REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

Santorum: Women’s “Emotions” May Not Be “In The Interests Of The Mission” In Combat

POSTED BY: NIKI2
UPDATED: Sunday, December 4, 2022 11:40
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Tuesday, February 14, 2012 10:33 AM

BYTEMITE


Hero: Huh. Okay then.

Guess I learn something every day.

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Tuesday, February 14, 2012 1:10 PM

OONJERAH


Quote:

Originally posted by Niki2:
Sorry, Oonj, I wasn't clear enough. The first sentence was directed at you; the second sentence was both agreeing with you and directed at those arguing against allowing women in combat. I'm not going to bother going back to see who wrote essentially "it's always been this way...", but that was what I was responding to.



I didn't know. Thank you.


Here is my notion of a primitive (apes thru humans) society defending their village.

The females will form a ring around the children. The males will form a combat line around them
or in front of them. If the males lose the fight and things begin to look hopeless, the mothers
will probably grab their kid(s) and run like hell. Any females without kids will join what remains
of the male line in order to give the moms a headstart and the clan a chance to survive. In some
societies, females would not fight at all if they know the enemy means to capture, not kill, them.

I suspect that this behavior would be instinctive due millions of years of inter-tribal wars. (Yes,
I also suspect that inter-tribal war is not nearly as prevalent with apes as it is with the human
tribe.)
i.e., Genentically, males are built to fight. Females are built to protect the young. Females will
fight only if they have to.

For this reason, I assume that most women are not attracted to life in the military. And those who
are might be quite well suited to it.


P.S. "If a woman has to choose between catching a fly ball and saving an infant's life, she will choose
to save the infant's life without even considering if there is a man on base." --Dave Barry

"All I suggest is a man hears what he wants to hear, and disregards the rest" ~Paul Simon

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Tuesday, February 14, 2012 2:25 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by Hero:
Quote:

Originally posted by Niki2:
. You don't think African Americans in the military was a helluva distraction back when there were MANY in the military who were aggressively racist?


I considered the comparison, but it does not hold water. The African-American military legacy of good and faithful service in the front lines predates the founding of our country. Truman merely recognized what was common fact. African-Americans proved themselves time and again on the battlefield. By 1945 the Army, though segregated, had acknowledged as an institution that segregation was not necessary.

While homosexuals have a claim to a similar (if less obvious) legacy, woman have instead a long history of being shielded from combat (notable exceptions exist...Russia and Isreal are among them). Its practical and cultural, but those things don't carry the weight they once did. Modern medicine and birth rates eliminated the practical distinction and this has eroded the cultural one.



Women warriors predate the founding of this country, too, y'know. You may have heard of the Amazons before?


"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill

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Tuesday, February 14, 2012 2:37 PM

BYTEMITE


See also the Celtic tribes. Granted, it's possible that the number of women warriors have been exaggerated, but we do also know that they DID have them (and sometimes they fought naked). It's one of the reasons the Romans labeled them barbarians.

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Tuesday, February 14, 2012 5:25 PM

OONJERAH



I have always known that Amazons were a myth generated by the fevered male libido ... Maybe.

http://www.pbs.org/wnet/secrets/previous_seasons/case_amazon/interview
.html
<= Interview with Jeannine Davis-Kimball
My description: "Amazon" tribes of the Eurasian steppes, slightly B.C.

http://archaeology.about.com/od/biographie1/fr/daviskimball.htm <= Review of Davis-Kimball's Warrior Women

http://www.trussel.com/prehist/news22.htm <= Were ancient Amazons more than myth? by Kathy Sawyer


"All I suggest is a man hears what he wants to hear, and disregards the rest" ~Paul Simon

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Tuesday, February 14, 2012 8:49 PM

FREMDFIRMA



Statistically speaking, the percentage of women willing to fight is quite low, sure...

But within that percentage they'll kill the hell out of you, believe it.

Also, physical differences mean little, I was profoundly offended when our regular army chose to discard most of its marksmanship training in favor of more physical conditioning and indoctrination to the point where being able to hit anything with a rifle seemed almost an afterthought - and of course the combination of exhaustion and sleep deprivation makes that indoctrination all the more effective...
But it kills troops.

The marines get a certain premium on marksmanship training, and more of it, and THAT FACTOR ALONE, increases average survival chance and duration by 40% or more, I went over it here before.

And here's the rub, boys and girls - I am all of maybe 5'6" and even with a middle age spare tire well under 150lbs, but factually that means NOTHING - I don't care if the other guy is a 320lb glob of mutant man-muscle capable of breaking me in half like a toothpick, if I put a 7.62x54R through his damn skull (and helmet, and vehicle, and the buddy behind him...) he is still dead, and I am not.

All that lameass bullshit machismo which constitutes most of our military "training" these days is OF NO USE on a battlefield, but the army can no more realize this than admit that the gotterdammerung battles of the past are over, that the aircraft carrier and the thunder of field artillery are relics of the past - they're STILL trying to fight the battle of the somme, and that is why they lose.

Hell, even when I trained back in the mid-80's, they STILL included dress-right-after-volley in marching orders, it really was that bad, and nowawadays, it's worse - cause after the disaster of that little survey game in which they asked the troops if they'd fire on americans who refused to comply, and they realized that even 1-in-10, maybe as low as 1-in-30, balking at that order would cripple their intentions, they cut even more combat-useful training to increase the level of indoctrination, and added techniques that came more or less straight from those juvie hellcamps.

There's a REASON why I don't trust the mental stability of "The Troops" and consider them potentive enemies rather than potential allies.

Anyhow, muscle is meaningless on a modern battlefield, as are the excuses of these hidebound morons.

-Frem

I do not serve the Blind God.

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Tuesday, February 14, 2012 9:40 PM

OONJERAH



Quote Fremdfirma: "it's worse - cause after the disaster of that little survey game in which they asked the troops if they'd fire on americans who refused to comply, and they realized that even 1-in-10, maybe as low as 1-in-30, balking at that order would cripple their intentions, they cut even more combat-useful training to increase the level of indoctrination, and added techniques that came more or less straight from those juvie hellcamps."

Morons? I don't think so. Their agenda is different than the old one.

If we now have a standing Army on U.S. soil just in case TPTB find it necessary to subdue citizens,
then you don't want a soldier who is a loyal American. You want someone who'll do anything to anyone
if he's told to. However, the discipline among such has got to be the pitts. Very scary.

OK. I've not been in the service. But I think its intentions are different now.


"All I suggest is a man hears what he wants to hear, and disregards the rest" ~Paul Simon

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Wednesday, February 15, 2012 3:17 AM

HERO


Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:
Women warriors predate the founding of this country, too, y'know. You may have heard of the Amazons before?


You can't learn history from watching Xena...

H

"Hero. I have come to respect you." "I am forced to agree with Hero here."- Chrisisall, 2009.
"I agree with Hero." Niki2, 2011.

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Wednesday, February 15, 2012 5:02 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Quote:

Originally posted by Hero:
Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:
Women warriors predate the founding of this country, too, y'know. You may have heard of the Amazons before?


You can't learn history from watching Xena...

H

"Hero. I have come to respect you." "I am forced to agree with Hero here."- Chrisisall, 2009.
"I agree with Hero." Niki2, 2011.



Hello,

But Xena may get some of its ideas from History.

There is Historical precedent for female warriors and warrior queens.

--Anthony



_______________________________________________

"In every war, the state enacts a tax of freedom upon the citizenry. The unspoken promise is that the tax shall be revoked at war's end. Endless war holds no such promise. Hence, Eternal War is Eternal Slavery." --Admiral Robert J. Henner


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Wednesday, February 15, 2012 5:42 AM

BYTEMITE


Oonjerah: That's pretty much exactly what Frem was implying. Though I'd say it's less so much that they've changed, and more that it's more of the same. We haven't had anything well-meaning in military training since the end of world war II, when the training tactics of our enemies "INSPIRED" us. Since then, it's pretty much been shifting towards less marksmanship, more indoctrination.

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Wednesday, February 15, 2012 7:00 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Frem: "Yeah" to pretty much everything you wrote. I'm surprised to learn the focus has receded from marksmanship, tho', it would seem like that would be a very useful tool to have! Certainly moreso than any hand-to-hand, it would seem to me. But what do I know?

I think a good point has been made by both you and Oonj; however MANY women choose to join the service in a fighting capacity is unimportant, because those who would so choose would probably be suited for it, n'est pas? Certainly they'd be weeded out in Basic if they were foolish enough to join without realizing what they were getting into, I should think.

I always enjoyed Meg Ryan in Courage Under Fire...yeah, pure Hollywood, but I thought it was well done and I'm not a big fan of her OR Harmon.



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Wednesday, February 15, 2012 7:24 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by Hero:
Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:
Women warriors predate the founding of this country, too, y'know. You may have heard of the Amazons before?


You can't learn history from watching Xena...



And you can't learn it on a diet of only Reagan movies, either. ;)

"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill

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Wednesday, February 15, 2012 7:27 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by Niki2:


Frem: "Yeah" to pretty much everything you wrote. I'm surprised to learn the focus has receded from marksmanship, tho', it would seem like that would be a very useful tool to have! Certainly moreso than any hand-to-hand, it would seem to me. But what do I know?




The idea behind that is that "modern warfare" will be door-to-door urban fighting, where you're more likely to be hand-to-hand with your enemy than you are to be far enough away for any real marksmanship skills to have much bearing.

It's a wrong-headed idea, of course, because as we've seen in both Iraq and Afghanistan, you need BOTH kinds of training, because you're going to run into both kinds of trouble, and then some.

"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill

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Wednesday, February 15, 2012 12:32 PM

FREMDFIRMA


Well come on, it's bloody obvious they're setting these guys up to pacify US - still hoping to pull off REX84/CONPLAN or whatever the hell they're calling it now, and watching it proceed step by step seriously annoys the piss outta me, cause all it'd do is get a lotta people killed.

Seriously, it wouldn't even work, not only for obvious logistical/tactical/strategic reasons, but also for the simple fact that people both within and without the military and it's logistical support have been working to undermine it since that jackass Scoop Jackson first proposed it back in the freakin 70's - although he shelved it as unfeasible, till the Neocons of the late 80's early 90's pulled it out, dusted it off and decided to move on it, causing a retroactive coverup when the sent the alphabet boys to clean house on those files.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_M._Jackson#Jackson_Papers_controver
sy


But what has been seen, been read, cannot be unseed, unread - you cannot take back knowledge from peoples minds, and retroactive classification is meaningless at that point - mostly they just didn't want that stuff laying around as potential CRIMINAL evidence against them should their intentions fail, since it proves premeditation.

I think the worst of it is when folks cry "conspiracy theory" over this mess, cause how exactly is it still "theory" when more than half of it is OFFICIALLY DOCUMENTED POLICY, printed, signed and filed ?

The breaking point with me though, was deploying active duty elements of the dirty 3rd HERE equipped and trained to pacify us, their so-called protectees, that is on the very brink of treason it is, and following the atrocity committed by the 82nd Airborne following Katrina, those in power can have no good intentions for this, cause you may have noted they do NOT get deployed for disaster relief, do they ?

No, this is about power, and control, and with intentions that hearken back to at least 1933 if not before - one might notice a common theme of the same power collectives, much of it the same family dynasties, behind every goddamn bit of it, and tell me WHICH party was fronting this the whole way, hmmmmmm ?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Business_plot

And all we need is another Robespierre for things to get REALLY ugly.
I worry, I do.

-Frem

I do not serve the Blind God.

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Wednesday, February 15, 2012 2:15 PM

OONJERAH



Quote FremdFirma: "hidebound morons"

After I slept on it, I agreed with Frem's assessment of current Military Intelligence.

They are ready/planning-to pacify us when it is, politically, strategically, the stupidest thing they could do.

Why is it the Stupidest? Because we are such marvelous serfs to begin with.

What do people in the USA want? Food (includes dessert), entertainment, sports, cars. +the illusion of bein' Cool.
We have that. Even most homeless people have most of that. We're never gonna rebel, so we don't need pacification.

"Conspiracy theory"? Of course! Most folks are "USA, love it or leave it."
They couldn't believe our freedom & rights are a sham until the storm troopers drag them from their homes.
I was warned, but the reality of it took years to sink in. We are thick. See my signature.


"All I suggest is a man hears what he wants to hear, and disregards the rest" ~Paul Simon

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Wednesday, February 15, 2012 2:44 PM

HERO


Quote:

Originally posted by AnthonyT:

But Xena may get some of its ideas from History.

There is Historical precedent for female warriors and warrior queens.


Not since the Middle Ages.

You find me a woman who hears the voice of God, maybe we'll let her fight.

H

"Hero. I have come to respect you." "I am forced to agree with Hero here."- Chrisisall, 2009.
"I agree with Hero." Niki2, 2011.

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Wednesday, February 15, 2012 3:23 PM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Quote:

Hero wrote:
Wednesday, February 15, 2012 14:44
Quote:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by AnthonyT:

But Xena may get some of its ideas from History.

There is Historical precedent for female warriors and warrior queens.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Not since the Middle Ages.

You find me a woman who hears the voice of God, maybe we'll let her fight.

H

"Hero. I have come to respect you." "I am forced to agree with Hero here."- Chrisisall, 2009.
"I agree with Hero." Niki2, 2011.



Hello,

If you're looking to Joan of Arc for the pinnacle of female warriorhood, then you're looking in the wrong place. I sure wouldn't race anyone who heard voices to the front line.

If all the numerous warrior women of the 20th century are distasteful to you, I invite you to examine the warrior Queen of AD 60, Queen of the Iceni.

ETA: Oh, and Princess PingYang, who heeded no divine voices in her campagins, and was given a military burial at her death.

ETA2: Annnd this 19th century example, Rani Lakshmibai.



--Anthony





_______________________________________________

"In every war, the state enacts a tax of freedom upon the citizenry. The unspoken promise is that the tax shall be revoked at war's end. Endless war holds no such promise. Hence, Eternal War is Eternal Slavery." --Admiral Robert J. Henner


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Wednesday, February 15, 2012 4:04 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Forget it, Anthony - there is literally NOBODY who would satisfy "Hero" in his demands. Basically, his criteria is "show me a woman warrior who wasn't a woman."

"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill

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Wednesday, February 15, 2012 4:26 PM

OONJERAH



I am hearing voices. But they are nice voices. They say, "Hero is well read in history, and a lover
of books in general. Has excellent objectivity." They say nothing of his manhood.

I will meditate on this.


"All I suggest is a man hears what he wants to hear, and disregards the rest" ~Paul Simon

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Wednesday, February 15, 2012 4:36 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by Oonjerah:

I am hearing voices. But they are nice voices. They say, "Hero is well read in history, and a lover
of books in general. Has excellent objectivity." They say nothing of his manhood.

I will meditate on this.


"All I suggest is a man hears what he wants to hear, and disregards the rest" ~Paul Simon





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Wednesday, February 15, 2012 5:18 PM

OONJERAH


Quote Kwicko: "Still not sure if serious or completely sarcastic."

Intended as a playful mediation.

I see the cause for confusion tho.
One minute I want to be taken literally spot-on! The next, I am kidding around.
How can one's correspondents tell?

Clue: I didn't hear any voices.
_________________________________

P.S. I have long believed that Joan of Arc did hear voices, true prophetic ones, not schizophrenia.
I believe this because Mark Twain did, and I took him for an authority on it. Or was that book
intended as a novel?
Anyway, I couldn't see the French following a lunatic peasant girl. Something made them believe her too.

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Wednesday, February 15, 2012 6:35 PM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


"Anyway, I couldn't see the French following a lunatic peasant girl. Something made them believe her too."

Hello,

You never have to guess or wonder about God's prophets, according to the examples in the Bible. As much as the book tells us the virtue of believing without proof, it goes on at some length about how God will have his way. Hearts are even hardened or softened in the midst of plagues, as God exerts a kind of mind-control on his human pawns.

In short, you can't hinder a messenger of God until God wants you to. Given that fact, I'll use a healthy dose of skepticism when people claim to be taking orders from the big guy. My skepticism will never hinder the will of God.

As for Joan, she wouldn't be the first crazy person to inspire multitudes, nor even the first peasant crazy person to do so. The part of her story I find interesting is not so much her rise to lead an army.

Rather, it's her persecution, prosecution, abuse, and murder by those who felt she was threatening the status quo.

--Anthony





_______________________________________________

"In every war, the state enacts a tax of freedom upon the citizenry. The unspoken promise is that the tax shall be revoked at war's end. Endless war holds no such promise. Hence, Eternal War is Eternal Slavery." --Admiral Robert J. Henner


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Wednesday, February 15, 2012 6:44 PM

FREMDFIRMA


Quote:

Originally posted by Oonjerah:
I was warned, but the reality of it took years to sink in. We are thick. See my signature.


See Also: Bigfoot Effect, yeah.

I had an edge, I was born into such injustice and hypocrisy that I couldn't ever miss it if I tried.
It made for a... turbulent childhood, a bitter puberty, and somewhere in there I more or less devoted my life to dumping sand in the gears of the machine by the fistfull.
Not the usual petty and ineffective vengance of the young, although it kinda started that way, but a larger scale and scope aimed at crushing the roots of tyranny, primary among them warping children into its eventual acceptance, if not outright conditioning them to be its triggermen.

And first I learned how such monsters came to be, following the works of Andrew Vachss, Alice Miller, Doc Bruce Perry - and while I couldn't have much of an impact on how people parent, nor would I being an Anarchist wanna even try to run their lives for em anyways... I did start putting foot to arse in regards to WWASPS and their collaborators, a campaign that surprisingly paid off in Feb2009 and left me a bit bewildered since I hadn't thought to finish the job in my own lifetime, so now my focus is on reforming our educational and foster care systems while trying to cut Big Pharma and said systems off from medicating children into obedient little robot drones.

In short, I mean to deprive them of the triggermen tyranny DEPENDS on in order to function, cause without those merry little jackboots willing to take their orders, a would-be tyrant is naught more than a jackass with a loud mouth - individually a threat, but no more so than the average mugger.

What winds me up though, makes me hateful - is those who KNOW WHAT THEY ARE, who willingly and gleefully CHOOSE to serve such agendas out of hatred, intolerance, malice for their fellow man, that I cannot abide, not whatever.


As for warrior women...

How bout Leigh Ann Hester ?
Dunno who she is ?
http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/003847.html

Lyudmila Mikhailovna Pavlichenko ?
http://soviet-awards.com/digest/pavlichenko/pavlichenko1.htm

The Lady of the Cannon ?
(Agustina Aragon)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agustina_de_Arag%C3%B3n

Our Lady of the Axe, whom my shotgun, Forquet, is named for ?
(Jeanne Laisne)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeanne_Hachette

I could go on, but what's the point - anyhow, again, while the percentage of women *willing* to fight is quite small in comparison to the whole, those within that percentage are people I'd not mess with by choice, oh hell no.

-Frem

I do not serve the Blind God.

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Wednesday, February 15, 2012 9:41 PM

RIONAEIRE

Beir bua agus beannacht


Were Joan's voices from angels or from sz? It isn't my place to say. Either way she inspired many and did what no man could seem to do at the time, does it really matter which they were from?

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya

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Friday, February 17, 2012 4:20 AM

HERO


Quote:

Originally posted by RionaEire:
Were Joan's voices from angels or from sz? It isn't my place to say. Either way she inspired many and did what no man could seem to do at the time, does it really matter which they were from?


Actually it matters a lot. If its a miracle it matters more then if it was all in her head.

You see, if it's just her it means a lot to the French at the time, and less over time. If God was speaking to her it means a lot to all of humanity...because there is a God and he practices direct intervention.

H

"Hero. I have come to respect you." "I am forced to agree with Hero here."- Chrisisall, 2009.
"I agree with Hero." Niki2, 2011.

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Friday, February 17, 2012 6:23 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Quote:

Originally posted by Hero:
Quote:

Originally posted by RionaEire:
Were Joan's voices from angels or from sz? It isn't my place to say. Either way she inspired many and did what no man could seem to do at the time, does it really matter which they were from?


Actually it matters a lot. If its a miracle it matters more then if it was all in her head.

You see, if it's just her it means a lot to the French at the time, and less over time. If God was speaking to her it means a lot to all of humanity...because there is a God and he practices direct intervention.

H

"Hero. I have come to respect you." "I am forced to agree with Hero here."- Chrisisall, 2009.
"I agree with Hero." Niki2, 2011.



Hello,

One way or the other, it changes nothing for us right now. You still need faith to believe she was receiving divine instruction. But you also need faith to believe in God at all.

So, one way or the other, it really doesn't matter whether her crusade was personal or divine. Unless God comes down and gives personal testimony, which would get the job done with or without Joan.

I will forever remember her primarily as a wronged individual who was persecuted and prosecuted for upsetting the status quo. That lesson resonates through the ages much better than a few captured fortifications.

--Anthony



_______________________________________________

"In every war, the state enacts a tax of freedom upon the citizenry. The unspoken promise is that the tax shall be revoked at war's end. Endless war holds no such promise. Hence, Eternal War is Eternal Slavery." --Admiral Robert J. Henner


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Friday, February 17, 2012 6:52 AM

BYTEMITE


If the voices in your head are RIGHT and incredible military strategists, I don't see how it matters.

Of course, this is coming from my assumption that it's really all in their heads for anyone who believes they're hearing messages from God.

I also agree that the sticking part was her prosecution. I found it interesting how in the end, she even managed to convince her British executors, who as they burned her at the stake repented to God, fearing they would be damned for having killed a Saint.

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Friday, February 17, 2012 7:28 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Oonj: "Military Intelligence"...your oxymoron for the day.



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Friday, February 17, 2012 11:21 AM

OONJERAH


Quote:

Originally posted by Niki2:
Oonj: "Military Intelligence"...your oxymoron for the day.


It was I'm a foxy moron for the day.

Quote Hero: "Actually it matters a lot. If its a miracle it matters more then if it was all in her head.

"You see, if it's just her it means a lot to the French at the time, and less over time. If God was speaking
to her it means a lot to all of humanity...because there is a God and he practices direct intervention."

Exactly!

Anthony, Rionaeire, What matters to me is often totally irrelevant, even frivolous, to others.

If there is a God and He practices direct intervention, I'd think only an atheist could say "it doesn't matter."
In fact, I'd have to regard that view as intellectually lazy -- or someone who's just tired of hearing about God.
But here is a clue: Religion is rarely about God. And God is not about religion.


"All I suggest is a man hears what he wants to hear, and disregards the rest" ~Paul Simon

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Friday, February 17, 2012 11:23 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Quote:

Religion is rarely about God. And God is not about religion.
Oh, MOST excellent, Oonj!



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Friday, February 17, 2012 11:28 AM

BYTEMITE


Quote:


If there is a God and He practices direct intervention, I'd think only an atheist could say "it doesn't matter."



...I am confused by the contradiction.

But you are right that I'm an atheist, and that I don't believe hearing voices matters at all.

Quote:

Religion is rarely about God. And God is not about religion.



Thank you for the clarification. Being atheist I was unaware of that nuance.

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Friday, February 17, 2012 11:59 AM

HKCAVALIER


Oon,

I think what they mean by "doesn't matter" is more like "doesn't change anything." Whether god talked to M. D'Arc or not, doesn't change anything. We are still stuck right here where we are. N'est-ce pas?

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

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Friday, February 17, 2012 6:26 PM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Quote:

I'd think only an atheist could say "it doesn't matter."


Hello,

Most people would think that, and I would say that such thinking is also intellectually lazy.

I am a Christian with few 'friends' in my own faith.

If someone is God's prophet, and we know this, then it is of great importance.

But if someone is God's prophet, and we do not know this, we are left in the position we were before: Choosing to believe or not choosing to believe.

If we are believers, nothing has changed for us. We still believe.

If we are skeptics, nothing has changed for us. We still lack evidence.

Thus the practical impact is nil. Like the cat in the box, we can't tell the truth until we open it. Meanwhile, we enjoy the same uncertainty or certainty we already had, because both conditions can be true, and we don't have any more information than before.

--Anthony



_______________________________________________

"In every war, the state enacts a tax of freedom upon the citizenry. The unspoken promise is that the tax shall be revoked at war's end. Endless war holds no such promise. Hence, Eternal War is Eternal Slavery." --Admiral Robert J. Henner


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Friday, February 17, 2012 6:44 PM

BYTEMITE


That is an accurate representation of the source of my confusion.

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Saturday, February 18, 2012 11:56 AM

OONJERAH



What AnthonyT said encapsulated: a man hears what he wants to hear, and disregards the rest

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Saturday, February 18, 2012 1:55 PM

FREMDFIRMA



I had an answer to this which drove a Chem teacher up the wall, prolly still does.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schr%C3%B6dinger%27s_cat

All of this assumes the cat is an inactive participant, and thus can be assumed whoever proposed this theory knows nothing of cats.

It would only require waiting till the feline in question grew hungry, bored or annoyed at being stuck in a box, a period of substantially less than one hour, and whereupon said feline would make its presence and desires known, progressively and in an escalating fashion till impossible to ignore, as all felidae will themselves to be.

Ergo if said cat isn't throwing a fit within an hour or so, it's toast.

-Frem

I do not serve the Blind God.

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Saturday, February 18, 2012 2:21 PM

OONJERAH



"Emotions” May Not Be “In The Interests Of The Mission” In Combat.

Female cats, giving way totally to their emotions, are great fighters.

non sequitur anyone?

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Saturday, February 18, 2012 2:34 PM

BYTEMITE


Give in to your anger, you don't know the power of the dark side.

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Saturday, February 18, 2012 3:01 PM

OONJERAH


Quote:

Originally posted by Bytemite:
Give in to your anger, you don't know the power of the dark side.


      Hear, hear!

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Saturday, February 18, 2012 4:54 PM

MAGONSDAUGHTER


Quote:

Originally posted by AnthonyT:


As for Joan, she wouldn't be the first crazy person to inspire multitudes, nor even the first peasant crazy person to do so. The part of her story I find interesting is not so much her rise to lead an army.

Rather, it's her persecution, prosecution, abuse, and murder by those who felt she was threatening the status quo.

--Anthony






Well it wasn't so much a status quo that she was fighting, as being involved in the middle on a nasty ongoing dispute that was pretty close to being a proxy war and that she was used by both sides for their own gain.

Although it appears she was genuine in her belief in her visions, they were possible used to fire up a dispirited population, those loyal to the Armagnacs and Charles VI, and anti British forces. France as a country, wasn't really anything like how we imagine it today, not at all cohesive, with various factions warring for who and how it should be ruled.

Nothing like a visionary to inspire awe in your followers and despair in your enemies

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Saturday, February 18, 2012 5:09 PM

OONJERAH



Quote MagonsDaughter: "Nothing like a visionary to inspire awe in your followers and despair in your enemies."

Very true. But if she was a fake, there was no reason to kill her when they were done with her.
Nothing like a true prophet to embarrass TPTB.


"All I suggest is a man hears what he wants to hear, and disregards the rest" ~Paul Simon

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Saturday, February 18, 2012 5:19 PM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Quote:

Originally posted by Oonjerah:

Quote MagonsDaughter: "Nothing like a visionary to inspire awe in your followers and despair in your enemies."

Very true. But if she was a fake, there was no reason to kill her when they were done with her.





Hello,

There's this...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Witch-hunt

"The classical period of witchhunts in Europe and North America falls into the Early Modern period or about 1480 to 1750, spanning the upheavals of the Reformation and the Thirty Years' War, resulting in an estimated 40,000 to 60,000 executions.[1]"

If she was a fake prophet, then she'd be a witch or other instrument of Satan. At the time, this was a guaranteed way to be invited to a fireside chat.

ETA: Though technically, Joan was a few decades ahead of the curve...

--Anthony



_______________________________________________

"In every war, the state enacts a tax of freedom upon the citizenry. The unspoken promise is that the tax shall be revoked at war's end. Endless war holds no such promise. Hence, Eternal War is Eternal Slavery." --Admiral Robert J. Henner


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Saturday, February 18, 2012 6:59 PM

BYTEMITE


Seems it was a good way to get roasted whether you were a true prophet or not.

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Saturday, February 18, 2012 7:40 PM

MAGONSDAUGHTER


Quote:

Originally posted by AnthonyT:

Hello,

There's this...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Witch-hunt

"The classical period of witchhunts in Europe and North America falls into the Early Modern period or about 1480 to 1750, spanning the upheavals of the Reformation and the Thirty Years' War, resulting in an estimated 40,000 to 60,000 executions.[1]"

If she was a fake prophet, then she'd be a witch or other instrument of Satan. At the time, this was a guaranteed way to be invited to a fireside chat.

ETA: Though technically, Joan was a few decades ahead of the curve...

--Anthony




She wasn't burnt for being a witch, she was burnt for the crime of heresy which was quite common practise. It was all politically motivated of course, as she was handed over to the pro English Burgundians, probably for cash. the trial was a bit of a farce and then eventually everyone apologies but it was a bit too late.

Oops. Poor Jeanne. Only 19.

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Saturday, February 18, 2012 7:51 PM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Quote:

Originally posted by Magonsdaughter:
Quote:

Originally posted by AnthonyT:

Hello,

There's this...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Witch-hunt

"The classical period of witchhunts in Europe and North America falls into the Early Modern period or about 1480 to 1750, spanning the upheavals of the Reformation and the Thirty Years' War, resulting in an estimated 40,000 to 60,000 executions.[1]"

If she was a fake prophet, then she'd be a witch or other instrument of Satan. At the time, this was a guaranteed way to be invited to a fireside chat.

ETA: Though technically, Joan was a few decades ahead of the curve...

--Anthony




She wasn't burnt for being a witch, she was burnt for the crime of heresy which was quite common practise. It was all politically motivated of course, as she was handed over to the pro English Burgundians, probably for cash. the trial was a bit of a farce and then eventually everyone apologies but it was a bit too late.

Oops. Poor Jeanne. Only 19.




Hello,

I'm pretty sure she was executed for wearing men's clothes. And her conviction was overturned on the basis that wearing men's clothes could sometimes be allowed.

To my knowledge, she was never actually convicted for any word or action against God or Doctrine beyond that one.

But my point was that being a false prophet wouldn't be any safer than being a real prophet.

--Anthony

_______________________________________________

"In every war, the state enacts a tax of freedom upon the citizenry. The unspoken promise is that the tax shall be revoked at war's end. Endless war holds no such promise. Hence, Eternal War is Eternal Slavery." --Admiral Robert J. Henner


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Saturday, February 18, 2012 10:42 PM

OONJERAH


Quote AnthonyT: "I'm pretty sure she was executed for wearing men's clothes. And her conviction was overturned on the basis
that wearing men's clothes could sometimes be allowed.

To my knowledge, she was never actually convicted for any word or action against God or Doctrine beyond that one.

But my point was that being a false prophet wouldn't be any safer than being a real prophet."

Wearing men's clothes? That's an eye-opener!
I dunno what false prophets have to say ...
A real prophet would be telling the truth. A very dangerous practice in my opinion.

She was a warrior woman; she wore men's cloths, and she told the truth ala God.
How much more offensive could she be?



"All I suggest is a man hears what he wants to hear, and disregards the rest" ~Paul Simon

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Sunday, December 4, 2022 11:40 AM

JAYNEZTOWN


Born as a man named Richard

Rachel Levine sought studies favoring gender transitions for minors, email shows

https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/policy/healthcare/hhs-rachel-levine
-pennsylvania-childrens-hospital-gender-transition-surgeries

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