REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

Dutch rethink Christianity for a doubtful world

POSTED BY: NIKI2
UPDATED: Monday, June 6, 2022 10:30
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Sunday, August 7, 2011 7:22 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Will wonders never cease!
Quote:

The Rev Klaas Hendrikse can offer his congregation little hope of life after death, and he's not the sort of man to sugar the pill.

An imposing figure in black robes and white clerical collar, Mr Hendrikse presides over the Sunday service at the Exodus Church in Gorinchem, central Holland.

It is part of the mainstream Protestant Church in the Netherlands (PKN), and the service is conventional enough, with hymns, readings from the Bible, and the Lord's Prayer. But the message from Mr Hendrikse's sermon seems bleak - "Make the most of life on earth, because it will probably be the only one you get".

"Personally I have no talent for believing in life after death," Mr Hendrikse says. "No, for me our life, our task, is before death."

Nor does Klaas Hendrikse believe that God exists at all as a supernatural thing.

"When it happens, it happens down to earth, between you and me, between people, that's where it can happen. God is not a being at all... it's a word for experience, or human experience."

Mr Hendrikse describes the Bible's account of Jesus's life as a mythological story about a man who may never have existed, even if it is a valuable source of wisdom about how to lead a good life.

His book Believing in a Non-Existent God led to calls from more traditionalist Christians for him to be removed. However, a special church meeting decided his views were too widely shared among church thinkers for him to be singled out.

A study by the Free University of Amsterdam found that one-in-six clergy in the PKN and six other smaller denominations was either agnostic or atheist.

"I think 'Son of God' is a kind of title," she says. "I don't think he was a god or a half god. I think he was a man, but he was a special man because he was very good in living from out of love, from out of the spirit of God he found inside himself. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-14417362


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Sunday, August 7, 2011 8:01 AM

FREMDFIRMA



Hmm, well...

I gotta say that viewpoint sure beats trampling all that is good in this world under ones heels stampeding towards alleged pie in the sky offered by a known liar that feeds on human misery like a twisted theological vampire - I still remain of the firm belief that those pearly gates open to a firey pit and the howling laughter of a blind, mad, god.

That said, ANY diety that would condemn a person for benevolent actions *here*, regardless of the reason for that condemnation, is unworthy of worship or respect - the idea of damning an unbeliever who lived a noble and generous life sickens me, and reduces faith to naught more than extortion.

-Frem

I do not serve the Blind God.

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Sunday, August 7, 2011 4:16 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!



Hard for me to not think of 'The Dutch' from the US version of Being Human...

That's all I have on this matter.

As you were.



( and though the intent on my part wasn't so much to troll this thread, I concede that it may very well be received in such a manner. )


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Sunday, August 7, 2011 5:35 PM

RIONAEIRE

Beir bua agus beannacht


Rutting sellouts, find another job, dear.

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya

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Monday, August 8, 2011 5:36 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Yeah, Frem, pretty much what you said. I just think it's neat that some clergy somewhere are waking up and realizing it might just be bigger than one "god", one "bible" and one set of rules by which to judge everyone. I think that's cool; may it spread and prosper. Dogma rarely doesn't anyone any good, and if the Church were to open itself to 21st century ideas, it's just possible it could do more good...


Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
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Monday, August 8, 2011 6:28 AM

THEHAPPYTRADER


Hey I've got this great idea. I'm calling it dancing, and the events will be dances, only you stay in your chair and there is no music. You can still find a partner and socialize with others in a good natured fashion, but movement and music just aren't essential in dancing.

They've every right to practice what beliefs they wish, but IMO it seems silly to take the 'Christ' part out of Christianity.

As to all this 'condemnation' 'oppression' and the like, it is my understanding that none of us are worthy of forgiveness and eternal life. God, being a rather benevolent shiny type, sent his son to show us the way. We are saved by grace (not by deed) and thus have nothing to be 'proud' of. A true Christian follows our savior's example by forgiving and welcoming others. Jesus showed us that way, and whether or not it is he only way ain't my call nor anyone elses.

Bit of a rant here, feel free to skip it.

Select to view spoiler:


Many of these negative 'oppressor' type traits some of y'all appear to be attributing to Christianity in general, I have rarely seen nor heard of outside the frothy mouths of raging atheists. Sure there's a few Fred Phelps's out there in the world, but that can be applied to any group, religious or not. Even the Baptist are more often just guilty of having too many recipes for potato salad.



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Monday, August 8, 2011 1:19 PM

MAGONSDAUGHTER


Quote:

Originally posted by TheHappyTrader:
Hey I've got this great idea. I'm calling it dancing, and the events will be dances, only you stay in your chair and there is no music. You can still find a partner and socialize with others in a good natured fashion, but movement and music just aren't essential in dancing.

They've every right to practice what beliefs they wish, but IMO it seems silly to take the 'Christ' part out of Christianity.

As to all this 'condemnation' 'oppression' and the like, it is my understanding that none of us are worthy of forgiveness and eternal life. God, being a rather benevolent shiny type, sent his son to show us the way. We are saved by grace (not by deed) and thus have nothing to be 'proud' of. A true Christian follows our savior's example by forgiving and welcoming others. Jesus showed us that way, and whether or not it is he only way ain't my call nor anyone elses.

Bit of a rant here, feel free to skip it.

Select to view spoiler:


Many of these negative 'oppressor' type traits some of y'all appear to be attributing to Christianity in general, I have rarely seen nor heard of outside the frothy mouths of raging atheists. Sure there's a few Fred Phelps's out there in the world, but that can be applied to any group, religious or not. Even the Baptist are more often just guilty of having too many recipes for potato salad.





Actually I have another anology of the dance. You go to a dance and there is an insistence that you are only allowed to do one kind of dance, the dance prescribed by the community elders. You can only do this kind of dance and there is only one song that is allowed to be played. You decide you want to dance differently, but the elders rush at you and throw you from the hall. "That isn't dancing!!" They bellow as they turf you into the gutter. "You have to do it our way, or it just isn't dancing."

I like my analogy better when it comes to religion.

Early Christians believed a whole host of things that we'd find peculiar today, or wouldn't look anything like Christianity. There is nothing pure about the beliefs of Christians, they merge and meld a whole host of philosophies and teachings from other belief systems, including other religions. In the early days, there were many, many sects that believed different things. People bickered over the divinity of Jesus, the relationship of Jesus to God, the virginity of Mary.

The first Council of Nicaea http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Council_of_Nicaeaand subsequent Eumenical Councils tossed around these ideas and produced, over centuries the canon that we know as Christianity today, including what is included in the Bible, the so called divinely produced piece of writing http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Development_of_the_Christian_Biblical_can
on
.

What many people think of as a stand alone work has been tinkered and altered, with books and gospels deleted. And what was included do you think? You may believe the divine hand of a supernatural being guided what went into its current form. Me, I think people played politics in a way that makes the current US debate look like a good natured disagreement. And who won? Who wins these things usually. Not the smartest, or best, or most convincing but those had and used power and shouted the loudest.

Something to think about, eh?

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Monday, August 8, 2011 1:35 PM

RIONAEIRE

Beir bua agus beannacht


If he doesn't want to stick with teaching Christianity then he can get a job at teaching or doing something else, I think that would be the right course of action for him. He could be in charge at a UU church for instance.

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya

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Monday, August 8, 2011 2:44 PM

THEHAPPYTRADER


That is a good analogy for religion Megons, bit my tongue and cheek analogy was meant only to apply to Christianity. The common theme amongst all sects of Christianity is the divinity of Jesus Christ and the belief that his sacrifice grants us forgiveness and salvation, though we do not deserve it. Taking that out is like taking music out of dancing. It can still be a positive exercise or philosophy, but IMO just isn't the same thing. I don't understand it, but they've every right to do it.

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Monday, August 8, 2011 3:20 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


Interesting that people need to believe the story of the NT in order to accept the lessons.

It reminds me of a distinction I came across, which is the difference in following a religion ABOUT Jesus (his divinity, his power, etc) v the religion OF Jesus - love your god above all and your neighbor as yourself.

As for this: Many of these negative 'oppressor' type traits some of y'all appear to be attributing to Christianity in general, I have rarely seen nor heard of outside the frothy mouths of raging atheists. Sure there's a few Fred Phelps's out there in the world ...: what is this referring to specifically?

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Monday, August 8, 2011 4:02 PM

MAGONSDAUGHTER


Quote:

Originally posted by TheHappyTrader:
That is a good analogy for religion Megons, bit my tongue and cheek analogy was meant only to apply to Christianity. The common theme amongst all sects of Christianity is the divinity of Jesus Christ and the belief that his sacrifice grants us forgiveness and salvation, though we do not deserve it. Taking that out is like taking music out of dancing. It can still be a positive exercise or philosophy, but IMO just isn't the same thing. I don't understand it, but they've every right to do it.



Well if you were interested to follow the links that I posted, you would see that there were lots of beliefs held by Christians which were not to do with how you perceive them, including the divinity of Jesus. And in terms of the tolerance of the dance, plenty of christians murdered one another because someone was doing the polka when they should have been doing the waltz.

It seems to me that this church has chosen to follow the teachings of Jesus in how to live your life, without worrying about what happens to you afterwards. Personally, I've always found the philosophy inherent in a lot of Christianity that you live well to get into heaven kind of morally flawed so kudos to them for doing something different.

Granted, its a far reach in terms of being christian, but in terms of far reaches, I'd prefer to Dutchie soft liberals to the nut bags with guns and explosives any day.

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Monday, August 8, 2011 4:09 PM

THEHAPPYTRADER


Quote:

Originally posted by 1kiki:
Interesting that people need to believe the story of the NT in order to accept the lessons.

It reminds me of a distinction I came across, which is the difference in following a religion ABOUT Jesus (his divinity, his power, etc) v the religion OF Jesus - love your god above all and your neighbor as yourself.



I never said you have to believe in his divinity or even existence to follow his example. If you take the divine out of it, is it really still a religion though? This approach just seems more like a philosophy than a religion is all.

EDIT @Megons

I have not checked out your links because I have not made it home yet and am responding via itouch (late work day). Links can be frustrating on this device so I generally only view them on my PC.

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Monday, August 8, 2011 4:14 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


AFAIK both Zen Buddhism and Confucianism count as religions though Zen has no god at all, while Confucianism has ancestor worship as a tag-along cultural value.

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Monday, August 8, 2011 4:18 PM

MAGONSDAUGHTER


Do you have to believe in divinity to be a religion? I'm not sure frankly.

In reality, I know that a lot of people have a whole host of reasons to follow a faith or attend church. Some do it for spiritual reasons, for their belief in the divine. Some do it for the community. Some for the values. Some just do it because their parents did. Personally, I've known a number of people who don't believe in the afterlife or a God as described in the OT or the NT who have attended church and called themselves religious. If I ever go, it's because of the music.






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Monday, August 8, 2011 6:36 PM

FREMDFIRMA



Honestly I think the guy would be better off as a Unitarian Universalist - apparently he's come to the belief quite naturally without even knowing about it, so someone should step forward and guide him down the path he seems to have found, or at least help his faltering steps.

As far as "religion in general" Happy - I am more than well aware, there's plenty and to spare of dogmatic and intolerant nastiness amongst Pagans too, mostly directed at each other and on occasion with actual violence as opposed to New Agers usually holding the line at snark and nasty looks.

Thing is, what I hold against Christianity is the deliberate, intentional, and fully malicious perversion of our Government and Legal System as a weapon of war against those who do not share their twisted little puritan morality, or believe the same ridiculous myths - I have my own unspeakable morals and my own ridiculous myths, thankee, and would prefer not to have theirs forced down my throat at the point of Government bayonets every time I fucking turn around.

That and I really do got "issues" with Christianity in general that do not leave me entirely reasonable about it, having been roughed up, shot at, stabbed more than once and damn near actually burned at a "stake" - which was really just a pole at an abandoned driveway, but those fucking burns were real, who knows what might have happened if not for the timely intervention of otherwise-enemies, grrrr..

Of course, I take people as people, individuals, but as a whole, as a theme - no, I'm not gonna be reasonable or rational about it, why should I be, THEY certainly aren't !

-Frem

I do not serve the Blind God.

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Monday, August 8, 2011 7:54 PM

RIONAEIRE

Beir bua agus beannacht


UU, that's what I said, that seems to be what he believes, so maybe he shouldn't stick with teaching where he's teaching and let someone else come in who fits better with that.

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya

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Tuesday, August 9, 2011 8:03 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Oh, goodie, a real discussion/debate! How wonderful!

Happy, neat rant. I'm so glad you're here to remind us that not all "Christians" are as unchristian as we often see, it's good to have perspective and it gives me hope. I know intellectually that "squeaky wheel gets the grease" and that the extremists represent only a small minority, but they ARE so squeaky that sometimes it's hard to keep perspective and remember what a small minority they are!

As to taking Christ out of Christianity, I don't think that's what they're doing. They seem to be saying he was a MAN, not a god; a very great man, but not someone to be worshipped, rather someone to be listened to who preached some real valid and good things. To me that's putting Christ INTO Christianity, in a way he really belongs, rather than as someone for figurines to put on your dashboard and pray to. I, too, have always disliked the idea that because Christ was (or allowed himself to be) martyred, all our sins are "forgiven" and there is no onus (or not enough) on Christians to actually pay attention to what he preached and follow his teachings.

But as for
Quote:

If you take the divine out of it, is it really still a religion though? This approach just seems more like a philosophy than a religion is all.
Buddhism. However, buddhism is viewed and referred to as a "religion", so, while those of us who FOLLOW it see it as a philosophy, not a religion, most everyone else does seem to view it as a religion. Kind of a question with no answer, as I see it.


Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off



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Tuesday, August 9, 2011 8:04 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Quote:

Early Christians believed a whole host of things that we'd find peculiar today, or wouldn't look anything like Christianity. There is nothing pure about the beliefs of Christians, they merge and meld a whole host of philosophies and teachings from other belief systems, including other religions. In the early days, there were many, many sects that believed different things. People bickered over the divinity of Jesus, the relationship of Jesus to God, the virginity of Mary.
Very good, Magons, and again, important perspective all too few seem to be able to embrace. I also agree that
Quote:

It seems to me that this church has chosen to follow the teachings of Jesus in how to live your life , without worrying about what happens to you afterwards. Personally, I've always found the philosophy inherent in a lot of Christianity that you live well to get into heaven kind of morally flawed so kudos to them for doing something different.
I don't know how successful these people will be, but I applaud them for what I view as what they're trying to do.


Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off



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Tuesday, August 9, 2011 8:09 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Riona, I think your personal prejudice is affecting how you view this issue. I know you are devoutly Christian, to the point of disbelieving evolution, so, respectfully, I think you are seeing this issue through a somewhat prejudiced viewpoint. You certainly seem to show some pretty strong feelings about thie attempt to make Christianity less "religious", if you will.

But consider this: The Church has lost a lot of credibility because it insists on everything being rote, that there is only one "way", only one real "religion", and if you don't believe in it, you're going to hell. Much like the corollary Magons presented with her dance. Personally, I think if a lot of the dogma were taken out of the Church and it was made more reasonable, it would attract more people and do more good as a result. As man evolves (or thinks he does!), the things the were needed to explain the inexplicable become discarded, harder to accept, yet the Church continues to DEMAND they be accepted without question. If the CONCEPTS of a religion are what's important, making it more accessible--given most of us have SOME spirituality at least--might make it more appealing to today's population. As it is, "Christianity" as a religion has been steadily loosing followers for some time now.

Ah, here is someone who puts it better than I could:
Quote:

This Christmas season, 78% of Americans identify with some form of Christian religion, a proportion that has been declining in recent decades. The major reason for this decline has been an increase in the percentage of Americans claiming no religious identity, now at 13% of all adults.

The trend results are based on annual averages of Gallup's religious identity data in America that stretch back over 60 years. One of the most significant trends documented during this period is the substantial increase in the percentage of American adults who don't identify with any specific religion. In 1948, only 2% of Americans did not identify with a religion. That percentage began to rise in the late 1960s and early 1970s. Eleven years ago, in 1998, 6% of Americans did not identify with a religion, a number that rose to 10% by 2002. This year's average of 13% of Americans who claim no religious identity is the highest in Gallup records.

The percentage of Americans who identify as Catholic, Protestant, or some other non-Catholic Christian faith has been concomitantly decreasing over the years. This suggests that one of the major patterns of religious transition in America in recent decades has been the shift from identification as Christian to the status of having no specific religious identification.

In 1948, 91% of Americans identified with a Christian faith. Twenty years ago, in 1989, 82% of Americans identified as Christian. Ten years ago, it was 84%. This year, as noted, 78% of all American adults identify with a Christian faith.

There has also been a slight increase in the percentage of Americans who identify with a religion that is not specifically classified as Christian. Sixty years ago, for example, 4% of Americans identified with a non-Christian religion. By 1989, 9% of Americans were in this non-Christian religion category, the same percentage as today.

Does the decrease in religious identity signify that religion is losing its importance for Americans? There was a substantial drop in the percentage of Americans who said religion was "very important" in their lives between the 1960s and the 1970s -- from 70% in 1965 to 52% by 1978 -- but in recent decades, this "very important" percentage has remained relatively steady. The overall figure today -- 56% -- is slightly higher than it was 31 years ago.

Gallup has asked Americans over the years whether "religion can answer all or most of today's problems" or whether it "is largely old-fashioned and out of date." The majority of Americans over the last 52 years have chosen the first of these responses.

the percentage of Americans who in theory could celebrate Christmas this week as a specific component of their religious faith is down significantly from where it was 50 or 60 years ago. The most important reason for this shift is straightforward: there has been an increasing percentage of Americans who say they have no specific religious identity.

The fact that fewer Americans say they have a religious identity does not necessarily mean there has been a decrease in overall religiosity in America. It is possible that some proportion of those who don't identify with a specific religion are still personally or spiritually religious. More details at http://www.gallup.com/poll/124793/This-Christmas-78-Americans-Identify
-Christian.aspx

Don't you think it would be better if Christianity were less dogmatic about "magic" and more focused on its principles, which might increase the number of people who followed it?



Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off



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Tuesday, August 9, 2011 8:52 AM

BYTEMITE


Eh, Happy, actually not all Christians believe in a supernatural presence of God or the divinity of his son. This guy's point of view sounds to me a lot like deism, which comes from some ideas in gnosticism.

Which, BTW, a number of America's founding fathers were Deist, including Thomas Jefferson.

In any case, this isn't anything new.

Side note: we do have to consider whether this is the jumping point for a secular world religion, however.

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Tuesday, August 9, 2011 10:53 AM

MALACHITE


Happytrader, this guy doesn't seem to understand 1 Cor 15:19:

"If only for this life we have hope in Christ, we are of all people most to be pitied."

For some context, here are the preceding verses...

"If there is no resurrection of the dead, then not even Christ has been raised. And if Christ has not been raised, our preaching is useless and so is your faith. More than that, we are then found to be false witnesses about God, for we have testified about God that he raised Christ from the dead. But he did not raise him if in fact the dead are not raised. For if the dead are not raised, then Christ has not been raised either. And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins. Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ are lost. If only for this life we have hope in Christ, we are of all people most to be pitied.

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Tuesday, August 9, 2011 11:17 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


That's a very convoluted paragraph, I couldn't quite figure it out. What I got was if Christ wasn't raised, faith is useless. That's strange to me, for everything to rest on that one thing. Why would faith, with all the wonderful things Christ preached, become "useless" if he wasn't raised? I don't get the "If only for this life we have hope in Christ, we are of all people most to be pitied" --does that mean that if we only have hope in Christ in this life? Still confusing. Could you explain, please?

I'm not fond of the idea that unless I believe someone was raised by a god, I'm in sin and to be pitied. That's the part of religion I DESPISE, the "unless you believe what we do, you're trash". No, thank you! I don't think anyone is trash, whatever they believe, if it helps them be a better person. Any god who tells me otherwise is no god I want to know, much less worship.


Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off



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Tuesday, August 9, 2011 12:40 PM

MAGONSDAUGHTER


Quote:

Originally posted by Niki2:
That's a very convoluted paragraph, I couldn't quite figure it out. What I got was if Christ wasn't raised, faith is useless. That's strange to me, for everything to rest on that one thing. Why would faith, with all the wonderful things Christ preached, become "useless" if he wasn't raised? I don't get the "If only for this life we have hope in Christ, we are of all people most to be pitied" --does that mean that if we only have hope in Christ in this life? Still confusing. Could you explain, please?

I'm not fond of the idea that unless I believe someone was raised by a god, I'm in sin and to be pitied. That's the part of religion I DESPISE, the "unless you believe what we do, you're trash". No, thank you! I don't think anyone is trash, whatever they believe, if it helps them be a better person. Any god who tells me otherwise is no god I want to know, much less worship.


Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off





You and I are pretty much the same page on this issue, Niki. That's the part of certain types of Christianity (and other religions) that I abhor.

As for what is fundamentally (excuse the term) Christian, here are some variations on a theme.

Deism (Listeni/'di??z?m/ US dict: de'·izm)[1][2] in the philosophy of religion is the standpoint that reason and observation of the natural world, without the need for organized religion, can determine that the universe is a creation and has a creator. Furthermore, the term often implies that this supreme being does not intervene in human affairs or suspend the natural laws of the universe. Deists typically reject supernatural events such as prophecy and miracles, tending to assert that a god (or "the Supreme Architect") has a plan for the universe that this god does not alter by (regularly or ever) intervening in the affairs of human life. This idea is also known as the Clockwork universe theory, in which a god designs and builds the universe, but steps aside to let it run on its own. Deists believe in the existence of a god without any reliance on revealed religion, religious authority or holy books. Two main forms of deism currently exist: classical deism and modern deism.

The earliest known usage in print of the English term "deist" is 1621,[3] and "deism" is first found in a 1675 dictionary.[4][5] Deism became more prominent in the 17th and 18th centuries during the Age of Enlightenment — especially in Britain, France, Ireland and North America — mostly among those raised as Christians who found they could not believe in supernatural miracles, the inerrancy of scriptures, or the Trinity, but who did believe in one God. The Founding Fathers of the United States were heavily influenced by Enlightenment philosophies, and it is generally believed that many of them were deists.[6]

Gnostic systems (particularly the Syrian-Egyptian schools[which?]) are typically marked out by:

"And the Sophia of the Epinoia [...] brought forth. And [...] something came out of her which was imperfect and different from her appearance, because she had created it without her consort. And it was dissimilar to the likeness of its mother, for it has another form.

"And when she saw (the consequences of) her desire, it changed into a form of a lion-faced serpent. And its eyes were like lightning fires which flash. She cast it away from her, outside that place, that no one of the immortal ones might see it, for she had created it in ignorance."
From The Secret Book of John (long version), Nag Hammadi Library, Codex II, trans. Frederik Wisse.[21]

1. The notion of a remote, supreme monadic divinity, source - this figure is known under a variety of names, including 'Pleroma' (fullness, totality) and 'Bythos' (depth, profundity);
2. The introduction by emanation of further divine beings known as Aeons, which are nevertheless identifiable as aspects of the God from which they proceeded; the progressive emanations are often conceived metaphorically as a gradual and progressive distancing from the ultimate source, which brings about an instability in the fabric of the divine nature;
3. The introduction of a distinct creator God or demiurge, which is an illusion and a later emanation from the single monad or source. This second God is a lesser and inferior or false God. This creator god is commonly referred to as the demiourgós (a technical term literally denoting a public worker the Latinized form of Greek demiourgos, d?µ???????, hence "ergon or energy", "public God or skilled worker" "false God" or "God of the masses"), used in the Platonist tradition.[22]
The gnostic demiurge bears resemblance to figures in Plato's Timaeus and Republic. In the former, the demiourgós is a central figure, a benevolent creator of the universe who works to make the universe as benevolent as the limitations of matter will allow; in the latter, the description of the leontomorphic 'desire' in Socrates' model of the psyche bears a resemblance to descriptions of the demiurge as being in the shape of the lion; the relevant passage of The Republic was found within a major gnostic library discovered at Nag Hammadi,[23] wherein a text existed describing the demiurge as a 'lion-faced serpent'.[21]
Elsewhere, this figure is called 'Ialdabaoth',[21] 'Samael' (Aramaic: sæm?a-'el, 'blind god') or 'Saklas' (Syriac: sækla, 'the foolish one'), who is sometimes ignorant of the superior God, and sometimes opposed to it; thus in the latter case he is correspondingly malevolent.
The demiurge typically creates a group of co-actors named 'Archons', who preside over the material realm and, in some cases, present obstacles to the soul seeking ascent from it;[21]

[The demiurge] is blind; because of his power and his ignorance and his arrogance he said, with his power, "It is I who am God; there is none apart from me." When he said this, he sinned against the entirety. And this speech got up to incorruptibility; then there was a voice that came forth from incorruptibility, saying, "You are mistaken, Samael" - which is, "god of the blind."
From The Hypostasis of the Archons or The Reality of the Rulers, Nag Hammadi Library, Codex II, trans. Bentley Layton.[24]

* The estimation of the world, owing to the above, as flawed or a production of 'error' but possibly good as its constituent material might allow.[25] This world is typically an inferior simulacrum of a higher-level reality or consciousness. The inferiority may be compared to the technical inferiority of a painting, sculpture, or other handicraft to the thing(s) of which those crafts are supposed to be a representation. In certain other cases it takes on a more ascetic tendency to view material existence, negatively. Which then becomes more extreme when materiality, and the human body, is perceived as evil and constrictive, a deliberate prison for its inhabitants;
* The explanation of this state through the use of a complex mythological-cosmological drama in which a divine element 'falls' into the material realm and lodges itself within certain human beings; from here, it may be returned to the divine realm through a process of awakening (leading towards salvation). The salvation of the individual thus mirrors a concurrent restoration of the divine nature; a central Gnostic innovation was to elevate individual redemption to the level of a cosmically significant event.

Jehovah's Witnesses are best known for their door-to-door preaching, distribution of literature such as The Watchtower and Awake!, and for their refusal of military service and blood transfusions. They consider use of the name Jehovah vital for proper worship. They reject Trinitarianism, inherent immortality of the soul, and hellfire, which they consider to be unscriptural doctrines. They do not observe Christmas, Easter, birthdays, or other holidays and customs they consider to have pagan origins incompatible with Christianity. Adherents commonly refer to their body of beliefs as "the truth" and consider themselves to be "in the truth".[14] Jehovah's Witnesses consider secular society to be morally corrupt and under the influence of Satan, and limit their social interaction with non-Witnesses.

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Tuesday, August 9, 2011 12:50 PM

BYTEMITE


Gnosticism is some really occult stuff (in the meaning of obscure, the same way kabbalah is obscure and occult).

What I was meaning particularly here is that in gnosticism there is a belief that the soul itself, even human souls, are divine, and that humanity is in this sense god-like or can become LIKE god. It's the shell that the souls are trapped in that is flawed, and those shells were created by something called the Demiurge. The Demiurge was a false reflection of a part of god called Sophia, and Jesus was her true reflection.

Deism also has a belief that the human soul is or can become divine, and it's not exactly unsupported in either the new or old testiment. And there's also belief systems that interpret quite a bit of the references to a heaven or afterlife as metaphorical.

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Tuesday, August 9, 2011 7:36 PM

RIONAEIRE

Beir bua agus beannacht


Yeah, I've heard that many of the founding fathers were Deists.

Niki yeah I'm a bit prejudiced on this issue. I don't think one's beliefs should be based on a popularity contest, sounds too much like high school for my liking, I'm done with high school after all and don't want the world to go back there. I think its important to be honest about what you believe, I think its good for people, when they take these surveys to be forthright, how they choose to believe is their choice and the more categories we offer on those surveys the better we understand how people believe. I think the religeon box should be left blank for people to write their belief system of choice in, though using as few words as possible is preferred.

So back in the day everyone thought the world was flat, does that mean that if you believe its round you should just dull that down because "everyone else is doing it?". Note that I'm using that as an example in content only, back then you sort of had to try and conform if you wanted to stick around in life. What I mean is that people shouldn't just dumb down what they believe to look more fashionable or to look cooler or to be more popular, back to my high school reference.

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya

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Tuesday, August 9, 2011 7:59 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


That whole Corinthians thing ... it wasn't was Jesus said. It was about Jesus.

I can see how some people need to believe in the divinity of Jesus in order to accept the teachings, either b/c without it he's just some dude saying stuff and what makes him so special; or b/c in order to be good now they need to think they will be rewarded later; or b/c without god underpinning the universe existence is too inhuman and chaotic.

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Tuesday, August 9, 2011 8:37 PM

MAGONSDAUGHTER


Yeah those crazy Corinthians and their fancy columns....

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Wednesday, August 10, 2011 6:50 AM

MALACHITE


Hope this isn't a double post...

1Kiki: You mentioned something about Corinthians lacking validity in some way because it was about Jesus and not what he said. To that I would say, we are reliant on the New Testament authors for Jesus' quotes as well as his life events (meaning, it could all lack validity, because it could all be made up -- even his quotes. Why doubt one thing but not the other?) In addition, 1st Corinthians was written before several of the gospels (which contain most of Jesus' quotes) were written. Even if it was "about Jesus", it is still a foundational book for the formation of Christianity and tries to flesh out the theological underpinnings of Christ's existence. Paul's reason for writing to the Corinthians was not to write an eyewitness account of Jesus' life. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Epistle_to_the_Corinthians Paul does discuss several ideas that Jesus talked about though.

Quote:

Originally posted by Niki2:
That's a very convoluted paragraph, I couldn't quite figure it out. What I got was if Christ wasn't raised, faith is useless. That's strange to me, for everything to rest on that one thing. Why would faith, with all the wonderful things Christ preached, become "useless" if he wasn't raised? I don't get the "If only for this life we have hope in Christ, we are of all people most to be pitied" --does that mean that if we only have hope in Christ in this life? Still confusing. Could you explain, please?

I'm not fond of the idea that unless I believe someone was raised by a god, I'm in sin and to be pitied. That's the part of religion I DESPISE, the "unless you believe what we do, you're trash". No, thank you! I don't think anyone is trash, whatever they believe, if it helps them be a better person. Any god who tells me otherwise is no god I want to know, much less worship.



Niki, I agree the paragraph is awkwardly written. I think you are getting the jist of it, but I will try to flesh it out. Remember that this was written to a fledgling church that was still trying to figure out how to apply what Christ had taught.

Let me start with some background. Christianity built upon Judaism as its foundation and claims to be the fullfillment of Jewish Law. It starts with the same premise, that mankind is not perfect, that we are not only not able to love perfectly, but also actually deliberately choose to defy what God wants of us (starting with Adam and Eve). As a result, there is a gap between God and man, that no amount of good works can compensate for (because no one is perfect and they will continue to do unloving things as well as good things). In addition, mankind deserves punishment in the form of death for their continued defiance to God and continued unloving thoughts and behaviors. In order to assuage this punishment, the Jews established a sacrificial system by which the blood of animals acted as a substitute for their own blood. A strong example of blood protecting from God's judgment occurs in the Passover story, during which Jews, who were enslaved in Egypt, painted their doors with lamb's blood, thus protecting them from the 10th plague (the angel of death killing the firstborn sons in Egypt because Pharoah would not let the Hebrews go). This system, however, was not truly adequate, however, and really only foreshadowed what was truly necessary to bridge the gap between God and man: a perfect, willing, sacrifice that would last for eternity and cover all of an individual's imperfections (past, present and future). That is why Christ, God's firstborn son, was sacrificed -- to allow the punishment for mankind's transgressions to be properly paid, and create a means by which the gap between God and mankind would be permanently bridged.

Moving on to the Corinthians verse, the apostle Paul is making the doctrinal point that Christ had to be resurrected from the dead (because it demonstrates his divinity and confirms the perfection of his sacrifice). If Christ had not been resurrected, he was just some guy whose sacrifice did not successfully bridge the gap between God and mankind. In that case, mankind would still be subject to God's judgment, meaning punishment for our transgressions and no unity with God after death. Paul notes that if there were no resurrection, Christians should be pitied. Not only would they be telling lies about God, but they are also deluding themselves and living a lie. And, it wasn't even a lie that led to an easy life, because as a result of trying to follow the teachings of Christ, they had to try to live moral lives despite temptation, try to love everyone even if it required sacrifice, and face persecution by other religions and the government.

Getting on to one of your other points, yes, the traditional Christian belief is that the only way to be unified with God is through Christ's sacrifice. Those that deliberately choose to defy God are not covered by Jesus' sacrifice and are subject to God's (not man's, mind you -- man is not supposed to judge...) judgment. They aren't to be treated by Christians as "trash",though, because no one is to be treated as trash -- everyone is supposed to be treated with love.

Well that's enough for me on that subject. Hopefully someone else can address the can of worms I've opened if necessary.


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Wednesday, August 10, 2011 6:57 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Riona, I think you've got it kind of reversed, tho' I take your point. No, I don't think anyone should believe anything because it is the "fashion", to be clear. But IF (just if) someday it can be definitively determined that there isn't a god (how such could be done eludes me), should we go on believing there is just because we want to? Your flat-earth theory is reversed; if the world is PROVEN to be round, it IS dumbing down to say it's not. Therefore, should you go on believing it's flat despite evidence that now shows it's otherwise?

Man evolves. There are a lot of us who believe religion was something humans NEEDED when the world was full of so many things they couldn't understand and needed some kind of explanation for to ease their fears. As we evolved and learned more and more, that need is fading. Nonetheless, believing in SOMETHING is inherent in man, so I see it as a move forward to accept that there is "something" in the world, but to be willing to accept that we don't know what it is--maybe can't--without needing to be part of a religion whose dogma doesn't fit with logic and hasn't changed much through the centuries. From my observations, it seems to me tha the Church maintains so many things that aren't reasonable, it makes it impossible for me to accept it on face value. I don't KNOW what happens after death, but I can live with that and just try to be the person I believe I should be, without any expectation of reward or punishment, just because it's RIGHT and I know what's right; I don't need someone else telling me to believe in a specific way because otherwise I am condemned to hell or something. I see that as evolution in thinking.

No religious dogma all makes sense, pure and simple, whatever the religion. It's logical to me that early man didn't understand why so many scary things happen, and mankind has ALWAYS feared death, so coming up with explanations for all of that is comforting. I just don't need that comfort, and I don't think I or anyone else who doesn't need it should be condemned.

For me, I admire someone willing to have an open mind, to say "for me our life, our task, is before death", and "the Bible's account of Jesus's life as a mythological story about a man who may never have existed, even if it is a valuable source of wisdom about how to lead a good life". I see ""I don't think he was a god or a half god. I think he was a man, but he was a special man because he was very good in living from out of love, from out of the spirit of God he found inside himself" as a step FORWARD, not backward--and all too often I've met "Christians" who don't follow--or even in many cases KNOW--Christ's teachings, but feel self-righteous because they've got it "right". I abhor that.



Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off



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Wednesday, August 10, 2011 7:09 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Thanx Malachite (I MISSED YOU!) for trying to explain it to me. It still doesn't make sense to ME, but I kind of follow the logic it contains if you believe in God and original sin, etc. The sticking point for me is that one HAS to believe Christ is a divinity of some sort; for me it's sufficient to be "perfectly imperfect" and try to do the best I can to be the best person I can, while accepting my failings rather than judging myself negatively on them. I reject the idea that I need someone else to be sacrificed FOR me, because that abdicates the necessity of me striving to know myself and improve. If merely believing Christ was a divinity and there is a judgmental God absolves me of my sins and gains me entry into some sort of heaven, I can't live with that. I don't view anyone else, divinity or otherwise, being sacrificed FOR ME as being connected in any way with the need for me to be self-aware and grow, and while I know many Christians try to be the best person they can anyway, that convenient "out" is abhorrent to me.

I guess essentially through working at trying to be as self-aware as I can (which helpse me understand others and not judge them, as well), I KNOW when I've done right or wrong, and I'm fulfilled by continuing on my "path" while knowing I can never attain perfection. That's something many don't understand about buddhism...few, if any, of us can ever even hope to achieve Nirvana; we don't. It's the path of trying to get there which teaches us and helps us try to keep growing. If I don't HAVE to strive to be who I want to be, and am "saved" just because someone else was sacrificed, it's all too easy not to try. Does that make any sense?

I guess I'm saying that I better understand it now, but I choose to reject it. I do believe in Christ, by the way, but believe he was a great man with SO many wonderful things to teach humanity, just as was Buddha, but no more a "diety" THAN Buddha.


Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off



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Wednesday, August 10, 2011 7:58 AM

BYTEMITE


Man, every now and then I remember why I don't really like the Christian teachings.

But, side note: there wasn't really a punishment after death for Old Testament believers... Or a reward. They all went to Sheol.

It wasn't until Zoroastrianism and the Christians that the faith had a concept of heaven and hell.

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Wednesday, August 10, 2011 9:42 AM

MALACHITE


Quote:

Originally posted by Bytemite:
Man, every now and then I remember why I don't really like the Christian teachings.

But, side note: there wasn't really a punishment after death for Old Testament believers... Or a reward. They all went to Sheol.

It wasn't until Zoroastrianism and the Christians that the faith had a concept of heaven and hell.



Byte: Doh! Well that certainly wasn't my intention... Anyways, in regards to Sheol, here is an interesting link http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sheol which notes the use of "Sheol" in the Old Testament but, at the bottom also mentions that there is some mention of heaven in the Old Testament as well.

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Wednesday, August 10, 2011 10:30 AM

MALACHITE


Quote:

Originally posted by Niki2:
It still doesn't make sense to ME, but I kind of follow the logic it contains if you believe in God and original sin, etc.


If I don't HAVE to strive to be who I want to be, and am "saved" just because someone else was sacrificed, it's all too easy not to try. Does that make any sense?

I do believe in Christ, by the way, but believe he was a great man with SO many wonderful things to teach humanity, just as was Buddha, but no more a "diety" THAN Buddha.




Niki -- It is nice to have a civil conversation about this. Thanks for reading my response and understanding its intent. I appreciate that you were able to understand the premise and the Christian thought process to interpreting the verse even if you don't agree with it. You hit the nail on the head when you noted that one logical response to Christ's sacrifice would be to stop trying to better oneself and go on sinning. The apostle Paul has to reprimand some Christians for taking exactly that line of reasoning, discussing how that is not an appropriate response to such an amazing gift.

As far as Christ being merely a good teacher, he really doesn't leave that option open as he claims to be the prophesied messiah/divinity. That was the main reason the Jewish leadership had him killed (because claiming divinity was blasphemy which was punishable by death). There are numerous examples in the gospels of Jesus claiming divinity/messiahship -- one of my favorites occurs when he states the sacred words, "I am" (which is not supposed to be uttered, because that is how God refers to himself in the Old Testament) in response to the Jews seeking to arrest him. At those words, everybody falls to the ground either by some compulsion or by their own compunction. Regardless, to those aware of Messiah language, this is a sentinal event, in which Jesus deliberately indicates that he is more than just a man (He could have just answered, "Yes", for example).

Anyways, there is an interesting book called "How Good is Good Enough" which discusses the idea of doing good works to earn your way to heaven/nirvana, and noting that is exhausting and futile. It presents the sacrifice of Christ as an opportunity to find peace and rest, getting off of the hamster wheel of trying to prove one's goodness to god/gods/other people/oneself. It would be interesting to hear a Budhist's perspective on the book...

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Wednesday, August 10, 2011 10:57 AM

BYTEMITE


Distinctly unlike the current understanding of heaven, of course, in that no one really got to be in the vicinity of god until later, except for angels.

And those angels were seriously not at all like how we imagine them.

The only person who was allowed in as an exception was Enoch.

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Wednesday, August 10, 2011 11:41 AM

RIONAEIRE

Beir bua agus beannacht


Malachite, you're way better at explaining all this stuff than I am. I too think its great that this thread is a place where we can all discuss this like normal human beings instead of devolving into a flame war.

Niki, I believe that when someone makes the decision to follow Christ, to ask Him to be in their life, He does work on our lives and because we are seeking Him and getting to know Him we are becoming more interested in doing the right things, loving humanity, striving to be our best/to be self aware and wanting to make positive differences in the world. I think they go together in a natural way.

Also for Niki, do you really think humanity is "better" now than it ever was before? Sure we are more educated, we have more experience under our collective belts, but do you think the average person is a more caring kind and moral individual then the average person at any given point in history? If you do then that's sort of a Star Trek view, that humanity evolves out of all its vices. But if you think people are people then its more of a Firefly philosophy, that no matter where you go there are caring people and greedy people and within us there are both sides too. History always repeats itself and humanity seems to cycle around, that's my view of it.

As a side note, Enoch and Elijah were the only people in the Old Testament taken to Heaven and away from the earth while still alive.



"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya

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Wednesday, August 10, 2011 11:57 AM

BYTEMITE


I was thinking there might have been someone else, but couldn't confirm it. Thought it was Ezekiel.

I see Elijah is the one I've quoted before about the amber cyclone.

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Thursday, August 11, 2011 3:51 AM

MALACHITE


Byte: Yeah, I deliberately avoided using the concepts of heaven and hell in my original explanation because I thought it would only lead to more tangents. Thanks for bringing up Sheol though, since it made me look up the Sheol wikipedia article which I thought was quite fascinating. Part of me likes that concept better than the concept of eternal torment for sinners. That being said, part of me does also want justice to be done to those who have done evil and gotten away with it in this lifetime.

You also mentioned current concepts of heaven and current concepts of angels vs Old Testament concepts of angels. That is another couple of tangents that could be interesting. Biblically, I thought angels were pretty consistently represented, that is something that was pretty awe and fear inspiring. In common culture, though, angels are cute, unintimidating and kind of magic djinni-like. Is that the contrast you were making? Concepts of heaven would be a longer tangent, I think, contrasting what is in our culture versus what is in the Bible...

Riona -- Raising the issue of moral evolution is an interesting one. I'm of the opinion that we are struggling with the same issues now that we struggled with back then but it comes out in modern ways -- greed, selfishness, lust, envy, etc. Yup, our world is still full of those issues and so am I... I mean really, why haven't we at least evolved beyond war yet??

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Thursday, August 11, 2011 5:56 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Thanx, guys, it helps to hear things from REAL Christians, and informed ones as well, not those who are blinded by self-righteousness (of which there are too many and no, I do NOT think they're in the majority, by a long shot!). Believe me, I'm WELL versed in the kind who are downright horrible to me because I'm buddhist, and others who just wouldn't leave me alone, they were so intent on "converting" me!

So. The problem is, you're right for the most part, Riona, we're no better, and we haven't gotten past wars. If you believe mankind will always be the same, to me THAT is hopelessness, so I see why something beyond it is needed...but surely if Christianity worked the way it was supposed to, we WOULD be better by now. I would argue that buddhists, tho' some individuals have engaged in violence and wars, don't do it to nearly the extent "religions" have and do. So how has having a God improved humanity? I get that you don't expect improvement and that's why you have Christ dying for our sins, it just isn't logical for me. Far too many use that view to be morally lazy. So, for me, looking inward and being responsible for ourselves has worked better than having a divinity who, by dying for me, absolved me of sin. It's just illogical to me.

There's also my extreme prejudice against all religions in that, once humans get ahold of them, they become power to wield and "causes" to fight over, and create men who do bad things to gain power, or even small people who use that power to condemn others and tell those who look to them what to think and how to behave. And I agree about angels, they, like the cute little nativity scenes, have become corrupted away from resembling anything like they supposedly were.

You'll get a kick out of this (maybe). Before I was buddhist, I was agnostic for decades. Given I lived in a land much like what Jesus lived in atone time, I abhorred my mom's yearly mantle decoration of the creche in one of those fake "stables" you can buy every Xmas, complete with a backdrop of green branches! So I set about building my own "nativity" a few years back--I'm a diorama-aholic ;o) I researched caravansaries, which were most likely near where Jesus was supposedly born, built a miniature one (honest to gawd, out of clay and had it fired and everything), used miniature wooden carved figures we got while in Switzerland (gorgeous!) and bought more when the same sculptor's figurines came out in replicas here in the states, built a cave and made a "REAL" nativity, complete with rocks, sand, a stream and everything. Ended up expanding the mantle, ahem, quite a bit!

I did that for a few years, until I dscovered those little lighted houses from Department 56...then I went nuts for years (and even took over the entire dining room!), building Dickens dioramas. But it was very satisfying for those years I built "real" nativities.

All that from someone who never believed in God or saw Jesus as a divinity. Nobody said I had to make sense!


Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off



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Thursday, August 11, 2011 5:58 AM

BYTEMITE


Quote:

Biblically, I thought angels were pretty consistently represented, that is something that was pretty awe and fear inspiring. In common culture, though, angels are cute, unintimidating and kind of magic djinni-like. Is that the contrast you were making?


Pretty much.

The seraphim are too bright too look at, but they're vaguely humanoid under the fire. They have four heads, and six wings with eyes all over them, a pair to cover their heads and a pair to cover their "feet" and a pair to fly with. Sometimes they appear as large flying fiery snakes. Not that they do that much flying, they pretty much just hang around god singing all the time.

Lucifer and the Metatron I believe may have had twelve wings (Lucifer in literature is often just given six, though). They were leaders of the seraphim (Metatron replacing Lucifer when he fell). If you've read Dante's inferno, Lucifer also has four heads in the lake of ice on the lowest level of hell, and in three of those heads he's eating Brutus, Cassius, and Judas for all eternity. The fourth head just looks sad all the time I guess.

Cherubim are NOT the babies with wings you see in art, nor do they look like adult humans with wings like some depict. They also have four heads like the seraphim, but one is a lion, one is an eagle, one is a bull, and one is human. They have four wings, four heads, four arms, and four legs.

Then you get into some non-humanoid stuff, like the thrones and the ophanim (which were just balls of light).

Regular angels are always male (and don't have wings), and they are called malachim or irinim depending on their duties (messengers/heralds and The Watchers in English). In the past some of them have been attracted to human females, giving rise to a race of gigantic monstrous fallen angel sorcerers called the nephilim.

God himself is described either as the usual old guy on a gold/sapphire/pearl throne, or as interlocking gold rings, or as three differently coloured spheres of light. However, he has a female counterpart, known as the Shekhinah. She mostly just looks like smoke, which makes sense according to her duties, because she represents hearth and home. Burning incense in temples made her manifest. Though God also spoke through her now and then in the form of burning bushes.

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Thursday, August 11, 2011 6:01 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Riona, if you believe
Quote:

He does work on our lives and because we are seeking Him and getting to know Him we are becoming more interested in doing the right things, loving humanity, striving to be our best/to be self aware and wanting to make positive differences in the world
then why HAVEN'T Christians improved in all this time? If it worked as you say, surely Christians would have become better than those of other religions, or better than those who have none. Yet while many strive to do the right thing, love humanity, etc., the majority do not...at least when it comes to good works and become self-aware, from my observation. At this time in history, in this country, it's exactly the opposite for people like Bachmann and many "religious fundamentalists", they are more focused on hate and judgment than loving others. How does that square with what you said?


Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off



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Thursday, August 11, 2011 6:13 AM

THEHAPPYTRADER


Make's sense to me. Have you ever had one of those teachers that would set impossible goals, but would reward and complement you on how close you got to them? Not a perfect analogy, but it's kind of how I feel about it.

My private Horn teacher in college was like that, always setting impossible goals but so very proud of how far I had progressed. On any instrument (though perhaps especially on the French Horn) you can never achieve absolute perfection. Mistakes will be made and there is always more to learn. This isn't depressing or illogical to me, it gives me something to look forward to and work towards. A wonderful quest that will never be over!

Your journey isn't 'done' when let Jesus in your heart and are forgiven, it's only just beginning. That's my take on it anyway.

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Thursday, August 11, 2011 6:15 AM

THEHAPPYTRADER


Quote:

Originally posted by Niki2:
Riona, if you believe
Quote:

He does work on our lives and because we are seeking Him and getting to know Him we are becoming more interested in doing the right things, loving humanity, striving to be our best/to be self aware and wanting to make positive differences in the world
then why HAVEN'T Christians improved in all this time? If it worked as you say, surely Christians would have become better than those of other religions, or better than those who have none. Yet while many strive to do the right thing, love humanity, etc., the majority do not...at least when it comes to good works and become self-aware, from my observation. At this time in history, in this country, it's exactly the opposite for people like Bachmann and many "religious fundamentalists", they are more focused on hate and judgment than loving others. How does that square with what you said?


Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off





Her quote only applies to those who are seeking Him and getting to know Him. Unfortunately, this may not apply to everyone you identify as Christian, or even those who identify themselves as such.

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Thursday, August 11, 2011 6:49 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Okay, Mal, as to your post in "my" purple : I never have trouble with civil discourse with people of other religions if they don't get head up that I'm buddhist or don't believe as they do. Unfortunately, the latter has been true for me all too often, so it's pleasant for me, too, to be able to converse on the subject.

As to whether Christ was a great teacher or a divinity, I'll posit this: Take an intelligent, compassionate pereson who sees things as they really are and the potential of humans, and has a lot to impart that they might find helpful in living their lives. Would it not be logical to this person that, if he were a diety (in those times of ignorance), people would listen to him and might take what he has to offer to heart more than if he put himself forth as just a human? I think it would, and I can easily see that occurring to him, and the result was exactly that. So what Christ said or didn't say about himself (mind you, I definitely don't think he did it out of self-agrandizement or any negative desire) doesn't make it so; plus there is te problem that everything written about Christ is written by HUMANS, something with which I've always had a problem.

I've got to lean on some who can explain it better than I to describe what I believe as a buddhist and what buddhism is about:
Quote:

Buddha formulated his teaching in a way that directly addresses the critical problem at the heart of human existence -- the problem of suffering -- and does so without reliance upon the myths and mysteries so typical of religion. He further promises that those who follow his teaching to its end will realize here and now the highest happiness and peace. All other concerns apart from this, such as theological dogmas, metaphysical subtleties, rituals and rules of worship, the Buddha waves aside as irrelevant to the task at hand, the mind's liberation from its bonds and fetters.

This pragmatic thrust of the Dharma is clearly illustrated by the main formula into which the Buddha compressed his program of deliverance, namely, the Four Noble Truths:

(1) the noble truth that life involves suffering
(2) the noble truth that suffering arises from craving
(3) the noble truth that suffering ends with the removal of craving
(4) the noble truth that there is a way to the end of suffering.

The Buddha not only makes suffering and release from suffering the focus of his teaching, but he deals with the problem of suffering in a way that reveals extraordinary psychological insight. He traces suffering to its roots within our minds, first to our craving and clinging, and then a step further back to ignorance, a primordial unawareness of the true nature of things. Since suffering arises from our own minds, the cure must be achieved within our minds, by dispelling our defilements and delusions with insight into reality. The beginning point of the Buddha's teaching is the unenlightened mind, in the grip of its afflictions, cares, and sorrows; the end point is the enlightened mind, blissful, radiant, and free.

To bridge the gap between the beginning and end points of his teaching, the Buddha offers a clear, precise, practicable path made up of eight factors. This of course is the Noble Eightfold Path. The path begins with (1) right view of the basic truths of existence, and (2) right intention to undertake the training. It then proceeds through the three ethical factors of (3) right speech, (4) right action, and (5) right livelihood, to the three factors pertaining to meditation and mental development: (6) right effort, (7) right mindfulness, and (8) right concentration. When all eight factors of the path are brought to maturity, the disciple penetrates with insight the true nature of existence

The methodological characteristics of the Buddha's teaching follow closely from its aim. One of its most attractive features, closely related to its psychological orientation, is its emphasis on self-reliance. For the Buddha, the key to liberation is mental purity and correct understanding, and thus he rejects the idea that we can gain salvation by leaning on anyone else. The Buddha does not claim any divine status for himself, nor does he profess to be a personal savior. He calls himself, rather, a guide and teacher, who points out the path the disciple must follow.

Since wisdom or insight is the chief instrument of emancipation, the Buddha always asked his disciples to follow him on the basis of their own understanding, not from blind obedience or unquestioning trust. He invites inquirers to investigate his teaching, to examine it in the light of their own reason and intelligence. The Dharma or Teaching is experiential, something to be practiced and seen, not a verbal creed to be merely believed.

I won't bore you with more than that, sorry it's so long but it pretty much encompasses the basics.

So. To put that in the context of
Quote:

the idea of doing good works to earn your way to heaven/nirvana, and noting that is exhausting and futile. It presents the sacrifice of Christ as an opportunity to find peace and rest, getting off of the hamster wheel of trying to prove one's goodness to god/gods/other people/oneself.
Okay, first off, nirvana isn't heaven; it's a state of mind here on earth. The idea of buddhism isn't to "earn" our way to nirvana, it is that by following the path, it is the learning itself which we do on the path which hopefully benefits us and the world around us. Essentially nobody actually attains nirvana (except maybe buddha). The idea of doing good works is simply because they're good, not for any reward but because it's right to do them. No hamster wheel or proving, and doing good works certainly doesn't "prove" anything to anyone, including ourselves. The idea of buddhism is to be responsible for nobody but ourselves; there is no preaching and following the path doesn't "prove" anything to ourselves, it merely brings joy by the doing.

One of the things I love about buddhism is that temple contains no preaching; the monk tells a story, usually told with humor and self-deprecation. As the story unfolds (it can be about anything), we begin to see something which helps us learn about ourselves and man. We don't have to follow anything, it's just a tool to help us better understand. As to loving ourselves and mankind, it's more about ACCEPTING, which allows us to better understand that nobody's perfect, and come to love and accept others just as we do ourselves. No buddhist is any better than any other; we are all fallible humans, that's okay, and we are all on our paths. We can go forward, we can go backward, or we can stand still, it's up to us. Yes, going forward gives a sense of satisfaction, but there is no "goal" except to be able to see truth and the reality of things. All modes of existence within samsara reveal themselves as flawed, stamped with the mark of imperfection. They are unable to offer a stable, secure happiness and peace, and thus cannot deliver a final solution to the problem of suffering. "All things are impermanent", in other words, suffering can be solved, but only briefly, it is part of life. It is the striving, in just living everyday life, which improves our view of ourselves, others and the world.

That's the other thing about the lack of preaching. The idea behind buddhism is we're only responsible for ourselves, so the only thing we can "teach" anyone is what they might take away from seeing how we live our lives, then deciding on their own that they might want to follow their own paths. Condemnation and judgment aren't part of it. We're actually not supposed to tell others in depth about buddhism unless asked three times, so we can know someone is actually interested, not just casually curious. No prosletyzing, the only way is to live life with "right thought", which others might wish to follow by example.

Gawd, I'm rambling. It's so difficult to put it all out there concisely, just as if you were trying to explain Christianity concisely; it can't be done.

You can see how buddhism isn't a "religion" but a philosophy. Unfortunately it gets dumped with religions because that's how people see it from the outside, so we're stuck with it being viewed that way. But we have no gods, divinities, angels or anything else; just humans trying to learn.

Okay, I'll quit now. I was TRYING to explain that in buddhism, there is no "earning" or "proving", the doing by itself brings peace, and the recognition that all humans are flawed and how WE are flawed brings love and acceptance. What you described as "craving" is what we seek to avoid; "striving" to attain something permanent which we crave. It isn't possible, and IS the cause if suffering, just as you described, and IS exhausting and futile. Of course, being me I repeat, over-explain and ramble on, but that's a flaw I can accept in myself.


Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off



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Thursday, August 11, 2011 7:03 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


I get that, Happy. But surely SOME forward movement would have taken place in all the millenia and given how many Christians there are on earth, wouldn't it? To me, believing man is inherently flawed and we have to accept that, so the only way to find absolution is to accept that someone else's sacrifice "saves" us is what's futile. It means we are doomed to futile lives unless we worship God and accept Christ as a divinity. As you said, for me that makes it all to easy to live falsely, and humans are all too vulnerable to laziness. Certainly the same can be said of buddhism; if we choose not to move forward on our path, it's no better than the Christian who just uses Christ's divinity to believe they're saved. But buddhism puts the onus on US to become self-aware, to know ourselves and learn to accept others as we learn to accept ourselves, thereby being (I believe) less vulnerable to judgment and condemnation.

In so many ways, like all "religions", the two have the same goal, to be the best person we can, it just bothers me that Christianity gives people an "out"; they can be whatever they want and still know that by accepting Christ and worshiping God they can get to heaven. Buddhism to me is its own reward, acceptance of ourselves and others is sufficient, and there is no heaven to strive toward or be held out as the finite reward.

I don't kow if I'm explaining at all well, all religions are complex and so is buddhism. I suppose to me it's better not to lean on anyone or anything else to judge me; if we are self-aware, we know what's right and wrong, and that brings its own peace.


Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off



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Thursday, August 11, 2011 7:08 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Quote:

On any instrument (though perhaps especially on the French Horn) you can never achieve absolute perfection. Mistakes will be made and there is always more to learn. This isn't depressing or illogical to me, it gives me something to look forward to and work towards. A wonderful quest that will never be over!
Bingo, Happy! If you take learning like that, it's its own reward; if you believe you can become perfect, it becomes a craving.

Those who believe the journey is just beginning and who LIVE that philosophy are what I consider REAL Christians, and that's one of the ways in which Christianity and buddhism are the same. The difference I guess is that for us, the journey is all and there is no "forgiving" or heaven at the end, and there is no 'out' that we're saved just by believing (or, in too many cases, by worshipping without living our faith).


Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off



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Thursday, August 11, 2011 7:17 AM

THEHAPPYTRADER


Quote:

As you said, for me that makes it all to easy to live falsely, and humans are all too vulnerable to laziness. Certainly the same can be said of buddhism; if we choose not to move forward on our path, it's no better than the Christian who just uses Christ's divinity to believe they're saved. But buddhism puts the onus on US to become self-aware


On my way out so not much time for a reply, but you do realize Christians have some what if an onus too don't you? The whole repentance thing isn't just a get out of jail free card, there's kind of a commitment to do the best you can to follow Jesus's example, loving and helping others and the like.

Maybe if Christians lived for 2,000 years they would be a little better by now, but people die and new people have to start their paths at the beginning too. I wish I could have started my journey with the wisdom of my grandfather, but the best I can do is learn from his example as I find my own way (with God's assistance).

This was written in a hurry cause I won't be back till very late. I apologize if it sounds too rude or snarky, I mean no personal offense.

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Thursday, August 11, 2011 8:07 AM

RIONAEIRE

Beir bua agus beannacht


I think Happy's right, because we don't live for a thousand years each new person who makes the committment to follow God starts at the beginning, its kind of like how we as humans aren't born with the knowledge of our parents, we have to figure things out anew. And like Happy said there are a lot of people who call themselves Christians, because they go to church, or because they were born in a town where lots of people are so they just say they are too. I don't believe someone is really a Christian unless they've asked Christ to be in their life and so forth. James chapter 2 in the Bible talks a lot about faith and works, how if someone is truly trying to follow Christ then they should be making choices in life and what they do that glorify him, like helping others, trying not to condemn others, understanding ourselves, caring about people around us etc.

Niki, I think those are some good explanations of your beliefs. I'm curious as to how much the teachings have altered since their inception, I ask because I suspect that in the past things were more literally viewed in regard to things like reincarnation and such, even if that's not something you guys really think as much about now.

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya

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Thursday, August 11, 2011 8:21 AM

BYTEMITE


In some defense of Christianity, while I myself have met many uncharitable, domineering, and self-righteous types who some to think God exists to grant only their selfish prayers, there is a popular belief that even Christians go to hell. And not just Christians from other sects, but ones who have actually been bad.

The sacrifice thing doesn't exonerate ALL sins, just original sin, which is carried through the paternal lineage. So Christians are supposed to try to still tow the line and not commit too many other sins. And that does take some self-reflection... If you're doing it right. It at least attempts to make someone recognize what their flaws are and when they've wronged someone.

Sometimes. Just as many people use it to try to treat other people like garbage.

There's also the virtues, which people can practice to gain plus signs by their name in the pearly gate's guest list.

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Thursday, August 11, 2011 8:32 AM

BYTEMITE


On the other hand, being in Utah, I sometimes hear a lot of churchy talk just on the street, and I do have pet peeves.

1) In response to a tragedy, survivors are sometimes heard to say "God saved us" or "God blessed us." So, what, the other people who didn't survive were evil so he smote them?

Yeah, god saved my mom all right. He also gave her great big honkin' brain tumours multiple times in her life. Was he punishing her, but changed his mind? This popular phrase has major unfortunate implications, people, it has got to go.

2) "We owe our lives to Jesus."

No! Guys, if he died for you, he died for the people who were LIVING and for future generations. If you want to follow Jesus' example, don't "owe" your lives to only him and yourself, owe your life to everyone and get out there and do GOOD.

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Thursday, August 11, 2011 11:28 AM

RIONAEIRE

Beir bua agus beannacht


There is a sect of Christians, I had a good friend in my girlhood who belonged to this school of thought, that believes that every time you sin you lose your salvation and you're humped until you get saved again ... and again and again. I don't subscribe to that view, because anyone who thinks they go a long time without sinning is kidding themselves and not me. I mean lets be realistic people, I screw up all the time, if not in my actions than in my thoughts, so saying you don't sin very often is total pridefullness, which last tiem I checked is a sin, so you better ask Christ to save you again or else. Sorry, I just feel bad for these folk.
I believe that so much of my relationship with God is based on trusting Him and I don't think I'd have much trust in him if I was always worrying about that. But some people do believe that way and that's their right. I only mention that because of Byte's comments above about hell.

I think that as people we need to be careful about what we ascribe to God. I think its very inflamatory to say that someone died because God was punishing them, that isn't our place to say and life happens, people die, maybe that person had already finished all the things they needed to do here for the world, it isn't my place to judge that. So I try to stay away from judgemental statements like that. If someone is rescued from death in a miraculous way though I do indeed feel that God helped, often through someone who was there rescuing the person. I'm glad I'm alive and here though, no matter how hard things get I love being alive and here.

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya

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