REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

Santorum's unbelievable statements, omission, hypocrisy, flip-flops and lies about college

POSTED BY: NIKI2
UPDATED: Monday, March 12, 2012 09:10
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Tuesday, February 28, 2012 7:44 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Quote:

Speaking at the Tea Party group Americans For Prosperity’s Michigan branch in Troy, Michigan, GOP presidential candidate Rick Santorum attacked President Barack Obama for wanting students to go to college (video below).

Santorum said: "President Obama wants everybody in America to go to college, what a snob. There are good, decent men and women who work hard every day and put their skills to the test that aren’t taught by some liberal college professor. And trying to indoctrinate them.”

However, In 2006, while he was a senator, Santorum pushed to make college more affordable for all Pennsylvanians on his web site. http://www.opposingviews.com/i/politics/2012-election/video-rick-santo
rum-calls-pres-obama-snob-advocating-college-education
, Santorum told Beck that “62 percent of kids who go into college with a faith commitment leave without it,” but failed to say where he found that figure.
Quote:

“You know the statistic that at least I was familiar with from a few years ago, I don't know if it still holds true but I suspect it may even be worse, that 62 percent of kids who enter college with some sort of faith commitment leave without it.”
"statistic that I was familiar with"...uh, huh...

How about some FACTS regarding all that?

The omission: PBS tracked down a study Santorum might have been referring to
Quote:

but it actually suggests that people who have not enrolled in college are even less religious. “64 percent of those currently enrolled in a traditional four-year institution have curbed their attendance habits,” said the study, published in the journal Social Forces. “Yet, 76 percent of those who never enrolled in college report a decline in religious service attendance.”

Another study, published last year in the Review of Religious Research, found that for each year of education after 7th grade, seemingly contradictory trends emerge: people become more likely to attend religious services and to believe in a “higher power” but at the same time they are less likely to say the Bible is the “actual word of God” and become more open to believing there is truth in more than one religion.

The researcher, sociologist Philip Schwadel, concluded after analyzing data from a large national survey:
Quote:

“The above results suggest that religion plays an important role in the lives of highly educated Americans. While education has a positive effect on switching religious af?liations, particularly to mainline denominations and ‘other’ religious traditions, it is unrelated to religious disaf?liation. Education also has a positive effect on religious participation, emphasizing the importance of religion, and supporting the rights of religious authorities to in?uence people’s votes.”

The flat-out lie? Obama never said everyone has to, or even should, go to college.
Quote:

“And so tonight, I ask every American to commit to at least one year or more of higher education or career training. This can be community college or a four-year school; vocational training or an apprenticeship. But whatever the training may be, every American will need to get more than a high school diploma. And dropping out of high school is no longer an option. It’s not just quitting on yourself, it’s quitting on your country — and this country needs and values the talents of every American.” http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/fact-checker/post/santorums-misfir
e-on-obama-colleges-and-religion/2012/02/27/gIQAl5KWeR_blog.html
COURSE it's red meat to lie about what Obama said, and call him a "snob" for saying what he didn't, we all know that.

It's also quite a flip-flop for Santorum, who made a campaign pledge in 2006:
Quote:

“ensuring the [sic] every Pennsylvanian has access to higher education,” including providing “loans, grants, and tax incentives to make higher education more accessible and affordable.” http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/fact-checker/post/santorums-misfir
e-on-obama-colleges-and-religion/2012/02/27/gIQAl5KWeR_blog.html

In other words, more reach for something his base can applaud, by lying and making it something other than it really is. I notice Santorum felt college was a good thing for HIM, by the way, given he has more degrees than Obama himself...

Obama has repeated his earlier statement, apparently in response to Santorum's lie.
Quote:

“When I speak about higher education we’re not just talking about a four-year degree,” Obama said. “We’re talking about somebody going to a community college and getting trained for that manufacturing job that now is requiring somebody walking through the door, handling a million-dollar piece of equipment. And they can’t go in there unless they’ve got some basic training beyond what they received in high school.”

The president added: “We all want Americans to get those jobs of the future. We need to make sure they get the education they need.” http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/44/post/obama-hits-back-against-sa
ntorum-snob-criticism-by-defending-college-education-stance/2012/02/27/gIQAmnt5dR_blog.html?tid=pm_politics_pop
] It's a shame he felt the need to, but I understand why. Doesn't matter, actually, as Santorum's audience will continue to believe the lie he told them:
Quote:

“Not all folks are gifted in the same way,” Santorum told a crowd of more than 1,000 activists at the Americans for Prosperity forum in Troy, Mich. “Some people have incredible gifts with their hands. Some people have incredible gifts and ... want to work out there making things. President Obama once said he wants everybody in America to go to college. What a snob.”

Santorum is targeting working-class voters in his bid for the White House. Though he holds more college degrees than Obama {there's the hypocrisy}, Santorum added: “There are good decent men and women who go out and work hard every day and put their skills to test that aren’t taught by some liberal college professor trying to indoctrinate them. Oh, I understand why he wants you to go to college. He wants to remake you in his image. I want to create jobs so people can remake their children into their image, not his.” http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/44/post/obama-hits-back-against-sa
ntorum-snob-criticism-by-defending-college-education-stance/2012/02/27/gIQAmnt5dR_blog.html?tid=pm_politics_pop
all get it; buzz words like "snob", "liberal college professor", "not (his) image" work great on the campaign trail, and the lie is quite convenient, but what an asinine thing to say, and again, there are no limits to the lies these guys feel quite free to tell!

Even Republicans disagree with Santorum's propaganda:
Quote:

Several of the Republican governors who were present for Obama’s remarks distanced themselves from Santorum and said they agreed with the president on encouraging more young people to attend college.

“I wish he’d said it differently,” Virginia Gov. Robert F. McDonnell (R), who has endorsed Mitt Romney in the GOP presidential nomination fight, said of Santorum. “I’m pushing in Virginia this year 100,000 new degrees over the next 15 years. I want more college graduates..?.?. There’s no question, when you look at what’s going on in other countries, China, India, the premium they put on higher education, we’ve got to do better if we still want to be the global leader we are.”

Arizona Gov. Jan Brewer (R), who also is backing Romney, said Obama "has a good strong message on education. In Arizona, we’re trying to implement the things that he talked about. It’s one area in which we agree on. We all know how important education is to our state and our country.”
....
Obama said that more than 40 states have cut higher education funding over the past year, “part of a long-term trend of reduced state support for higher education.”

“Too many states are making cuts to education that I think are too big,” Obama said. “Today, I’m calling on all of you to invest more in education. Invest more in our children and our future.” http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/44/post/obama-hits-back-against-sa
ntorum-snob-criticism-by-defending-college-education-stance/2012/02/27/gIQAmnt5dR_blog.html?tid=pm_politics_pop

Those cuts in education are very real and are damaging our country, but of course Santorum doesn't give a shit about that!

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Tuesday, February 28, 2012 7:48 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


How is this so very different than what you accuse me of doing against Obama ?




" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Tuesday, February 28, 2012 7:53 AM

STORYMARK


Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:
How is this so very different than what you accuse me of doing against Obama ?




" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "



Becuase it includes facts and citations, and quotes used entirely IN context - and not a bunch of paranoid speculation and invention.

"Goram it kid, let's frak this thing and go home! Engage!"

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Tuesday, February 28, 2012 8:00 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


"We've got to make sure that every young person in America is prepared for college and then can afford to go to college."- B.Obama. Democratic Congressional Campaign Committee dinner in Minneapolis, Minn., on Oct. 23, 2010


Citations like that ?

The bigger issue is, does every young adult NEED to go to college ? Seems clear that if you're talking about preparing for college and making it affordable, then you're talking about every, or nearly every child , going to college.

PolitiFact cited 18 times that Obama made references to this topic, and IN THEIR OPINION, Santorum was wrong. Wrong because Obama didn't say the exact words in the exact order Santorum claimed they were said, yet the underlying message was clear. PolitiFact says the claim by Santorum is false, I say it has merit.


Again, how is this any different than what I do ?



" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Tuesday, February 28, 2012 8:03 AM

STORYMARK


Prepared and can are not the same as "must".

Its subtle distinctions like that... knowing what words actually mean.... that escape you, Rappy boy.


Sure, we're falling behind the rest of the world in education.... but lets attack the Prez for wanting people to be educated. What a snob.

You'd fit in very well with a bufoon like Santorum, Rappy. No wonder you defend his innanity so.


"Goram it kid, let's frak this thing and go home! Engage!"

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Tuesday, February 28, 2012 8:08 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by Storymark:
Prepared and can are not the same as "must".

Its subtle distinctions like that... knowing what words actually mean.... that escape you, Rappy boy.

Sure, we're falling behind the rest of the world in education.... but lets attack the Prez for wanting people to be educated. What a snob.

You'd fit in very well with a bufoon like Santorum, Rappy. No wonder you defend his innanity so.




I see neither you or Niki can answer my 1st question, and instead jump right in on the petty and shallow insults.


" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Tuesday, February 28, 2012 8:11 AM

STORYMARK


My initial post in the thread addressed your question.

Then my second post followed up on it.

Both before getting to the entirely apt insults - you friggin moron.

"Goram it kid, let's frak this thing and go home! Engage!"

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Tuesday, February 28, 2012 8:15 AM

BLUEHANDEDMENACE


Im really not sure which is worse....Santorum's comment about college, or the fact that the room erupted in cheers when he said it...

Ive always known that the republican party, at its leadership, is anti-education. They have demonstrated that time again, stupid voters are their bread and butter.

Why would poor people from Michigan be anti-education? What path is more likely than an education to help them and their families?

I really wanna know the secret...how do the republicans get people to vote against their own self interest again and again and again?


Actually as I think about it, the answer to that question might be....dont let people get educated! Ah, it all makes sense to me now.

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Tuesday, February 28, 2012 8:23 AM

KPO

"Love is natural and real. But not for you my love. Not tonight my love..."




It's not personal. It's just war.

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Tuesday, February 28, 2012 8:25 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by Storymark:
My initial post in the thread addressed your question.



No, it didn't.

Quote:


Then my second post followed up on it.

Both before getting to the entirely apt insults - you friggin moron.




Seems you still don't get it. I'll ask again.

How is this any different than me posting threads regarding Obama ?




" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Tuesday, February 28, 2012 8:29 AM

BLUEHANDEDMENACE


Rappy, it isnt that much different than what u do.

Thats what makes it unacceptable.

Your opinions and tactics are barely tolerable on a message board, for a MAJOR political candidate to do the same...well, Ed Rendell, former Gov of PA, put it best.

Im paraphrasing here "As a democrat, who wants an incumbant reelected, Im thrilled. As a member of America looking at the long term health of our politcal system, I am very concerned"

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Tuesday, February 28, 2012 8:30 AM

STORYMARK


Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:
Quote:

Originally posted by Storymark:
My initial post in the thread addressed your question.



No, it didn't.

Quote:


Then my second post followed up on it.

Both before getting to the entirely apt insults - you friggin moron.




Seems you still don't get it. I'll ask again.

How is this any different than me posting threads regarding Obama ?




" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "



Already answered. Try reading.

"Goram it kid, let's frak this thing and go home! Engage!"

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Tuesday, February 28, 2012 8:34 AM

KPO

"Love is natural and real. But not for you my love. Not tonight my love..."


What was wrong with Story's answer AU?

I don't know exactly what Niki chastises you for doing in relation to Obama, but I've never seen you fact-check someone you're criticising, for example.

It's not personal. It's just war.

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Tuesday, February 28, 2012 8:35 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by BlueHandedMenace:
Rappy, it isnt that much different than what u do.

Thats what makes it unacceptable.



So, to clarify... you're agreeing that what both I and Niki do is " unacceptable " ?

Or only when I do it ?


" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Tuesday, February 28, 2012 8:37 AM

STORYMARK


Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:
Quote:

Originally posted by BlueHandedMenace:
Rappy, it isnt that much different than what u do.

Thats what makes it unacceptable.



So, to clarify... you're agreeing that what both I and Niki do is " unacceptable " ?

Or only when I do it ?


" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "



LOL.

You missed it.

Blue didn't say what you and Nikki do are the same - but what you and Santorum did are the same.

Hilarious.



"Goram it kid, let's frak this thing and go home! Engage!"

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Tuesday, February 28, 2012 8:39 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by kpo:
What was wrong with Story's answer AU?

I don't know exactly what Niki chastises you for doing in relation to Obama, but I've never seen you fact-check someone you're criticising, for example.

It's not personal. It's just war.



Because it doesn't address the question.

When I post something about Obama... Niki replies

You must have really had to go some to dig that one up

Implying that it's of a trivial nature, and I'm making a mountain out of a mole hill. In short, she disparages anything I post, but when SHE does it, why....it's an OUTrage! How DARE Santorum make such UNBELIEVABLE statements! Oh, the hypocrisy! The LIES! ...

Hyperbole and ridiculous rhetoric , it seems, only gets noticed on here when some folks post, but not others.

Which is why I ask the question that has yet to be answered.




" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Tuesday, February 28, 2012 8:44 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!



Story - no, YOU missed it. What I and Niki do ARE the same.

Silly cop picture applies to you, not me.

Have a nice day, ma'am.


" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Tuesday, February 28, 2012 8:45 AM

BLUEHANDEDMENACE


Ah, I see.

Then the answer is nothing is different, other than that Niki posts quotes, links, and facts, none of which u do.

In my opinion, Niki's posts are to begin a discussion, maybe not all of them, but in general.

Your posting attitude is that you are teaching people about things they dont know, which is arrogant, and typically absurd. You reach as hard as u can to correlate some quote by someone on "The Left" and then make generalizations and conclusion about it.

Niki posts things on current events. Using this thread as an example, Santorum said something outrageous, that even he had to back away from immediately (check his fox interview the next day).

How is that not topical, during an election campaign?

Again, has anyone said u CANT post your absurd Obama rants? I seriously doubt it, as last I checked u have every right to do so, just as Niki has every right to ridicule them when u do.

Thats called America buddy, didnt expect to hear u railing against free speech, but eh...

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Tuesday, February 28, 2012 8:50 AM

BLUEHANDEDMENACE


Glad u noticed that Story, I was wondering if it just flew over the head or what :)

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Tuesday, February 28, 2012 8:52 AM

KPO

"Love is natural and real. But not for you my love. Not tonight my love..."


Quote:

Hyperbole and ridiculous rhetoric , it seems, only gets noticed on here when some folks post, but not others.

This is a curious statement; are you confessing that your anti-Obama (or whatever) posts are hyperbole and ridiculous rhetoric?

Or do those terms only apply to Niki's posts? In which case aren't you doing the very same thing you accuse us on the left of doing - calling one person's posts hyperbole, but not saying the same about another person's equivalent posts (your own)?

Just interested in how your mind works.

It's not personal. It's just war.

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Tuesday, February 28, 2012 8:56 AM

STORYMARK


Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:

Story - no, YOU missed it. What I and Niki do ARE the same.

Silly cop picture applies to you, not me.

Have a nice day, ma'am.




Ah, the "I know you are, but what am I?" defense.

You aint fooling anyone, son. There's a reason even the other conservatives have given up on your dumb ass.

"Goram it kid, let's frak this thing and go home! Engage!"

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Tuesday, February 28, 2012 8:57 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Actually, Blue, you're wrong.

I post articles, video and cite them, with links, as well. I don't post endless paragraphs , as to the extent of Niki, but so what ? That isn't the point.

She brings up matters of interest to her, as I do the same for me.

She presents the side of the story she wants to promote, as do I.

Storybook - You missed MY point, and who's the dumb ass ?

Too gorram funny.




" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Tuesday, February 28, 2012 8:57 AM

STORYMARK


Quote:

Originally posted by BlueHandedMenace:
Glad u noticed that Story, I was wondering if it just flew over the head or what :)



I think there has to be a functional head for a statemnt to fly over. Alas, your target is not in possesion of one.

"Goram it kid, let's frak this thing and go home! Engage!"

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Tuesday, February 28, 2012 8:58 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Hello,

I believe every law abiding American citizen should have the opportunity to purchase a weapon for their defense. I believe that every American should be able to afford to purchase such a weapon.

Which of course means that every American must be forced to purchase a weapon.

In Santorum/Auraptor logic land.

--Anthony

_______________________________________________

"In every war, the state enacts a tax of freedom upon the citizenry. The unspoken promise is that the tax shall be revoked at war's end. Endless war holds no such promise. Hence, Eternal War is Eternal Slavery." --Admiral Robert J. Henner


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Tuesday, February 28, 2012 9:00 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Anthony

Sorry, but 2nd Amendment rights don't apply to college education.

Two entirely different issues.

Pretty weak comparison, actually.

" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Tuesday, February 28, 2012 9:00 AM

STORYMARK


Quote:

Originally posted by AnthonyT:
Hello,

I believe every law abiding American citizen should have the opportunity to purchase a weapon for their defense. I believe that every American should be able to afford to purchase such a weapon.

Which of course means that every American must be forced to purchase a weapon.

In Santorum/Auraptor logic land.

--Anthony




Well said.

"Goram it kid, let's frak this thing and go home! Engage!"

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Tuesday, February 28, 2012 9:05 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:
Anthony

Sorry, but 2nd Amendment rights don't apply to college education.

Two entirely different issues.

Pretty weak comparison, actually.

" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "



Hello,

I didn't mention the second amendment. Take my statement for what it is, and not what you need it to be in order to wrongly dismiss it.

--Anthony


_______________________________________________

"In every war, the state enacts a tax of freedom upon the citizenry. The unspoken promise is that the tax shall be revoked at war's end. Endless war holds no such promise. Hence, Eternal War is Eternal Slavery." --Admiral Robert J. Henner


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Tuesday, February 28, 2012 9:06 AM

STORYMARK


Quote:

Originally posted by AnthonyT:
Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:
Anthony

Sorry, but 2nd Amendment rights don't apply to college education.

Two entirely different issues.

Pretty weak comparison, actually.

" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "



Hello,

I didn't mention the second amendment. Take my statement for what it is, and not what you need it to be in order to wrongly dismiss it.

--Anthony


_______________________________________________

"In every war, the state enacts a tax of freedom upon the citizenry. The unspoken promise is that the tax shall be revoked at war's end. Endless war holds no such promise. Hence, Eternal War is Eternal Slavery." --Admiral Robert J. Henner




You're expecting him to comprehend an analogy...?

Good luck.

"Goram it kid, let's frak this thing and go home! Engage!"

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Tuesday, February 28, 2012 9:07 AM

BLUEHANDEDMENACE


Welcome to Rappy missing the point.

This is a good illustration of the Republican Bubble, as Bill Maher calls it.

Nowhere in Anthony's post does it say that the 2nd amendment applies to college.

Its not even close to that, and yet somehow thats what Rappy read. Dont ask me how, I couldnt make that leap myself, no idea here.

The point, Rappy, is that U SAID Obama saying every child should be prepared for college is forcing them to go to college.

Its what u said.

Anthony's satire USED the 2nd Amendment to show how absurd a position that is for u to take.

extremely well done satire i might add.

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Tuesday, February 28, 2012 9:10 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!



Anthony -

I didn't wrongly dismiss it. I disagreed w/ your analogy. It's an absurd analogy, to compare the purchase of a fire arm, to that of obtaining a college degree.


" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Tuesday, February 28, 2012 9:13 AM

KPO

"Love is natural and real. But not for you my love. Not tonight my love..."


I've never asked myself this before, but... Is Auraptor a liberal sock puppet? Out to utterly discredit right-wing political thought? He seems too good to be true.

It's not personal. It's just war.

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Tuesday, February 28, 2012 9:14 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!




I didn't miss the point. But go ahead and claim I did. Also claim I lied, too, while you're at it. And call me a racist, homophobe, bigot, and a misogynist, too. Oh, and don't forget to call me stupid. Can't omit that one.





" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Tuesday, February 28, 2012 9:15 AM

STORYMARK


Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:

Anthony -

I didn't wrongly dismiss it. I disagreed w/ your analogy. It's an absurd analogy, to compare the purchase of a fire arm, to that of obtaining a college degree.


" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

....sigh.

And once again, by insisting he gets it, he proves he does not.

Keep it up, Wilbur.

"Goram it kid, let's frak this thing and go home! Engage!"

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Tuesday, February 28, 2012 9:17 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Hello,

Sometimes, Mr. Raptor, I understand why people can be incited to treat you so harshly.

I am using an example of logic. It really doesn't matter what the analogy is. What's important is the IF / THEN nature of logic itself.

I believe that the American people would benefit from vitamin supplements, which may fill gaps in their nutrition. I believe that every American should be able to afford Vitamin supplements.

Which means (according to your interpretation of Obama) I want to force the American people to buy vitamin supplements.

Let's try something else.

I believe that the American people would benefit from following a conservative philosophy. I believe that every American should have the opportunity to vote conservative.

Which means (according to your interpretation of Obama) I want to force the American people to vote conservative.

The analogy shows yours (and Santorum's) logical fallacy.

It's not about vitamins or conservatives or the 2nd amendment. It's about broken thinking. Santorum's, and also yours.

--Anthony

_______________________________________________

"In every war, the state enacts a tax of freedom upon the citizenry. The unspoken promise is that the tax shall be revoked at war's end. Endless war holds no such promise. Hence, Eternal War is Eternal Slavery." --Admiral Robert J. Henner


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Tuesday, February 28, 2012 9:22 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by kpo:
I've never asked myself this before, but... Is Auraptor a liberal sock puppet? Out to utterly discredit right-wing thinking? He seems too good to be true.

It's not personal. It's just war.



No,I'm an actual person, real and true. The problem is, my views apparently are so foreign to yours, or what you're use to hearing, that you can't fathom that anyone would actually believe in what I say, or think.

Or even more, that anyone would NOT believe in what YOU do. I guess, in your minds, you've made me out to be the enemy, and therefore, anything NOT like you must be ganged up on, attacked, and ridiculed. It's pretty basic school yard mentality, really.


" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Tuesday, February 28, 2012 9:23 AM

KPO

"Love is natural and real. But not for you my love. Not tonight my love..."


I'll explain Anthony's point for you Auraptor, because you're having a 'mare as we say in England:

Obama said all Americans should have the opportunity to go to college (take a look, that's all he said). Santorum interpreted that as 'all Americans should go to college'. Anthony applied the same logic to gun rights: "all Americans should have the opportunity to buy and own a gun" apparently means "all Americans must (or should) own a gun".

The logic is shown to be absurd.

EDIT: Ok well done Anthony, you've already explained it perfectly.

It's not personal. It's just war.

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Tuesday, February 28, 2012 9:42 AM

STORYMARK


Quote:

Originally posted by kpo:

EDIT: Ok well done Anthony, you've already explained it perfectly.




You both explained it very well.

And both explainations will fall on willfully deaf ears.

"Goram it kid, let's frak this thing and go home! Engage!"

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Tuesday, February 28, 2012 9:43 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Anthony -

When ever a politician, particularly a LIBERAL politician, talks about how EVERYONE should be able to do this or that, or how EVERYONE should be able to afford this or that, the REALITY is that they're talking about entitlements. And in this case, of school education, it means govt give-aways.

Who has set RULES for college loans ? Obama.

Quote:

The Obama plan calls for the U.S. Department of Education to move from its current 20% share of the student-loan origination market to 80% on July 1, 2010, when private lenders will be barred from making government-guaranteed loans.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052970203440104574405154157021
052.html




So, when Obama gives flowery speeches on everyone going to college ( or, everyone AFFORDING college ) , what he's really driving at is a system where govt basically pays for everyone to go to college.

My view is that the govt should not be so invested in making it a RIGHT that everyone go to college. Just as it is not a RIGHT that everyone receive free healthcare. Those things, imo, go beyond the scope of the proper function of govt. If Sen. Santorum and I agree on this matter, so be it. He's not alone on the matter. Ron Paul also agrees.

Ron Paul defends eventual end to federal student loans


“Why should people who are laborers who never get to go to college, why should they be taxed to send some of us through college?” Paul said Sunday on CNN. “So it’s not even a fair system when it works. But obviously it doesn’t work and that’s why it’s coming to an end.”


http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2011/10/30/ron-paul-defends-event
ual-end-to-federal-student-loans
/

KPO - If you're from England, then I don't expect you to understand very much at all what I mean on certain matters. I have more Libertarian views on govt spending, which likely are completely foreign and opposite to what you were brought up knowing.

" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Tuesday, February 28, 2012 9:46 AM

KPO

"Love is natural and real. But not for you my love. Not tonight my love..."


Quote:

Or even more, that anyone would NOT believe in what YOU do. I guess, in your minds, you've made me out to be the enemy, and therefore, anything NOT like you must be ganged up on, attacked, and ridiculed.

On the contrary, I'm very interested in people who think differently from me, and why, and how. And I don't think you're the enemy, or a bad person. But I do think you have BIG reasoning flaws, and logical blind spots, that enable you to be as partisan as you are.

It's not personal. It's just war.

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Tuesday, February 28, 2012 9:49 AM

STORYMARK


See?

"Goram it kid, let's frak this thing and go home! Engage!"

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Tuesday, February 28, 2012 9:51 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by Storymark:
See?



Story, the deaf ears are yours. I gave a very full and direct response, and it flew completely over your head.





" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Tuesday, February 28, 2012 9:59 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


I was getting the dogs out, but I'm back so I will answer your question. How is it different? Becuase it includes facts and citations, and quotes used entirely IN context - and not a bunch of paranoid speculation and invention. I did my research, I showed the omission, hypocrisy, flip flop and lie, as well as the absurdity of saying almost exactly what Obama did with respect to education; that vocational classes or some other way of gaining SKILLS to get a job is what is optimum.

I'll have to keep editing this, I see, as more and more comes up. With respect to my "reaching", no, I didn't. I heard it last night on CNN so went to the internet and read SEVERAL ARTICLES, both pro and con, about what he had said, what Obama had said, and other facts. Then I put up articles which best represented those facts. I don't "reach", I see things in the news that grab my attention, then follow them up if they're interesting enough. This one made my head spin...as it should anyone's!



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Tuesday, February 28, 2012 10:00 AM

KPO

"Love is natural and real. But not for you my love. Not tonight my love..."


Quote:

I have more Libertarian views on govt spending, which likely are completely foreign and opposite to what you were brought up knowing.

I would like to think I understand the Libertarian viewpoint fairly well, and even - despite the disadvantage of my European upbringing - that I understand it better than YOU (sometimes it seems to me you are far from Libertarian, without realising it).

So I would like to challenge you to a Libertarian duel. Let's both take an online political-compass type test, and aim for 100% Libertarian - and whoever gets closest understands Libertarianism best. Deal?

It's not personal. It's just war.

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Tuesday, February 28, 2012 10:09 AM

STORYMARK


Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:
Quote:

Originally posted by Storymark:
See?



Story, the deaf ears are yours. I gave a very full and direct response, and it few completely over your head.





" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "



A full and direct response that deliberately avoided the logic issues everyone was pointing out by insisting you.

Just as I predicted.

Instead, you tried to shift the focus from your dumb-ass response to a simple analogy, by insisting that you, with your magical powers, have insight into what Obama REALLY meant, but only YOU know.

You just dive deeper into your delusions by the day. I love it.

Oh, but you regurgited the "flew over head" line that was used against you. That's right up there with your "I know you are" comeback.

Pretty soon, you'll be up to 3rd grade level. Good job!

"Goram it kid, let's frak this thing and go home! Engage!"

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Tuesday, February 28, 2012 10:16 AM

KPO

"Love is natural and real. But not for you my love. Not tonight my love..."


I have to go now AU - so I'll have to do the duel another time.

But you can get started: take an online politics test, aim for 100% Libertarian and post your score (no cheating). I'll do it when I come back.

Alternatively Anthony (as the most authenticaly Libertarian RWED poster to my mind) could choose the test?

It's not personal. It's just war.

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Tuesday, February 28, 2012 10:46 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Okay, final words on the subject.

Thank you, Blue:
Quote:

In my opinion, Niki's posts are to begin a discussion, maybe not all of them, but in general.

Your posting attitude is that you are teaching people about things they dont know, which is arrogant, and typically absurd. You reach as hard as u can to correlate some quote by someone on "The Left" and then make generalizations and conclusion about it.

Niki posts things on current events. Using this thread as an example, Santorum said something outrageous, that even he had to back away from immediately (check his fox interview the next day).

How is that not topical, during an election campaign?

Yes, MOST of my threads are things I think might be of interest to discuss...some are not, some are satirical snarks, but mostly I look for interesting news stories. And yes, I'm biased as to WHICH news stories, in that Alt.Univ. and his crew will always find the ones that diss the left, and I will put up those that diss the right about 90% of the time (I have put up more than one dissing the left over time, I might note).

On the subject of education, Santorum's idea that there are tons of folk out there with talents which don't require a degree, here are a few things to take into consideration. The mention of "FPs" is "for-profit" education providers, like:
Quote:

This trajectory is clear: in 1973, twenty-five million jobs required applicants to have at least some college education. By 2007, that number had nearly quadrupled to ninety-one million jobs. During that time, the percentage of jobs available to high school dropouts fell from 32 percent to 11 percent, while the percentage of jobs requiring some education after high school grew from 28 percent to 59 percent (Carnevale, Smith and Strohl, 2010).

Just as importantly, the changing labor market will continue to push demand. The National Bureau of Economic Research states that there is a, “growing mismatch between the jobs that will be created over the next decade and the education training of our adult workers.” Those jobs that rely on workers with only a high school education or less are quickly receding in numbers and importance (Heckman, Humphries and Maden, 2010). Another recent analysis funded by a number of foundations looking to promote higher education attainment levels in the US, and worried over the progress of economic competitors, notes that, “Postsecondary education has become the threshold requirement for a middle-class family income,” and that the Great Recession is accelerating the shift in jobs that require a college degree. Yet the educational attainment level of both lower income families and the middle class is dropping (Carnevale, Smith and Strohl, 2010).

The Great Recession has accelerated these financial troubles for public colleges and universities, where currently some 80 percent of all students in the US are enrolled. In the mega-state of California, for example, it has led to estimates that in the 2010-11 academic year approximately 250,000 eligible students were denied access to the state’s public higher education system. Over 200,000 would have enrolled normally in one of California’s 110 community colleges; but the lack of funding and an extremely low tuition and fee policy resulted in large-scale decreases in the teaching staff and the number of courses that could be offered (Douglass, 2010b).

President Obama announced in 2009 the goal that by 2020, “America will once again have the highest proportion of college graduates in the world.” He also asked that every American commit to at least one year or more of higher education or career training. “This can be Community College or a four year school; vocational training or an apprenticeship. But whatever the training may be, every American will need to get more than a high school diploma” (White House, 2009).

The inability of the public sector to meet current let alone future demand, means that California and other states are experiencing the “Brazilian Effect”: namely, and as noted previously, when public higher education cannot keep pace with growing public demand for access and programs, FPs rush to fill that gap. This is the pattern in many developing economies including Brazil. Unlike the American experience, there is only a small presence of large corporate FPs – although many US companies are attempting to change that. To be fair, Brazil has recently made significant strides to regulate its non-public providers through a new accreditation process to weed out or force improvement in the sector, and has pushed the development of three-year colleges oriented toward vocational degree programs. There is recognized value in the for-profit sector but a sense that it has taken up too much of the market share of higher education.

California is on the opposite side of the curve. There is currently a steep rise in enrollment in FPs in California precisely because of budget and enrollment cuts, as well as failure to expand degree programs within the state’s tripartite public higher education system and that includes the ten campus University of California, the twenty three campus California State University, CSU, and a network of 112 Community Colleges. Like in other parts of the US, and the world, FPs serve a large proportion of California students who come from “underserved communities,” and are on average from low-income minority groups. In 2008, 29 percent of students in California for-profits were from low-income backgrounds, and 31 percent were African-American, Latino, or Native American. And like the national averages, attrition rates in California at these institutions are very high and degree production rates low, and students end up with large debts (Carey and Dillon, 2011). http://cshe.berkeley.edu/publications/docs/ROPS.JAD.ForProfitsUS.2.15.
2012.pdf

The treatise is about the problems with for-profit education (virtually always vocational), and showed problems with that sector when it comes to several issues. Given the for-profit educational organizations are those most providing vocational education, it's a serious issue and might want to make people think twice about enrolling in one:
Quote:

On August 4, 2010, Senator Tom Harkin gaveled into session what was to be the first of six hearings on the For-Profit higher education sector. Armed with the findings of the Government Accountability Office that reported predatory recruiting practices by 15 FP campuses that violated federal laws, Harkin’s views marked a strong contrast to the open market leanings of Republicans and the past Bush administration. It was about consumer protection and federal spending. “Education is too important for the future of this country,” he said. “Facing the budget problems we have in the next 10 years, we just can't permit more and more of the taxpayers' dollars that are supposed to go for education and quality education … to be going to pay shareholders or private investors” (Harkin, 2010).

The GAO report accused both the University of Phoenix and Kaplan College of paying recruiters bonuses for enticing and enrolling students, almost all of whom needed substantial taxpayer funded financial aid – a violation of federal law. There was also evidence that these and other FPs targeted veterans with benefits under the Post-9/11 GI Bill; they charged extremely high tuition rates for programs that, in Harkin’s words, “may bring little benefit to future employment opportunities, low graduation rates and high default rates” (Harkin, 2010). Same

In other words, far from being a snob, Santorum sneering at Obama's wish for all Americans to be able to get higher education is right in line with the demands of the market, there are serious problems with vocational training (in the method, the benefit to students and the outcome), and if one wishes the best for the American people, some form of higher education--usually a degree--is the best way to attain that.

Ergo, if you look at the FACTS of what the market will demand of our young people, the high tuition and low graduation rates of for-profit vocational education, it is NOT the optimum method of getting a good job. Community colleges haven't got a much bigger graduation rate, but cost FAR less; colleges and universities have the best graduation records, the best job-attainment potential, AND leave the graduate with high debt. So I guess it's "pick your poison".

That's a threadjack from Santorum's original statement, meant to show that even if Obama HAD said everyone should be able to get a college degree, Santorum's comeback that he's a snob is 100% wrong: A college degree in today's world IS the best way to get a good job. So he lied AND he's wrong.

As to Alt.Univ., he will defend anything said by anyone on the right to the death, and will not use whatever reasoning power he has to look it in the eye. He will also threadjack anything I or anyone else puts up which is positive toward anything liberal just as FAST as he humanly can with some kind of snark which will trigger others into arguing with him, rather than intelligently discussing the issue. Arguing with him--because it IS arguing, rarely ever debate--is a total waste of time which I HAVE to believe you two, Story and Mike, could better use elsewhere. In essence, "you're smarter than that".

The very last thing on this Earth that Alt.Univ. is, is libertarian. I'll wait to see the results of the proposed duel...which I actually doubt will happen anyway...for the proof of that. IF we could believe whatever score AU decides to claim.



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Tuesday, February 28, 2012 10:57 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:
Quote:

Originally posted by Storymark:
See?



Story, the deaf ears are yours. I gave a very full and direct response, and it few completely over your head.





" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "




Hello,

Mr. Raptor, you did give a full and direct response. Unfortunately it did not touch on the logical fallacy I was addressing. (The one which you and Santorum made.) Instead you talked about entitlements and government social welfare programs.

Unfortunately, I have no links to reliable political surveys online. I've taken a few in the past, but I can't remember their links or names.

The results are always interesting. I've surprised myself on occasion.

Any good political score will have to be on two axis (axes? What's the plural of axis?) minimum.

--Anthony





_______________________________________________

"In every war, the state enacts a tax of freedom upon the citizenry. The unspoken promise is that the tax shall be revoked at war's end. Endless war holds no such promise. Hence, Eternal War is Eternal Slavery." --Admiral Robert J. Henner


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Tuesday, February 28, 2012 11:12 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by Niki2:

. How is it different? Becuase it includes facts and citations, and quotes used entirely IN context - and not a bunch of paranoid speculation and invention. I did my research, I showed the omission, hypocrisy, flip flop and lie, as well as the absurdity of saying almost exactly what Obama did with respect to education; that vocational classes or some other way of gaining SKILLS to get a job is what is optimum.



Well, I do the same things, quotes, links, in context, but that's NOT what I was asking.

Simply put, I'm not even asking about the Santorum statement specifically, but how you generally post things promoting Left wing issues, while vilifying those on the Right. I post similar things pro Right, anti- Left. That's to what I was referring.


" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Tuesday, February 28, 2012 11:19 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by kpo:
I have to go now AU - so I'll have to do the duel another time.

But you can get started: take an online politics test, aim for 100% Libertarian and post your score (no cheating). I'll do it when I come back.

It's not personal. It's just war.



KPO - I've taken the world's smallest political quiz, at LP.ORG, a few times. Always comes out about the same. Conservative Libertarian.

You ?

And what's with the " 100% Libertarian " remark ? I never claimed to be that, but said I leaned MORE towards libertarian views. From my past experience w/ some Europeans on this matter, I wonder if you have the false impression that Libertarians are full blown anarchists ? Who favors almost NO govt ? If so, then I understand your confusion. That ain't me, to quote one famous captain.



" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Tuesday, February 28, 2012 11:26 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Anthony - There was no logical fallacy in my response. I was dealing directly, literally, and to the point of the issue. You , inexplicably, decided to go off on some ridiculous tangent. Which is fine, but didn't address the over all issue. I am discussing the issues and polices of the Obama administration, and where he wants to take this country. Not fictitious scenarios about guns not having to do w/ 2nd Amendment rights.

Story - Pretty much writing you off has one who'll ever have a clue, at all.

Quote:

A full and direct response that deliberately avoided the logic issues everyone was pointing out by insisting you.


Insisting I.... what ?

Quote:



Just as I predicted.

Because you only see the world as you want to see it, not how it is.

Quote:

Instead, you tried to shift the focus from your dumb-ass response to a simple analogy, by insisting that you, with your magical powers, have insight into what Obama REALLY meant, but only YOU know.


Actually, if you read my post, you'd see that I gave Obama's own words, and cited where he said them. But again, deaf ears. ( or blind eyes )

Quote:

You just dive deeper into your delusions by the day. I love it.
Which delusions are those ? Care to be specific ? Or are you just mouthing empty nonsense, as a means of insulting me when you have no concrete, coherent reply ? We are getting deeper, the longer Obama is in office. That part ya got right.

Quote:

Oh, but you regurgited the "flew over head" line that was used against you. That's right up there with your "I know you are" comeback.


We're talking past each other, it seems, and you're unwilling to follow what I'm saying. Which has lead you down the wrong path entirely. I refuse to play your game, which is why you can claim something went over my head. I know what I'm talking about... do you ?

Quote:


Pretty soon, you'll be up to 3rd grade level. Good job!



An insult worthy of a 5th or 6th grader. Your mommy and daddy must be proud.

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