REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

The Retreat at Twin Lakes homeowners may be sued over Martin's Death

POSTED BY: NIKI2
UPDATED: Monday, April 23, 2012 06:23
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Wednesday, April 18, 2012 8:16 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Quote:

The Retreat at Twin Lakes homeowners association might be wishing they had picked someone else to be neighborhood watch captain, since Zimmerman’s action could end up costing them a bundle of money, to say nothing of a young man’s life.

“The degree to which the HOA authorized George Zimmerman’s actions will affect the HOA’s exposure to liability and may also play a role in the theory of liability presented by the plaintiffs in this case,” Wilcox says. “The HOA’s liability based on its designation of George Zimmerman as neighborhood watch captain will also depend on the answers to numerous questions.”

Among the questions that would determine the extent to which the association is exposed to liability:

How was Zimmerman appointed? By a vote of the HOA board?

What is the HOA’s authority under its governing documents to establish a community watch program in the first place?

How detailed were the HOA’s guidelines and policies, if any, for executing the community watch program?

Did the HOA have knowledge that Zimmerman owned and carried firearms?

Did Zimmerman have a concealed weapons permit?

Did Zimmerman violate any other HOA rules relating to carrying a firearm in the neighborhood? http://blogs.lawyers.com/2012/04/homeowners-association-could-be-liabl
e-in-trayvon-martins-death/
was Zimmerman appointed?
Quote:

As the only person to volunteer when the homeowners association wanted to organize a community watch,[44] Zimmerman was appointed coordinator by his neighbors, according to Wendy Dorival, Neighborhood Watch organizer for the Sanford Police Department. The February 2012 homeowner association newsletter requested that crime victims "call our captain, George Zimmerman" after calling the police.
What is the HOA's authority under its governing documents to establish a communit-watch program in the first place?
Quote:

Association boards may appoint corporate officers - or officers may be elected directly by the membership (depending on the jurisdiction). The officers and the board may create committees, such as an "architectural control committee", a pool committee, a neighborhood watch committee, and others. Wiki
The governing documents aren't available to the public, but I found this:
Quote:

Whenever an association is attempting to enforce a provision in the governing documents, any ambiguity will be construed against the association. http://www.condoandhoalawblog.com/search/label/governing%20documents]
How detailed were the HOA’s guidelines and policies, if any, for executing the community watch program? There are numerous references to
Quote:

The head of an HOA watchdog group told the Sentinel: "They should have ... disallowed members from running around with guns. If you don't put out guidelines, you are in deep doo-doo if something happens." http://blogs.findlaw.com/injured/2012/04/homeowners-may-have-to-pay-in
-a-trayvon-civil-action.html
we haven't public access to their documents, we can't know.

Did the HOA have knowledge that Zimmerman owned and carried firearms?
Quote:

An interview with 3 members of the association defending Zimmerman - when asked if they knew if he had a gun - 2 said no, 1 said YES. http://www.masslive.com/news/index.ssf/2012/04/homeowner_association_c
ould_be/865/comments-newest.html
a comment to an article, and I can't find anything else to verify it. There is also mention that, if they knew he carried a gun, the other homeowners should have been notified of that. Most homeowners' associations do not allow their watch people to carry guns.

Other references include this about neighborhood watch carrying guns?:
Quote:

He had to take a class with other volunteers, where he says deputies told them to never chase a suspect. They aren't allowed to carry weapons. They aren't even allowed to get out of their cars. http://www.tampabay.com/news/publicsafety/policy-of-caution-guides-nei
ghborhood-watch-groups/1221327
] The National Sheriff's Association sponsors neighborhood watch programs. Their manual says patrol members don't carry weapons. http://www.actionnewsjax.com/mostpopular/story/Should-neighborhood-wat
ch-groups-carry-guns/uLHMnZnxhEqNhOI5lwTcpg.cspx
are other neighborhood watch programs which do allow it. According to a CNN poll:
Quote:

According to the poll, only one in five believe that neighborhood watch members should carry guns, with 76% saying they should not be allowed to be armed. http://articles.cnn.com/2012-03-26/justice/justice_florida-teen-shooti
ng-poll_1_gun-laws-shooting-death-grand-jury?_s=PM:JUSTICE
]

Did Zimmerman have a concealed weapons permit?
Quote:

Zimmerman was licensed to carry a firearm. Sanford police chief Bill Lee stated that neighborhood watch volunteers are not encouraged to carry a gun but have a Constitutional right to do so. Lee further stated, "Mr. Zimmerman was not acting outside the legal boundaries of Florida Statute by carrying his weapon when this incident occurred." Wiki


There is this:
Quote:

Unfortunately, the HOA was a part of this tragedy. What due diligence did the HOA undertake before appointing Zimmerman to a position of “Neighborhood Watch Captain”? Did the board ask about Zimmerman’s background, which we now know was not “squeaky clean”? Did the board ask if he carried a weapon? What training did Zimmerman have? Did the board ask any of these questions, before endorsing him in the HOA newsletter as the “go to” guy for community security?

According to the National Sheriff’s Association, the HOA community never registered with any official neighborhood watch program. Why not? Did the HOA even know or verify that neighborhood volunteers were following appropriate guidelines?

We now know that Zimmerman certainly did not follow the guidelines promulgated by the National Sheriff’s Association for neighborhood watch programs. Chris Tutko who runs the program stated that the manual specifically states that citizens should never pursue or take action on their suspicions. Their job is to report, not shoot. Neighborhood watch volunteers have no more authority than an ordinary citizen. According to NPR, Tutko emphasized that “Firearms are definitely out” for a neighborhood watch program. http://blogs.sun-sentinel.com/condoblog/page/2 know that neighborhood watch programs don't need to register with any national group, and theirs had not. But what about due diligence and background check? I'm not going to hunt up answers (if there are any available) to the questions asked in this article...personally I'm guessing they didn't do due diligence or check out his background. From what I'm fiding, many neighborhood watch programs aren't paid much attention to by a lot of HOAs. But they should be, as this situation has shown.

On another point:
Quote:

In an HOA meeting some weeks prior to Zimmerman's shooting of Trayvon Martin, another resident of the community was kicked out of the meeting because he complained that Zimmerman was profiling him. This strongly implies to me that the HOA knew and approved of what Zimmerman was doing:

George Zimmerman Neighbors Complained About Aggressive Tactics Before Trayvon Martin Killing
Quote:

At an emergency homeowner’s association meeting on March 1, “one man was escorted out because he openly expressed his frustration because he had previously contacted the Sanford Police Department about Zimmerman approaching him and even coming to his home,” the resident wrote in an email to HuffPost. “It was also made known that there had been several complaints about George Zimmerman and his tactics" in his neighborhood watch captain role.

The meeting was attended by Sanford Police Chief Bill Lee, the detective assigned to the investigation and an unnamed member of the city council, according to the homeowner’s association newsletter

. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/03/12/george-zimmerman-trayvon-mart
in_n_1340358.html

From all of this, it looks like the HOA may be liable...but more important, I think some of these questions will be pertinent at his trial, as well.

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Wednesday, April 18, 2012 8:37 AM

BLUEHANDEDMENACE


I saw this, and was very curious as to how accurate this article is...

So I asked my friend that I used to work for, who is a real estate attorney here in S Florida, what he thought about it.

His position was that the association will most likely be found liable in a wrongful death suit, regardless of the outcome of the criminal case. A lot of that has to do with the fact that the facts of the case are not in dispute.

In Florida there is strong precedent that an association is liable for the actions of any member of the association's misbehavior when acting in any official or endorsed position on behalf of the association.

Due to the fact that the neighboorhood watch was endorsed directly by the association, that Zimmerman had made himself well known as "the person to call" AND the fact that no guidelines were in place as to what Zimmerman was and was not permitted to do, there is a high likelihood that the association will be found liable in Martin's death, primarily becuase they did not have guidelines preventing Zimmerman from carrying a firearm, it can be shown that they helped to create the situation which led to Martin's death.

The threshold for damages in a civil case is significantly lower than proving what Zimmerman is guilty of in a criminal court.

Those homeowners are pretty well fucked, and will end up getting assessed for legal bills as a result of this, even if they do get lucky and end up being found not liable.

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Wednesday, April 18, 2012 8:49 AM

HERO


There is no liability for the Association.

Lets say the fella next door murders his wife, are you liable? No. How about your home owners association? No.

H

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Wednesday, April 18, 2012 8:50 AM

BLUEHANDEDMENACE


Hero, u r missing the part where he is acting in an official capacity for the association.

Your analogy has zero to do w this fact.

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Wednesday, April 18, 2012 8:56 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


C'mon Blue, you didn't really expect him to UNDERSTAND the law, did you? Silly man...

Let's remember Hero's ignorance when the civil trial ends the way every lawyer asked about it says it will: With liability on the part of the HOA.



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Wednesday, April 18, 2012 9:13 AM

STORYMARK


Quote:

Originally posted by BLUEHANDEDMENACE:
Hero, u r missing the part where he is acting in an official capacity for the association.

Your analogy has zero to do w this fact.



Hero isn't real fond of facts when it comes to this case - he has made that very clear.

"Goram it kid, let's frak this thing and go home! Engage!"

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Wednesday, April 18, 2012 9:26 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


I kinda got that...I actually haven't found him to have any fondness for facts on ANY issue, my ownself...



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Wednesday, April 18, 2012 10:27 AM

OONJERAH



I know a Hero of Canton who posts on the Browncoats forum and is
also a conservative. I first assumed the FFF & BC Heros are the
same person. Guess I was wrong.



. . . . .The worst and most frequent consequence of paranoia is that it's self-fulfilling.


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Wednesday, April 18, 2012 10:30 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Didja catch our Hero of Canton on Castle? Funny to see their roles reversed...



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Wednesday, April 18, 2012 12:15 PM

OONJERAH


No TV. But I might get it next year on NetFlix.

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Wednesday, April 18, 2012 12:25 PM

PIRATENEWS

John Lee, conspiracy therapist at Hollywood award-winner History Channel-mocked SNL-spoofed PirateNew.org wooHOO!!!!!!


As captain of the HOA Neighbor Watch, that explains why he called 911 50 times that month.

Jus doin his job in a high-crime area.

Kid got stoopid, cost him his life.

However, the HOA should have hired private security wearing uniforms. HOAs typically are too cheap to do that, so they give free rent to one local cop to park his govt patrol car, as if that scares the crooks away.

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Wednesday, April 18, 2012 12:50 PM

MINCINGBEAST


Quote:

Originally posted by Hero:
There is no liability for the Association.

Lets say the fella next door murders his wife, are you liable? No. How about your home owners association? No.

H



Stick to the criminal law, counselor.


Your analogy is inapposite. If Zimmerman was the agent of the HOA, its not inconceivable that a bottom-feeding plaintiffs attorney could craft a passable theory of liability. "He was acting on your behalf, you had a duty to supervise, etc..." Not that I would buy that for a minute.


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Wednesday, April 18, 2012 1:43 PM

HERO


Quote:

Originally posted by BLUEHANDEDMENACE:
Hero, u r missing the part where he is acting in an official capacity for the association.


Was he?

What capacity? Is it an official association job? Paid? Contract? Was he on duty? What were the hours of his shift?

Is his job provided for in the by-laws? Did the board hire or appoint him?

No, he was a volunteer and I guarantee that there is no community watch in the by-laws.

Why? Insurance. No insurance company is going to insure an association that creates and thus is lable for a neighborhood watch. Why? Because some fella might shoot a kid and get everyone sued.

This watch was an informal voluntary random association. There is nothing to sue.

It's like me...I rescue puppies. The association knows I rescue puppies. If my puppy bites someone is the association liable?

Nope.

H

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Wednesday, April 18, 2012 2:37 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by Storymark:
Quote:

Originally posted by BLUEHANDEDMENACE:
Hero, u r missing the part where he is acting in an official capacity for the association.

Your analogy has zero to do w this fact.



Hero isn't real fond of facts when it comes to this case - he has made that very clear.

"Goram it kid, let's frak this thing and go home! Engage!"




"Hero" here isn't real fond of facts when it comes to ANY case.

"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill

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Wednesday, April 18, 2012 3:27 PM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by HERO:

This watch was an informal voluntary random association. There is nothing to sue.


In this I happen to sort of agree with you, but watch, the law will be 'massaged' to make them liable. It'll go something like this: "You did not discourage and actively encouraged Zimmerman in his exploits, therefore you are de-facto although somewhat oblique yet markedly and decidedly tangential participants in said loss of life."
See, they didn't tell this idiot to go shoot anyone that he needed to to keep from pissing his pants. Some even complained about this fool. Yet he was not told to stop. The dopes controlling the board assumed he had a modicum of intelligence. That assumption will end up costing them, even if Zimm is just slapped on the wrists with involuntary manslaughter, and why? Because there's money to be made here. CREAM*, dude. You know that.


*Cash Rules Everything Around Me

Chrisisall, wearing a frilly Mal thing on his head, and ready to shoot unarmed, full-body armoured Operatives

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Wednesday, April 18, 2012 3:53 PM

RIONAEIRE

Beir bua agus beannacht


My best friend Jennifer lives in FL. One thing she's told me that is different than OR is how the Home Owners Asoc.s there are a big thing. Here in OR no one really thinks much about them, but in FL they're hot stuff, every neighborhood has one and they have a lot of power.

I assume you're my pal until you let me know otherwise.

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya.

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Wednesday, April 18, 2012 4:40 PM

OONJERAH


Quote Riona: "in FL they're [the Home Owners Asoc.s] hot stuff,
every neighborhood has one and they have a lot of power."

Not necessarily brain power?

If they are so prevalent & popular, then by now, practical
standards have been established. (Yes/No?)
Failure to adopt same could be bad for The Retreat at Twin
Lakes HOA.



. . . . .The worst and most frequent consequence of paranoia is that it's self-fulfilling.


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Thursday, April 19, 2012 4:31 AM

FREMDFIRMA


Well, folks - you have to remember ole Zero there is a prosecutor, which means he's used to playing to a set of people deliberately kept in the dark, purged of anything remotely resembling independant thought, and then spoon feeding them cherry picked evidence and testimony to lead them by the nose to the conclusion he wants them to reach...
Only, he seems to forget that around here, he doesn't GET to cherry pick the evidence, the testimony, doesn't GET to keep us ignorant of everything he don't spoon-feed us, probably cause playing a rigged game with a stacked deck has made him sloppy and lazy when it comes to a level playing field, since his reflexive assumptions get in his way here.

Which is why arguing with us tends to end up with his ass kicked up between his ears, but no harm done, it's not like there was anything up there in the way to begin with.

PS. I despise HOA's - unelected pricks who think they can run your life for you, pumped up egotists who have a little trouble realizing that they have no authority over people who have no contract with them...
See, when my ex bought that house, somewhere in there they failed to obtain or even elicit her consent or membership in the HOA, simply assuming they had it - they don't, never did, never will, implied or otherwise, and got their heads HANDED to them, by me (back when we were still together) the one and only time they ever tried to press the issue, and being much smarter than the City Council (which eventually got usurped and ejected, some of you might recall) left her the hell alone about it forever after.

-Frem

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Thursday, April 19, 2012 4:52 AM

BLUEHANDEDMENACE


Heh, thats pretty slick Frem, but sadly would never fly in Florida.

Down here, if a community has an association, you simply are not able to purchase in that community and NOT be a member of the association. Not all communities have associations, but the ones that do, they are fairly powerful in terms of what they can regulate and get away with.

There is some difference between HOAs and condo associations and how they are run, but all of the officers ARE elected every year....my buddy often gets involved in recall fights in communities when one group of homeowners wants the current board disposed of...it makes for some seriously entertaining battles, you wouldnt believe some of the shenanigans people try and get away with...well, U might Frem, but most wouldnt.

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Thursday, April 19, 2012 5:15 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Quote:

Did the board hire or appoint him?
They appointed him, and it was an official position created by the HOA, if an unpaid one:
Quote:

What due diligence did the HOA undertake before appointing Zimmerman to a position of “Neighborhood Watch Captain”?
and
Quote:

As the only person to volunteer when the homeowners association wanted to organize a community watch, Zimmerman was appointed coordinator by his neighbors, according to Wendy Dorival, Neighborhood Watch organizer for the Sanford Police Department. The February 2012 homeowner association newsletter requested that crime victims "call our captain, George Zimmerman" after calling the police.
That's a pertinent point; he was not only appointed by the HOA, they sent around notices that he was officially the neighborhood watch captain. I think that makes them liable...we'll have to see how it works out, because I'm pretty sure the Martin family will sue. I sure as hell would! And I've no doubt the Martin family's lawyer is advising them to. In my google search, every attorney, etc., who wrote an article about it came to the determination the HOA would be held responsible.

My search found numerous mentions of the fact Blue mentioned, too; that to buy INTO the neighborhood, people have to be part of the HOA. (By "down here", did you mean Florida, Blue?)



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Thursday, April 19, 2012 5:31 AM

FREMDFIRMA


Quote:

Originally posted by BLUEHANDEDMENACE:
Heh, thats pretty slick Frem, but sadly would never fly in Florida.

Down here, if a community has an association, you simply are not able to purchase in that community and NOT be a member of the association. Not all communities have associations, but the ones that do, they are fairly powerful in terms of what they can regulate and get away with.

There is some difference between HOAs and condo associations and how they are run, but all of the officers ARE elected every year....my buddy often gets involved in recall fights in communities when one group of homeowners wants the current board disposed of...it makes for some seriously entertaining battles, you wouldnt believe some of the shenanigans people try and get away with...well, U might Frem, but most wouldnt.


10 Things a Homeowners Association Won't Tell You
http://loan.yahoo.com/m/primer13.html

Oh I know how they work - which is why the manner in which we purchased sidestepped that little problem before they were even aware the property had changed hands, I had to work REAL fast to pull that off though, normally such a purchase takes a while, and it certainly usually takes more than six hours - but I had fill-in-the-blank boilerplate with me and legally vetted, INCLUDING a provision that IF the loan was at any time sold or transferred to Citigroup that it would constitute breach of the whole and invalidate the contract completely...
Of course, that was the first thing they did - only it'd be less expensive to pay the loan in full than try to enforce that provision, which I wish I'd known at the time, and also there was no application, nor mention of a homeowners organization (by design) and people really oughta READ shit before they sign it, oughten they ?

I'm kinda notorious regarding contracts....

What was funny about it was when the HOA did come over and start something over me removing old glory and running the black banner up that pole (till I removed the pole entire) THEY were smart enough to realize some things are best left well enough alone... they even stayed the hell OUT of that whole City Council fiasco despite it taking a chunk out of their graft when the budget got re-written cause they were smart enough to see they'd get that and more back on the taxes end of it without having to say a word or lift a finger - I can't say I liked em, but they never did a damn thing to annoy me once they became aware they had no right to, so while I don't exactly have warm fuzzies for folks who's nature by default is to meddle, they never did not one thing out of line to me or anyone else that I am aware of, so I give em a pass on that.

-Frem

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Thursday, April 19, 2012 5:32 AM

BLUEHANDEDMENACE


Absolutely correct Niki.

The case law clearly states that implied representation is enough for liability, and Zimmerman in this case is far more than only "implied" as their representative. He was actively supported, his activities were well known, and, as u mentioned, publicized in official association notices, as well as discussed at board meetings, for which there will be (or should be, and their lack would be a blow against the association, not for) minutes from the meetings which attest to that fact.

As i mentioned, when I asked my friend about this case, he was able to cite off the top of his head (it is his area of practice) two cases with similar circumstances, though much lower stakes, where associations were found to be liable for the actions of "implied representatives" which caused damage to another party.

So yeah, I really feel for the other homeowners, who ultimately had little to nothing to do with putting Zimmerman on their streets, but could well end up paying out the nose because of this incident. It isnt really fair to them, but it aint exactly fair to Martin and his family either, now is it?

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Thursday, April 19, 2012 5:36 AM

BLUEHANDEDMENACE


Frem, I would be fascinated to see how u pulled that off in the contract. Those kinds of maneuverings were always my favorite part of working in RE and RE law.

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Thursday, April 19, 2012 5:40 AM

FREMDFIRMA


Quote:

Originally posted by BLUEHANDEDMENACE:
Frem, I would be fascinated to see how u pulled that off in the contract. Those kinds of maneuverings were always my favorite part of working in RE and RE law.


I simply did not include it - and they never thought to look for it - ADDING stuff, like the provision against the mortgage transfer, obvious and draws attention to itself (this was in part the intention) but omission, much harder to look for what is NOT there, especially when you have that whole mortgage-transfer thing yanking their chain and drawing their attention off scrutinizing the actual contract, since that was added as a whole seperate provision in and of itself, cause if I included it directly it woulda lead to more scrutiny of that document.

Rev very much enjoys reminding people I've worked more people over in my life with Ms-Office than I ever did with a tire iron...

-Frem

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Thursday, April 19, 2012 5:44 AM

BLUEHANDEDMENACE


Quote:

Originally posted by FREMDFIRMA:

Rev very much enjoys reminding people I've worked more people over in my life with Ms-Office than I ever did with a tire iron...

-Frem



LOVE LOVE LOVE that line!

That might just become a slogan on my buddy's wall, right next to the split picture where one side says "Large print giveth, small print taketh away" and the other one says, "If it werent for attorneys, we wouldn't need attorneys"

Also, that is very strong Re: the contract, down here the condo or homeowner's addendum is pretty much standard with he contract, everybody knows its coming.

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Thursday, April 19, 2012 6:04 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


I love that "large print" slogan, that's great! I guess I appreciate it more because of my own eyesight--I was officially "blind" without glasses or contacts all my life, until cataract surgery made one eye "normal". I've been putting off doing the other eye, because I don't want to lose the incredible close-up vision I get when I pop the contact; it's kind of like a microscope, and comes in very handy for reading small print on medicine bottles and removing ticks from my dogs (or in the case of yesterday, my husband)!

Okay, there was "down here" again; where IS "down here"??

As to attorneys, by the way, I worked for them most of my career, and was amused that THEY know more lawyer jokes than anyone else, and thoroughly enjoy telling them. I appreciated their ability to be self-deprecating...or maybe each one thought it applied to "other attorneys"!

When it comes to
Quote:

I really feel for the other homeowners, who ultimately had little to nothing to do with putting Zimmerman on their streets, but could well end up paying out the nose because of this incident. It isnt really fair to them
I agree, to a point. But given there had been complaints about his over-zealousness at HOA meetings, I think if I'd lived there I would have spoken up about whether his background had been checked and if he was really the right person for the job. Too few people pay attention to the details of stuff like this, to their eventual detriment, unfortunately.



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Thursday, April 19, 2012 6:14 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...






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Thursday, April 19, 2012 7:30 AM

BLUEHANDEDMENACE


Hey Niki, i mentioned on one or two of the above posts that I live down in South Florida...which is why i feel like what my attorney friend tells me is pretty damn reliable, hes working off the exact same case law that any future action would be.

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Thursday, April 19, 2012 8:06 AM

HERO


Quote:

Originally posted by Oonjerah:
If they are so prevalent & popular, then by now, practical
standards have been established. (Yes/No?)
Failure to adopt same could be bad for The Retreat at Twin
Lakes HOA.


They can tell you not to put up a sign or to cut your grass.

But suppose you are right:

Rule 52: No homeowner can walk outside their home after dark or contact the police to report suspicious activity.

Yeah, I'm sure you'll find that in a lot of Florida by-laws.

H

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Thursday, April 19, 2012 8:10 AM

BLUEHANDEDMENACE


Nice job ignoring all the posts with specific relevant details, Hero, and responding to the one post asking the question instead.

Its almost like you are deliberatly avoiding the issue! Oh, wait....

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Thursday, April 19, 2012 8:24 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Sorry, Blue, I read right by stuff sometimes (duh!). My sympathies; Florida is gorgeous, but sometimes the mentality...

Hero ignoring relevant details? Surely not!



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Thursday, April 19, 2012 9:39 AM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by Hero:


Rule 52: No homeowner can walk outside their home after dark or contact the police to report suspicious activity.

Yeah, I'm sure you'll find that in a lot of Florida by-laws.




Chrisisall, wearing a frilly Mal thing on his head, and ready to shoot unarmed, full-body armoured Operatives

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Thursday, April 19, 2012 10:51 AM

HERO


Quote:

Originally posted by BLUEHANDEDMENACE:
Nice job ignoring all the posts with specific relevant details, Hero, and responding to the one post asking the question instead.

Its almost like you are deliberatly avoiding the issue! Oh, wait....


I've already given the final word on the issue. The Association is not liable.

If you guys want to continue your emotional gushing based on senseless rummor and nonsense that's up to you.

I've delt with Homeowner Associations. They are very powerful but very limited and their liability is also very limited. Naturally that's before you EVER get to the merits of the case. For example, Martin assumed the risk of his injury by entering into the gated community of which he was not a member.

H

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Thursday, April 19, 2012 11:06 AM

M52NICKERSON

DALEK!


Quote:

Originally posted by HERO:
Quote:

Originally posted by BLUEHANDEDMENACE:
Hero, u r missing the part where he is acting in an official capacity for the association.


Was he?



Yes..."When George Zimmerman prowled through the neighborhood looking for suspicious people in The Retreat at Twin Lakes in central Florida, he wasn’t acting totally out of the blue. Zimmerman was officially identified as the captain of the neighborhood watch in a newsletter distributed by the community’s homeowners association. Homeowners with concerns were encouraged to contact Zimmerman “so he can be aware and help address the issue with other residents.”"

and also..."Even if Zimmerman hadn’t been officially designated watch captain, there is a chance the homeowner’s association could still be found liable for Martin’s death. “Speaking in general terms, homeowner’s associations may be exposed to tort liability for incidents that happen in their communities,” Wilcox says. “In fact, in 2004 a Florida appellate court found a homeowners association partially liable for the wrongful death of a resident in her home. The liability is based on whether the HOA acted negligently. It will also depend on what the HOA’s obligations and duties are under the HOA’s Declaration, bylaws, and policies, and whether the HOA fulfilled their duties.”"

All from the very first link in the thread.

http://blogs.lawyers.com/2012/04/homeowners-association-could-be-liabl
e-in-trayvon-martins-death
/

So your final word is wrong Hero!




I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.

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Thursday, April 19, 2012 11:27 AM

RIONAEIRE

Beir bua agus beannacht


I found it creepy that HOAs have so much authority in FL. When my friend told me I was rather baffled why people would go for something like that. I only know one person in my city who's involved in a HOA and that's for floating houses on the Columbia at the top edge of my city.

I assume you're my pal until you let me know otherwise.

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya.

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Thursday, April 19, 2012 11:36 AM

MAGONSDAUGHTER


It's all very alien to me. Gated communities - why? Armed vigilantes patrolling your neighbourhood - why? Sounds like a horrible way to live.

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Thursday, April 19, 2012 2:34 PM

OONJERAH



Alien to me, too, out in the Boonies.

Many senior citizens live in Florida. They like to feel safe.
I don't know Florida's crime rates. Suspect it's higher than average.

Help: Couple days ago, I saw at least two articles that said basic Neighborhood
Watch guidelines say: Observe and report. Do Not carry a gun. Do not leave your
car. Do not follow suspects. (i.e., Do NOT Play Cop!) ...
I can't find those comments now.

In my youth, trained security guards rarely carried guns. Maybe that's changed.



. . . . .The worst and most frequent consequence of paranoia is that it's self-fulfilling.


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Thursday, April 19, 2012 4:03 PM

M52NICKERSON

DALEK!


The crime rate down here (FL) is not higher then other places. HOA's are popular because we have so many subdivisions. These all have common area that have to be kept up so HOAs are deeded into the properties requiring anyone who buys the home to pay the dues and follow the restrictions on the deed.

I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.

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Thursday, April 19, 2012 5:16 PM

NEWOLDBROWNCOAT


Quote:

Originally posted by Oonjerah:

Help: Couple days ago, I saw at least two articles that said basic Neighborhood
Watch guidelines say: Observe and report. Do Not carry a gun. Do not leave your
car. Do not follow suspects. (i.e., Do NOT Play Cop!) ...
I can't find those comments now.



I was just going to make a post saying that those principles were my basic understanding of the NeighborHood Watch movement, from long ago when it was just starting. I never participated, and I can't cite a source, but that's what I thought they were all about. Thass why it says Watch, like witness, not Security patrol or something.

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Thursday, April 19, 2012 5:37 PM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by Hero:

I've already given the final word on the issue.

The word is "dick'.
Thank you, God. Your "final word" means so much.

Chrisisall, wearing a frilly Mal thing on his head, and ready to shoot unarmed, full-body armoured Operatives

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Thursday, April 19, 2012 5:56 PM

HERO


Quote:

Originally posted by chrisisall:
The word is "dick'.
Thank you, God. Your "final word" means so much.


More emotional blathering.

I suggest you run yourself a nice hot bath, have a good cry, and leave the higher brain stuff to people who aren't crippled by their hormones.

It'll be ok. You've ranted enough about big bad gated communities and people wanting to help keep their neighborhoods safe. It will be alright. Shush now, take your medicine...Hero is right...Hero is right...

H

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Thursday, April 19, 2012 6:07 PM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by HERO:
Hero is right...Hero is right...


Two right turns & you're back where you started, at wrong.
Facts?
They're useless, eh?
And IF Zimmerman is found guilty, you'll find fault with it, right?
Your beliefs are a lie.
DoubleDork on you.

Chrisisall, wearing a frilly Mal thing on his head, and ready to shoot unarmed, full-body armoured Operatives

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Thursday, April 19, 2012 6:59 PM

FREMDFIRMA


Quote:

Originally posted by BLUEHANDEDMENACE:
Also, that is very strong Re: the contract, down here the condo or homeowner's addendum is pretty much standard with he contract, everybody knows its coming.


Which is why they never thought to look for it, they ASSUMED it would be there.
I get a lotta shit done by exploiting assumptions and psychological blind spots, it's kind of my MO, SOP, or whatever.

And Oojie ?
None of my people carry guns, they're authorized a "commercially available baton" but most don't even bother with that cause there's no bloody need for it...
I've got a blitzwhip (which is "commercially available" though rare) which looks like a small maglite, but that's only for the direst of emergencies and cause I am the one who responds as backup when things get sticky, and I've never had to so much as think about drawing it.
As I mentioned before there's sort of an unspoken treaty around here about not slinging lead, too, so there's that.

-Frem

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Thursday, April 19, 2012 7:11 PM

MAGONSDAUGHTER


Quote:

Originally posted by m52nickerson:
The crime rate down here (FL) is not higher then other places. HOA's are popular because we have so many subdivisions. These all have common area that have to be kept up so HOAs are deeded into the properties requiring anyone who buys the home to pay the dues and follow the restrictions on the deed.

I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.



but what is the story with the 'gated' part? Why do people feel the need to live in an excluded area?

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Friday, April 20, 2012 1:37 AM

M52NICKERSON

DALEK!


I think it is a simple play on people's fears. Those communites will taught the saftey of living there using very little facts in doing so. It is just like sell people other products they don't need, first and foremost, convince them that they do.

You also have to remember that Florida over the past 20 years has seen a huge amount of growth. It is much easier to build a gated community from scratch then it is to take an existing community and wall it up.

I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.

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Friday, April 20, 2012 2:38 AM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up


Quote:

Originally posted by Magonsdaughter:
but what is the story with the 'gated' part? Why do people feel the need to live in an excluded area?



On the days I get three or five folks coming to my door wanting to sell me siding, or replacement windows, or frozen beef, or popcorn for the local youth team/band/club, or firewood, or a duct cleaning, or a closer relationship with God, I sort'a feel the need.

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Friday, April 20, 2012 4:25 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Quote:

Martin assumed the risk of his injury by entering into the gated community of which he was not a member.
Does anyone know what psychotropics Hero is on? He doesn't even seem to know the most basic facts of the case, yet he states things like that and claims we're engaging in "emotional gushing based on senseless rummor and nonsense", when from the beginning we've all been trying to ferret out the facts. I can only figure there's something wrong with him...?

Everyone knows by now that Martin was visiting Sanford with his father, and that Trayvon was spending time with his father and the father’s girlfriend at her home at the time of the shooting. Where on earth does Hero get the idea that a visitor to the community would have to be a "member" in order to avoid risk of injury?

It's not like it was a private community where people have to sign in and out to be there, and there were no protocols for anyone to do so.
Quote:

Twin Lakes is actually not entirely gated. There is also no guard at the gate, there are no high fences. The community is just modest condos, Julison says, not protected with the electronic equivalent of a castle moat.... The short answer is no. No one ‘cleared’ anything with George Zimmerman, because no one had a duty to do so..... Unlike with real police, and real security guards, on real duty, there was nothing in the set-up, no protocol in place, to safeguard exit as well as entry. There was nothing to inform George Zimmerman of the difference between suspicious characters, on one hand, and neighbors and their guests on the other.... The Sanford Police Department letter to the community residents the day after the Feb. 26 shooting identifies Trayvon Martin, not by name, as “another resident of the community"....“There was not any sort of organized system,” said one of the residents in the news report." http://www.margieburns.com/2012/04/trayvon-martin-question-3-when-tray
von-martin-was-cleared-to-enter-the-gated-community-did-anyone-notify-neighborhood-watch/
]

It's insane to say Martin had to "be a member" of the community to walk there safely.

I guess I just have to accept that Hero is off his rocker and doesn't know squat about either the case or the law regarding it. IS he an attorney, and if so, why is he so ignorant of the law? Not important, just mystified me.
Quote:

I saw at least two articles that said basic Neighborhood Watch guidelines say: Observe and report. Do Not carry a gun. Do not leave your car. Do not follow suspects. (i.e., Do NOT Play Cop!) ...
I can't find those comments now.

Oonj, you weren't wrong, it's all over the place. From the National Neighborhood Watch Program:
Quote:

The manual, from the National Neighborhood Watch Program, states: "It should be emphasized to members that they do not possess police powers, and they shall not carry weapons or pursue vehicles. They should also be cautioned to alert police or deputies when encountering strange activity. Members should never confront suspicious persons who could be armed and dangerous."

As the article states, Zimmerman "blatantly violated major principles of the Neighborhood Watch manual" http://abcnewsradioonline.com/national-news/florida-teens-shooter-igno
red-neighborhood-watch-guidelines.html


Given neighborhood watch groups don't have to be part of the national group (and this one wasn't), nonetheless, specifically from the Sanford Police guidelines:
Quote:

Participants get on-going training in how to protect themselves and their property. Personal safety awareness, whether you are at home, in public, or in your vehicle, and knowing what “to do and not to do”
.....
What you will not do is get physically involved with any activity you report or apprehension of any suspicious persons. This is the job of the law enforcement agency. (emphasis in article)
.....
10. Remember always that your responsibility is to report crime. Do not take any risks to prevent a crime or try to make an arrest. The responsibility for apprehending criminals belongs to the police department. (emphasis in article) http://www.sanfordfl.gov/investigation/docs/NWProgramHandbook.pdf is no mention of neighborhood watch persons not carrying weapons, but he nonetheless violated the other noted tenants of the Sanford neighborhood-watch guidelines. Not carrying weapons is mentioned in numerous articles on the incident and neighborhood watches.

As to gated communities in general, we have them out here, too. I think in a number of states with high population, in many upper-middle-class neighborhoods they're not unusual. Also in some areas where crime is higher. We have gated communities in cheapo apartment complexes in one of our more crime-ridden areas. The gated communities we have out here require you to call in or have an electronic "key" to open the gates, and they are truly gated, there is no other way to get in and high fences, some with deterrents on the top. Some are really strict, with a gate keeper and people have to check in and out, others are looser, where you only have to call who you're visiting (like in many apartment buildings) to be "buzzed in". This community wasn't completely gated, you could come and go without using the main gate, so it wasn't truly a "gated community".

Around here, aside from the Canal (mentioned above), it's only upper-middle-class housing areas that have gated communities; the upper class, of course, has individual gated grounds. In the case in question,
Quote:

Twin Lakes is actually not entirely gated. There is also no guard at the gate, there are no high fences. The community is just modest condosnot protected with the electronic equivalent of a castle moat. So the Gate Access Form provided by The Retreat at Twin Lakes Homeowners Association could be considered somewhat misleading. From first cite, above
A comment to that article by someone who lives in a similar community states:
Quote:

I live in a development with gates but no guard. The gates are for vehicles only, and there is no barrier to pedestrians. The “gate access form” is just a form that is provided for residents so they can tell their visitors what buttons to push at the gate to contact for them and to order remote devices and set access numbers for their own cars. The form from the Twin Lakes development looks just like the ones we use for those purposes. There is nothing on the form provided that indicates that visitors, whether driving or walking, had to be “cleared” to be on the grounds, carry a pass, etc.
I think that covers everything since I was last here...what IS it with this "Hero" person, seriously? Does he believe he is the end-all, be-all or something? IS he a lawyer? I gotta say,
Quote:

More emotional blathering.

I suggest you run yourself a nice hot bath, have a good cry, and leave the higher brain stuff to people who aren't crippled by their hormones.

It'll be ok. You've ranted enough about big bad gated communities and people wanting to help keep their neighborhoods safe. It will be alright. Shush now, take your medicine...Hero is right...Hero is right...

Sounds an awful lot like someone else here...?



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Friday, April 20, 2012 10:30 AM

CHRISISALL


Niki, you scare Hero off threads; you know that.

Chrisisall, wearing a frilly Mal thing on his head, and ready to shoot unarmed, full-body armoured Operatives

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Friday, April 20, 2012 1:01 PM

MAGONSDAUGHTER


Thanks Niki for explaining about gated communities. We have housing developments that are kind of fenced, but they are not locked or guarded in any way. I hope we never go down that track because I think it is a terrible way to live, psychologically. It is more the norm for apartment buildings to have locks or codes to get in, but that doesn't seem as bad to me. Maybe it is just about what you are used to.

As for Neighborhood Watch schemes, I thought they were set up so that people contacted police if anything was amiss. It sounds as thought this guy or the housing a ssociation he was connected to was taking it one step further.

I guess the other cultural difference I can see is the self defence issue. Here there is the concept of 'reasonable force' when defending oneself or ones property. It would not be considered 'reasonable force' to shoot and kill an unarmed male who was not an immediate threat to your property or person, but if they had gotten into a scuffle it probably would have been 'reasonable force' to hit him or knock him to the ground.

The 'stand your ground' is very alien to me. And feels wrong.

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Friday, April 20, 2012 1:36 PM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by Magonsdaughter:

The 'stand your ground' is very alien to me. And feels wrong.

In most of America it works like this: someone can walk up to you, explain that he's going to shoot you, once, then DO it, and back away. At that point you can pursue legal damages. You are not allowed to strike him back as he poses no further threat to you (assuming you're still alive). But we CAN invade Iraq & cause all manner of death & destruction for, ummmm, some kind of reason.... Stand you ground is so we can be more like Bush- I BELIEVE you have the potential to kill me, so I can kill you.

My country is very monkeysh*t like that.... it's still the wild wild west in many ways.

Chrisisall, wearing a frilly Mal thing on his head, and ready to shoot unarmed, full-body armoured Operatives

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