REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

Weapon Carrier Causes - Then Stops - Crime.

POSTED BY: KWICKO
UPDATED: Thursday, May 10, 2012 19:39
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Thursday, May 3, 2012 2:51 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)





http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/05/03/us-usa-arizona-shooting-idUS
BRE8420RD20120503


Quote:

A prominent border militia leader and reputed neo-Nazi is believed to have shot and killed four people before turning a gun on himself following a domestic dispute at a home in a Phoenix suburb, police said on Thursday.

Police believe Jason Todd "J.T." Ready opened fire at a house in Gilbert on Wednesday, killing his girlfriend, her daughter, the daughter's boyfriend and their toddler daughter, then shot himself, Gilbert Police Sergeant Bill Balafas said.

Ready, 39, founded the U.S. Border Guard, a private-citizen militia in Arizona. He said in a posting on the group's website: "We are under attack at this very moment but not by invading troops (yet) or communistic threat ... . What or who is it you ask? Just look around your neighborhoods and your schools. Look at the violence on T.V. Look at the border."

Ready had long-held ties to neo-Nazi groups in the United States, the Anti-Defamation League and the Southern Poverty Law Center said on their websites.

Police identified the dead as Lisa Lynn Mederos, 47, who they said was Ready's girlfriend; Amber Nieve Mederos, 23; Jim Franklin Hiott, 24; and 15-month-old Lily Lynn Mederos, who was still alive at the scene but later died in a hospital.

Police found the child and the bodies of two of the adults inside the home and those of the other adults outside.

"We feel safe to say that this was a domestic violence issue. There was an argument and this is purely a domestic situation," Balafas said.

At the time of the shooting, a female witness was in the home. Balafas said "she heard arguing, she heard gunshots (and) came through a back bedroom and located the bodies."

Officers recovered two handguns and a shotgun from the scene. Balafas had said late on Wednesday that police had been unable to search the house after an unknown liquid was found in two 55-gallon (208-litre) drums outside the house.

The FBI and the Joint Terrorism Task Force had joined the investigation after "military grade munitions and ordnance" were found at the crime scene, Balafas said.

Amber Mederos worked at a nearby Wendy's restaurant, and was reported to be in the process of moving out of her mother's home because of tensions with Ready, who also lived there.

Her final posting on Facebook on Tuesday evening read: "Time to get the drama out of (my) life and make a better life for me my daughter and my love."

A profile of Ready by the nonprofit Southern Poverty Law Center said he had attended neo-Nazi gatherings in Nebraska and Phoenix, and railed against Jews and "Negroid immigration" in white nationalist online forums.

He also advocated deadly force to stop Mexicans from crossing into the United States illegally, and favored laying a minefield along the U.S. border, the center said.





Granted, he didn't stop the crime until everyone else there was dead, at which time he stopped the crime by killing himself...


He was a militia member, a neo-Nazi, a hard-right ideologue, and a firm believer in "just one more gun" solving every problem.

Sound like anyone familiar?

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Thursday, May 3, 2012 3:30 PM

FREMDFIRMA



Okay, firstoff - there's treating this like some kind of mortal scourge and ramping up the booga-booga.

Military Grade hardware, sure - what, a box of 5.56mm ammo ?
Unknown Liquid (being yanno, obviously #2 fuel oil) - right up there with "suspicious white substance" found in the kitchen, in a bag labelled flour, right ?
*shaking head*

And the ADL and SPLC are in their own way, every bit as radical, as dangerous, as the goddamn NeoNazis, minor quibbles in theology, ZERO difference in methodology.

This... this is a thug, and a punk, with a gun, a common fucking murderer, not some Emanuel Goldstein of international terrorism, and to glorify it as such by accident or design is apalling and an insult to his victims, who NONE of the folks whipping up the booga booga give a single fuck about cause they'd probably be happier if the crime was even more gruesome.

-Frem

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Friday, May 4, 2012 2:42 AM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up


Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:
He was a militia member, a neo-Nazi, a hard-right ideologue, and a firm believer in "just one more gun" solving every problem.

Sound like anyone familiar?



Sounds like domestic violence. Anyone we know here losing their partner and can't deal with it, or think someone's cheating on them?

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Friday, May 4, 2012 6:34 AM

BYTEMITE


Quote:

Sounds like domestic violence. Anyone we know here losing their partner and can't deal with it, or think someone's cheating on them?


...????

I'm not sure what that's supposed to mean. Are you suggesting there are people here you think would commit a murder suicide like this?

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Friday, May 4, 2012 10:48 AM

CAVETROLL


Quote:

Originally posted by BYTEMITE:
Quote:

Sounds like domestic violence. Anyone we know here losing their partner and can't deal with it, or think someone's cheating on them?


...????

I'm not sure what that's supposed to mean. Are you suggesting there are people here you think would commit a murder suicide like this?



Hey, if it's good enough for Kwicko to point fingers at folks on this board, why shouldn't Geezer have some fun?

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Friday, May 4, 2012 11:25 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by CaveTroll:
Quote:

Originally posted by BYTEMITE:
Quote:

Sounds like domestic violence. Anyone we know here losing their partner and can't deal with it, or think someone's cheating on them?


...????

I'm not sure what that's supposed to mean. Are you suggesting there are people here you think would commit a murder suicide like this?



Hey, if it's good enough for Kwicko to point fingers at folks on this board, why shouldn't Geezer have some fun?




Yeah, because you'd NEVER do anything like that. Right?







"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence [sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero, Real World Event Discussions

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Friday, May 4, 2012 11:26 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Aaaaaannnnnd yet another loverly man-loves-gun story from Arizona:

http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2012/05/04/former-guns-ammo-editor-charged-
in-arizona-slaying
/

Quote:

The former editor of Guns & Ammo magazine was accused of murdering a friend with a gun and ammo in Golden Valley, Arizona on Wednesday.

Mohave County sheriff’s charged 53-year-old Richard Erick Venola with second-degree murder for the killing 39-year-old James Patrick O’Neill, who was found dead at the scene.

Sheriff department spokeswoman Trish Carter told the Las Vegas Review-Journal that Venola shot O’Neill in the chest with a “high-caliber” rifle and at least three weapons were removed from the scene. O’Neill was visiting the former Guns & Ammo editor’s house at the time.


Detective Larry Matthews wrote in his report that Venola seemed to be intoxicated by the time he talked to officers. Neighbors told deputies that the the suspect was having “heavy words” with O’Neill.

“Mr. Venola came over to the neighbors carrying a rifle and stated he just killed a man,” according to the report. “Mr. Venola acknowledged he killed the man, but didn’t say why.”

According to the Guns & Ammo website, Venola became the 12th editor of the magazine in 2007. He had served as the associate editor of RifleShooter magazine since 2004 after being honorably discharged from the Marine Corps in 1996.

After President Barack Obama took office in 2009, Venola used his position as editor to warn readers that they should join his “largest business competitor,” the National Rifle Association (NRA), or “those in the new administration who drool at the chance of neutering the Second Amendment will become emboldened.”

Guns & Ammo spokeswoman Amy Sorrells told the Journal-Review that the former editor continued contribute as a writer. The magazine has also said that his 2010 departure as editor was “amicable.”

Venola was booked at Mohave County Jail. Bond was set at $100,000 by Justice of the Peace Rick Lambert.





"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence [sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero, Real World Event Discussions

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Friday, May 4, 2012 12:56 PM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up


Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:
Aaaaaannnnnd yet another loverly man-loves-gun story from Arizona:



Is this a cry for help, Mike? If you want to get rid of your guns, I'll take them.

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Friday, May 4, 2012 1:09 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by Geezer:
Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:
Aaaaaannnnnd yet another loverly man-loves-gun story from Arizona:



Is this a cry for help, Mike? If you want to get rid of your guns, I'll take them.




It's more a tongue-in-cheek response to all the "Man with gun stops crime" posts that seem to be popping up. Sometimes the guy with the gun ISN'T the hero; sometimes he's just a douche canoe with a hatful of hate and more mental bacon than his pan can handle.



"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence [sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero, Real World Event Discussions

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Saturday, May 5, 2012 3:01 AM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up


Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:
It's more a tongue-in-cheek response to all the "Man with gun stops crime" posts that seem to be popping up. Sometimes the guy with the gun ISN'T the hero; sometimes he's just a douche canoe with a hatful of hate and more mental bacon than his pan can handle.




You have guns. Are you "a douche canoe with a hatful of hate and more mental bacon than his pan can handle"?

You asked if the shooter reminded us of anyone. I remember someone who self-identified as "officially the angriest man on the internet". Should we be worried about someone with that much anger...and guns too?


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Saturday, May 5, 2012 5:32 AM

BYTEMITE


I think that on Kwicko's side of it that might be a joke.

I'm fairly angry most of the time, but I prefer my fists and bludgeoning weapons to guns, mostly because I have no common sense and I'm not ABOUT to start having it in a fight.

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Saturday, May 5, 2012 10:55 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


I might be a douche canoe with a gun and a hate-on, or I might just be like The Dude, only with guns. I didn't realize that your mind isn't capable of putting things into more categories than "either-or".

I say sometimes the guy with the gun isn't the hero. Sometimes he's just an asshole. Doesn't mean EVERYONE with guns is an asshole with a hard-on for killing. It's not like if it's not this, it has to be that. It can be this, or that, or a multitude of other things.

Also, when I say I'm the angriest man on the internet, I mean that *ON THE INTERNET* I'm the angriest man around. In real life, I'm quite Zen and unperturbed. My boss gets upset with me because I don't get more upset.



"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence [sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero, Real World Event Discussions

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Monday, May 7, 2012 4:36 PM

RIONAEIRE

Beir bua agus beannacht


Sad stories.

I assume you're my pal until you let me know otherwise.

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya.

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Tuesday, May 8, 2012 2:07 AM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up


Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:
Also, when I say I'm the angriest man on the internet, I mean that *ON THE INTERNET* I'm the angriest man around. In real life, I'm quite Zen and unperturbed. My boss gets upset with me because I don't get more upset.



Glad we can provide you with therapy. The bill's in the mail.

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Tuesday, May 8, 2012 3:18 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by Geezer:
Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:
Also, when I say I'm the angriest man on the internet, I mean that *ON THE INTERNET* I'm the angriest man around. In real life, I'm quite Zen and unperturbed. My boss gets upset with me because I don't get more upset.



Glad we can provide you with therapy. The bill's in the mail.




So's the check. ;)



"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence [sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero, Real World Event Discussions

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Tuesday, May 8, 2012 3:39 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


I don't see this as any more than the usual people snapping, guns or not. The first guy seems to have been a "picnic short of a sandwich (or two!) in the first place; obviously having guns doesn't make one a killer, so I think it's a failed snark in that respect. Other than that, it's just the same kind of sad stuff that happens every day in America. I certainly agree we have too MANY guns and they're too easily available--especially the really bad ones and the really bad ammo--but I don't see that changing in this country...ever.

It is a problem that "gun bunnies" see it only one way; ANY argument against ANY gun or ammo is always seen as people wanting to do away with them ALL; despite trying to get through to them that there's a middle ground, that seems to be what their brains are locked into hearing. Until and unless you can actually HAVE a sane conversation about the matter, nothing will ever change. The NRA almost has the power of a god.



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Tuesday, May 8, 2012 6:57 AM

FREMDFIRMA



Well, thing is Niki - wasn't the gun bunnies who started that all-or-nothing crap.

Most of the other side is not only unwilling to compromise, it happens to be demonstrated and fully admitted fact that they see every restriction, every infringement, as one step closer to their intended goal of a total ban... any discussion of increasing safety, accountability or training has fallen on deaf ears, and they've proven, and again, blatantly admitted it - they get folks into office with the INTENTION of defying, subverting or manipulating the US Constitution in a fashion I think qualifies as criminal conspiracy under the RICO act - if you wanna change the Constitution you submit an Amendment, you don't ignore it, distort it, or play word games, you know ?

And because of that, and the demonstrated conduct of the Federal Government in this matter, as well as historical observations about the tide of massacre that follows disarmament, no one in their right mind believes the Federales can be trusted with such control - frankly I wouldn't trust em with a freezypop alone but admittedly I am a bit extreme about that.

Anyhows, my notion of requiring a certain level of training as a condition of sale in exchange for lawsuit indemnity never makes an ounce of traction, not because I am unwilling to compromise, but because the other side isn't - in fact I don't think the NRA is rabid ENOUGH.

You want a damn good example of the same notion on a different topic ?

Womens rights and the all-out GOP/Religious Right assault upon them.
Now how would YOU feel being told you should give them some ground, KNOWING what their intentions are ?

Like many other things - it wasn't me that put it in a position where it's no longer open to negotiation, to the point where it's them or me...
But once it reaches that tipping point, I damn sure intent it ain't gonna be them.

Of course what rooks me is folks who stand up for the right to bear arms but are all okay with other rights being pissed all over, fuck that noise, stand UP, or stand ASIDE - this pick and choose divide and conquer shit is pathetic.

Human Rights.
Civil Rights.
Moral Rights.
Constitutional Rights.

NOT ONE FUCKING INCH, EVER.
Whether it be a war on women, guns, drugs, terrorism or what have you, I will never, EVER back down, back up, or hand someone elses rights over no matter how ignoble they might be - nor will I accept others doing so.

-Frem

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Wednesday, May 9, 2012 4:32 PM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Quote:

It's more a tongue-in-cheek response to all the "Man with gun stops crime" posts that seem to be popping up.


Hello,

It wasn't so very long ago that someone here asserted that they'd never heard of a gun carrier stopping a killing.

Possibly this is the reason why 'man with gun stops crime' posts have become popular.

I lament it when a yippee-ki-yay attitude is idolized, but I also lament the attitude that people shouldn't be trusted to have arms. Some people forget that a weapon can occasionally prove useful in defending yourself- even if you never actually have to use it.

--Anthony




Note to Self:
Raptor - women who want to control their reproductive processes are sluts.
Wulf - Niki is a stupid fucking bitch who should hurry up and die.
Never forget what these men are.
“The stupid neither forgive nor forget; the naive forgive and forget; the wise forgive but do not forget.” -Thomas Szasz

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Thursday, May 10, 2012 2:58 PM

OONJERAH


I am sure you discussed this when it happened.

Dec. 4, 2008 - Criminal Charges in Death of Boy Who Shot Himself at Gun Show =>
http://current.com/14kau4c

A police chief and a Massachusetts gun club have been indicted for involuntary
manslaughter in the death of an 8-year-old boy who accidentally shot himself
with a Uzi at an October gun expo in Massachusetts.

Pelham Police Chief Edward Fleury owns COP Firearms & Training, which sponsored
the Machine Gun Shoot and Firearms Expo at the Westfield Sportsman's Club, where
8-year-old Christopher Bizilj accidentally shot himself in the head in October
after losing control of the 9 mm Micro Uzi submachine gun.

There are so many people dead by gun who should not be.
Had a tantrum: murder-suicide, PTSD, drunkeness, rotten judgement, poor impulse
control, accident, etc.

Something ought to be done but what?
Make getting a license to own a gun harder than getting a license to drive a car?

That would be my best idea. Except that gun licenses would be given out by the
government . . . and in the direction we are going, I trust the government same as
I do the banks & used car salesmen.

How can we preserve the 2nd amendment and still prevent death by gun foolishness?


. . . . .The worst and most frequent consequence of paranoia is that it's self-fulfilling.


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Thursday, May 10, 2012 4:07 PM

FREMDFIRMA



That particular case was accidental, and I dispute the notion that charges are warranted cause there was no willful negligence and frankly the father now has to live with the death of his son, isn't that enough ?

They were at a proper range, with range lanes, oversight and proper hearing and eye protection, and the father was letting the son fire a mini-uzi, but had severely underestimated the boys ability to handle the recoil, which is a COMMON mistake, it just doesn't usually wind up in tragedy - in this case however the propensity of the mini-uzi to recoil straight back and up instead of off high and to the right like most auto-weapons resulted in what I consider to be a tragic accident.

While there's possibly some fault, that ain't a lot different than say, letting your young son on his learners drive your pretty sports car, and winding up in a fatal wreck cause you gave him too much car to handle - adding charges is just sheer meanness when you consider that they've already paid a price that cannot be undone, and have to live with it.

As an aside, that's the REASON you'll see someone like me clamp their offhand over the top of a Mac10, Mac11 or Uzi, before firing it, because they DO recoil hard, and tend to bounce straight back at you.

-Frem

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Thursday, May 10, 2012 4:27 PM

FREMDFIRMA


Quote:

Something ought to be done but what?
Make getting a license to own a gun harder than getting a license to drive a car?


I am not wholly opposed to the concept - but it's proven fact (See Also: Jim March) that the Government cannot be trusted with this and will use that as an excuse to stonewall on the licensing or simply refuse to offer it - thus the debate versus May-Issue/Shall-Issue, and even then up here in Flint it took a personal and threatening visitation from the Governor personally (Jennifer Granholm, former States Attorney and might I remind you, a Democrat) to force them to begrudgingly comply with the law.

My notion on it is offering manufacturers and dealers indemnity from lawsuit in exchange for requiring a certain level of competence and training - we already have the infrastructure for this in place via ubiquitous CCW classes and it would cost effectively nothing but a pittance of paperwork and oversight.

But again, no one wants to hear it cause the gunbunnies have heard the blatant rhetoric of the other side and their admitted intentions to ban all guns period, and how they see every step forward as one step closer to that intention - so as long as you got THAT factor, as long as the banners and grabbers have no interest in compromise, why the hell SHOULD the gun bunnies budge one inch ?

Hell, even asking it is like asking Women to compromise in the face of the GOP assault intended to strip them of their personhood, right to vote and legal status as human beings - do you, morally, have any RIGHT to even suggest they compromise when the other sides intentions are so well known and established ?

Quote:

How can we preserve the 2nd amendment and still prevent death by gun foolishness?

Well, I can offer this much...

I've noticed that the Democrats treat guns the way Republicans treat sex.
"Guns are bad, all bad!"
"Abstinence Only!"
And lies/misinformation by the shovel load.

That this is abject stupidity as well as complete hypocrisy is rather lost on either of em.

Either one, you START with proper education, and honesty instead of distortions and lies, and you're ahead of the game right there - but that's too much sense for a politician to handle.

-Frem

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Thursday, May 10, 2012 7:39 PM

RIONAEIRE

Beir bua agus beannacht


I, personally, feel that little ones under 10 don't need to shoot guns, but I don't think there's a way to make an official rule about it. Its just a personal opinion.

I assume you're my pal until you let me know otherwise.

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya.

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