REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

Iran behind 9/11 plot to blow up Saudi /Israeli embassies, murder Saudi ambassador ?

POSTED BY: AURAPTOR
UPDATED: Friday, October 21, 2011 06:32
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Tuesday, October 11, 2011 11:00 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:



FBI and DEA agents have disrupted a plot to commit a "significant terrorist act in the United States" tied to Iran, federal officials told ABC News today.

The officials said the plot included the assassination of the Saudi Arabian ambassador to the United States, Adel Al-Jubeir, with a bomb and subsequent bomb attacks on the Saudi and Israeli embassies in Washington, D.C. Bombings of the Saudi and Israeli embassies in Buenos Aires, Argentina, were also discussed, according to the U.S. officials.

U.S. Attorney General Eric Holder said in an announcement today that the plan was "conceived, sponsored and was directed from Iran" by a faction of the government and called it a "flagrant" violation of U.S. and international law.

"The U.S. is committed to holding Iran accountable for its actions," Holder said.

http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/us-iran-tied-terror-plot-washington-dc-d
isrupted/story?id=14711933




Don't think they've actually come out and said it would be on 9/11, but there were heightened warnings, and this was suppose to take place last month....







" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Tuesday, October 11, 2011 11:12 AM

NEWOLDBROWNCOAT


Was gonna start a thread on this subject. Rap beat me to it.

If the link to Iran can be proved, isn't that pretty much an act of war? AN ambassador has diplomatic immunity-- can't even be arrested. Must be against international law to try to kill one. Oughtta be a crime and act of war against the Saudis, he's their ambassador, and probably against the USA, because it took place on our soil, if it can be proved that the Iranian government was behind it.

Didn't World War One start because of a pretty identical situation?


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Tuesday, October 11, 2011 11:17 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!



Yeah, I was thinking exactly the same, of Archduke Ferdinand, and the start of WW1.

There's so much here that needs to be uncovered and clarified, I don't know exactly what to say at present.




" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Tuesday, October 11, 2011 11:28 AM

NEWOLDBROWNCOAT


just found this under " diplomatic immunity" over on Wikipedia:
Quote:


In Islamic tradition, a messenger should not be harmed, even if coming from an arch-enemy and bearing a highly provocative or offensive message. A hadith attributes this sunnah to the time when Musaylimah sent to the Prophet Muhammad messengers who proclaimed Musaylimah be a Prophet of Allah and the co-equal of Muhammad himself.

As diplomats by definition enter the country under safe-conduct, violating them is normally viewed as a great breach of honour, although there have been a number of cases where diplomats have been killed. Genghis Khan and the Mongols were well known for strongly insisting on the rights of diplomats, and they would often take terrifying vengeance against any state that violated these rights. The Mongols would often raze entire cities to the ground in retaliation for the execution of their ambassadors, and invaded and destroyed the Khwarezmid Empire after their ambassadors had been mistreated.



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Tuesday, October 11, 2011 12:00 PM

NEWOLDBROWNCOAT


Another link from Time magazine:

If it's true, Tehran is pretty dumb.

http://globalspin.blogs.time.com/2011/10/11/hiring-narcos-to-murder-th
e-saudi-ambassador-if-its-true-tehran-is-pretty-dumb
/

Instant analysis, anyone? Tho' it does sound pretty reasonable.

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Tuesday, October 11, 2011 12:06 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!



Plots this big need to be carried out in house, and not outsourced. I just hope folks see the big picture here on Iran, and don't just gloss it over and forget about it.


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Tuesday, October 11, 2011 12:26 PM

FIVVER


An embassy is considered that country's sovereign territory as much as the territory within their borders. An attack on the Saudi and Israeli embassies in Washington would be an act of war against all three. Of course, if I remember correctly, the weird beard mullahs already have a track record of not respecting embassies. Just ask Jimmy Carter.

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Tuesday, October 11, 2011 1:47 PM

BYTEMITE


Why would it be on 9/11? Iran has nothing to do with Al Qaeda. Different sects of Islam.

Not sure what to think, need more information. They say that they're committed to holding Iran accountable, but considering an unquoted part of the article:

Quote:

Senior Obama administration officials said the U.S. currently does not have any information indicating that either Iranian Supreme Leader Ayatollah Ali Khamenei or President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad necessarily knew about the assassination plot and said the U.S. will pursue a path of response that would not include the possibility of an armed conflict with Iran.


I'm not sure it sounds like we have much.

Either we recognize the serious danger of going to war with Iran and we dodged a bullet, or we're making stuff up, and that's why we're giving this some weak tea diplomatic response.

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Tuesday, October 11, 2011 1:58 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Apparently it's only an "act of war" when they actually fight back. We assassinate people quite often ourselves. Kinda whiney to complain when they try to kill us right back.

"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill

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Tuesday, October 11, 2011 2:30 PM

M52NICKERSON

DALEK!


Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:
Apparently it's only an "act of war" when they actually fight back. We assassinate people quite often ourselves. Kinda whiney to complain when they try to kill us right back.



How so? If you are talking about killing Bin Laden or other terrorist there is a bit of a difference.

I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.

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Tuesday, October 11, 2011 2:48 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by m52nickerson:
Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:
Apparently it's only an "act of war" when they actually fight back. We assassinate people quite often ourselves. Kinda whiney to complain when they try to kill us right back.



How so? If you are talking about killing Bin Laden or other terrorist there is a bit of a difference.

I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.



I was thinking specifically of Saddam Hussein, whose murder we played a key role in, since we in fact orchestrated and facilitated it.

Of course, there is also the assassination of Anwar al-Awlaki, against whom no charges were ever filed or evidence ever presented, and who was in fact a natural-born citizen of the United States.

It's idiotic to expect others to obey our "laws" when we show quite clearly how little we respect those same "laws".

Of course, there's also quite a few coups that we've orchestrated and carried out, including the one that put the Shah of Iran into power.

"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill

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Tuesday, October 11, 2011 3:03 PM

RIONAEIRE

Beir bua agus beannacht


Oh Genghis, ...
that to me is the part of this thread that stands out, ...

But in all seriousness, I'll have to know more about this before I can say much on it.

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya

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Tuesday, October 11, 2011 3:32 PM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Hello,

It is most unfortunate and quite condemnable that this assassination was planned.

That having been said...

I will be very disappointed if we go to war because of this incident. I will be very disappointed if we commit military resources to fight in Iran because of this incident.

--Anthony


_______________________________________________

"In every war, the state enacts a tax of freedom upon the citizenry. The unspoken promise is that the tax shall be revoked at war's end. Endless war holds no such promise. Hence, Eternal War is Eternal Slavery." --Admiral Robert J. Henner


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Tuesday, October 11, 2011 4:36 PM

RIONAEIRE

Beir bua agus beannacht


Well they probably know that we don't want to get involved in any more wars right now so they figured they could get away with letting their secrets not be so covered up as they would have if they thought we'd fight back.

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya

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Tuesday, October 11, 2011 7:01 PM

PIRATENEWS

John Lee, conspiracy therapist at Hollywood award-winner History Channel-mocked SNL-spoofed PirateNew.org wooHOO!!!!!!




Funny how this conspiracy theory pops up the same week the Underwear Bomber called Kurt Kaskell attorney at law to testify he saw Hillary "Fast & Furious" Clinton's State Dept personally escort the bomber on the plane, without a passport and bypassing the naked body scanners...



BREAKING: New evidence shows Hillary Clinton masterminded ‘Fast and Furious’
http://www.examiner.com/conservative-in-national/breaking-new-evidence
-show-hillary-a-mastermind-behind-gunwalker


The Big Lie graphic novel
http://truthbetoldcomics.com


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Wednesday, October 12, 2011 4:04 AM

NEWOLDBROWNCOAT


Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:
Apparently it's only an "act of war" when they actually fight back. We assassinate people quite often ourselves. Kinda whiney to complain when they try to kill us right back.



The USA does not kill credentialed ambassadors or persons with diplomatic immunity. Not very damn often, and not deliberately.

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Wednesday, October 12, 2011 5:00 AM

BYTEMITE


I wouldn't say that for so certain NOBC.

Quote:

Professor Solis wrote that while there is no official U.S. policy directive regarding targeted killing, the U.S. addressed assassination in Executive Order 12333, which does not completely prohibit it, but requires presidential approval.[1] That Executive Order, which does not define "assassination", was signed December 4, 1981, by President Reagan, and remains in effect.[2][189] It is similar to its counterparts under Presidents Ford and Carter (Executive Orders 11905 and 12306).[2] It has been construed as relating to political assassination, as distinct from the target killing of military enemies of the U.S.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Targeted_killing#Under_U.S._law

Quote:

No person employed by or acting on behalf of the United States Government shall engage in, or conspire to engage in, assassination.

(....)

As early as 1998, this proscription against assassination was reinterpreted, and relaxed, for targets who are classified by the United States as connected to terrorism.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Executive_Order_12333

All you have to do is be called a terrorist by the justice department.

Much of the rhetoric I hear nowadays about Iran is trying to tie it to terrorist organizations, most of which come across as blatantly false. This one is a little different, I do have some question about it, might even be real, but it does still rely on the word of our intelligence agencies, who I don't consider particularly trustworthy.

Quote:

By the early years of the 1970s, the unpopularity of the Vietnam War and the unfolding Watergate scandal brought the era of minimal oversight to an abrupt halt. The US Congress was determined to rein in the Nixon administration and to ascertain the extent to which the nation's intelligence agencies had been involved in questionable, if not outright illegal, activities.

A series of troubling revelations started to appear in the press concerning intelligence activities. First came the revelations of Christopher Pyle in January 1970 of the U.S. Army's spying on the civilian population[1][2] and Sam Ervin's Senate investigations that resulted.[3] The dam broke on 22 December 1974, when The New York Times published a lengthy article by Seymour Hersh detailing operations engaged in by the Central Intelligence Agency over the years that had been dubbed the "family jewels". Covert action programs involving assassination attempts against foreign leaders and covert attempts to subvert foreign governments were reported for the first time.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Church_Committee

There's also some question about whether the intelligence agencies were involved in the assassinations of MLK and JFK. The United States House Committee ruled they couldn't find enough evidence, but admitted that didn't mean there might not be a connection.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_House_Select_Committee_on_A
ssassinations


And, since I think these might be pertinent and worth posting:

Quote:

The Central Intelligence Agency violated its charter for 25 years until revelations of illegal wiretapping, domestic surveillance, assassination plots, and human experimentation led to official investigations and reforms in the 1970s.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CIA_family_jewels

And the scariest one of all:

Quote:

Operation Northwoods was a series of false-flag proposals that originated within the United States government in 1962. The proposals called for the Central Intelligence Agency (CIA), or other operatives, to commit acts of terrorism in U.S. cities and elsewhere.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Northwoods

That's just for Cuba, mind you, but it raises questions about the spark for some of the recent wars. In the very least, information that incriminated Iraq was mostly falsified.

I am hesitant to trust reports about illicit activities conducted by Iran that comes from our intelligence agencies because I do not want another Iraq.

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Wednesday, October 12, 2011 7:03 AM

PIZMOBEACH

... fully loaded, safety off...


This makes no sense at all.

1) Why would Iran plan this on a Saudi? What's their motive for that?
2) Why this particular Saudi?
3) Why when he's on US soil?

Unless they are trying to provoke? Unless we faked it to have more control over the evidence and our main intention was to justify contingent actions? I hate to see conspiracies but were there no other Saudi targets closer at hand?

I look forward to reading Iranian responses to this.

Scifi movie music + Firefly dialogue clips, 24 hours a day - http://www.scifiradio.com

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Wednesday, October 12, 2011 7:28 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


So far, the "evidence" I'm seeing consists of an Iranian passport.

The guy also had a listed address just up the road a few miles from me, in Pflugerville, Texas.

Does that make him a domestic terrorist? Does his Texas residence implicate Rick Perry in this plot?

Does anyone else see what I'm trying to point out? If Iran is in on this plot, I think they'd likely have a passport on the guy from SOMEWHERE THAT ISN'T IRAN. Idiots act like an Iranian passport points the finger at Iran. In the intel world, you soon realize that when you point one finger at someone, you're pointing three others right back at yourself.

This is "WMD! WMD! WMD!" all over again. All we need now are forged documents from MI-6 implicating Saddam and Niger. ;)

Rappy says no way does anyone outsource a job like this, that it has to be done in-house. So I have to ask the obvious question: Do y'all think Iran is that bad at intel? Are they really that bumbling and amateurish?

'Cause if you think that, then you also have to admit that they pose no threat to us at all. After all, they can't even pull off the simplest of assassination plots!



"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill

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Wednesday, October 12, 2011 7:43 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by NewOldBrownCoat:
Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:
Apparently it's only an "act of war" when they actually fight back. We assassinate people quite often ourselves. Kinda whiney to complain when they try to kill us right back.



The USA does not kill credentialed ambassadors or persons with diplomatic immunity. Not very damn often, and not deliberately.



Saddam Hussein, his sons, Moammar Khaddafi, and his daughter beg to differ. 'Course, only one of that group is still alive to say anything...

"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill

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Wednesday, October 12, 2011 12:57 PM

M52NICKERSON

DALEK!


Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:

Saddam Hussein, his sons, Moammar Khaddafi, and his daughter beg to differ. 'Course, only one of that group is still alive to say anything...



Saddam's sons were the only people on this list that the US military killed. They did so in a firefight, not an assassination.

I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.

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Wednesday, October 12, 2011 1:05 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by m52nickerson:
Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:

Saddam Hussein, his sons, Moammar Khaddafi, and his daughter beg to differ. 'Course, only one of that group is still alive to say anything...



Saddam's sons were the only people on this list that the US military killed. They did so in a firefight, not an assassination.

I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.




All of them were targeted by the U.S.

The raid aimed at killing Khaddafi "accidentally" killed one of his daughters.

Honestly, Nick, you sound like Rappy here, arguing that it's not "assassination" when WE do it, because we don't do that, just like "we don't torture". Doesn't matter what you CALL it, the actions and the results are the same.

"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill

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Wednesday, October 12, 2011 1:25 PM

RIONAEIRE

Beir bua agus beannacht


Well the news on TV isn't talking about it, so either they don't want us to know or they don't think its too important.

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya

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Thursday, October 13, 2011 1:48 AM

M52NICKERSON

DALEK!


Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:
The raid aimed at killing Khaddafi "accidentally" killed one of his daughters.

Honestly, Nick, you sound like Rappy here, arguing that it's not "assassination" when WE do it, because we don't do that, just like "we don't torture". Doesn't matter what you CALL it, the actions and the results are the same.



The key word is accidentally, and there are even questions if those reports are true or not.

Saddam was targeted, but was killed by the Iraq government.

Call it what you want, but there is a difference between killing someone that is legitimate military targets and killing those who are not.

Yes there is a bit of hypocrisy in this. There has to be.


I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.

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Thursday, October 13, 2011 4:51 AM

PIZMOBEACH

... fully loaded, safety off...


http://www.cnn.com/2011/10/12/us/analysis-iran-saudi-plot/index.html?h
pt=hp_c1


Makes the case that this makes no sense for Iran.

""What we've seen unfold makes no sense in terms of Iran's national security strategy," says Hillary Mann Leverett, who was an adviser on Iran in former President George W. Bush's administration.
"There's no benefit; there's no payoff in them pursuing this kind of hit against Adel Jubeir. And it runs contrary to their entire national security strategy."

"Hiring an Iranian-American used-car salesman who, according to investigators, openly talked about his connections to the Iranian military and brazenly made a $100,000 wire transfer doesn't fit the Quds Force's modus operandi, analysts say."

Hmmm... guy lived in Texas... trying to think if there's anyone in Texas that might want Obama to step in it. Or maybe Blackwater - should check their site to see if they're having a hiring blitz.

Scifi movie music + Firefly dialogue clips, 24 hours a day - http://www.scifiradio.com

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Thursday, October 13, 2011 11:10 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:

Rappy says no way does anyone outsource a job like this, that it has to be done in-house. So I have to ask the obvious question: Do y'all think Iran is that bad at intel? Are they really that bumbling and amateurish?




It's my opinion that this not be outsourced, for exactly the reason it was foiled. Adding extra parts to the operation means more things can go wrong. And more folks you have to trust to do their job. Could be that the geniuses were trying to shake things up, and try a tactic that we'd not expect. The Iranians probably thought, and rightly so, that as long as they pay the right price, certain types ( drug cartel types ) would do pretty much anything. These are the folks who behead not just men and women, but children also, to send a message.

Only many HAVE been expecting them to try something involving Mexicans or others from south of the border, either legal or not.

The timing of all this, or at least the revelation of it all, is a bit curious.


" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Thursday, October 13, 2011 11:18 AM

M52NICKERSON

DALEK!


Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:
These are the folks who behead not just men and women, but children also, to send a message.



Iranians? Can I get a citation for that or a clarification for that?

I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.

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Thursday, October 13, 2011 11:29 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by m52nickerson:
Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:
These are the folks who behead not just men and women, but children also, to send a message.



Iranians? Can I get a citation for that or a clarification for that?




No no, sorry for the confusion. I meant the drug cartels. THEY kill, torture and behead folks, to send a message to not F with them.

I mean, sure, Iranians are all down for public execution, don't get me wrong. As I understand it, stoning, hanging or a shot to the head is their preferred STATE method of 'sending a message'.


" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Thursday, October 13, 2011 11:32 AM

JONGSSTRAW


Glad the bombings were stopped.







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Thursday, October 13, 2011 12:10 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by Jongsstraw:
Glad the bombings were stopped.





Yep.

This time.


" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Thursday, October 13, 2011 12:31 PM

JONGSSTRAW


Time for a joint Saudi-Israeli response to Iran's treachery. They handle it locally together as allies, while the US makes nice to Russia and China. It won't happen though, nothing will happen, except Ahmadinejad's speaking fee at Columbia will double.









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Thursday, October 13, 2011 12:34 PM

BYTEMITE


Quote:

I mean, sure, Iranians are all down for public execution, don't get me wrong. As I understand it, stoning, hanging or a shot to the head is their preferred STATE method of 'sending a message'.



Well, we do lethal injection, and about a year ago, there was a guy in Utah who opted for the firing squad.

All people will have their own versions of justice. The bigger problem, of course, is not so much Iran as a whole, but the backwards villages that, say, stone a thirteen year old girl for being raped.

I note that the government of Iran did eventually release those hikers. Perhaps the whole thing was dumb, and the hikers did waste a few years of their life in jail, but they weren't killed on sight. That's something at least.

Eugh and agreement about drug cartels. Sometimes I wonder if a lot of the beheadings we see from Afghanistan have any relation to the drug cartels, I know they're a big presence.

I know some awful drug cartel stories. ._. They steal tourist infants and kids and dogs, kill them, stuff their insides with drugs. Really.

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Thursday, October 13, 2011 12:52 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!



Yeah, but we don't fill soccer ( futball ) stadia full of spectators to watch women get stoned to death for (alleged ) adultery, or a thief get his hand axed off.




" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Thursday, October 13, 2011 1:08 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:

Yeah, but we don't fill soccer ( futball ) stadia full of spectators to watch women get stoned to death for (alleged ) adultery, or a thief get his hand axed off.




But you'd be totally down with doing that, just as long as someone could make a buck off it.

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Thursday, October 13, 2011 1:12 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!



Pay per view, for violent serial killers/ rapists or militant jihadists, sure. But not a public event.


" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Thursday, October 13, 2011 2:49 PM

M52NICKERSON

DALEK!


Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:

Pay per view, for violent serial killers/ rapists or militant jihadists, sure. But not a public event.





I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.

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Thursday, October 13, 2011 3:35 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


" So, when we made love last night...

You're such an easy mark. "


" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Thursday, October 13, 2011 6:36 PM

HKCAVALIER


I gotta say I actually am a little surprised at how our right leaning friends here are taking this story at face value. Thought they mighta learned a little something from Iraq; might naturally channel their blanket distrust of the Obama admin. into a little, well, distrust of the Obama admin. But no, when it comes to high concept international plots against our freedoms, THEY JUMP IN IT.

So the Revolutionary Guard is gonna hire an American with a record (fraud, btw) who sends large sums of money to a drug cartel through the freakin' US Mail from NYC to assassinate a Saudi envoy in this country??? This is how they plan their first attack on American soil in their nation's history? That "plot" has SPECTRE, CHAOS and Dr. Evil written all over it. It's nuts. AND it's a freakin' hero sandwich of all our cherished enemies rolled into one: Iran and the Cartels double teaming the House of Saud and Israel! It's freakin WWF! Can you smell what Iraq is cookin'? But because a pair of suits attest in gravid tones to its validity at a press conference we're talking about how Saud and Israel should handle it? Really?



HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

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Thursday, October 13, 2011 9:28 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


I keep thinking this dude would have been a nobody getting nowhere with his pathetic notions if the US hadn't been paving the road at every single step. I see no coordinated group of people, no large-scale plot, no group-facilitated planning. Just one loser being tempted forward on his folly by a paid informant of the US government.

And now, as if my magic, the US has an excuse to whip up sentiment against Iran. Just like before, when the country we were supposed to hate was spelled with a 'q'.

While Wall St. is going through the roof, Main St. is paying all the bills.

Remember when teachers, public employees, Planned Parenthood, NPR and PBS crashed the stock market, wiped out half of our 401Ks, took trillions in taxpayer funded bailouts, spilled oil in the Gulf of Mexico, gave themselves billions in bonuses, and paid no taxes?

Yeah, me neither....

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Friday, October 14, 2011 12:59 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!



HK,

As Reagan was famous for saying - " Trust, but verify "

On the one hand, I want to trust my govt on matters of national defense, no matter who sits in the White House. And Iran has been basically at war with us since their revolution. So is it possible they could have hatched such a plan ? Yes.

On the other hand, I remember the Left's charges that the Bush administration phonied up the threat from Iraq, and over hyped increase of threat levels, all purely for political reasons. Wouldn't I be seen as a hypocrite, if the first thing I did was to accuse the Obama admin. of doing exactly what the Left accused the Bush admin of doing ?

And add to the fact the TIMING Of this story breaking, when Obama's poll #'s are sinking, the economy is stagnant, there's unrest ( albeit a bit comical ) in the streets, and scandals a plenty. Solyndra / Fast and Furious ,etc...

So, if I BELIEVE Mr Hopey Changey, that there IS a threat to attack the US by Iran, then what... I'm a deluded patriot, ready to shoot first, and ask questions later ?

And if I DON'T believe our Community Activist OF Chief, then clearly I'm a hypocrite and a racist, who really never cared for the safety of our nation, I just wanted free Oil from the middle east.

Damned if I do, damned if I don't, huh? War monger / Islamophobe, or greedy racist. Gee, which label do I allow the Left to throw at me today?





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Friday, October 14, 2011 1:11 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by HKCavalier:
I gotta say I actually am a little surprised at how our right leaning friends here are taking this story at face value. Thought they mighta learned a little something from Iraq; might naturally channel their blanket distrust of the Obama admin. into a little, well, distrust of the Obama admin. But no, when it comes to high concept international plots against our freedoms, THEY JUMP IN IT.

So the Revolutionary Guard is gonna hire an American with a record (fraud, btw) who sends large sums of money to a drug cartel through the freakin' US Mail from NYC to assassinate a Saudi envoy in this country??? This is how they plan their first attack on American soil in their nation's history? That "plot" has SPECTRE, CHAOS and Dr. Evil written all over it. It's nuts. AND it's a freakin' hero sandwich of all our cherished enemies rolled into one: Iran and the Cartels double teaming the House of Saud and Israel! It's freakin WWF! Can you smell what Iraq is cookin'? But because a pair of suits attest in gravid tones to its validity at a press conference we're talking about how Saud and Israel should handle it? Really?



HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.




And yesterday, the UK said - with a straight face, no less! - that there was a "credible threat".

Uh huh. They're doing the intel circle jerk yet again.

I didn't buy it then, and I don't buy it now.

"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill

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Friday, October 14, 2011 1:55 AM

M52NICKERSON

DALEK!


Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:
Quote:

Originally posted by HKCavalier:
I gotta say I actually am a little surprised at how our right leaning friends here are taking this story at face value. Thought they mighta learned a little something from Iraq; might naturally channel their blanket distrust of the Obama admin. into a little, well, distrust of the Obama admin. But no, when it comes to high concept international plots against our freedoms, THEY JUMP IN IT.

So the Revolutionary Guard is gonna hire an American with a record (fraud, btw) who sends large sums of money to a drug cartel through the freakin' US Mail from NYC to assassinate a Saudi envoy in this country??? This is how they plan their first attack on American soil in their nation's history? That "plot" has SPECTRE, CHAOS and Dr. Evil written all over it. It's nuts. AND it's a freakin' hero sandwich of all our cherished enemies rolled into one: Iran and the Cartels double teaming the House of Saud and Israel! It's freakin WWF! Can you smell what Iraq is cookin'? But because a pair of suits attest in gravid tones to its validity at a press conference we're talking about how Saud and Israel should handle it? Really?



HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.




And yesterday, the UK said - with a straight face, no less! - that there was a "credible threat".

Uh huh. They're doing the intel circle jerk yet again.

I didn't buy it then, and I don't buy it now.

"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill



As stupid as the plot maybe that might have been the point. It looks so ridiculous that had it succeeded Iran could have denied being part of it, just as it is doing because it was exposed. Hell, they might have wanted it to fail just to cause confusion.

I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.

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Friday, October 14, 2011 2:03 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by m52nickerson: Hell, they might have wanted it to fail just to cause confusion.



Not anything I'd put past them as well.


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Friday, October 14, 2011 4:45 AM

HKCAVALIER


Quote:

Originally posted by m52nickerson:
As stupid as the plot maybe that might have been the point. It looks so ridiculous that had it succeeded Iran could have denied being part of it, just as it is doing because it was exposed. Hell, they might have wanted it to fail just to cause confusion.

Oh man, this reasoning fairly reeks of conspiracy rationalization, m52. "It's so stupid they must be geniuses!" The plot as described COULD NOT have succeeded. We watch the mails and we freaking watch convicted criminals (guy was indicted for fraud, remember). Every analyst I can find says the Revolutionary Guard doesn't work like this. (Again, I can hear the conspiracy wheels spinning--"That's EXACTLY why they MUST be behind this!") If this loser is the best they could find, then they're no threat to anyone but themselves. It's farcical. We couldn't hope for more incompetent foes.

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

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Friday, October 14, 2011 6:33 AM

M52NICKERSON

DALEK!


Quote:

Originally posted by HKCavalier:
Oh man, this reasoning fairly reeks of conspiracy rationalization, m52. "It's so stupid they must be geniuses!" The plot as described COULD NOT have succeeded. We watch the mails and we freaking watch convicted criminals (guy was indicted for fraud, remember). Every analyst I can find says the Revolutionary Guard doesn't work like this. (Again, I can hear the conspiracy wheels spinning--"That's EXACTLY why they MUST be behind this!") If this loser is the best they could find, then they're no threat to anyone but themselves. It's farcical. We couldn't hope for more incompetent foes.



Conspiracy rationalization, maybe if I was saying that without a doubt that is what happened. I'm not.

The fact that the Revolutionary Guard does not opperate like this points to something else. Yet there is evidence to support that the plot was from Iran. Seemingly conflicting facts. Then you have Ali Khamenei stating that he believe's the Occupy Wall Street protest will grow and bring down Western Capitalisim and that this plot was just an attempt to wag the dog. Might be, but it could also be he is trying to add fuel to that fire.

It could also be any number of other things. We don't know, which is the worst position to be in.

Sun Tzu tells us...

Warfare is the Way of deception.
Therefore, if able, appear unable,
if active, appear not active,
if near, appear far,
if far, appear near.
If they have advantage, entice them;
if they are confused, take them,
if they are substantial, prepare for them,
if they are strong, avoid them,
if they are angry, disturb them,
if they are humble, make them haughty,
if they are relaxed, toil them,
if they are united, separate them.
Attack where they are not prepared, go out to where they do not expect.



I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.

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Friday, October 14, 2011 12:36 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by HKCavalier:
Quote:

Originally posted by m52nickerson:
As stupid as the plot maybe that might have been the point. It looks so ridiculous that had it succeeded Iran could have denied being part of it, just as it is doing because it was exposed. Hell, they might have wanted it to fail just to cause confusion.

Oh man, this reasoning fairly reeks of conspiracy rationalization, m52. "It's so stupid they must be geniuses!" The plot as described COULD NOT have succeeded. We watch the mails and we freaking watch convicted criminals (guy was indicted for fraud, remember). Every analyst I can find says the Revolutionary Guard doesn't work like this. (Again, I can hear the conspiracy wheels spinning--"That's EXACTLY why they MUST be behind this!") If this loser is the best they could find, then they're no threat to anyone but themselves. It's farcical. We couldn't hope for more incompetent foes.

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.




Exactly. If this is the full measure of Iran's capability, we have nothing to fear from them in any way.

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Saturday, October 15, 2011 6:37 PM

BYTEMITE


Quote:

On the other hand, I remember the Left's charges that the Bush administration phonied up the threat from Iraq, and over hyped increase of threat levels, all purely for political reasons. Wouldn't I be seen as a hypocrite, if the first thing I did was to accuse the Obama admin. of doing exactly what the Left accused the Bush admin of doing ?


I believe that would be called logical consistency.

Unless you believe the left here would cry foul, which, I guess they might. But I'd bop them for it, because when a guy who's normally in disagreement is agreeing with you, well, I consider it unwise to discourage that.

Frem doesn't, but he's Frem. He has to be picky about his allies because he's more serious business.

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Sunday, October 16, 2011 2:45 AM

PIZMOBEACH

... fully loaded, safety off...


Quote:

Originally posted by Bytemite:

Frem doesn't, but he's Frem. He has to be picky about his allies because he's more serious business.



... and notably absent... interesting & curious, Occupy Motor City perhaps?

Scifi movie music + Firefly dialogue clips, 24 hours a day - http://www.scifiradio.com

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Sunday, October 16, 2011 4:00 AM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


"Unless you believe the left here would cry foul, which, I guess they might."

If by 'the left' you mean the punditry, they were the first to point out how lame the whole plot was, and how dependent it was on the US government itself for its ability to move forward at all.

While Wall St. is going through the roof, Main St. is paying all the bills.

Remember when teachers, public employees, Planned Parenthood, NPR and PBS crashed the stock market, wiped out half of our 401Ks, took trillions in taxpayer funded bailouts, spilled oil in the Gulf of Mexico, gave themselves billions in bonuses, and paid no taxes?

Yeah, me neither....

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Sunday, October 16, 2011 4:41 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by Bytemite:
Quote:

On the other hand, I remember the Left's charges that the Bush administration phonied up the threat from Iraq, and over hyped increase of threat levels, all purely for political reasons. Wouldn't I be seen as a hypocrite, if the first thing I did was to accuse the Obama admin. of doing exactly what the Left accused the Bush admin of doing ?


I believe that would be called logical consistency.

Unless you believe the left here would cry foul, which, I guess they might. But I'd bop them for it, because when a guy who's normally in disagreement is agreeing with you, well, I consider it unwise to discourage that.

Frem doesn't, but he's Frem. He has to be picky about his allies because he's more serious business.




I didn't buy the phonied-up line of BS when it came from BushCo, and I don't buy it when it's coming from ObamaCom, either. Iran is this year's Emmanuel Goldstein.

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