REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

On the subject of God

POSTED BY: NIKI2
UPDATED: Friday, April 6, 2012 17:39
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VIEWED: 1354
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Sunday, April 1, 2012 5:11 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Since we've been discussing god and religion, I thought some might be interested in this:
Quote:

Can't live with him, can't live without him. In a special series of articles we lay out a new vision that resets the terms of the debate

In our enlightened world, god is still everywhere. In the UK, arguments rage over "militant atheism" and the place of religion in public life. In the US, religion is again taking centre stage in the presidential election. Try as we might, we just don't seem to be able to let go.

Perhaps that is because we have been looking at god the wrong way. Atheists often see gods and religion as being imposed from above, a bit like a totalitarian regime. But religious belief is more subtle and interesting than that.

Like it or not, religious belief is ingrained into human nature. And a good thing too: without it we would still be living in the Stone Age.

Viewing religion this way opens up new territory in the battle between science and religion, not least that religion is much more likely to persist than science.

Of course, the truth or otherwise of religion is not a closed book to science: the existence of a deity can be treated as a scientific hypothesis.

Meanwhile, society is gradually learning to live without religion by replicating its success at binding people together. This is something secularists ought to take seriously. Only by understanding what religion is and is not can we ever hope to move on.

We Are All Born Believers

BY THE time he was 5 years old, Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart could play the clavier and had begun to compose his own music. Mozart was a "born musician"; he had strong natural talents and required only minimal exposure to music to become fluent.

Few of us are quite so lucky. Music usually has to be drummed into us by teaching, repetition and practice. And yet in other domains, such as language or walking, virtually everyone is a natural; we are all "born speakers" and "born walkers".

So what about religion? Is it more like music or language?

Drawing upon research in developmental psychology, cognitive anthropology and particularly the cognitive science of religion, I argue that religion comes nearly as naturally to us as language. The vast majority of humans are "born believers", naturally inclined to find religious claims and explanations ...

Religion is the Key to Civilization

ON A hilltop in what is now south-eastern Turkey rests the world's oldest temple of worship. With its massive, T-shaped stone pillars carved with images of animals, Göbekli Tepe is challenging long-held assumptions about the origins of civilisation. While archaeologists are unearthing clues and debating their meaning, the significance of the site escapes no one.

No evidence of agriculture has been found at the site, which may be explained by the fact that it dates back about 11,500 years, making it old enough to have been built by hunter-gatherers. Yet the monumental architecture of Göbekli Tepe would have required the participation of many hundreds, possibly thousands, of people (Documenta Praehistorica, vol 37, p 239). It may therefore hold clues to two of the deepest puzzles of human civilisation: how did human societies scale up from small, mobile groups

Science won't loosen religion's grip

THE human mind has no specific department for religion. Instead, religions appear to be a by-product of various cognitive systems that evolved for unrelated reasons. Research on the cognitive foundations of religious thought has spawned insights about religion itself, as well as providing a fresh perspective on the long-standing project of comparing religion and science.

From an early age humans confront numerous fundamental problems that must be solved in order for them to function in the world. These include distinguishing between inanimate objects and "agents" that can act on their surroundings, recognising faces, avoiding contaminants, parsing speech and reading other people's intentions. By the time children are 6 or 7 years old, their cognitive systems for solving these problems are mostly up and running (see "The God issue: We are all born believers"). http://www.newscientist.com/special/god

Wish I could get the whole articles, but you have to subscribe to do that. I thought these might be interesting concepts, anyway.


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Sunday, April 1, 2012 7:21 AM

HKCAVALIER


Hey Niki,

Maybe the article gets more grounded or interesting later on, but the bit you've posted just reads like gobbledigook to me. "Without religion we would still be living in the Stone Age!" WTF? Does he explain this? Toward the end of the posted section of this essay he mentions an 11,000 year old "temple" and claims it would take many hundreds of people to build it. I guess he's implying that the "need to build temples" was the driving force behind mass civilization. I hope he's more convincing later on.

And of course, Stone Age people (and people who live that lifestyle to this day) had (and continue to have) religious beliefs sans temple. So it's not "religion" per se, but some special kind of "lets build crap" religion that spawned civilization. This kinda stinks of bias. I mean, is the goofy guy saying that humans are hardwired to build imposing temples? "Just look at the way children play with Legos! QE-freakin'-D!"

Seems to me that the creation of huge temples is more a result of the institution of slave labor by a ruling class intent on pushing its "religious" agenda and imposing their views on as large a population as possible. Not all religions build temples--just the nasty, hegemonic ones. And, sure, the best way to convince slaves to stay on task and not rise up is to say the whole nasty business was "ordained" by the deity. Whoohoo, humans are natural slave owners! I just proved it!

I'm sorry, Niki. I'm not trying to antagonize you at all. I do suspect the article got more interesting as it went along. It's just his argument as it appears here seems fraught with assumptions and a desire to justify his conclusions rather than just look at the data and see what's there. An attitude, btw, which he is implying is hardwired into us humans. Oh, how very convenient!

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

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Sunday, April 1, 2012 8:43 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


If I had to guess what the article is saying, it's that people aren't logical and they make up shit all of the time.

I get that.

Part of the reason why the two latest economic-social system theories don't work is because humans are NOT selfish, individual, rational actors. The theory of capitalism fails on all counts, and Marxist theory fails because it presupposes that workers will eventually become rational.

The human brain doesn't work in logic, it works using comparisons and short-cuts. Was there a situation "like this" in the past? Is this "close enough"? What worked before? So much of our behavior is context-driven, habitual etc.

In fact, I read an interesting phrase that made this very clear: The human brain is wired NOT to think!

Humans do have several hardwired "bents" (none of which have to do with rationality, science, or logic), though, and several that seem to be nearly inbuilt...

empathy
fairness
vengeance
language
learning from others (to the point where taught knowledge is taken more seriously than direct evidence)
contagion avoidance
recognition/anthropomorphization of greater forces
prediction
us versus them

For example, all societies seem to have a "cootie" factor. Articles associated with disease or evil become disgusting/ creepy and are avoided... good for preventing contagion, provided the right cooties are identified! (In many parts of Bangladesh, religion prefers that you drink green, "living" water found in surface ponds. Normally, one would think that this would spread disease. But well-water is often naturally laced with arsenic, so that while people actually PREFER to drink clear, fresh-tasting water, it comes at a high price!)

I think that psychologists are beginning to identify the irrational aspects of people. Liberals are in shock when they find out how irrational some people really are. I know I was!

So I'm junking my preference for democracy based on rational actors... not gonna happen unless society as a whole is willing to invest a lot more in education... and since TPTB definitely don't want an educated populace, "education" and "rationality" will be resisted exactly when it is needed most: when society has built an extremely tall hierarchy and gone off the rails.

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Sunday, April 1, 2012 11:30 AM

WISHIMAY


I was five when I figured out that the stuff they were sellin' me didn't quite add up...

I think some people are born to question and follow their own path, and some people are happiest when the rules are set in stone and the path is laid out for them.

Hubbs has a saying "Do what thy will, but be cool about it." It's a nice concept...
(yes, I know it's not grammatically correct, ICCL=I could care less!)

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Sunday, April 1, 2012 11:51 AM

OONJERAH


Martin says of himself: "I have a particular interest in issues
related to public health including health politics, so-called
complementary medicines, the role of religion in public life,
and rationalism/skepticism."

Some quotes from his blog:
"If we go back to the beginnings of things, we shall always find
that ignorance and fear created the gods; that imagination, rapture
and deception embellished them; that weakness worships them; that
custom spares them; and that tyranny favors them in order to profit
from the blindness of men."-- Baron d'Holbach


"The problem with religion, because it's been sheltered from criticism,
is that it allows people to believe en masse what only idiots or
lunatics could believe in isolation." -- Sam Harris


What can be asserted without proof can be dismissed without proof. -- Christopher Hitchens

Martin: Another reason why I don’t buy the “New Scientist” anymore [is The God Issue]
http://furiouspurpose.me/another-reason-why-i-dont-buy-the-new-scienti
st-anymore
/

Oonjerah:
If I had to make a choice between blind Atheism and blind Religion ...
If I had to make such a choice by law, I'd pick the blind Atheism. But it
would not sit right or be my true opinion. Blind religion can be so nuts
and destructive, it'll drive one up the wall.

Hard wired people.

Here's what I see around me: Most people are born (hard wired) to be normal,
natural, common, ordinary. As children, they may have some curiosity, but
not enough to be seekers of wisdom and truth. As they grow up, curiosity
is replaced by teachings. Habitual thinking with a degree of certainty is a
comfort.
If they are curious about anything, it's what are the neighbors up to?

There are always a fair portion of people who are born different. Like
Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart, they couldn't be normal if they wanted to be.
They are born (hard wired) to serve a muse. They have a special talent
and a vision. "I have a dream ..."

Some folks are born to wonder about All that Is and where it came from.
When they find the answers to this, very few of us can understand them.
We cannot see thru their eyes.
Then if we build a temple to their vision, we destroy it.

Ask any genius.




. . . . .The worst and most frequent consequence of paranoia is that it's self-fulfilling.


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Sunday, April 1, 2012 12:13 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


I also think like all animals human are built to maximize reward and minimize cost. The problem is that we tell ourselves VERY skewed Nietze-ist ideas as to what's rewarding.

What is see is really rewarding: Cooperation is rewarding. Family is rewarding. Having peaceable relations with neighbors is rewarding. Security is rewarding. Certainty is rewarding. That's why "As they grow up, curiosity is replaced by teachings. Habitual thinking with a degree of certainty is a comfort." It minimizes effort and maximizes reward.

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Sunday, April 1, 2012 12:42 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


"Part of the reason why the two latest economic-social system theories don't work is because humans are NOT selfish, individual, rational actors. The theory of capitalism fails on all counts, and Marxist theory fails because it presupposes that workers will eventually become rational."

Well duh! How come I couldn't think that up?

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Sunday, April 1, 2012 9:02 PM

RIONAEIRE

Beir bua agus beannacht


I think that people are hardwired to seek, a person's experiences, how they are raised, what happens to them during life, what they are exposed to, affect how this seeking will play out, but everyone wants to find answers of varrying sorts, we basically all have that drive in us.

I assume you're my pal until you let me know otherwise. "A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya

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Monday, April 2, 2012 5:55 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


HK, none of it is my words, I put it up to see what kind of discussion it might spark, if any. You can't offend me, trust me! I THINK the point is that religion brought people together, gave them rules to live by so that they could get along, but I'm not about to pay for a membership to find out! I use New Scientist to look for interesting subjects people may find worth discussing, little more.

Sig,
Quote:

The human brain is wired NOT to think!
Seems that way a lot of the time, doesn't it? It's what we tend to see around us most of the time.
Quote:

Liberals are in shock when they find out how irrational some people really are. I know I was!
Me, too. Quite an education!
Quote:

think some people are born to question and follow their own path, and some people are happiest when the rules are set in stone and the path is laid out for them.
I'll go along with that, Wish, but I think upbringing can either enhance the desire to question or kick it out of you, depending on how strong your instinct is to either question or follow and how heavy the indoctrination is! My motto is a slightly different version: "Harm none; do as thee will".




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Friday, April 6, 2012 5:39 PM

WISHIMAY


Quote:

Originally posted by Niki2:
"Harm none; do as thee will".



Tell me, tell me.... How do you rectify that rule in regards to relating to people who get off on harm?? How do you NOT wanna harm them constantly?

I sometimes wish I had never started reading the bad news... The things they do to the babies, it haunts me. I can't look at humanity the same way. Ever.

Anybody got a spare set of Flaming Swords of Righteousness I could borrow?? Anybody?? Golden Rulebook to bludgeon them with?? Oh, I could so Do Unto Others in a heartbeat...

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