REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

We are all animals, milady.

POSTED BY: CHRISISALL
UPDATED: Tuesday, May 1, 2012 06:21
SHORT URL:
VIEWED: 5919
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Sunday, April 15, 2012 10:31 AM

CHRISISALL


Y'know, this is something I think we all like to kind of ignore or forget.
Zimmerman was hunting. Martin was reacting to fight or flight. At the most basic level, Zimmerman's intention was to kill. Martin's intention was to fight an aggressor.
You can get all blistered & brimming with fancy words & legalistic bullshit, but this is what it comes down to. Predator & prey.
If ANYONE was 'standing his ground', it was Martin.
Zimmerman was the one drooling so much he couldn't obey the police & NOT pursue.
Ever get followed by some oaf-lookin' motherf**ker late at night? Damn, personally I would just have bolted & left that fat f**k in the dust. But *IF* he got close enough for me to feel immediately threatened, I'd have dropped him quick. You MUST assume your predator is armed, to survive. Martin made the mistake of being unwilling or unable to render him unconscious quickly. He was prey after all.

From my POV it was a clash of two assholes. Zimmerman was hunting with no real purpose. Martin tried an action movie response without the real life training necessary to make it work.

So, lets heap all other manner of nonsense upon this. Let's make Zimmerman the poor innocent slob that needed to shoot, let's make Martin the violent druggie street punk.
Let's interpret laws and cite precedents...

We desperately need to over complicate this as severely as possible to get as far away from the notion that we are animals as we can.

Now, where's my dead fish sandwich....?

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Sunday, April 15, 2012 12:25 PM

FREMDFIRMA



Heh, dressed up in more refined words, that's effectively what I said to begin with.
Of course, for mine own I do not at all deny an essentially feline nature, although I do take issue with being called oaf-lookin, as I am too short for oafishness... being one of them who might slink after one in the night, but having a uniform, official sanction, and no desire to harm, I think I can be forgiven that.
Of course, when the cat plays with a mouse, sometimes the mouse isn't too amused by it.


Mrrrrow?

-Frem

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Sunday, April 15, 2012 12:52 PM

OONJERAH


The Short Version

Creepy guy stalks Youth.

Youth confronts Creepy guy.

Creepy guy kills Youth.

Weirdos defend Creepy guy.

[Not mine. I saw it in my recent scannings.]


. . . . .The worst and most frequent consequence of paranoia is that it's self-fulfilling.


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Sunday, April 15, 2012 1:04 PM

OONJERAH



Quote Chrisisall: "From my POV it was a clash of two assholes. Zimmerman was
hunting with no *real purpose. Martin tried an action movie response without
the real life training necessary to make it work."
[*Changes real to legitimate.]

I do not agree that Trayvon was an asshole.
He was at the age of proving oneself, maturing, changing, where Manliness is
so prized and common sense isn't yet well developed.
Teens can make good prey.

Anyways, my guess on what we'll never know agrees with Frem. After GZ says,
"What are you doing here?" Trayvon makes a smart reply and turns to go.
That's when GZ grabs the hoodie or the arm.

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Sunday, April 15, 2012 1:05 PM

HERO


Your reasoning is without any basis in fact. It's like starting with "2" and presuming that it was "1+1" that got you there. It can't be 4-2 or 3+5-6 because 1+1 gives you what you are looking for.

You assume Zimmerman was hunting. The facts and his history suggest only observation and report. You claim he disobeyed orders, but the facts contain no orders, because dispatchers are not police and can't give orders and you assume he continued his pursuit after the dispatcher suggested otherwise, when the 911 call suggests he was returning to the mailbox area to meet police. You claim Zimmerman was drooling and out of control, but his actions suggest an intent to seek police intervention.

Martin we know little about. He was unarmed, but hardly the innocent schoolboy the left wants him to be. He was walking after dark in a neighborhood not his own wearing a hoodie...just facts here, right or wrong is subjective. He was followed and knew it. He was seen in top of Zimmerman assaulting him and was shot and killed.

As you can see the key facts are missing. How does a man go from talking on 911 seeking police assistance to being flat on his back being assaulted? The answer to that question is the difference between guilt and innocence.

It is complicated, it needs to be complicated because a man's liberty is at stake...not to mention justice for a dead young man. Animals we are not, because animals would not care. Liberty and justice have meaning and deserve consideration.

Have you considered the possibility the Martin attacked Zimmerman? A juror must consider that possibility. The prosecutor must prove beyond a reasonable doubt that not only did it not happen, but it happened as you suggested. Would you rather a different standard be applied? If so, name it...Guilty, because it had to happen the way we think...before any evidence is submitted, before any testimony is heard. No trial needed.

H

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Sunday, April 15, 2012 1:11 PM

OONJERAH



A trial is exactly what's needed.
That's what all the screaming's about.

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Monday, April 16, 2012 4:08 PM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by HERO:
Your reasoning is without any basis in fact.
You assume Zimmerman was hunting.

You know what? Fuck you. Zimmerman was without girlfriend or constructive hobby, a consummate dickhead with a self made cause. In another country, he'd have been a suicide bomber.
No, Trey was NOT clean & squeeky, but Zimm is slime with time on his hands.
Reality escapes those who never have to experience it, clearly.

Chrisisall, wearing a frilly Mal thing on his head, and ready to shoot unarmed, full-body armoured Operatives

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Monday, April 16, 2012 4:38 PM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by HERO:
Have you considered the possibility the Martin attacked Zimmerman?

And YEAH, I DID. I believe he did. That's why I called him one of the assholes. But one thing YOU, and everyone else ensconced in minutia lose sight of is that all Zimmerman had to do that night to avoid fucking up the rest of his life was stay home & watch internet porn instead of looking for trouble like fucking Batman. His CHOICE to be an asshole got an impulsive youth killed, and himself forever vilified.
The first move dictates the outcome, DORK.

Chrisisall, wearing a frilly Mal thing on his head, and ready to shoot unarmed, full-body armoured Operatives

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Tuesday, April 17, 2012 3:33 AM

CAVETROLL


The courts have the case now. I'm going to let them do their job. The fact that the prosecution has to make their charge, beyond a reasonable doubt leans heavily in Zimmerman's favor.

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Tuesday, April 17, 2012 3:35 AM

CAVETROLL


Quote:

Originally posted by chrisisall:
Quote:

Originally posted by HERO:
Your reasoning is without any basis in fact.
You assume Zimmerman was hunting.

You know what? Fuck you. Zimmerman was without girlfriend or constructive hobby, a consummate dickhead with a self made cause. In another country, he'd have been a suicide bomber.
No, Trey was NOT clean & squeeky, but Zimm is slime with time on his hands.
Reality escapes those who never have to experience it, clearly.

Chrisisall, wearing a frilly Mal thing on his head, and ready to shoot unarmed, full-body armoured Operatives



Whoah! Did Kwicko hack Chris' account?

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Tuesday, April 17, 2012 3:51 AM

KPO


Quote:

He was seen in top of Zimmerman assaulting him


Is it 'assault' if Zimmerman started the scuffle? And if Martin was acting in self-defence?

All these people (on the Right) warning against making assumptions and jumping to conclusions - and yet doing exactly that themselves...

It's not personal. It's just war.

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Tuesday, April 17, 2012 5:15 AM

STORYMARK


Quote:

Originally posted by kpo:
Quote:

He was seen in top of Zimmerman assaulting him


Is it 'assault' if Zimmerman started the scuffle? And if Martin was acting in self-defence?

All these people (on the Right) warning against making assumptions and jumping to conclusions - and yet doing exactly that themselves...

It's not personal. It's just war.



Dishonesty from the lawyer? Shock of shocks...

"Goram it kid, let's frak this thing and go home! Engage!"

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Tuesday, April 17, 2012 5:51 AM

FREMDFIRMA


Quote:

Originally posted by CaveTroll:
The courts have the case now. I'm going to let them do their job. The fact that the prosecution has to make their charge, beyond a reasonable doubt leans heavily in Zimmerman's favor.


Well, that's by design, innocent till proven guilty - although I would have preferred a Grand Jury to determine whether or not it was warranted to actually bring a case, save that Florida reserves that only for specific charges, but I think it should be a matter of procedure in any shooting however justified or not, in order to avoid problems exactly of this nature.

Now mind you I have my opinion, but there's a difference between "guilty as hell" in a moral sense as opposed to a legal sense, the latter of which isn't mine to determine, but rather the baliwick of courts and why we have em - something kind of subverted initially by a lack of adherence to proper procedure which smelled all kinds of fishy and should have infernal, err... internal affairs all up in arms and investigating as well.

None too concerned about the legal end since I think Zimmermans own mouth and ego are gonna be the prosecutions very best friend - but again, ain't mine to say, and despite my ire and disgust with the man and his conduct, I would begrudingly prefer he walk than our justice system become any more of a railroad than it already is, cause too damn many people take too much shit over defending themselves these days even when it's obvious, and certain factions on both "sides" of the gun issue have been using this case as an excuse to front their agendas...
IMHO it didn't have shit to do with guns or stand-ground or none of that anyways, but those with agendas are gonna push em with any excuse, sure - but better that such agendas stay the hell out of that courtroom, cause they got no damn place there.

Morally now - far as I am concerned, the moment Zimmerman stepped outta that car and decided on pursuit/confrontation in defiance of common sense, good advice and proper procedure, all that followed was on him, period.

-Frem

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Tuesday, April 17, 2012 6:57 AM

HERO


Quote:

Originally posted by chrisisall:
...all Zimmerman had to do that night to avoid fucking up the rest of his life was stay home & watch internet porn instead of looking for trouble like fucking Batman. His CHOICE to be an asshole got an impulsive youth killed, and himself forever vilified.
s


So, all the law abiding citizens should stay home and lock their doors.

Crisisall...are you a coward or do you just want everyone else to be one? Zimmerman was walking in his own neighborhood. No law against that.

Actually I understand what you are saying. You want Zimmerman to be responsible, but the facts don't support you so your holding him to an absurd standard that you would never hold yourself to. It's the only way you can reconcile your emotional needs to your rational understanding.

Here's an example 3= x + y. It's like saying 1+1= 2, but the answer is 3. Rather than change your calculation to fit the answer you say 1+1=3 because 3 and 2 are the same if you only take 1 away therefore the emotional answer is 2...

H

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Tuesday, April 17, 2012 7:02 AM

HERO


Quote:

Originally posted by kpo:
Quote:

He was seen in top of Zimmerman assaulting him


Is it 'assault' if Zimmerman started the scuffle? And if Martin was acting in self-defence?

All these people (on the Right) warning against making assumptions and jumping to conclusions - and yet doing exactly that themselves...


You make a good point. But self defense is an affirmative defense, so he's still assaulting him. But that's a legal distinction.

I note for the record that if Martin is arrested for assault, Zimmerman's story plus the witnesses and the injury would guarantee conviction. Given these facts martin, if not shot, woud be the one on hs way to prison.

I also note you can have mutual assaults.

H

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Tuesday, April 17, 2012 7:16 AM

STORYMARK


Quote:

Originally posted by HERO:
Quote:

Originally posted by chrisisall:
...all Zimmerman had to do that night to avoid fucking up the rest of his life was stay home & watch internet porn instead of looking for trouble like fucking Batman. His CHOICE to be an asshole got an impulsive youth killed, and himself forever vilified.
s


So, all the law abiding citizens should stay home and lock their doors.

H



How about NOT stalk strangeres with a loaded gun?

"Goram it kid, let's frak this thing and go home! Engage!"

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Tuesday, April 17, 2012 7:53 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by CaveTroll:
Quote:

Originally posted by chrisisall:
Quote:

Originally posted by HERO:
Your reasoning is without any basis in fact.
You assume Zimmerman was hunting.

You know what? Fuck you. Zimmerman was without girlfriend or constructive hobby, a consummate dickhead with a self made cause. In another country, he'd have been a suicide bomber.
No, Trey was NOT clean & squeeky, but Zimm is slime with time on his hands.
Reality escapes those who never have to experience it, clearly.

Chrisisall, wearing a frilly Mal thing on his head, and ready to shoot unarmed, full-body armoured Operatives



Whoah! Did Kwicko hack Chris' account?




Sorry, no. My insults tend to be a bit more indirect. Be pretty rare for me to throw a "Fuck you!" at anyone.

I can see how you got confused, though. ;)

"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill

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Tuesday, April 17, 2012 7:54 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Zimmerman was walking in his own neighborhood. No law against that.


That's exactly what Trayvon Martin was doing, too.

He got murdered for doing so.

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Tuesday, April 17, 2012 7:55 AM

STORYMARK


Pretty telling when the "courteous to a fault" Chrisisall looses it like that. Even the gregarious have their limits when it comes to wingnut BS.

"Goram it kid, let's frak this thing and go home! Engage!"

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Tuesday, April 17, 2012 8:44 AM

KPO


Quote:

Given these facts martin, if not shot, woud be the one on hs way to prison.

You've ruled out that Martin was acting in self-defense? Or is it not ok to punch someone in self-defense - but ok to shoot them?

Consider this scenario, which (correct me if I'm wrong) fits with the witness statements: Zimmerman catches up to Martin and grabs hold of him. They wrestle, and fall onto the grass, Zimmerman still holding onto Martin. They roll on the grass; Martin manages to get on top and punches Zimmerman in the face, and thus manages to break free. Zimmerman draws his gun and shoots Martin.

In this scenario it seems to me Martin was acting in self-defense, but Zimmerman wasn't.

It's not personal. It's just war.

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Tuesday, April 17, 2012 9:04 AM

PIZMOBEACH

... fully loaded, safety off...


A lot will be learned from the path of the bullet, definite CSI time.

Scifi movie music + Firefly dialogue clips, 24 hours a day - http://www.scifiradio.com

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Tuesday, April 17, 2012 10:38 AM

HERO


Quote:

Originally posted by Storymark:
How about NOT stalk strangeres with a loaded gun?


Talking to strangers with an unloaded gun is bad tactics.

I would suggest one of the following:

1. Not talk to strangers (which is gun neutral).
2. Talk, but have a loaded gun.
3. Talk, but have no gun.

H

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Tuesday, April 17, 2012 10:45 AM

HERO


Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:
That's exactly what Trayvon Martin was doing, too.

He got murdered for doing so.


The evidence does not reflect that he was murdered for walking in his own neighborhood. One, it was not his neighborhood. Two, he was shot while fighting with Zimmerman...fighting is not walking. You'll note that walking merely resulted in notification of police. Three, while he might have been killed, there has been no evidence presented or finding that he was murdered.

H

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Tuesday, April 17, 2012 10:54 AM

HERO


Quote:

Originally posted by Storymark:
Pretty telling when the "courteous to a fault" Chrisisall looses it like that. Even the gregarious have their limits when it comes to wingnut BS.


He gets emotional once in a while. He hates it when I do a point by point deconstruction of his emotional and somewhat absurd propositions. He can be calm and reasonable...but he started this whole topic from a very bad emotional place.

He needs to step back and consider the big picture. I'm not asking he support and defend Zimmerman...I don't do that...I'm asking him to consider that Zimmerman not on can be innocent but IS innocent until proven guilty and that the evidence as presented thus far does not support such a finding.

A subjective emotional rush to judgement is exactly what we must guard against. Its why we have juries and courts instead of trees and nooses. Our system is far from perfect...but it is far superior to some fella screaming "string 'em up" and everybody just going along cause he must be guilty.

H

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Tuesday, April 17, 2012 11:09 AM

HERO


Quote:

Originally posted by kpo:
Consider this scenario, which (correct me if I'm wrong) fits with the witness statements: Zimmerman catches up to Martin and grabs hold of him. They wrestle, and fall onto the grass, Zimmerman still holding onto Martin. They roll on the grass; Martin manages to get on top and punches Zimmerman in the face, and thus manages to break free. Zimmerman draws his gun and shoots Martin.


I've tried this case several times.

Man claims kid attacked him. Physical injuries, eyewitness statements. Kid has record, man does not. Kid goes to jail...any good defense lawyer pleads that one out, its not worth a trial.

Say kid claims self defense. Ok, his word against man's word plus injuries plus eyewitnesses. Ok, again...man, no record, kid record. In order to claim self defense kid testifies. I cross on his record and overall story (going home, skittles, not his neighborhood, hoodie). Kid goes to jail...but appeals because any good defense lawyer knows you can't put the kid on the stand (ie ineffective assistance).

All that before we ever get to who was what race. In fact race makes it more grey and in Martin's favor, not less. Now Martin claims Zimmerman made racial comment or black person on the jury will not convict under any circumstances or the 'I was a poor black child so hold me to a lesser standard because I'm incapable of behaiving as a law abiding way'...which is a racist defense and one I've heard by more then one African American lawyer (or a variation such as black rage).

I hate a racist defense which I only seem to get from African-Americans. I've never heard a latino or Asian or Muslim try to claim they should be held to a lesser standard because of their race...why is that? Maybe 400 years of whatever make them think they deserve a free pass...or maybe its just another excuse for bad behaivor.

H

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Tuesday, April 17, 2012 11:41 AM

MAGONSDAUGHTER


Quote:

Originally posted by HERO:


Have you considered the possibility the Martin attacked Zimmerman? A juror must consider that possibility. The prosecutor must prove beyond a reasonable doubt that not only did it not happen, but it happened as you suggested. Would you rather a different standard be applied? If so, name it...Guilty, because it had to happen the way we think...before any evidence is submitted, before any testimony is heard. No trial needed.

H



Isn't a trial what people were calling for? Isn't a trial the best way to assess what happened?

There were those who thought that Zimmerman should not be subjected to a trial. I thought you were one of them.

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Tuesday, April 17, 2012 12:31 PM

OONJERAH


Posts #7 & 8 above sure don't sound like the Chrisisall I know and love.

Quote Hero: "Two, he was shot while fighting with Zimmerman...fighting is not walking."

According to 911 recordings, Trayvon was shot while pleading for his life.
Most of us don't have enough wind to plead and fight at the same time.
That recording should nail Zimmerman.

Hero, I knew you were arrogantly judgemental. But pitiless and too bigoted
to see facts or reason? That's kinda new to me.



. . . . .The worst and most frequent consequence of paranoia is that it's self-fulfilling.


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Tuesday, April 17, 2012 12:47 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!



I think it was a bad situation turned tragic w/ the unnecessary death of a 17 yr old.

Then, the bad stuff was made even worse, w/ the ultimate culmination of a ridiculous charge of 2nd degree murder.

This can't / won't stick in any legitimate court. Manslaughter would have been the better charge. That 'might' have had a shot.

When the jury can't come back w/ the expected / hoped for verdict, then we'll have Rodney King riots, all over again.





" We're all just folk. " - Mal

" AU, that was great, LOL!! " - Chrisisall

"The world is a dangerous place. Not because of the people who are evil; but because of the people who don't do anything about it." - Albert Einstein


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Tuesday, April 17, 2012 1:02 PM

HERO


Quote:

Originally posted by Oonjerah:
According to 911 recordings, Trayvon was shot while pleading for his life.
Most of us don't have enough wind to plead and fight at the same time.
That recording should nail Zimmerman.


The 911 tapes are powerful pieces of evidence.

In those tapes you hear a garbled voice in the background screaming for help. Some people claim it is Martin, others Zimmerman. The caller does not know...but the eyewitness says its Zimmerman. Further review by experts is needed and it's possible that there will never be a consensus.

H

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Tuesday, April 17, 2012 1:36 PM

CATPIRATE


"Colt makes everyman equal". First you maybe right Chrisisall. Well you don't need to obey cops. You are allowed to protect personal and property rights. The problem I see here is keep an eye on the dude but call it in and stay by the car. Now kids are lazy taking short cuts no big deal. Blacks don't know what "NO" means. Blacks are emotional and react with violence in most arguements. Liberal media makes the black dude look like a little boy. The jew mexican a white fat man. This is the media trying to inflame the case. The young black dude should not have been shot. But he could have help himself if he knew he couldn't beat up Zimmerman might of thought twice but he didn't know the dude had a gun. Zimmerman should have given Travon a way out instead of baiting him into a trap. When you box an animal it turns. I don't think this case is in the spirit of what the Florida law Stand Your Ground was intended for.

The South won't vote for a Mormon. Obama will win in a landslide. The "O" became a globalist during the Arab Spring if you listen to his speech in London. So Bush, Clinton, Bush, Obama. Same ole same ole. Even the same advisors who scammed the taxpayers.

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Tuesday, April 17, 2012 1:46 PM

RIONAEIRE

Beir bua agus beannacht


Yeah, Chris can get real emotional sometimes, I guess most of us can really.

Hopefully things will come out right, whatever right is, through due process and the trial. I'm glad it has gone to trial so it can be sorted out.

I assume you're my pal until you let me know otherwise.

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya.

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Tuesday, April 17, 2012 1:55 PM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by Hero:
I'm asking him to consider that Zimmerman not on can be innocent but IS innocent until proven guilty and that the evidence as presented thus far does not support such a finding.


It's nice to know that next time I'M out looking for bad kids to target & apprehend (because I'M the ONLY one who can) and some kid I'm following on foot close enough that he knows I'm following him turns around to ask me why I'm following him in an angry voice that startles me enough to reach for my gun, and the kid, fearful that if he turns I'd shoot him in the back rushes me & knocks me to the ground & I'm able to bust a cap in his a*s anyway, that YOU will be right there saying that I'm innocent as far as the evidence shows...
Thanks Hero, I *hate* being responsible for that which I set in motion.

Chrisisall, wearing a frilly Mal thing on his head, and ready to shoot unarmed, full-body armoured Operatives

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Tuesday, April 17, 2012 2:28 PM

OONJERAH



Quote Hero: "Kid has record, man does not." . . . ?!

Quote Oonjerah: "Weirdos defend Creepy guy."


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Tuesday, April 17, 2012 4:16 PM

KPO


Quote:

The South won't vote for a Mormon.

Wait and see what running mate he picks.

It's not personal. It's just war.

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Wednesday, April 18, 2012 6:57 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Interesting. Yes, ZIMMERMAN is the one with the record--for attacking a policeman, of all things. Martin had no police record whatsoever. Strange how that got turned around.

Second; if one chooses to go look for the interviews with "witnesses", they are contradictory; some say Martin was on top, some say Zimmerman.

The rush to judgment has been on both sides. To ME it looks like one side is accustomed to minorities getting the short end of the deal, and being racially profiled, while the other DOES racially profile (in their heads), fears minorities and refuses to believe the White guy could be the bad guy.

Let's see what comes out in court. I'm assuming there has to be evidence we don't know about for them to have come up with 2nd degree murder. And as a point, if the jury doesn't want 2nd degree murder, they can choose to go with manslaughter.

By the way, there are some interesting facts that might pertain to this which I happened across in an article questioning whether the homeowners might be found liable in a civil case. One fact that I'd like to point out is that Zimmerman wasn't "captain" of anything; he was the only one who volunteered to do neighborhood watch, there are no others there, and "captain" is a cute title they gave him, nothing more.



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Wednesday, April 18, 2012 7:39 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:

I think it was a bad situation turned tragic w/ the unnecessary death of a 17 yr old.

Then, the bad stuff was made even worse, w/ the ultimate culmination of a ridiculous charge of 2nd degree murder.

This can't / won't stick in any legitimate court. Manslaughter would have been the better charge. That 'might' have had a shot.

When the jury can't come back w/ the expected / hoped for verdict, then we'll have Rodney King riots, all over again.





" We're all just folk. " - Mal

" AU, that was great, LOL!! " - Chrisisall

"The world is a dangerous place. Not because of the people who are evil; but because of the people who don't do anything about it." - Albert Einstein





As I understand it, the current charge also carries with it the lesser included charges. They charge with the most they think they could possibly get in a best-case scenario, and then either plea it down to something more acceptable to all sides (manslaughter, negligent homicide, assault with a deadly weapon, etc.), and if they can't, they take it to a jury which can be instructed to take ALL the possible charges into account in their deliberations.

Or they could try to go for all or nothing, like they did with Casey Anthony, and lose everything.

I'm betting they'll go for lesser included charges, and plea it down to manslaughter. But it's Florida, and they're capable of any manner of crazy-ass shit.

"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill

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Wednesday, April 18, 2012 7:40 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by Hero:
Quote:

Originally posted by kpo:
Consider this scenario, which (correct me if I'm wrong) fits with the witness statements: Zimmerman catches up to Martin and grabs hold of him. They wrestle, and fall onto the grass, Zimmerman still holding onto Martin. They roll on the grass; Martin manages to get on top and punches Zimmerman in the face, and thus manages to break free. Zimmerman draws his gun and shoots Martin.


I've tried this case several times.

Man claims kid attacked him. Physical injuries, eyewitness statements. Kid has record, man does not. Kid goes to jail...any good defense lawyer pleads that one out, its not worth a trial.

Say kid claims self defense. Ok, his word against man's word plus injuries plus eyewitnesses. Ok, again...man, no record, kid record. In order to claim self defense kid testifies. I cross on his record and overall story (going home, skittles, not his neighborhood, hoodie). Kid goes to jail...but appeals because any good defense lawyer knows you can't put the kid on the stand (ie ineffective assistance).

All that before we ever get to who was what race. In fact race makes it more grey and in Martin's favor, not less. Now Martin claims Zimmerman made racial comment or black person on the jury will not convict under any circumstances or the 'I was a poor black child so hold me to a lesser standard because I'm incapable of behaiving as a law abiding way'...which is a racist defense and one I've heard by more then one African American lawyer (or a variation such as black rage).

I hate a racist defense which I only seem to get from African-Americans. I've never heard a latino or Asian or Muslim try to claim they should be held to a lesser standard because of their race...why is that? Maybe 400 years of whatever make them think they deserve a free pass...or maybe its just another excuse for bad behaivor.

H




You're starting with a falsehood and extrapolating from that.

Kid, no record. Man, serious record.

Run that scenario for us.

"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill

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Wednesday, April 18, 2012 7:52 AM

STORYMARK


Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:

This can't / won't stick in any legitimate court. Manslaughter would have been the better charge. That 'might' have had a shot. " We're all just folk. " - Mal



Funny, after complaining ad naseum about others pre-deciding the case.... Rappy has no problems doing it himself. Tres surprise.

"Goram it kid, let's frak this thing and go home! Engage!"

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Wednesday, April 18, 2012 8:27 AM

OONJERAH



Community meeting on Thursday to discuss Trayvon Martin tragedy =>
http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2012-04-18/news/os-trayvon-martin-
sanford-meeting-20120418_1_community-meeting-sanford-resident-city-commission-meeting


The city of Sanford has scheduled a community meeting for 6:30 p.m. Thursday
at Second Shiloh Missionary Baptist Church to give the public an opportunity
to discuss the Trayvon Martin tragedy.

"The purpose of this meeting is to engage the Sanford community in looking at
healing," City Manager Norton Bonaparte Jr. said at last week's city commission
meeting. "How do we move forward beyond the current events."

Racial tensions sparked in Sanford after 17-year-old Trayvon Martin was shot
and killed on Feb. 26 by a Neighborhood Watch volunteer. Sanford resident George
Zimmerman was arrested on April 11 and faces second-degree murder charges. He
is currently held without bail at the Seminole County Jail.

In the weeks before Zimmerman's arrest, several groups held rallies, community
marches, prayer vigils and protests, drawing worldwide attention to Sanford.

Bonaparte said he agreed to hold a community meeting on April 9 after meeting
with college students who had walked from Daytona Beach to Sanford in support
of Trayvon.





. . . . .The worst and most frequent consequence of paranoia is that it's self-fulfilling.


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Wednesday, April 18, 2012 8:35 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Just to say, I fear Rodney-King-type riots if Zimmerman is found completely "innocent", as well. The firestorm exists all over America, as long as racial stereotyping and differences in the legal treatment of minorities differs from that of Whites (which it's been proven again and again it does, nationwide) exist. It only takes a spark to ignite it. I sure hope I'm wrong.

I also think Zimmerman was wrong, but to what degree, I wouldn't venture a guess. It depends on what comes out at trial that we don't already know about.



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Wednesday, April 18, 2012 8:44 AM

HERO


Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:
Kid, no record. Man, serious record.

Run that scenario for us.


Zimmerman has no record. Martin had a record and a history of violence.

I have tried cases where the opposite was true...

H

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Wednesday, April 18, 2012 8:58 AM

STORYMARK


Quote:

Originally posted by Hero:
Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:
Kid, no record. Man, serious record.

Run that scenario for us.


Zimmerman has no record. Martin had a record and a history of violence.

I have tried cases where the opposite was true...

H



Boy, I hope you know your facts better in court, as you just flat out lied.

Martin's only record is suspension from school - no criminal record at all.

Zimmerman DOES have an arrest record, having been charged in 2005 with resisting arrest and assault on an officer.... gee, kinda sounds like a history of violence, don't it?

Once again, we see how "honest" the resident lawyer is.

"Goram it kid, let's frak this thing and go home! Engage!"

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Wednesday, April 18, 2012 9:24 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Good gawd, what univers do YOU live in???
Quote:

George Zimmerman, the neighborhood watch volunteer accused of killing 17-year-old Trayvon Martin, was previously accused of domestic violence, tussling with a police officer and speeding.

According to the documents, Zimmerman went to court in 2005 and 2006 for these incidents.

In 2005, Zimmerman was arrested and charged with “resisting officer with violence” and “battery of law enforcement officer.” He was 20 years old at the time and both charges are third-degree felonies.

According to the report, the charges were reduced to “resisting officer without violence” and then waived when he entered an alcohol education program. Accounts indicated Zimermann shoved an officer who was questioning a friend for alleged underage drinking at a bar.

In 2005, Zimmerman’s ex-fiancee, Veronica Zuazo, filed a motion for a restraining order and alleged domestic violence. Zimmerman counterfiled for a restraining order against Zuazo. Both restraining orders’ were granted.

In December 2006, Zimmerman was charged with speeding -- but the case was later dismissed when the officer failed to show up in court. http://www.wptv.com/dpp/news/state/george-zimmerman-was-arrested-befor
e-trayvon-martin-case-previously-accused-of-domestic-violence
been reported over and over and has been documented.

As to Martin:
Quote:

the shooting of an unarmed teenager with no criminal background http://speckled-axe.com/missing-discussion-trayvon-martins-murder/ on Monday, authorities confirmed to the Associated Press that Martin did not have a juvenile offender record. http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-504083_162-57404732-504083/trayvon-martin-
update-school-marijuana-suspension-no-criminal-record/
unarmed 17-year-old with no criminal record. http://www.nytimes.com/2012/04/12/us/zimmerman-to-be-charged-in-trayvo
n-martin-shooting.html
Martin was a lanky 17-year-old boy, interested in girls, computer games, sports, hip hop and going fishing with his father. He was easy-going, kind and respectful. He had no history of violence. http://www.schmidtgladstone.com/blog/the-shooting-death-of-trayvon-mar
tin-murder-or-self-defense/
any evidence, a right-wing columnist alleged that Martin assaulted a bus driver. Unlike Zimmerman, Trayvon has no documented history of violence. http://www.examiner.com/charleston-conservative-in-charleston-sc/trayv
on-martin-s-ten-day-suspension
do you get reliable information to the opposite? Please cite.

There is NO documented evidence of either violence or criminal history by Martin. There is documented evidence of Zimmerman's POLICE RECORD of violence in at least one case. I repeat: What imaginary world do you live in?!?



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Wednesday, April 18, 2012 10:10 AM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by Niki2:
I repeat: What imaginary world do you live in?!?


He lives in Heroworld, a comfy place where everything makes its own sense. But I hear he vacations in Rappyland.

Chrisisall, wearing a frilly Mal thing on his head, and ready to shoot unarmed, full-body armoured Operatives

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Wednesday, April 18, 2012 10:34 AM

OONJERAH


Quote Chrisisall: "He lives in Heroworld, a comfy place where everything makes
its own sense. But I hear he vacations in Rappyland."

Do you mean that He contributes Nothing and is only posting for Attention?
How strange and pitiful.



. . . . .The worst and most frequent consequence of paranoia is that it's self-fulfilling.


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Wednesday, April 18, 2012 10:45 AM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by Oonjerah:

Do you mean that He contributes Nothing and is only posting for Attention?

No, there have been times when Hero posted excellent thoughtful stuff, but in matters of violence, torture or killing, he tends to be a predictable authoritarian lap dog.
In this matter he simply sees Zimmerman as being closer to 'Authority' than Martin. Hence his sloppy, misguided and erroneous defense of the perp.

Chrisisall, wearing a frilly Mal thing on his head, and ready to shoot unarmed, full-body armoured Operatives

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Wednesday, April 18, 2012 5:28 PM

OONJERAH



Do Not Feed the Vicious Animal

Parker Palmer: America's Addiction to Violence =>
http://www.fetzer.org/resources/resource-detail/?resource_id=1000055

Why is America addicted to violence? Palmer explains America's addiction
to violence, illustrating through warfare, environmental degradation, and
high-stakes testing.

In this video collection, Parker J. Palmer, advisor to the Fetzer Institute
and founder of the Center for Courage and Renewal, offers insight and
wisdom on issues of relationship and individualism, the transforming of suf-
fering, and the rules and practice of inner work.

Ken H comment: "... Several years ago, I committed my life to putting
an end to violence--the violence rising from the screaming ego-mind--
and I am very much aware of the temptation to use violence to end
violence! It is, indeed, through the practice of compassion and forgive-
ness that we can end this addiction."

Oonjerah: Our expectations are too high.
Our tolerance for disappointment is too low.
We are easily led. Immature much.



. . . . .The worst and most frequent consequence of paranoia is that it's self-fulfilling.


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Wednesday, April 18, 2012 6:12 PM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by Oonjerah:
Do Not Feed the Vicious Animal



"[War] is instinctive. But the instinct can be fought. We're human beings with the blood of a million savage years on our hands! But we can stop it. We can admit that we're killers...but we're not going to kill...today. That's all it takes! Knowing that we're not going to kill...today!"

Chrisisall, wearing a frilly Mal thing on his head, and ready to shoot unarmed, full-body armoured Operatives

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Thursday, April 19, 2012 1:23 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!



Excessive violence is what happens when order breaks down in a society.



" We're all just folk. " - Mal

" AU, that was great, LOL!! " - Chrisisall

"The world is a dangerous place. Not because of the people who are evil; but because of the people who don't do anything about it." - Albert Einstein


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Thursday, April 19, 2012 3:52 AM

HERO


Quote:

Originally posted by Storymark:
Boy, I hope you know your facts better in court, as you just flat out lied.

Martin's only record is suspension from school - no criminal record at all.

Zimmerman DOES have an arrest record, having been charged in 2005 with resisting arrest and assault on an officer.... gee, kinda sounds like a history of violence, don't it?

Once again, we see how "honest" the resident lawyer is.
!"


Zimmerman's record has been widely reported...but legally he has no record. A person with the same name and age was arrested, he was never convicted of a crime and the arrest was expunged. That means it never happened...legally. Police can not consider it and it would not show up on a background check.

So, no record for Zimmerman. Martin, however, does have both an official and an in-house record. He has a drug history, a violence history, and is a suspected burglar. While he may not have been caught on something serious, yet, he is clearly someone who is on the radar of local police. I have found some people with that history seem to radiate trouble...I suspect this is the bad vibe that first drew Zimmerman's attention and concerned him enough to contact the police.

H

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