REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

Romney, Cain, and Bachmann approve of 'enhanced' interrogations

POSTED BY: ANTHONYT
UPDATED: Saturday, November 24, 2012 11:17
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Wednesday, November 16, 2011 10:21 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


http://www.cnn.com/2011/11/16/opinion/nordgren-waterboarding/index.htm
l?hpt=hp_bn9


Hello,

These three candidates seem to support waterboarding, a procedure I consider torture but which they do not. Bachman says the process is 'very effective' which makes me feel that these people are missing the point. Efficacy is not the measure we should be using, in my opinion. If we conduct ourselves purely based on the perceived effectiveness of things, we will become efficient monsters.

--Anthony


_______________________________________________

"In every war, the state enacts a tax of freedom upon the citizenry. The unspoken promise is that the tax shall be revoked at war's end. Endless war holds no such promise. Hence, Eternal War is Eternal Slavery." --Admiral Robert J. Henner



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Wednesday, November 16, 2011 10:37 AM

PIZMOBEACH

... fully loaded, safety off...


Completely agree with your assessment A. - theirs is not a country I would be proud to live in. Seriously, these candidates can't take a single right step.

Scifi movie music + Firefly dialogue clips, 24 hours a day - http://www.scifiradio.com

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Wednesday, November 16, 2011 11:41 AM

FREMDFIRMA



Well no shit - Romney being up to his goddamned neck in the hellcamp industry.

http://freedominourtime.blogspot.com/2007/06/mitt-romney-and-teen-tort
ure-industry.html


Mind you, it was actually addressing this, which more or less got Will Grigg, who is as decent a man as I have ever known, pitched out headfirst on his ear from the New American - and more or less blacklisted from the GOP in general, showing the true colors of their sociopathic, monstrous nature.

This is why there are no decent conservatives, why I consider it a mental illness - when no act is too monstrous to endure, so long as it's done by your party....

Then you are a monster, and my enemy.

-Frem

I do not serve the Blind God.

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Wednesday, November 16, 2011 11:44 AM

HKCAVALIER


Frememy?

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

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Wednesday, November 16, 2011 11:59 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!



Good. Great reasons to vote for them all.

This ridiculous fuss over enhanced interrogations is a complete and total farce. In the real world, where there are very real evil, bad people who want to kill innocents, a little water boarding, if required, is no where near too much to ask.

It is not, or ever was 'torture'. We don't put prisoners through anything simply because it's fun. They can easily avoid any / all such problems for themselves by cooperating. Unlike REAL torture, where the infliction of pain ( and worse ) is doled out simply for arbitrary reasons.






"The world is a dangerous place. Not because of the people who are evil; but because of the people who don't do anything about it." - Albert Einstein

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Wednesday, November 16, 2011 12:10 PM

BYTEMITE


Humane: characterized by tenderness, compassion, and sympathy for people and animals, especially for the suffering or distressed; inflicting as little pain as possible.

orig. mid-15c., variant of human, used interchangeably with it until early 18c., when it began to be a distinct word with sense of "having qualities befitting human beings."

Inhuman: lacking qualities of sympathy, pity, warmth, compassion, or the like; cruel; brutal; not suited for human beings; not human.

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Wednesday, November 16, 2011 2:35 PM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


"It is not, or ever was 'torture'. We don't put prisoners through anything simply because it's fun. They can easily avoid any / all such problems for themselves by cooperating. Unlike REAL torture, where the infliction of pain ( and worse ) is doled out simply for arbitrary reasons."


Hello,

I don't know where to begin with the horribleness of this statement.

First, phrasing suggests a lot.

'We don't put prisoners through anything SIMPLY because it's fun.'

This suggests it is fun, but that's not why we do it.

I... don't know what to say about that. I'll choose to believe it was a poor choice of phrasing. The alternative interpretation- that you said it exactly as you meant it, is too terrible to contemplate.

'Unlike REAL torture, where the infliction of pain (and worse) is doled out simply for arbitrary reasons.'

This implies that in order for something to be considered torture, it must be an arbitrary act. But such a belief system would condone any sort of awful behavior done in the name of... well, anything. As long as you tag a purpose to something, you can do it.

I find an urge to shudder at such a monstrous mentality. I can see why many of my friends fold to the viewpoint of calling Conservatism a mental illness. It's a very tempting viewpoint when confronted with such darkly evil philosophies. Please tell me you did not consider the implications of your statement. Please tell me that you do not actually believe this.

--Anthony


_______________________________________________

"In every war, the state enacts a tax of freedom upon the citizenry. The unspoken promise is that the tax shall be revoked at war's end. Endless war holds no such promise. Hence, Eternal War is Eternal Slavery." --Admiral Robert J. Henner


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Wednesday, November 16, 2011 2:53 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!



Quote:

This suggests it is fun, but that's not why we do it.


No it doesn't. It suggests that, unlike Saddam Hussein, WE don't torture out of pure spite. In fact, we don't torture at all. But when it comes to enhanced interrogation, we do it as a means of last resort.

Quote:

This implies that in order for something to be considered torture, it must be an arbitrary act. But such a belief system would condone any sort of awful behavior done in the name of... well, anything. As long as you tag a purpose to something, you can do it.



No,it implies none of that. We don't torture. Period. And we don't saw off fingers, or remove other body parts, simply as retribution to not adhering to the rules, or paying " proper respects " to our dear leader.
But yes, there IS a purpose to trying to get the cooperation of terrorists. It's to get them to talk, so more innocent lives can be saved.

You seem to ignore that fact, every single time. I guess it makes it easier for you to engage in demagoguery .

Quote:

I find an urge to shudder at such a monstrous mentality. I can see why many of my friends fold to the viewpoint of calling Conservatism a mental illness.


So, this implies that you're perfectly fine with the setting off of bombs on school buses, subways, or slitting the throats of airline attendants, and then flying jets into buildings.



"The world is a dangerous place. Not because of the people who are evil; but because of the people who don't do anything about it." - Albert Einstein

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Wednesday, November 16, 2011 2:56 PM

CANTTAKESKY


Quote:

Originally posted by AnthonyT:
These three candidates seem to support waterboarding,...

I just love Bachmann more and more each day. Can't wait to give Romney and Cain big bear hugs.

I weep for what my country has become.



-----
Never be deceived that the rich will allow you to vote away their wealth. -- Lucy Parsons (1853-1942, labor activist and anarcho-communist)

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Wednesday, November 16, 2011 3:03 PM

RIONAEIRE

Beir bua agus beannacht


Is being evil a mental illness? I don't really think it is. Its certainly horrific, but I don't think "evilness" is a checklistable symptom. Certainly some evil people have mental illness, Antisocial personality disorder for instance, but I don't think we can technically say evil itself is one. Unless you want to add in the DSM5 a coordinate for "Evil Evilness Disorder" which I would have issue with. I believe that most of us, all of us? Could be or become truly evil, or could have, had we been in a different situation. Some of us are closer to being there than others but still. Plus evil is relative, we've all done bad things, we've all hurt someone, physically or emotionally, we've all broken laws, we've all treated our fellow humans badly at some point. So in that sense we've all done wrong things, all sinned. Where do we draw the line between "evil" and common immoral or wrong behavior? I think there will be many answers to that one, because we all have different answers about what is and isn't immoral and or wrong. There are some we can all agree on, no murdering for fun, no raping, no hurting kids, no cheating people out of lots of money etc. But on other things I can guarantee we will not all agree.

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya

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Wednesday, November 16, 2011 3:09 PM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Anthony, darling, YOU'RE TAKING HIM SERIOUSLY! You might want to look to that. Raptor is not HERE to communicate, he is not HERE to make sense, he is here for the sole purpose of saying outlandish things which will push people's buttons. Haven't you figured that out yet? He is guaranteed to take the most extreme position possible against any and all posters here, even on occasion Wulf, and he seems to mostly ignore Geezer...always supposing neither of these are sickpuppets. The time you wasted responding to him means less than NOTHING, it merely gives him an excuse to respond further, get it?

You're right about the "monstrous mentality", but the very second you give in to believing him, you've only bothered yourself, you'll never bother HIM.

Of COURSE these people are totally insane...tho' more than likely they're all just pushing past one another to see how far right they can go, which is pathetic enough in its own right! But we can't know what they actually BELIEVE, you know that. This primary season for the Republicans has been the most pathetic I've EVER seen, their candidates are right out of a SNL skit, and no more. REAL Republicans have got to be squirming in their seats, embarrassed and just as disgusted as we are.

The concept of waterboarding IS monstrous, but any discussion of it should roll right over Raptor, who has NOTHING of value to say on the matter.



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Wednesday, November 16, 2011 3:09 PM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Hello Mr. Raptor,

I'm glad you wrote to refute your previous statements, because you catastrophically failed to communicate some of the things you meant to say.

Now it seems you only consider something 'torture' if it causes damage to the body. (Cutting off of fingers, removing body parts.) Or if it is done for political dissent.

You are absolutely wrong, obviously. I encourage you to study the definition of torture used by the international community. Causing pain, even without physical damage, is included. As it should be. There is no Hall Pass letting us cause pain to people for special reasons, however ostensibly noble we claim them to be.

What astounds me, repeatedly, is that conservative-minded people are fond of saying "Freedom isn't Free" when the call for war is sounded. People must fight and die, I am told, to secure our liberties.

I agree that we must die for our liberties, and even suffer for them, but apparently not in the way you are comfortable with. You see, I believe the price of freedom means upholding the values of freedom even when it is difficult, painful, or deadly.

More to the point, if a terrorist blows up my family because we didn't engage in the torture of suspected terrorists, then we have paid the price for freedom. We have died in order to live in a Free Country.

But if we torture those suspected terrorists, then we have lost our Freedom. We have Given it Away for a sense of Security.

And those who Sacrifice Freedom for Security, as you know, deserve Neither.

--Anthony


_______________________________________________

"In every war, the state enacts a tax of freedom upon the citizenry. The unspoken promise is that the tax shall be revoked at war's end. Endless war holds no such promise. Hence, Eternal War is Eternal Slavery." --Admiral Robert J. Henner


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Wednesday, November 16, 2011 3:12 PM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


CTS, I concur on both counts. One of my signs say s "we have lost our way as a nation", and it's what I truly believe.

Riona, personally I don't believe in "evil" people. People DO evil things, but in my world there is no such thing as an evil PERSON. We are all molded by something, and it's not my place to judge what molded someone into evilness; I'd rather consider what they DID as being evil. Maybe that comes from having no "religion" per se, I dunno, but for me evil is something someone DOES, not who they are.

Tho' I gotta admit, when it comes to Raptor... (just kidding) (mostly)



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Wednesday, November 16, 2011 3:20 PM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Ahh, now that's beautiful Anthony. While I abhor anyone taking him seriously, you used your response to make some really beautiful statements. Use him as an excuse to state your position, but never forget, he's NOT REAL. His purpose here is not to express his opinions, we have no idea WHAT his actual opinions are. He's here to be outrageous and inflammatory, THAT'S ALL.

The thing about Bachmann saying it's "effective" is that it's a lie. We've been around and around on waterboarding, it's been proven it's torture, it's been proven it didn't "keep us safe" in any way, shape or form--so the whole bit is just "My stance is righter than your stance, my stance is righter than yours" (You know the tune it's sung to). They caricatures, nothing else; Cain's in it for the same reason as Palin, to improve his speaking fees and sell books; Romney blows with the wind, when he can figure out which way the wind is blowing at that particular moment; and Bachman? Cain said it best: "Tutti fruiti", no more, no less. I can only pray that the people who voted for her didn't truly understand how bananas she is, and than now that they do, they kick her out. She is the EPITOME of the absurdity of Congress. None of them are worth paying much attention to; not a one of them can beat Obama with a stick, and they know it. What's more sad is that the thinking Republicans (no, I actually believe they exist, unlike unicorns and Santa Claus) have to be absolutely aghast at what their party has turned up this year!



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Wednesday, November 16, 2011 3:56 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Anthony,

I didn't refute anything. I merely clarified.

And I didn't catastrophically fail to communicate. You catastrophically failed to comprehend. Your bias in views other than your own prejudiced you to think the worst in what I said.

Per Waterboarding, and how the US performs it, I'm not wrong in refusing to acknowledge it as torture.

It's nothing remotely close to torture.

Quote:

More to the point, if a terrorist blows up my family because we didn't engage in the torture of suspected terrorists, then we have paid the price for freedom. We have died in order to live in a Free Country.



No, that's lunacy. If there's a chance you can briefly cause a terrorist some minor discomfort, to save the life of your wife and children, who otherwise will be dead forever, and you opt to to pamper the terrorist and watch your family die, the terrorist has won.

I hope you never experience such a dilemma. But even more, I hope you never have the fate of someone else's family in your hands, and opt to succor the terrorist, who has already stated clearly and in no uncertain terms, this is exactly what he wants to do, to kill as many innocents as he ( or she ) can.

Your denial and naive attitude toward reality is astounding.


And Niki, to answer your question, as you feign to ignore me, is to totally and completely affirm, these are my actual, real views on this matter. I haven't the time or interest to 'pretend' to support one thing, while actually believing another.

I take your childish surprise and nonsensical denial that anyone could possibly see the world as you don't to be nothing more than hyperbole and stubbornness.





"The world is a dangerous place. Not because of the people who are evil; but because of the people who don't do anything about it." - Albert Einstein

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Wednesday, November 16, 2011 4:18 PM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important



"Your denial and naive attitude toward reality is astounding."

Hello,

I think I have a better comprehension of reality than you think.

I nearly drowned, once. I fell into a pool as a child, fully clothed. I was not a good swimmer at the best of times, and in this crisis I was not up to the task. I plunged into the water, unprepared. I needed air, but I could not breathe. I struggled with all my might to reach the surface of the water, but I couldn't overcome the weight of my clothing. A rising panic consumed me. Eventually, I managed to get a hand up onto the concrete edge of the pool, but I could not summon the strength needed to pull myself up. My brain was on fire with terror, and my lungs burned with the need to summon a breath. I swallowed and coughed and screamed soundlessly into the water. I am not sure how long this went on. It seemed like forever. Eventually, before I passed out, a Cousin rescued me by grabbing my grasping hand and pulling me up.

I wasn't just traumatized by this experience for an hour, or the rest of the day. It marked me for life, and not being able to breathe is still one of the worst things I can imagine.

Waterboarding is specifically designed to re-create this incident. Not once, but over and over. Over and over and over and over. When I was drowning as a child, I had the chance to try to swim. The waterboarding victim has no such chance. They are tied down. They have zero control. It is no accident from which they suffer. Someone is doing this to them. Someone who hates them.

No Cousin is nearby. There is no lifeguard. No chance for salvation. There is only a man who hates you, the water, and the soul-shattering need to capture a breath. If someone slips up and you die, there will be no inquiry. And the water-boarder wants you to think this is a possibility.

You cannot deny this is torture and then presume to speak to me about naiveté.

--Anthony


_______________________________________________

"In every war, the state enacts a tax of freedom upon the citizenry. The unspoken promise is that the tax shall be revoked at war's end. Endless war holds no such promise. Hence, Eternal War is Eternal Slavery." --Admiral Robert J. Henner


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Wednesday, November 16, 2011 4:34 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!



Sorry that water scares you, Anthony. I happen to be a strong believer that everyone should learn how to swim, starting as young as possible.

But your phobias aside, that has nothing to do w/ the very real issue at hand.

Bad guys want to kill us, and no matter how scary your childhood trauma may be, they're still going to try to carry out their holy jihad. Because that's what this is to them. And you seem unable / unwilling to acknowledge that fact.

If you're a terrorist, and don't want to be waterboarded ? Simply. Answer the questions asked of you.

You think what we do is so terrible ? Then why was KSM actually counting, with his fingers, how many seconds we could 'legally' waterboard him ? Because HE knew, just as did those conducting the waterboarding, that there's a limit to how long this can go on. And KSM was so unafraid, so unpsyched out by the procedure, he was able to tick the seconds off with this fingers, telling his captors that HE KNEW how long they could do this for, and if they continued for too long, they'd could actualy get in trouble !

Oh, and as for there not being any lifeguard ? Quite the contrary. There's life guards all around them, at all times, when this is going on. The guys performing the waterboarding ? They've been waterboarded themselves. They know what's going on, what they're doing, and for how long. We're not talking about some amped up yahoos, like who participated in the Abu Grahib nonsense.

I do a few open water swims each summer. Maybe you'd like to join me some time ?





"The world is a dangerous place. Not because of the people who are evil; but because of the people who don't do anything about it." - Albert Einstein

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Wednesday, November 16, 2011 4:51 PM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Hello Raptor,

I don't think I'll be getting into the water with you. Thank you for the offer.

So... you are saying that waterboarding is ineffective. The victim of waterboarding in your example was calm and in command, and never in fear.

I am saying it is wrong, regardless of efficacy.

But I guess we both think it is pointless.

It is nice for us to come to the same destination through different routes.

--Anthony


_______________________________________________

"In every war, the state enacts a tax of freedom upon the citizenry. The unspoken promise is that the tax shall be revoked at war's end. Endless war holds no such promise. Hence, Eternal War is Eternal Slavery." --Admiral Robert J. Henner


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Wednesday, November 16, 2011 5:32 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!



May be pointless for some, effective for others. And that's the point. I'd rather have it as an option to use, and not use it, than not have it all.

Seems to have worked with KSM.

But you and I would both agree, if we can get info out of these guys with a nice, polite, and comfortable conversation ... that's cool too.



"The world is a dangerous place. Not because of the people who are evil; but because of the people who don't do anything about it." - Albert Einstein

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Wednesday, November 16, 2011 6:14 PM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Hello,

KSM is the figure you claim to have been not alarmed, calmly waiting through his waterboarding while counting the seconds and holding his captors accountable for the rules of interrogation.

You describe an ineffective procedure, and then claim effectiveness. There is a disconnect there.

You meanwhile suggest it (waterboarding) may be more effective on others. Do you envision them calmly enduring the brief discomfort while calmly counting seconds and holding their captors accountable?

The reason to do waterboarding is to create the very panic and pain I describe, in order to force the subject to divulge information (any information, really) so that the horrors of the procedure may hopefully come to an end.

So you can't really have it both ways. It is either terrifying, painful torture, or it is a passing, ineffective inconvenience. In the one case, the torturers are monstrous, and in the other case, the procedure is unnecessary anyway.

--Anthony



_______________________________________________

"In every war, the state enacts a tax of freedom upon the citizenry. The unspoken promise is that the tax shall be revoked at war's end. Endless war holds no such promise. Hence, Eternal War is Eternal Slavery." --Admiral Robert J. Henner


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Wednesday, November 16, 2011 9:31 PM

RIONAEIRE

Beir bua agus beannacht


As bad as this sounds I can see both sides of this.

My dad waterboarded himself in the bathtub once, just to try it and see what it was like, he wanted to see whether he thought it was torture. It scared the rut outa him.

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya

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Thursday, November 17, 2011 2:58 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!



It's certainly not fun. The whole point of wateboarding is that you'd rather not have it done. And to properly do it, one really can't waterboard themselves. The procedur , even before the actual waterboarding, is suppose to be psychologically challenging.

And Anthony, not everyone is the same. Not everyone KNOWS what KSM knew. Take a low level Taliban soldier, who may face the prospect of being waterboarded. He probably knows nothing of the rules which the US military have to follow, he's probably expecting something far worse. KSM ? He knew that the US will abide by the rules. That's why it took a lot of times to 'convince ' him that it's better to talk than have to endure more waterboarding. Once he talked, the waterboarding stops.



"The world is a dangerous place. Not because of the people who are evil; but because of the people who don't do anything about it." - Albert Einstein

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Thursday, November 17, 2011 4:23 AM

BYTEMITE


I've done it on accident before when I was a kid. Lot of adrenaline when you realize you can't breathe.

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Thursday, November 17, 2011 5:35 AM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


I Feel Your Pain: The Empathy of Torture

By Jeff Mosenkis

Senator John McCain re-entered the waterboarding/torture debate this month, first with an op-ed in The Washington Post, then on the Senate floor, taking issue with both the efficacy and morals of enhanced interrogation techniques, asserting that several of them are indeed torture. From McCain’s op-ed:

Much of this debate is a definitional one: whether any or all of these methods constitute torture. I believe some of them do, especially waterboarding, which is a mock execution and thus an exquisite form of torture. As such, they are prohibited by American laws and values, and I oppose them.

McCain’s anti-torture stance is well-documented and has been consistent throughout his political career. But a new study adds some scientific insight into why he feels the way he does.

In the current issue of Psychological Science, Loran F. Nordgren of Northwestern University’s Kellogg School of Management, along with his co-authors Mary-Hunter Morris of Harvard Law School, and prominent behavioral economist George Loewenstein from Carnegie-Mellon, tested if the “empathy gap” might explain differences in people’s opposition to particular interrogation techniques.

The empathy gap refers to how people who haven’t been through a painful experience have a hard time estimating just how painful it is (doctors underestimate patients’ pain; even patients underestimate how much pain they’ll experience during a future procedure). The researchers wondered if they could change people’s opinions on the morality and acceptability of an enhanced interrogation method simply by exposing them to a mild form of it.

First, they tested control groups’ opinions on acceptability and estimates of the suffering caused by three common interrogation methods: prolonged exposure to cold, solitary confinement, and sleep deprivation. They then subjected new groups to one of several mild versions of each. Students submerged one hand in a 40 degree bucket of water, stood outside without a jacket in cold weather, felt social exclusion by being subtly pushed out of a group game, and were tested under mild sleep deprivation (after a work day, MBA students were given a test at the beginning or end of a three-hour night class).

Each group that experienced the mild form of torture estimated the actual enhanced interrogation to be significantly more painful than the control group’s estimates, and were more strongly opposed to it.

The authors conclude that the current legal system for defining torture at a distance is problematic. According to Lowenstein:

Our research suggests that, except in a rarified situation, people are going to exhibit a systematic bias to under-appreciate the misery produced by the tactics they endorse.

McCain is in that rarified group, having been tortured himself. The study’s authors point out that those creating policy usually haven’t experienced the procedure, and are subject to this bias. Lowenstein recommends policy makers be aware of this and overcompensate by not using their natural instincts:

This is an area where we can’t rely on our emotional system to guide us. We have to use our intellect.





Sadly, seeing as how little Rappy has no intellect to fall back on, this leaves him out in the cold.

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Thursday, November 17, 2011 5:37 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!



McCain's ordeals aren't applicable here. Though his service is commendable, his views on this matter are out of line.



"The world is a dangerous place. Not because of the people who are evil; but because of the people who don't do anything about it." - Albert Einstein

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Thursday, November 17, 2011 5:43 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


2007:
Quote:

Waterboarding Is Torture, Says Ex-Navy Instructor

A former Navy survival instructor subjected to waterboarding as part of his military training told Congress yesterday that the controversial tactic should plainly be considered torture and that such a method was never intended for use by U.S. interrogators because it is a relic of abusive totalitarian governments.

Malcolm Wrightson Nance, a counterterrorism specialist who taught at the Navy's Survival, Evasion, Resistance and Escape (SERE) school in California, likened waterboarding to drowning and said those who experience it will say or do anything to make it stop, rendering the information they give nearly useless. http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/11/08/AR2007
110802150.html
, Washington Law Review:
Quote:

The laws of the United States make waterboarding unlawful in no uncertain terms. Three major treaties that the United States has signed and unambiguously ratified prohibit the United States from subjecting prisoners in the War on Terror to this kind of treatment. First, Common Article 3 of the Geneva Convention Relative to the Treatment of Prisoners of War, which the Senate unanimously ratified in 1955, prohibits the parties to the treaty from acts upon prisoners including “violence to life and person, in particular murder of all kinds, mutilation, cruel treatment and torture; . . . outrages upon personal dignity, in particular, humiliating and degrading treatment.”[18] Second, the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights, which the Senate ratified in 1992, states that “[n]o one shall be subjected to torture or to cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment.”[19] Third, the United Nations Convention Against Torture and Other Cruel, Inhuman or Degrading Treatment, which the Senate ratified in 1994, provides that “[e]ach State Party shall take effective legislative, administrative, judicial or other measures to prevent acts of torture in any territory under its jurisdiction,”[20] and that “[e]ach State Party shall undertake to prevent in any territory under its jurisdiction other acts of cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment which do not amount to torture . . . .”[21]

The United States has enacted statutes prohibiting torture and cruel or inhuman treatment. It is these statutes which make waterboarding illegal.[22] The four principal statutes which Congress has adopted to implement the provisions of the foregoing treaties are the Torture Act,[23] the War Crimes Act,[24],and the laws entitled “Prohibition on Cruel, Inhuman, or Degrading Treatment or Punishment of Persons Under Custody or Control of the United States Government”[25] and “Additional Prohibition on Cruel, Inhuman or Degrading Treatment or Punishment.”[26] The first two statutes are criminal laws while the latter two statutes extend civil rights to any person in the custody of the United States anywhere in the world.

The Torture Act makes it a felony for any person, acting under color of law, to commit an act of torture upon any person within the defendant’s custody or control outside the United States.[27] Torture is defined as the intentional infliction of “severe physical or mental pain or suffering” upon a person within the defendant’s custody or control.[28] To be “severe,” any mental pain or suffering resulting from torture must be “prolonged.”[29] Under this law, torture is punishable by up to twenty years imprisonment unless the victim dies as a result of the torture, in which case the penalty is death or life in prison.[30]

The War Crimes Act differs from the Torture Act in several respects. It applies to acts committed inside or outside the United States, not simply to acts committed outside the United States.[31] Second, it prohibits actions by any American citizen or any member of the armed forces of the United States, not simply to persons acting under color of law.[32] Third, violations of the War Crimes Act that do not result in death of the victim are punishable by life in prison, not simply for a term of twenty years.[33] http://lawreview.wustl.edu/slip-opinions/waterboarding-is-illegal/

2007, Former SERE instructor:
Quote:

As a former master instructor and chief of training at the U.S. Navy Survival, Evasion, Resistance and Escape School (SERE) in San Diego, I know the waterboard personally and intimately. Our staff was required to undergo the waterboard at its fullest. I was no exception.

I have personally led, witnessed and supervised waterboarding of hundreds of people. It has been reported that both the Army and Navy SERE school's interrogation manuals were used to form the interrogation techniques employed by the Army and the CIA for its terror suspects. What is less frequently reported is that our training was designed to show how an evil totalitarian enemy would use torture at the slightest whim.

Having been subjected to this technique, I can say: It is risky but not entirely dangerous when applied in training for a very short period. However, when performed on an unsuspecting prisoner, waterboarding is a torture technique - without a doubt. There is no way to sugarcoat it.

In the media, waterboarding is called "simulated drowning," but that's a misnomer. It does not simulate drowning, as the lungs are actually filling with water. There is no way to simulate that. The victim is drowning.

Unless you have been strapped down to the board, have endured the agonizing feeling of the water overpowering your gag reflex, and then feel your throat open and allow pint after pint of water to involuntarily fill your lungs, you will not know the meaning of the word.

How much of this the victim is to endure depends on the desired result (in the form of answers to questions shouted into the victim's face) and the obstinacy of the subject. A team doctor watches the quantity of water that is ingested and for the physiological signs that show when the drowning effect goes from painful psychological experience, to horrific suffocating punishment to the final death spiral.

Waterboarding is slow-motion suffocation with enough time to contemplate the inevitability of blackout and expiration. Usually the person goes into hysterics on the board. For the uninitiated, it is horrifying to watch. If it goes wrong, it can lead straight to terminal hypoxia - meaning, the loss of all oxygen to the cells.

The lack of physical scarring allows the victim to recover and be threatened with its use again and again. Call it "Chinese water torture," "the barrel," or "the waterfall." It is all the same.

One has to overcome basic human decency to endure causing the effects. The brutality would force you into a personal moral dilemma between humanity and hatred. It would leave you questioning the meaning of what it is to be an American.

Is there a place for the waterboard? Yes. It must go back to the realm of training our operatives, soldiers, sailors, airmen and Marines - to prepare for its uncontrolled use by our future enemies. Brutal interrogation, flash murder and extreme humiliation of Americans may now be guaranteed because we have mindlessly, but happily, broken the seal on the Pandora's box of indignity, cruelty and hatred in the name ofprotecting America.

Torture advocates hide behind the argument that an open discussion about specific American interrogation techniques will aid the enemy. Yet convicted Al Qaeda members and innocent captives who were released to their host nations have already debriefed the world through hundreds of interviews, movies and documentaries on exactly what methods they were subjected to and how they endured.

Our own missteps have already created a cadre of highly experienced lecturers for Al Qaeda's own virtual school for terrorists. http://www.nydailynews.com/opinion/i-waterboarding-torture-i-article-1
.227670?pgno=1
last year, the writer, polemicist and fierce proponent of the US-led invasion of Iraq Christopher Hitchens attempted, in a piece for the online magazine Slate, to draw a distinction between what he called techniques of "extreme interrogation" and "outright torture".

From this, his foes inferred that since it was Hitchens' belief that America did not stoop to the latter, the practice of waterboarding - known to be perpetrated by US forces against certain "high-value clients" in Iraq and elsewhere - must fall under the former heading.

Enraged by what they saw as an exercise in elegant but offensive sophistry, some of the writer's critics suggested that Hitchens give waterboarding (which may sound like some kind of fun aquatic pastime, but is probably best summarised as enforced partial drowning) a whirl, just to see what it was like. Did the experience feel like torture?

And amazingly, he has done just that. In August's edition of Vanity Fair, you can read all about it, and see more photographs of the "wheezing, paunchy, 59-year-old scribbler", his head hooded, being subjected to this most terrifying of ordeals by veterans of the US Special Forces.

The "official lie" about waterboarding, Hitchens says, is that it "simulates the feeling of drowning". In fact, "you are drowning - or rather, being drowned".

He rehearses the intellectual arguments, both for ("It's nothing compared to what they do to us") and against ("It opens a door that can't be closed"). But the Hitch's thoroughly empirical conclusion is simple. As Vanity Fair's title puts it: "Believe me, it's torture." http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/jul/02/humanrights.usa former deputy secretary of State, No. 2 State Department official in the Bush administration, says he hopes he would have had the courage to resign if he had known the CIA was subjecting terrorism suspects to waterboarding, an interrogation technique that simulates drowning.

Richard L. Armitage, the former deputy secretary of State, told Al Jazeera English television in an interview airing Wednesday that waterboarding is torture. http://articles.latimes.com/2009/apr/16/nation/na-armitage16 article is about the form of torture using water and a board. For the surface water sport using the wakeboard, see Wakeboarding.

Waterboarding in Cambodia during the Khmer Rouge regime. Painting by former prison inmate Vann Nath at the Tuol Sleng Genocide MuseumWaterboarding is a form of torture in which water is poured over the face of an immobilized captive, thus causing the individual to experience the sensation of drowning. Although a variety of specific techniques are used in waterboarding, the captive's face is usually covered with cloth or some other thin material, and the subject is immobilized on his/her back. Water is then poured onto the face over the breathing passages, causing an almost immediate gag reflex and creating the sensation that the captive is drowning.[1][2][3] Waterboarding can cause extreme pain, dry drowning, damage to lungs, brain damage from oxygen deprivation, other physical injuries including broken bones due to struggling against restraints, lasting psychological damage and death.[4] Adverse physical consequences can manifest themselves months after the event, while psychological effects can last for years.

And, of course, I need not post John McCain's views on the subject, as we've all no doubt heard them. As an ex-prisoner of war, I think his views are quite valid.
That's more time than needs to be devoted to the issue. I will, and we should, defere to legal, military and administration officials where the matter is concerned, and they are quite clear on the matter. A layman idiot like Raptor has no concept of what he is saying, which isn't new. And I'll keep saying it; he's not here to communicate, only to provoke. He has no actual, valid argument.

Oh, yeah, and if he finally admits it's torture but that it should be used anyway, THAT issue has long been settled as well:
Quote:

Two witnesses with substantial military experience told a U.S. House subcommittee in no uncertain terms today that waterboarding is not only torture but an ineffective method of obtaining information from terrorism suspects. A third military witness on active duty was expected to testify but was barred from doing so by the Pentagon.

Additionally, the two witnesses both attributed the U.S. decision to use waterboarding on some terrorism suspects to military higher-ups who have watched too many television dramas on the topic and have little real-life experience with conducting interrogations, reports CBS News.

Such "coercive" interrogation techniques aren't as effective as those that persuade suspects to cooperate, because harsher methods often elicit false information, Col. Steven Kleinman told a House Judiciary constitutional subcommittee today. He is a senior intelligence officer and military interrogator for the U.S. Air Force Reserves. http://www.abajournal.com/news/article/waterboarding_is_torture_and_in
effective_military_witnesses_tell_house_pane/
is illegal, ineffective, and morally wrong. The United States has signed numerous treaties condemning torture and abjuring its practice. Those treaties are the law of the land. And, yes, waterboarding is torture: in the past, we convicted and punished foreign nationals for torture by waterboarding. There are no legal loopholes permitting torture in “exceptional cases.” After all, those were the same excuses used by the torturers we once condemned.

Torture is ineffective. Information extracted through the use of torture is unreliable. In fact, the more severe the torture is, the less reliable the information it produces. Time and again, on the battlefield and elsewhere, other means of extracting information have been shown to work well, preserving opportunities to return to the prisoners for more intelligence. Acting on misleading information provided by a practiced informant can cost lives and squander opportunities to thwart attacks. http://www.princeton.edu/~slaughtr/Commentary/0801.torture.pdf sheer frequency with which waterboarding was apparently used on these two suspects may cast doubt on past Bush administration assertions that they were strictly obeying guidelines on the use of the practice, says the Times. It also notes that "a footnote to another 2005 Justice Department memo released Thursday said waterboarding was used both more frequently and with a greater volume of water than the CIA rules permitted."

The new information came out over the weekend [was] found in the footnotes of Bush administration interrogation memos.....

Information on the frequency of the practice, and the amount of water used each time, was redacted from some copies of the memos but not from others. The numbers were not included in initial reporting on the release of the memos.

"...where authorized, it may be used for two "sessions" per day of up to two hours. During a session, water may be applied up to six times for ten seconds or longer (but never more than 40 seconds). In a 24-hour period, a detainee may be subjected to up to twelve minutes of water application. See id. at 42. Additionally, the waterboard may be used on as many as five days during a 30-day approval period."

So: two two-hour sessions a day, with six applications of the waterboard each = 12 applications in a day. Though to get up to the permitted 12 minutes of waterboarding in a day (with each use of the waterboard limited to 40 seconds), you'd need 18 applications in a day. Assuming you use the larger 18 applications in one 24-hour period, and do 18 applications on five days within a month, you've waterboarded 90 times–still just half of what they did to [Khalid Sheikh Mohamed].

Last week, The New York Times made a similar claim in an article on the interrogation of Zubaydah, who was mistakenly believed to be a high ranking "lieutenant" in Al Qaeda before interrogators realized he was just "a helpful training camp personnel clerk," the Times reported.

Interrogators, who spoke to the Times on condition of anonymity, said they believed Zubaydah told them everything he knew before waterboarding began. They communicated this to agency higher-ups in Washington, who nonetheless insisted on the use of the practice, and asked to watch it take place. http://www.csmonitor.com/World/terrorism-security/2009/0420/p99s01-dut
s.html
and government officials who claimed it was either not torture, or torture which is "necessary" for the information that can be obtained, and those who claim valid information WAS obtained by its use, are lying to cover their own asses.


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Thursday, November 17, 2011 7:26 AM

STORYMARK


Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:

Per Waterboarding, and how the US performs it, I'm not wrong in refusing to acknowledge it as torture.

It's nothing remotely close to torture.




Except during WWII, when the Japanese did it - THEN it was. Plenty of court documents to prove it (but we all know your aversion to proof).

It only became okay when your Holy Dubya came around.

"Goram it kid, let's frak this thing and go home! Engage!"

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Thursday, November 17, 2011 7:40 AM

BYTEMITE


Of the many groups of people who won't ever quite see eye to eye with each other, the most serious disagreement and results come from those who believe The Ends Justify The Means, and those who don't.

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Thursday, November 17, 2011 12:12 PM

CANTTAKESKY


Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:

McCain's ordeals aren't applicable here. Though his service is commendable, his views on this matter are out of line.

Why would the views of a former presidential candidate and senator be out of line when it comes to torture as acceptable interrogation policy for the USA?

-----
Never be deceived that the rich will allow you to vote away their wealth. -- Lucy Parsons (1853-1942, labor activist and anarcho-communist)

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Thursday, November 17, 2011 12:23 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by canttakesky:
Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:

McCain's ordeals aren't applicable here. Though his service is commendable, his views on this matter are out of line.

Why would the views of a former presidential candidate and senator be out of line when it comes to torture as acceptable interrogation policy for the USA?




Easy. McCain,as a member of a recognized armed service, being in uniform, was guaranteed fair and proper treatment by the enemy govt which had him in custody. They ignored those rules, as he was brutally treated, and scarred for life. KSM, while not a member of any standing military, with intent to murder civilians, and under no protection of the Geneva convention rules, was treated far more humanely.

McCain's experience isn't comparable to what KSM had to face, thus the issue of 'torture' is moot.



"The world is a dangerous place. Not because of the people who are evil; but because of the people who don't do anything about it." - Albert Einstein

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Thursday, November 17, 2011 2:26 PM

BYTEMITE


...Wait. Why isn't this subject to Geneva Convention Rules for POWs? It says no protections for terrorists, but it does say there are protections for guerrilla fighters. I'm not sure what the difference is?

Also, even if they're not considered guerrilla fighters, there's a section that says that you only have to be a person hors de combat in order to fall under "No one shall be subjected to torture, corporal punishment or cruel or degrading treatment."

And even if this weren't torture, there's rules against mock execution in the Uniform Code of Military Justice.

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Thursday, November 17, 2011 7:55 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


That's too many facts, Byte. I think they might cause little Rappy's head to explode.

HOORAY!



(did I say that out loud?)

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Friday, November 18, 2011 6:58 AM

BYTEMITE


I know it's a joke, but wishing someone dead is going a little far for me.

AURaptor is someone who I disagree with on some things, and I agree with the observations about logical consistency that have recently been made. I also recognize that the prevalence of similar views has enabled some activities of corporations and our government that I also don't agree with.

At the same time, how can I blame one person for those views when they're not the ones making policy or enforcing it or benefiting from it? As the two parties pit Americans against each other, the predictable result is that they'll convince both sides to accept sometimes contradictory ideas and put them in competition with the ideas of the other side.

Ultimately, AURaptor's comments, when they don't match up across the board, may twinge my own ability to follow a conversation, or multiple conversations, but I don't find him having multiple viewpoints all that offensive. He is entitled to whatever it is he believes at the moment he's writing it, and in the very least it seems to me that he really DOES believe it WHEN he's writing it. So for that reason, when I'm responding to AURaptor, I only take into consideration the point he is making at the moment. It helps that my memory capacity and recall is absolutely execrable.

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Friday, November 18, 2011 7:21 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Depends on what you believe. In the time I've been here, and while it took me far too long to realize it, I've seen a very definite pattern to Raptor. In my opinion, he is not here to communicate; his intent is to rile people up and get attention, to say the most outrageous things with the knowledge that it will trigger SOMEONE into taking the bait and turning threads into playground fights. I don't think it's about what he believes at all, and that's why he's so inconsistent. His lies about things, when the issue has already been gone over and the things he's lied about have been clarified, says to me that he's just poking people to get a response, and the madder he can make people, the happier he is.

Nobody wished him dead, Byte (if you mean the crack about his head exploding). As I see it, it's just rhetoric, mockery and snarks. Which is about all he's worthy of.



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Friday, November 18, 2011 7:57 AM

BYTEMITE


I might suggest that you feel this way perhaps not because this is his intention in general, but because you are left wing and liberal, and often either an indirect or direct target of his opinions.

AURaptor has never particularly riled me, so I kind of disagree he's only here to rile people up. He is a browncoat, and he's on this board because he likes Firefly, he's less political when he posts elsewhere on the board. However, I concede he might be on the RWED to rile LIBERALS.

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Friday, November 18, 2011 8:09 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


I dunno Byte. You might check his responses to new threads...it's been my experience that he comes up with positive responses very rarely, and mostly only to those with whom he agrees. It may also be that there are mostly moderates and liberals here, so those are the best targets from which to get a reaction and attention. You have to decide for yourself; I'm not surprised he doesn't rile you up, you rarely DO get riled up, but if you look, you'll probably find that his response to most everyone here is something provocative, negative or unrelated to the subject at hand.

I'm not the only one who thinks this, either. If you look at threads in the past couple of days, you'll see similar opinions from Chris, now Anthony, and others. Each person has to make up his own mind, but over time, this is the conclusion to which I've come.



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Friday, November 18, 2011 8:36 AM

BYTEMITE


I've seen that AURaptor has posted some controversial subjects, and Anthony has questioned his opinions on them as is his right, and AURaptor, as is his right and particular idiom, got defensive about it. After some back and forth, AURaptor finally got angry, and Anthony decided it wasn't worth talking to AURaptor anymore.

I consider it a rather unfortunate situation, caused by the limitations of text over the internet in expressing emotions. I'm not sure either one of them would have pushed as much as they had if they had seen the human reaction behind the posts.

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Friday, November 18, 2011 8:55 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


As I said, we each have to decide for ourselves. But this has been a threadjack onto other territory than the initial topic, so I'm not going to take it further. There's nothing more to say anyway, it's personal opinion. Besides, I've GOT to pull myself away from here, all this time could have been put to better use. My intent was to find some news stories and reply to a few posts, but I've gotten hung up by some of the stories I've found and other topics, so I'm going to TRY to haul myself away.



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Friday, November 18, 2011 8:59 AM

BYTEMITE


On a broader scale, I'm concerned that most of the self-identifying right wing posters no longer seem to be posting on fireflyfans anymore.

Not getting into whether either side is correct or incorrect, this leaves me to wonder what will happen when they are all gone. I see two possible scenarios. The first is, with only liberals remaining, there will be a number of enjoyable discussions, but your numbers will also dwindle because there is not longer any challenge to debate on the board anymore, and topics will become shorter because everyone agrees with thm. The second possibility is that the goal posts will move and I will become the new "right-wing" poster, even though I'm nothing of the sort, simply because someone needs to be the scratching post.

I see some of you exulting over members leaving the board, and am troubled, because in my long experience of watching board after board die, an exodus of posters is in fact the bleeding out of the lifeblood of a board, no matter the popularity of those posters.

EDIT: You have posted before I did, and I will honor the request that I not threadjack further.

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Friday, November 18, 2011 9:06 AM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


"I know it's a joke, but wishing someone dead is going a little far for me."

Well, considering that someone's head can't actually explode, you can take that as a metaphorical statement, a general expression of ill will.

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Friday, November 18, 2011 9:23 AM

M52NICKERSON

DALEK!


Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:Easy. McCain,as a member of a recognized armed service, being in uniform, was guaranteed fair and proper treatment by the enemy govt which had him in custody. They ignored those rules, as he was brutally treated, and scarred for life. KSM, while not a member of any standing military, with intent to murder civilians, and under no protection of the Geneva convention rules, was treated far more humanely.


Art 75. Fundamental guarantees

1. In so far as they are affected by a situation referred to in Article 1 of this Protocol, persons who are in the power of a Party to the conflict and who do not benefit from more favourable treatment under the Conventions or under this Protocol shall be treated humanely in all circumstances and shall enjoy, as a minimum, the protection provided by this Article without any adverse distinction based upon race, colour, sex, language, religion or belief, political or other opinion, national or social origin, wealth, birth or other status, or on any other similar criteria. Each Party shall respect the person, honour, convictions and religious practices of all such persons.

2. The following acts are and shall remain prohibited at any time and in any place whatsoever, whether committed by civilian or by military agents:
(a) violence to the life, health, or physical or mental well-being of persons, in particular:
(i) murder;
(ii) torture of all kinds, whether physical or mental;
(iii) corporal punishment; and
(iv) mutilation;

(b) outrages upon personal dignity, in particular humiliating and degrading treatment, enforced prostitution and any form of indecent assault;
(c) the taking of hostages;
(d) collective punishments; and
(e) threats to commit any of the foregoing acts.

Sorry AU everyone is protect from torture, which waterboarding is, in the Geneva convention.

Try again!

I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.

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Friday, November 18, 2011 9:42 AM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


"Not getting into whether either side is correct or incorrect, this leaves me to wonder what will happen when they are all gone. I see two possible scenarios. The first is, with only liberals remaining, there will be a number of enjoyable discussions, but your numbers will also dwindle because there is not longer any challenge to debate on the board anymore, and topics will become shorter because everyone agrees with them. The second possibility is that the goal posts will move and I will become the new "right-wing" poster, even though I'm nothing of the sort, simply because someone needs to be the scratching post."

I personally don't see you becoming a 'scratching post'. And little Rappy does pretty much invite the attacks. It's not true that anyone who disagrees or anyone who is irrational, or anyone who is both will automatically be attacked. Look at PN for example - just as irrational with just as much disagreement, but nobody really goes out of their way to attack him, they just scroll.

There is a third alternative which is that people will come up with interesting topics to discuss where everyone will bring their experience, their knowledge, their biases, their opinions to the board to be discussed with equanimity. And if the topics are interesting enough, they will come up again since we are not about to solve all the world's problems or figure out every item here on the board.

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Friday, November 18, 2011 10:05 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Hello,

I have in the past attempted to reach PirateNews to argue against various posts of his, but I had no greater success in reaching him. I have for the most part abandoned all attempts to engage him in conversation.

I share Byte's belief that if Raptor were to depart, someone else would become 'the new Right' for the purpose of arguments. However, I believe that if people present well-reasoned or thoughtful arguments, there will be some respect shown regardless of disagreement.

I hope that is the case most of the time, anyway. Even reasonable people may occasionally become unreasonable, but it tends to be a short-lived affliction.

--Anthony


_______________________________________________

"In every war, the state enacts a tax of freedom upon the citizenry. The unspoken promise is that the tax shall be revoked at war's end. Endless war holds no such promise. Hence, Eternal War is Eternal Slavery." --Admiral Robert J. Henner


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Friday, November 18, 2011 10:55 AM

CANTTAKESKY


Quote:

Originally posted by Bytemite:
I know it's a joke, but wishing someone dead is going a little far for me.

AURaptor is someone who I disagree with on some things, and I agree with the observations about logical consistency that have recently been made. I also recognize that the prevalence of similar views has enabled some activities of corporations and our government that I also don't agree with.

At the same time, how can I blame one person for those views when they're not the ones making policy or enforcing it or benefiting from it? As the two parties pit Americans against each other, the predictable result is that they'll convince both sides to accept sometimes contradictory ideas and put them in competition with the ideas of the other side.


Wow, Byte. That moved me. Bravo. Brilliant.

Moments like these, I have grave, grave doubts about just how sociopathic you are.

-----
Never be deceived that the rich will allow you to vote away their wealth. -- Lucy Parsons (1853-1942, labor activist and anarcho-communist)

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Friday, November 18, 2011 11:05 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Well, this seems to be where this thread has gone, and I haven't managed to get off, just jump to doing other things on the internet (sigh...), so I'll respond.

I sincerely hope your fears aren't realized, Byte. I don't think I've ever "exalted" at people leaving the site, with a few exceptions it always saddens me. We need as many RATIONAL voices from all sides as possible. I have long wished for more rational voices from the right--I've never considered you a right winger, but if you say you are, that's fine. The fact that I HAVEN'T seen you as a right winger should illustrate that the way you post IS rational and reasonable for the most part, so I have no issue with you.

As to
Quote:

with only liberals remaining, there will be a number of enjoyable discussions, but your numbers will also dwindle because there is not longer any challenge to debate on the board anymore, and topics will become shorter because everyone agrees with thm.
I don't think that would happen...we're all different in many ways, so even if we were to all be liberals (which I would argue we are not), we'd still find differences enough to enjoy discussing and debating.

I think Kiki's assessment would be more on point:
Quote:

people will come up with interesting topics to discuss where everyone will bring their experience, their knowledge, their biases, their opinions to the board to be discussed with equanimity. And if the topics are interesting enough, they will come up again since we are not about to solve all the world's problems or figure out every item here on the board.
Aside from that, not everything is about politics, tho' I admit, from my efforts to post things which are NOT, that politics gets the most attention. Even there, however, there is a lot of disagreement.

You know, the people we see less of may well be because they got sick of the way things seem to always turn out here. We've lost many, many members just since I came, and others like Chris, Anthony, etc., disappear then reappear. If we didn't have so much of Raptor, here every day, posting nasty, anti-everything-but-what-he-believes stuff in every single post, we might not have lost so many over time.

I have NOTHING against people who disagree with me, it definitely makes for good conversation. But when someone is so adamantly nasty, determined to ignore facts, never EVER admits he may have been wrong on anything, condescending, posts little except attacks and absurd statements, etc., etc., there can be no communication. It gets frustrating; I stick around because this is one of the only two "social" outlets I have and I like and respect most people here, but if it weren't, I wouldn't be here, I'd have long since been turned off by his overwhelming presence and ability to threadjack almost every thread into an argument between himself and others.

In that respect I agree with Anthony:
Quote:

if people present well-reasoned or thoughtful arguments, there will be some respect shown regardless of disagreement.
I have no problem with Raptor and Wulf and Kane's (and no increasingly Geezer's) political beliefs, it's how they present them and that they're COMPLETELY closed to any dissenting opinions to the point where they get unpleasant. I wouldn't even say "some" respect; I respect all opinions and love to debate issues, with anyone, but I find no joy in attempting a rational, respectful debate with those who can be neither.

By the way, I didn't consider our discussion as you threadjacking...I probably started it, I just began to feel like we were going off topic so I shouldn't continue. And I've never considered you a "scratching post"...we disagree a lot, and we agree a lot, and, like I said, I've never considered you a right winger, just someone with sometimes differing opinions.



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Friday, November 18, 2011 12:28 PM

CANTTAKESKY


Quote:

Originally posted by Niki2:
I have no problem with Raptor and Wulf and Kane's ...

Speaking of the devil, when did Kane leave?

Kane probably helped more people disappear than Rap.

-----
Never be deceived that the rich will allow you to vote away their wealth. -- Lucy Parsons (1853-1942, labor activist and anarcho-communist)

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Friday, November 18, 2011 12:40 PM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Hello,

Please do not evoke that individual. I've had no use for that person since he threatened to rape Niki and her roommate.

--Anthony


_______________________________________________

"In every war, the state enacts a tax of freedom upon the citizenry. The unspoken promise is that the tax shall be revoked at war's end. Endless war holds no such promise. Hence, Eternal War is Eternal Slavery." --Admiral Robert J. Henner


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Friday, November 18, 2011 12:46 PM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


"Moments like these, I have grave, grave doubts about just how sociopathic you are."

Hello,

I think the Kinsey scale may be an applicable concept for all human conditions. I also think that one should not view a human condition as permanent or static.

--Anthony


_______________________________________________

"In every war, the state enacts a tax of freedom upon the citizenry. The unspoken promise is that the tax shall be revoked at war's end. Endless war holds no such promise. Hence, Eternal War is Eternal Slavery." --Admiral Robert J. Henner


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Friday, November 18, 2011 7:39 PM

BYTEMITE


Quote:


There is a third alternative which is that people will come up with interesting topics to discuss where everyone will bring their experience, their knowledge, their biases, their opinions to the board to be discussed with equanimity. And if the topics are interesting enough, they will come up again since we are not about to solve all the world's problems or figure out every item here on the board.



Perhaps.

I do have to wonder how long you all will be able to continue to stand me.

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Saturday, November 19, 2011 4:52 AM

CANTTAKESKY


Byte,

I don't always agree with you. And I may argue strongly. But I more than tolerate you. I value your input, always. I come here to learn, and you are a good teacher.

-----
Never be deceived that the rich will allow you to vote away their wealth. -- Lucy Parsons (1853-1942, labor activist and anarcho-communist)

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