REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

Meanwhile, back in Fukushi... San Francisco

POSTED BY: SIGNYM
UPDATED: Monday, June 11, 2012 06:31
SHORT URL:
VIEWED: 1902
PAGE 1 of 2

Sunday, April 15, 2012 5:49 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.



San Francisco Bay Area milk sample has highest amount of Cesium-137 since last June — Almost double EPA’s maximum contaminant level

Quote:

The following are results for milk samples obtained from a Bay Area organic dairy where the farmers are encouraged to feed their cows local grass. We have detected I-131, Cs-134, and Cs-137 and are tracking their levels.
Potassium in Milk:
Milk Sample K-40 Activity (Bq/L) potassium content(g/L)
Sample M8 49 1.58
USDA standard(2%) 48 1.55
USDA standard(fat free) 50 1.62



www.nuc.berkeley.edu/UCBAirSampling/MilkSampling

-------------------

Cameras inserted into Reactor No 2 show almost no water in the containment vessel. Because the level of water is no higher than the suppression torus which encircles the containment vessel, the inescapable conclusion is that water is leaking out of the containment vessel into the torus and from there into the reactor building basement or into the ground. Radiation levels are so high that even radiation-hardened robots of current design can't survive long enough to do things like cut up and extract fuel for storage. The reason WHY they're focusing on Reactor No 2 is because it;s in the BEST shape. Too bad Reactor No 2 is a complete clusterf*ck because that means the other rectors are even worse.

Concern is being refocused on the Spent Fuel Pool (SFP) for Reactor No 4. As you may recall, Unit No 4 was being refueled at the time of the earthquake, so there was a whole fresh load of fuel in the SFP staged there, as well as a couple of generations of old fuel. The building was seriously damaged by the NO 3 explosion. It is now leaning at about 15 degrees away from unit No 3. Large parts of No 4 building have been removed to reduce weight, and jacks have been placed under the SFP. However, according to geologists there is a 98% chance of a M7 (or higher) earthquake occurring in the next 5 years under Fukushima. IF an earthquake occurs the SPF will either fall over or collapse, water will drain away, the fuel rods will heat up under less than an hour, the zirconium cladding will burn and we will have a nice open-air 135 TON uranium-fire, which will prevent access to... and cooling of... all of the OTHER on-site spent fuel storage systems.

www.washingtonsblog.com/2012/04/a-visual-tour-of-the-fuel-pools-of-fuk
ushima.html


If that happens, what we saw March 2011 will be child's play in terms of radiation release.

Given the potential world-wide consequences, it seems to me that every nuclear-capable nation in the WORLD should be on-site, loaning or building equipment to off-load the nuclear fuel, wall up the reactor buildings, bury them, and dig a "diaper" under the site. Why everyone involved... the IAEA, NRC, the Japanese government and every nation downwind of Fukushima (which is the USA and Canada first, but eventually the whole northern hemisphere) .... keeps on with the fiction that this is a "local" disaster that can be adequately handled by local resources is beyond me.

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Sunday, April 15, 2012 5:53 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Jezus, Sig...I'd say "thank you" for the information, but I think I don't really want to KNOW that! ;o) Thank goodness I don't drink milk...I used to practically INHALE it, but somewhere along the way stopped drinking it altogether.

The flotsam and jetsum showing up on our Coast and being added to the Garbage Patch was bad enough...

I wonder, over time, what further effects will come to light. It's hearbreaking to think this thing may end up having global effects!



NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Sunday, April 15, 2012 6:06 AM

PIZMOBEACH

... fully loaded, safety off...


Is there anything we can do? I'll go through the usual: call our reps, etc.

I assume that radiation moves more quickly than the flotsam and jetsam than Niki is referring too. If the radiation is in the milk then that seems to suggest contamination of plants going back many months - yes? Could we also assume it's gone beyond the west coast already and will just be a steady stream until the reactors are entombed?

And I will say thx though it makes me feel helpless.

Scifi movie music + Firefly dialogue clips, 24 hours a day - http://www.scifiradio.com

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Sunday, April 15, 2012 7:42 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:

San Francisco Bay Area milk sample has highest amount of Cesium-137 since last June — Almost double EPA’s maximum contaminant level

Quote:

The following are results for milk samples obtained from a Bay Area organic dairy where the farmers are encouraged to feed their cows local grass. We have detected I-131, Cs-134, and Cs-137 and are tracking their levels.
Potassium in Milk:
Milk Sample K-40 Activity (Bq/L) potassium content(g/L)
Sample M8 49 1.58
USDA standard(2%) 48 1.55
USDA standard(fat free) 50 1.62



www.nuc.berkeley.edu/UCBAirSampling/MilkSampling

-------------------

Cameras inserted into Reactor No 2 show almost no water in the containment vessel. Because the level of water is no higher than the suppression torus which encircles the containment vessel, the inescapable conclusion is that water is leaking out of the containment vessel into the torus and from there into the reactor building basement or into the ground. Radiation levels are so high that even radiation-hardened robots of current design can't survive long enough to do things like cut up and extract fuel for storage. The reason WHY they're focusing on Reactor No 2 is because it;s in the BEST shape. Too bad Reactor No 2 is a complete clusterf*ck because that means the other rectors are even worse.

Concern is being refocused on the Spent Fuel Pool (SFP) for Reactor No 4. As you may recall, Unit No 4 was being refueled at the time of the earthquake, so there was a whole fresh load of fuel in the SFP staged there, as well as a couple of generations of old fuel. The building was seriously damaged by the NO 3 explosion. It is now leaning at about 15 degrees away from unit No 3. Large parts of No 4 building have been removed to reduce weight, and jacks have been placed under the SFP. However, according to geologists there is a 98% chance of a M7 (or higher) earthquake occurring in the next 5 years under Fukushima. IF an earthquake occurs the SPF will either fall over or collapse, water will drain away, the fuel rods will heat up under less than an hour, the zirconium cladding will burn and we will have a nice open-air 135 TON uranium-fire, which will prevent access to... and cooling of... all of the OTHER on-site spent fuel storage systems.

www.washingtonsblog.com/2012/04/a-visual-tour-of-the-fuel-pools-of-fuk
ushima.html


If that happens, what we saw March 2011 will be child's play in terms of radiation release.

Given the potential world-wide consequences, it seems to me that every nuclear-capable nation in the WORLD should be on-site, loaning or building equipment to off-load the nuclear fuel, wall up the reactor buildings, bury them, and dig a "diaper" under the site. Why everyone involved... the IAEA, NRC, the Japanese government and every nation downwind of Fukushima (which is the USA and Canada first, but eventually the whole northern hemisphere) .... keeps on with the fiction that this is a "local" disaster that can be adequately handled by local resources is beyond me.




Yeah, I saw that report, too. Where water levels should be 30 feet or more, they're less than 2 feet. Radiation levels can't be accurately measured because the radiation destroys the hardened sensors before they can get a reading.

They're saying that one more significant earthquake in the area would pretty much be "the end" - for the Fukushima area, for Tokyo, for a huge swath of Japan and possibly beyond.

But "it can't happen here", or so we're told...

"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Sunday, April 15, 2012 9:44 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


I urge you to listen to this

http://fairewinds.com/content/radio-ecoshock-worst-problems-world

Arnie Gunderson is a nuclear engineer and former executive who worked for a company which made nuclear fuel bundles. If anyone knows anything about what can happen, it's him.

-----------------

The IAEA maintains a laser-like focus on N Korea and Iran, all the while staying very quiet about the three biggest dirty bombs in history continuously going off in northern Japan, as well as probable future radiologic disaster. This strange, unbalanced view - adopted en masse by advanced nuclear-capable nations- is driven by a motivation never mentioned by government spokespeople or mentioned in the polite press.

The first thing you have to realize, though, is that nuclear power is uneconomic in a pennies pe watts sense. Nuclear power would not be commercially viable except for heavy government subsidies. So why have it around? Why invest so much money in nuclear power?

Let's work our way backwards from nuclear bombs: While it is possible to build a bomb from uranium, it is also very difficult. Plutonium is the material of choice. But, you can't get plutonium from nature: It can't be mined, it can ONLY be found in, and refined from, spent nuclear fuel because it is ONLY produced in working nuclear reactors. Those nations most heavily invested in nuclear power- the USA, UK, Russia, France, Japan, China, India, and Pakistan- have also invested in nuclear fuel reprocessing. With one exception, these are the nuclear-weapons-capable nations. So the major motivation for maintaining a large roster of working nuclear reactors is to produce bomb material.

The nations which have the most to offer Japan are the ones whose military strategy depends on nuclear weapon deterrence. India needs its deterrent against Pakistan and China, China against Russia and the USA, Pakistan against India, and the USA against... well, everyone, I guess. Given that these nations are committed to nuclear weapons, that this end of military has a heavy and secretive influence on government policy, which in turn depends on "commercial" nuclear reactors for bomb material, the individual governments... and even the collective nuclear club... are very protective of nuclear power (no matter how horrific the consequences) because that is the basis of their weapons capability.



FYI- I would prolly take Alaskan salmon off the table.

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Sunday, April 15, 2012 9:17 PM

RIONAEIRE

Beir bua agus beannacht


Yikes! The Japanese government is screwing us all over by not trying harder.

I assume you're my pal until you let me know otherwise.

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya.

NOTIFY: N   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Monday, April 16, 2012 5:36 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

Originally posted by pizmobeach:
Is there anything we can do? I'll go through the usual: call our reps, etc.

I assume that radiation moves more quickly than the flotsam and jetsam than Niki is referring too. If the radiation is in the milk then that seems to suggest contamination of plants going back many months - yes? Could we also assume it's gone beyond the west coast already and will just be a steady stream until the reactors are entombed?

And I will say thx though it makes me feel helpless.



Pizmo- the radiation that has gotten here so far is by air. Iodine (radioactive or otherwise) is a gas at room temperature, and the other elements (cesium mostly, but also strontium, uranium, plutonium and so forth) are lofted into the air as particles which are so small they can be carried around the world. These particles were created during the explosions: the metals literally evaporated and when they cooled they re-condensed into micron-sized particles, a dozen or more of which would fit across a human hair. Also, during the explosion the particles were lofted very high into the air; the same would happen in an open-air zirconium fire which would be exceptionally hot and create a hot plume going into the atmosphere thousands of feet.

The particles tend to come down with rain, since they serve as condensation nuclei for raindrops. FWIW- according to the USGS the highest iodine deposition occurred over NW USA and SE Canada (very early on) and the highest cesium deposition occurred over Southern CA, but deposition was seen in Ontario Canada and NE USA down to PA, as well as intermontane USA.

Yes by all means contact your Congresspeople. There are three things I would ask for:

Enhanced monitoring and timely reporting of air, rainfall, and food (including Pacific seafood). The timeliness has sucked so far. They are following the Japanese model of communication: dribble out bad news late, well after it's possible to take preventive action. We found out- a year later- about the focus of the cesium deposition. Hillary Clinton assured the Japanese that we would not check their food products for radiation, and so to this day the FDA has no plan to check anything coming from Japan or the Pacific ocean, or anything produced in western USA.

Additional technical assistance to Japan. This is likely to be expensive, but the Japanese should be told (privately, but in no uncertain terms) that they cannot be allowed to threaten the health and safety of the rest of the world.

Eventual shut down of all nuclear reactors in the USA and a transfer of spent nuclear fuel to dry casks, Because right now, all of our spent nuclear fuel is kept on-site, just like in Japan, and a lot of it is still kept in water... just like Japan. A coolant failure at most nuclear reactors in the USA would create the same spent-fuel nightmare as in Japan.

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Monday, April 16, 2012 6:39 AM

PIZMOBEACH

... fully loaded, safety off...


Timely post - I just finished Arnie G's radio talk - fuk.
"We may luck ourselves out of this..." is not what you want to hear. Listening to him it actually sounds like we're in a worse situation. I didn't quite finish his assessment of our US cooling pools, but do I really need to? Probably not, especially when his first review of the pools in Boston were "we can fix it all and make it safe except for one thing: Money." So you know when it's Catastrophe v Money, Money will always win.
I'm going to send the link to that radio conversation around - can't hurt, means more when people hear it explained.

Thx again. I can't wait for the day when we get a president.

Scifi movie music + Firefly dialogue clips, 24 hours a day - http://www.scifiradio.com

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Monday, April 16, 2012 7:15 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Thank you for sending out the link. I like Arnie Gunderson. He is very knowledgeable but at the same time a super nice guy.

He didn't come to his position without cost. When he went public with his safety concerns, lo these many years ago, the nuclear industry sued him and he and his wife lost their house under the weight of litigation. Also, he lost his job. The guy's a hero.

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Monday, April 16, 2012 8:07 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by RionaEire:
Yikes! The Japanese government is screwing us all over by not trying harder.




" Do, or do not. There is no try " - Master Yoda.

NOTIFY: N   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Monday, April 16, 2012 8:47 AM

BYTEMITE


>_>

I'm confused. I don't know that the EPA has a Maximum Contaminant Level for either Cesium isotope. They do have one for Iodine, which is 3 picocuries/L. The detected Iodine does not exceed that, Iodine in the milk samples has been below minimum detection since last May.

I was able to find an FDA Derived Intervention level for total Cesium at about 33,000 picocuries/L. The detected Cesium in the milk here is about 3.78 picocuries/L for both isotopes, so 7.56 picocuries/L.

Not that I'd necessarily trust either account of toxicity based on the amount of industry influence on the shebang. I'm currently looking into a rough idea of dose for cesium so that I can convert and give you an idea of the equivalent dose in bananas (.1 microsievert).

I do however feel very sorry for the Japanese, this on going problem will have long term impacts on the region, and their government is not being honest with them.

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Monday, April 16, 2012 9:09 AM

BYTEMITE


Okay, I found something. 20 million bequerels is approximately 1 Sievert (approximate because the units don't quite match up).

So you have 0.14 Bq/L here, which is therefore about 0.000000007 Sieverts, or 0.07 microsieverts. Drinking 1 liter of this milk would be about like eating half a banana, radioactivity danger wise.

EDIT: Another source suggests the danger might be even less, as bananas have been measured at 3,520 pCi/kg. 1 liter of water is 1 kg of water so compare 3,520 pCi/kg to 7.56 pCi/kg.

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Monday, April 16, 2012 9:27 AM

OONJERAH



Living in the Sierra foothills of California: already contaminated to some extent ...

I will contact my gov't reps. I may even write to the local newpaper, right wing, tho it be.
But First, while I still have enough mind and health to do anything, What should I do for
personal protection?
The air-dust-rain fallout here, it is what it is.
But -
Is there any affordable way for me to detect radiation in my food at home and the food I may
buy at the store?



. . . . .The worst and most frequent consequence of paranoia is that it's self-fulfilling.


NOTIFY: N   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Monday, April 16, 2012 9:41 AM

BYTEMITE


Take every protection you want, my analysis means nothing in the long run.

I'd try here, some states have a radiation test kit you can buy for pretty cheap. Utah has Radon test kits for six dollars.

http://www.cdph.ca.gov/programs/pages/radiologichealthbranch.aspx

You might also be interested in their radiological air monitoring reports associated with the Fukushima incident:

http://www.cdph.ca.gov/programs/Documents/CDPH-RHB-RadReport-2011-4thQ
.pdf

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Monday, April 16, 2012 10:32 AM

WULFENSTAR

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg


Does this mean that Californians will be so irradiated that they won't be able to breed?

That would be terrible for the few remaining people there.

The rest... ehhh.





"None of you seem to understand. I'm not locked in here with you... YOU are locked in here with ME."

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Monday, April 16, 2012 10:33 AM

BYTEMITE


All right, you've been great, that's it for me on this thread.

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Monday, April 16, 2012 10:42 AM

OONJERAH



Tokyo food radiation safety: It's personal =>
http://articles.cnn.com/2012-03-10/asia/world_asia_japan-tokyo-radiati
on-food_1_fukushima-daiichi-radiation-fears-radiation-screening/2?_s=PM:ASIA


But for many Tokyo residents, the concern is still strong enough that they
take their food to radiation-measuring stations set up around Tokyo.

However, checking food for radiation is not cheap. "We have around five to
seven customers a day come and check their food for a fee of ¥3,500 ($42),"
says Hidetake Ishimaru, a member of Measuring Stations for Children of the
Future, a non-profit organization that sets up stations around Tokyo to test
for radiation in food.

"They will ask many questions like, 'is it okay to eat this one?'" He
acknowledges that it is not an exact science. "We cannot answer clearly."

Safecast's Franken agrees. "The government has made specific recommen-
dations, but people don't really know what to do with those, they want a
second opinion," he says.



. . . . .The worst and most frequent consequence of paranoia is that it's self-fulfilling.


NOTIFY: N   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Monday, April 16, 2012 11:54 AM

OONJERAH



Fukushima Radioactive Fallout Food Safety Petition
http://www.change.org/petitions/urgent-fukushima-radioactive-fallout-f
ood-safety-petition


Why This Is Important

THIS IS AN ACTIVE PETITION ~We are in the midst of an ongoing and seemingly
incomprehensible radiation crisis at the Fukushima Daiichi nuclear power
complex in Japan. Some are saying "this is not Chernobyl" and for that matter
it may turn out to be worse. Greenpeace released a report on March 25, 2011
which ranks the radiation leaking from Fukushima to date to be at Level 7 on
the International Nuclear Event Scale (INES) which is the the highest level
and the same as Chernobyl after that catastrophe. We must remember that this
crisis is far from over and will have serious health effects for many innocent
people, with young children and the elderly being particularly vulnerable.
The National Academies of Science issued a 2006 report on radiation exposure
that concluded that even low levels of radiation can cause human health problems,
including cancer and heart disease. And 25 years after Chernobyl, the United
Kingdom still maintains restrictions on sheep production in parts of Wales
because radioactive cesium continues to contaminate grazing lands. Now we are
learning that the water pumped in from the ocean to cool the Fukushima reactors
is flowing back to sea mixed with deadly plutonium, endangering sea life too.
Until workers can find a way to somehow stop, contain and store it, dangerous
levels of radioactivity will continue to spread to the ocean and the biosphere. ...



. . . . .The worst and most frequent consequence of paranoia is that it's self-fulfilling.


NOTIFY: N   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Monday, April 16, 2012 12:13 PM

OONJERAH



Initiative to shut California reactors fails to make November ballot =>
http://www.platts.com/RSSFeedDetailedNews/RSSFeed/ElectricPower/618567
5


A key supporter of the failed effort to gather enough signatures to place
an initiative on the California ballot in November to close the state's two
nuclear power plants said Monday that he plans to sue the state to put the
measure on the ballot.

Under the proposed initiative, Pacific Gas & Electric's Diablo Canyon and
Southern California Edison's San Onofre would be shut until the federal
government has technology that would dispose of the radioactive waste
those facilities generate.

It is similar to a state law that bars construction of new power reactors
in California until technology exists to dispose spent nuclear fuel.

Ben Davis, a supporter of the initiative, said Monday in an interview that
an analysis by the California Legislative Analyst Office, which by state
law must appear on the petition, contained "false and misleading" state-
ments that reduced support for the measure.

The LAO reported that shutting down Diablo Canyon and San Onofre would
result in rolling blackouts that would cost the state billions of dollars a year
in lost revenue and increased costs, Davis said. ...

NOTIFY: N   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Monday, April 16, 2012 12:22 PM

BYTEMITE


1) Britain is very strict with their meat and diary products, I would even say unnecessarily strict, since places in Sweden and Germany got hit a lot worse by Chernobyl and they've gone back to allowing consumption of local livestock and produce. I also know that there was a small measurable increase in down syndrome rate in Germany and Sweden attributable to Chernobyl, which were back down to normal levels by 1989.

2) Fukushima is at least 6 times worse than Chernobyl, however, most of the radiation went into the groundwater. The problem is mostly a localized one. Cesium is a heavy material. There's 6,000 miles between California and Japan. Diffusion is going to be a big factor for both air and ocean, the main concern for the US is probably going to be radioactive debris and fish.

3) I never said that it wouldn't be bad for the Japanese. I know people over there, I'm concerned.

4) I don't like nuclear power at ALL, really, but... Data. What is the data? What is the air monitoring data for fallout from the disaster, and what is the data for the washed up debris? I know the air monitoring data has not detected much. There is a lot of worry about the radioactivity, but I haven't seen data for actual indications of there being particularly dangerous levels of radiation in the US.

5) I linked you CalEPA for information if you want to find radiation kits, there's not much more I can do for you if you think US contamination is dangerous.

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Monday, April 16, 2012 1:28 PM

OONJERAH


Quote Byte: 5) I linked you CalEPA for information if you want to find radiation kits,
there's not much more I can do for you if you think US contamination is dangerous.

Thank you, Byte, I appreciate it. I'll study that a bit later.

I found a wee US map online that shows environmental radiation levels here.
The levels are given as 1 (negligible) to 129 (dangerous). It also updates.
Today it showed 36 SF, 50 LA, 37 Mendicino & 56 Spokane.
Of course, I don't know whether to believe it.
With the government lying about everything, I can only believe people who
work in the field.

NOTIFY: N   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Monday, April 16, 2012 1:30 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

1) Britain is very strict with their meat and diary products, I would even say unnecessarily strict, since places in Sweden and Germany got hit a lot worse by Chernobyl and they've gone back to allowing consumption of local livestock and produce. I also know that there was a small measurable increase in down syndrome rate in Germany and Sweden attributable to Chernobyl, which were back down to normal levels by 1989.



If that's true, I'd say Britain was being just about the right level of strict, and Germany and Sweden paid a price for being too lenient.

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Monday, April 16, 2012 1:33 PM

BYTEMITE


The high rate of down syndrome was mostly like six to nine months after the incident. They had restrictions on their meats for longer. The data suggested that radiation levels were no longer a problem, therefore no more restrictions.

It was possibly mostly environmental factors rather than consuming contaminated food products, I think I remember that I read in some places they had fallout dust settle at about 40,000 Bq/m^2.

Britain is just being weird, and possibly just taking the piss at Welsh people.

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Monday, April 16, 2012 1:36 PM

BYTEMITE


Oonj: To be entirely fair I tried to search the Cal site for radiation test kits, I'm not sure if I'm just missing it or what. I know they offer them in Utah.

Google actually might be the best site for this.

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Monday, April 16, 2012 5:57 PM

RIONAEIRE

Beir bua agus beannacht


Thanks to Byte, Signe, et al, for continuing to research this topic so we can all be informed about what's going on. Signe tells us the scary stuff, Byte checks up on the data for local contamination levels here in the US, these are both helpful things.

I assume you're my pal until you let me know otherwise.

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya.

NOTIFY: N   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Tuesday, April 17, 2012 6:24 AM

BYTEMITE


The maps are probably giving geiger counts per minute, but I can't be sure without seeing them. Link? Source?

I'm looking around for more information. Apparently most Geiger counters are calibrated to Cesium-137, which is helpful to us because that's what they're detecting in the milk. At the same time you're going to pick up some radiation just from the environment naturally that may not have come from overseas, including potentially radiation from yourself.

I'm consistently seeing answers around the internet that somewhere around 0-60 CPM is a fairly normal range.

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Tuesday, April 17, 2012 7:14 AM

CAVETROLL


I'm not sure how they'd even go about containing this now. Boron sarcophagi probably won't work, unless they backfill the sub-basement of all the reactors.

I think the Japanese government is ignoring it and hoping it goes away.

I guess California gets to catch up to the rest of the nation in terms of radioactive fallout, unfortunately.

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Tuesday, April 17, 2012 7:39 AM

BYTEMITE


Well, they have some sort of forty year plan, though I'm not sure how much of it is viable and how much of it is just lip service.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fukushima_disaster_cleanup

Skimming this, the basic jist seems to be that "Japan faces the prospect of removing and disposing 29 million cubic meters of soil" and "there would be at least six months of emergency stabilisation, about two years of temporary remediation and up to 30 years of full-scale clean-up. Furthermore, the high levels of ground contamination at the site are raising concerns about the viability of individuals to work at the site in coming decades."

As for the nuclear bomb fallout, I live in Utah, so for starters

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dugway_sheep_incident
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Downwinders

Quote:

In 1957, atmospheric nuclear explosions in Nevada, which were part of Operation Plumbbob were later determined to have released enough radiation to have caused from 11,000 to 212,000 excess cases of thyroid cancer amongst U.S. citizens who were exposed to fallout from the explosions, leading to between 1,100 and 21,000 deaths.


Oddly, the rates of cancer in Utah are pretty low, except among the direct downwinders, who are 500 times more likely to develop cancer (kind of in the central south west of the state)

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Tuesday, April 17, 2012 8:56 AM

CAVETROLL


This is an eye opening account of the number and locations of above and below ground nuclear testing in the US.

http://www.johnstonsarchive.net/nuclear/tests/USA-ntestsS.html

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Tuesday, April 17, 2012 9:06 AM

BYTEMITE


Very useful information, thanks. Dugway isn't on there, but then again, that might be because Dugway is still an active testing Site.

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Tuesday, April 17, 2012 10:13 AM

CAVETROLL


That's site is only nuclear testing. Dugway was VX nerve gas.

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Tuesday, April 17, 2012 11:59 AM

OONJERAH


Bytemite: "The maps are probably giving geiger counts per minute,
but I can't be sure without seeing them. Link? Source?"

=> http://radiationnetwork.com/
Welcome to RadiationNetwork.com, home of the National Radiation Map,
depicting environmental radiation levels across the USA, updated in
real time every minute. This is the first web site where the average
citizen (or anyone in the world) can see what radiation levels are
anywhere in the USA at any time.



. . . . .The worst and most frequent consequence of paranoia is that it's self-fulfilling.


NOTIFY: N   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Tuesday, April 17, 2012 12:38 PM

BYTEMITE


In regards to Dugway, believe dirty bombs qualify as nuclear.

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Tuesday, April 17, 2012 12:47 PM

BYTEMITE


Yep, that's what I figured, first thing google pulled up when I put in "radiation 130 CPM"

Well, first I'd say that geigers have to be properly calibrated, and I can't say for sure without looking at the devices they're getting the data feed from. But I don't see any problem with their methods, so I'm going to tentatively call their readings accurate. Just remember, 0-60 is pretty normal, and that CPM is combined input from a lot of potential radiation sources and it's difficult to pull out any one source from that and say how bad that source is.

I'd also keep in mind that there in California, you might be getting a lot of wind from California nuclear power plants, and BOTH Japan and China... China has some filthy air, lot of coal burning, and the soot from coal burning has more radioactivity than you might expect. The conditions that form coal in the earth are rather unusual, you know, and the deeper you go to mine it, the more radioactivity you can expect to encounter. Not as much as nuclear waste, even though the pro-nuke sorts would say otherwise, but there's still some.

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Friday, April 20, 2012 5:58 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Well, at least ONE Senator is paying attention. Ron Wyden (D. Oregon) toured Fukushima and wrote a letter to the Japanese ambassador last week, urging Japan to accept international assistance. The letter was released to the press afterwards, and it said (in part)

Quote:

The scope of damage to the plants and to the surrounding area was far beyond what I expected and the scope of the challenges to the utility owner, the government of Japan, and to the people of the region are daunting. ... The precarious status of the Fukushima Daiichi nuclear units and the risk presented by the enormous inventory of radioactive materials and spent fuel in the event of further earthquake threats should be of concern to all and a focus of greater international support and assistance.


http://www.wyden.senate.gov/news/press-releases/after-tour-of-fukushim
a-nuclear-power-station-wyden-says-situation-worse-than-reported

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Friday, April 20, 2012 5:59 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


BYTE: The average background radiation here in So CA is about 30-35 CPM.

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Friday, April 20, 2012 6:07 AM

CAVETROLL


Oregon stands to get some of the fallout. This is one time I don't mind local interest from a politician.

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Sunday, April 22, 2012 7:01 PM

RIONAEIRE

Beir bua agus beannacht


We like Ron, my household votes for him every time because he does a good job for us, he was one of those who were opposed to that really bad bill a while ago that would widen the government's abilities to arrest without probable cause etc. you know the one that only a handfull of people opposed even though it was bad.

I assume you're my pal until you let me know otherwise.

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya.

NOTIFY: N   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Monday, April 23, 2012 10:42 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


I apologize for the length of the article, but there is little "fat" that can be trimmed. It continues with more information, please go to the link.



The Highest Risk: Problems of Radiation at Reactor Unit 4, Fukushima Daiichi
Shaun Burnie, Matsumura Akio and Murata Mitsuhei

The efforts of two Japanese citizens to raise awareness of the risk of a further major accident at Fukushima are to be commended. More than 13 months after the accident began – the threats from the Fukushima Daiichi site are multi-dimensional and on-going, but the under reporting of these risks as a result of nuclear crisis fatigue tied with the 24 hour news cycle can lead to a complacency on the current and future reality at the site.

The specific issue highlighted by Matsumura and Murata is the risk and consequences of the failure of the spent fuel pool at the destroyed reactor unit 4 at Fukushima Daiichi. As they report the [No 4] spent fuel inventory at this pool is the largest of all 4 reactors that were destroyed by the earthquake and tsunami in March 2011.

While one can take issue with some of the language used – fate of the whole world being one – it is important to understand the scale of the threat, and why there are no easy and quick solutions. The risks from spent fuel have been known almost since the beginning of nuclear power – the radiation levels are so high that without shielding, direct exposure to spent fuel rods is fatal. Despite this knowledge the world proceeded to deploy nuclear power reactors ... that has created a total global inventory of over one quarter of million tons. Most of this is stored in water filled pools. In addition to creating a massive plutonium stock – 2500 tons (contained in spent fuel) and compared with the micro-grams that were valued above gold in 1944 by the engineers running the Manhattan project – the spent fuel crisis has spread worldwide to every nation operating nuclear reactors.

The Fukushima Daiichi accident focused attention on the issue as never before. Japan, a nation committed to reprocessing spent fuel at the Rokkasho-mura plant, had failed to solve the problem – like other nations the reprocessing route in Japan has failed economically and technically. ...

... Now we face a crisis for which there is no simple, risk free solution. Removing the spent fuel rods at Fukushima Daiichi is a priority, but it will not be achieved (or even attempted) before 2013 or later. Securing the structure of the pool at Unit 4 was identified early on in the crisis, with support columns installed. But the survivability of these columns, if struck by a manor seismic event, must be doubted. A decision to build a new structure around the plant with heavy lift cranes is only the start of a long process that risks failure at numerous corners. All through this period and before the spent fuel is unloaded and put in secure casks the possibility will persist of loss of cooling water leading to an exothermic reaction that would lead to the release of a vast inventory of radioactive cesium and other radionuclides.

The 50 mile evacuation zone recommended for U.S. citizens in the months after the Fukushima accident began would not be sufficient to protect Japan, including Metropolitan Tokyo, from potential devastation as a society. That was the information conveyed to Prime Minister Kan more than one year ago – and it remains the nightmare today.

Responding to the Problems of Radiation at Fuel Pool at Unit 4
In the event of further severe damage to the spent fuel pool in Unit 4 what are TEPCO's options? Water spraying and the use of materials such as boron and sand would appear the most relevant. The risk is that, with water spraying on Fukushima Daiichi unit 4 following a loss of the cooling water and even collapse of the building, this could make the situation worse – if the spent fuel rods have gone beyond 900 degrees then the water will provide further oxidation helping to release more radionuclides into the atmosphere. The zircalloy fuel cladding around the thousands of fuel rods at Fukushima Daiichi ignites at 900 degrees and above – fuel melting as seen in the cores of units 1, 2 and 3 occurs at 2800 degrees.

Other important factors include the possibility that the pool collapses and the spent fuel rods are scattered on the ground with the result that the complexity of dealing with the problem is magnified. Emergency worker access to these rods may be impossible as they will be emitting lethal levels of gamma radiation. Remote access through the use of robots may not be feasible given the radiation levels. The rods will continue to release radiation until they are secured under water – but without access to the rods and the use of a crane this would not be possible – so a prolonged nuclear release over days and weeks would be potentially catastrophic for Japan.

...

http://japanfocus.org/-Murata-Mitsuhei/3742

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Monday, April 23, 2012 10:55 AM

BYTEMITE


Quote:

the spent fuel crisis has spread worldwide to every nation operating nuclear reactors.


And they want to send it HERE. (grumble)

Sounds like the best bet they have to get the fuel rods removed and isolated probably will be robots, but they're probably going to go through a lot of them in the process.

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Thursday, April 26, 2012 2:20 PM

OONJERAH


Touch it; Don't touch it -?-

Tsunami Debris Cleanup Here Depends Mostly On You =>
http://klcc.org/Feature.asp?FeatureID=3346

OCEAN SHORES, Wash. - The first items of debris swept into the Pacific Ocean
by last year's big tsunami in Japan are turning up on the Northwest coast.
More is out there drifting our way. The state of Washington hosted a meeting
Wednesday to prepare local governments and beachgoers for what to do about
this. Oregon held similar meetings last week. Here's the takeaway: tsunami
debris pickup depends largely on you.
...
I should say there was a volunteer beach cleanup this past weekend. And it is
those kinds of volunteer efforts I'm learning that will be the backbone of
dealing with the coming waves of tsunami debris.
...
[Curt Hart] spoke at a tsunami debris planning meeting in Ocean Shores that
involved dozens of different government bodies, tribes and community groups.
They heard about innocuous trash, but what worries participants more are
things like oil drums, containers with hazardous waste, even the possibility
of a fuel-filled boat.

If you see something like that, don't touch or try to move it. There's a
hotline now to report it. (National Response Center, 1-800-424-8802)




. . . . .The worst and most frequent consequence of paranoia is that it's self-fulfilling.


NOTIFY: N   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Sunday, April 29, 2012 10:53 AM

OONJERAH



Fault under nuclear plant feared active / Doubt cast on reactivation of Tsuruga plant
http://www.yomiuri.co.jp/dy/national/T120425006492.htm

A panel of the Nuclear and Industrial Safety Agency (NISA) has suggested
that faults beneath the Tsuruga nuclear power plant in Tsuruga, Fukui
Prefecture, may be active--potentially putting the plant in violation of
the government's criterion that prohibits building nuclear reactors above
active faults.

NISA, which is examining earthquake-resistance capabilities of nuclear
power plants, released Tuesday the results of the hearing panel's inspec-
tion of the plant of the Japan Atomic Power Co. (JAPC)

The burden is now on JAPC to prove the faults are not active. The hurdle for
reactivating the reactors at the Tsuruga plant has thus become extremely high.

What the NISA panel sees as problematic are faults in zones of crushed rock
left fragile by past earthquakes.

There are about 160 such crushed-rock zones on the plant's premises, including
spots just below its Nos. 1 and 2 reactors.

Though JAPC knew of the crushed-rock zones when it applied for permission
to construct the plant in 1965, the company's geological research apparently
led it to believe the zones showed no significant signs of seismic activity.

NOTIFY: N   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Sunday, April 29, 2012 10:54 AM

OONJERAH



Japan fears nuclear plant sits atop active geological fault
http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/04/25/us-japan-nuclear-idUSBRE83O0
6620120425


A nuclear plant in northwestern Japan may be sitting right on top of an
active geological fault, the country's nuclear watchdog has said, raising
the risk that the facility may never resume power generation for fear of
an earthquake.

For the first time in more than 40 years, Japan faces the prospect of
having no nuclear power within weeks, after last year's crisis at the
Fukushima Daiichi nuclear plant crushed public trust in nuclear power
and prevented the restart of reactors shut for regular maintenance
checks.

The fault fracture zone under the No.1 and No.2 units of the 1,517-mega-
watt Tsuruga plant could be an active fault that could move jointly with a
confirmed nearby active fault, the Nuclear and Industrial Safety Agency
(NISA) found in a site survey on Tuesday, a spokesman for the plant's
operator said.

The operator, unlisted Japan Atomic Power Co, denies the existence of an
active fault right under the plant, citing its geological assessment, but
the NISA has ordered an additional investigation following its findings,
the spokesman said.

NOTIFY: N   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Sunday, April 29, 2012 10:58 AM

OONJERAH



If reactors are deemed safe, restart them, OECD head urges =>
http://www.japantimes.co.jp/text/nn20120425b5.html

The head of the Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development
urged Japan on Tuesday to restart nuclear reactors that have been deemed
safe to ensure a stable power supply.

OECD Secretary General Angel Gurria told reporters in Tokyo that the
organization supports Japan's continuing "to have an important nuclear
capacity to generate electricity," despite growing public opposition
to atomic power in light of the nuclear disaster at Tokyo Electric Power
Co.'s Fukushima No.1 power plant.

*mutters*
It's not really possible that the Japanese are dumber than us, is it?



. . . . .The worst and most frequent consequence of paranoia is that it's self-fulfilling.


NOTIFY: N   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Monday, April 30, 2012 5:56 PM

OONJERAH



"Japanese investors relocating to Malaysia" =>
http://www.theborneopost.com/2012/04/28/japanese-investors-relocating-
to-malaysia
/

I kinda wondered if there's any exodus from Japan.


NOTIFY: N   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Wednesday, May 2, 2012 4:27 PM

RIONAEIRE

Beir bua agus beannacht


Well I just got back from my San Fransisco trip, had a wonderful time, didn't see any Japanese tsunami debris, put my feet in the bay, water felt good, and swam in Santa Cruz, lots of rocks and seaweed, but no debris sighted. It will keep coming though.

I assume you're my pal until you let me know otherwise.

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya.

NOTIFY: N   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Sunday, May 6, 2012 5:46 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Addition information on the spent fuel pool of Reactor No 4... people are starting to wake up and think... seriously... about what it's failure would mean. Meanwhile the NRC is giving nuclear industries everywhere a blow job, including their own.

Quote:

More than a year after the triple meltdown at the Fukushima Daiichi power plant, the Japanese government, Tokyo Electric Power Company (Tepco) and the U.S. Nuclear Regulatory Commission (NRC) present similar assurances of the site's current state: challenges remain but everything is under control. The worst is over.

www.alternet.org/health/155283/the_worst_yet_to_come_why_nuclear_exper
ts_are_calling_fukushima_a_ticking_time-bomb?page=entire


Meanwhile Arnie Gunderson, former VP of a nuclear fueling company having done business with over 70 nuclear power plants, and a nuclear engineer, had this to say about what it means to us...
Quote:

Move south of equator if Unit 4 fuel pool goes dry, that’s probably the lesson there — Like cesium from all 800 nuclear bombs ever dropped on Earth, except all at once

http://enenews.com/gundersen-move-south-equator-unit-4-fuel-pool-dry-l
esson-like-cesium-all-800-nuclear-bombs-dropped-earth-except-all-video


For now
Quote:

We’re getting studies out of the Cascades, all the way down into Southern California, where we’re seeing cesium in pine needles, cesium in the ground up in Oregon and up in Vancouver. Not a lot. I guess my biggest concern is bioaccumulation, it works it’s way up the food chain.


And finally, a coalition of 70 groups have asked the UN for help with spent fuel pool No 4
Quote:

We Japanese civil organizations express our deepest concern that our government does not inform its citizens about the extent of risk of the Fukushima Daiichi Unit 4 spent nuclear fuel pool. Given the fact that collapse of this pool could potentially lead to catastrophic consequences with worldwide implications, what the Japanese government should be doing as a responsible member of the international community is to avoid any further disaster by mobilizing all the wisdom and the means available in order to stabilize this spent nuclear fuel. It is clearly evident that Fukushima Daiichi Unit 4 spent nuclear fuel pool is no longer a Japanese issue but an international issue with potentially serious consequences. Therefore, it is imperative for the Japanese government and the international community to work together on this crisis before it becomes too late
http://fukushima.greenaction-japan.org/2012/05/01/an-urgent-request-on
-un-intervention-to-stabilize-the-fukushima-unit-4-spent-nuclear-fuel
/

Just keeping you all up-to-date


NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Friday, May 25, 2012 10:12 AM

OONJERAH


Thanks, Sig, I missed this.
Last night, I could not find the current radiation map, here it is =>
=> http://radiationnetwork.com/

Earthquake shakes northeastern Japan =>
http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/story/2012-05-23/japan-earthquake/5
5168110/1


TOKYO (AP) – A strong earthquake has struck off the coast of northeastern Japan,
but no tsunami is expected.

The U.S. Geological Survey says the magnitude-6.1 earthquake hit early Thursday
and was centered about 66 miles northeast of Hachinohe at a depth of 25 miles.

Japan's Kyodo News agency says the quake shook Aomori prefecture (state) and
other areas of northeastern Japan, but no abnormalities were reported at nearby
nuclear power plants. No tsunami warning was issued.

A massive magnitude-9.0 earthquake and tsunami ravaged Japan's northeastern
coastline in March last year, leaving some 19,000 people dead or missing and badly
damaging the Fukushima Dai-ichi nuclear plant.
=================================

Just so ya know: I'm really scared now about nuclear disaster, but probably not
scared enough. I also have no luck impressing friends & relatives with this concern.
There are a whole buncha "responsible adults" around me who are committed to
unconsciousness.

. . .
=========================
I am convinced that life is 10% what happens to me and 90% of how I react to it. ~Charles R Swindoll

If I have to react to others all the time, then they own my mind more than I do.
If I let others tell me how to feel, I lose my ability to choose happiness.
If I let others tell me who I am, I've vacated self-definition.
Finally, I realized how foolish I was to give others such

NOTIFY: N   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Sunday, June 10, 2012 6:54 PM

OONJERAH



Taiwan: Magnitude 6.5 quake strikes, no deaths reported =>
http://www.taipeitimes.com/News/front/archives/2012/06/11/2003535036

SAFE AND SOUND:The temblor caused no major damage to infrastructure or injuries and
while it slowed several trains, it did not disrupt industrial parks

A magnitude 6.5 earthquake hit the nation yesterday morning, delaying several trains
operating on the North-Link Line between Suao (??) in Ilan County and Hualien, but
causing no major damage to infrastructure or casualties.

According to the Central Weather Bureau, the temblor occurred at 5am, with the epicenter
located 70.2km southeast of Yilan County. The depth of the earthquake was 61.9km.

Four aftershocks were reported, with a magnitude 5.1 aftershock occurring at 5:54am.

NOTIFY: N   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

YOUR OPTIONS

NEW POSTS TODAY

USERPOST DATE

OTHER TOPICS

DISCUSSIONS
NY Times "reopens" rape case
Thu, April 17, 2014 17:23 - 3 posts
The ACTUAL War on Women : Brandeis University
Thu, April 17, 2014 17:11 - 63 posts
What's your Political Compass?
Thu, April 17, 2014 17:03 - 18 posts
Climate Meeting to Discuss Future of Fossil Fuels
Thu, April 17, 2014 16:47 - 36 posts
Former Arizona Sheriff Reveals Chilling Strategy to Put Women ‘Up at the Front’ During Bundy Ranch Standoff
Thu, April 17, 2014 16:40 - 25 posts
Rick Perry Under Investigation
Thu, April 17, 2014 15:01 - 11 posts
So, Geezer, rappy, in your ideal world, what should happen?
Thu, April 17, 2014 14:56 - 81 posts
Lib media ignores a big story ...again
Thu, April 17, 2014 08:22 - 30 posts
13 tax deductions that are really stupid
Thu, April 17, 2014 07:54 - 3 posts
Retirement plans
Wed, April 16, 2014 23:08 - 8 posts
Extinction by 2040? (part II)
Wed, April 16, 2014 15:08 - 13 posts
Definition of Deluded?
Wed, April 16, 2014 13:24 - 27 posts

FFF.NET SOCIAL

OUR SPONSORS