REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

Occupy May Day begins

POSTED BY: NIKI2
UPDATED: Friday, May 4, 2012 16:08
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Tuesday, May 1, 2012 5:51 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Quote:

Occupy May Day is underway.

Occupy San Francisco got an early start on May Day, kicking off its organized protest at 8 p.m. local time on April 30.

San Francisco, once a stronghold of the dispossessed, has become a playground for the rich and a living hell for those of us who can't keep up or have no interest in capitalist relations," Bay Area protest organizers said in a statement.

Early Tuesday morning, protesters -- including Occupiers, labor unions, and community and religious organizations -- were picketing against unfair labor practices at Los Angeles International Airport, according to Occupywallst.org. LAX issued a traffic advisory, and the airport's web site said two blocks of nearby Century Boulevard were shut down in anticipation of a march by at least 1,200 union members at 3 p.m. ET.

May Day protests were also underway in Greece and Turkey. Two thousand people gathered in Syntagma Square in Athens, and another 7,000 protesters gathered outside a factory where employees haven't been paid in six months, according to their union.

Thousands of protesters in Istanbul's central Taksim Square were met with police presence.

Occupy Boardroom: Shareholders revolt

A march was planned in London, ending at Trafalgar Square, and road closures were also in the works. Three men were arrested in Exchange Square outside Liverpool Street.

In New York, Occupy Wall Street has been planning protests at bridges and tunnels, with picket lines slated to kick off at 8 a.m. at the Chase Building, the New York Times building, Sotheby's and the Manhattan's main U.S. Post Office.

"The popular media narrative is that Occupy is dead, but what we're here to show is that that's far from the truth," said Occupy Wall Street spokesman Mark Bray to CNN. "The issues that we're talking about are too important to go away."

Bray said that Occupy has united with workers' unions and immigrant rights groups, "to show that the 99% is what really drives this country."

May Day has historically been a day of protests, with workers currently marching in Moscow and Havana, and protests underway in Madrid.

This year, the Occupy movement has organized protests in 125 U.S. cities, according to Occupywallst.org. The theme is a general work strike to create "a day without the 99%:" no work, no shopping, no banking.

Planned events include New York's "Occupy Guitarmy," in which Rage Against the Machine's Tom Morello will lead musicians from midtown's Bryant Park to downtown's Union Square. In Los Angeles, protesters are planning a "4 Winds" march to descend on the city from all directions.

Protesters in Oakland, Calif., had originally planned an attempt to shut down the Golden Gate Bridge in support of a local labor union. That plan was called off on Sunday, but organizers in the San Francisco Bay Area have scheduled picket lines and many other demonstrations.

It's unclear how many people will turn out for the various events planned across the country. Organizers of the original Occupy event in September called for 20,000 people to descend on Wall Street. http://money.cnn.com/2012/05/01/news/economy/occupy-may-day/index.htm?
hpt=hp_t2

Our march starts at 2pm here in Marin. This time I'm going to try and do the march; we'll see if my back allows it.

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Tuesday, May 1, 2012 5:54 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


" Anarchists " arrested for trying to blow up a Cleveland area bridge.


Happy Occupy Day, y'all.






" We're all just folk. " - Mal

" AU, that was great, LOL!! " - Chrisisall

"The world is a dangerous place. Not because of the people who are evil; but because of the people who don't do anything about it." - Albert Einstein


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Tuesday, May 1, 2012 6:13 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Yup, the Anarchists are busy already. Fuckers, they give everything a bad name and I wish they could be stopped. Unfortunately, they are probably on the rise instead; this is what happens when you oppress the people too much. The majority try to change things peacefully, but there are always those who believe their anger and frustration entitles them to work through violence, and of course the peaceful ones get the blame.
Quote:

Authorities are warning that there's a possibility peaceful demonstrations will be disrupted by people wanting to incite mayhem.

Although protest organizers emphasized their peaceful intentions, Seattle Mayor Mike McGinn's office issued a statement last week warning of signs "other people" may show up "with the intention of using the public demonstrations as an opportunity to commit violence, damage property and disrupt peaceful free-speech activity."

McGinn's statement cited posters and graffiti "alluding to violence" as well as websites describing how protesters could hide weapons beneath signs and banners. The statement also mentioned an incendiary device that had been thrown at a Columbia City bank Thursday evening and a December Port of Seattle protest where some people threw projectiles at police.

"All I can say is Occupy Seattle has not endorsed any kind of violence," said Mark Taylor-Canfield, an Occupy Seattle spokesman. "The idea of this is to stand in solidarity with workers all around the world."

Juan Jose Bocanegra, a leader of the immigrant-rights march, said the annual May Day event has gone ahead peaceably for a dozen years.

"We're going to do our best to keep ourselves vigilant and try to move the march along and keep everybody safe," said Bocanegra, statewide coordinator for El Comité Pro Reforma Migratoria Y Justicia Social, the group organizing the march.

Bocanegra criticized the city for raising the "red flag" of possible violence and added that he's more worried about attacks by right-wing provocateurs. http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2018110592_mayday01m.h
tml?prmid=4939
, there are those, as well as police infiltrators, to worry about as well. Tough to have peaceful protests when there are organized groups who want to screw things up.

Unfortunately the Anarchists are becoming more of an organized group on their own, so they'll show up.
Just google "Anarchist" or "Anarchist May Day" and you will see they are organized, have their own websites and gatherings...there will be more of that before this is all over, and I know some of you will connect them with us--go right ahead, it changes nothing.

May Day is a long-standing international tradition, not begun by Occupy and encompassing many groups from teachers to nurses to dock workers. The current assault on labor has brought many into the movement who never were before and otherwise wouldn't be. Something has to change...if anyone thinks we WANT to spend the day walking around in the hot sun, trying to keep the Anarchists in control, waiting for police to attack, they are simply ignorant, nothing more. There are many things wrong with this country and at least we are standing up to try and change them, as well as working in local groups like ours to try and work WITH small city councils, etc. to bring about change.


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Tuesday, May 1, 2012 6:21 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


A basic truth:
Quote:

The double entendre of the day’s name is certainly not lost on the demonstrators. Sure, the calendar reads May 1st, but Occupy protesters are looking to call attention to sinking economic equality across the nation. From coast to coast, protesters are planning demonstrations as part of a “General Strike” to coincide with International Workers Day.

Immigration rights groups, labor unions and the Occupy movement are banding together Tuesday to stir up acts of civil disobedience across the country.

You know, "civil disobedience", something REAL Americans have always treasured, along with free speech, which some can't stand but which many of us still believe in.



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Tuesday, May 1, 2012 6:40 AM

BYTEMITE


Quote:

Yup, the Anarchists are busy already. Fuckers, they give everything a bad name and I wish they could be stopped.


Gee thanks. Blanket statements like that will really bring in the allies you guys need.

I'd like to point out that once again the five morons who were arrested wouldn't even have been a threat if it weren't for the FBI aiding them and just hoping someone SOMEWHERE will get around them and justify their bloated budgets.

Quote:

The informant brought in two people he said could help them get explosives. These people were actually FBI undercover agents. The group members agreed to buy tear gas and gas masks. Two weeks later, they said they wanted to buy plastic explosives.

[....]The members of this group had a strong desire to commit acts of violence but no idea how to do it. At one point, a member of the group says what they needed was "mainly bleach," because, he said, that's what land mines and hand grenades were made with during World War II.



http://usnews.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2012/05/01/11485641-5-anarchists-nab
bed-in-plot-to-blow-up-ohio-bridge


Oh my gosh, how scary. They appear to fall resolutely into the small category of anarchists who not only don't even get what the point is, but happen to also be totally weaksauce.

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Tuesday, May 1, 2012 6:48 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


I think there was a misunderstanding. The bleach was asked for so they could do some laundry. Been a long, smelly winter for some of those folks.



" We're all just folk. " - Mal

" AU, that was great, LOL!! " - Chrisisall

"The world is a dangerous place. Not because of the people who are evil; but because of the people who don't do anything about it." - Albert Einstein


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Tuesday, May 1, 2012 7:28 AM

BYTEMITE


Laundry would be hell of a lot more useful than making bombs out of it. What were they even thinking of, chlorine gas? Doesn't work that way. It wouldn't blow up the bridge, but it would make a lot of innocent people sick.

Trust me, I have no association whatsoever with those doofuses. If at all possible, I'd like to avoid the comparison.

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Tuesday, May 1, 2012 8:58 AM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up


Quote:

Originally posted by Niki2:
Yup, the Anarchists are busy already. Fuckers, they give everything a bad name and I wish they could be stopped.



Not surprisingly, they have a different view, even relating to Occupy Oakland.

Quote:

January 28 was not supposed to turn out the way it did. After Occupy Oakland failed to occupy its first two targeted buildings and had a short-lived street battle in front of the Oakland Museum, police in riot gear contained the march of nearly 1,000 in a public park. There was a dispersal order, but no means of escape. Protesters with shields attempted to push the police line, which responded with several volleys of tear gas into the crowd, still trapped. Instead of enduring the gas, the crowd pulled down chain-link fencing that separated them from the street and safety.

As marchers, both masked and bare faced, continued north, taking the street, they chanted powerfully, suddenly and without reservation:


"When Oakland is under attack, what do we do?"

"Stand up, fight back!"

As the move-in committee said Monday in a statement on January 28: "This time, the chant was not an empty one."

This principle, this fight, appears to be at the heart of recent critiques of "anarchists," "Black Bloc" and the tactics some choose to employ in political protest, especially in Oakland. Chris Hedges' "Black Bloc" takedown is only the most recent in a series of critiques bashing anarchists and "diversity of tactics" within the national Occupy movement since January 28th's fog of tear gas has dissipated. While previous criticisms came from the right or center of the political spectrum, these perspectives are arising from the left and mainly from journalists who have not been in the field to witness these tactics in action and within context.


"A lot of anarchists today who are actively involved at all levels of the occupy movement - if you want to talk about inspiration, they look to places like Greece," says Tim Simons, an organizer with Occupy Oakland.

But so does Hedges. In May of 2010, amid global financial faltering, Hedges celebrated the Greek insurrection:


"They know what to do when corporations pillage and loot their country. They know what to do when they are told their pensions, benefits and jobs have to be cut to pay corporate banks, which screwed them in the first place. Call a general strike. Riot. Shut down the city centers. Toss the bastards out. Do not be afraid of the language of class warfare - the rich versus the poor, the oligarchs versus the citizens, the capitalists versus the proletariat."

But those strikes, riots and shut-downs in America are troubling to Hedges and other Occupy Oakland critics on the left. These critics focus on property destruction - such as the tearing down of those fences on January 28 - by perceived black bloc "hooligans" as a discrediting force in the movement, even while they understand the role of focused property destruction at, say, the Boston Tea Party, or in the International Longshore and Warehouse Union's struggle against EGT in Longview, Washington.

What many activists find most troubling is not the conclusions those critics draw about tactical choices within the movement, but the lack of information they apparently have in arriving at these conclusions and a lack of interest in why those tactical choices were made in the first place.

For example, they find Hedges' conflation of political ideology and protest strategy, at its core, problematic, as well as his apparent misunderstanding of the local Oakland activist community.

Oakland's large, active, organized community of anarchists and other political radicals are just that: large; active; and, above all, organized. It is true that many are young, white and not Oakland natives, though they are residents. But many believe in community building and mutual aid. And many of those using black bloc at occupy protests are not necessarily anarchists.

Hedges "is really out of touch with anarchists today," says Simons, who dismisses John Zerzan, the anarchist ideologue Hedges points to as the Black Bloc forefather. "Anarchists were very important in creating Occupy Oakland. They were in some ways the initial glue that held the camp together" - the one Hedges applauds as having such "broad appeal" that cities were forced to shut them down using oppressive means. "Very quickly Occupy Oakland became much more than that, but you wouldn't have Occupy Oakland if it wasn't for those anarchists," says Simons.

The 99 percent is a poor class analysis, especially for troubled Oakland, but it does point to the broad coalition necessary to create change in America today. "In this situation, even to make the most modest gains, you have to bring about a force that's nearly a revolutionary force," says Simons. "We have to show that we can fully disrupt the system, even if we just want reforms."

Of course, many within Occupy Oakland do not just want reforms - they want revolution, insurrection, overthrow and smash. But there has been only one event where that group came out in a bloc and utilized the tactics that so trouble Hedges and other Occupy Oakland critics on the left and it happened in the middle of what is arguably still seen as one of the movement's greatest victories: the General Strike.

On November 2, an autonomously organized anti-capitalist black bloc marched through Oakland, destroying windows and other property at banks and, allegedly, strike-busting businesses such as Whole Foods.

The tactic, which emerged in the early 1980s in Germany among autonomist protesters defending squatters rights and anti-nuclear activism, hit America hard in the anti-globalization demonstrations of the late '90s, especially in the "Battle of Seattle," which resulted in heavy damage of multinational retail property in downtown. That November 2 march was arguably one of the most focused showings of stateside black bloc in a decade. That march resulted in the Oakland police calling in mutual aid, but it did not result in a discrediting of the national movement; tens of thousands still marched on the Port of Oakland hours later.



http://www.indybay.org/newsitems/2012/02/10/18707044.php

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Tuesday, May 1, 2012 9:36 AM

BYTEMITE


Well, there are definitely some principles that Occupy are on about that I agree with and that I think are on the same grounds as anarchism, but they miss other elements that would be necessary to call them anarchists in general. Then again there's things I both agree and disagree with the tea party about.

The problem here is that people are confusing anarchism with simple civil disobedience, or with more destructive tactics, but these aren't all the same thing. Anarchism is not civil disobedience is not terrorism. It's also important to draw a distinction between anarchism and socialism/communism - some of the things the posted article quoted as anarchist views sounded more Marxist than anarchist, like the mention of the proletariat.

Which strikes me as kinda ironic, because well meaning as the Occupy crowd is I have serious doubts that there's a big blue collar (proletariat) representation among them. I think there's a lot of college students and a lot of people like Niki who are carrying forward ideas from the 1960s revolutions. Not that they aren't downtrodden too, but proletariat is the wrong word to use.

As for the bunch that knocked out the windows, from the pictures I saw of them, I still think they were probably cops. Too shiny black dress shoes, too 'roided out to be anarchist college kids.

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Tuesday, May 1, 2012 9:46 AM

HERO


Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:
" Anarchists " arrested for trying to blow up a Cleveland area bridge.


Five Occupy Terrorists tried to blow up a major highway bridge.

They bought plastic explosives, went onto the bridge, set up their device, left the bridge, detonated the device and were arrested. The FBI sold then fake explosives.

H

Hero...must be right on all of this. ALL of the rest of us are wrong. Chrisisall, 2012

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Tuesday, May 1, 2012 10:05 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by Hero:
Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:
" Anarchists " arrested for trying to blow up a Cleveland area bridge.


Five Occupy Terrorists tried to blow up a major highway bridge.

They bought plastic explosives, went onto the bridge, set up their device, left the bridge, detonated the device and were arrested. The FBI sold then fake explosives.

H

Hero...must be right on all of this. ALL of the rest of us are wrong. Chrisisall, 2012



I find it amazing that the 1st news reports actually had to say that there were no ties w/ international terrorism w/ these guys. They were occupiers, by all accounts. One was the founder of Occupy Cleveland.

And yet, they're being called lone anarchists.

Quote:


CLEVELAND - Occupy Cleveland canceled a scheduled rally Tuesday after a group of men connected to the organization were arrested by the FBI.

A member of Occupy Cleveland said he saw all five suspects at a meeting for the organization Sunday. He said he considered three of them friends and they never talked about anything violent with him.

Three of the suspects had references to Occupy Cleveland on what appeared to be their Facebook pages. Brandon Baxter , Joshua Stafford and Tony Hayne all said on Facebook that they worked at #OccupyCleveland and live in Cleveland, Ohio

http://www.newsnet5.com/dpp/news/local_news/cleveland_metro/Occupy-Cle
veland-cancels-May-Day-rally-says-bomb-suspects-involved-with-movement#ixzz1teP3BikX






" We're all just folk. " - Mal

" AU, that was great, LOL!! " - Chrisisall

"The world is a dangerous place. Not because of the people who are evil; but because of the people who don't do anything about it." - Albert Einstein

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Tuesday, May 1, 2012 10:40 AM

HERO


Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:
And yet, they're being called lone anarchists.


Anarchists can be anything. If they do good, they are part of the movement, when they do bad...they are alone.

These guys were Occupy Terrorists. We need to call them so we don't mix them up with the Occupy Protestors. Lots of folks love camping and group chanting...but not everybody is going to wave jazz hands for the guy that says 'lets go blow up the bridge".

H

Hero...must be right on all of this. ALL of the rest of us are wrong. Chrisisall, 2012

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Tuesday, May 1, 2012 11:48 AM

BYTEMITE


...I can't tell if you're being sarcastic.

Either way, count me impressed.

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Tuesday, May 1, 2012 12:53 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


So if a Tea Party member or organizer makes a threat of violence against, say, the President of the United States, he speaks for all Tea Party members?

Is that what I'm reading here?



"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence [sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero, Real World Event Discussions

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Tuesday, May 1, 2012 4:05 PM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up


nah.

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Tuesday, May 1, 2012 4:44 PM

CAVETROLL


I'm remembering the 90-100 million people killed by communist regimes during the 20th century.

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Tuesday, May 1, 2012 4:47 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by CaveTroll:
I'm remembering the 90-100 million people killed by communist regimes during the 20th century.



You are ? What were their names ?

Ready... go !



" We're all just folk. " - Mal

" AU, that was great, LOL!! " - Chrisisall

"The world is a dangerous place. Not because of the people who are evil; but because of the people who don't do anything about it." - Albert Einstein


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Tuesday, May 1, 2012 5:02 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by CaveTroll:
I'm remembering the 90-100 million people killed by communist regimes during the 20th century.




How many killed by capitalist regimes in that time frame?



"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence [sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero, Real World Event Discussions

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Tuesday, May 1, 2012 5:04 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:
So if a Tea Party member or organizer makes a threat of violence against, say, the President of the United States, he speaks for all Tea Party members?

Is that what I'm reading here?



Quote:

Originally posted by Geezer:
nah.




Well, I'm just shocked to find that you would never hold your beloved tea-baggers to the same standard you hold Occupy folks. Shocked, I tells ya!


(That was sarcasm, in case you're brain-addled and can't tell.)



"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence [sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero, Real World Event Discussions

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Wednesday, May 2, 2012 1:34 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!



So, let's review. A failed attempt to blow up a bridge. A few busted windows. Some rioting, and arrests. Hardly a dent was put into evil Capitalism. The hard left came out and showed everyone what they're made of, and for the most part, folks didn't care. I suppose there were a few hot spots, but hardly the turn out the Occupy folks expected. The country didn't grind to a halt.


But where violence and destruction did crop up...where were the Democrat leaders ?

They're the ones who side w/ this crowd... why weren't they out there denouncing the vandalism ?

Protesters hit streets for May Day rallies; violence flares in Oakland, Seattle

http://usnews.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2012/05/01/11485652-protesters-hit-s
treets-for-may-day-rallies-violence-flares-in-oakland-seattle?lite




http://www.kirotv.com/videos/news/raw-black-clad-protesters-smash-stor
e-windows/vG6hK
/


God bless them!




God bless them, right Nancy ?





" We're all just folk. " - Mal

" AU, that was great, LOL!! " - Chrisisall

"The world is a dangerous place. Not because of the people who are evil; but because of the people who don't do anything about it." - Albert Einstein

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Wednesday, May 2, 2012 1:56 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


So nothing much happened, and you're mad that Democrats aren't making a bigger deal out of nothing much happening?


Must be a day that ends in "Y"...



"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence [sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero, Real World Event Discussions

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Wednesday, May 2, 2012 2:12 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Nancy is moved to tears at the hateful rhetoric, coming from the TEA party rallies, but smashing of windows and trying to blow up bridges ?

God bless the Occupy kids! They're focused, spontaneous and they're going to be effective! .





" We're all just folk. " - Mal

" AU, that was great, LOL!! " - Chrisisall

"The world is a dangerous place. Not because of the people who are evil; but because of the people who don't do anything about it." - Albert Einstein


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Wednesday, May 2, 2012 2:59 AM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up


Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:
Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:
So if a Tea Party member or organizer makes a threat of violence against, say, the President of the United States, he speaks for all Tea Party members?

Is that what I'm reading here?



Quote:

Originally posted by Geezer:
nah.




Well, I'm just shocked to find that you would never hold your beloved tea-baggers to the same standard you hold Occupy folks. Shocked, I tells ya!


(That was sarcasm, in case you're brain-addled and can't tell.)



"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence [sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero, Real World Event Discussions



Actually, the "nah" was me deciding not to respond after all, but take it as you will.

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Wednesday, May 2, 2012 1:57 PM

6IXSTRINGJACK


It's good that people without jobs are going out and doing something with their time instead of staying at home and playing video games or watching cable TV or other habits that are subsidized fully by the Government they're trying to fight against.

I'm glad I don't have the time now. Too busy improving things I can actually do something about.

Now that things are wrapping up here, and this house is actually close to being a livable home in all regards, I suppose I could go out and hold a sign and tell people to honk if they think our Government sucks... but my unemployment benefits ran out back in August and I'm too "rich" and too "single, without kids" to get any free money since then, so I have to actually work for a living.

LOL... it doesn't matter that 90% of my "income" this year has been withdrawls from my IRA rollover, money which I had made over 2 years ago in actuality. I'm still "making" too much money for them to even consider me as a candidate for free money. How do people in Gary, IN even own a house?????

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Wednesday, May 2, 2012 3:41 PM

WULFENSTAR

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg


Wait, wait, wait....

May Day was a big old bucket of fail?

Say it ain't so!

Occutrash should be taken to the dump where they belong.

"None of you seem to understand. I'm not locked in here with you... YOU are locked in here with ME."

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Wednesday, May 2, 2012 3:52 PM

6IXSTRINGJACK


How could it not be a big fail?

"Peaceful" protests are designed to fail.

Look how they made them schumcks rally blocks away from the G8 summit even though it didn't really go down.



"organized" "anarchy" is also laughable....

although they're the only ones on the right track....




Keep up your peaceful protests while the elected and deligated jack off and spooge on your face and get free healthcare for life and pensions at 4 times the rate of what most of us make while working when they retire, on either side.....




Nevermind....

You're all still too "well to do" to even speak to....

We'll pick up this conversation again in 1 year if Obama is re-elected, or in 3 years of Romney is re-elected.

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Wednesday, May 2, 2012 4:55 PM

FREMDFIRMA



Once again, the shoes are a dead giveaway, it's like they don't even TRY.

And the policy of FBI winding up, enabling and equipping known incompetents by having some plant hold their little hand and spoon feed it to them is quite ludicrous, especially when you consider it's YOUR tax money being wasted on this bullshit to create an artificial "threat" to justify the continual expansion of a fucking police state.
Not to mention the almost inevitable disaster looming in that policy should they get scammed by someone who does know what they're doing - remind me again WHO *gave* Ramzi Youssef a bomb and an expert to wire it back in 1993 ?
Oh, yeah, the FBI.

You wanna stop terrorism, start bombing Quantico and Langley, not the middle east.

Oh and Jack - you ain't without a point there, but yanno, sooner or later that's gonna dawn on em, and they'll up the ante, at which point I reccommend taking cover.

-Frem

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Wednesday, May 2, 2012 5:32 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


May I say that I find it amusing that the guy who doesn't watch TV (looking at YOU, 6ix!) makes far more sense than the guy who can only express himself in pre-canned video clips? (looking at YOU, WULF)

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Thursday, May 3, 2012 1:58 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


The better "protest" for Occupy would be to form a mass "protest" in the form of a food drive for the homeless. Get a thousand or more Occupiers, head to the monied neighborhoods, and go door to door asking for food and money donations to help the poor.

Make a political statement with a non-political act. Any way you slice it, you get good press.

Worst case, the stormtroopers amass to keep you out of the pristine neighborhoods, in which case they look like they're taking orders from the 1% to keep the 99% down. Best case, you get some good press for doing a good deed, and your cause gets positive coverage in the media and you win a few converts.





"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence [sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero, Real World Event Discussions

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Thursday, May 3, 2012 2:37 AM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up


Quote:

Originally posted by FREMDFIRMA:

Once again, the shoes are a dead giveaway, it's like they don't even TRY.
-Frem



From the videos linked above, looked like many were wearing black "tactical" shoes and boots. If you were a "Black Bloc" anarchist, and wanted to have some shoes that fit the color scheme and hold up well, what would you wear, penny loafers?

Anyway, if cops wanted to do some 'false flag' damage, they'd have better sense than to use PVC pipe, which is what it appears the folks in one clip were using to try and break windows.

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Thursday, May 3, 2012 4:01 AM

BYTEMITE


Quote:

From the videos linked above, looked like many were wearing black "tactical" shoes and boots. If you were a "Black Bloc" anarchist, and wanted to have some shoes that fit the color scheme and hold up well, what would you wear, penny loafers?


"Tactical" is not particularly a description I'd associate with civilian grade supplies.

I'd have to see the video about the PVC pipe to say anything more. I'll have a look when I get home tonight.

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Thursday, May 3, 2012 4:09 AM

CAVETROLL


Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:
Quote:

Originally posted by CaveTroll:
I'm remembering the 90-100 million people killed by communist regimes during the 20th century.




How many killed by capitalist regimes in that time frame?





Since governments in capitalist countries don't control the media, I'm sure you heard about it.

But by all means, attack the message, not the facts.

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Thursday, May 3, 2012 4:59 AM

FREMDFIRMA


Quote:

Originally posted by Geezer:
From the videos linked above, looked like many were wearing black "tactical" shoes and boots. If you were a "Black Bloc" anarchist, and wanted to have some shoes that fit the color scheme and hold up well, what would you wear, penny loafers?

Anyway, if cops wanted to do some 'false flag' damage, they'd have better sense than to use PVC pipe, which is what it appears the folks in one clip were using to try and break windows.


Most Black Flagger Anarchists wear Brahmas, cause they're CHEAP - hell, I use em as work boots cause they hold up well, have a more flexible fit, and with arch support inserts you can march around all day comfortably, can't beat it for around thirty bucks on sale - as opposed to those badly-fitting "tactical" cop shoes bought as a sop to the welfare-warfare complex and mostly useful for kicking people when they're down... and if I was gonna go for THAT, I'd probably go with H&H or Cochrans.

And you don't seem to get that the notion wasn't so much to cause damage as create a nice phony spectacle, trust me, if some of the Black Blocs ever did choose to engage in that fashion, there would be utterly zero doubt about it, although I will also go ahead and mention that Anarchism as a whole has already long since learned the ineffectiveness of bombing as a tactic since historically they've done more damage to THEMSELVES than anyone else that way, and collective punishment being an icon of tyranny makes any kind of collateral damage a serious no-no.

Those incompetent dickheads the FBI spoon-fed, they're NIHILISTS, not Anarchists, which is a different sort of thing - the only reason that label is even applied to them, or that they would self-apply it, is out of media myth-making and bullshit (quite deliberate, ever since the 1920s and those damn scummy commie anarchists wanting to actually get PAID for their labor, oh noes...) which is most generic thugs only knowledge of Anarchism to begin with, so they wind up adopting the name based on the fictional media perspective of ye olde dirty bomb throwing "anarchists" (which was a blatant lie AND a police false flag even in 1886!) and thus reinforce the idiotic cycle.

That'd be a bit like me calling the Taliban a bunch of Tea Party radicals, really.

-Frem

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Thursday, May 3, 2012 5:03 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Quote:

I noticed something in yesterday’s news coverage of the Occupy protests yesterday (May Day): Most of it was about violence, anarchists, destruction, protesters smashing windows, police making arrests… in other words, a slew of negative stories.

I follow a whole lot of news outlets and journalists on Twitter, and nearly every one of them tweeted headlines like those. Several of us were tweeting back, asking where the positive reports about the Occupiers were, because, after all, the M.O. of the original Occupy Wall Street movement was non-violent, even thoughtful and creative, demonstrations against social and economic inequality, corporate influence on government, greed, and the wealth gap between the richest 1% of Americans and 99% of the population who are struggling to make ends meet.

The only news I saw that reflected the mostly peaceful day of protest were from fellow bloggers and activists, and one from the L.A. Times.

When I opened my morning L.A. Times today, in fact, the headlines I saw were “5 in Cleveland charged with planning to blow up bridge on May Day” and Seattle May Day protest marked by vandalism, arrests.

Buried in the Cleveland story was this:
Quote:

The suspect, identified as Doug Wright, 26, described himself as an anarchist and complained about Occupy’s unwillingness to take violent action. When one of the demonstration’s organizers said the Occupiers wanted no more than peaceful civil disobedience, one member of the [anarchist] group near Wright walked away in disgust, cursing.
So, news media, where were your headlines informing readers that Occupy is a peaceful movement that is so “unwilling to take violent action” that a disgusted anarchist felt compelled to curse? http://thepoliticalcarnival.net/2012/05/02/dear-news-media-where-were-
your-headlines-about-occupy-may-day-protests-being-mostly-peaceful/
than that, which reflects my opion pretty well, and my growing hatred of the Black Bloc, I will let you righties continue with your hate fest. Have fun.



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Thursday, May 3, 2012 5:11 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Also
Quote:

In typical fashion, the Federal Bureau of Investigation revealed that five self-styled left-wing anarchists arrested late Monday for allegedly trying to blow up a bridge near Cleveland were actually shepherded through every step of the supposed plot by government agents. The FBI later claimed nobody was ever in real danger because the federal government gave the alleged “terrorists” fake bombs.

The five anti-capitalist dupes — most of them in their twenties — ostensibly sought to attack the bridge in an effort to send a message and hurt the “One Percent.” Apparently they were disillusioned with the so-called “Occupy Wall Street” movement for not being violent enough in its effort to kill what little remains of the free-market system.

"They talked about making a statement against corporate America and the government as some of the motivations for their actions," U.S. Attorney Steven Dettelbach explained when he announced the arrests. “The defendants chose the target. The defendants went to the bridge to do recon. The defendants went to a hotel room to purchase what they thought were C-4 explosives.”

The group was taken into custody on April 30. An indictment unsealed Tuesday charged them with “conspiracy” and “attempted use of explosive materials to damage property affecting interstate commerce.” A U.S. District Court Magistrate decided to jail them without a bond, at least until a hearing next week.

According to prosecutors, the five defendants allegedly planted the fake explosives provided by the FBI on the bridge late Monday. They then left the area and entered the bogus “codes” to detonate the phony “bombs” before being arrested. If convicted of the fake plot, the anarchists could face more than 20 years in prison.

Court documents cited in media reports show that the federal government first came across three of the dupes last year at a protest. The FBI then used a tax-funded “informant” — apparently a convicted felon out on probation — to infiltrate the anarchist clique and allegedly help hatch and plan fake terror attacks.

The affidavit filed in the case claimed that the alleged conspirators considered several targets including a law enforcement “fusion center” and a new casino. At least one suggested attacking neo-Nazis or a Ku Klux Klan meeting. Another potential plot they supposedly discussed involved bringing down large bank signs in Cleveland.

In the end, however — with plenty of help from the FBI — the dupes decided to go for a bridge. “Taking out a bridge in the business district would cost the ... corporate big wigs a lot of money,” 20-year-old defendant Brandon Baxter allegedly said in one the recordings cited by prosecutors, claiming that blowing it up would prevent people from going to work. He later had second thoughts about it. http://www.thenewamerican.com/usnews/crime/item/11201-fbi-dupes-may-da
y-anarchists-into-bogus-terror-plot
]



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Thursday, May 3, 2012 5:57 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Yes, Frem. Lastly, FYI, for those who are interested in the reality of the situation, and the groups and tactics which are being used against us. These tactics have been going on for a long time, and are escalating. It's not just about Occupy, as much as it is about TPTB and others who have their own agendas, and how to discredit/destroy peaceful protests in any form:
Quote:

Tension building, to divide and lead to violence, are tactics that infiltrators/agitators use to discredit us (police, critics, journalists). The links below give some examples of this (and also of infiltration in general).
Quote:

Undercover New York City police officers have conducted covert surveillance in the last 16 months of people protesting the Iraq war, bicycle riders taking part in mass rallies and even mourners at a street vigil for a cyclist killed in an accident, a series of videotapes show.

In glimpses and in glaring detail, the videotape images reveal the robust presence of disguised officers or others working with them at seven public gatherings since August 2004.

The pictures of the undercover officers were culled from an unofficial archive of civilian and police videotapes by Eileen Clancy, a forensic video analyst who is critical of the tactics. She gave the tapes to The New York Times. Based on what the individuals said, the equipment they carried and their almost immediate release after they had been arrested amid protesters or bicycle riders, The Times concluded that at least 10 officers were incognito at the events http://www.nytimes.com/2005/12/22/nyregion/22police.html?_r=1 FBI and NYPD have had help tracking protesters' moves thanks to a conservative computer security expert who gained access to one of the group's internal mailing lists, and then handed over information on the group's plans to authorities and corporations targeted by protesters. http://gawker.com/5850054/meet-the-guy-who-snitched-on-occupy-wall-str
eet-to-the-fbi-and-nypd?tag=occupy-wall-street
Caught as Agent Provocateurs/Black Bloc in Montebello

This is real folks- in Canada, our government have been using Black Bloc tactics to discredit protest movements. We need a national inquiry! Video at http://genuinewitty.wordpress.com/2012/01/31/police-caught-as-agent-pr
ovocateursblack-bloc-in-montebello/
tactics and the subversion of Occupy

As reported earlier, social media going by the name of "Occupy Los Angeles Anti Social Media" or, OLAASM and BlackBlocMedia have invaded Occupy LA in order to cause rifts between people and to try to cause the end of the Occupy Los Angeles group.

OLAASM and BlackBlocMedia are apparently part of a larger psy-ops campaign against the Occupy movement that was launched nationally a couple weeks ago. This post is about OLAASM. OLAASM has a twitter, a Facebook, and a tumblr (website). Since last writing, I have found out a lot more. OLAASM is run by several people – among them are angry young, inexperienced newbie protesters. Also among them are also people who act as if they are undercover FBI and agents from the Department of Homeland Security (DHS) trying to catch or draw in those angry protesters. By now, quite a few people know who is who.

Since the Occupy Wall Street protest began on September 17, New York security consultant Thomas Ryan has been waging a campaign to infiltrate and discredit the movement. Ryan says he's done contract work for the U.S. Army and he brags on his blog that he leads "a team called Black Cell, a team of the most-highly trained and capable physical, threat and cyber security professionals in the world." But over the past few weeks, he and his computer security buddies have been spending time covertly attending Occupy Wall Street meetings, monitoring organizers' social media accounts, and hanging out with protesters in Lower Manhattan.
.....
Because OLAASM is anonymous and nefarious and also dishonest, it is what is called “Black Hat” psy-ops. Its aim is to confuse, cause chaos, instill fear in good people, cause productive people to leave OLA, and have OLA overtaken by people professing violence and undercover police. OLAASM is trying to give OLA a bad / worse reputation with the public. It does not take very much of the OLAASM-style evil nonsense before most good people say, "I've had enough."

WHAT ARE THE GOALS OF A PSY-OP LIKE OLAASM?

To end the Occupy LA group by scaring off the members who are experienced, nonviolent, rational, productive, etc., by making them believe “the group” has taken a turn toward the violent, frightening, etc.

To turn the organization violent and non-law-abiding, which renders it ineffective, gets it mired into a “cops vs us” mentality, and gives cause for law enforcement to clamp down hard.

By turning the OLA organization to one that professes to engage in illegal, destructive behavior, the OLA group can be placed on the US Terrorism group list, which makes it illegal to donate to it, to render service to it (including service from lawyers), to belong to it. This also opens up a whole panoply of allowable covert spying techniques on the group, including secret subpoenas on social media and email accounts. http://occupylosangeles.org/?q=node/4285 one, for me, is the most articulate statement on the issue of the Black Bloc and others like them:
Quote:

The Black Bloc anarchists, who have been active on the streets in Oakland and other cities, are the cancer of the Occupy movement. The presence of Black Bloc anarchists—so named because they dress in black, obscure their faces, move as a unified mass, seek physical confrontations with police and destroy property—is a gift from heaven to the security and surveillance state. The Occupy encampments in various cities were shut down precisely because they were nonviolent. They were shut down because the state realized the potential of their broad appeal even to those within the systems of power. They were shut down because they articulated a truth about our economic and political system that cut across political and cultural lines. And they were shut down because they were places mothers and fathers with strollers felt safe.

Black Bloc adherents detest those of us and seek, quite consciously, to take away our tools of empowerment. They confuse acts of petty vandalism and a repellent cynicism with revolution. Any group that seeks to rebuild social structures, especially through nonviolent acts of civil disobedience, rather than physically destroy, becomes, in the eyes of Black Bloc anarchists, the enemy.

John Zerzan, one of the principal ideologues of the Black Bloc movement in the United States, defended “Industrial Society and Its Future,” the rambling manifesto by Theodore Kaczynski, known as the Unabomber. Solidarity becomes the hijacking or destruction of competing movements, which is exactly what the Black Bloc contingents are attempting to do with the Occupy movement.

“The Black Bloc can say they are attacking cops, but what they are really doing is destroying the Occupy movement,” the writer and environmental activist Derrick Jensen told me when I reached him by phone in California. “If their real target actually was the cops and not the Occupy movement, the Black Bloc would make their actions completely separate from Occupy, instead of effectively using these others as a human shield. Their attacks on cops are simply a means to an end, which is to destroy a movement that doesn’t fit their ideological standard.”

“Their thinking is not only nonstrategic, but actively opposed to strategy,” said Jensen, author of several books, including “The Culture of Make Believe.” “They are unwilling to think critically about whether one is acting appropriately in the moment. I have no problem with someone violating boundaries [when] that violation is the smart, appropriate thing to do. I have a huge problem with people violating boundaries for the sake of violating boundaries. It is a lot easier to pick up a rock and throw it through the nearest window than it is to organize.

Random acts of violence, looting and vandalism are justified, in the jargon of the movement, as components of “feral” or “spontaneous insurrection.” These acts, the movement argues, can never be organized. Organization, in the thinking of the movement, implies hierarchy, which must always be opposed. There can be no restraints on “feral” or “spontaneous” acts of insurrection. Whoever gets hurt gets hurt. Whatever gets destroyed gets destroyed.

There is a word for this—“criminal.”

The Black Bloc movement is infected with a deeply disturbing hypermasculinity. This hypermasculinity, I expect, is its primary appeal. It taps into the lust that lurks within us to destroy, not only things but human beings. It offers the godlike power that comes with mob violence. Marching as a uniformed mass, all dressed in black to become part of an anonymous bloc, faces covered, temporarily overcomes alienation, feelings of inadequacy, powerlessness and loneliness. It imparts to those in the mob a sense of comradeship. It permits an inchoate rage to be unleashed on any target. Pity, compassion and tenderness are banished for the intoxication of power. It is the same sickness that fuels the swarms of police who pepper-spray and beat peaceful demonstrators. It is the sickness of soldiers in war. It turns human beings into beasts.

The corporate state understands and welcomes the language of force. It can use the Black Bloc’s confrontational tactics and destruction of property to justify draconian forms of control and frighten the wider population away from supporting the Occupy movement. Once the Occupy movement is painted as a flag-burning, rock-throwing, angry mob we are finished. If we become isolated we can be crushed. The arrests last weekend in Oakland of more than 400 protesters, some of whom had thrown rocks, carried homemade shields and rolled barricades, are an indication of the scale of escalating repression and a failure to remain a unified, nonviolent opposition. Police pumped tear gas, flash-bang grenades and “less lethal” rounds into the crowds. Once protesters were in jail they were denied crucial medications, kept in overcrowded cells and pushed around.

This is a struggle to win the hearts and minds of the wider public and those within the structures of power (including the police) who are possessed of a conscience. It is not a war.

The Black Bloc’s thought-terminating cliché of “diversity of tactics” in the end opens the way for hundreds or thousands of peaceful marchers to be discredited by a handful of hooligans. The state could not be happier. It is a safe bet that among Black Bloc groups in cities such as Oakland are agents provocateurs spurring them on to more mayhem. But with or without police infiltration the Black Bloc is serving the interests of the 1 percent. These anarchists represent no one but themselves. Those in Oakland, although most are white and many are not from the city, arrogantly dismiss Oakland’s African-American leaders, who, along with other local community organizers, should be determining the forms of resistance.

The explosive rise of the Occupy Wall Street movement came when a few women, trapped behind orange mesh netting, were pepper-sprayed by NYPD Deputy Inspector Anthony Bologna. The violence and cruelty of the state were exposed. And the Occupy movement, through its steadfast refusal to respond to police provocation, resonated across the country. Losing this moral authority, this ability to show through nonviolent protest the corruption and decadence of the corporate state, would be crippling to the movement. It would reduce us to the moral degradation of our oppressors. And that is what our oppressors want.

The Black Bloc movement bears the rigidity and dogmatism of all absolutism sects. Its adherents alone possess the truth. They alone understand. They alone arrogate the right, because they are enlightened and we are not, to dismiss and ignore competing points of view as infantile and irrelevant. They hear only their own voices. They heed only their own thoughts. They believe only their own clichés. And this makes them not only deeply intolerant but stupid. http://www.commondreams.org/view/2012/02/06-3]



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Thursday, May 3, 2012 6:55 AM

BYTEMITE


Occupy has mailing lists? :/ I've been warning you about this, any organization of any size is going to have moles and infiltrators.

Just because you're an anti-authoritarian group doesn't mean you don't have to think about your own security. In fact, you all kind of have a responsibility to be careful and watch out for each other.

I've got to be critical here, that was just plain sloppy. I hope your specific occupy group doesn't have any incriminating lists of members. If you do, you need to destroy them and any copies, and give a hard look at the people making the copies and the lists.

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Thursday, May 3, 2012 7:54 AM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up


Quote:

Originally posted by FREMDFIRMA:
Most Black Flagger Anarchists wear Brahmas, cause they're CHEAP - hell, I use em as work boots cause they hold up well, have a more flexible fit, and with arch support inserts you can march around all day comfortably, can't beat it for around thirty bucks on sale - as opposed to those badly-fitting "tactical" cop shoes bought as a sop to the welfare-warfare complex and mostly useful for kicking people when they're down... and if I was gonna go for THAT, I'd probably go with H&H or Cochrans.



Not seeing the difference between black Brahmas


and black tactical boots



certainly not enough to identify in grainy video.



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Thursday, May 3, 2012 8:19 AM

BYTEMITE


Well, my first guess is you'd look for dusty wear-and-tear versus shiny immaculate condition and/or bloodstains, and go from there.

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Thursday, May 3, 2012 8:58 AM

HERO


Quote:

Originally posted by BYTEMITE:
I've got to be critical here, that was just plain sloppy. I hope your specific occupy group doesn't have any incriminating lists of members. If you do, you need to destroy them and any copies, and give a hard look at the people making the copies and the lists.


Speaking for the govt...don't worry about your lists...we already have our own.

As for the mass failure of the May Day events...its not surprising. After all the majority of the movement is made up of the folks voted least likely to succeed.

H

H

Hero...must be right on all of this. ALL of the rest of us are wrong. Chrisisall, 2012

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Thursday, May 3, 2012 1:15 PM

RIONAEIRE

Beir bua agus beannacht


You guys might remember that I've said in the past that I'm on the fence about whether its okay for the police et al to give willing terrorist types the stuff to supposedly do it, thus flushing out the people who are willing? I think I've decided I'm not okay with that. Maybe they wouldn't have done it if the materials and convenience hadn't been there. I still see the other side, the "we're ferreting them out so they don't actually hurt people" side, but I've been nudged off the fence and I'm now tentatively standing on the "That's not really okay with me" side.

On Tue. I did Alcatraz and China Town, didn't see any Occupyers. But I enjoyed learning about the Native Occupation of Alcatraz from 69 to 71, didn't have time to watch the mini viddy about it though. I'd heard about it back in college so it wasn't new to me, but a mini viddy would have been nice, we live and we die by time though.

I assume you're my pal until you let me know otherwise.

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya.

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Thursday, May 3, 2012 1:31 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by Geezer: If you were a "Black Bloc" anarchist, and wanted to have some shoes that fit the color scheme and hold up well, what would you wear, penny loafers?



So, does that mean cops were also involved in the Heaven's Gate suicide gang, and were trying to give a bad name to End Times Death Cults ?

Quote:

if cops wanted to do some 'false flag' damage, they'd have better sense than to use PVC pipe, which is what it appears the folks in one clip were using to try and break windows.


Ahh! See, that's where you have it wrong! It's BECAUSE they were using said pipe, so that they'd look all the more ridiculous. Clearly, it was an obvious smack at all REAL anarchists, by trying to make them look incompetent and useless, at pretty much anything.







" We're all just folk. " - Mal

" AU, that was great, LOL!! " - Chrisisall

"The world is a dangerous place. Not because of the people who are evil; but because of the people who don't do anything about it." - Albert Einstein


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Thursday, May 3, 2012 1:49 PM

6IXSTRINGJACK


Quote:

Originally posted by RionaEire:
You guys might remember that I've said in the past that I'm on the fence about whether its okay for the police et al to give willing terrorist types the stuff to supposedly do it, thus flushing out the people who are willing? I think I've decided I'm not okay with that. Maybe they wouldn't have done it if the materials and convenience hadn't been there. I still see the other side, the "we're ferreting them out so they don't actually hurt people" side, but I've been nudged off the fence and I'm now tentatively standing on the "That's not really okay with me" side.



I'm 100% against the practice. I'd be a hypocrite if I weren't.

I hate stories like Donnie Brasco and Training Day and the feds putting guys in and acting like buds, even getting them addicted hard core to drugs or the life, just to take somebody else down. Every drug dealer and mafia boss they take down means that many more government payroll eyes that can start focusing on YOU.

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Thursday, May 3, 2012 3:10 PM

FREMDFIRMA



It is worth a mention that the Detroit 300, local Anarchist and Advocacy groups and the like, ARE engaging in proper countermeasures, but damned if imma detail em here for the moment - save one.
NONE of Gus's people were involved or even on-site for any of the occupy-detroit stuff, they had a pre-arranged engagement elsewhere, which means each and every supposed "black bloc" person there was either a general ruffian (unlikely, in that being the guy who runs em off we don't get so many any more) or a cop/provocateur - and there were like fifteen of them, with motorola radios and cop shoes, who all seemed to know each other, yeah, sure, right.

As if even Rhino would be STUPID enough to use an unencrytped common-frequency radio, please.

Oh, and cause it's fucking funny.



-Frem

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Thursday, May 3, 2012 3:27 PM

6IXSTRINGJACK


LOL...

Fishing for pigs with donuts....

Never even knew that was a concept until that pic spoke a million words for me.

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Thursday, May 3, 2012 3:46 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by CaveTroll:
Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:
Quote:

Originally posted by CaveTroll:
I'm remembering the 90-100 million people killed by communist regimes during the 20th century.




How many killed by capitalist regimes in that time frame?





Since governments in capitalist countries don't control the media, I'm sure you heard about it.



It's cute that you believe that. Judith Miller is laughing her ass off right now.

Quote:


But by all means, attack the message, not the facts.




So is your "message" about communism, or about the number of deaths?

I seem to have touched a nerve by implying that capitalism has a death toll. Sorry to burst your bubble, but communism isn't the only "ism" that kills. Capitalism does it, too. And according to capitalism, it should be able to do it more efficiently and cheaper.



"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence [sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero, Real World Event Discussions

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Thursday, May 3, 2012 3:50 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by 6IXSTRINGJACK:
LOL...

Fishing for pigs with donuts....

Never even knew that was a concept until that pic spoke a million words for me.




Wonder how many took the bait.



"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence [sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero, Real World Event Discussions

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Thursday, May 3, 2012 3:51 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by 6IXSTRINGJACK:
LOL...

Fishing for pigs with donuts....



One of the funnier moments of the entire Occupy saga....



" We're all just folk. " - Mal

" AU, that was great, LOL!! " - Chrisisall

"The world is a dangerous place. Not because of the people who are evil; but because of the people who don't do anything about it." - Albert Einstein


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Friday, May 4, 2012 2:49 AM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up


Quote:

Originally posted by FREMDFIRMA:
...which means each and every supposed "black bloc" person there was either a general ruffian (unlikely, in that being the guy who runs em off we don't get so many any more)...



But in general, I'm wondering how many of the "anarchists" that show up for the larger marches and rallies are just the ordinary run of vandal who'd otherwise be out taking baseball bats to folks mailboxes or tipping over headstones in the cemetery, and who decide that it's probably fun and reasonably safe to tear up some downtown instead.

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Friday, May 4, 2012 6:20 AM

BYTEMITE


I imagine there are probably some vandals. I'm guessing a lot of the fires and violence in London last year were probably vandals, not cops.

Anyone who calls themselves an anarchist and walks around smashing out windows or trying to randomly blow up a bridge thinking that'll change anything... That level of stupid is kind of off the charts. I don't think they get the point of anarchism, and I really can't consider people like that as anything but wannabes.

At the same time, when a mostly peaceful civil disobedience group has little pockets of window smashing going on, you do have to look closer and question their connections to the group because the thing about civil disobedience is that it's not violent. So the window smashing gets a little suspicious, especially when there might be reason for TPTB to try to discredit the group. Which is why you have all this speculation about cops and instigation here.

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