REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

Bail and Blood

POSTED BY: HERO
UPDATED: Friday, April 27, 2012 10:37
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Friday, April 20, 2012 7:51 AM

HERO


Today Mr. Zimmerman was given a $150k bond. Its far more then the Defense wanted but far...far less then the State wanted. In other words its consistent with a bond given the facts presented and the charge.

The other big news is the bloody picture. This picture taken a few minutes after the shooting clearly shows blood flowing from injuries to the back of Mr. Zimmerman's head. The picture and others like it as well as the police reports clearly indicate that Mr. Zimmerman had injuries to his nose and face as well as blood flowing from both his nose and the cuts on the back of his head.

In other words he had injuries entirely consistent with what he was telling the police.

The Prosecutor failed to include or mention this evidence in the charging document as required by Florida law. While the Prosecutor may not have had access to the picture, they had access to Zimmerman, numerouse police reports and other photos taken by the police. That the injuries and evidence was ommitted is really bad. (I note in Ohio I do not need provide such evidence, but I also lack the power to file a felony charge absent a Grand Jury like they can in Florida...I'm iffy on which works better).

But Hero, says assorted folks round these parts, we're too emotionally committed to a predetermined finding of guilt to take your word for it!

The affadavit:
"...so thin that it won’t make it past a judge on a second degree murder charge … everything in the affidavit is completely consistent with a defense of self-defense.”

Failing to mention the picture:
"...grave ethical violation..."

"An affidavit that willfully misstates undisputed evidence known to the prosecution is not only unethical but borders on perjury because an affiant swears to tell not only the truth, but the whole truth, and suppressing an important part of the whole truth is a lie."

Thank your for agreeing with me on the above points Professor Alan Dershowitz of Harvard Law School, but aren't you taking sides? "I'm not taking sides, but I'm insisting that both sides play by the rules, and so far the prosecution is not playing by the rules."

You may all emotionally blather now...although I will say that I am encouraged by all the unqualified support you seem to be giving the police and the prosecutor. Its nice to know you all believe so much in the system once more.

I can only assume its because after all the times you've been wrong in assuming the police got it wrong...you've finally decided that the police and the state can do no wrong. Unfortunately the real lesson here is not to blindly support or condemn the police...just let things sort themselves out before jumping to a conclusion.

And if all else fails...'Hero is always right'.

H

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Friday, April 20, 2012 7:58 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Quote:

This picture taken a few minutes after the shooting clearly shows
Care to link to the picture, so we can all make up our own minds as to its veracity and what it shows?

Googling it I found this:

and the article says
Quote:

GMA host Robin Roberts said that there’s no way to be entirely certain that the photograph is 100 percent legitimate
.....
The person who took the photograph at the scene says a dazed Zimmerman asked him to call his wife and tell her he’d just shot someone. The photographer also claims to have seen gun powder on Martin’s hoodie, an indication that the shooting allegedly occurred at close range.

GPS data appears to show the photo was taken "just three minutes after the gunshot was heard. I'd not heard of anyone being there three minutes after the gunshot, has anyone else?

Comments to the article I found:
Quote:

--Even a slight injury to the scalp produces more bleeding than this. Having your head slammed into concrete, he would not be so perky walking into the police station.

--Bad photoshopped pic. Especially if you look at the right of the pic, the pattern is almost exact of the left side. The blood suspiciously stopped running at the bottom of the head and the left ear area. The tilt of his head should facilitate the blood running at least down the back of the ear. I bet this photo won't make it into evidence.

Dunno about any of that, we'll have to see.

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Friday, April 20, 2012 8:05 AM

STORYMARK


If he's not guilty, fine. Im just glad a legit investigation is ahppening.

And Hero, you're still a cowardly piece of go se for continually distorting the matter of their respective records, even if you're hiding from those threads now.

"Goram it kid, let's frak this thing and go home! Engage!"

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Friday, April 20, 2012 8:15 AM

M52NICKERSON

DALEK!


Hero maybe right, sometimes, but he is still an asshole.

That being said this picture show that Zimmerman had injuries to the back of his head. Which he may very well have gotten while Martin was standing his ground. The injuries do not answer the central question in this case, who assaulted who first.


I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.

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Friday, April 20, 2012 8:25 AM

PIRATENEWS

John Lee, conspiracy therapist at Hollywood award-winner History Channel-mocked SNL-spoofed PirateNew.org wooHOO!!!!!!


Quote:

Originally posted by Hero:

Today Mr. Zimmerman was given a $150k bond. Its far more then the Defense wanted but far...far less then the State wanted. In other words its consistent with a bond given the facts presented and the charge.

The other big news is the bloody picture. This picture taken a few minutes after the shooting clearly shows blood flowing from injuries to the back of Mr. Zimmerman's head. The picture and others like it as well as the police reports clearly indicate that Mr. Zimmerman had injuries to his nose and face as well as blood flowing from both his nose and the cuts on the back of his head.

In other words he had injuries entirely consistent with what he was telling the police.

The Prosecutor failed to include or mention this evidence in the charging document as required by Florida law. While the Prosecutor may not have had access to the picture, they had access to Zimmerman, numerouse police reports and other photos taken by the police. That the injuries and evidence was ommitted is really bad. (I note in Ohio I do not need provide such evidence, but I also lack the power to file a felony charge absent a Grand Jury like they can in Florida...I'm iffy on which works better).

But Hero, says assorted folks round these parts, we're too emotionally committed to a predetermined finding of guilt to take your word for it!

The affadavit:
"...so thin that it won’t make it past a judge on a second degree murder charge … everything in the affidavit is completely consistent with a defense of self-defense.”

Failing to mention the picture:
"...grave ethical violation..."

"An affidavit that willfully misstates undisputed evidence known to the prosecution is not only unethical but borders on perjury because an affiant swears to tell not only the truth, but the whole truth, and suppressing an important part of the whole truth is a lie."

Thank your for agreeing with me on the above points Professor Alan Dershowitz of Harvard Law School, but aren't you taking sides? "I'm not taking sides, but I'm insisting that both sides play by the rules, and so far the prosecution is not playing by the rules."

You may all emotionally blather now...although I will say that I am encouraged by all the unqualified support you seem to be giving the police and the prosecutor. Its nice to know you all believe so much in the system once more.

I can only assume its because after all the times you've been wrong in assuming the police got it wrong...you've finally decided that the police and the state can do no wrong. Unfortunately the real lesson here is not to blindly support or condemn the police...just let things sort themselves out before jumping to a conclusion.



Wow.... Hero admits that prosecutors lie, cheat and steal under political pressure, since prosecutors are elected politicians who lie, cheat and steal.

As for the $150,000 bond, that's $15,000 cash, or ZERO dollars for a bond secured by real estate.

Quote:

"Any prosecutor can convict a guilty man; it takes a great prosecutor to convict an innocent man."
-Dallas DA Henry Wade

"As district attorney of Dallas for an unprecedented 36 years, Henry Wade was the embodiment of Texas justice. Nineteen convictions — three for murder and the rest involving rape or burglary — won by Wade and two successors who trained under him have been overturned after DNA evidence exonerated the defendants. About 250 more cases are under review. No other county in America — and almost no state, for that matter — has freed more innocent people from prison in recent years than Dallas County, where Wade was DA from 1951 through 1986. John Stickels, a University of Texas at Arlington criminology professor and a director of the Innocence Project of Texas, blames a culture of 'win at all costs.' 'When someone was arrested, it was assumed they were guilty,' he said. 'I think prosecutors and investigators basically ignored all evidence to the contrary and decided they were going to convict these guys.' In his last 20 years as district attorney, his office won 165,000 convictions, the Dallas Morning News reported when he retired. In the 1960s, Wade secured a murder conviction against Ruby, the Dallas nightclub owner who shot Lee Harvey Oswald after Oswald's arrest in the assassination of President Kennedy. Ruby's conviction was overturned on appeal, and he died before Wade could retry him."
-MSNBC, "After Dallas DA’s death 19 convictions undone," 7/29/2008
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/25917791/ns/us_news-crime_and_courts/t/aft
er-dallas-das-death-convictions-undone
/

"I didn't shoot nobody no Sir! I'm just a patsy!"
-Lee Harvey Oswald, shot and killed by a jewish mobster inside the same Dallas Police Dept that President JFK Sr was shot and killed in front of

"I will smash the CIA into a thousand pieces!"
-President JFK Sr, after his veto of Operation Northwoods by Pentagon and CIA (then used to assassinate him)


http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.asp?b=18&t=34659


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Friday, April 20, 2012 8:28 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Why is this ONLY showing up on Good Morning America? I mean, Good Morning America? Where did they get it, and why is it nowhere else? I can only find the one story and its re-publication elsewhere...is it just too new or something? I'd like to know how only GMA got ahold of it, for one thing.
Quote:

GMA brought on ABC analyst and Mediaite founder Dan Abrams to discuss what these images might mean for Zimmerman’s case.

“There’s no way to be 100 percent certain of the photo,” said host Robin Roberts. “But ABC News did extensive vetting for the accuracy of the photo.”

"Yeah, before they’re even going to put it on the air, a lot of things done here,” Abrams explained. "But look, in the end, it comes down to the reporting on it. And our reporters on the scene have been saying this has been a very reluctant person to come forward. This person did not want to give up this picture initially. They’ve been talking about how important it is to show this picture, etc. And that’s how it ultimately came out. We’ll have to see. Before something like this will be admitted in a courtroom, they would have to determine its reliability.”

All I'm finding on the internet, aside from re-telling of this, is about Zimmerman getting bail and saying "I'm sorry". I dunno, guess we'll just have to wait and see.

Weird...I can't find it anywhere. Even on ABC's website, under "Breaking News" is Zimmerman saying he's sorry, then PHOTOS: Graphic Pic Shows Bloody Head--but when you click on that, this is what comes up:



The head shot is there, but you have to click to find it. Whazzup here? Why wouldn't ABC be screaming this to the heavens, given how much news this case has gotten? Very confusing...



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Friday, April 20, 2012 8:32 AM

STORYMARK


I missed this little bit of self-pity before:

"But Hero, says assorted folks round these parts, we're too emotionally committed to a predetermined finding of guilt to take your word for it! "

Horseshit.

All we wanted was a genuine investigation.

You're the asshat who keeps distroting the facts, or deliberately ignoreing pertinent details, in order to support YOUR predetermined finding.

By the way, Im with Chris on this: Fuck you.

"Goram it kid, let's frak this thing and go home! Engage!"

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Friday, April 20, 2012 8:48 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Uhhh, this Dershowitz?
Quote:

Harvard University professor Alan Dershowitz alleged Friday that Media Matters has "crossed the line into anti-semitism" by tolerating an employee who uses charged language to criticize supporters of Israel.

Dershowitz, a liberal Democrat who is a staunch supporter of Israel, first started speaking out against the liberal media watchdog group last month. He went further in an interview on Fox News, saying Friday that Media Matters has crossed the line into "bigotry."

or this one?
Quote:

Prominent political commentator Professor Alan Dershowitz slammed jurist Richard Goldstone, the architect of a UN report which accuses Israel of Gaza war crimes, saying he is a traitor to the Jewish people, Army Radio reported Sunday.

Dershowitz and Goldstone hadbeen colleagues and close friends for many years before the UN Gaza probe, but once Goldstone published his report the ties between the two were severed. "The Goldstone report is a defamation written by an evil, evil man," Dershowitz said.

In an interview with Army Radio, Dershowitz said he is appalled by the report and can't fathom how it could have been written by a Jew. He said it is as if a Jew would have written the Protocols of the Elders of Zion, and that the jurist is using the fact that his last name is 'Goldstone' to substantiate the report's defamation against the Jewish people.

Hmmmm, I'm surprised he has time for anything non-Israel related...

You're a sad, desperate little man, Hero, seems to me...



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Friday, April 20, 2012 8:53 AM

MINCINGBEAST


I never thought I would encounter a prosecutor who would argue against a predetermined finding of guilt.

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Friday, April 20, 2012 10:13 AM

CHRISISALL

Down the centuries you have slurred the meaning of the words, WE THE PEOPLE...


Quote:

Originally posted by Hero:
Mr. Zimmerman had injuries to his nose and face as well as blood flowing from both his nose and the cuts on the back of his head.


Reach for a gat & things happen.

...the kid began to wonder to himself how close he would let this creep get. He got an adrenaline surge as he realized he might not make it home in one piece if he didn't do something quick. In one step he turned fully around to face this guy, and with all the bravado he could muster began to gesticulate wildly as his voice grew loud asking the follower what he was up to. The man froze. Then his hand moved in that way you see in movies all the time. The kid realized he'd underestimated this entire thing. This creep had a gun, and was going for it. There was no time to think- he leaped at the man and they crashed to the ground, the kid's fists a blur. The man was yelling something, but all the kid could hear was his own heartbeat. Until the shot...

[just my take on what might have happened]

Chrisisall, wearing a frilly Mal thing on his head, and ready to shoot unarmed, full-body armoured Operatives...

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Friday, April 20, 2012 10:14 AM

CHRISISALL

Down the centuries you have slurred the meaning of the words, WE THE PEOPLE...



Dumass.

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Friday, April 20, 2012 10:56 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!



So much for the claims that there wasn't a mark on GZ to be found, anywhere.

The low $ amount of the bond is being said by some indicates that the prosecutors have a weak case. A very weak case. This is why the 2nd degree murder charge is being said to be an over charge by the prosecutor, in hopes of a plea deal. If this is a snap shot view of how things 'could' play out, this may not even go to trial.

George Zimmerman may very well walk.



" We're all just folk. " - Mal

" AU, that was great, LOL!! " - Chrisisall

"The world is a dangerous place. Not because of the people who are evil; but because of the people who don't do anything about it." - Albert Einstein


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Friday, April 20, 2012 11:11 AM

M52NICKERSON

DALEK!


Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:

So much for the claims that there wasn't a mark on GZ to be found, anywhere.

The low $ amount of the bond is being said by some indicates that the prosecutors have a weak case. A very weak case. This is why the 2nd degree murder charge is being said to be an over charge by the prosecutor, in hopes of a plea deal. If this is a snap shot view of how things 'could' play out, this may not even go to trial.

George Zimmerman may very well walk.



What does the strength of the prosecution case have to do with the bond...oh nothing. It was not higher because it is not believed that Zimmerman is a flight risk.

I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.

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Friday, April 20, 2012 11:45 AM

OONJERAH



George Zimmerman bond hearing: 5 new things we learned =>
http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/Justice/2012/0420/George-Zimmerman-bond-h
earing-5-new-things-we-learned/Zimmerman-brooded-over-comments-by-Trayvon-s-mother


But during his turn on the stand, Gilbreath drew attention to Zimmerman's
assertion to police that Trayvon was at one point running around Zimmerman's
car. Gilbreath questioned why that should make Zimmerman fear for his life.
“[Zimmerman] was so scared that he still got out of the car and chased Mr.
Martin,” Gilbreath said skeptically.

Because of various threats made against Zimmerman, the judge said he would
allow Zimmerman to move to another state for the time being, if it can be
arranged, given that he wear a GPS locator and check back in with Florida
authorities every three days.



. . . . .The worst and most frequent consequence of paranoia is that it's self-fulfilling.


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Friday, April 20, 2012 11:59 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by m52nickerson:

What does the strength of the prosecution case have to do with the bond...oh nothing. It was not higher because it is not believed that Zimmerman is a flight risk.



That's one way to spin it.



" We're all just folk. " - Mal

" AU, that was great, LOL!! " - Chrisisall

"The world is a dangerous place. Not because of the people who are evil; but because of the people who don't do anything about it." - Albert Einstein


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Friday, April 20, 2012 12:03 PM

STORYMARK


Quote:

Originally posted by m52nickerson:
Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:

So much for the claims that there wasn't a mark on GZ to be found, anywhere.

The low $ amount of the bond is being said by some indicates that the prosecutors have a weak case. A very weak case. This is why the 2nd degree murder charge is being said to be an over charge by the prosecutor, in hopes of a plea deal. If this is a snap shot view of how things 'could' play out, this may not even go to trial.

George Zimmerman may very well walk.



What does the strength of the prosecution case have to do with the bond...oh nothing. It was not higher because it is not believed that Zimmerman is a flight risk.

I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.



What do facts have to do with anything Rappy says?

Same answer.... nothing.

"Goram it kid, let's frak this thing and go home! Engage!"

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Friday, April 20, 2012 2:34 PM

HERO


Quote:

Originally posted by MINCINGBEAST:
I never thought I would encounter a prosecutor who would argue against a predetermined finding of guilt.


Remind me to tell you how I won my last jury trial.

H

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Friday, April 20, 2012 3:31 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by Storymark:

What do facts have to do with anything Rappy says?

Same answer.... nothing.




Incorrect . Facts are the basis and goal of all I say. You? Not so much. Beyond mindless , childish ad hominems, what do you EVER offer?





" We're all just folk. " - Mal

" AU, that was great, LOL!! " - Chrisisall

"The world is a dangerous place. Not because of the people who are evil; but because of the people who don't do anything about it." - Albert Einstein


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Friday, April 20, 2012 4:26 PM

PIRATENEWS

John Lee, conspiracy therapist at Hollywood award-winner History Channel-mocked SNL-spoofed PirateNew.org wooHOO!!!!!!


Quote:

Originally posted by chrisisall:

...the kid began to wonder to himself how close he would let this creep get. He got an adrenaline surge as he realized he might not make it home in one piece if he didn't do something quick. In one step he turned fully around to face this guy, and with all the bravado he could muster began to gesticulate wildly as his voice grew loud asking the follower what he was up to. The man froze. Then his hand moved in that way you see in movies all the time. The kid realized he'd underestimated this entire thing. This creep had a gun, and was going for it. There was no time to think- he leaped at the man and they crashed to the ground, the kid's fists a blur. The man was yelling something, but all the kid could hear was his own heartbeat. Until the shot...



Don't bring a fist to a gunfight.


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Friday, April 20, 2012 4:38 PM

M52NICKERSON

DALEK!


Quote:

Originally posted by Hero:
Quote:

Originally posted by MINCINGBEAST:
I never thought I would encounter a prosecutor who would argue against a predetermined finding of guilt.


Remind me to tell you how I won my last jury trial.

H



Give me your name and the trial and I'll look it up!

I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.

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Friday, April 20, 2012 4:41 PM

M52NICKERSON

DALEK!


Quote:

Originally posted by AURAPTOR:
[Incorrect . Facts are the basis and goal of all I say.



You saying stupid things like....

Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:
Quote:

Originally posted by m52nickerson:

What does the strength of the prosecution case have to do with the bond...oh nothing. It was not higher because it is not believed that Zimmerman is a flight risk.



That's one way to spin it.



...says different. There no spin to what I said. You simply do not understand what you are talking about.

I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.

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Saturday, April 21, 2012 2:06 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by m52nickerson:
Quote:

Originally posted by AURAPTOR:
Incorrect . Facts are the basis and goal of all I say.



You saying stupid things like....

Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:
Quote:

Originally posted by m52nickerson:

What does the strength of the prosecution case have to do with the bond...oh nothing. It was not higher because it is not believed that Zimmerman is a flight risk.



That's one way to spin it.



...says different. There no spin to what I said. You simply do not understand what you are talking about.



Then I guess neither does Alan Dershowitz, huh? Because that's pretty much what HE said. And I'd put his knowledge of the judicial system before both yours or mine.

Yes, in part what you're saying is accurate, in having to do w/ Zimmerman being a flight risk. But there's also more to it than just that, and understanding decisions like this is often like reading tea leaves. More than 1 conversation I heard , of lawyers talking about his aspect of the case, and who have some working knowledge of how these sorts of trials tend to go, indicate that the prosecution has next to little to go on, save for the fact that Trayvon was indeed shot to death. It's gonna be hard for the prosecution to show , based on what info has come out , that this was anything more than a manslaughter case.

And before you go on yammering about whether these were 'right-wing' lawyers, or were only giving a 'right wing' slant, step back and look at what I said.

Quote:

The low $ amount of the bond is being said by some indicates that the prosecutors have a weak case.


Somehow, Storybook twisted that comment into some sort of snide remark about facts having to do w/ anything I say. Storybook don't like what I say, so she automatically resort to the " Rappy doesn't like facts! " bit. I said that this is being said " by some ". Do I need to explain this further ?

Fact is, that is EXACTLY the view point given by Alan Dershowitz, and others, but because I say it here, YOU dismiss it, out of hand.

( Or, you could be like Niki, and try to villainize Mr Dershowitz, w/ out even BOTHERING to deal w/ the actual, specific details of this case. I'd expect that from you as well, since that and name calling is about all you have to offer.)

Further down I offer up this...

Quote:

If this is a snap shot view of how things 'could' play out, this may not even go to trial.

George Zimmerman may very well walk.



I wasn't making any bold claims, or even wishes. I said " IF " this is a look into how things " COULD " play out. I'm stating that this , despite what Al Sharpton and the NBPP want , could be a very weak case against Zimmerman. Going on THE LAW, which is what we ultimately have to do here, if we're to seek justice, Zimmerman could get a very 'light' sentence, or possibly ...walk entirely.


These things need to be played out.






" We're all just folk. " - Mal

" AU, that was great, LOL!! " - Chrisisall

"The world is a dangerous place. Not because of the people who are evil; but because of the people who don't do anything about it." - Albert Einstein


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Saturday, April 21, 2012 3:05 AM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up


Quote:

Originally posted by Niki2:
Why is this ONLY showing up on Good Morning America? I mean, Good Morning America? Where did they get it, and why is it nowhere else?



"The exclusive photo obtained by ABC News shows blood trickling down the back of Zimmerman's head from two cuts."

http://abcnews.go.com/US/george-zimmerman-case-exclusive-photo-shows-b
loodied-back/story?id=16177849


This would seem to indicate that ABC bought exclusive rights to the picture from whoever took it. It probably showed up on GMA because that's the first major ABC national news show after the picture was obtained. The link above is ABC World News.

Further down in the article.

"The person who took the photograph of a bloodied Zimmerman, asking not to be identified, told ABC News exclusively that they did not see the scuffle that night, but did hear it. The person recalled seeing Martin's prostrate body on the wet grass and said the gunpowder burns on Martin's gray hoodie were clearly visible."

and

"Investigators have seen the photo."

So looks like the cops had the photo and eye-witness testimony and then that person cashed in with ABC.

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Saturday, April 21, 2012 3:24 AM

M52NICKERSON

DALEK!


Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:

Then I guess neither does Alan Dershowitz, huh? Because that's pretty much what HE said. And I'd put his knowledge of the judicial system before both yours or mine.

Yes, in part what you're saying is accurate, in having to do w/ Zimmerman being a flight risk. But there's also more to it than just that, and understanding decisions like this is often like reading tea leaves. More than 1 conversation I heard , of lawyers talking about his aspect of the case, and who have some working knowledge of how these sorts of trials tend to go, indicate that the prosecution has next to little to go on, save for the fact that Trayvon was indeed shot to death. It's gonna be hard for the prosecution to show , based on what info has come out , that this was anything more than a manslaughter case.



Alan Dershowitz was talking about the case in general. Part of the bond amount maybe because of the amount of evidence, but far more is how likely it is for Zimmerman to disappear.

I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.

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Saturday, April 21, 2012 4:09 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!



So, is that your attempt at an apology or something ? Because the flight risk wasn't the entirety of what Mr Dershowitz was talking about here. Did you hear him somewhere too ? ( I'm guessing not, because you said it was a 'stupid' thing to say )



" We're all just folk. " - Mal

" AU, that was great, LOL!! " - Chrisisall

"The world is a dangerous place. Not because of the people who are evil; but because of the people who don't do anything about it." - Albert Einstein


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Saturday, April 21, 2012 4:46 AM

M52NICKERSON

DALEK!


Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:
So, is that your attempt at an apology or something ? Because the flight risk wasn't the entirety of what Mr Dershowitz was talking about here. Did you hear him somewhere too ? ( I'm guessing not, because you said it was a 'stupid' thing to say )



No it wasn't. You claimed...

Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:
The low $ amount of the bond is being said by some indicates that the prosecutors have a weak case. A very weak case.



...as in the bond amount was only about the evidence in the case.

I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.

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Saturday, April 21, 2012 5:30 AM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up


Quote:

Originally posted by Niki2:
Uhhh, this Dershowitz?
Quote:

Harvard University professor Alan Dershowitz alleged Friday that Media Matters has "crossed the line into anti-semitism" by tolerating an employee who uses charged language to criticize supporters of Israel.

Dershowitz, a liberal Democrat who is a staunch supporter of Israel, first started speaking out against the liberal media watchdog group last month. He went further in an interview on Fox News, saying Friday that Media Matters has crossed the line into "bigotry."

or this one?
Quote:

Prominent political commentator Professor Alan Dershowitz slammed jurist Richard Goldstone, the architect of a UN report which accuses Israel of Gaza war crimes, saying he is a traitor to the Jewish people, Army Radio reported Sunday.

Dershowitz and Goldstone had been colleagues and close friends for many years before the UN Gaza probe, but once Goldstone published his report the ties between the two were severed. "The Goldstone report is a defamation written by an evil, evil man," Dershowitz said.

In an interview with Army Radio, Dershowitz said he is appalled by the report and can't fathom how it could have been written by a Jew. He said it is as if a Jew would have written the Protocols of the Elders of Zion, and that the jurist is using the fact that his last name is 'Goldstone' to substantiate the report's defamation against the Jewish people.

Hmmmm, I'm surprised he has time for anything non-Israel related...

You're a sad, desperate little man, Hero, seems to me...





Niki, I'd think the sad desperate individual here would be the one who is trying to slander Dershowitz (A Liberal Democrat, BTW) just because he won't join their lynch mob.

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Saturday, April 21, 2012 7:03 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by m52nickerson:
No it wasn't. You claimed...

Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:
The low $ amount of the bond is being said by some indicates that the prosecutors have a weak case. A very weak case.



...as in the bond amount was only about the evidence in the case.



First, it's not what I claimed. 3rd time I'm having to point this out...

" ...IS BEING SAID BY SOME " and " INDICATES ".

This is a classic example of you only reading what you want to read. I never declared that this was the sole reason for the low bond. You just wanted to THINK that's what I said. And the point is, it wasn't ME saying it.

Good grief... let it go already.




" We're all just folk. " - Mal

" AU, that was great, LOL!! " - Chrisisall

"The world is a dangerous place. Not because of the people who are evil; but because of the people who don't do anything about it." - Albert Einstein


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Saturday, April 21, 2012 8:04 AM

M52NICKERSON

DALEK!


Yes that is what you said. The point is that the bond amount may have to do with the evidence, but does not have to. So for anyone to say that the bond amount indicates a weakness in the prosecutions evidence is over stating things.

I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.

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Saturday, April 21, 2012 8:10 AM

KPO

"Love is natural and real. But not for you my love. Not tonight my love..."


This takes us back to where we were before the pictures of Zimmerman walking seemingly unarmed into the police station came out. If it emerges that the shot was at close range, Zimmerman's defence looks very strong.

It's not personal. It's just war.

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Saturday, April 21, 2012 8:14 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by m52nickerson:
Yes that is what you said. The point is that the bond amount may have to do with the evidence, but does not have to. So for anyone to say that the bond amount indicates a weakness in the prosecutions evidence is over stating things.



After I've clarified things twice now, are you STILL going to claim it was " stupid " ?



" We're all just folk. " - Mal

" AU, that was great, LOL!! " - Chrisisall

"The world is a dangerous place. Not because of the people who are evil; but because of the people who don't do anything about it." - Albert Einstein


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Saturday, April 21, 2012 8:18 AM

M52NICKERSON

DALEK!


Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:
After I've clarified things twice now, are you STILL going to claim it was " stupid " ?



I didn't claim your original statement was stupid, only your claim that I tried to spin something was. For fuck sake try to follow along.

I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.

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Saturday, April 21, 2012 8:37 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by m52nickerson:
Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:
After I've clarified things twice now, are you STILL going to claim it was " stupid " ?



I didn't claim your original statement was stupid, only your claim that I tried to spin something was. For fuck sake try to follow along.

I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.



" You saying stupid things like.... "



Yeah, for fuck sake... follow along.




" We're all just folk. " - Mal

" AU, that was great, LOL!! " - Chrisisall

"The world is a dangerous place. Not because of the people who are evil; but because of the people who don't do anything about it." - Albert Einstein


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Saturday, April 21, 2012 9:45 AM

M52NICKERSON

DALEK!


Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:

" You saying stupid things like.... "

Yeah, for fuck sake... follow along.



Helps if you include everything...

Quote:

Originally posted by m52nickerson:

You saying stupid things like....

Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:

That's one way to spin it.





...try a little honesty next time.

I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.

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Saturday, April 21, 2012 1:10 PM

PIRATENEWS

John Lee, conspiracy therapist at Hollywood award-winner History Channel-mocked SNL-spoofed PirateNew.org wooHOO!!!!!!




The propaganda (BS) value of this case is extremely high for gun bans by Al Qaeda Dictator Hussein Obama Soetoro
(official citizen of Indonesia, Kenya and UK) and his kosher New World Odor banksters.



New photo clears Zimmerman, shows blood pouring down his head minutes after Trayvon Martin shooting, powder burns
on Martin's hoodie from point-blank range
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2132776/Is-photo-clear-Zimmerm
an-New-picture-shows-blood-pouring-head-minutes-Trayvon-Martin-shooting.html



Zimmerman treated and washed by paramedics at scene before going to jail for interrogation

Meanwhile, Obama is gave 20,000 guns to the Mexican mafiyas, laundering their drug money and distributing their
coke, while chopping heads off 1,000s of politicians, journalists and cops. No arrests have been made, not even
demoted or fired.






















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Saturday, April 21, 2012 1:19 PM

KPO

"Love is natural and real. But not for you my love. Not tonight my love..."


Quote:

And if all else fails...'Hero is always right'.

What exactly were you right about?

It's not personal. It's just war.

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Saturday, April 21, 2012 4:46 PM

PIRATENEWS

John Lee, conspiracy therapist at Hollywood award-winner History Channel-mocked SNL-spoofed PirateNew.org wooHOO!!!!!!

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Saturday, April 21, 2012 5:59 PM

FREMDFIRMA



One note about all this mess - the Judge got pulled from the case because of potentive bias, which I think is justified, given that the matter should be settled as honestly as possible, HOWEVER...
I think that damn prosecutor needs to go too - this should be a trial, not a fucking lynch mob, and once the name connected, I about hit the roof, Angela Corey happens to be involved in a previous case brought to my attention, in which she's all but running over a poor bastard who needs longterm psychiatric care, not a goddamn prison cell.

You can read the details here.
http://justice4juveniles.wordpress.com/2012/04/08/the-story-of-cristia
n-fernandez
/

Friggin mess, the lot of it, and instead of addressing the massive, institutional FAILURES which led it to that point, no, just blame the kid entire and make it all go away, yeah, right...
Not to mention her fuckin lynch-mob ATTITUDE about it.

Seriously, remember me sayin there's a difference between "Guilty as hell" in a moral sense, versus a legal sense ?
I could give a fuck about Zimmerman, he's a creep - but even such a creep needs, deserves, a fair trial - for if the same standards don't apply to EVERYBODY, then they oughta apply to NOBODY.
As such, Angie needs to be punted off that case before it's brought to trial, IMHO.
Quote:

"The trouble with fighting for human freedom is that one spends most of one's time defending scoundrels. For it is against scoundrels that oppressive laws are first aimed, and oppression must be stopped at the beginning if it is to be stopped at all."
-H.L.Mencken


Sure, morally, in my eyes he's guilty as hell, but that means NOTHING in the face of the essential *REQUIREMENTS* for Justice to be called anything of the sort, and Angie there has proven she has no idea what the fuckin word even means.

-Frem

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Sunday, April 22, 2012 2:16 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Helps if you include everything


No, it helps if you R E A D what I'm saying first, and not jump to idiotic conclusions.

Quote:

... try a little honesty next time.



Huh ????

Where was I, even one iota, dishonest ?






" We're all just folk. " - Mal

" AU, that was great, LOL!! " - Chrisisall

"The world is a dangerous place. Not because of the people who are evil; but because of the people who don't do anything about it." - Albert Einstein


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Sunday, April 22, 2012 4:58 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Story, I'd have to say in my opinion you're wrong about
Quote:

What do facts have to do with anything Rappy says?
He clearly stated "is being said by some" and "is being said to be", so he was not stating it as fact, only as rumor. Admittedly it appears to be what he believes as well, but he did caveat it. (can "caveat" be used as a verb?) Ooops, I see Raptor has clarified that further down; in my opinion, he is quite correct. Tho' I give little weight to what he heard other attorneys say, given nobody but those involved know ALL the facts. Judging from what we HAVE heard, and how the bond hearing was done, I'd have to say the prosecutor didn't do a very good job; I hope he does better at trial.

I also have to agree with him that "understanding decisions like this is often like reading tea leaves". Personally, it is my firm belief that the low bond WAS an indication that there was little or no fear of Zimmerman being a flight risk, and little else.

Nobody else may have noticed it, but I have: On this specific issue, Raptor has pretty much been consistent in not making flat statements either way, in other words, he's appeared to withhold his opinion of who is guilty of what, which I have found laudable.

Hero, if you ever did a jury trial, much less "won" one, you'd have to give us reliable cites, as Nick did. Given what you've expressed here...AND represented as "fact", I think a number of us would seriously doubt you actually ARE a lawyer, and especially a very good one. You stated flatly that Zimmerman had no record and Martin did, which is the exact reverse of what is true. That doesn't sound like a very good attorney to me.

You could provide your name and a cite to said trial via PM to someone we trust, if you don't want to expose yourself on the forum, which I could fully understand, but beyond that, we can only view you as you speak here...and we all know, anyone can claim to be anything on the internet.

As to Dershowitz, I in no way deny his knowledge of the law and judicial process. I do, however, find him to be close to the point of, shall I say "unstable", in some respects. Ergo I don't take his opinion as particularly valid on anything, which is why I snarked about him. If material presented by some sources can be dismissed out of hand, I feel the same about Dershowitz, and given Raptor has dismissed numerous sources because of his belief in their unreliability, I do the same for Dershowitz. I find a lot of what he states as unconvincing. I didn't "villainies" him, I quoted some of what I consider his more unsound opinions.

The same to Geezer; I didn't "slander" Derschowitz, I quoted him to show part of why I consider his opinion on most anything untrustworthy--by the way, I don't give a shit about his political leanings--and I see no "lynch mob" HERE, we've been debating the case as facts, or supposed facts, come out.

Lastly, Raptor, I think "dishonest" is, as you indicated, incorrect. I would say rather "mistaken" in that yes, while it's possible the low bail is partly because of a weak case, it is far more likely it is because of the lack of flight risk. I can't see lack of a strong case as a valid reason for low bail, while in this case, lack of flight risk being taken into account, I can easily see how the decision to get him out of jail--and quite possibly out of state--WOULD be a reasonable cause. Yes, charges ARE sometimes too high in hopes of a plea deal, but the prosecutor (I think it was) said that's not the case here--tho' of course they could be lying--and again, we don't know all the facts yet. Personally, I think they may well reduce it to manslaughter...the jury has that option in Florida...and in my opinion, if the case is proven to be what we already know on the material thus far presented, manslaughter is more appropriate. If he's even guilty; that's to be determined at trial.



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Sunday, April 22, 2012 5:14 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!



Quote:

Tho' I give little weight to what he heard other attorneys say, given nobody but those involved know ALL the facts. Judging from what we HAVE heard, and how the bond hearing was done, I'd have to say the prosecutor didn't do a very good job; I hope he does better at trial.


And I'd like to add that, both Dershowitz and others said pretty much exactly what you just did, Niki. WE , the public, don't know what the prosecutors know, don't have all the facts, and so any reading into what was or wasn't done, the amount of the bail, etc.... is PURE speculation. The lawyers, being well, lawyers, were key on making that point very clear. But based on what we DO know, they were able to give their opinions. I just relayed their comments, as I recalled them.


Point is, we'll all see how this plays out in court, when all the cards are on the table.



" We're all just folk. " - Mal

" AU, that was great, LOL!! " - Chrisisall

"The world is a dangerous place. Not because of the people who are evil; but because of the people who don't do anything about it." - Albert Einstein


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Monday, April 23, 2012 4:36 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


I agree Raptor (don't fall over). And I have been very aware that where this case is concerned, you have refrained from making judgments and have held to "we don't know everything" fairly consistently. I respect you for that (have you fallen over yet?).



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Monday, April 23, 2012 8:16 AM

OONJERAH



Judge unseals file in Trayvon Martin murder case =>
http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2012-04-23/news/os-trayvon-martin-
george-zimmerman-released-bail-20120423_1_bond-statement-electronic-monitoring-device


George Zimmerman was released early Monday morning from the Seminole County jail.
And hours later, the judge in the case unsealed the court file, making a small portion
of information about the case public. ...

The newly unsealed court file offered bits of new information but little of substance. ...

on Friday, lawyer Benjamin Crump said the teenager's mother and father were devastated
by a decision by Circuit Judge Kenneth Lester Jr. to release Zimmerman. ...

Those newly-released court records also reveal that prosecutors didn't want Zimmerman
wearing a suit – civilian clothes of any kind – at Friday's bond hearing. That, wrote
Bernie de la Rionda, was an unwarranted attempt to polish Zimmerman's media image.

The judge said yes to the suit, and the defendant wore an over-sized blue one, but the
judge also ordered him to wear shackles, another rule O'Mara had asked the judge to relax.

At Friday's bond hearing, Special Prosecutor Angela Corey and prosecutor Bernie de la
Rionda failed to convince the judge that Zimmerman should stay locked up.

The judge ordered Zimmerman to wear a GPS monitoring device, give up any guns, abide by a
7 p.m. to 6 a.m. curfew plus imposed other restrictions. O'Mara surrendered Zimmerman's
passport.



. . . . .The worst and most frequent consequence of paranoia is that it's self-fulfilling.


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Monday, April 23, 2012 10:43 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!



A couple of things I'm not sure I fully understand.

First, Trayvon's mother asks for everyone to dial back the rhetoric, for justice to take its course, and for folks to not take matters into their own hands.

She then says “I would probably give him an opportunity to apologize. "

Zimmeran did apologize...

"I wanted to say I am sorry for the loss of your son. I did not know how old he was. I thought he was a little bit younger than I am, and I did not know if he was armed or not."

and it was rejected.

Not sincere enough.

Ill timed.



I'm not so naive to think that there was going to be a kumbaya moment, and that their lawyer, Benjamin Crump, wasn't the one calling the shots, but at this stage, what's the point of even trying ?

Zimmerman had asked for a private audience w/ Trayvon's parents. That was declined. It was then, when he took the stand, that he offered his apology.

Why ask for something if you're only going to reject it, and dismiss it, out of hand ?

Ill timed ? Trayvon died, what... 2 months ago ? When would have been a better time for Zimmerman to apologize ?

Day 1 , after the shooting ?

Day 12 ?

Day 38 ?

This is ridiculous. What we have here is a tragedy, clear enough. But on top of that, we have folks, from the outside, who have come in and made this far more of a media event than it warrants. Folks who aren't in a position to deal w/ the spot light of attention are doing and saying the most ridiculous things. And after seeing the video of Zimmerman, and the photos of his injuries, it should infuriate everyone all the more that the MSM attempted ( and basically succeeded ) in making this a 'racial' issue, a 'white on black ' thing.

It wasn't. It isn't. But certain folks, from New York and across the country, have a huge financial interest in making this story out to be exactly what it ISN'T.

This annoys me.











" We're all just folk. " - Mal

" AU, that was great, LOL!! " - Chrisisall

"The world is a dangerous place. Not because of the people who are evil; but because of the people who don't do anything about it." - Albert Einstein


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Monday, April 23, 2012 5:02 PM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up


Quote:

Originally posted by Niki2:
As to Dershowitz, I in no way deny his knowledge of the law and judicial process. I do, however, find him to be close to the point of, shall I say "unstable", in some respects. Ergo I don't take his opinion as particularly valid on anything, which is why I snarked about him.



Well, you're pretty much saying you deny his knowledge of the law and judicial process when you say you don't take his opinion as particularly valid on anything.

Not sure what his opinions on Israel have to do with a murder 2 case in Florida. Nevertheless, Dershowitz is a pretty distinguished lawyer, jurist, and professor of law, so his statements on matters of law should carry some weight.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alan_Morton_Dershowitz

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Monday, April 23, 2012 5:12 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by Geezer:
Quote:

Originally posted by Niki2:
As to Dershowitz, I in no way deny his knowledge of the law and judicial process. I do, however, find him to be close to the point of, shall I say "unstable", in some respects. Ergo I don't take his opinion as particularly valid on anything, which is why I snarked about him.



Well, you're pretty much saying you deny his knowledge of the law and judicial process when you say you don't take his opinion as particularly valid on anything.

Not sure what his opinions on Israel have to do with a murder 2 case in Florida. Nevertheless, Dershowitz is a pretty distinguished lawyer, jurist, and professor of law, so his statements on matters of law should carry some weight.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alan_Morton_Dershowitz




I could say the same for just about any Leftist who buys into AGW, right ? I mean, how could anyone so unstable who promotes that myth be expected to make sense on ANY other topic ?



" We're all just folk. " - Mal

" AU, that was great, LOL!! " - Chrisisall

"The world is a dangerous place. Not because of the people who are evil; but because of the people who don't do anything about it." - Albert Einstein


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Tuesday, April 24, 2012 2:14 AM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up


Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:
I could say the same for just about any Leftist who buys into AGW, right ? I mean, how could anyone so unstable who promotes that myth be expected to make sense on ANY other topic ?



Well, I was gonna mention Madame Geezer's dentist, who is an absolute nut on Flat/Fair Tax. He rolls on it every time she goes to get her teeth cleaned, since he knows she used to work for the IRS. That being said, he's a very good dentist, and his views on tax don't prevent him from doing a professional job.

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Tuesday, April 24, 2012 2:24 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!



What's wrong with either the FairTax or Flat Tax ? Either would be a vast upgrade from our current system. And eliminating or greatly down sizing the IRS ? No offense to Mme Geezer, but I call that a win / win.

* Now, back to your regularly schedule thread *



" We're all just folk. " - Mal

" AU, that was great, LOL!! " - Chrisisall

"The world is a dangerous place. Not because of the people who are evil; but because of the people who don't do anything about it." - Albert Einstein


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Tuesday, April 24, 2012 4:32 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Unfortunately (dammit!) I have to PARTIALLY agree with Raptor yet again. I wasn't thrilled to see the apology rejected either. I'm not sure what would have been RIGHT, given the circumstances, and I too believe it was an attempt to make Zimmerman look, if you will, "softer" to the public and any potential jurors (tho' I doubt they'll pull any from Sanford or neighboring areas!), but were it me, I'd have said pretty much what she said, but added "nonetheless I appreciate his apology and hope it was sincere". Not much of an improvement, I admit, but I think some kind of acknowledgement of the apology was called for. By the way, Zimmerman's attorney has said the apology was "ill timed": http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/zimmerman-attorney-apology-ill-time
d-16193145
]

And yes, the media has blown it up--don't they always? "If it bleeds, it leads" has always been the case. In this case, however, I'm glad the media blew it up somewhat, because it was something that would have been swept under the rug if it hadn't been brought to the attention of the public. We already know that, or should, from the fact nothing was said about it for almost a month and that Zimmerman was released and there was no intent to prosecute him. Media is both good and bad.

I also agree with
Quote:

Folks who aren't in a position to deal w/ the spot light of attention are doing and saying the most ridiculous things
That's true of virtually everyone on the side of authority, from police to their higher ups, as well as Zimmerman, his initial lawyers, his father and brother, and others. I actually think the Martin family has done the best job of handling this with dignity and a modicum of discretion, given the situation and how it WAS swept under the rug originally.

As to whether there is racism involved, I don't know and I don't think anyone else ever will except Zimmerman himself. I THINK (my own opinion, nothing more) from Zimmerman's background that he would have been suspicious of anyone in that situation, black or white or brown, but beyond that, all we know is that Zimmerman was aware Martin was black. Beyond that, I'm not about to assume one way or the other.

I'm STILL wondering why the alleged photo of the back of Zimmerman's head hasn't appeared anywhere in the news, except as a photo on ABC. Even there, there is nothing about it except the photo which you can click on, and that one mention in one story--a mention which was almost an aside. Everything else about the case is still getting media coverage; why not that?? It's pretty big news, it would seem to me, but tho' it's all over the internet, none of the major news networks but ABC have mentioned it, including CNN and MSNBC. Why not?

One site, "The Examiner", reports it thus:
Quote:

As in almost every other element of the Trayvon Martin shooting, there are still questions. Where did ABC News get the photograph and how long have they had it? Upon close examination, is this photograph a legitimate, documentable record of George Zimmerman’s injuries on that night? Was the photograph suppressed by anyone from the news stream in this case? http://www.examiner.com/article/george-zimmerman-head-injury-photo-rai
ses-more-questions
and curiouser...



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Tuesday, April 24, 2012 6:46 AM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up


Quote:

Originally posted by Niki2:
I'm STILL wondering why the alleged photo of the back of Zimmerman's head hasn't appeared anywhere in the news, except as a photo on ABC.



As noted above, it's probably because ABC purchased EXCLUSIVE rights to the photo. Anyone else using it without their permission would be subject to suit.

As to why they're not using it more, could be that they don't want to prejudice the jury pool, or could be that they'd rather not interrupt the "Racist White Man Gunning Down Poor Black Kid" vibe.

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Sun, April 20, 2014 18:11 - 4 posts
So, Geezer, rappy, in your ideal world, what should happen?
Sun, April 20, 2014 11:31 - 107 posts
Harvard study: America is an oligarchy
Sun, April 20, 2014 10:36 - 22 posts
Former Arizona Sheriff Reveals Chilling Strategy to Put Women ‘Up at the Front’ During Bundy Ranch Standoff
Sun, April 20, 2014 09:52 - 29 posts
when we last left the owls ...
Sun, April 20, 2014 08:59 - 7 posts
Wait a minute, you didn't learn how Obamacare ended...
Sat, April 19, 2014 20:07 - 24 posts
Republican dares to speak the truth
Sat, April 19, 2014 17:22 - 14 posts
Meawhile back in Fukushima
Sat, April 19, 2014 11:52 - 5 posts
NY Times "reopens" rape case
Sat, April 19, 2014 09:55 - 5 posts
Climate Meeting to Discuss Future of Fossil Fuels
Sat, April 19, 2014 08:46 - 57 posts
What's your Political Compass?
Sat, April 19, 2014 01:09 - 48 posts

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