REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

Despite Solyndra's failure, U.S. clean energy loan program could double

POSTED BY: NIKI2
UPDATED: Sunday, September 25, 2011 07:30
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Saturday, September 17, 2011 9:18 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Quote:

The controversial Energy Department loan program that backed a now-bankrupt solar panel maker could nearly double in size by the month's end.

The Department of Energy has until Sept. 30 to give 14 companies final approval for loan guarantees totaling over $9 billion.

So far the Energy Department has already backed over $10 billion in loans to 18 companies, including a $535 million loan to Solyndra, the solar panel maker that went bankrupt and is now the subject of congressional and FBI investigations.

The high-profile bankruptcy is causing some to question whether the rest of the loan guarantees should be made.

"Taxpayers may be better served by putting that money towards reducing the deficit," Rep. Cliff Stearns, a Republican from Florida, said during a congressional hearing Wednesday.

The companies awaiting funding, detailed on a Department of Energy website, include firms building advanced ethanol projects like Abengoa, ones building solar generation projects like Sunpower (SPWRA), wind generation projects, and a geothermal project from Ormat (ORA).

"These firms are sweating right now," said Dan Ries, a renewable energy analyst at Collins Stewart, a New York-based boutique investment bank. "They are wondering if they will get this money."

Solyndra failure shows rift over taxpayer role
The loan program, set up in 2005 and then expanded after the stimulus act in 2009, is intended to support emerging energy technologies. Freeing the nation from foreign oil and developing cleaner sources of energy has been a major rallying cry for presidents since Richard Nixon.

Under the program, the government doesn't hand out any money unless the companies fail. The Energy Department essentially acts as a sponsor, putting the government on the hook for the loan should the company default.

DOE estimates that maybe 10% of the loans will go bad, and Congress has $2.4 billion on hand to support over $20 billion in renewable energy loan grantees. The loan program is part of a broader energy loan program that includes nuclear power plants and electric vehicles. All told, DOE has backed nearly $40 billion in projects.

Despite the Solyndra bankruptcy supporters of the program say it's working exactly as it should.

"Support for innovative technologies comes with inherent risks," Jonathan Silver, the DOE official in charge of the loan program, told a House panel Wednesday. "Congress believed that the overall positive impact that the program, and its many successful investments, would have on our national clean energy economy outweighed the associated risk."

But there are many who feel the government shouldn't be involved in giving direct loans to companies -- that should be the realm of banks or private equity firms. They say the Solyndra case highlights just how bad the government is at picking successful companies.

But it appears most of the riskiest loan guarantees have been already made. There are no solar manufacturing facilities like Solyndra that remain to be funded by Sept. 30, just power generation projects.

Those projects are "loans that help to facilitate the deployment of wind and solar arrays, with many of those based on technologies that have been proven to be stable and viable in years of deployment," said Collins Stewart's Ries. http://money.cnn.com/2011/09/16/technology/energy_loan/index.htm?cnn=y
es&hpt=hp_bn4

I sincerely hope none go the way of Solyndra, that was an inexcusable farce and I hate to see anything kill the advancement of new technology along that line.

Solyndra, by the way, was a much bigger fiasco than even Raptor wanted crowed about. Once again, Jon Stewart gives us the details, as well as perspective:

http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/thu-september-15-2011/that-custom-ta
ilored-obama-scandal-you-ordered-is-finally-here


As the caption reads, "Solyndra's failure doesn't discredit the entire idea of a green energy economy, but some might take it as a sign of the Obama administration's incompetence." To quote Jon: "Oh, the stupidity!" Yup. Pretty stupid. Pretty ugly. I hope it's never repeated.

Oh, and he had some good advice for FauxNews (and Raptor): "Call your doctor. The erection you're about to have will last more than four hours". Ahhh, Jon. I love 'ya, man!

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Sunday, September 18, 2011 5:42 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Sigh...weekend...nobody around apparently. oh, well, off to do something constructive...


Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off



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Sunday, September 18, 2011 9:20 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


*38.6 billion of US taxpayer dollars used by this administration to create some 3,500 jobs in the 'green industry'.

That's 10.88 million dollars per job.


Solyndra isn't just an example of this administration's incompetence and naive attempt to promote it's political agenda in the real world.

It IS this administration.

* http://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/obama-green-tech-program-that-b
acked-solyndra-struggles-to-create-jobs/2011/09/07/gIQA9Zs3SK_story.html




" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Sunday, September 18, 2011 10:34 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


I'd be curious to know how many jobs the previous administration created, and how much money it spent.

After all, this program was that administration's idea.

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Sunday, September 18, 2011 11:51 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Hello,

I feel it is a mistake to give these loans to companies. The loans should be given to people, so that individuals can afford to acquire the solar panels, windmills, or other clean energy solutions.

If the people are given loans to purchase these solutions, then the companies that provide this technology will prosper.

However, giving loans to the companies does nothing to assure that they prosper beyond the length of the loan.

One type of loan creates demand at the bottom and 'trickles up' money to the companies.

The other type of loan isn't guaranteed to do anything productive.

This same mistake was made before, when money was given to banks instead of to the individuals with the actual problems. The banks made out like bandits, but the individual consumer was often not helped in any way.

--Anthony



_______________________________________________

"In every war, the state enacts a tax of freedom upon the citizenry. The unspoken promise is that the tax shall be revoked at war's end. Endless war holds no such promise. Hence, Eternal War is Eternal Slavery." --Admiral Robert J. Henner


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Sunday, September 18, 2011 1:14 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:
I'd be curious to know how many jobs the previous administration created, and how much money it spent.

After all, this program was that administration's idea.



Solyndra wasn't the Bush administration's idea. They did look into it, but decided not to act on it. It was the Obama admin. that paid over 500 million to the company, before it went tango uniform.


And 500+ million is only a small fraction of the $ spent by THIS admin for the pipe dream of 'green jobs'.


" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Sunday, September 18, 2011 3:24 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Good idea, Anthony - makes sense.

Meanwhile, how many jobs did the petroleum industry create here with their billions in corporate welfare? How many jobs did the finance industry create with their HUNDREDS of billions in bailout money?

And how many jobs here at home were created by the trillion-dollar-plus Iraq fiasco?


By the way, Rappy, the Solyndra deal was initiated by the Bush administration in 2007.

http://www.grist.org/solar-power/2011-09-13-bush-admin-pushed-solyndra
-loan-guarantee-for-two-years


"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill

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Sunday, September 18, 2011 4:48 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!



Looked into it, but never signed off on it. Said it was a bad deal, actually.

It's all Obama's baby.


" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Tuesday, September 20, 2011 8:30 AM

M52NICKERSON

DALEK!


When trying to promote a new industry there are going to be failures.

I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.

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Tuesday, September 20, 2011 9:30 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by m52nickerson:
When trying to promote a new industry there are going to be failures.

I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.



The govt has no business in trying to promote new industry. Especially one which has no real market yet.


" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Tuesday, September 20, 2011 10:26 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Mike, obviously Raptor isn't going to bother to red the link you posted, you and I both know that. So here's the timeline from the article, which timeline was verified by Department of Energy officials:
Quote:

May 2005: Just as a global silicon shortage begins driving up prices of solar photovoltaics, Solyndra is founded to provide a cost-competitive alternative to silicon-based panels.

July 2005: The Bush administration signs the Energy Policy Act of 2005 into law, creating the 1703 loan guarantee program.

February 2006 - October 2006: In February, Solyndra raises its first round of venture financing, worth $10.6 million from CMEA Capital, Redpoint Ventures, and U.S. Venture Partners. In October, Argonaut Venture Capital, an investment arm of George Kaiser, invests $17 million into Solyndra. Madrone Capital Partners, an investment arm of the Walton family, invests $7 million. Those investments are part of a $78.2 million fund.

December 2006: Solyndra applies for a loan guarantee under the 1703 program.

Late 2007: Loan guarantee program is funded. Solyndra was one of 16 clean-tech companies deemed ready to move forward in the due diligence process. The Bush administration DOE moves forward to develop a conditional commitment.

October 2008: Then Solyndra CEO Chris Gronet touted reasons for building in Silicon Valley and noted that the "company's second factory also will be built in Fremont, since a Department of Energy loan guarantee mandates a U.S. location."

November 2008: Silicon prices remain very high on the spot market, making non-silicon based thin film technologies like Solyndra's very attractive to investors. Solyndra also benefits from having very low installation costs. The company raises $144 million from ten different venture investors, including the Walton-family run Madrone Capital Partners. This brings total private investment to more than $450 million to date.

January 2009: In an effort to show it has done something to support renewable energy, the Bush administration tries to take Solyndra before a DOE credit review committee just one day before President Obama is inaugurated. The committee, consisting of career civil servants with financial expertise, remands the loan back to DOE because it wasn't ready for conditional commitment.

March 2009: The same credit committee approves the strengthened loan application. The deal passes on to DOE's credit review board. Career staff (not political appointees) within the DOE issue a conditional commitment setting out terms for a guarantee.

June 2009: As more silicon production facilities come online while demand for PV wavers due to the economic slowdown, silicon prices start to drop. Meanwhile, the Chinese begin rapidly scaling domestic manufacturing and set a path toward dramatic, unforeseen cost reductions in PV. Between June of 2009 and August of 2011, PV prices drop more than 50 percent.

September 2009: Solyndra raises an additional $219 million. Shortly after, the DOE closes a $535 million loan guarantee after six months of due diligence. This is the first loan guarantee issued under the 1703 program. From application to closing, the process took three years -- not the 41 days that is sometimes reported.

January - June 2010: As the price of conventional silicon-based PV continues to fall due to low silicon prices and a glut of solar modules, investors and analysts start questioning Solyndra's ability to compete in the marketplace. Despite pulling its IPO (as dozens of companies did in 2010), Solyndra raises an additional $175 million from investors.

November 2010: Solyndra closes an older manufacturing facility and concentrates operations at Fab 2, the plant funded by the $535 million loan guarantee. The Fab 2 plant is completed that same month -- on time and on budget -- employing around 3,000 construction workers during the build-out, just as the DOE projected.

February 2011: Due to a liquidity crisis, investors provide $75 million to help restructure the loan guarantee. The DOE rightly assumed it was better to give Solyndra a fighting chance rather than liquidate the company -- which was a going concern -- for market value, which would have guaranteed significant losses.

March 2011: Republican Representatives complain that DOE funds are not being spent quickly enough.

House Energy and Commerce Committee Chairman Fred Upton (R-Mich.): "Despite the administration's urgency and haste to pass the [American Recovery and Reinvestment Act] ... billions of dollars have yet to be spent."

And House Oversight and Investigations Subcommittee Chairman Cliff Stearns (R-Fla.): "The whole point of the Democrats' stimulus bill was to spend billions of dollars ... most of the money still hasn't been spent."

June 2011: Average selling prices for solar modules drop to $1.50 a watt and continue on a pathway to $1 a watt. Solyndra says it has cut costs by 50 percent, but analysts worry how the company will compete with the dramatic changes in conventional PV.

August 2011: DOE refuses to restructure the loan a second time.

September 2011: Solyndra closes its manufacturing facility, lays off 1,100 workers, and files for bankruptcy. The news is touted as a failure of the Obama administration and the loan guarantee office. However, as of Sept. 12, the DOE loan programs office closed or issued conditional commitments of $37.8 billion to projects around the country. The $535 million loan is only 1.3 percent of DOE's loan portfolio. To date, Solyndra is the only loan that's known to be troubled.

Meanwhile, after complaining about stimulus funds moving too quickly, Upton and Stearns are now claiming that the administration was pushing funds out the door too quickly: "In the rush to get stimulus cash out the door, despite repeated claims by the administration to the contrary, some bets were bad from the beginning."

What critics fail to mention is that the Solyndra deal is more than three years old, and started under the Bush administration, which tried to conditionally approve the loan right before Obama took office. Rather than "pushing funds out the door too quickly," the Obama administration restructured the original loan when it came into office to further protect the taxpayers' investment. http://www.grist.org/solar-power/2011-09-13-bush-admin-pushed-solyndra
-loan-guarantee-for-two-years
called "getting real".



Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off



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Tuesday, September 20, 2011 10:32 AM

M52NICKERSON

DALEK!


Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:The govt has no business in trying to promote new industry. Especially one which has no real market yet.


They absolutely do to promote economic prosperity. Currently China is heavily funding the greed energy companies there. If we don't companies here will never be able to compete.

I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.

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Tuesday, September 20, 2011 10:36 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!



Only an obamaphile would think that Solyndra is in any way the path to 'economic prosperity'.




" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Tuesday, September 20, 2011 10:37 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Unfortunately, the link Raptor put up doesn't do exactly what he expects. It's WaPo, so slanted, has no timeline, claims failure of the entire green-jobs initiative, but also happens to mention that it "has directly created 3,545 new, permanent jobs". It also twists a bit and is vague on its claims:
Quote:

The Energy Department says that the green-jobs program is still on track to meet its employment goals. It claims credit for saving 33,000 jobs at Ford Motor Co. — about half of the Detroit automaker’s entire hourly and salaried U.S. workforce. The department says the biggest of its loan guarantees, for $5.9 billion, protected the jobs at Ford by enabling the automaker to upgrade plants in five states to build more energy-efficient vehicles. The Energy Department said the loan would “convert” the Ford jobs to “green manufacturing jobs.”

Several economists said they doubt the loan program saved 33,000 jobs at Ford.

“I always take these job estimates with a big grain of salt,” Josh Lerner, a Harvard Business School professor who has written about failed government efforts to stimulate targeted industries, said in an e-mail. “There tends to be a lot of fuzzy math when it comes to calculating these benefits (regardless of the party taking credit for the program).”

A Ford spokeswoman said the loans helped “transform what were primarily truck/SUV plants into flexible manufacturing plants capable of building more fuel-efficient vehicles.” That flexibility is key to “helping retain the 33,000 jobs by ensuring our employees can build the fuel-efficient cars people want to drive,” said Meghan Keck, who handles government relations for Ford.

Note "several economists" doubt the program saved that many jobs, a Harvard professor takes "these job estimates" (what estimates? ALL job estimates?) with a grain of salt because there TENDS to be fuzzy math. No facts, no figures, just spin.

It also states
Quote:

“This does not include tens of thousands of indirect jobs these projects create up and down the supply chain, or the countless additional jobs that depend on America staying competitive with countries like China in the clean-energy race,” department spokesman Damien LaVera said.

Renewable-energy firms say many other workers and companies have prospered by being part of the supply chain. BrightSource Energy, for example, a developer of utility-scale solar-power projects, is the recipient of a $1.6 billion loan guarantee, the second-biggest awarded so far; it says it has purchased goods in 17 states.

Of course, the negatives are highlighted, assumed, expected in the future, etc., etc. I'm not impressed, and I'd lke to see what Raptor has to say about the ACTUAL timeline your link provided, when it comes to Solyndra.


Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off



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Tuesday, September 20, 2011 10:45 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Well, I don't know about nationwide, but here in California, they are DEFINITELY giving incentives to the people themselves:
Quote:

Under the California Solar Initiative, effective January 1, 2007, this rebate provides renewable energy users with an immediate return on their investment. The rebate started at $2.50 per watt to defray the cost of buying and installing solar power systems of 30 kW or less. However, its dropping rapidly as more and more people go solar. It's available to residents, businesses and agricultural enterprises connected to the grid in areas serviced by Pacific Gas & Electric Company, San Diego Gas & Electric Company and Southern California Edison Company.

Solar Tax Deduction

Residents who borrow money to buy solar energy systems can deduct 100 percent of the interest from their California income tax. The deduction is for loans from publicly-owned utility companies, but customers whose utility companies don't offer such loans may be able to deduct the interest of a home equity or home improvement loan.

Property Tax Exemption

Solar energy systems installed in California are not subject to property taxes.

Public Leadership Solutions for Energy Loan

This loan finances renewable energy systems in public buildings, such as those owned by cities, counties, special districts, schools and community colleges. Loans of $2 million or more with no maximum are available for the expected life of the project.

Ooops, further down it does discuss federal stuff:
Quote:

FEDERAL SOLAR POWER INCENTIVES
Solar Energy Federal Tax Credit

Residents and businesses receive a tax credit worth 30 percent of the cost of buying and installing a photovoltaic system. This legislation is part of the Energy Policy Act of 2005 (Section 1336- 1337).

The latest renewable energy tax credit went into effect on January 1, 2009. At this time, for residential solar power systems you can take 30% off your taxes for the cost of the solar power system.

Federal Modified Accelerated Cost-Recovery System (MACRS)

Under the Modified Accelerated Cost-Recovery System (MACRS), 26 USC § 168, businesses can recover investments in solar and wind and geothermal property through depreciation deductions. The MACRS establishes a set of class lives for various types of property, ranging from three to 50 years, over which the property may be depreciated. For solar, wind and geothermal property placed in service after 1986, the current MACRS lifetime class is five years.

Special 50% First year Depreciation Allowance

This IRS depreciation allowance, IRS Section 179, allows a 50% first year depreciation deduction for equipment placed into service. Check IRS publication 946 for more details.

Renewable Energy Systems Improvement Grant

Agricultural producers and rural small businesses may be eligible for a grant that pays up to 25 percent of the project costs. This program grants up to $500,000 per renewable-energy project. Awards are made on a competitive basis. http://www.solartechnologies.com/cm/About-Solar-Power/Solar-Power-Ince
ntives.html
, and here's an interactive link where you can find state-by-state descriptions of tax incentives for renewable energy. It coverse state, local, utility and federal incentives: http://www.dsireusa.org/

So it's being done both ways, for the individual and for companies. This is only for solar, I'm not going to bother looking for the other alternative-energies.


Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off



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Tuesday, September 20, 2011 10:49 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


I love it Nick. Predictably, Raptor takes your statement about green-energy companies promoting economic prosperity (and your very on-point remarks about China) and "negates" it by speaking ONLY of Sonyndra, adding his usual diversion of "Obamaphile", which you are not. Are you beginning to see the pattern?


Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off



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Tuesday, September 20, 2011 10:53 AM

M52NICKERSON

DALEK!


Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:

Only an obamaphile would think that Solyndra is in any way the path to 'economic prosperity'.



Not, Solyndra but the green energy industry.

Face it, our current means of generating power will not last forever. The countries holding the keys to renewable green energy will prosper. The ones that don't will pay.


I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.

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Tuesday, September 20, 2011 10:55 AM

M52NICKERSON

DALEK!


Quote:

Originally posted by Niki2:
I love it Nick. Predictably, Raptor takes your statement about green-energy companies promoting economic prosperity (and your very on-point remarks about China) and "negates" it by speaking ONLY of Sonyndra, adding his usual diversion of "Obamaphile", which you are not. Are you beginning to see the pattern?


Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off





Oh, I know.

I do enjoy it every time he gives up a thread because he does not have anymore talking points.

I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.

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Tuesday, September 20, 2011 10:56 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by m52nickerson:
Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:

Only an obamaphile would think that Solyndra is in any way the path to 'economic prosperity'.



Not, Solyndra but the green energy industry.

Face it, our current means of generating power will not last forever. The countries holding the keys to renewable green energy will prosper. The ones that don't will pay.



Renewable green energy ? You think that we need to invest billions of tax payer money into a pipe dream, or we'll be stuck paying the Chinese for our energy ? Really?

Wow.


" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Tuesday, September 20, 2011 11:03 AM

M52NICKERSON

DALEK!


Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:
Renewable green energy ? You think that we need to invest billions of tax payer money into a pipe dream, or we'll be stuck paying the Chinese for our energy ? Really?

Wow.



Yes, why don't you?

Oh, but it will not be for the energy. It will be for the equipment that makes providing that energy possible.

I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.

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Tuesday, September 20, 2011 11:27 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!









" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Tuesday, September 20, 2011 11:39 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Really, Raptor, you should work on your emoticons...those look like shit. When you have nothing of value to retort, the LEAST you could do is provide some amusing emoticons!

You might want to at LEAST copy a proper image of Calvin and Hobbs: The one you've got is pathetic.

If you don't know how to use emoticons, you really should refrain from trying.



Here's a few you might find useful for your posts:



Please feel free to copy any you might like.



Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off



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Tuesday, September 20, 2011 11:43 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Nick, the thing is the smile DOESN'T fade...he's so fatuous he thinks he's WON an argument even when he's proven totally false and is totally off point and unintelligible. He doesn't care who wins or loses, he always claims he won, and in that way he DID, he got the attention, which is his goal.

I think that's why I keep reminding people...every time someone responds to him, you can all but hear the little "ka-chink!" in his head that he got the attention he needs. It's like clicking on one of PN's links, only instead of getting paid for it in money, Raptor gets paid in the currency he most loves. He doesn't NEED talking points (tho' he can repeat the same few he DOES have endlessly), he's quite content to make outrageous statements and snark at people who WILL reply!


Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off



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Tuesday, September 20, 2011 11:53 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Niki - they're not emoticons, they're images.

wow.

And my Calvin and Hobbs easily out classes yours, hands down.

Give up, while you're so very far behind.

And you have my permission to go back to ignoring me now.

As you were.


" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Tuesday, September 20, 2011 3:14 PM

M52NICKERSON

DALEK!


Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:
Niki - they're not emoticons, they're images.

wow.

And my Calvin and Hobbs easily out classes yours, hands down.

Give up, while you're so very far behind.

And you have my permission to go back to ignoring me now.

As you were.



I know, how about you answer my question. Should be easy since you think it is funny.

I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.

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Wednesday, September 21, 2011 7:52 AM

M52NICKERSON

DALEK!


I'm still waiting AU or are you running away yet again?

I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.

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Friday, September 23, 2011 1:31 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by m52nickerson:
Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:
Renewable green energy ? You think that we need to invest billions of tax payer money into a pipe dream, or we'll be stuck paying the Chinese for our energy ? Really?

Wow.



Yes, why don't you?



Nope.

If investing means Solyndra type cronyism by this administration, then HELL nope.

There, question answered.


" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Friday, September 23, 2011 2:00 AM

M52NICKERSON

DALEK!


Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:
Nope.

If investing means Solyndra type cronyism by this administration, then HELL nope.

There, question answered.



Not even remotely answered.

If the US does not support new business and industries in this country the way China, and other countries are doing, how do you expect our businesses to compete? How do you see us not having to buy the tech to meet our energy needs from other countries?


I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.

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Friday, September 23, 2011 2:09 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Business competes when govt gets the hell out of the way. That's how. You're stuck in the delusional belief that we need govt to lead the way in order for industry to get started.

It's quite the opposite.


" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Friday, September 23, 2011 2:19 AM

M52NICKERSON

DALEK!


Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:
Business competes when govt gets the hell out of the way. That's how. You're stuck in the delusional belief that we need govt to lead the way in order for industry to get started.



How are businesses in the US going to compete with Chinese companies who can sell their products at a quarter of the price because they are receiving subsidies from the Chinese government?

I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.

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Friday, September 23, 2011 8:27 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Ahhh, Nick, you're doing it again. But then you know that...

I think it might be impossible for Raptor to contemplate the idea that other countries have governments that regulate businesses' abilities to make profits, like special treatment, excise taxes, etc. I think he might actually believe that if WE got government out of business, everything would be peachy keen and the rest of the world wouldn't matter. In fact I'm almost sure he does.


Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off



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Friday, September 23, 2011 11:23 AM

M52NICKERSON

DALEK!


No responce yet, I think I broke our Randroid!

I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.

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Friday, September 23, 2011 12:48 PM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Nah, he's not that easy to break. Hard head and all, you know. Nothing IN it, but it's built like a brick shithouse. Dense, as it were.


Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off



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Friday, September 23, 2011 1:41 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by m52nickerson:
No responce yet, I think I broke our Randroid!



Shirley, you can't be serious.


" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Friday, September 23, 2011 2:01 PM

M52NICKERSON

DALEK!


Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:
Shirley, you can't be serious.



Well you don't seem to have a response to my question, how are businesses in the US going to compete with Chinese companies who can sell their products at a quarter of the price because they are receiving subsidies from the Chinese government?

I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.

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Friday, September 23, 2011 2:07 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!



What the hell are they going to build ? Solar panels ? Rechargeable batteries ? Windmill blades ?

Spare me. None of those are worth much if they don't work, or there's no real market for them...


" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Friday, September 23, 2011 2:21 PM

M52NICKERSON

DALEK!


Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:

What the hell are they going to build ? Solar panels ? Rechargeable batteries ? Windmill blades ?



Yes, and more such as the internal components of the wind mills.

Quote:

Spare me. None of those are worth much if they don't work, or there's no real market for them...


They do work. Plus there is going to be a market for them in the future. That is a fact. Fossil fuels are a limited resource. At some point those things you mentioned are going to be necessities. Once they are, or hopefully before if the world smarten up, the countries that are producing that tech will gain from it.

So if we don't help get the alternative energy industry going in this country the US will be left behind.

What do you think fossil fuels will last forever?

I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.

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Friday, September 23, 2011 2:27 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by m52nickerson:
Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:

What the hell are they going to build ? Solar panels ? Rechargeable batteries ? Windmill blades ?



Yes, and more such as the internal components of the wind mills.

Quote:

Spare me. None of those are worth much if they don't work, or there's no real market for them...


They do work. Plus there is going to be a market for them in the future. That is a fact.



OK McFly. Why don't you hop back into your Delorean, zip into the future again, and come back w/ the next 10 years worth of winners for the World Series and the Super Bowl.




" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Friday, September 23, 2011 2:44 PM

M52NICKERSON

DALEK!


Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:

OK McFly. Why don't you hop back into your Delorean, zip into the future again, and come back w/ the next 10 years worth of winners for the World Series and the Super Bowl.



So you must in fact think fossil fuels will last forevery.

If not, what do you think is going to replace them?


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Friday, September 23, 2011 3:24 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


They won't last forever, but they'll last longer than what some alarmists are claiming.

Solar and wind will never be able to run factories. No where near reliable enough. As for electric cars... that technology isn't all that different than it was 100 years ago. Takes energy and materials to make batteries, and oh yeah, what are you going to charge them with ? The sources for that power ? Most likely coal burning power plants. How enviro-friendly is that ?

There's coal, and eventually we'll have to face reality and start using that more. And there's natural gas. Probably no shortage of THAT any time soon.

Just as it was with the y2k 'fiasco', those who are vested in continuing their business will find ways to make it happen. R and D, which comes from those who know what the hell they're doing, and NOT from the Federal govt, tossing mountains of money at the issue, and simply saying " make it happen ".


But as for this view of running out of oil, I actually sounded a lot like you do now, only it was 30 years ago, when I was in HS. I was young and naive, and took up the alarmist view that was popular at the time, believing that we'd be running dry of oil by the year 2000.

The 2nd Mad Max movie, The Road Warrior, had just come out, and it was 'trendy' to buy into the hype, as it was portrayed by the movie. I was saying all the things you're saying now... only we didn't use so much 'green' terminology, and it was global COOLING, not warming, that we had to race to keep from happening.


" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Friday, September 23, 2011 3:44 PM

M52NICKERSON

DALEK!


Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:
They won't last forever, but they'll last longer than what some alarmists are claiming.

Solar and wind will never be able to run factories. No where near reliable enough. As for electric cars... that technology isn't all that different than it was 100 years ago. Takes energy and materials to make batteries, and oh yeah, what are you going to charge them with ? The sources for that power ? Most likely coal burning power plants. How enviro-friendly is that ?



Your right about Solar and Wind, well alone. Now them combined with geo-thermal and new nuclear tech is another story.

I don't thing pure electric cars will be the future. I think hydrogen fuel cell vehicles will be.

Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:
There's coal, and eventually we'll have to face reality and start using that more. And there's natural gas. Probably no shortage of THAT any time soon.



You don't have to run out, or even have to have a shortage for there to be problems. Coal is getting harder and harder to get. As is oil. Natural gas will most likely be the same way in the future. As they get harder to obtain they will also become more expensive.

Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:
Just as it was with the y2k 'fiasco', those who are vested in continuing their business will find ways to make it happen. R and D, which comes from those who know what the hell they're doing, and NOT from the Federal govt, tossing mountains of money at the issue, and simply saying " make it happen ".



R and D will come from businesses. The issue is that takes money. Do you not understand that they will not be able to compete with companies from over seas that are being subsidized by their governments. You have many industries leave this country because they could not compete globally here already. Now add the governments of those other countries subsidizing them, and we lose.

I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.

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Friday, September 23, 2011 4:00 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!



Coal isn't hard at all to find. We have plenty of it. Only much of it is off limits, thanks to Clinton, stashed away on govt owned lands. As are plenty of oil reserves, (ANWR) and untapped fields , in many places.

The only thing China has over the US is man power. Not technology, not resources. Gonna take many players to win at this game, and no one holds all the cards.


" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Friday, September 23, 2011 4:08 PM

M52NICKERSON

DALEK!


Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:

Coal isn't hard at all to find. We have plenty of it. Only much of it is off limits, thanks to Clinton, stashed away on govt owned lands. As are plenty of oil reserves, (ANWR) and untapped fields , in many places.

The only thing China has over the US is man power. Not technology, not resources. Gonna take many players to win at this game, and no one holds all the cards.



Maybe not hard to find, but harder to get. That and it is not going to help the environment. Even if you are dumb enough not be believe in climate change, you still must know about things like smog.

Even if oil lasts another hundred year, do you really think the price is going to come down? You talked about the oil scare 30 years ago, what was the price per barrel back then?

Nice dodge again, man up and respond to the one thing you have not.

How are US companies going to compete against Chinese companies that are being highly subsidized and thus can sell their products much cheaper?

You can't can you? This is a wall for you. It makes you realize that just not interfering is not an option because outside forces are not going to allow it to be.

I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.

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Friday, September 23, 2011 4:18 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Even if you are dumb enough not be believe in climate change...


Yeah, just like Dr Roy Spencer, the late Michael Crichton, and a host of very well educated, informed individuals who happen to view the evidence with a bit more skepticism than those who buy into the latest fad.

We're all just "dumb", huh?

Speaking of which, how did your brain learn human speech ? " man up " ? How the hell old are you... 12 ?

I answered your question. That I didn't cower in a corner and curl up in the fetal position, begging for mercy, seems to have left you w/ the impression that I some how 'dodged' something. I didn't. You just didn't like / expect the answer you got.

Deal w/ it.

Oh, and as for coal? It's not all that hard to find OR get to, actually. We just need to sell the mineral rights to private corporations who are capable of extracting it, and get it to market.

" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Friday, September 23, 2011 5:02 PM

M52NICKERSON

DALEK!


Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:

Yeah, just like Dr Roy Spencer, the late Michael Crichton, and a host of very well educated, informed individuals who happen to view the evidence with a bit more skepticism than those who buy into the latest fad.

We're all just "dumb", huh?




Skepticism is one thing...out and out denial is another.

Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:
I answered your question. That I didn't cower in a corner and curl up in the fetal position, begging for mercy, seems to have left you w/ the impression that I some how 'dodged' something. I didn't. You just didn't like / expect the answer you got.

Deal w/ it.



They will find a way is not an answer. It is just you sticking to your failed ideology.

Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:Oh, and as for coal? It's not all that hard to find OR get to, actually. We just need to sell the mineral rights to private corporations who are capable of extracting it, and get it to market.


Yes, because thinks such as mountain top striping are easy.

Plus you never even addressed the point of pollution.

Or how about way we should let this country focus on resources that, even if not soon, will run out. Why not focus on tech that is renewable and sustainable?

I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.

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Friday, September 23, 2011 5:14 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by m52nickerson:

Skepticism is one thing...out and out denial is another.



If you knew anything you were talking about, who these guys are, or their arguments, you'd know it's anything but 'denial', and instead reasoned, evidence based difference of opinion.


" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Saturday, September 24, 2011 6:56 AM

M52NICKERSON

DALEK!


Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:
If you knew anything you were talking about, who these guys are, or their arguments, you'd know it's anything but 'denial', and instead reasoned, evidence based difference of opinion.



I was not calling them deniers.

I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.

...and you have still not the issue of China and other countries subsidizing their industries and how ours will compete.

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Saturday, September 24, 2011 7:15 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Quote:
Even if you are dumb enough not be believe in climate change...



Then what ARE you saying ? Please clarify, to avoid further confusion.



" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Saturday, September 24, 2011 7:44 AM

M52NICKERSON

DALEK!


Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:
Quote:

Quote:
Even if you are dumb enough not be believe in climate change...



Then what ARE you saying ? Please clarify, to avoid further confusion.



There is no doubt the climate of the planet is changing. The question is whether human activities are causing that change or merely adding to it, and by how much.

Being skeptical of findings and predictions regarding climate change is a good thing. Outright denial of those things is not.

Now please address my question.

I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.

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Saturday, September 24, 2011 8:08 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by m52nickerson:
Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:
Quote:

Quote:
Even if you are dumb enough not be believe in climate change...



Then what ARE you saying ? Please clarify, to avoid further confusion.



There is no doubt the climate of the planet is changing. The question is whether human activities are causing that change or merely adding to it, and by how much.

Being skeptical of findings and predictions regarding climate change is a good thing. Outright denial of those things is not.

Now please address my question.



There is no doubt that the Earth travels around the sun, too. The climate of this planet has been changing for 4 billion years, and will continue to do so, for as long as there IS an atmosphere.

What is your question again? Something about pollution, or resources, or what ever ?


" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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