REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

What would happen if we had the power

POSTED BY: RIONAEIRE
UPDATED: Tuesday, November 8, 2011 19:11
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Monday, November 7, 2011 7:55 AM

BYTEMITE


It is when his "moral agenda" creates places like Haiti.

Which is to say, not a moral agenda. And for someone calling ME self-righteous, he has some damn hypocrisy on his chin.

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Monday, November 7, 2011 8:01 AM

TWO

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly


Quote:

Originally posted by Bytemite:
It is when his "moral agenda" creates places like Haiti.

Which is to say, not a moral agenda. And for someone calling ME self-righteous, he has some damn hypocrisy on his chin.

Haiti was poorer before Paul Krugman was born than now. I am certain making teeshirts in Haiti for export is not the cause of Haiti's poverty.

The Joss Whedon script for "Serenity," where Wash lives, is
Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/two

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Monday, November 7, 2011 8:02 AM

BYTEMITE


Two, look a little sooner. When is a lack of currency devaluation good for an economy? When are microcosms and niche markets good for an economy? When is a lack of corruption and absence of monopolistic industry longrunners good for EVERYONE?

Yes, of course it's complicated. Yes, of course short run it's not good. But even Paul Kruger doesn't think the fall of the Euro is the end of the world, and the only reason someone like him is upset about it is because he's financially and philosophically invested in it.

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Monday, November 7, 2011 8:08 AM

BYTEMITE


Quote:

Haiti was poorer before Paul Krugman was born than now. I am certain making teeshirts in Haiti for export is not the cause of Haiti's poverty.


Don't be flippant with me.

Haiti was caused by the French oh-so-graciously allowing the Haitians buy themselves free from their own slavery, at the cost of an insurmountable national debt. Both financially, and in terms of the UTTER ENVIRONMENTAL DEVASTATION as all their lands and resources were exploited. With the earthquake hitting them, developed nations are at it again, this time after the oil they have offshore.

Now maybe places where we've exploited cheap labour in China and India have managed to avoid some of the debt problems through smart economics on their part, But I can GUARANTEE you that they're screwing themselves long run with the damage they've done to their country. They barely can feed themselves now. What's going to happen when they've destroyed themselves for the capital machine? They going to eat the contaminated dust from the deserts they've created?

Mexico hasn't even been lucky in regards to the DEBT thing. I'm telling you, the fluffy feelings people get about helping other nations by putting them to work? They're a lie.

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Monday, November 7, 2011 8:10 AM

TWO

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly


Quote:

Originally posted by Bytemite:
Two, . . .
Yes, of course it's complicated. Yes, of course short run it's not good. But even Paul Kruger doesn't think the fall of the Euro is the end of the world, and the only reason someone like him is upset about it is because he's financially and philosophically invested in it.

Krugman was opposed to the Euro unless (long list of technical objections that needed to be satisfied.) The objections were not dealt with before the Euro. They still aren't being dealt with. Suffering follows.

And high import tariffs on Haitian goods does Haitian poverty no good.

The Joss Whedon script for "Serenity," where Wash lives, is
Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/two

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Monday, November 7, 2011 8:15 AM

BYTEMITE


The Euro is essentially Free Trade, two. Whatever technical points he had about how to set up the Euro system doesn't mean he didn't support the basic idea.

And he sure isn't happy about it going to fail.

Quote:

And high import tariffs on Haitian goods does Haitian poverty no good.


Yeah, but a local economy might. You can't really have a local economy if you're selling tshirts to America for ten cents, but you only make one cent, and all the food you have to import costs twenty and the company towns you have to live in cost fifty.

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Monday, November 7, 2011 9:07 AM

BYTEMITE


I would also like to say that the "arrogant imperialist cod sucker" comment was not directed at anyone on this board. Rather, that was directed at Paul Kruger for insinuating that free trade is a benevolent program for developing nations and that anyone who opposes it is stealing rice from the mouths of their children.

Anyone who is a fan of Firefly by definition can not be an "arrogant imperialist cod sucker."

It occurred to me in retrospect that statement could have been misconstrued, and I apologize to anyone who felt unfairly targeted by it.

I edited my first post to make this more clear, because I started out quoting Two when I should have been quoting the blog comment that offended me so much.

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Monday, November 7, 2011 9:12 AM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


"Well, many observable benefits take years, if not decades, to become apparent."

I'm not getting why you are being so dense, since even you must know there's already lots of data on the effects of different types of government spending . So, pretending like we don't know nothin' and it's all equally just one big question mark? Isn't going to work.

But, let me repeat the points I've already made. That's where existing data comes in. There is data for many types of spending that show, indeed, there is a benefit. For example, every $1 in education reduces crime-related spending by $6. Head start increases graduation rates. OTOH many types of school 'reform' (which generally mean running it like a business, in fact turning it over to private business) have no data to back them up ... at all.

So, let me repeat myself once again ... Where there is existing data showing a benefit from government spending, spend. Where there is not, don't spend.

I hope it's clear enough for you now.

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Monday, November 7, 2011 10:03 AM

TWO

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly


Quote:

Originally posted by Bytemite:
The Euro is essentially Free Trade, two. Whatever technical points he had about how to set up the Euro system doesn't mean he didn't support the basic idea. And he sure isn't happy about it going to fail.

Krugman never wished the Euro ill, but he knew it is better if countries use different currencies because that allows for easy adjustments of prices and wages between countries. http://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/01/11/europes-ok-the-euro-isnt/

The Joss Whedon script for "Serenity," where Wash lives, is
Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/two

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Monday, November 7, 2011 10:17 AM

BYTEMITE


...Yeah, okay, I actually agree with that, and hey, I never said I didn't think he was a good economic analyst, because he is. But I still think he's wrong about Free Trade.

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Monday, November 7, 2011 1:59 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by Geezer:
Quote:

Originally posted by Magonsdaughter:
Who said compromise is the best option?



No one. But several folks here have been complaining that Republicans won't compromise, and I wanted to see if ther Liberals here would do any better at it.

"Keep the Shiny side up"





Well, we're compromising inasmuch as we aren't asking for the top tax rate to be set back to 94% like it was during the Eisenhower years.

"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill

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Monday, November 7, 2011 2:07 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by SignyM:
Just let me throw out a few specifics, but I prolly won't be around much to talk about them:

Cut military spending. We can start by eliminating all of our bases from allied and friendly nations (are we occupying Germany and Japan?) w/drawing from Afghanistan, and Iraq, ending military support towards Israel, eliminate all "supplemental" funds. If other nations want or need our "help", let them ask.



No, let them BEG. After all, we're told that's all the poor and hungry need to do in order to get the help they need - just beg loud and long enough, and some charity will likely help them. Let's just set up charities to help the Israeli Defense Force in its goal of bulldozing every house in Gaza.

Quote:


Revamp Medicare entirely. Raise Medicare tax rates, raise the maximum on which people are taxed, open up coverage to anyone below the age of 65 who is willing to pay the premium, and change the reimbursement system from paying for single diagnostic codes to paying for healthier outcomes overall.

Tweak Social Security slightly by raising the maximum wage on which people pay Social Security tax.



Here's where I'll "compromise" on Social Security: Raise the retirement age. It was set at 65 when the average life expectancy wasn't that long. It was a way of saying, "If you've made it this far, sit down, relax a bit, and let us take it from here; you've done enough." When life expectancies are approaching 72 and up, the retirement age needs to be raised.

Of course, as Geezer will agree, there are an awful lot of people who pay into that system who never benefit from it, because they die well before retirement age.

Quote:


Change the corporate tax code. Eliminate all deductions (interest payments, ordinary expenses, depreciations etc) except payroll and payroll taxes, and charge a lower rate which is no lower than the lowest personal income tax rate.

Create a transaction tax, which will slow down speculative trading.

Create a national bank; get rid of The Fed as a quasi-government bank.



No real problems with any of that.

"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill

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Monday, November 7, 2011 5:42 PM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up


Quote:

Originally posted by 1kiki:
For example, every $1 in education reduces crime-related spending by $6.



Proof? Cites?

"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Monday, November 7, 2011 7:15 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


Several studies, giving criminal savings in the same ballpark. Here's one:

web.mit.edu/workplacecenter/docs/Full%20Report.pdf

Other studies show general economic benefit:

http://www.nih.gov/news/health/feb2011/nichd-04.htm

the benefit of health education on healthcare spending:

http://www.nchealthyschools.org/components/healtheducation

and the economic benefit of higher education.

http://www.window.state.tx.us/specialrpt/highered05/

Overall, spending on education seems to have a high return.



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Monday, November 7, 2011 7:32 PM

RIONAEIRE

Beir bua agus beannacht


Don't worry about allocating time for this project, it was purely speculative so will not require any real time. In this scenario Magon's we were all elected, we all came by our congress/senate positions through normal elections.

I'd be fine with raising taxes on those who make over 500 thousand a year, totally cool with me. I'm willing to cut on _some military spending but I refuse to cut benefits or pay for soldiers/veterans. I also refuse to let our technology get way out dated so everyone else has better weapons than we do. But cutting some from the military budget would be acceptable, and since we're getting out of Iraq it should be easy to do that. I'm pro us doing the tarriff thing again, no more free trade stuff. My Irish butter will cost a bit more but I'm willing to pay the extra if it means all our jobs aren't being sent to China. I'm not willing to cut medacare/medicaid. I am willing to raise the retirement age, since we all live longer on the average. I'm willing to tax corporations more that are of a certain size. I'm not willing to tax small businesses more. I want waste eliminated, my only problem is that doing studies to see who is wasting will waste money. Maybe there's a way to figure it out without doing studies and setting up committees, lets do that way. I think marijuana should be legal for medical purposes but I'm not cool with legalizing drugs in general for for-fun use. I do think though that maybe making people pay fines for drug posession instead of sending them to jail would be more effective and open up jail space for people committing more serious crimes.

I think I'm fairly willing to compromise, not on everything and not all the time, but I think I'd be somewhat willing, especially if it means I get my way about the things that matter to me most.

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya

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Tuesday, November 8, 2011 12:03 AM

MAGONSDAUGHTER


Hi Rione,

I only asked those questions because getting elected and wanting to be elected again already means you've made about 1000 compromises and consessions to your own electorate and to those who have funded or assisted you to get into office.

so there is a big difference in imaginery land - which is where we all are - picturing ourselves in office, and actually being there and having to manage the political system.

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Tuesday, November 8, 2011 2:49 AM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up


Quote:

Originally posted by 1kiki:
Several studies, giving criminal savings in the same ballpark. Here's one:

web.mit.edu/workplacecenter/docs/Full%20Report.pdf

Other studies show general economic benefit:

http://www.nih.gov/news/health/feb2011/nichd-04.htm

the benefit of health education on healthcare spending:

http://www.nchealthyschools.org/components/healtheducation

and the economic benefit of higher education.

http://www.window.state.tx.us/specialrpt/highered05/

Overall, spending on education seems to have a high return.





Kiki, these are all sales pitches for more money for school and pre-school by groups and organizations that have a vested interest in getting more money. It's hard to consider any of them as objective analyses.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Tuesday, November 8, 2011 4:38 AM

CANTTAKESKY


Quote:

Originally posted by Geezer:
Kiki, these are all sales pitches for more money for school and pre-school by groups and organizations that have a vested interest in getting more money. It's hard to consider any of them as objective analyses.

Arguments should be refuted on their own merits. Dismissing cites that you asked for categorically because you don't like their authorship is.... lazy and intellectually disingenuous.

Rather, you should read those citations, and point out what methodological flaws and weaknesses exist in those studies that betray the underlying bias you believe makes these studies invalid.

Otherwise, your argument is like my saying: "I won't listen to a thing you say, cause you're Geezer."

It's childish.



-----
Never be deceived that the rich will allow you to vote away their wealth. -- Lucy Parsons (1853-1942, labor activist and anarcho-communist)

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Tuesday, November 8, 2011 5:04 AM

CANTTAKESKY


Quote:

Originally posted by 1kiki:
web.mit.edu/workplacecenter/docs/Full%20Report.pdf



This reads like propaganda. It makes broad claims without offering any evidence.

Quote:

http://www.nih.gov/news/health/feb2011/nichd-04.htm


This is better, though numbers would be nice.

Still even they make the point that the study is simply correlational, and a causal effect between early education and desirable outcomes cannot be concluded. In addition, they did not study groups that weren't low-income and/or minority populations. So how much you can generalize the results is disputable.

Yes, that many correlations exist is not in dispute. What I am more doubtful of is whether these correlations should shape policy.

What if, for example, that the reason the kids commit less crime later is because they are more deeply indoctrinated to follow rules. But the cost of all this rigid rule-following is robotic thinking devoid of creativity, which carries the invisible costs of less problem-solving in general?

Or what if, for example, the reason the kids do better is because they all come from low-income, neglected and unsupervised households, and the structure of early childhood education offers them supervision they would not otherwise receive. That is, maybe it is not the education itself, but the attention they receive that is helpful. If that is the case, the tax money would be better spent educating the parents to become better parents than to educate the children early.

The issues are complicated, not so black and white. There are a lot of variables to tease out before we use oversimplistic correlational studies to allocate precious taxpayer money.


-----
Never be deceived that the rich will allow you to vote away their wealth. -- Lucy Parsons (1853-1942, labor activist and anarcho-communist)

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Tuesday, November 8, 2011 5:07 AM

CANTTAKESKY


Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:
Let's just set up charities to help the Israeli Defense Force in its goal of bulldozing every house in Gaza.

Bwahaahaaa.

-----
Never be deceived that the rich will allow you to vote away their wealth. -- Lucy Parsons (1853-1942, labor activist and anarcho-communist)

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Tuesday, November 8, 2011 5:31 AM

BYTEMITE


Quote:

Arguments should be refuted on their own merits. Dismissing cites that you asked for categorically because you don't like their authorship is.... lazy and intellectually disingenuous.

Rather, you should read those citations, and point out what methodological flaws and weaknesses exist in those studies that betray the underlying bias you believe makes these studies invalid.

Otherwise, your argument is like my saying: "I won't listen to a thing you say, cause you're Geezer."

It's childish.



I dunno. I do think it's fair to evaluate a study based on it's authorship, especially if it's something like "lesbian parents make the best parents" as paid for by the Lesbian Educational Society for Better Information in the American Nation. I might even find plenty to agree with in the study, or good points made, but whether the study itself was conducted objectively and without bias will always be in question.

Similarly so if you're considering groups with an obvious agenda, or a suspected agenda, or you can guess at their preconceived notions even if you don't have immediate evidence for it.

If a particular study is questionable to start with, in my experience it tends to fall apart with any scrutiny.

I would not be surprised if 1kiki's numbers reflect reality, but how those numbers are interpreted, what conclusions are reached, and who's doing the interpretation can cause a fairly significant effect. Much like you realized when you looked closer.

It could be that the conclusions ARE correct, or are a major factor with several other factors, but it sounds like nothing was ruled out, either.

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Tuesday, November 8, 2011 6:31 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Kiki: Also http://legacy.bentley.edu/alliance/documents/Prevention_Model_Mar-2011
%5B1%5D.pdf
For every $1 invested in quality preschool education, $6 to $10 is gained from such items as tax revenues, reduced remedial help, and lower criminal justice costs." which provide a link to ERIC (Education Resources Information Center ) http://eric.ed.gov/ERICWebPortal/search/detailmini.jsp?_nfpb=true&
_&ERICExtSearch_SearchValue_0=EJ749459&ERICExtSearch_SearchType_0=no&accno=EJ749459
(which only has a abstract, you have to join to read the entire study) and I'm sure a number of others as well.



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Tuesday, November 8, 2011 7:11 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


"... these are all sales pitches for more money for school and pre-school by groups and organizations that have a vested interest ..."

'Vested' interest - what would that interest be?

It's not like MIT, or the NIH, or the CDC, or any of the other organizations responsible for these studies are going to GET more money for education due to the results of these studies.

So, dude, show me SPECIFICALLY, IN DETAIL where there is some 'vested' interest. OK?

B/c otherwise, you're full of crap.


Oh, yeah, and no matter how you slice it, education provides a benefit.

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