REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

I suspect vaccinations because...

POSTED BY: CHRISISALL
UPDATED: Friday, December 16, 2011 08:51
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Tuesday, November 29, 2011 5:54 PM

1KIKI

Today, scientists sound the alarm on other environmental dangers. Vested interests still hire their own scientists to confuse the issue. But in the end, nature will not be fooled. Neil deGrasse Tyson


Quote:

Agreed. Okay, I take back the effueahole and apologize. I'm a might touchy today, more than is usual for me. This whole diabetes thing has spun me about.



Apology welcomed and sincerely reciprocated. This is a new thing you're dealing with? In your shoes I'd be pretty rocky myself.

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Tuesday, November 29, 2011 6:03 PM

CANTTAKESKY


Quote:

Originally posted by chrisisall:
MOST vaccines in TODAY'S world and time are at best a harmless economic scam, and at worst a serious health risk given the political agenda, the amateurish preparation by minimum wage, ill trained personnel, and the desire to trust in those that know 'better than you do' despite sloppy, rushed and incomplete data.

For what it's worth, I agree with you about the need to investigate independently and not simply take Paul Offit's word that vaccines are the next best thing to manna from heaven. The industry has categorically refused to listen to parent concerns and seriously investigate potential dangers. They have lost the trust of many parents. It is their own doing.

I have often found it curious that so many anti-corporation folks would find it so easy to make an exception and trust pharmaceutical corporations unquestioningly. Bizarre.

My husband, who is much more educated than I, is convinced that all vaccines are a scam, neither effective nor safe, the modern day snake oil. So he would agree with you.

I am more cautious with my pronouncement. I believe vaccines are decidedly UNSAFE, but vaccines in general have some limited effectiveness. It is good for reducing symptoms for a short period of time after vaccination. I have reason to believe it does not prevent infection in many diseases, and if it does, it does not prevent infection for very long. I think vaccination usually results in subclinical infections which reduces diagnosis, giving the illusion of decreased disease rates.

So, benefits are greatly exaggerated, to make a buck. Such is the nature of greed.


-----
Never be deceived that the rich will allow you to vote away their wealth. -- Lucy Parsons (1853-1942, labor activist and anarcho-communist)

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Tuesday, November 29, 2011 6:04 PM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by Fremdfirma:

now they're trying to lab-grow some horrific hybrid variation of an H-series jumper flu which has Captain Trips written all over it, and I am far from sanguine about their motives here.


Both funny & disturbing ref to The Stand there, Frem.


The laughing Chrisisall


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Tuesday, November 29, 2011 6:08 PM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by 1kiki:
This is a new thing you're dealing with?

Reasonably new. Putting off the reality of it a bit, then it crashes on you a little. Still, it's not the end of the world or anything.

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Tuesday, November 29, 2011 6:10 PM

WISHIMAY

"Well, so long Earth...Thanks for the air... and what-not" -Philip J. Fry


I admit that I'm not a geneticist, but I seem to recall something or another about dominance or recessiveness in genes...

I'm fairly sure that its possible that you and your son's mother both carry the recessive genes necessary for the trait to appear. Also, I recently read an article that makes links to things like famine and it's affects on (particularly) granchildren and later generations...So, I suppose it's possible your great-great grandaddy didn't eat his vegetables, and maybe THAT was the cause...The point is-this timeline and it's sequence of events were set in motion the moment of fertilization. Having recently come to an understanding of my kids various problems, and mine as well, I can safely say that I never stop looking for possible cures, but there is NO WAY IN HELL that you are going to find out any time soon as to the cause. It is a moot point. Stop kicking yourself...It's unproductive... STOP THAT!!!

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Tuesday, November 29, 2011 6:15 PM

CHRISISALL


Thanks. I'm sincerely tryin' not to.

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Tuesday, November 29, 2011 6:17 PM

1KIKI

Today, scientists sound the alarm on other environmental dangers. Vested interests still hire their own scientists to confuse the issue. But in the end, nature will not be fooled. Neil deGrasse Tyson


It seems to me you have a good perspective. Not trying to jump in and tell you what to do but .... I spent years stressing over a child with major disabilities and ongoing medical problems. I wish I had stressed less and focused on the good stuff more.

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Tuesday, November 29, 2011 6:35 PM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by 1kiki:
I spent years stressing over a child with major disabilities and ongoing medical problems. I wish I had stressed less and focused on the good stuff more.

Now I'm REALLY sorry I blasted all over you.
Anger is just the easy side of sadness.

But joy is now, for each moment is alive with possibilities!
(sounds trite, but it's really what we have, all we have.
Unless you have a yacht...
Frack, I have to go for the funny... it's a defense mech)



Chrisisall


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Tuesday, November 29, 2011 6:48 PM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Hello Chris,

I said this recently to someone else.

My family is rife with diabetics. Generations plagued with it.

Cinnamon. Get Cinnamon pill dietary supplements.

Does amazing things to correct blood sugar. I have no idea why, but my father and I have both benefited.

--Anthony

_______________________________________________

"In every war, the state enacts a tax of freedom upon the citizenry. The unspoken promise is that the tax shall be revoked at war's end. Endless war holds no such promise. Hence, Eternal War is Eternal Slavery." --Admiral Robert J. Henner


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Tuesday, November 29, 2011 6:58 PM

1KIKI

Today, scientists sound the alarm on other environmental dangers. Vested interests still hire their own scientists to confuse the issue. But in the end, nature will not be fooled. Neil deGrasse Tyson


Well, it's so much easier to see when it's someone else. I know a family - they have one son. He was a surfer, songwriter, singer - on vacation last summer before he went on to graduate school in music. But he was involved in a horrible car accident. He lost some limbs, and some of his brain. For many weeks he was in a coma, fighting cryptic hard to localize infections, having repeated surgeries, fighting the ventilator, down to skin and bones. It looked like he might not make it. But he came back, only - not the same as before. The family is still devastated. They can't let go of the son he was. More important I think, they can't let go of the assumptions they made about what he would be. But it seems to me, if he is happy, then it's all good. It seems better to focus on the potential for the good things in life than to tie an anchor around your neck of the things that you thought were going to be.


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Tuesday, November 29, 2011 7:04 PM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by AnthonyT:
Cinnamon. Get Cinnamon pill dietary supplements.

Does amazing things to correct blood sugar. I have no idea why, but my father and I have both benefited.


I have no words but thanks, I will absolutely try it!!!


Chrisisall


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Tuesday, November 29, 2011 7:08 PM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by 1kiki:
it seems to me, if he is happy, then it's all good. It seems better to focus on the potential for the good things in life than to tie an anchor around your neck of the things that you thought were going to be.

I'm near to tears readin' this Kiki, great words & better meaning. Thanks.


The closer to laughing Chrisisall


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Tuesday, November 29, 2011 9:06 PM

RIONAEIRE

Beir bua agus beannacht


I really appreciated your last post about your family friend's son Kiki. I'm hoping his brain will learn to compensate and it will make a full recovery. But even if it doesn't I believe that you're right, safety, contentment and fulfillment are the most important things, even if they look different than what his parents wanted/were expecting..

Is the child from your previous post yours or that of someone you know/are related to? I guess I just want to know you better because the more I know about you the more I get along with you.

Chris a chara, I would tend to agree with Frem about all the crap in the food supply these days, its realllllly bad for one's body, especially if one's body has tendencies to process differently. I'm not saying that a vaccine connection is impossible, because it isn't impossible, just that there are more likely culprits nearer by and available. Also bad genes have to come from somewhere, maybe he's the first one in the family with the mutation? Sometimes that happens, it happen to our ancestors so it can still happen. Diabetes runs on my dad's side of the family, type one and type two, I hope it skips me.

I remember when you first mentioned it on this board, its hard for parents when things don't come out quite like they'd hope in regards to their kids' health so what you're feeling makes sense, the frustration, wanting to understand why. But this isn't your fault, I know you know that.

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya

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Tuesday, November 29, 2011 9:17 PM

CHRISISALL


R, you rock. Muchas Graciasisall.




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Wednesday, November 30, 2011 12:01 AM

MAGONSDAUGHTER


Hi Chris, sorry to hear you son has diabetes type 1.

I have nothing to say that hasn't already been said on the vaccinations issue, only that I don't think you should beat yourself up about it, if you are.

My crazy unsubstantiated theory is that in the future we will discover that viruses are responsible for a lot more diseases than we ever imagined, including onset of diabetes and cancers. But my knowledge on this stuff is limited to having watched a few documentaries and not having any expertise in this area.

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Wednesday, November 30, 2011 3:15 AM

CANTTAKESKY


Quote:

Originally posted by Magonsdaughter:
My crazy unsubstantiated theory is that in the future we will discover that viruses are responsible for a lot more diseases than we ever imagined, including onset of diabetes and cancers.

It is not as crazy or as unsubstantiated as you might think.

I am suspecting that autism is caused in part by a retrovirus.

-----
Never be deceived that the rich will allow you to vote away their wealth. -- Lucy Parsons (1853-1942, labor activist and anarcho-communist)

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Wednesday, November 30, 2011 3:28 AM

M52NICKERSON

DALEK!


Quote:

Originally posted by canttakesky:
Uh, nitpick much?

The concern about thimerosal is that it contains mercury. When someone says, "Thimerosal in vaccines does not cause autism," what they really mean is "Mercury in vaccines does not cause autism."

Stop reading if you wish, but it would be like rejecting an article discussing eating paint chips (lead) and brain damage because paint chips are not the same thing as lead.

You're missing the point.




No it is not a not pick at all. Thimerosal is not mercury. If you think, or an artical suggests that when someone talks about thimerosal they are talking about mercury you are showing a lack of understanding. That lack of understanding will lead you to think studies are flawed simple because you do not understand what they are saying.

I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.

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Wednesday, November 30, 2011 10:45 AM

WISHIMAY

"Well, so long Earth...Thanks for the air... and what-not" -Philip J. Fry


Ok, I just read an article in my good ol' fashioned paper newspaper, heh, that China is getting in on the vaccine making game. I'm glad mine is just about done with hers... Can't trust them with their OWN baby formula, or dog food, or drywall or the safety of a kindergarten class... I ain't trustin' em with something as complicated as a vaccine....

Now you can worry...

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Wednesday, November 30, 2011 11:05 AM

BYTEMITE


It's an organomercury compound, ethylmercury is a metabolite. In solution, ethylmercury degrades into inorganic mercury. It's not an incorrect statement to say vaccines have mercury in them when they have thimerosal in them.

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Wednesday, November 30, 2011 12:11 PM

M52NICKERSON

DALEK!


Quote:

Originally posted by Bytemite:
It's an organomercury compound, ethylmercury is a metabolite. In solution, ethylmercury degrades into inorganic mercury. It's not an incorrect statement to say vaccines have mercury in them when they have thimerosal in them.



Maybe it some solutions, but not in the body. Ethylmercury also does not accumulate in the body that way elemental mercury or other mercury compounds can.

http://www.immunizationinfo.org/science/elimination-methylmercury-and-
ethylmercury-body


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethylmercury

http://www.who.int/vaccine_safety/topics/thiomersal/statement_jul2006/
en
/

I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.

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Wednesday, November 30, 2011 12:44 PM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Hello,

I wonder what the benefit is of using a mercury compound in these injections? It seems odd that such a thing should be desirable, even if it proved to be non-harmful. Does this substance solve some essential problem to the vaccination process?

--Anthony


_______________________________________________

"In every war, the state enacts a tax of freedom upon the citizenry. The unspoken promise is that the tax shall be revoked at war's end. Endless war holds no such promise. Hence, Eternal War is Eternal Slavery." --Admiral Robert J. Henner


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Wednesday, November 30, 2011 12:49 PM

BYTEMITE


It's still toxic, especially in regards to the nervous system (though dose is a factor in regards to vaccines), and it still releases mercury in solution (such as the human body). I believe CTS was quite in fact correct. Thimerosal has mercury in it, it can degrade to mercury in vivo, therefore it is a source of mercury.

From your own link:

Quote:

The researchers found higher levels of inorganic mercury in the brains and kidneys of the thimerosal treated animals than in the methylmercury-fed animals.


*shrug*

Anthony - it's meant as a preservative that might kill anything else that gets into the vaccine, and it weakens live virus. As always, the question is whether those benefits exceed the risks.

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Wednesday, November 30, 2011 1:02 PM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Hello,

Goodness, do we still use live virus vaccines? That seems like a terrible idea.

It also occurs to me that if it will kill anything that gets into the vaccine, it can't be particularly healthy.

I know almost nothing of medicine, but wouldn't it be better to use dead virus in a non-toxic solution, and just be extra careful not to contaminate the vaccine?

--Anthony


_______________________________________________

"In every war, the state enacts a tax of freedom upon the citizenry. The unspoken promise is that the tax shall be revoked at war's end. Endless war holds no such promise. Hence, Eternal War is Eternal Slavery." --Admiral Robert J. Henner


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Wednesday, November 30, 2011 1:08 PM

BYTEMITE


The point of a vaccine is to prep a strong immune response in the event of the real thing. The protein coat of a (dead) virus is often enough, but sometimes they want the reaction to be more pronounced. With all the risks that might entail.

Sometimes we also use multi-virus vaccines, which is also probably an achievement in short sightedness.

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Wednesday, November 30, 2011 1:16 PM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Hello,

I wonder what screening process they use for recipients of these more hazardous vaccines. I have seen footage of poor, malnourished people in third-world countries receiving vaccines in a seeming assembly-line process. Were they vetted, I wonder?

If the subject needs to be strong and healthy before a vaccine is administered, I hope they make sure those criteria are met.

Sorry if these comments are ignorant. I really know nothing about the process.

--Anthony


_______________________________________________

"In every war, the state enacts a tax of freedom upon the citizenry. The unspoken promise is that the tax shall be revoked at war's end. Endless war holds no such promise. Hence, Eternal War is Eternal Slavery." --Admiral Robert J. Henner


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Wednesday, November 30, 2011 3:50 PM

RIONAEIRE

Beir bua agus beannacht


Yeah Wish that is scary.

Anthony, I think the questions you're asking are good ones that the industry should be asking itself on a regular basis so as to make things as safe and affective as possible. I wish people could be that objective about their own field.

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya

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Wednesday, November 30, 2011 6:58 PM

FREMDFIRMA



Well Anthony, that can of worms goes all the way back to Salk and batches of vaccine contaminated with SV40 which were still used even despite evidence some people knew this.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SV40#Polio_vaccine_contamination

I'm sure those responsible (along with Asbestos companies) were laughing up their sleeve later when that nutter Surgeon General Koop (who it has now been prettymuch acknowledged, was clinically INSANE while in service as SG, mind you) was so hell bent on blaming EVERY case of Mesothelioma on cigarette smoking, no matter how they had to "massage" the studies to do it - not that there's no link, just that his fanaticism left a lotta people swinging and focused blame unfairly on a single source.

Then comes the 1976 Swine Flu panic, and a "vaccine" which killed more people than the flu.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1976_swine_flu_outbreak
And guess who was up to the neck in it, and make out quite a bit financially ?
Donald Rumsfeld - who was ALSO involved in the approval of Aspartame as "safe" despite it's obvious toxicity even then.

Fast forward to Tamiflu and the "bird flu" panic, running by the same goddamn playbook as 1976, with Rumsfeld once again heavily involved and profiting, and once again the "cure" turned out to be worse than the disease - it's been banned in a couple countries and side effects or no, has also been found to be almost wholly ineffective besides.
http://www.upi.com/Science_News/2009/04/19/Report-Tamiflu-may-increase
-abnormal-acts/UPI-37321240170426
/

That was enough to draw my attention to the matter in the first place, and then the revelations started coming bang bang bang, from experimentation and accusations of deliberate sterilization via vaccination in Africa - of which there's no conclusive evidence in either direction, but given further events I do not believe the Pharma companies deserve benefit of the doubt, for medicine must always be ethically above reproach or it is no such thing.

Then there are the known problems with the MMR and it's own link to GBS, a link you'll see between many vaccines - problem is that no one seems to know yet the exact method of what will cause a patient to react so to the MMR or why/how - instead it's been chosen to simply write them off as acceptable collateral damage for a vaccine I feel is of rather dubious value.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guillain%E2%80%93Barr%C3%A9_syndrome

The words "acceptable losses" are meaningless when one of them is a member of YOUR family.

Thimerosal is suspect, of course, but so too are many adjuvants, which seem to be more harmful than the preservative itself and in combination with such may well be a known cause of neurocomplications that no one wants to admit.
http://www.whale.to/vaccine/adjuvants.html
For them shovelling the mercury-is-safe notion whatever, please note that it's no longer used in dental fillings BECAUSE it is dangerous, you can't have that both ways, either it's toxic or it ain't.

And why it's used, Anthony is simple - money, it's cheaper to use preserved multi-dose than single shot without such preservatives, which mind you ARE available although few will tell you and aquiring them isn't exactly easy - having recently assisted a friends pregnant wife in doing so despite my concerns, as the potentially safest option.

Then comes the "live" vaccines - which I noted before the CDC removed and purged the figures, the physical outbreak map of most flu outbreaks seemed to cluster around places giving flu shots, particularly those serving the elderly, whos immune system may not be in proper shape to wreck a live vaccine and thus they become carriers spreading the infection instead of helped - something no doubt tremendously profitable, and a downright chilling notion if that was as intentional as I've lately begun to suspect it was.

Worse is crap like flumist, which is essentially blasting live flu virus into the sinuses, and you consider say a walmart flu clinic serving children, who WILL sneeze in response, and contaminate the whole goddamn store.
(informing people of these dangers, even if it involved going head-on with medical folk claiming it was so perfectly safe, appears to have killed the market for it thankfully, cause common sense trumps medical jargon most of the time, thankfully)

Mind you - I was originally shouted down, mocked, and given the usual flamery for even suggesting that a vaccine could in fact CAUSE the very thing it was supposedly preventing, until time and time again that did in fact turn out to be the case.
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/10/11/health/11iht-polio.1.7847606.html
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2009/08/14/health/main5242168.shtml

How very profitable for the manufacturers, the outbreak and the fear sells the vaccine, and the vaccine then spreads the outbreak and fear - again, there was benefit of the doubt, right up to the incident with Baxter...

Mind, there had already been that whole re-creating the 1918 flu thing, which much noise was made about and drew my suspicion since there was no logical, medical reason to do so, and despite being again shouted down by so-called 'experts' who claimed no such thing can happen, it managed to "accidently" get wilded, only to get more or less curbstomped by eighty-some years of human immune system evolution, not to mention better healthcare and sanitation, yadda yadda...

And then what Baxter pulled - "accidently" shipping straight virus labelled as vaccines, which they got CAUGHT doing...
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=newsarchive&sid=aTo3LbhcA75I
And mind you violating BSL3/BSL4 procedures accidently is so goddamn close to downright impossible as makes no nevermind, and if they WERE that slapdash about it the obigatory inspectors woulda called em on it as there's no chance of effectively bribing them all - ergo, this *WAS*, in my opinion deliberate, and the timing coincides exactly with a horrific outbreak of EXACTLY THIS VIRUS in Mexico, who might not have doublechecked their lots as precisely as Germany did, resulting in some people getting a "vaccination" which amounted to pure virus.

And now this, same game, as I mentioned, a lab created Captain Trips wannabe, which there is NO logical or medical REASON to have laying around save as a bioweapon.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/11/29/bird-flu-h5n1-avian-flu-virus
_n_1118673.html

http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg21128314.600-five-easy-mutations
-to-make-bird-flu-a-lethal-pandemic.html


And finally.... Gardasil.

I expressed concern originally, as some of the marketing and fast tracked approvals seemed suspicious, and every bit of data I could cadge up about the initial safety and effectiveness testing made me cringe even worse - soon followed by a marketing blitz that firmly convinced me that they KNEW something was wrong with it and were trying to get maximum profit out of it before that penny dropped...
Something which I was, again, thoroughly flamed for even saying - Chris and Mikey were part of that particular discussion at the time if I recall correctly...
Then comes Governor Goodhair (Perry) bowing to his Big Pharma moneymen and trying to legally mandate it, just as the bodies start piling up, once again the primary adverse reaction being GBS or neurocomplications.
http://www.gardasilandunexplaineddeaths.com/

And so... here we are.
There's bloody good REASONS nobody trusts them, Anthony, and it wasn't too long ago that even asking those very real common-sense questions would all but get you run out of town on a rail by fanatics who believed the medical establishment could do no wrong - something I've known isn't true for a long time.

Plus, there's the question of technology marching on - just cause grandpa did it this way and daddy did it this way, that it's always been done that way, is no good reason to continue a practice that modern medicine and science may well have already rendered obsolete, but even saying so runs into both the assholes making a mint on it, and a certain scientific inertia resisting instead of accepting new ideas.

We have the ability to substantially boost immune system responses instead of crippling them during developmental periods, and might that not be a better way to go about it, shouldn't we at least LOOK into it ?

But nope, they get locked into this damn hidebound mindset about it which is IMHO as much faith as evidence, and like any mindset of the type offering facts does not whatever budge them but rather enrages them and causes further entrenchment.
(See Also: How Facts Backfire.)

Just cause something was at one time cutting edge or a good stopgap measure is no reason to go on relying on it till the end of time - we don't still add a dash of wine to our water, do we ?
Although we do still add bleach, which IMHO it makes no sense to actually *consume* any more than eating the packaging of your food and thus I am a big fan of affordable water purification systems - oh and I've never been convinced of the benefits of floridation neither, especially when the prevaling attitude from the establishment now seems to be "yeah, we lied, so what ?"...

Folks like to look for a single cause, but it's not so easy when we marinate our diet and environment with poison and then expect not to suffer for it, cause some asshat makin money on it told us not to worry.
http://www.damninteresting.com/the-ethyl-poisoned-earth/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Methyl_tert-butyl_ether_controversy

The latter, MBTE, actually got me howled at by the "greens" - damn short sighted assholes pushed for it, without thinking longterm and now it's done more damage and will require more cleanup than the "dirty" fuel it was supposed to replace - I hate fanatics, I do.

Anyhows, consider as well that my most recent bout with illness and hospitalization, once AGAIN conventional medicine had few answers for me, and them practicing it were as damnfool hidebound as expected - and once AGAIN it was "Mad Science" that carried the day.
People trust in what works for them, is what it is, and science marches on.



FOR SCIENCE!!

-Frem

I do not serve the Blind God.

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Wednesday, November 30, 2011 7:28 PM

1KIKI

Today, scientists sound the alarm on other environmental dangers. Vested interests still hire their own scientists to confuse the issue. But in the end, nature will not be fooled. Neil deGrasse Tyson


I have thought for many years now that the key to a successful vaccination program is to start any series with highly antigenic bits and pieces only, working your way up to live attenuated virus.

No vaccine is without risk. But like anything in life, you have to assess the upside and the downside both. The downside of not vaccinating can be far worse for far more people.






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Wednesday, November 30, 2011 7:35 PM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Hello,

What ails these people?

--Anthony

_______________________________________________

"In every war, the state enacts a tax of freedom upon the citizenry. The unspoken promise is that the tax shall be revoked at war's end. Endless war holds no such promise. Hence, Eternal War is Eternal Slavery." --Admiral Robert J. Henner


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Wednesday, November 30, 2011 7:36 PM

MAGONSDAUGHTER

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Wednesday, November 30, 2011 7:38 PM

1KIKI

Today, scientists sound the alarm on other environmental dangers. Vested interests still hire their own scientists to confuse the issue. But in the end, nature will not be fooled. Neil deGrasse Tyson


polio

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Wednesday, November 30, 2011 8:00 PM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Hello,

I recently read up on polio because it is currently being featured on a television show I enjoy.

What I read suggests that you have to eat/drink excrement in order to get it.

Also that about 1 in 1000 people actually come down with the paralysis.

Also that the virus is thousands of years old.

Also that, despite its age, people only seemed to get it in any quantity in the 19th and 20th centuries.

From the first and final perspective, the illness is very interesting.

I wonder why it suddenly became a problem in the modern era. I also wonder if we shouldn't invest more money into helping people to not eat and drink excrement.

--Anthony



_______________________________________________

"In every war, the state enacts a tax of freedom upon the citizenry. The unspoken promise is that the tax shall be revoked at war's end. Endless war holds no such promise. Hence, Eternal War is Eternal Slavery." --Admiral Robert J. Henner


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Wednesday, November 30, 2011 8:02 PM

FREMDFIRMA


And the downside OF vaccinating...
Can be exactly the same.

Did you not even READ those articles about vaccine-caused polio outbreaks, before jerking the knee ?

That seems almost a case of damned if you do, damned if you don't, and those people, hell, ANY people, deserve better fekkin options than that.

We CAN do better, we SHOULD do better, and we don't, cause it's not profitable.

I am of the firm opinion that we should - given as a world community, meaning not just the US, but every nation on the planet collectively, have the actual MEANS to - make things like enough food, clean water, and proper health care, all of a certain minimum standard, into basic human rights.

That we have not, nor seem to have any intention to, bothers me in a way I can't really find the words for at the moment.

-Frem
I do not serve the Blind God.

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Thursday, December 1, 2011 12:54 AM

CANTTAKESKY


Quote:

Originally posted by m52nickerson:
Ethylmercury also does not accumulate in the body that way elemental mercury or other mercury compounds can.

This statement is mostly based on a study by Michael Pichichero, where he compared ethylmercury levels from Day 1 to Day 21 after vaccination and found that blood ethylmercury levels fell rapidly. He concluded ethylmercury is excreted and eliminated from the body fast.

Problem with that? The blood samples from Day 1 through Day 21 came from 21 different children.

And the obvious whitewashing of the fact that just because it isn't in the blood doesn't mean it is outside of the body. If you compare the levels found in excretions and the levels measured in the blood, you will find a WHOLE lot of ethylmercury missing.

So anyone who repeats the canard that ethylmercury doesn't accumulate in the body in the same way as other mercury compounds hasn't read the original literature and is only parroting medical propaganda.

(ETA: It's been years since I've read the study myself, so if there are small errors in the above summary, I apologize. The gist remains the same.)


-----
Never be deceived that the rich will allow you to vote away their wealth. -- Lucy Parsons (1853-1942, labor activist and anarcho-communist)

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Thursday, December 1, 2011 3:07 AM

M52NICKERSON

DALEK!


Quote:

Originally posted by canttakesky:
Quote:

Originally posted by m52nickerson:
Ethylmercury also does not accumulate in the body that way elemental mercury or other mercury compounds can.

This statement is mostly based on a study by Michael Pichichero, where he compared ethylmercury levels from Day 1 to Day 21 after vaccination and found that blood ethylmercury levels fell rapidly. He concluded ethylmercury is excreted and eliminated from the body fast.

Problem with that? The blood samples from Day 1 through Day 21 came from 21 different children.

And the obvious whitewashing of the fact that just because it isn't in the blood doesn't mean it is outside of the body. If you compare the levels found in excretions and the levels measured in the blood, you will find a WHOLE lot of ethylmercury missing.

So anyone who repeats the canard that ethylmercury doesn't accumulate in the body in the same way as other mercury compounds hasn't read the original literature and is only parroting medical propaganda.

(ETA: It's been years since I've read the study myself, so if there are small errors in the above summary, I apologize. The gist remains the same.)



You missed the link I posted with does more then test the blood and found that ethylmercury is eliminated from the body. So no, that statement is not just based on a single study.

Then you also have the link that Magonsdaughter posted which points out how the amount of mercury contained in a vaccine containing thiomersal is so much smaller then exposes from other sources it is very near irrelevant.

I also love how you will lable literature from the medical community as propaganda yet will believe articles from website with little in the way of medical or scientific knowledge. Good job!

I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.

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Thursday, December 1, 2011 3:20 AM

M52NICKERSON

DALEK!


Quote:

Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
And the downside OF vaccinating...
Can be exactly the same.

Did you not even READ those articles about vaccine-caused polio outbreaks, before jerking the knee ?

That seems almost a case of damned if you do, damned if you don't, and those people, hell, ANY people, deserve better fekkin options than that.

We CAN do better, we SHOULD do better, and we don't, cause it's not profitable.



Sometimes accedents and mistakes are just that.

I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.

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Thursday, December 1, 2011 4:48 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Hello,

Upon further researching the polio vaccine, I found this disturbing news:

Quote:


A major concern about the oral polio vaccine (OPV) is its known ability to revert to a form that can achieve neurological infection and cause paralysis.[37] Clinical disease, including paralysis, caused by vaccine-derived poliovirus (VDPV) is indistinguishable from that caused by wild polioviruses.[38] This is believed to be a rare event, but outbreaks of vaccine-associated paralytic poliomyelitis (VAPP) have been reported, and tend to occur in areas of low coverage by OPV, presumably because the OPV is itself protective against the related outbreak strain.[39][40]
Doses of oral polio vaccine are added to sugar cubes for use in a 1967 vaccination campaign in Bonn, Germany

As the incidence of wild polio diminishes, nations transition from use of the oral vaccine back to the injected vaccine because the direct risk of iatrogenic polio (VAPP) due to OPV outweighs the indirect benefit of immunization via subclinical transmission of OPV. When IPV is used, reversion is not possible but there remains a small risk of clinical infection upon exposure to reverted OPV or wild polio virus. Following the widespread use of polio vaccines in the mid-1950s, the incidence of poliomyelitis declined rapidly in many industrialized countries. The use of OPV was discontinued in the United States in 2000 and in 2004 in the UK, but it continues to be used around the globe.[16][29]

The rate of vaccine-associated paralytic poliomyelitis (VAPP) varies by region but is generally about 1 case per 750,000 vaccine recipients.[41] VAPP is more likely to occur in adults than in children. In immunodeficient children, the risk of VAPP is almost 7,000 times higher, particularly for persons with B-lymphocyte disorders (e.g., agammaglobulinemia and hypogammaglobulinemia), which reduce the synthesis of protective antibodies.[38] The World Health Organization considers the benefits of vaccination to far outweigh the risk of vaccine derived polio. Outbreaks of vaccine derived polio have been stopped by multiple rounds of high-quality vaccination, in order to immunize the entire population.[42]

Outbreaks of VAPP occurred independently in Belarus (1965–66), Canada (1966–68), Egypt (1983–1993), Hispaniola (2000–2001), Philippines (2001), Madagascar (2001–2002),[43] and in Haiti (2002), where political strife and poverty have interfered with vaccination efforts.[44] In 2006 an outbreak of vaccine-derived poliovirus occurred in China.[45] Cases have been reported from Cambodia (2005–2006), Myanmar (2006–2007), Iran (1995, 2005–2007), Syria, Kuwait and Egypt.[46] Since 2005, The World Health Organization has been tracking vaccine-caused polio in northern Nigeria caused by a mutation in live oral polio vaccines.[47]



I imagine such things do not spawn any kind of comfort with the vaccines in question- the preferred vaccines in polio prone areas.

--Anthony



_______________________________________________

"In every war, the state enacts a tax of freedom upon the citizenry. The unspoken promise is that the tax shall be revoked at war's end. Endless war holds no such promise. Hence, Eternal War is Eternal Slavery." --Admiral Robert J. Henner


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Thursday, December 1, 2011 11:22 AM

1KIKI

Today, scientists sound the alarm on other environmental dangers. Vested interests still hire their own scientists to confuse the issue. But in the end, nature will not be fooled. Neil deGrasse Tyson


Frem and AnthonyT

"And the downside OF vaccinating... Can be exactly the same."

But the vast majority of the time is not. In fact, it provides a great overall benefit.

"Very rarely, vaccine-derived poliovirus can cause paralysis. Vaccine-associated paralytic poliomyelitis (VAPP) occurs in an estimated 1 in 2.7 million children receiving their first dose of oral polio vaccine. ...

Between 2000 and 2009 – a period in which nearly 10 billion doses of oral polio vaccine were given worldwide – 14 cVDPV outbreaks occurred, resulting in 428 polio cases. In the same period, wild poliovirus paralysed nearly 14 000 children."

If it were up to me, I'd do things differently. I'd start with purified virus (or bacteria) bits for any vaccination series. I'd move on to killed whole (except for pertussis where generic cellular bits seem to be an issue). Then I'd move on to live attenuated. But logistically in some cases it simply can't be done. Many people who are the focus of vaccination programs are of no fixed address - they are nomadic or semi-nomadic. Aside from putting RFIDs in them - which I wouldn't want - there is no way I can think of to track them and make sure they get their vaccinations in sequence and on time, no matter how much money and how many resources are spent.

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Thursday, December 1, 2011 11:33 AM

1KIKI

Today, scientists sound the alarm on other environmental dangers. Vested interests still hire their own scientists to confuse the issue. But in the end, nature will not be fooled. Neil deGrasse Tyson


Now THIS is a concept I have difficulty with:

http://www.biosciencetechnology.com/News/FeedsAP/2011/11/hope-for-new-
aids-protection-seen-in-mouse-study/?et_cid=2352669&et_rid=290281413&linkid=http%3a%2f%2fwww.biosciencetechnology.com%2fNews%2fFeedsAP%2f2011%2f11%2fhope-for-new-aids-protection-seen-in-mouse-study%2f


Hope for new AIDS protection seen in mouse study

The new study involved injecting mice with a protective gene, an idea that's been tested against HIV infection in animals for a decade.

A traditional vaccine works by masquerading as a germ, training the body's immune system to build specific defenses in case the real germ shows up. Those defenses are generally antibodies, which are proteins in the blood that have just the right shape to grab onto parts of an invading virus. Once that happens, the virus can't establish a lasting infection and is cleared from the body.

Scientists have identified antibodies that neutralize a wide range of HIV strains, but they've had trouble getting people's immune systems to create those antibodies with a vaccine.

The gene-injection goal is straightforward. Rather than trying to train a person's immune system to devise effective antibodies, why not just give a person genes for those proteins? The genes can slip into cells in muscle or some other tissue and make them pump out lots of the antibodies.

Dr. Harris Goldstein, director of the Einstein-Montefiore Center for AIDS Research in New York, who has done similar research in mice, called Baltimore's result a significant advance if it works in humans because it shows a single injection produces high levels of antibodies for a long time.

It might lead not only to preventing infection, but also a treatment for infected people, he said. If it allowed people with HIV to stop or reduce their medications even for temporary periods, they could avoid the inconvenience and side effects of the drugs, he said.





If it works as a therapy, I think it would be great. HIV is a retrovirus, which means it permanently inserts itself into human DNA. Doing genetic engineering on people who have already been virally genetically engineered seems reasonable (assuming its done with consent as a medical procedure). But I have problems with genetically engineering humans prophylactically.

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Thursday, December 1, 2011 12:00 PM

1KIKI

Today, scientists sound the alarm on other environmental dangers. Vested interests still hire their own scientists to confuse the issue. But in the end, nature will not be fooled. Neil deGrasse Tyson


"I wonder why it suddenly became a problem in the modern era. I also wonder if we shouldn't invest more money into helping people to not eat and drink excrement."

Just a few interesting asides - polio also infects and paralyzes other great apes.

As for why it's a problem now I have no idea. If I were to speculate with absolutely nothing to back it up, I'd wonder if it may have to do with human population density, where there are too many people and not enough time or space for the land and water to clear themselves of the viral burden before the next batch of humans comes in contact with it.

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Thursday, December 1, 2011 1:09 PM

BYTEMITE


1kiki: A possible immediate and dangerous problem I can see is that I don't imagine there's much way to control antibody production if all the cells in the human body are doing building antibodies and the modified cells can't turn it off.

It's like genetically modifying yourself a case of leukemia. Some doctors HAVE actually been considering it as a treatment for people who already HAVE AIDs, but as you noticed, it's probably not the best idea to do as a preventative.

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Thursday, December 1, 2011 3:05 PM

CANTTAKESKY


Quote:

Originally posted by m52nickerson:
I also love how you will lable literature from the medical community as propaganda yet will believe articles from website with little in the way of medical or scientific knowledge.

Just because I link to a website doesn't mean I believe those articles. Or that I believe every word in those articles. Propaganda is everywhere, on both sides. One has to intelligently and judiciously sift out little bits of truth from all sources.

I believe empirical evidence.

-----
Never be deceived that the rich will allow you to vote away their wealth. -- Lucy Parsons (1853-1942, labor activist and anarcho-communist)

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Thursday, December 1, 2011 5:12 PM

PIZMOBEACH

... fully loaded, safety off...


Quote:

Originally posted by chrisisall:
So my Son 'developed' Type 1 diabetes.
No genetic predisposition in the family.
What was he exposed to the Wife & I weren't?
Two things: Milk (he drinks hormone-free) & vaccinations.
Diabetes is on the rise in more well-to-do areas (where it's more likely everyone 'has their shots').
It's on the rise in cold areas (where peeps are more likely vaccinated for 'cold season').
And after he was diagnosed it was advised he get a flu shot to avoid getting it, which he PROMPTLY did a few weeks later.

My conclusion? Vaccinations are a scam. A dangerous one. Some peeps die, others get autism, etc.

Also, diabetes began its sharp incline in the early eighties, like, you know, AIDS.
We make our own plagues now, no need for fleas & ticks.

Where are you Signy, I need your comments...




Very sorry to hear Chris. I know you are not loving science right now but it's not all bad and as I have witnessed in my own family they are doing some amazing things, care and treatment really does advance.

By the way, did you know these folks have diabetes?

Halle Berry
Mary Tyler Moore
James Doohan

Larry King
Ernest Hemingway
Anne Rice
H. G. Wells

Sonia Sotomayor - yes, a Justice on the United States Supreme Court
Gary Hall Jr. - Olympian swimmer

Halle Berry (she gets mentioned twice 'cuz we like Halle).

I hope when you get some distance from the initial shock you'll start seeing some better news.



Scifi movie music + Firefly dialogue clips, 24 hours a day - http://www.scifiradio.com

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Thursday, December 1, 2011 5:48 PM

CHRISISALL


Thanks, Piz!!! Good to see success stories!!!


The laughing Chrisisall


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Friday, December 2, 2011 2:47 AM

M52NICKERSON

DALEK!


Quote:

Originally posted by canttakesky:
I believe empirical evidence.



If that was true you would not have started this thread.

I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.

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Friday, December 2, 2011 3:32 AM

CANTTAKESKY


Quote:

Originally posted by m52nickerson:
If that was true you would not have started this thread.

Snicker. I am flattered. I love being mistaken for Chris.

Hey guys, I'm gonna back off from FFF again. The more time I spend here, the more catty and snarky I become. Sorry about that. Y'all are both a good and bad influence on me. What to do, right?

-----
Never be deceived that the rich will allow you to vote away their wealth. -- Lucy Parsons (1853-1942, labor activist and anarcho-communist)

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Friday, December 2, 2011 4:12 AM

CANTTAKESKY


Quote:

Originally posted by m52nickerson:
You missed the link I posted with does more then test the blood and found that ethylmercury is eliminated from the body. So no, that statement is not just based on a single study.

The other study is slightly better, but not by much. Here is the monkey study.

http://ehp03.niehs.nih.gov/article/fetchArticle.action?articleURI=info
:doi/10.1289/ehp.7712


The study would have been more convincing had they done the following. I understand why they did what they did, but I disagree it was the strongest they could have done, science-wise.

1. Assigned the monkeys randomly instead of semirandomly.
2. Administered both the methylmercury and the ethylmercury via the same means, instead of methyl via mouth and ethyl via IM injection.
3. Measured Hg levels in urine and feces. If it's not in the brain, not in the blood, and THEN not in the excrement, we must believe the Hg may be accumulating elsewhere in the body. A good pharmokinetic study would have measured excretion for sure.
4. Other things a good pharmokinetic study would have measured may include injection site, saliva, cerebrospinal fluid, kidneys, liver, etc.

Finally, a question not of science but of human decency. First watch this video about what mercury does to the brain.



If your kid had to be one of these monkeys, would you rather he be in the ethylmercury group, the methylmercury group, or or the control group receiving no mercury at all?

Ultimately, it doesn't matter if ethylmercury is excreted faster than methylmercury or not. It is still fucking mercury and shouldn't be injected into children to begin with!

And that is the bottom line in this debate. Ethylmercury, no matter how differently it is processed than methylmercury, is still mercury.

OK, NOW I'm leaving.



-----
Never be deceived that the rich will allow you to vote away their wealth. -- Lucy Parsons (1853-1942, labor activist and anarcho-communist)

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Friday, December 2, 2011 4:45 AM

1KIKI

Today, scientists sound the alarm on other environmental dangers. Vested interests still hire their own scientists to confuse the issue. But in the end, nature will not be fooled. Neil deGrasse Tyson


"Ethylmercury, no matter how differently it is processed than methylmercury, is still mercury."

That's a bit like saying 'I don't care if it's cyanide or an amino acid, it's still nitrogen'. I don't think I have read anything so closed-minded, dogmatic and ignorant recently that didn't come from little Rappy or Wulf.

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Friday, December 2, 2011 5:06 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Chris, I have not had the time to read all the way through the thread, but your reasoning is very flawed.

But first, let me get to the vaccine and autism link: Autism begins IN UTERO. It is there before the child is even born. Vaccinations have nothing to do with it, no matter what CTS says.

AFA "diabetes" increasing, there is a huge difference between Type II diabetes, which is definitely increasing, and Type I diabetes. There are many possible causes for Type I diabetes. it appears to be an autoimmune attack on insulin-producing cells. Usually what happens is that the immune system reacts to ONE thing, then cross-reacts with something in the body. It could be triggered by a virus, it could be triggered by a specific allergy, it MIGHT be triggered by vaccination, it could be promoted by a defect in the immune system itself (inability to weed out misbehaving cells). For all I know, it is caused by lack of sunshine, which allows old and cranky white blood cells to persist on the linings of peripheral blood vessels. I would be willing to bet you a rather large amount of money that when the cause of Type I diabetes IS found, it will NOT be vaccination.

Why do I think this??? Because Type I diabetes has been around as long as humans. There are descriptions of it in ancient Greek medical texts... long before vaccines were ever invented.

I will do some research and tell you what I've found.

IN the meantime, let me tell you that I work with a guy who has Type I diabetes, and has had since he was about 10. He has to be disciplined with his diet and medication, but yanno what? He's doing great... just recently got promoted to group leader, in fact. And treatment options are getting better and better, including implantable pumps which meter out a little insulin all the time.

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Friday, December 2, 2011 6:39 AM

M52NICKERSON

DALEK!


Quote:

Originally posted by canttakesky:
The other study is slightly better, but not by much. Here is the monkey study.

http://ehp03.niehs.nih.gov/article/fetchArticle.action?articleURI=info
:doi/10.1289/ehp.7712


The study would have been more convincing had they done the following. I understand why they did what they did, but I disagree it was the strongest they could have done, science-wise.

1. Assigned the monkeys randomly instead of semirandomly.
2. Administered both the methylmercury and the ethylmercury via the same means, instead of methyl via mouth and ethyl via IM injection.
3. Measured Hg levels in urine and feces. If it's not in the brain, not in the blood, and THEN not in the excrement, we must believe the Hg may be accumulating elsewhere in the body. A good pharmokinetic study would have measured excretion for sure.
4. Other things a good pharmokinetic study would have measured may include injection site, saliva, cerebrospinal fluid, kidneys, liver, etc.



1. That is explained. "Infants were assigned to the three groups on a semirandom basis, in order to balance sex ratios and average birth weights across groups."

2. The study was looking at the difference between the two mercury compounds and how they are normally taken in to the body.

3. The study was specificly looking the brain because as you point out with your video that is where the major problems with mercury occur. It was a narrow study, which are what you use when looking at specfic things.

4. Again, see above.

Quote:

Originally posted by canttakesky:
Ultimately, it doesn't matter if ethylmercury is excreted faster than methylmercury or not. It is still fucking mercury and shouldn't be injected into children to begin with!

And that is the bottom line in this debate. Ethylmercury, no matter how differently it is processed than methylmercury, is still mercury.

OK, NOW I'm leaving.



It's nice that read at least part of the study to try and find flaws. It would have been better if you read the entire study and looked at what they found.

I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.

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