REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

Yet more fraud from the AGW crowd.

POSTED BY: AURAPTOR
UPDATED: Thursday, March 1, 2012 07:28
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Tuesday, February 21, 2012 8:52 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Peter Gleick Admits to Deception in Obtaining Heartland Climate Files


By ANDREW C. REVKIN

Peter H. Gleick, a water and climate analyst who has been studying aspects of global warming for more than two decades, in recent years became an aggressive critic of organizations and individuals casting doubt on the seriousness of greenhouse-driven climate change. He used blogs, congressional testimony, group letters and other means to make his case.

Now, Gleick has admitted to an act that leaves his reputation in ruins and threatens to undercut the cause he spent so much time pursuing. His summary, just published on his blog at Huffington Post, speaks for itself. You can read his short statement below with a couple of thoughts from me:


The Origin of the Heartland Documents

Peter Gleick

Since the release in mid-February of a series of documents related to the internal strategy of the Heartland Institute to cast doubt on climate science, there has been extensive speculation about the origin of the documents and intense discussion about what they reveal. Given the need for reliance on facts in the public climate debate, I am issuing the following statement.

At the beginning of 2012, I received an anonymous document in the mail describing what appeared to be details of the Heartland Institute’s climate program strategy. It contained information about their funders and the Institute’s apparent efforts to muddy public understanding about climate science and policy. I do not know the source of that original document but assumed it was sent to me because of my past exchanges with Heartland and because I was named in it.

Given the potential impact however, I attempted to confirm the accuracy of the information in this document. In an effort to do so, and in a serious lapse of my own and professional judgment and ethics, I solicited and received additional materials directly from the Heartland Institute under someone else’s name. The materials the Heartland Institute sent to me confirmed many of the facts in the original document, including especially their 2012 fundraising strategy and budget. I forwarded, anonymously, the documents I had received to a set of journalists and experts working on climate issues. I can explicitly confirm, as can the Heartland Institute, that the documents they emailed to me are identical to the documents that have been made public. I made no changes or alterations of any kind to any of the Heartland Institute documents or to the original anonymous communication.

I will not comment on the substance or implications of the materials; others have and are doing so. I only note that the scientific understanding of the reality and risks of climate change is strong, compelling, and increasingly disturbing, and a rational public debate is desperately needed. My judgment was blinded by my frustration with the ongoing efforts — often anonymous, well-funded, and coordinated — to attack climate science and scientists and prevent this debate, and by the lack of transparency of the organizations involved. Nevertheless I deeply regret my own actions in this case. I offer my personal apologies to all those affected.


The Heartland Institute had already signaled that it plans to seek charges and civil action against the person who extracted its documents under a false identity. Foreshadowing today’s events, on Friday, Ross Kaminsky, a senior fellow and former board member at Heartland, posted a piece on the American Spectator site naming Gleick as an “obvious suspect.” Now they have their man.

I won’t speculate on how the legal aspects of this story might play out.

Another question, of course, is who wrote the climate strategy document that Gleick now says was mailed to him. His admitted acts of deception in acquiring the cache of authentic Heartland documents surely will sustain suspicion that he created the summary, which Heartland’s leadership insists is fake.

One way or the other, Gleick’s use of deception in pursuit of his cause after years of calling out climate deception has destroyed his credibility and harmed others. (Some of the released documents contain information about Heartland employees that has no bearing on the climate fight.) That is his personal tragedy and shame (and I’m sure devastating for his colleagues, friends and family).

The broader tragedy is that his decision to go to such extremes in his fight with Heartland has greatly set back any prospects of the country having the “rational public debate” that he wrote — correctly — is so desperately needed.

http://dotearth.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/02/20/peter-gleick-admits-to-de
ception-in-obtaining-heartland-climate-files
/


" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Tuesday, February 21, 2012 10:15 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


bump

Love the conflicting versions of this. One side says the papers were stolen, and tampered with, while the other says they 'anonymously' showed up.

This should be fun.


" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Tuesday, February 21, 2012 7:21 PM

OONJERAH



I never heard of these people (Heartland Institute, Peter Gleick) and don't know the scope of their influence.
I suspect they can have little impact on the opinions of climate scientists worldwide.
A tempest in a teacup, no?


"All I suggest is a man hears what he wants to hear, and disregards the rest" ~Paul Simon

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Wednesday, February 22, 2012 8:09 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by Oonjerah:


A tempest in a teacup, no?


"All I suggest is a man hears what he wants to hear, and disregards the rest" ~Paul Simon



Very well could be. The thing that interests me here, is that on the one side, you have groups who, if we're to believe them, will usher in massive new taxes and unbelievable redistribution of wealth, and for what ? Absolutely no significant , measurable benefit to the cause they're allegedly so concerned about, saving the planet. Of course, the other side is falsely accused of wanting to poison the water and pollute the air, which only inflames this argument between the different camps in the scientific community.


" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Wednesday, February 22, 2012 8:32 AM

KPO

"Love is natural and real. But not for you my love. Not tonight my love..."


This is a development of the story Magonsdaughter first posted about, a right-wing US think-tank paying scientists (amongst others) to oppose climate change: http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.asp?b=18&t=51032

So the guy who leaked the documents has got caught. But it still seems to me he performed a public service.

It's not personal. It's just war.

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Wednesday, February 22, 2012 8:36 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by kpo:

So the guy who leaked the documents has got caught. But it still seems to me he performed a public service.




And yet those who hacked and exposed the e-mails from E.Anglia University weren't performing a public service ?

Wow.

I'm pretty sure the scientist weren't being paid TO counter global warming. They were merely paid for doing good science.

" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Wednesday, February 22, 2012 8:41 AM

KPO

"Love is natural and real. But not for you my love. Not tonight my love..."


Oh and auraptor:

Quote:

you have groups who, if we're to believe them, will usher in massive new taxes and unbelievable redistribution of wealth, and for what ? Absolutely no significant , measurable benefit to the cause they're allegedly so concerned about, saving the planet.


Sure, sure - it's all just a Marxist conspiracy to expand government and redistrubute wealth. Your buttons are so easily pressed, Au. You're a right-wing think-tank's dream.

It's not personal. It's just war.

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Wednesday, February 22, 2012 8:45 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by kpo:
Oh and auraptor:

Quote:

you have groups who, if we're to believe them, will usher in massive new taxes and unbelievable redistribution of wealth, and for what ? Absolutely no significant , measurable benefit to the cause they're allegedly so concerned about, saving the planet.


Sure, sure - it's all just a Marxist conspiracy to expand government and redistrubute wealth. Your buttons are so easily pressed, Au. You're a right-wing think-tank's dream.

It's not personal. It's just war.



And when Hugo Chavez comes right out and says that's exactly what this is all about, is HE a right-wing think-tank's dream as well ?

The only reason that this is no longer a 'conspiracy' is that the eco-socialists aren't even trying to hide it anymore.


" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Wednesday, February 22, 2012 8:48 AM

KPO

"Love is natural and real. But not for you my love. Not tonight my love..."


Quote:

And yet those who hacked and exposed the e-mails from E.Anglia University weren't performing a public service ?

Wow.


Can you quote me saying that, or did you imagine it?

Quote:

I'm pretty sure the scientist weren't being paid TO counter global warming. They were merely paid for doing good science.


Haha, this is what happens when right-wing money pays for ACTUAL SCIENCE, and not just propaganda:
http://www.csmonitor.com/Environment/2011/1021/Climate-study-funded-in
-part-by-conservative-group-confirms-global-warming


It's not personal. It's just war.

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Wednesday, February 22, 2012 8:52 AM

KPO

"Love is natural and real. But not for you my love. Not tonight my love..."


Quote:

And when Hugo Chavez comes right out and says

Oh, Hugo Chavez let it slip did he? Well then of course it must be true. Hugo Chavez is famous for always talking sense: http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2011/12/30/hugo-ch-vez-claims-u-
s-gives-leaders-cancer-and-more-crazy-quotes.html


It's not personal. It's just war.

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Wednesday, February 22, 2012 9:03 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by kpo:
Quote:

And yet those who hacked and exposed the e-mails from E.Anglia University weren't performing a public service ?

Wow.


Can you quote me saying that, or did you imagine it?



A logical extension of your original comment, by condoning 1 act, yet ignoring another.

And yeah, Hugo said it. Even a busted clock is right, sometimes. It appears he was so crazy, he's let one truth slip out, amongst a bevy of bravado.
Funny, that.


" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Wednesday, February 22, 2012 9:06 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Hello,

When Mr. Raptor posted this thread (and then bumped it when he got no responses) I sat back and wondered what his real interest in the subject matter was. I wondered, "How does this support his positions and enable additional propaganda against his enemies?" The lack of responses made the answer slow in coming. It took him nearly 24 hours to spring the actual message and point of the thread.

--Anthony

_______________________________________________

"In every war, the state enacts a tax of freedom upon the citizenry. The unspoken promise is that the tax shall be revoked at war's end. Endless war holds no such promise. Hence, Eternal War is Eternal Slavery." --Admiral Robert J. Henner


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Wednesday, February 22, 2012 9:14 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Yes, everything is a liberal/ commie conspiracy to take away the wealth of the rich. Either that, or a radical Muslim conspiracy to take over the world. Rappy would be in right-wing bliss... I do not think he could survive the pulsing electrical currents in his brain.... if he could somehow get those two conspiracies to coalesce in his mind. Then, it would ALL make sense!

Then he could go on about the librul-muslim-colored-conspiracy, just like Pirate talks about the jewish-nazi-british-knights-templar conspiracy, and we could have a duo!

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Wednesday, February 22, 2012 9:22 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Anthony.

I've said from the start that I'm a skeptic of the global warming fraud. Not only in the science, but in the cast of usual suspects who have rushed in, aiming to make a big bucks off the prospect of 'saving' the planet for / from humanity.

But as for this particular issue, I was curious as to the details, and what implications, if any , may result from it.

ETA - So Sig, when MANY Muslims, flatly state that yes, they want and intend to take over the world, taking them at THEIR OWN WORDS is being foolish ?

Really?


" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Wednesday, February 22, 2012 9:29 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Umm... rappy, I will be polite this time and talk to you instead of about you.

OF COURSE they say they want to take over the world!

So????

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Wednesday, February 22, 2012 10:08 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by SignyM:
Umm... rappy, I will be polite this time and talk to you instead of about you.

OF COURSE they say they want to take over the world!

So????



( I appreciate the sidebar into the zone of civility. May it not be the last time we meet here.)

"So ? "

2 things I want to say here, as we veer off topic -

1. When Islamic leaders boldly assert.. " We do believe as Muslims that the east and the west will one day be governed by the Sharia. Indeed we believe that one day the flag of Islam will fly over the White House " , that should give pause to not just every American, but any human being on the planet who values religious freedom. Or, in my case, freedom of NO religion.

2. Jesus gave his followers a great commission, to spread the word, to all men, across the world. The obvious goal, to convert followers to HIS word. Now, history has clearly shown that a large number of those spreading the word, did so with a sword or a gun, and not by peaceful 'testifying'. However, in MY life time, and in the recent modern history of the United States, rare is it that Christians have engaged in the sort of violence and aggression that can be found, routinely across the globe, by Muslims. Note that I didn't claim that NO Christians engage in such evil acts or brutish behavior, but there simply is NO comparison. 1 violent act by a Christian does not equate to a 100 similar acts by Muslims.

From my perspective, Christians and Muslims, more than any other religion, try to go out and either expand their followers, (conversion ) or intimidate , drive out those who believe something else. And as wacky as some Christian can be, by in large, one isn't likely to come home and find their family beheaded because they didn't read from the same religious book as their neighbors.




" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Wednesday, February 22, 2012 10:11 AM

KPO

"Love is natural and real. But not for you my love. Not tonight my love..."


Quote:

A logical extension of your original comment, by condoning 1 act, yet ignoring another.

2 completely separate acts, I'm not allowed to comment on one without commenting on the other? That's Rap-logic.

It's not personal. It's just war.

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Wednesday, February 22, 2012 10:21 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:
Quote:

Originally posted by SignyM:
Umm... rappy, I will be polite this time and talk to you instead of about you.

OF COURSE they say they want to take over the world!

So????



( I appreciate the sidebar into the zone of civility. May it not be the last time we meet here.)

"So ? "

2 things I want to say here, as we veer off topic -

1. When Islamic leaders boldly assert.. " We do believe as Muslims that the east and the west will one day be governed by the Sharia. Indeed we believe that one day the flag of Islam will fly over the White House " , that should give pause to not just every American, but any human being on the planet who values religious freedom. Or, in my case, freedom of NO religion.

2. Jesus gave his followers a great commission, to spread the word, to all men, across the world. The obvious goal, to convert followers to HIS word. Now, history has clearly shown that a large number of those spreading the word, did so with a sword or a gun, and not by peaceful 'testifying'. However, in MY life time, and in the recent modern history of the United States, rare is it that Christians have engaged in the sort of violence and aggression that can be found, routinely across the globe, by Muslims. Note that I didn't claim that NO Christians engage in such evil acts or brutish behavior, but there simply is NO comparison. 1 violent act by a Christian does not equate to a 100 similar acts by Muslims.

From my perspective, Christians and Muslims, more than any other religion, try to go out and either expand their followers, (conversion ) or intimidate , drive out those who believe something else. And as wacky as some Christian can be, by in large, one isn't likely to come home and find their family beheaded because they didn't read from the same religious book as their neighbors.




" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "





Hello,

Our secular/Christian nation (pick one of your choice) has done more harm to Muslim nations than they have done to us. Moreover, we have a greater capacity to harm them than they do to harm us. Even More over, Conservative Christian values have asserted themselves more forcefully on our politics than the values of any other religious group.

Which leaves me to echo in paraphrase the former poster's "So what?" in regards to the great Islamic threat. Islam is not only a small concern, but it is at the bottom of a long list of small concerns that are at the bottom of a long list of serious concerns.

--Anthony

_______________________________________________

"In every war, the state enacts a tax of freedom upon the citizenry. The unspoken promise is that the tax shall be revoked at war's end. Endless war holds no such promise. Hence, Eternal War is Eternal Slavery." --Admiral Robert J. Henner


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Wednesday, February 22, 2012 10:36 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!



Anthony - as we're getting far off topic from the original intent of this thread, I'll simply post this...






" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Wednesday, February 22, 2012 10:40 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Hello,

Would you care to use words to summarize your multimedia presentation?

--Anthony

_______________________________________________

"In every war, the state enacts a tax of freedom upon the citizenry. The unspoken promise is that the tax shall be revoked at war's end. Endless war holds no such promise. Hence, Eternal War is Eternal Slavery." --Admiral Robert J. Henner


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Wednesday, February 22, 2012 10:47 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by AnthonyT:
Hello,

Would you care to use words to summarize your multimedia presentation?

--Anthony



Rep Allen West explains who it is we're fighting, by giving example after example of Muslims in direct conflict with the West, for some 1,300 years.

To sum up - This stuff ain't new.


" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Wednesday, February 22, 2012 11:13 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:
Quote:

Originally posted by AnthonyT:
Hello,

Would you care to use words to summarize your multimedia presentation?

--Anthony



Rep Allen West explains who it is we're fighting, by giving example after example of Muslims in direct conflict with the West, for some 1,300 years.

To sum up - This stuff ain't new.


" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "



Hello,

I find it humorous that you would presume to explain to a man of Spanish ancestry about the horrible Islamic threat.

I know how long it's been around, and I know exactly how seriously to take it.

--Anthony



_______________________________________________

"In every war, the state enacts a tax of freedom upon the citizenry. The unspoken promise is that the tax shall be revoked at war's end. Endless war holds no such promise. Hence, Eternal War is Eternal Slavery." --Admiral Robert J. Henner


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Wednesday, February 22, 2012 12:23 PM

OONJERAH



Given the national budget to play with, I'd sure want to spend more money on cleaning up the planet
than on making it dirtier, as the current budget does.
Is anyone here opposed to cleaner air and tuna without mercury?

Quote Auraptor: "I've said from the start that I'm a skeptic of the global warming fraud. Not only in the science,
but in the cast of usual suspects who have rushed in, aiming to make a big bucks off the prospect of 'saving' the
planet for / from humanity."


I've not seen anyone else mention it, so here:
"the global warming fraud" has been around since the 50's or earlier when it was pushed by conservationists
and geologists (to the best of my recollection).
The usual suspects didn't rush in to milk it until about the Clinton era.


"All I suggest is a man hears what he wants to hear, and disregards the rest" ~Paul Simon

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Wednesday, February 22, 2012 6:55 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:
Quote:

Originally posted by kpo:

So the guy who leaked the documents has got caught. But it still seems to me he performed a public service.




And yet those who hacked and exposed the e-mails from E.Anglia University weren't performing a public service ?

Wow.




Can you show us any cites where anyone here - other than you, of course - has claimed that those hacked e-mails weren't a public service?

"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill

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Wednesday, February 22, 2012 7:01 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:
Quote:

Originally posted by kpo:
Oh and auraptor:

Quote:

you have groups who, if we're to believe them, will usher in massive new taxes and unbelievable redistribution of wealth, and for what ? Absolutely no significant , measurable benefit to the cause they're allegedly so concerned about, saving the planet.


Sure, sure - it's all just a Marxist conspiracy to expand government and redistrubute wealth. Your buttons are so easily pressed, Au. You're a right-wing think-tank's dream.

It's not personal. It's just war.



And when Hugo Chavez comes right out and says that's exactly what this is all about, is HE a right-wing think-tank's dream as well ?




I would strongly agree that if Hugo Chavez did indeed come right out and say that's exactly what this is all about, that WOULD be a right-wing think-tank's dream. It would be like Christmas, Easter, and every birthday all rolled into one, and they'd be sure to fund-raise off such a statement for years and years.

Of course, the real mistake in your assertion is the idea that there are such things as "right-wing think-tanks". There is no thinking allowed on the right. It's like the rules of the road: If you're slow, keep right.

"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill

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Wednesday, February 22, 2012 8:02 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Anthony

Then why the hell did you even ask in the 1st place?

That's what the video shows. Which is why I put it up to begin with... DUH!




" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Wednesday, February 22, 2012 9:24 PM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:
Anthony

Then why the hell did you even ask in the 1st place?

That's what the video shows. Which is why I put it up to begin with... DUH!




" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "



Hello,

You put up the video in response to me. I asked what was in it. What was in it was described to be a pointless history lesson extolling the dangers of Islam.

And then I reminded you that people of my ancestry have a fair understanding of historical Islam.

To quote you, "DUH!"

Next you'll regale an Englishman with educational videos about the Saxons.

ETA: The point, in case you missed it, is that your argument is weak, and you can't boogeyman Islam to someone whose ancestors fought a war of independence against Islam. I know better than you, and I know the difference between Medieval Times and the 21st century.

--Anthony


_______________________________________________

"In every war, the state enacts a tax of freedom upon the citizenry. The unspoken promise is that the tax shall be revoked at war's end. Endless war holds no such promise. Hence, Eternal War is Eternal Slavery." --Admiral Robert J. Henner


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Thursday, February 23, 2012 4:07 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Anthony

Sig and I were attempting to have a civil dialogue ( apparently hell does freeze over, from time to time,) and you chimed in.

Quote:

Which leaves me to echo in paraphrase the former poster's "So what?" in regards to the great Islamic threat. Islam is not only a small concern, but it is at the bottom of a long list of small concerns that are at the bottom of a long list of serious concerns.


I had already responded to the question of " so what ", and to further expand on my point, I presented Lt Col / Rep. Allen West's remarks. Whether you agree with it or not, others DO see radical Islam as a serious, legitimate threat.

I'm not 'lecturing' you about any damn thing. Just pointing out that others, not just me, see this as an issue. I really could care less if you agree with them or not, that is NOT the point.

Apparently, you can't or won't watch the video, so I tell you what's in it. Then you get all offended and preachy about the contents, by bringing up an entirely different issue.

Quote:


I find it humorous that you would presume to explain to a man of Spanish ancestry about the horrible Islamic threat.



Then you're laughing alone. I'm not presuming anything. It is completely irrelevant that you're of Spanish ancestry, as that has no bearing on the discussion at hand.

Follow the thread. You're veering way off course here.



" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Thursday, February 23, 2012 4:26 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Hello Mr. Raptor,

Having now watched the video (being in a location to do so) I can comment more fully on its contents... which consists entirely of a man reciting a series of dates, locations, and famous people who fought Islamic persons- with little other information.

The speaker attempts to use these historical moments to frighten the audience in a 'they've had to be fought before, this shows their danger, do not forget the lessons of history' rallying cry to inspire his audience with fear against the Islamic menace.

There has never been any question that others feel as you do about the threat of Islam. However none of this actually illustrates Islam as a clear and present danger.

While I would agree that radicalism is a danger, I find this danger ever-present, and present at home in ever-increasing numbers absent the religious component of Islam.

Yours (or a Colonel's) remembrances of ancient wars against ancient kingdoms does nothing to mitigate, change, or enhance the current reality. Neither you or the video has illustrated why Islam is a particularly urgent concern, and so the "So What" of topic remains untarnished. Your only response has been, "Look, a Colonel" and "Look, a history of conflict."

Quote:

I really could care less if you agree with them or not, that is NOT the point.


Well, I don't agree. And it is my point.

Xenophobia is a tool of radicalism. Not a tool against it. My fight against radicalism begins by speaking loudly against those of you who would beat the drum of war and paranoia.

--Anthony






_______________________________________________

"In every war, the state enacts a tax of freedom upon the citizenry. The unspoken promise is that the tax shall be revoked at war's end. Endless war holds no such promise. Hence, Eternal War is Eternal Slavery." --Admiral Robert J. Henner


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Thursday, February 23, 2012 4:29 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!



It's not xenophobia.

" For it is the doom of men that they forget " - Merlin.

But continue to keep barking up the wrong tree, Anthony.


" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Thursday, February 23, 2012 4:36 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:

It's not xenophobia.

" For it is the doom of men that they forget " - Merlin.

But continue to keep barking up the wrong tree, Anthony.


" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "



Hello,

It IS the doom to forget.

To forget the men standing at the pulpits, preaching about the 'other.' The dangerous other, the one that must be opposed. Gather round and listen, hear their threat. Hear their plans. They move in secret circles and secret ways. They plot and scheme. And for what? To come for you, brother.

They are jealous of you, for what you have. They are angry at you, for what they don't. They despise your way of life, and they have a mandate to end it. Their army is gathering, brother. What of ours? Are we prepared? Nay, we shall die, murdered in the night, never having acknowledged the threat.

I say awake! Awake to this danger! Rally your forces. Be vigilant. Do not be blinded, do not be persuaded to sleep again. Join me and oppose them. Fight for yourselves. Fight for your families. Fight for your Freedoms!

I remember. I remember it well.

It's all the mouth of Sauron.

--Anthony



_______________________________________________

"In every war, the state enacts a tax of freedom upon the citizenry. The unspoken promise is that the tax shall be revoked at war's end. Endless war holds no such promise. Hence, Eternal War is Eternal Slavery." --Admiral Robert J. Henner


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Thursday, February 23, 2012 5:23 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!



Open war is upon you whether you would risk it or not. - Aragorn.




" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Thursday, February 23, 2012 5:57 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Hello,

When war is upon you it needs no advocate and no herald.

It is those who call for war who need their intercessors of fear and hate. To feed the ire of a nation, they serve up propaganda on a plate.

--Anthony

_______________________________________________

"In every war, the state enacts a tax of freedom upon the citizenry. The unspoken promise is that the tax shall be revoked at war's end. Endless war holds no such promise. Hence, Eternal War is Eternal Slavery." --Admiral Robert J. Henner


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Thursday, February 23, 2012 6:09 AM

STORYMARK


Ah, so this has turned into another of Rap's "fear the Muslims" thread.

Boring.

"Goram it kid, let's frak this thing and go home! Engage!"

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Thursday, February 23, 2012 6:16 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Quote:

Originally posted by Storymark:
Ah, so this has turned into another of Rap's "fear the Muslims" thread.

Boring.

"Goram it kid, let's frak this thing and go home! Engage!"



Hello,

Raptor's fear and hatred of the Muslims is actually off-topic.

His much more engaging initial purpose was to say things like this:

Quote:

The thing that interests me here, is that on the one side, you have groups who, if we're to believe them, will usher in massive new taxes and unbelievable redistribution of wealth, and for what ? Absolutely no significant , measurable benefit to the cause they're allegedly so concerned about, saving the planet. Of course, the other side is falsely accused of wanting to poison the water and pollute the air, which only inflames this argument between the different camps in the scientific community.


--Anthony

_______________________________________________

"In every war, the state enacts a tax of freedom upon the citizenry. The unspoken promise is that the tax shall be revoked at war's end. Endless war holds no such promise. Hence, Eternal War is Eternal Slavery." --Admiral Robert J. Henner


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Thursday, February 23, 2012 6:52 AM

FREMDFIRMA



Interesting thought occurs to me all half-asleep at the moment, given the commentary so far, in regards to my role in things, just something to think about.

What if Saruman had remained loyal to the West ?

-Frem

I do not serve the Blind God.

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Thursday, February 23, 2012 6:58 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Hello,

West, East. He was a maia, with no allegiance but to the best interests of the world. If he had stayed true to his purpose, there'd have been no war to speak of.

--Anthony

_______________________________________________

"In every war, the state enacts a tax of freedom upon the citizenry. The unspoken promise is that the tax shall be revoked at war's end. Endless war holds no such promise. Hence, Eternal War is Eternal Slavery." --Admiral Robert J. Henner


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Thursday, February 23, 2012 7:02 AM

STORYMARK


Quote:

Originally posted by AnthonyT:
Quote:

Originally posted by Storymark:
Ah, so this has turned into another of Rap's "fear the Muslims" thread.

Boring.

"Goram it kid, let's frak this thing and go home! Engage!"



Hello,

Raptor's fear and hatred of the Muslims is actually off-topic.

His much more engaging initial purpose was to say things like this:

Quote:

The thing that interests me here, is that on the one side, you have groups who, if we're to believe them, will usher in massive new taxes and unbelievable redistribution of wealth, and for what ? Absolutely no significant , measurable benefit to the cause they're allegedly so concerned about, saving the planet. Of course, the other side is falsely accused of wanting to poison the water and pollute the air, which only inflames this argument between the different camps in the scientific community.


--Anthony



Oh, I know. I read that initial, extremely one-sided post. And it went downhill fast from there.

"Goram it kid, let's frak this thing and go home! Engage!"

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Thursday, February 23, 2012 11:56 AM

OONJERAH



Topic.
Let me see if I understand (finally) the original premise of the thread.
(The article by Andrew C. Revkin is hyper-babble-mode to me. I don't understand it at all.)
Someone(s) who are responsible for *something to do with Global Warming have lied about something.
*Something to do with could be their responsibilty to accurately inform the public about global warming?

Label: Fraud from the AGW crowd, one instance of.
Query: Do the assertions in the article check out? (Who knows? Who cares?)
Conclusion: Some (many, all) members of the AGW crowd are Liars. Trust none of them.

Hmmm. Nothing like a good babble to muddy the (warming) waters.


"All I suggest is a man hears what he wants to hear, and disregards the rest" ~Paul Simon

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Wednesday, February 29, 2012 2:30 PM

OONJERAH


¿Qué?

"UNCENSORED: The COMING ICE AGE is NEARLY HERE" : http://uncensored.co.nz/2008/07/10/the-coming-ice-age-is-nearly-here/

"I have managed to discover that not only is global warming not caused by man, but global warming is not happening,
in fact we have global cooling!"


Personal responsibility is the Truth.
Self determination triumphs over reaction.

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Wednesday, February 29, 2012 2:39 PM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Hello,

I seem to remember that years ago, before Global Warming was the prevailing theory, the specter of an Ice Age did in fact loom large on the minds of apocalyptic speculators. I'm not surprised to see the theory return in cyclical fashion.

Perhaps they should just split the differenca and call it Climate Instability.

--Anthony

_______________________________________________

"In every war, the state enacts a tax of freedom upon the citizenry. The unspoken promise is that the tax shall be revoked at war's end. Endless war holds no such promise. Hence, Eternal War is Eternal Slavery." --Admiral Robert J. Henner


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Wednesday, February 29, 2012 2:50 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by AnthonyT:
Hello,

I seem to remember that years ago, before Global Warming was the prevailing theory, the specter of an Ice Age did in fact loom large on the minds of apocalyptic speculators. I'm not surprised to see the theory return in cyclical fashion.

Perhaps they should just split the differenca and call it Climate Instability.

--Anthony









" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Thursday, March 1, 2012 4:52 AM

KPO

"Love is natural and real. But not for you my love. Not tonight my love..."


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_cooling

Quote:

Global cooling was a conjecture during the 1970s of imminent cooling of the Earth's surface and atmosphere along with a posited commencement of glaciation. This hypothesis had little support in the scientific community, but gained temporary popular attention due to a combination of a slight downward trend of temperatures from the 1940s to the early 1970s and press reports that did not accurately reflect the scientific understanding of ice age cycles...


It's not personal. It's just war.

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Thursday, March 1, 2012 7:28 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Read about half of this before I stopped, because once again, it turned into a "let's give A.U. attention" thread--and notice that even HERE, in a thread about climate change, he has managed to turn some of you to once AGAIN debating Islam, a subject which couldn't BE less related to climate change, but which is his obsession. Damn, folks...you must really enjoy talking to walls!



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