REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

That lovely, peaceful religion of peace...

POSTED BY: AURAPTOR
UPDATED: Friday, October 14, 2022 05:09
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Friday, February 24, 2012 2:59 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by CaveTroll:

A 1 minute search. Do you think there's a pattern here? Santorum and other christian fundamentalists in the US may talk a hard line, but they're not bombing mosques or temples or abducting islamics and jews.




No, they're saving their bombs for abortion clinics, aren't they?

And elsewhere hardline "christians" are murdering people for the crime of being "the ghey". And they're doing with with the tacit - if not the EXPLICIT - support and aid of hardliners here who'd like nothing more than to enact the same kinds of laws here.

"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill

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Saturday, February 25, 2012 5:13 AM

CAVETROLL


Quote:

Originally posted by AnthonyT:
Quote:

Originally posted by CaveTroll:
Quote:

No armed person can be a victim unless they will it.





Hello,

That's rather patently false. Being armed only improves your chances of resistance. It does not guarantee that you won't be victimized.

Armed people are victimized every day.




You fail to perceive the difference between being victimized and being a victim.

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Saturday, February 25, 2012 5:14 AM

CAVETROLL


Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:

No, they're saving their bombs for abortion clinics, aren't they?

And elsewhere hardline "christians" are murdering people for the crime of being "the ghey". And they're doing with with the tacit - if not the EXPLICIT - support and aid of hardliners here who'd like nothing more than to enact the same kinds of laws here.



Links please.

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Saturday, February 25, 2012 5:22 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Quote:

Originally posted by CaveTroll:
Quote:

Originally posted by AnthonyT:
Quote:

Originally posted by CaveTroll:
Quote:

No armed person can be a victim unless they will it.





Hello,

That's rather patently false. Being armed only improves your chances of resistance. It does not guarantee that you won't be victimized.

Armed people are victimized every day.




You fail to perceive the difference between being victimized and being a victim.







vic·tim (vktm)
n.
1. One who is harmed or killed by another: a victim of a mugging.

vic·tim·ize (vkt-mz)
tr.v. vic·tim·ized, vic·tim·iz·ing, vic·tim·iz·es
1. To subject to swindle or fraud.
2. To make a victim of.





Hello,

It seems pretty clear that someone who is victimized is made into a victim. A victim is one who is harmed or killed by another.

Wearing the white hat and having a gun doesn't mean you're not victimized. It doesn't mean you're not a victim. It means you had a cause and a chance. Not all causes succeed and not all chances end in your favor.

A gun isn't magic. It's just a tool. You can lose, and you can be a victim, even with a righteous cause and an arsenal at your disposal. Even though you might be valiant, brave, and strong. You can still be a victim.

There's no magic in this world that blesses the righteous and punishes the wicked. Look to the next world for that.

--Anthony

_______________________________________________

"In every war, the state enacts a tax of freedom upon the citizenry. The unspoken promise is that the tax shall be revoked at war's end. Endless war holds no such promise. Hence, Eternal War is Eternal Slavery." --Admiral Robert J. Henner


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Saturday, February 25, 2012 6:36 AM

PIZMOBEACH

... fully loaded, safety off...


Quote:

Originally posted by CaveTroll:
Quote:

Originally posted by pizmobeach:
CaveTroll - your search turned up the same web site. Looking at their site it appears like they may not be the most objective source:




Are any of the linked sources demonstrably false? If you are objecting to their spin, everyone puts spin on stories. If they're all linked from the same source you can at least subtract the spin.



I'd like to see spin relegated to the dustbin of history... It seemed like you were trying to suggest with all of those links that the proof was widespread, from many sources, when it was really from the same source, and one with a clear agenda.

Quote:

Originally posted by CaveTroll:
I take it you couldn't be troubled to look up jizyah?



I confess I didn't get the connection from what I read:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jizya

Under Islamic law, jizya or jizyah (Arabic: جزية‎ ǧizyah IPA: [dʒizja]; Ottoman Turkish: cizye; both derived from Pahlavi and possibly from Aramaic gaziyat[1]) is a per capita tax levied on a section of an Islamic state's non-Muslim citizens, who meet certain criteria.

A tax on Christians?

Quote:

Originally posted by CaveTroll:
And yes, christians can be zealots too. Fortunately we have the 1st amendment to control zealotry here. And when that fails we have the 2nd amendment.



What does everyone else have?



Scifi movie music + Firefly dialogue clips, 24 hours a day - http://www.scifiradio.com

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Saturday, February 25, 2012 6:57 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Quote:

No armed person can be a victim unless they will it.
What a crazy statement! Of COURSE they can; they are every day, all over the country!
Quote:

Fortunately we have the 1st amendment to control zealotry here. And when that fails we have the 2nd amendment.
Also a ridiculous statement. Neither amendment has stopped all the killing of gays, bombing of abortion clinics, murdering of doctors, terrorism and violence against gays AND those in any way involved in clinics which provide abortions (like receptionists...), and all the other heinous crimes committed against "the other" in this country. The advocacy of that, the publishing of the addresses of the victims and exhortations of "get 'em!", etc., tells its own story.



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Saturday, February 25, 2012 6:59 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by Niki2:

Also a ridiculous statement. Neither amendment has stopped all the killing of gays, bombing of abortion clinics, murdering of doctors, terrorism and violence against gays AND those in any way involved in clinics which provide abortions (like receptionists...), and all the other heinous crimes committed against "the other" in this country. The advocacy of that, the publishing of the addresses of the victims and exhortations of "get 'em!", etc., tells its own story.



2nd Amendment rights did allow for immigrant store owners to protect their property during the LA riots.

But I guess they aren't "other" enough for you,huh?


" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Saturday, February 25, 2012 12:02 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by CaveTroll:
Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:

No, they're saving their bombs for abortion clinics, aren't they?

And elsewhere hardline "christians" are murdering people for the crime of being "the ghey". And they're doing with with the tacit - if not the EXPLICIT - support and aid of hardliners here who'd like nothing more than to enact the same kinds of laws here.



Links please.




Take your pick.

http://www.newstatesman.com/human-rights/2009/11/sexual-gay-uganda-bil
l-person


http://news.change.org/stories/stopping-gay-genocide-in-uganda

http://www.guardian.co.uk/katine/2009/dec/04/gideon-byamugisha-homosex
uality-bill


http://terryangelmason.newsvine.com/_news/2011/04/09/6441473-an-open-l
etter-to-the-architects-of-the-ugandan-gay-genocide


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Fellowship_(Christian_organization)

http://lgbtpov.frontiersla.com/2011/05/11/uganda-kill-the-gays-bill-an
d-the-christian-right-connection
/

http://creoleneworleans.typepad.com/creole_folks/2010/09/americas-gop-
pushes-for-gay-genocide-in-uganda-africa.html


"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill

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Saturday, February 25, 2012 12:05 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by CaveTroll:

No armed person can be a victim unless they will it.




http://abcnews.go.com/US/tucson-swat-team-defends-shooting-iraq-marine
-veteran/story?id=13640112#.T0lagESot4o



Guess he must've "willed it", huh?

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Saturday, February 25, 2012 12:07 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:
Quote:

Originally posted by Niki2:

Also a ridiculous statement. Neither amendment has stopped all the killing of gays, bombing of abortion clinics, murdering of doctors, terrorism and violence against gays AND those in any way involved in clinics which provide abortions (like receptionists...), and all the other heinous crimes committed against "the other" in this country. The advocacy of that, the publishing of the addresses of the victims and exhortations of "get 'em!", etc., tells its own story.



2nd Amendment rights did allow for immigrant store owners to protect their property during the LA riots.

But I guess they aren't "other" enough for you,huh?




Were those "immigrant store owners" United States citizens?

"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill

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Sunday, February 26, 2012 5:30 AM

CAVETROLL


Here you go Pizmo, spin this one.

http://www.wnd.com/2012/02/atheist-choked-by-muslim-and-then/

Muslim judge, muslim defendant, US court, case thrown out.

Quote:


A Muslim judge in Pennsylvania – who scolded a local atheist for offending Islam, called him a doofus and accused him of “using the First Amendment” to madden Muslims – dismissed harassment charges against the Muslim defendant who purportedly choked the atheist during a Halloween parade.

District Judge Mark Martin brought a Quran to court and told the alleged victim, American Atheists’ Pennsylvania State Director Ernest Perce V, “I think you misinterpreted a couple of things. So before you start mocking somebody else’s religion, you might want to find out a little more about it. It kind of makes you look like a doofus.”

The judge added, “I think our forefathers intended to use the First Amendment so we can speak with our mind, not to p— off other people and cultures – which is what you did.”

Perce had worn a “zombie Muhammad” costume and proclaimed that he was the Prophet Muhammad risen from the dead at the Oct, 11, 2011, event in Mechanicsburg, Pa. A “zombie pope” was also featured in the parade that night.

Now the Scranton Atheism Examiner reports that Perce could be arrested for posting audio of the judge scolding him for mocking Muhammad. According to report, the Muslim judge has threatened to hold him in contempt of court for releasing the recording. Perce has claimed he was given permission to post the audio.

The Examiner reports that Perce said he posted the audio because the judge treated him unfairly and showed preferential treatment for the Muslim defendant.

According to reports, the atheists were marching when Talaag Elbayomy, a Muslim, stormed out of the crowd and assaulted Perce, grabbing a sign around his neck and pulling until the strings choked him.

The men caught the attention of a nearby police officer.

Mechanicsburg Police Officer Bryan Curtis told Pennsylvania’s WHTM-TV, “Mr. Perce has the right to do what he did that evening, and the defendant in this case was wrong in what he did in confronting him.”

He added, “I believe that I brought a case that showed proof beyond a reasonable doubt, and the case was dismissed, and I was disappointed.”

Elbayomy – who said he believed it was illegal to mock Muhammad – was charged with harassment. He denied touching Perce at trial, but Officer Curtis said Elbayomy admitted grabbing Perce’s sign and beard the night of the incident.

However, Judge Martin dismissed the charges and purportedly belittled the atheist victim.

The following is an excerpt of the Muslim judge’s lecture in which he scolded Perce for offending Islam:

Well, having had the benefit of having spent over two-and-a-half years in predominantly Muslim countries, I think I know a little bit about the faith of Islam. In fact, I have a copy of the Quran here, and I would challenge you, Sir, to show me where it says in the Quran that Muhammad arose and walked among the dead. I think you misinterpreted a couple of things. So before you start mocking somebody else’s religion, you might want to find out a little more about it. It kind of makes you look like a doofus. …

In many other Muslim-speaking countries, err, excuse me, many Arabic-speaking countries, predominantly Muslim, something like this is definitely against the law there, in their society. In fact, it could be punished by death, and frequently is, in their society.

Here in our society, we have a Constitution that gives us many rights, specifically First Amendment rights. It’s unfortunate that some people use the First Amendment to deliberately provoke others. I don’t think that’s what our forefathers intended. I think our forefathers intended to use the First Amendment so we can speak with our mind, not to p— off other people and cultures – which is what you did.

I don’t think you’re aware, Sir, there’s a big difference between how Americans practice Christianity – I understand you’re an atheist – but see Islam is not just a religion. It’s their culture, their culture, their very essence, their very being. They pray five times a day toward Mecca. To be a good Muslim before you die, you have to make a pilgrimage to Mecca, unless you’re otherwise told you cannot because you’re too ill, too elderly, whatever, but you must make the attempt. Their greeting is ‘Salam alaikum, wa-laikum as-Salam,’ uh, ‘May God be with you.’

Whenever it is very common, their language, when they’re speaking to each other, it’s very common for them to say, uh, Allah willing, this will happen. It’s, they’re so immersed in it. And what you’ve done is, you’ve completely trashed their essence, their being. They find it very, very, very offensive. I’m a Muslim. I find it offensive. I find what’s on the other side of this [sign] very offensive. (Editor’s note: Reverse of sign said, “Only Muhammad can rape America!) But you have that right, but you are way outside your bounds of First Amendment rights. …

I’ve spent about seven years living in other countries. When we go to other countries, it’s not uncommon for people to refer to us as ‘ugly Americans.’ This is why we hear it referred to as ‘ugly Americans,’ because we’re so concerned about our own rights, we don’t care about other people’s rights. As long as we get our say, but we don’t care about the other people’s say.

The judge later added, “Because there was not, it is not proven to me beyond a reasonable doubt that this defendant is guilty of harassment, therefore, I am going to dismiss the charge.”

Carl Silverman of the Parading Atheists of Central Pennsylvania told WHTM-TV, “We understand that Muslims are extremely sensitive. But this is America, and you need to get over the sensitivity and take out your opposition in peaceful ways – not by attacking people physically.



Yessir, if you don't like what someone is saying, just go over and hit 'em. And not get charged with assault. Any comments on this? Or is this going to be one of those posts where there is an inexplicable silence?

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Sunday, February 26, 2012 5:35 AM

CAVETROLL


Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:
Quote:

Originally posted by CaveTroll:

No armed person can be a victim unless they will it.




http://abcnews.go.com/US/tucson-swat-team-defends-shooting-iraq-marine
-veteran/story?id=13640112#.T0lagESot4o



Guess he must've "willed it", huh?



He wasn't a victim. He attempted to defend himself and failed, but that of itself does not make him a victim.

Armed gives you a chance. That doesn't mean you will prevail. Thermopylae, Alamo, Camerone, Phillipines, Iwo Jima, Isandlwana, were the men at those battles victims? No.

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Sunday, February 26, 2012 5:39 AM

CAVETROLL


Quote:

Originally posted by pizmobeach:

I confess I didn't get the connection from what I read:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jizya

Under Islamic law, jizya or jizyah (Arabic: ????? gizyah IPA: [d?izja]; Ottoman Turkish: cizye; both derived from Pahlavi and possibly from Aramaic gaziyat[1]) is a per capita tax levied on a section of an Islamic state's non-Muslim citizens, who meet certain criteria.

A tax on Christians?




Understand that jizyah is not a secular law. It is islamic. That means that everywhere there is a theocracy, or where the government acknowledges islamic law as the sanctioned religion, christians, jews, buddhists, pagans, have to pay the jizyah.

If the US were as anti-everything-but-christianity as claimed we could tax them. OOPS! There's that 1st amendment preventing that sort of thing happening here.

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Sunday, February 26, 2012 5:50 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Quote:

He wasn't a victim. He attempted to defend himself and failed, but that of itself does not make him a victim.


Hello,

Yes, he was a victim. The definition of being victimized and being a victim does not care whether you tried or not. It does not care how valiant or full of conviction or well-armed you were. It only cares whether an aggressor harmed you.

I understand that you have created some kind of personal definition of victim, laced with personal feelings about standing up for yourself, but please understand that your personal definition has no relation to standard language or logic.

I am a proponent of gun freedoms, and of self-defense. But when you say things like, (I paraphrase) "You can't be a victim if you try to defend yourself" it promotes a distorted view of reality. A righteous stance and a gun may give you a chance to survive, but it does not guarantee that you won't be a victim. You can try your hardest and still be a victim.

--Anthony



_______________________________________________

"In every war, the state enacts a tax of freedom upon the citizenry. The unspoken promise is that the tax shall be revoked at war's end. Endless war holds no such promise. Hence, Eternal War is Eternal Slavery." --Admiral Robert J. Henner


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Sunday, February 26, 2012 5:51 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Quote:

If the US were as anti-everything-but-christianity as claimed we could tax them.


Hello,

Actually, I think church profits should be taxed, but that's unrelated to the subject at hand.

--Anthony


_______________________________________________

"In every war, the state enacts a tax of freedom upon the citizenry. The unspoken promise is that the tax shall be revoked at war's end. Endless war holds no such promise. Hence, Eternal War is Eternal Slavery." --Admiral Robert J. Henner


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Sunday, February 26, 2012 6:08 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

Santorum and other christian fundamentalists in the US may talk a hard line, but they're not bombing mosques or temples or abducting islamics and jews.
Not in THIS country. But we do a great job doing all of that stuff in other nations.

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Sunday, February 26, 2012 6:27 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Quote:

Originally posted by SignyM:
Quote:

Santorum and other christian fundamentalists in the US may talk a hard line, but they're not bombing mosques or temples or abducting islamics and jews.
Not in THIS country. But we do a great job doing all of that stuff in other nations.



Hello,

On that note, Signy, it's not just christian fundamentalists who do it.

--Anthony


_______________________________________________

"In every war, the state enacts a tax of freedom upon the citizenry. The unspoken promise is that the tax shall be revoked at war's end. Endless war holds no such promise. Hence, Eternal War is Eternal Slavery." --Admiral Robert J. Henner


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Sunday, February 26, 2012 6:59 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


I guess what I'm trying to point out is that other people may be just as afraid of us as we are of them. Or more so.

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Sunday, February 26, 2012 7:04 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Quote:

Originally posted by SignyM:
I guess what I'm trying to point out is that other people may be just as afraid of us as we are of them. Or more so.



Hello,

Moreso, I'd wager. We can back up any rhetoric with the requisite force. We can topple nations, change regimes, assassinate opponents, disappear people forever, and torture them at will.

There is no restraint on our desires but two: The threat of Armageddon, and what we can afford to buy or borrow.

--Anthony

_______________________________________________

"In every war, the state enacts a tax of freedom upon the citizenry. The unspoken promise is that the tax shall be revoked at war's end. Endless war holds no such promise. Hence, Eternal War is Eternal Slavery." --Admiral Robert J. Henner


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Sunday, February 26, 2012 1:38 PM

CAVETROLL


Quote:

Originally posted by AnthonyT:
Quote:

He wasn't a victim. He attempted to defend himself and failed, but that of itself does not make him a victim.


...I understand that you have created some kind of personal definition of victim, laced with personal feelings about standing up for yourself, but please understand that your personal definition has no relation to standard language or logic.

I am a proponent of gun freedoms, and of self-defense. But when you say things like, (I paraphrase) "You can't be a victim if you try to defend yourself" it promotes a distorted view of reality. A righteous stance and a gun may give you a chance to survive, but it does not guarantee that you won't be a victim. You can try your hardest and still be a victim...






It is about accepting responsibility for your own safety and preparing before the moment of crisis. Bad things can happen even if you are prepared, but that does not make you a victim. Even if you don't survive. If you can't grasp that concept, then we might as well agree to disagree.

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Sunday, February 26, 2012 1:56 PM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Quote:

Originally posted by CaveTroll:
Quote:

Originally posted by AnthonyT:
Quote:

He wasn't a victim. He attempted to defend himself and failed, but that of itself does not make him a victim.


...I understand that you have created some kind of personal definition of victim, laced with personal feelings about standing up for yourself, but please understand that your personal definition has no relation to standard language or logic.

I am a proponent of gun freedoms, and of self-defense. But when you say things like, (I paraphrase) "You can't be a victim if you try to defend yourself" it promotes a distorted view of reality. A righteous stance and a gun may give you a chance to survive, but it does not guarantee that you won't be a victim. You can try your hardest and still be a victim...






It is about accepting responsibility for your own safety and preparing before the moment of crisis. Bad things can happen even if you are prepared, but that does not make you a victim. Even if you don't survive. If you can't grasp that concept, then we might as well agree to disagree.



Hello,

We must indeed agree to disagree, as my language resources state something different from your personal philosophy.

--Anthony


_______________________________________________

"In every war, the state enacts a tax of freedom upon the citizenry. The unspoken promise is that the tax shall be revoked at war's end. Endless war holds no such promise. Hence, Eternal War is Eternal Slavery." --Admiral Robert J. Henner


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Sunday, February 26, 2012 3:00 PM

FREMDFIRMA



I find it ironic when I posted that incident with a responsable deconstruction and called for rational discussion thereof it was as usual completely ignored, and yet twice now it's been thrown as take-that propaganda by folks who clearly have no other purpose in mind.

Which says all I need to know.

-F

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Sunday, February 26, 2012 3:02 PM

OONJERAH



Excuse me. CaveTroll's definition of victim may not agree with the Dictionary.
But it agrees with the Transactional Analysis definition which says that Victims (a role) choose to be victimized.
See Games People Play by Dr. Eric Byrne, 1964.
Furthermore, a study of Transactional Analysis can guide one to the better choice. Self-honesty required.



Personal responsibility is the Truth.
Self determination triumphs over reaction.

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Sunday, February 26, 2012 3:15 PM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Quote:

Furthermore, a study of Transactional Analysis can guide one to the better choice. Self-honesty required.


Hello,

I personally choose not to remove victimhood by equating it to a lack of resistance. Such would remove victimization, or transform it to some other act.

I do not believe you can make adjustments on one side of the scale without making adjustments to the other. What you perceive as a victim is someone who has surrendered. But the victimization of people is not something I believe requires surrender on the part of the target.

The heinous act is heinous, the harm is harm, regardless of the actions of the victim. I do not believe the situation is transformed by the resistance of the victim. The victim themselves may take comfort in their resistance, and they may gain hope of a better outcome, but the act of victimization is not transformed in my eyes, nor is the target any less a victim of the crime.

--Anthony

_______________________________________________

"In every war, the state enacts a tax of freedom upon the citizenry. The unspoken promise is that the tax shall be revoked at war's end. Endless war holds no such promise. Hence, Eternal War is Eternal Slavery." --Admiral Robert J. Henner


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Sunday, February 26, 2012 9:20 PM

RIONAEIRE

Beir bua agus beannacht


Anthony, we can and should be using social pressure to encourage change, just like with other practices that are bad that people do to each other in other parts of the world.

Niki, so it sounds like you're saying there's no point in posting world news on this forum because it doesn't affect us personally. That is rediculous and you know it. Stuff that happens in other parts of the world does affect us, just like stuff we do affects them, people are connected and linked in this life.

Signe, I don't see the US as a "Christian nation" anymore. If you do a survey of people's beliefs a good chunk of respondants will say they believe in other things, or nothing at all, or they will say they don't know what they believe, it isn't important to them. Such surveys are poorly constructed currently but if people could just write in their religeon or lack there of we would see this. Some of our laws are still in place from earlier times when "Christian nation" was more accurate. What I'm saying is that America may be warring with Iraq etc. but it isn't about religeon, its about values, which aren't the same thing, they can relate but they aren't always exactly a match.

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya

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Monday, February 27, 2012 12:21 AM

MAGONSDAUGHTER


Quote:

Originally posted by Oonjerah:

Excuse me. CaveTroll's definition of victim may not agree with the Dictionary.
But it agrees with the Transactional Analysis definition which says that Victims (a role) choose to be victimized.
See Games People Play by Dr. Eric Byrne, 1964.
Furthermore, a study of Transactional Analysis can guide one to the better choice. Self-honesty required.




I didn't get that from Transactional Analysis. I got that behaviour is often unconscious, and we can remain 'the child' in our interactions with others. Being aware of our behaviour and responses, means we can start to choose how we respond. TA encourages us to act 'the Adult' in our interactions with other. The truth is we unconsciously move in and out of roles, often in the same interaction. But it has its uses, TA.

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Monday, February 27, 2012 12:24 AM

MAGONSDAUGHTER


Quote:

Originally posted by AnthonyT:
Quote:

Furthermore, a study of Transactional Analysis can guide one to the better choice. Self-honesty required.


Hello,

I personally choose not to remove victimhood by equating it to a lack of resistance. Such would remove victimization, or transform it to some other act.

I do not believe you can make adjustments on one side of the scale without making adjustments to the other. What you perceive as a victim is someone who has surrendered. But the victimization of people is not something I believe requires surrender on the part of the target.

The heinous act is heinous, the harm is harm, regardless of the actions of the victim. I do not believe the situation is transformed by the resistance of the victim. The victim themselves may take comfort in their resistance, and they may gain hope of a better outcome, but the act of victimization is not transformed in my eyes, nor is the target any less a victim of the crime.

--Anthony




yes, big thumbs up, Anthony, you nailed it.


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Monday, February 27, 2012 4:47 AM

CAVETROLL


Quote:

Originally posted by AnthonyT:


I personally choose not to remove victimhood by equating it to a lack of resistance. Such would remove victimization, or transform it to some other act...





It doesn't involve resistance, it involves preparation. In order to prepare you have to clearly appraise risk of an incident. Be it Mother Nature, random chance or ill intent. Most people I know stop at buying insurance. A handful make some modest provision (Life hammer in their car, fire extinguisher in their kitchen, etc.). A very few make an unflinching appraisal of the risk in their lives and do what they can to prepare for tragic events.

You can be prepared and have a tornado hit your house at 3am. Sound asleep you can be killed by nature. But that still doesn't make you a victim. (Going up against Mother Nature is a sucker bet, usually.) Does this mean a gun in your pocket and one concealed in every room of your house? No. Alertness is the best defense. Don't be there when bad things happen.

If you only want things that work 100% of the time then don't put locks on your doors and windows. They can be defeated and aren't 100% effective.

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Monday, February 27, 2012 5:37 AM

PIZMOBEACH

... fully loaded, safety off...


Quote:

Originally posted by CaveTroll:
Here you go Pizmo, spin this one.

http://www.wnd.com/2012/02/atheist-choked-by-muslim-and-then/

Muslim judge, muslim defendant, US court, case thrown out.

Yessir, if you don't like what someone is saying, just go over and hit 'em. And not get charged with assault. Any comments on this? Or is this going to be one of those posts where there is an inexplicable silence?



I don't think I've ever failed to reply to your direct posts - if you hit reply below a Kwicko post (as it looks like in this case) then he gets the notice, not me.

Anyway - this one is easy. I agree with the judge in all of this. First "muslim judge?" Where is that distinction made in the court system? Is it because he had some knowledge of muslim culture that the reports are trying to *tarnish* him with that?
That was a total doofus move too, pretty much by both. I think the judge wanted to minimize the fall out of this - Muslim V. non-Muslim is pretty sensitive area, you can get into a lot of deep doo-doo - so he basically wagged his finger at told the defendant to grow up and get the hell out of my courtroom, we have bigger matters to decide.

Judge's comments: "Here in our society, we have a Constitution that gives us many rights, specifically First Amendment rights. It’s unfortunate that some people use the First Amendment to deliberately provoke others. I don’t think that’s what our forefathers intended. I think our forefathers intended to use the First Amendment so we can speak with our mind, not to p— off other people and cultures – which is what you did."

Totally agree.

And come on, Atheists dressed as zombie Pope and zombie Mohammed?? Gee, they're not trying to provoke anything are they? I guess he got what he was looking for.

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Monday, February 27, 2012 5:47 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Hello Pizmo,

I am shocked at your position and disagree with you.

Only offensive speech needs to be protected, obviously. No one objects to the other kind.

Just as we can not assault Westboro Baptists, we can not assault zombie Mohammads.

Freedom of speech must absolutely apply to the most offensive speech around, else it's pointless.

--Anthony



_______________________________________________

"In every war, the state enacts a tax of freedom upon the citizenry. The unspoken promise is that the tax shall be revoked at war's end. Endless war holds no such promise. Hence, Eternal War is Eternal Slavery." --Admiral Robert J. Henner


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Monday, February 27, 2012 6:00 AM

PIZMOBEACH

... fully loaded, safety off...


Quote:

Originally posted by AnthonyT:
Hello Pizmo,

I am shocked at your position and disagree with you.

Only offensive speech needs to be protected, obviously. No one objects to the other kind.

Just as we can not assault Westboro Baptists, we can not assault zombie Mohammads.

Freedom of speech must absolutely apply to the most offensive speech around, else it's pointless.




I'm not sure you are serious...? If you are then:

I think you are blowing something 2 knuckleheads did way out of proportion. Will you celebrate you speech freedoms by visiting a baptist church and screaming, "you're all a bunch of low-life ni....ers!" Please video tape that so we can enjoy your courageous all-or-nothing position. I like to think you won't, because you exhibit a pretty good common sense in most things.

Besides, the judge he did not find conclusive proof that the zombie was assaulted - so: law followed, and armageddon averted.

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Monday, February 27, 2012 6:13 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Quote:

Originally posted by pizmobeach:
Quote:

Originally posted by AnthonyT:
Hello Pizmo,

I am shocked at your position and disagree with you.

Only offensive speech needs to be protected, obviously. No one objects to the other kind.

Just as we can not assault Westboro Baptists, we can not assault zombie Mohammads.

Freedom of speech must absolutely apply to the most offensive speech around, else it's pointless.




I'm not sure you are serious...? If you are then:

I think you are blowing something 2 knuckleheads did way out of proportion. Will you celebrate you speech freedoms by visiting a baptist church and screaming, "you're all a bunch of low-life ni....ers!" Please video tape that so we can enjoy your courageous all-or-nothing position. I like to think you won't, because you exhibit a pretty good common sense in most things.

Besides, the judge he did not find conclusive proof that the zombie was assaulted - so: law followed, and armageddon averted.

Scifi movie music + Firefly dialogue clips, 24 hours a day - http://www.scifiradio.com





Hello,

Why would I make speech regarding something I do not believe? I am content to make offensive speech about things I do believe in. Indeed, some of my stated positions on this board have been quite offensive to some people, and would get me slain in places without speech protections.

Moreover, there is little objective doubt that there was physical contact between the costumed man and the man who took offense. This is called assault. Why you would defend this aggression and side with its apologists is beyond my ken.

If I am ever so offended by someone's speech that I decide to accost them, I fully expect to go to jail or pay some form of restitution, because I will have committed a crime.

--Anthony

_______________________________________________

"In every war, the state enacts a tax of freedom upon the citizenry. The unspoken promise is that the tax shall be revoked at war's end. Endless war holds no such promise. Hence, Eternal War is Eternal Slavery." --Admiral Robert J. Henner


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Monday, February 27, 2012 6:25 AM

PIZMOBEACH

... fully loaded, safety off...


Quote:

Originally posted by AnthonyT:
Why would I make speech regarding something I do not believe? I am content to make offensive speech about things I do believe in. Indeed, some of my stated positions on this board have been quite offensive to some people, and would get me slain in places without speech protections.



I said you probably wouldn't, but others easily might. If you make speech void of any consequences then you will embolden the dullest people to exploit it. We're in the area of simple common sense here, not something that's so black and white. I think what the judge said about the Founders was brilliant. The Free Speech I believe they were talking about was the speech to be contrary to Gov., not to insult and belittle. I don't want to see our courts clogged with morons who think they can say anything and get away with it. I think it's good that the message here is: don't be a fool.

Quote:

Originally posted by AnthonyT:
Moreover, there is little objective doubt that there was physical contact between the costumed man and the man who took offense. This is called assault. Why you would defend this aggression and side with its apologists is beyond my ken.



He pulled on the offensive cardboard sign around his neck held on by a string - that's a bit of a stretch to assault. Ask the muslim if he felt assaulted by the sign.

Quote:

Originally posted by AnthonyT:
If I am ever so offended by someone's speech that I decide to accost them, I fully expect to go to jail or pay some form of restitution, because I will have committed a crime.




It's very likely that this muslim thought the same thing would happen to him as well - guess this was his lucky day, maybe he'll learn from it.

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Monday, February 27, 2012 6:47 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Quote:

The Free Speech I believe they were talking about was the speech to be contrary to Gov., not to insult and belittle.


Hello,

These would be the same people who burned effigies of people they didn't like, and set images of them on nooses, and ridiculed them in publications, and mocked them in artwork and song?

Quote:

He pulled on the offensive cardboard sign around his neck held on by a string - that's a bit of a stretch to assault. Ask the muslim if he felt assaulted by the sign.


You seem to be suggesting I should be allowed to visit protests I find offensive and pull their signs away. I find this a fantastic view of freedom of speech. Incredible, even.

Quote:

It's very likely that this muslim thought the same thing would happen to him as well - guess this was his lucky day, maybe he'll learn from it.


This seems doubtful, since he was vindicated in a court of law and defended not merely by an attorney, but also by the judge. This ruling would be a win for anyone who wants to silence speech offensive to them. They now have a legal precedent defending their assault.

Quote:

I don't want to see our courts clogged with morons who think they can say anything and get away with it.


The courts exist primarily because of moronic behavior. Courts of law are purpose-built to deal with morons who think they can DO anything and get away with it. In this case, they did.

--Anthony







_______________________________________________

"In every war, the state enacts a tax of freedom upon the citizenry. The unspoken promise is that the tax shall be revoked at war's end. Endless war holds no such promise. Hence, Eternal War is Eternal Slavery." --Admiral Robert J. Henner


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Monday, February 27, 2012 7:09 AM

PIZMOBEACH

... fully loaded, safety off...


Quote:

Originally posted by AnthonyT:
Quote:

The Free Speech I believe they were talking about was the speech to be contrary to Gov., not to insult and belittle.


Hello,

These would be the same people who burned effigies of people they didn't like, and set images of them on nooses, and ridiculed them in publications, and mocked them in artwork and song?

Quote:

He pulled on the offensive cardboard sign around his neck held on by a string - that's a bit of a stretch to assault. Ask the muslim if he felt assaulted by the sign.


You seem to be suggesting I should be allowed to visit protests I find offensive and pull their signs away. I find this a fantastic view of freedom of speech. Incredible, even.

Quote:

It's very likely that this muslim thought the same thing would happen to him as well - guess this was his lucky day, maybe he'll learn from it.


This seems doubtful, since he was vindicated in a court of law and defended not merely by an attorney, but also by the judge. This ruling would be a win for anyone who wants to silence speech offensive to them. They now have a legal precedent defending their assault.

Quote:

I don't want to see our courts clogged with morons who think they can say anything and get away with it.


The courts exist primarily because of moronic behavior. Courts of law are purpose-built to deal with morons who think they can DO anything and get away with it. In this case, they did.




That's a beautiful tall horse you have Anthony. You extrapolate to the nth degree to make your case seem stronger but in so doing all you do is make it different:

"You seem to be suggesting I should be allowed to visit protests I find offensive and pull their signs away."

No, I am suggesting that in this case it wasn't a punch or a kick or wrestling, it pulling the offending sign, one that was aimed to illicit that response. Worked!

"The courts exist primarily because of moronic behavior."

Murder, rape, theft at gun point, corporate crime on and on, I don't think you should diminish these by saying they are the acts of morons or in the same league as this case - maybe you are thinking of small claims?

And as usual, someone else has said it better than I did - from a comment on atheist.org below - turns out the judge is not a Muslim (shock, horror! someone made that up to incite viral marketing).

http://atheists.org/blog/2012/02/22/muslim-attacks-atheist-muslim-judg
e-dismisses-case-blames-victim


"Sadly, there is a serious rush to judgment here on the part of American Atheists with respect to this judge. I would hope to see an immediate correction.

First, the judge is apparently not Muslim according to his staff and a writer for the very conservative National Review ( http://bit.ly/xcDjYk) believes the judge did not say he is Muslim. In my view, the vast amount of outrage over this case has not to do with the judgment, per se, but that it was based on religious belief or bias. Although inadvertent, by repeating that here, people assume it to be true.

The defendant was charged with harassment, not assault. Under Pennsylvania law ( http://bit.ly/x2mptH), an assault is committed when a person attempts to cause or intentionally, knowingly or recklessly causes bodily injury to another. Whether this defendant intended to cause bodily injury is unclear to me, but it sounds as if he was trying to stop the person from wearing a costume that he felt defamed his religion, rather than trying to injure him. In any case, he was not charged with assault by the prosecutor, so it seems clear the prosecutor did not consider whatever his actions may have been to constitute assault. The judge is not the prosecutor, so we can put aside any bias of the judge with respect to whether an assault took place, since he was not asked to rule on that.

The Pennsylvania law on harassment ( http://bit.ly/ydCwP3) seems aimed primarily at people repeatedly doing things that would be considered inherently offensive (e.g. stalking). I do not know what this defendant actually did, but harassment may not be an ideal charge in this context.

In dressing as he did, the person wearing the costume was presumably intending to provoke emotions by defaming a religious belief. He has a clear Constitutional right to do so, which I believe the judge acknowledged. I believe part of what the judge was saying was that tolerance toward the religions of others is a good thing. Whether he should have spoken so much about it is an arguable point, but judges often try to calm emotions in their rulings, in my experience.

If you presume the judge is Christian or atheist, and then listen to his comments again, it seems quite possible that the evidence wasn’t there for a conviction on the offense charged, and that the judge was basically trying to encourage all involved to be a little more tolerant.

The rush to judgment with respect to this judge is quite troubling to me. It has a lynch mob feel to it. I would suggest that the American Atheist group ought to amend its assertions and allegations as did the National Review as soon as possible and we all ought to consider that: 1) we were not there to see what happened; 2) we must assume that the prosecutors charged what they considered a valid charge (i.e. not assault); 3) we did not hear the testimony in the case; and 4) we have not heard the entire ruling.

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Monday, February 27, 2012 7:27 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Running up to someone and touching them in any threatening manner is consider "battery" in CA. Allowing one person to do that to another is poor judgment, whether the judge is Xtian, Muslim or Flying Spaghetti Monsterist. It should not be permitted whether the parader/ demonstrator is dressed as Hitler and carrying a swastika, a little old lady carrying a picture of an aborted fetus, or an Occupy demonstrator in chains carrying a picture of Diamon.

The only time that images (or speech) should be restricted are when they incite violence.

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Monday, February 27, 2012 7:27 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Quote:

turns out the judge is not a Muslim (shock, horror! someone made that up to incite viral marketing).



Hello,

You will note, doubtless with some interest, that I do not give a flying fig about the religion of the Judge. None of my arguments or outrage are directed at anything religious. They are directed at someone being allowed to violate another person's freedom of speech, and then being defended by the judge in their action, while the person giving the speech is given a dressing down.

Now, if some legal misstep or technicality is responsible for the ruling, that is unfortunate, but not the fault of the judge. Legal technicalities exist for a reason, to protect someone's rights.

I continue to find it very inappropriate for an official of the law, in his official capacity, to give a person a dressing down for exercising their rights. And I am still thunderstruck that you would find agreement with such a position.

This is not about the height of a horse, nor is it about taking something to an outrageous degree. This is about one man acting within his rights and one man acting outside his rights. This is about chastising the wrong man, and defending the wrong man. And apparently, this is also about justice lost because someone, somewhere, was incompetent to bring it through.

--Anthony

_______________________________________________

"In every war, the state enacts a tax of freedom upon the citizenry. The unspoken promise is that the tax shall be revoked at war's end. Endless war holds no such promise. Hence, Eternal War is Eternal Slavery." --Admiral Robert J. Henner


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Monday, February 27, 2012 7:41 AM

PIZMOBEACH

... fully loaded, safety off...


Quote:

Originally posted by SignyM:
Running up to someone and touching them in any threatening manner is consider "battery" in CA. Allowing one person to do that to another is poor judgment, whether the judge is Xtian, Muslim or Flying Spaghetti Monsterist. It should not be permitted whether the parader/ demonstrator is dressed as Hitler and carrying a swastika, a little old lady carrying a picture of an aborted fetus, or an Occupy demonstrator in chains carrying a picture of Diamon.

The only time that images (or speech) should be restricted are when they incite violence.



From the article: The defendant was charged with harassment, not assault. Under Pennsylvania law ( http://bit.ly/x2mptH), an assault is committed when a person attempts to cause or intentionally, knowingly or recklessly causes bodily injury to another. Whether this defendant intended to cause bodily injury is unclear to me, but it sounds as if he was trying to stop the person from wearing a costume that he felt defamed his religion, rather than trying to injure him.

So not "off" scot free.

Do you find any significance that this is coming up now, when it supposedly happened last Halloween? Feels like Free Speech Advocates/Zealots are being used by the Christian Right.

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Monday, February 27, 2012 7:47 AM

PIZMOBEACH

... fully loaded, safety off...


Quote:

Originally posted by AnthonyT:
Quote:

turns out the judge is not a Muslim (shock, horror! someone made that up to incite viral marketing).



Hello,

You will note, doubtless with some interest, that I do not give a flying fig about the religion of the Judge. None of my arguments or outrage are directed at anything religious. They are directed at someone being allowed to violate another person's freedom of speech, and then being defended by the judge in their action, while the person giving the speech is given a dressing down.

Now, if some legal misstep or technicality is responsible for the ruling, that is unfortunate, but not the fault of the judge. Legal technicalities exist for a reason, to protect someone's rights.

I continue to find it very inappropriate for an official of the law, in his official capacity, to give a person a dressing down for exercising their rights. And I am still thunderstruck that you would find agreement with such a position.

This is not about the height of a horse, nor is it about taking something to an outrageous degree. This is about one man acting within his rights and one man acting outside his rights. This is about chastising the wrong man, and defending the wrong man. And apparently, this is also about justice lost because someone, somewhere, was incompetent to bring it through.




I really think you're being played.
You should care about the reporting Anthony, that if "muslim" was added that there might be other biases/lies added to get you to think a certain way about this case (as you have), it should tell you something about the intentions of this source and whether they should be trusted.

Turns out the defendant was charged. I found "doofus" to be completely accurate, more like a concerned father talking to his son who should know better, disappointment tinged with light humor.

I asked SignyM, same for you: don't you find it curious that this story is making the rounds now? I doubt that's an accident.



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Monday, February 27, 2012 7:47 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Quote:

Free Speech Advocates/Zealots


Hello,

Zealots, eh?

We Zealots defend Free Speech always, even when it is unpopular or may aid an unpopular group. Even if it is a group we despise.

--Anthony

_______________________________________________

"In every war, the state enacts a tax of freedom upon the citizenry. The unspoken promise is that the tax shall be revoked at war's end. Endless war holds no such promise. Hence, Eternal War is Eternal Slavery." --Admiral Robert J. Henner


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Monday, February 27, 2012 7:51 AM

PIZMOBEACH

... fully loaded, safety off...


Quote:

Originally posted by AnthonyT:
Quote:

Free Speech Advocates/Zealots


Hello,

Zealots, eh?

We Zealots defend Free Speech always, even when it is unpopular or may aid an unpopular group. Even if it is a group we despise.





Yes, to me a Zealot is someone who defends free speech when they have the facts wrong, like in this case. When they can't entertain the idea of thinking beyond black and white - the world has a multitude of gray shades.

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Monday, February 27, 2012 7:57 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Quote:

Originally posted by pizmobeach:
Quote:

Originally posted by AnthonyT:
Quote:

Free Speech Advocates/Zealots


Hello,

Zealots, eh?

We Zealots defend Free Speech always, even when it is unpopular or may aid an unpopular group. Even if it is a group we despise.





Yes, to me a Zealot is someone who defends free speech when they have the facts wrong, like in this case. When they can't entertain the idea of thinking beyond black and white - the world has a multitude of gray shades.

Scifi movie music + Firefly dialogue clips, 24 hours a day - http://www.scifiradio.com




Quote:

Yes, to me a Zealot is someone who defends free speech when they have the facts wrong




Hello,

I do apologize for getting the facts of the case wrong, (apparently in regards to someone choosing the wrong charge for the crime that occurred) but the defense of Free Speech is itself correct and untarnished. Nothing I said in defense of Free Speech or this Speaker is incorrect. Nothing I said in condemnation of the man who would accost the Speaker is incorrect. And I still stand by dismay that an administrator of the law would lecture a victim whose rights were violated.

--Anthony

_______________________________________________

"In every war, the state enacts a tax of freedom upon the citizenry. The unspoken promise is that the tax shall be revoked at war's end. Endless war holds no such promise. Hence, Eternal War is Eternal Slavery." --Admiral Robert J. Henner


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Monday, February 27, 2012 8:00 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


PIZMO, I realize that definitions of "harassment", "assault" and "battery" vary from state to state. I personally like the CA definition better, but I realize that one cannot apply CA law in PA! But TOUCHING anyone in a threatening or unwelcome manner in ANY state should be a punishable crime. After disallowing a video of the event from evidence (why?) the judge decided that there wasn't enough evidence to proceed with the charge. Weren't there witnesses? Didn't the arresting sheriff make a statement? Didn't the alleged attacker admit at the scene as to what he had done? Seems like evidence was dismissed out of hand. And then the judge lectured the victim? On what grounds? That lecture virtually admits to an altercation in order to excuse it. The weigh scales of justice seemed to have a very heavy thumb on one side. Also, what the judge said:

Quote:

"Here in our society, we have a Constitution that gives us many rights, specifically First Amendment rights. It’s unfortunate that some people use the First Amendment to deliberately provoke others. I don’t think that’s what our forefathers intended. I think our forefathers intended to use the First Amendment so we can speak with our mind, not to p— off other people and cultures – which is what you did."
The first amendment was used by our FF to protect the rights of the colonists to piss off the British.

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Monday, February 27, 2012 9:50 AM

PIZMOBEACH

... fully loaded, safety off...


Quote:

Originally posted by AnthonyT:
Quote:

Originally posted by pizmobeach:
Quote:

Originally posted by AnthonyT:
Quote:

Free Speech Advocates/Zealots


Hello,

Zealots, eh?

We Zealots defend Free Speech always, even when it is unpopular or may aid an unpopular group. Even if it is a group we despise.





Yes, to me a Zealot is someone who defends free speech when they have the facts wrong, like in this case. When they can't entertain the idea of thinking beyond black and white - the world has a multitude of gray shades.

Scifi movie music + Firefly dialogue clips, 24 hours a day - http://www.scifiradio.com]


Quote:

Yes, to me a Zealot is someone who defends free speech when they have the facts wrong




Hello,

I do apologize for getting the facts of the case wrong, (apparently in regards to someone choosing the wrong charge for the crime that occurred) but the defense of Free Speech is itself correct and untarnished. Nothing I said in defense of Free Speech or this Speaker is incorrect. Nothing I said in condemnation of the man who would accost the Speaker is incorrect. And I still stand by dismay that an administrator of the law would lecture a victim whose rights were violated.




I think there's free speech and then there's Free Speech, it's not one size fits all. If this was a Gov trying to stifle anti-government opinion/text then I'd share the level of concern that you have. This is on the other end of the spectrum, I think it's wrong to lump them together.

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Monday, February 27, 2012 10:05 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


This concept of free speech has been decided many times over to protect things like parody and (yes) even offensive speech. There are a few limitations on free speech: defamation or libel, causing harm (yelling "fire!" in a crowded theater), hate speech, or (alas) violating copyrights. Everything else is Free Speech.

Muslims need to realize that the entire USA is a free speech zone, and the judge needs to be reviewed because he seems not to understand where he lives and whose law he is interpreting. Also, he overstepped his bounds when he tossed out evidence willy-nilly without (as far as I can tell) good reason. There were witnesses and police statements which were ignored.

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Monday, February 27, 2012 10:06 AM

PIZMOBEACH

... fully loaded, safety off...


Quote:

Originally posted by SignyM:
PIZMO, I realize that definitions of "harassment", "assault" and "battery" vary from state to state. I personally like the CA definition better, but I realize that one cannot apply CA law in PA! But TOUCHING anyone in a threatening or unwelcome manner in ANY state should be a punishable crime. After disallowing a video of the event from evidence (why?) the judge decided that there wasn't enough evidence to proceed with the charge. Weren't there witnesses? Didn't the arresting sheriff make a statement? Didn't the alleged attacker admit at the scene as to what he had done? Seems like evidence was dismissed out of hand. And then the judge lectured the victim? On what grounds? That lecture virtually admits to an altercation in order to excuse it. The weigh scales of justice seemed to have a very heavy thumb on one side. Also, what the judge said:

Quote:

"Here in our society, we have a Constitution that gives us many rights, specifically First Amendment rights. It’s unfortunate that some people use the First Amendment to deliberately provoke others. I don’t think that’s what our forefathers intended. I think our forefathers intended to use the First Amendment so we can speak with our mind, not to p— off other people and cultures – which is what you did."
The first amendment was used by our FF to protect the rights of the colonists to piss off the British.



That time is passed then, right?

If you watch the video I think you'll see there's nothing there, not anything to prosecute someone with:



There's voice over (which could be added), there's no image of a guy choking or even touching the filmmaker - pretty flimsy, if anything wouldn't it make you suspicious of the atheist? I think the judge thought the atheist was trying to incite unrest and conflict and he was pretty perturbed by that, so much so that he called him a doofus.

This would have been great - if the muslim guy had instead dressed like George Washington with a machine gun and he had his muslim friends dressed like babies in American flags, and he was mock shooting them and laughing and saying how the Muslim Revolution was coming, "I am Muhammed Washington, here to slaughter your babies!" Would anyone be surprised if the crowd would have done something about that? Sometimes you have to protect people from their idiot selves.

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Monday, February 27, 2012 10:06 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Quote:



I think there's free speech and then there's Free Speech, it's not one size fits all. If this was a Gov trying to stifle anti-government opinion/text then I'd share the level of concern that you have. This is on the other end of the spectrum, I think it's wrong to lump them together.

Scifi movie music + Firefly dialogue clips, 24 hours a day - http://www.scifiradio.com




Hello,

I understand your position, and you have the right to it, but I disagree. I do not limit free speech to anti-government speech. I believe the protections are far broader, and indeed that they must be. I believe such protections, broad and wide, are essential to the maintenance of a free society. While it is a bitter brew to swallow to hear someone say, or watch someone depict a hateful, hurtful thing- I believe that all speech is safe only when the worst speech is protected. The exceptions I make to this rule of thumb are strikingly narrow, limited to direct and plausible threats of harm.

If in my zealotry, I offend, please forgive me. I shall similarly strive to forgive those whose zeal is so tepid and tame that they would erode what I consider a vital tenet of freedom. I do not believe the position to be borne of evil, though it startled me to hear it.

--Anthony

_______________________________________________

"In every war, the state enacts a tax of freedom upon the citizenry. The unspoken promise is that the tax shall be revoked at war's end. Endless war holds no such promise. Hence, Eternal War is Eternal Slavery." --Admiral Robert J. Henner


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Monday, February 27, 2012 10:11 AM

CAVETROLL


1) Muslim judge in a case involving depiction of Mohammed. Instant grounds for recusing himself or facing charges of judicial misconduct.

Here's an overview; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judicial_disqualification

2) Clear cut assault. But let's call it harassment.

3) The complaintant has had his first amendment rights violated by the original assaulter, and now by the judge.

4) The public will wind up footing the bill when the lawsuit comes. I can only hope the judge is named as a defendant in the case as well, so he can feel the pain in the wallet along with the public. Because the public clearly has no leg to stand on.

I'd be willing to be the lawyers are already lining up. I wonder where the ACLU is?

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Monday, February 27, 2012 10:13 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

That time is passed then, right?
NO, that time is still here. It is enshrined in our constitution.
Quote:

If you watch the video I think you'll see there's nothing there, not anything to prosecute someone with
There is more than just the video. There is also the statement by the victim and by the police officer who SAID that the alleged perp admitted on the spot that he grabbed the victim. And the street was lined with witnesses who surely could have been interviewed. Seems like the judge went out of his way to dismiss the case... unfairly, according to all of the facts that I've read.

Possibly the judge wanted to avoid a backlash. In other words, his decision might have been based on fear.

-----------------

HERE is how you handle a demonstration you don't like: You get the peeps who agree with you to hold a counter-demonstration. For instance, there was a planned Nazi demonstration in my hometown of Buffalo. Police were gathered to protect the demonstrators, nerves were on edge. When it came time, there were about five Nazi demonstrators and about 200 counter-demonstrators. They managed not to beat each other up, but the point was made.

In a civilized society, we use words, not fists. Best stick with that.

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Monday, February 27, 2012 10:26 AM

PIZMOBEACH

... fully loaded, safety off...


Quote:

Originally posted by AnthonyT:


Hello,

I understand your position, and you have the right to it, but I disagree. I do not limit free speech to anti-government speech. I believe the protections are far broader, and indeed that they must be. I believe such protections, broad and wide, are essential to the maintenance of a free society. While it is a bitter brew to swallow to hear someone say, or watch someone depict a hateful, hurtful thing- I believe that all speech is safe only when the worst speech is protected. The exceptions I make to this rule of thumb are strikingly narrow, limited to direct and plausible threats of harm.

If in my zealotry, I offend, please forgive me. I shall similarly strive to forgive those whose zeal is so tepid and tame that they would erode what I consider a vital tenet of freedom. I do not believe the position to be borne of evil, though it startled me to hear it.




I think your sense of proportion is way out of whack. My "zeal" is measured in accordance with the issue, I don't always go from 0 to 11 for every little bump. And I will forgive intelligent people when they over react and try to cover it up with pretty, lofty words.

I don't limit free speech to government abuse either, just used as one example.

"The exceptions I make to this rule of thumb are strikingly narrow, limited to direct and plausible threats of harm."
You don't believe this Zombie action had a chance to lead to harm? Given the Muhammed cartoon nonsense?

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