't you missing the point like, completely?

You started a thread with the sole purpose of bitching about people bitching about a video game's ending. You're bitching about them bitching, as if they shouldn't have the right. You have the right to do that, of course - and I have the right to point and laugh, and they have the right to bitch just like you're doing.



"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence [sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero, Real World Event Discussions

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Thursday, May 10, 2012 4:52 PM

FREMDFIRMA



Play nice you two (total hypocrisy comin from me, I know!)...

Snark to snark combat aside we do sometimes make each other think about it, and minds do get changed, little by little - that's just lost in way too much poking the shit-throwing partisan monkeys cause some people find it entertaining as hell, irresistably so...
Not immune to that on occasion myself, yeah I know.

Anyhows, just accept that everyone has value, can make positive change, can we do that much, ehe ?


So - to be perfectly correct, I *AM* in fact anti-social rather than asocial, I just ain't as severe a case as folk assume, and I have damn good reasons given that I consider our society as destructive.
See, a lot of what constitutes the usual definition of Wrong, or Evil, is being against the wishes of society - but what if that SOCIETY is itself immoral and exploitive ?

I raised this with a Paladin friend of mine - pointed out that where does obedience to the law get you in a society where the laws are evil and exploitive, do you not them have a moral obligation to defy them ?
And he brought out the higher-law principle since he's religious, and I countered that my higher-law is in fact my OWN moral standards, based on do-the-minimum-harm and philosophy rather than theology.
He then mentioned it would be really, really grating to have to work side by side with someone of opposed alignment but that this would in fact be the morally correct action.
Him and I have this weird kind of synergy anyways, where we often as not come to an IDENTICAL conclusion and course of action, coming at it from diametrically opposed viewpoints, mirrors to each other.

But yes, I am in fact ANTI-social cause I consider our society something vile, so it's not an inaccurate description of itself, it's just how and why one applies it that's often incorrect.

Also, one old-school recommendation for you - find yourself a copy of Bards Tale for the XboX1.

It's damn funny, won't eat up too much of your life, and is immune to a lot of standard RPG bullshit, case in point, when the Bard finds stuff of no use to him it's converted to cash on the spot, no endless running back and forth to shops cause of artificially small inventory.
But the STORY would appeal to you immensely, the Bard is jerk, a slacker, and a lech - but still pretty badass for all that.



WORTH. EVERY. PENNY.

-Frem

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Thursday, May 10, 2012 7:49 PM

RIONAEIRE

Beir bua agus beannacht


I don't think Frem and Jack are quite as anti or asocial as they tout being. Sure they're not into parties and having oodles of friends around all the time, but they care about their fellow humans and want to make the world a better place, those are good things aren't they? Don't be so hard on yourselves.

I don't totally understand the argument that Quicko and Jack are having. I kind of see how Quicko could notice what he noticed given the title of the thread, but beyond that they've lost me, I need little words guys, :))P
:)

I assume you're my pal until you let me know otherwise.

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya.

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Sunday, May 13, 2012 2:53 PM

6IXSTRINGJACK


Quote:

Originally posted by BYTEMITE:
Frem's awesome that way.



T.R.U.E.




Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:
Are you sure? If I don't honk my own horn every hour of every day, and keep posting telling everyone how freaking awesome I am at everything I've ever tried, does that mean I haven't done anything?

I'm one of those odd people that so-called christians like to imagine they are: the kind of person who'd rather just DO a good deed rather than TALK about doing it. We've discussed this kind of thing before; somebody (you, maybe?) asked if I thought that my deeds made me some kind of special. I responded that I thought they just made me human, because I assumed others did good for people they didn't know and didn't have to go flapping their fucking gums about it, too. Guess I had you figured wrong. Like most other idiot right-wingers, you don't think it counts unless you tell someone of your accomplishments...

And aren't you missing the point like, completely?

You started a thread with the sole purpose of bitching about people bitching about a video game's ending. You're bitching about them bitching, as if they shouldn't have the right. You have the right to do that, of course - and I have the right to point and laugh, and they have the right to bitch just like you're doing.



"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence [sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero, Real World Event Discussions



Hey Kwick,

I sure do plenty of horn honking while I'm here (which is hardly every hour of the day, although it is many days a week to be sure). I also consistently lambast myself both publicly and privately and I'm by far my own greatest critic.

There are actually a billion things that I'm not going to ever be good at, and probably a half million things I've dipped my feet into the water only to run from it like it was a monster. Yes, I'm VERY successful in the endeavors I've chosen to pursue, but that's only because I have the benefit of a large amount of freedom to take the time to figure out what those things are. I do admit, this freedom has probably been because my fear of being forced to do things I wouldn't excel at made me do everything in my own power to ensure that I wouldn't ever be forced to do things I wasn't comfortable with.

In the end though... I am not comfortable in most in person social situations unless the amount of people I know outweigh the amount of people I don't know, and at only 32 years old I've resigned myself to the fact that I'll probably be a Lone Wolf the rest of my life. Pity really, since I am very capable of keeping up a conversation when I do go out to buy stuff and I'm a good looking guy with absolutely none of the baggage that even most of the best looking and richest guys have at 32 years old.... This, is my biggest personal shortfall, and although I may not post about it in the RWED, I do post about it in my general discussion thread.

(BTW.... It wasn't me you had that discussion with. I'm not telling you that any "deeds" I may have done are securing my place in a theoretical heaven. Being the Agnostic I am, I'm more a believer than a disbeliever, and I'm quite sure that if it's not all just darkness that I'll be sitting in a waiting room in purgatory for quite a long time before a choice is made.)

As for the rest... yeah, I guess I am bitching about their bitching...

After the fact, some people here who knew more about the subject and were able to explain their reasons why they feel that either they or why others may feel that way may do so, in a way that didn't insult me, I came to realize that my initial perception of the issue at hand was misinterpreted at best and ill-informed at worst.

After that, and before you posted, I said that I could be wrong here.


Quote:

Originally posted by FREMDFIRMA:

So - to be perfectly correct, I *AM* in fact anti-social rather than asocial, I just ain't as severe a case as folk assume, and I have damn good reasons given that I consider our society as destructive.
See, a lot of what constitutes the usual definition of Wrong, or Evil, is being against the wishes of society - but what if that SOCIETY is itself immoral and exploitive ?

I raised this with a Paladin friend of mine - pointed out that where does obedience to the law get you in a society where the laws are evil and exploitive, do you not them have a moral obligation to defy them ?
And he brought out the higher-law principle since he's religious, and I countered that my higher-law is in fact my OWN moral standards, based on do-the-minimum-harm and philosophy rather than theology.
He then mentioned it would be really, really grating to have to work side by side with someone of opposed alignment but that this would in fact be the morally correct action.
Him and I have this weird kind of synergy anyways, where we often as not come to an IDENTICAL conclusion and course of action, coming at it from diametrically opposed viewpoints, mirrors to each other.

But yes, I am in fact ANTI-social cause I consider our society something vile, so it's not an inaccurate description of itself, it's just how and why one applies it that's often incorrect.

Also, one old-school recommendation for you - find yourself a copy of Bards Tale for the XboX1.

It's damn funny, won't eat up too much of your life, and is immune to a lot of standard RPG bullshit, case in point, when the Bard finds stuff of no use to him it's converted to cash on the spot, no endless running back and forth to shops cause of artificially small inventory.
But the STORY would appeal to you immensely, the Bard is jerk, a slacker, and a lech - but still pretty badass for all that.



WORTH. EVERY. PENNY.

-Frem




Hey Frem,

One man's anti-social is another man's asocial I suppose. You say tomato....

As you go further into the reasons why you ARE Anti-social, I feel that you're just proving by your actions that you are less anti-social than anyone who sits back and compromises any of their "Jimmeny Cricket" core values everyday just because it's the easy path.

If I may elaborate....

Dictionary.com definitions of Anti-Social:

1.
unwilling or unable to associate in a normal or friendly way with other people: He's not antisocial, just shy.
2.
antagonistic, hostile, or unfriendly toward others; menacing; threatening: an antisocial act.
3.
opposed or detrimental to social order or the principles on which society is constituted: antisocial behavior.
4.
Psychiatry . of or pertaining to a pattern of behavior in which social norms and the rights of others are persistently violated.


Def 1) At least here, you're definitely not "shy". Although you've had plenty bad to say about some of politics worst offenders over the years, you've also come off as mighty friendly and easy to get along with as well.

Def 2) Nope, Nope, Nope, Nope, Nope, Nope and Nope. At least not here to the generally good people of the RWED when you take the median of all of our stances. I really can't even begin to think of a post where you've EVER lost your shit on another poster who opposed your views. You KNOW absolutely who you are and what you believe in, and I think that's why you are always calm here.

I can't speak of the things you may have to do in the ACTUAL real world to get the results you get, but it's not as if you weren't doing them for real people, on a micro-scale on many occasions.

Frem likes to break shit, for sure, but when he breaks shit, it's for a worthy cause!

Def 3) Well, here's where things get a bit sticky, am I right? First, to even apply this one way or another to you, we'd have to have a CONCRETE definition of the "social order or the principles on which society is constituted". These days, it's almost EXCLUSIVELY not constituted based off of our Constitution.

I'd actually take offense if you justified your supposed "anti-social" behavior based off of that definition.

Def 4) Well, we can just throw the psychological BS out the window. ESPECIALLY when it comes to kids, the only reason why you take the time to personally prod into why somebody feels someway is to help them see a less destructive path for themselves in the future.




Oh, and about the Bard's Tale.... Carey Elwes as the "protagonist" was priceless!

What was your favorite ending?????

WAIT.... don't tell me!!!!!!

Bard's Tale Neutral Ending (Part 1):


Bard's Tale Neutral Ending (Part 2):



HAHA!






Really Frem....

In the end, you are a "Paladin". You mentioned your "Paladin" friend, and I don't even know what that means in the real world. The only REAL relationship I had with a "Paladin" in my life growing up was Cecil from Final Fantasy II (US).

Based off of my own "relationship" with Cecil from FFII, in my opinion what you're doing is far more impressive. Sure, if you put in 40 hours of game time you can "save the world" with Cecil as your avitar, but when the day is done you're still living in this shit-hole we call home. You actually make it a point to do real things for real people.



Man....

When I type it all out like that and put it all into perspective.... I wouldn't even call you asocial, if you consider me the bar for asocial. I think "Ubersocial" would be more appropriate





Quote:

Originally posted by RionaEire:
I don't think Frem and Jack are quite as anti or asocial as they tout being. Sure they're not into parties and having oodles of friends around all the time, but they care about their fellow humans and want to make the world a better place, those are good things aren't they? Don't be so hard on yourselves.

I don't totally understand the argument that Quicko and Jack are having. I kind of see how Quicko could notice what he noticed given the title of the thread, but beyond that they've lost me, I need little words guys, :))P



Hey Riona,

Mighty kind words of ya....

I guess I just fit part of the first definition as a bit withdrawn from society. As much as I'd like to make a change, I don't feel that I really can so I just do what I can to help myself in hopes that one day I'll be in a position to help people I really care about and not have to worry about the problems the world and our own government are making all of them care about.

The rest of your shout out goes all on Frem, the man who makes it a point to fight for right and not just talk about it, and I thank you Riona for the timing of this post for that.



As for mine and Kwicko's "playful" bantering... that's just the difference between Jack in General Discussions and Jack in the RWED. I'm sure if you were able to view wherever Kwicko posts his interesting personal posts (facebook, twitter?) and if you really knew him he'd be much different there than he is in the RWED.

The RWED surely seems to bring about the worst in all of us, but I don't hold anybody accountable for that. If the rest of the world outside of my own family and friends and interests weren't so F'd up, I'd probably say something about it, but it's nice to have a place to bitch about it.... and.... in truth.... it's nice to have opposing opinions, no matter how "bitchy" they are.

If I ever had the chance to meet up with every person in the RWED that I've EVER had "fights" with, I'd gladly buy a round on me for all of them.

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Sunday, May 13, 2012 5:53 PM

FREMDFIRMA


Quote:

I really can't even begin to think of a post where you've EVER lost your shit on another poster who opposed your views.

Oh there's been times - most memorable was that I kinda tore Anthony a new one but he didn't take it personal and a pretty solid friendship evolved outta that, I also blew my stack at Mal4Prez in a way that I felt was more than a bit over the top, still feel bad about that one, though I did apologize.
I got my moments, it's just when one has a temper as massively destructive as mine, you get a LEASH on that damn thing, or you never get nothin done.

As for Def3 - I've said it before, I never "justify" anything, cause to do that falls into ends/means and a psychological trap, but I do stand against the mass media purported social "values" of sociopathy, sadism and exploitation, along with the puritannical stupidities which bar the way to folk exploring their own humanity.

That is in fact WHY on the AD&D Alignment Scale I really do clock in as "Chaotic Evil", which I think ridiculous, but in order to TRULY accept that label I would have to value others judgement of me, and I don't - that however doesn't stop me from lampshading it, mocking it, and toying with "Villainry" both for personal amusement AND cause of this.
Ridicule is the wooden stake that kills stupidity dead, dead, dead.

And yes, I told em both to piss up a rope in Bards Tale, the Druids were pricks and the Princess there was a monster, eff em both, I was outta there!

Cecil was pretty awesome, he had to overcome himself before he could save the day, and Rydia was one of my all time favorite FF characters cause when SHE laid the smack down, IT WAS OVER!
Summoners are scary.


The funny thing about RWED for me Jack, is that this is prettymuch the place I go to slip the mask off and put it aside for a while - I talk to folks for real exactly how I post here, I make a point of it, cause sometimes the smoke and mirrors wear on me.

Oh, for quick fun, since I been playin it lately - freebie game called World of Tanks.
Problem for most is that it does require some pretty heavy hardware to run at full spec.
I've got a garage full of heavy metal, but for a fact it's that pathetic, laughable beginner tank that scares folk, cause I am downright EVIL with that friggin thing, hehehehehe.

-Frem

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Monday, May 14, 2012 3:29 PM

6IXSTRINGJACK


Hey Frem,

I don't think I'm long for this world since I was up since 4AM and scraping and painting trailers and "containers" until about 2 hours ago, and I got a job interview tomorrow.....

That being said, I wanted to focus on just one particular part of your post here if you don't mind (since it is really taking me a long time to partake and post about it)...

I found your ADandD test intriguing enough that I took it on Google.

Don't know if this is the same one you took, it's the WotC test:

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/dnd/20001222b

Here's the results....


Your Character’s Alignment

Based on your answers to the quiz, your character’s most likely alignment is Neutral.

Neutral

A neutral character does what seems to be a good idea. She doesn’t feel strongly one way or the other when it comes to good vs. evil or law vs. chaos. Most neutrality is a lack of conviction or bias rather than a commitment to neutrality. Such a character thinks of good as better than evil. After all, she would rather have good neighbors and rulers than evil ones. Still, she’s not personally committed to upholding good in any abstract or universal way. Some neutral characters, on the other hand, commit themselves philosophically to neutrality. They see good, evil, law, and chaos as prejudices and dangerous extremes. They advocate the middle way of neutrality as the best, most balanced road in the long run. The common phrase for neutral is "true neutral." Neutral is the best alignment you can be because it means you act naturally, without prejudice or compulsion.

--excerpted from the Player’s Handbook, Chapter 6

Keep in mind the alignment suggested by the quiz is just that: a suggestion. It describes your character no better than a 36-question test would describe you. But it’s a good way to start thinking about how your character acts when confronted with issues of alignment.

Now that your character has taken the test, make a note of which questions scored in the opposite direction from your overall alignment. These exceptions can tell some interesting tales about your character Are you a good character with a greedy streak? Are you a lawful character who can’t stand the village elders? Don’t just roleplay your alignment -- roleplay your alignment exceptions, too. Few characters perfectly embody their alignment choice.


(I have to wonder, did they automatically assume I was a "She" by my results, since I never was asked a question about gender????? If so, I blame the system that made my Mom have full custody over us when my Dad wanted full custody!!!!)

Other than that, I'm actually quite happy with the Neutral standing, which I bet if the world wasn't so f-d up and/or you weren't so in the thick of things you would be as well. (Neutrality, also being one of my Dad's foray's while my Mom, at least before she found religion, wanted to dig in and scratch faces of anyone who disagreed with her way of thinking)

These tests though, as they are made today, are really rather limiting. I found myself thinking that for at least half of the questions that the answer I wanted to give wasn't even remotely represented in the ABCD equation. Although I think on any given day I'd score roughly in the same place, given the fact that many of the answers don't represent my core values, I could see a good amount of fluctuation either way depending on my mood of the day, although I'd be surprised if anything short of foreclosure on my house would make me sway outside of the overall Neutral category.

The ONE thing I can REALLY give credit to this test is the introduction. I've never even seen an introduction to any test like this that semi-explained how you should go about it or what the results might be before you take it (or after that, for that matter). This test is EERILY similar to any test you may take online before your application is submitted for a job.

Before you begin, keep in mind these caveats.

You'll undoubtedly want more information about the question, and more options than the answers presented to you. Just do the best you can, and skip a question completely if you're totally stuck.

Note that some questions are interested in correlations to behavior, not the behavior itself. For example, lawful people tend to work at secure jobs -- this doesn't mean that working a steady job makes you lawful.

Remember that certain character classes have codes of conduct that fall beyond the dictates of alignment. Paladins, for example, aren't just supposed to be lawful and good. They are expected to act humble, pious, and chivalric as well.

This quiz assumes a typical D&D setting, which is a mix of fantasy elements, medieval ideas, and epic myth seen through modern eyes. If your setting is vastly different (or your fellow players are), you may get very different answers to this quiz.



It would seem that the Quizzers are on par with my feelings of the largely "BS" answers you're allowed, but at the same time, maybe it has some merit because I fell right where I thought I should..... Not a Neutral character out of any socially imposed system I agree with, but because I feel in the end that we all should be more or less neutral (I can guaranty that my "end game" neutrality here was VERY different than at least 90% of other end-game Neutrals)

Neutrality for the sake of respecting people who can effect you first and show an example of how you want to be treated in reciprocal is what I'm reaching for here. Neutrality for the sake of "not getting bombed" or "losing an election" or an "eminence front to be cool" is what I piss on, and it shames me that our current president would be right next to me on this test because his advisers told him what answers to pick.

50 shades of gay, is what they're calling that now....

Let it be known, that I was ALWAYS in support of Civil Unions at fff.net since I was first a member. MANY years before Obama, and during GWB's first term, before it was "cool".

Whether somebody is gay or not, I'd just like to see a future where smart and somewhat withdrawn kids like I was in jr high/high school didn't just succumb to the blob and disappear... and they can actually made a life for themselves in the shitty system we have. Had I even bothered to think it was worthwhile for me to have a dream, I'd be one of the ones who graduated from an Ivy League school free of tuition like my youngest bro is doing today. The only freaking Libertarian thinker at a college chock full of Left Wing-nuts. He's my hero.




I understand where you're coming from Frem, but you're not evil.....

It's only because a fantasy test based off of "real world" elements in our so-called "civilized" society that you're labeled because you're forced to do what you do.

NONE of us will ever be a clean cut Superman from the late 70's who wears a spandex blue suit and saves the world, for freedom and justice for us all....

With what little interaction I've had with you these years, I'm not blowing smoke up your ass when I say that you're my personal Superman.

F-it if you have to bend a few "rules" here and there. Though the local law enforcement and/or governments may not agree that your behavior is anything but "anti-social", I call bullshit on that.

I still hold that your actions are Super-Social!

And I'd gladly take that to the bank, especially if it was worth some currency, since I'm really worrying about getting a job now so I don't get foreclosed on after all this work

Later Frem,

Keep fighting the good fight,

~6

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Monday, May 14, 2012 3:37 PM

BYTEMITE


Jack: The "She" thing is actually probably a remnant of how the description appeared in the rule books. I know in some of them, they dealt with character gender by alternating between "he" and "she" every chapter.

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Monday, May 14, 2012 4:06 PM

6IXSTRINGJACK


Quote:

Originally posted by BYTEMITE:
Jack: The "She" thing is actually probably a remnant of how the description appeared in the rule books. I know in some of them, they dealt with character gender by alternating between "he" and "she" every chapter.



Thanks for the re-affirmation of my sexuality BYTE

In the end though, it really didn't bother me.

I never wear pink ties or shirts, but otherwise I believe a lot of positives came out of a single mom raising me.

(without revealing my last name here), My good friend back in the day started to call me "Papa (Last Name)", and it kind of stuck. After all, I was the one who had probably put on 10 times the mileage to and from bars and parties, but I always kept the rif-raff down in the car and on many more than one occasion talked my way out of any citations while driving drunk, even with 3 other dudes in the car (and also when I had over 8 beers).

I'm not trying to tempt fates here, so I no longer drink and drive, but I can say that I've easily stockpiled over 2,000 hours drunk while driving in my youth and at least 800 hours while either drunk and/or high while driving without a single conviction (Even though I was pulled over quite a few times, and all of those AWESOME stories, I guaranty you are worthy of posts), and I ALWAYS got my friends home safe.


I'm not advocating the practice at all, but I'm just saying, that even on the nights when I spent 6 hours with 15 Heineken (when they were reasonably priced) and I still smoked bud, my ride was safer than your average teen-to-25 year old driver who wasn't paying attention to the road. If I'm wrong about that, I think the law of probability would have caught up to me at some point.

And so.... that's, sadly, my only (admittedly, UN-verifilble) claim to genius.....

Do nothing other with it than make sure that my "normal" friends get home fine and that my more crazy friends don't buy heroin or throw bricks through the windows of the people who kicked them (and me, in extention) out of their party.....



Now that my only friends from the old days are married and don't party much anymore, they'd probably get a chuckle out of the old-skool "Papa "G" reference .... but I know they'd remember it. The only 3 friends I really hang out with now on occasion have a combined 6 "alleged" DUI's they were fortunate enough to pay away....

Meanwhile....

F!

I really miss that high!!!!!

Some people lose their house to Texas Holdem at the boat....

Some people jump off of buildings with a parachute...

Some people do Cocaine or Meth 7 nights a week....

Me... I just drank beer and then drove my good friends our miscellaneous horny girls home...

Occasionally, I sang a bad ass Petty song on karaoke.....


IT WAS NEARLY A NIGHTLY RUSH.... ESPECIALLY WHEN THAT COP WOULD FOLLOW ME FOR 2 MILES AND I'D OBEY EVERY TRAFFIC LAW ON MY WAY HOME!!!!!!!


The important thing was, they ALL got home safe, every one of them, whenever I was driving.

I was ALWAYS drunk when I did it, but in Riveresque moments, I was able to completely phase out the drunkenness and drive everyone home safely, if for no other reason then it had to be done.

Aside from the alcohol abuse, I'd tell everyone in the car to STFU and just listen to the music. I always had a bad ass burned MP3 CD collection, and most of them were so drunk they just "drank" it in.

If a cop sees 5plus people in the car acting a fool, it's auto-lights on....

If the driver has somehow sub-dued them, and he's driving something lame like a Cavalier, they will move on to the next fresh target.....

As the Doobie Brother's said...



Listen to the Music baby....

This song, even in 2003, got everyone to just chill and let me get them home safely.


EDITED TO ADD:

I know these songs are dated now, but they're way less dated than "Listen to the Music" was when I effectively used it....

The Shins (Phantom Limb):



Coldplay (Viva La Vida):



DISCLAIMER: I hold no responsibility if you somehow get pulled over as your your enthralled entourage made enough noise to make sirens come on. That's your bad....

when it's over, I'd love to hear you post about it here though

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Monday, May 14, 2012 4:55 PM

FREMDFIRMA


Quote:

Neutrality for the sake of respecting people who can effect you first and show an example of how you want to be treated in reciprocal is what I'm reaching for here. Neutrality for the sake of "not getting bombed" or "losing an election" or an "eminence front to be cool" is what I piss on, and it shames me that our current president would be right next to me on this test because his advisers told him what answers to pick.

Imma throw a quite from the Acts of Caine books I mentioned at that one.
"It's one thing to be a hero because that's who you are, and something else to be one because you're too much of a pussy to break the rules..."
Caine, of course, just before he killed Purthin Klayloch, a Knight of Kryhl.

As for said test...
Quote:

Based on your answers to the quiz, your character’s most likely alignment is Chaotic Evil.

Chaotic Evil

A chaotic evil character does whatever his greed, hatred, and lust for destruction drive him to do. He is hot-tempered, vicious, arbitrarily violent, and unpredictable. If simply out for whatever he can get, he is ruthless and brutal. If he is committed to the spread of evil and chaos, he is even worse. Thankfully, his plans are haphazard, and any groups he joins or forms are poorly organized. Typically, chaotic evil people can only be made to work together by force, and their leader lasts only as long as he can thwart attempts to topple or assassinate him. The demented sorcerer pursuing mad schemes of vengeance and havoc is chaotic evil. Chaotic evil is sometimes called "demonic" because demons are the epitome of chaotic evil. Chaotic evil is the most dangerous alignment because it represents the destruction not only of beauty and life but of the order on which beauty and life depend.


I, again, disagree with that assessment, if the current social order is malicious, standing against it should NOT be an Evil act.

In fact this description is a merger of two tropes I consider both repellent, and typical distortions of said Alignment.
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/StupidEvil
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ChaoticStupid

A more accurate description is type-1 here.
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ChaoticEvil
Quote:

Type 1 places more emphasis on Chaotic than Evil, believing that their own freedom is the most important thing. They're far from being a noble person (they're still Evil after all), but they value the ability to commit acts of evil over actually committing them. As a result, this type of character can actually side with the forces of Good in the fight for freedom. Don't turn your back though, because this also means that two seconds from now their idea of freedom may change and they'll become your worst enemy. Given a lot of patience, a crapload of love, a sprinkling of luck, and a great big stick, a Type 1 may gradually reform into Chaotic Neutral or even Chaotic Good, but don't hold your breath.

It's not QUITE true about the backstabbing part - case in point, I am an Anarchist, and will quite gleefully participate in plans to advance that cause, right UP to the point where they start trying to break things other people WANT to keep, thereby imposing THEIR will upon others for the lack - which is if you actually THINK about it, which most of em never do, exactly the thing they're SUPPOSED to be standing AGAINST, and hell yes at that point I will turn on them, viciously so.

Ain't that their IDEA of freedom changes at all, not one bit - it's the typical hypocrisy and damn near inevitable decline into exactly what the "Good Guys" are fighting AGAINST which causes them to supposedly "turn on" you because YOU just violated their principles as much as the other guys did, and don't even see it...
Milliardo Peacecraft aka Zechs Merquise from the Gundam Wing series is EXACTLY like this - his principles do not, at any time, change one single step, but everybody he works for inevitably betrays them, hell, Trieze was so bloody well aware of it he sent assassins after him AS he did so, cause he KNEW he'd piss Zechs off and what would happen.

The example itself is kind of meta - it shows just how deep the blindness towards crossing the moral event horizion is with the "Good Guys", all too often falling into the trap of ends justifying means, and then the means BECOMING the ends... trust me, the very MOMENT it starts lookin like "meet the new boss, same as the old boss", what the hell do you THINK they're gonna do ?

Of course, all said and done - THIS one fits much, MUCH better.
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/PragmaticVillainy

And of course, (I really shouldn't hand you ammo for this) the one most commonly tossed in my face...
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/NobleDemon

Of course, THIS chart does it best, and I happily claim the bottom right corner.




-Frem

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Monday, May 14, 2012 5:47 PM

BYTEMITE


I don't drink or smoke, but I'm not a calm driver. it's pretty much long screams of sheer terror or a mantra of "gonna die gonna die" as I'm driving down the freeway five miles an hour under the speed limit. Occasionally I have to pull over and hyperventilate.

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Monday, May 14, 2012 5:57 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!



I got bored w/ the 1st one. *shrug*





" We're all just folk. " - Mal

" AU, that was great, LOL!! " - Chrisisall

"The world is a dangerous place. Not because of the people who are evil; but because of the people who don't do anything about it." - Albert Einstein


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Tuesday, May 15, 2012 7:15 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Quote:

I am downright EVIL with that friggin thing, hehehehehe.


Hello,

I have seen this man single-handedly clean the field with a glorified tractor.

I swear he has technopathy and his joy for creating scrap metal is somehow imbued into the game.

--Anthony


Note to Self:
Raptor - women who want to control their reproductive processes are sluts.
Wulf - Niki is a stupid fucking bitch who should hurry up and die.
Never forget what these men are.
“The stupid neither forgive nor forget; the naive forgive and forget; the wise forgive but do not forget.” -Thomas Szasz

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Tuesday, May 15, 2012 7:16 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Quote:

Type 1 places more emphasis on Chaotic than Evil, believing that their own freedom is the most important thing. They're far from being a noble person (they're still Evil after all), but they value the ability to commit acts of evil over actually committing them. As a result, this type of character can actually side with the forces of Good in the fight for freedom. Don't turn your back though, because this also means that two seconds from now their idea of freedom may change and they'll become your worst enemy.


Hello,

This actually feels to me more like a breed of Chaotic Neutral and not Chaotic Evil at all.

--Anthony



Note to Self:
Raptor - women who want to control their reproductive processes are sluts.
Wulf - Niki is a stupid fucking bitch who should hurry up and die.
Never forget what these men are.
“The stupid neither forgive nor forget; the naive forgive and forget; the wise forgive but do not forget.” -Thomas Szasz

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Tuesday, May 15, 2012 3:13 PM

6IXSTRINGJACK


Quote:

Originally posted by FREMDFIRMA:
"It's one thing to be a hero because that's who you are, and something else to be one because you're too much of a pussy to break the rules..."



Haha, EXACTLY!

Quote:

Based on your answers to the quiz, your character’s most likely alignment is Chaotic Evil.

Chaotic Evil

A chaotic evil character does whatever his greed, hatred, and lust for destruction drive him to do. He is hot-tempered, vicious, arbitrarily violent, and unpredictable. If simply out for whatever he can get, he is ruthless and brutal. If he is committed to the spread of evil and chaos, he is even worse. Thankfully, his plans are haphazard, and any groups he joins or forms are poorly organized. Typically, chaotic evil people can only be made to work together by force, and their leader lasts only as long as he can thwart attempts to topple or assassinate him. The demented sorcerer pursuing mad schemes of vengeance and havoc is chaotic evil. Chaotic evil is sometimes called "demonic" because demons are the epitome of chaotic evil. Chaotic evil is the most dangerous alignment because it represents the destruction not only of beauty and life but of the order on which beauty and life depend.



Well..... that's all bullshit. I don't blame you for not liking that result.



Quote:

Type 1 places more emphasis on Chaotic than Evil, believing that their own freedom is the most important thing. They're far from being a noble person (they're still Evil after all), but they value the ability to commit acts of evil over actually committing them. As a result, this type of character can actually side with the forces of Good in the fight for freedom. Don't turn your back though, because this also means that two seconds from now their idea of freedom may change and they'll become your worst enemy. Given a lot of patience, a crapload of love, a sprinkling of luck, and a great big stick, a Type 1 may gradually reform into Chaotic Neutral or even Chaotic Good, but don't hold your breath.


Though I don't agree with acts of "evil" being committed, I realize that in necessity that somebody has to do them to get good things done. The way government categorizes good and evil, as you're WELL aware, is often not in alignment with our ideas of good and evil and sometimes just downright insultingly wrong. This is why movies/stories like Minority Report or the Demolished Man scare me so much because the idea that there is a form of natural or artificial intelligence that can stomp out a "thought-crime" before it even has time to mature means that whoever controls that technology controls what is Good and what is Evil completely!



Quote:

Of course, all said and done - THIS one fits much, MUCH better.
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/PragmaticVillainy

And of course, (I really shouldn't hand you ammo for this) the one most commonly tossed in my face...
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/NobleDemon]

Not to throw it in your face again, but I think you fit the Noble Demon archetype more than the Pragmatic Villany. Don't get me wrong.... Most of the PV I believe fits you to a tee, but where you veer off is that in the end the acts you commit are not self serving in the least. Unless I'm reading it wrong, The PV seems to have no problem doing evil deeds as long as there's ROI (Return on Investment) for themselves.

As "evil" as you may believe yourself to be Frem, I don't really believe that you do downright evil things just because they would benefit you solely. Sure... actions you take may benefit you in the long run by helping create a better world or by giving you the satisfaction that you actually do things that improve others lives that don't have the resources or knowledge to help themselves. But if you were truly a Pragmatic Villan based off of that definition, especially with all you've proven to me that one man who really believes in something and won't take no for an answer, we wouldn't be having this conversation today and you and I would never have met (because you'd have all of your original parts and you'd be sipping margaritas on your yacht).... not to mention, you wouldn't be working security at your age when you've got about as many tech-parts as Robocop does.

I have ZERO doubt that with your abilities and know-how that you could have been a MUCH different person than you are today if you used them all selfishly all of this time.

Here's where I'd thank you for that, but I think that's been said to death and you know how much I respect you.


Quote:

Of course, THIS chart does it best, and I happily claim the bottom right corner.




-Frem



Haha... enough room in that corner for two? I'd probably be a little closer to center... but.... yanno?

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Tuesday, May 15, 2012 3:32 PM

BYTEMITE


http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TheExtremistWasRight

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/SlidingScaleOfAntiHeroes

Type 4. Discuss.

Frem just doesn't like to be called hero because it rankles against his bad boy style. :P

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Tuesday, May 15, 2012 5:31 PM

FREMDFIRMA



Too bad you missed the WoT Anniversary bash, Anthony - they had 5x first battle XP, and a free 24hours of Premium for everyone, and I got to run the whole garage TWICE, 5X plus Premium, since the rollover happened while I was playing, oh yessss...
AND they had the KV13 on sale for half price, so I did get it, and the French B1 to complement my Panzer B2, but they gimped the main guns penetration, bleh.

Got a damn bloody FLEET in that garage now, but I still have much love for the deadly little Leichtracktor, enough that I threw some leftover gold into a permanant paintjob for it.


As for the Chaotic notion of valuing the ABILITY to do Evil, lemme put it this way - someone fucks with me, and they do so in a way that offends *MY* morality, but happens to be completely legal, me, I wanna break their fuckin kneecaps with a tire iron, which is illegal and perhaps a bit immoral, but the ABILITY to do it, even if I choose not to, you see ?
What is Legal and what is Moral, to me they're generally and usually goin in opposite directions, therefore I have little respect for "The Law" and a social order built upon it.


http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TheExtremistWasRight
That page, and it's quote, cannot be done proper justice without the background image for it.
http://www.girlgeniusonline.com/comic.php?date=20040806

I *LIKE* Klaus, his entire Pax Transylvania is all about letting people do as they will, so long as they do NOT attempt to dominate or conquer others, and if you try, he curbstomps your ass.
(or worse, he sends Bang!)
http://girlgenius.wikia.com/wiki/Pax_Transylvania
Quote:

Don't make me come over there!

"I swear, it's like running a kindergarten!"

And his son DEFINATELY has some hereditary quality goin on there.
http://www.girlgeniusonline.com/comic.php?date=20071203
(This is right after singlehandedly smacking down an army via re-directed lightning)

I do take your point though, but bear in mind sometimes when wholly outnumbered and surrounded by useful idiots cheering for the jackboots, sometimes the only edge you got is sheer rabidity.
And THAT... that I got, yeah.
Uncommon to see here, and I don't mean in a necessarily physical way, but there's some poor kid in Utah who has no idea and never will that some demented guardian angel swooped out of the darkness and left a conspiracy against her in tatters blowing in the wind - I don't do things by half measure, that's a fact.

-Frem

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Tuesday, May 15, 2012 5:45 PM

BYTEMITE


Quote:

I do take your point though, but bear in mind sometimes when wholly outnumbered and surrounded by useful idiots cheering for the jackboots, sometimes the only edge you got is sheer rabidity.
And THAT... that I got, yeah.



Oh yeah. I'm not as likely to work someone over with a tire iron, but I catch some people in a dark alley they'll get one of my sucker punches to their kidneys. If they corner ME, someone's not getting out of that alive.

Quote:

I don't do things by half measure, that's a fact.


No, you don't. I have a lot to learn.

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Tuesday, May 15, 2012 6:18 PM

6IXSTRINGJACK


Come on Frem.....

You're really just a big-ol cuddly teddy bear deep down

I know you got claws, and you're not afraid to use them, but even when you use them last minute to help yourself, I think you're doing it in the long run because "WTF else would help the kids that you do if they "got" you?

Keep doing that Voo-doo that You-doo..... man....

I'm starting to think that I might be doing you (and in an extention the people you help) a disservice by trying to convince you otherwise.

As evil as you think you are though, I'll never view you that way.

~6


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Tuesday, May 15, 2012 6:37 PM

BYTEMITE


True. Were I in his position, I'd be frustrated that people don't listen to my warnings.

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Wednesday, May 16, 2012 2:45 PM

RIONAEIRE

Beir bua agus beannacht


Hi Frem, I don't think you're all that evil, you do stuff to help people, so you can't be all that bad in comparison to the rest of the people in the world. You're not perfect, but none of us are and people do what they have to do in life.

I assume you're my pal until you let me know otherwise.

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya.

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Wednesday, May 16, 2012 5:46 PM

6IXSTRINGJACK


Quote:

Originally posted by BYTEMITE:
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/SlidingScaleOfAntiHeroes



If I were to give myself a label based off of this, I'd be Type IV: Vicious Anti-Hero

Quote:

This type of Anti-Hero will recurrently be extremely vicious. In some cases they might simply live in a very Crapsack World setting, and could have been a "Disney Anti-Hero" in a more idyllic setting. Any heroic character who is Dangerously Genre Savvy is likely to be this type. There's also the Hero with an F in Good. There is some chance that a Type IV may see the error in their ways, get rid of the bloodthirst, and change into a straight hero over the course of the story, but don't hold your breath; a more likely scenario is that they'll remain an Anti-Hero and retain many of their flaws, but shift up the scale to a more unambiguously good Type III, or in rare cases type II.

Note that there is also a separate flavour of this category, which trades the heroic objectives for somewhat nicer methods, or at least more redeeming qualities. Their objectives tend to be neutral to leaning somewhat unsavoury (but never outright evil), balanced by having lines they will not cross, soft spots for their friends and loved ones etc., as well as often being on the good guys' side, even if only by chance or because it turns the greatest profit. * Essentially, whereas the former flavour of Type IV is more or less a more (too) extreme Type III, this is a Type V with fewer vices and more virtues. That doesn't mean they can't become a Type III, or even a Type II, however, if they decide they like the good guys enough to join them whole-heartedly; however, it does mean that they're also prone to falling to a Type V if the good points start to lose out to their bad points.

Pay Evil unto Evil is a defining trope for this category. See also Unscrupulous Hero, Nineties Anti-Hero, and Byronic Hero. Particularly cynical portrayals of the Lovable Rogue tend to be the latter variety.




But that's only if I actually FULLY acted on my tenancies like Frem does....

By extension, I can cite many examples of "suggesting" that others, mostly at previous jobs, do certain things to make things better. Usually, I choose to remain behind the scenes and let others happily do the dirty work like lemmings.

In many regards, I'm not as resourceful as Frem, and the few times I've actually stuck my head out it got chopped off and I was left running around like a headless chicken for far too long afterward. Being the protagonist/antagonist is not the role I was made for.

At the same time though, I can be VERY convincing in real life, and more often than not my suggestions to co-workers have lead to better working conditions to all of us.

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Wednesday, May 16, 2012 8:06 PM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Hello,

I have no eloquent moral identity for myself. I generally blunder about incompetently, often fearfully, and try to do more good than bad.

--Anthony


Note to Self:
Raptor - women who want to control their reproductive processes are sluts.
Wulf - Niki is a stupid fucking bitch who should hurry up and die.
Never forget what these men are.
“The stupid neither forgive nor forget; the naive forgive and forget; the wise forgive but do not forget.” -Thomas Szasz

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Thursday, May 17, 2012 8:39 AM

FREMDFIRMA


Quote:

Originally posted by ANTHONYT:
I generally blunder about incompetently, often fearfully, and try to do more good than bad.


Sounds like your tank driving!

Just kiddin mind, but really, it's your wife that scares me!

-F

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Thursday, May 17, 2012 10:23 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Hello,

You should see the fire light her eyes as she drives headlong into a monstrous adversary three times her size. I think they can feel the gleeful malice straight through the keyboard.

Some of the people I love most in this world... I'm glad they're on my side.

--Anthony


Note to Self:
Raptor - women who want to control their reproductive processes are sluts.
Wulf - Niki is a stupid fucking bitch who should hurry up and die.
Never forget what these men are.
“The stupid neither forgive nor forget; the naive forgive and forget; the wise forgive but do not forget.” -Thomas Szasz

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Thursday, May 17, 2012 10:46 AM

STORYMARK


This seemed appropo to the thread:

http://www.cracked.com/blog/5-reasons-diablo-iii-represents-gamings-an
noying-future
/

"Goram it kid, let's frak this thing and go home! Engage!"

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