REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

OMIGAWD, The House passed it! We are soooo screwed...

POSTED BY: NIKI2
UPDATED: Thursday, August 4, 2011 12:57
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Monday, August 1, 2011 2:07 PM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


vRead it and weeped. Our country has been shafted.
Quote:

NEW YORK (CNNMoney) -- There's plenty in it for everyone to hate.

On Monday evening, in a vote of 269 to 161, the Republican-led House passed the deal finalized 24 hours earlier by congressional leaders and the White House.

The Democratic-led Senate is expected to vote on the bill Tuesday. That's the day the $14.3 trillion debt ceiling must be raised so that Treasury may continue to pay all the country's bills in full and on time

The deal would keep the country out of default and reduce deficits by at least $2.1 trillion over a decade.

Whether the deal might also avert a first-ever credit downgrade for the United States is not clear, since ratings agency Standard & Poor's indicated it was looking for a credible, bipartisan plan that had at least $4 trillion of debt reduction.

The plan includes no tax or entitlement reform measures up front, although theoretically it leaves the door open to both.

A debt ceiling increase of between $2.1 trillion and $2.4 trillion: The framework will raise the debt ceiling immediately by $400 billion, then by another $500 billion after September.

After deep cuts are enacted by the end of the year, it will be increased by another $1.2 trillion to $1.5 trillion.

All told, the increases should cover the Treasury's borrowing needs until 2013.

Read the legislation - Full text - http://money.cnn.com/news/storysupplement/debt_ceiling_bill/?iid=EL

At least $2.1 trillion in spending cuts: The framework would immediately cap domestic and defense spending, resulting in cuts of $917 billion over 10 years.

The framework then calls for more deficit reduction -- between $1.2 trillion and $1.5 trillion worth -- to be determined by the end of this year and imposed over 10 years.

Bipartisan debt-reduction committee: That second round of deficit reduction would be proposed by a special bipartisan joint committee of Congress. The committee has until Thanksgiving to come up with its proposals and those proposals would be guaranteed by an up-or-down vote without amendment by Dec. 23.

If the committee proposes and the Congress approves between $1.2 trillion and $1.5 trillion in cuts, the debt ceiling will be increased dollar for dollar.

If the committee deadlocks or comes up with less than $1.2 trillion in cuts, or if Congress votes down the committee's proposals, the debt ceiling will be raised by $1.2 trillion.

While it appears the committee will be free to consider entitlement and tax reform -- and dare we say it, tax hikes -- practically speaking it's more likely members would hit an impasse over these measures just as they have, oh, every other day this year.

Across-the-board cuts as trigger: If the committee deadlocks or fails to come up with at least $1.2 trillion in debt reduction, the sword of Damocles will fall on most forms of spending in the federal budget.

Specifically, as much as $1.2 trillion in across-the-board cuts would kick in -- evenly divided between defense and non-defense spending. (Video: U.S. is 'debt man walking')

Dumbest Moments: Debt ceiling edition

Exempt from this round of cuts, however, would be programs that aid low-income Americans, according to Democrats' fact sheets. These include Social Security, Medicaid, veterans' benefits and pensions, food stamps and Supplemental Security Income.

While Medicare would not be exempt, the framework would restrict cuts to no more than 2% of the program's cost. And the cuts that occur would not affect Medicare benefits nor would they increase seniors' costs, according to the White House fact sheet.

Required vote on balanced budget amendment: In theory, the across-the-board cuts could be avoided if instead both chambers of Congress pass a Balanced Budget amendment to the Constitution and send it to the states for ratification before the end of the year.

But for a host of reasons, political and substantive, that's very unlikely to happen. http://money.cnn.com/2011/08/01/news/economy/debt_ceiling_breakdown_of
_deal/index.htm?hpt=hp_t2

There are no words. Gawd help us all. Gawd help this country!
I can't take any more...I gotta go get VERY stoned!


Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off



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Monday, August 1, 2011 4:20 PM

MINCINGBEAST


I support this plan for the following reasons:

1) it leaves open the possibility of a credit down grade, which is rad

2) it settles nothing, but rather sets the table for future disputes, which is also rad, and

3)it also manages to shaft the vulnerable, which is totally rad.

4) everyone hates it, which is rad, and reminds me of myself.

5) Everyone hates it, so it must be a rad compromise, as opposed to an awful idea.

Also, hippy, this happy occasion calls for something stronger than weed. Switch to lighter fluid for maximum brain damage.

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Tuesday, August 2, 2011 3:01 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


And then, after you have toked your sorrows, get up and DO something. It's a tragedy of "the American left" that we know so much and do so little.

I'm actively campaigning for left-leaning Dems in the primaries, and third-party during the elections.

And ALL progressives should protest every time Obama comes to visit, the "business as usual" GOP, and every so-called "tea party" event. There isn't a big corporate donor they're not sucking up to. Those assholes have thrown the economy under the bus time and time again. They need to feel the heat.

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Tuesday, August 2, 2011 3:23 AM

DREAMTROVE


While I agree with Sig here, I think life is more fun being Mince. I think we should throw a debt party.

I mean, think about it: they're about to hand another trillion to their corporate friends, who will then throw a massive party in the Caymans, and the administration will plan a smaller party of its own that will be more on a royal wedding scale. Given that this will cause our dollars to be worthless, we should throw a massive party of our own.


That's what a ship is, you know - it's not just a keel and a hull and a deck and sails, that's what a ship needs.

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Tuesday, August 2, 2011 4:53 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

I think life is more fun being Mince.
Well, my nose got a coffee-wash. So did my keyboard.
Quote:

they're about to hand another trillion to their corporate friends
Yep, thanks to the friggin' "Tea Party" and Wall Street Dems. Exactly why they need to feel the heat!

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Tuesday, August 2, 2011 5:02 AM

FIVVER


Quote:

that we know little and do so much


Fixed that for ya. No need to thank me.

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Tuesday, August 2, 2011 5:20 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


It's the economy, stupid. (Looking at YOU, Fivver! )

Quote:

Wall Street extends losses on economy worry
Any part of the economy that is starved for money dies. With a lot of money in the hands of the wealthy few, in banks, and corporate coffers, the REST of the economy (jobs, production, consumption, services) is going to nose-dive.

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Tuesday, August 2, 2011 7:24 AM

MINCINGBEAST


Quote:

Originally posted by SignyM:
And then, after you have toked your sorrows, get up and DO something. It's a tragedy of "the American left" that we know so much and do so little.

I'm actively campaigning for left-leaning Dems in the primaries, and third-party during the elections.

And ALL progressives should protest every time Obama comes to visit, the "business as usual" GOP, and every so-called "tea party" event. There isn't a big corporate donor they're not sucking up to. Those assholes have thrown the economy under the bus time and time again. They need to feel the heat.



I sympathize with you, though I think the tragedy of the American left is better represented by the 2000 elections. I am so crazy that I voted for Nader in 2000. You're welcome. In fact, I think I've voted for Nader 6 or 7 times. Told you I was crazy.

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Tuesday, August 2, 2011 8:50 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Gawd, Mincing, I LOVE you, you always make me smile even when I'm spitting nails. When it comes to politics, you should write for Daily Show or Colbert Report, you do it just as well! Please don't ever, ever leave; the way you put things in perspective is a real breath of fresh air!

No, dope didn't do it...it's not possible to GET stoned enough. Every now and then when I'm really desperate, I'll have a drink. Booze and I don't get along, which is why, since everyone at parties imbibes SOMETHING, I smoke dope. One drink and I'm flat on my back, or hanging over the "porcelain god". I didn't reach for a drink, I just got as stoned as I COULD and went to bed. Oh for the days when my bod could handle mescaline or psylocybin...or even speed...

Don't feel any better today, but REFUSE to watch the news for some time to come. I don't even want to KNOW about it; no doubt it whizzed through the Senate and now we're all screwed. There isn't enough dope in the world to get through the coming days, even if it COULD get me stoned enough not to care!


Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off



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Tuesday, August 2, 2011 8:53 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Sig, I just MIGHT get active. This to me is the worst shaft he's allowed yet, and he comes here to No. Ca. sometimes. It would be worth it just to express my fury! I don't bother with the TP or GOP, it's a waste of time and energy, besides, none of them dare come to No. Ca. anyway--they stay down South where their money is.

I would have given Mincing the prize for the first giggle of the day, he deservs it, only I don't think I'm CAPABLE of laughing right now.


Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off



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Tuesday, August 2, 2011 8:57 AM

WULFENSTAR

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg


The truth is, noone "won" in this deal. Granted, the Tea Party made a stand. For that, Im happy. But they didn't win.

The Fed. government will keep on wasting money, the people will keep suffering.

The Founding Fathers would have hung most of these bastards, (cept the TP folks) and rightly so.

Think on this as you cash your government checks..

its paid for by the sweat of people who actually work. Im sure it won't make a difference to you.

"Hope is a good thing, maybe the best of things, and no good thing ever dies"



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Tuesday, August 2, 2011 1:42 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by Wulfenstar:


The Founding Fathers would have hung most of these bastards, (cept the TP folks) and rightly so.




Okay, THAT made me laugh. That's funny stuff, Wulfie.

The TP people would have been hanged first, because nobody loves a turncoat, which is what the TP is.

By the way, it's hilarious to hear y'all call yourselves "TP" after not being bright enough to realize what "tea-bagging" meant. Y'all *DO* realize what "TP" is, right? It's what people wipe their asses with after taking a shit.

Is that really how you want to be known?





"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill

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Tuesday, August 2, 2011 1:46 PM

BYTEMITE


Founding Fathers would've gotten hung first by those qualifications.

"Gentlemen, we must all hang together or we will surely hang separately." ~ Ben Franklin

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Tuesday, August 2, 2011 3:21 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Indeed they would have. They were terrorists, after all.

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Tuesday, August 2, 2011 5:02 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Mincing, the 2000 Florida vote was stolen, as was the vote in 6 states in 2004. If you want, I can go into excruciating detail about why I think so, but it would prolly just bore you to tears.

So congrats on voting for Nader. I might have voted for Obama, but now that I know what he's all about I'm not gonna make that mistake again.

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Tuesday, August 2, 2011 5:04 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

its paid for by the sweat of people who actually work.
Well, then, how about shifting the burden to the CEOs and lawyers with fat bonuses and bulging portfolios? It would be hard to make an argument that they "work" in any sense of the word.

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Tuesday, August 2, 2011 6:36 PM

DMAANLILEILTT


"Rad"?! What is this, 1994?!

And really is ANYONE suprised that this "compromise" sucks? There wasn't really any other alternative outcome to all this.

"I really am ruggedly handsome, aren't I?"

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Tuesday, August 2, 2011 7:01 PM

SERGEANTX


wow.... you guys still at it? ;)

SergeantX

"It's a cold and it's a broken hallelujah"

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Tuesday, August 2, 2011 11:53 PM

FREMDFIRMA



Hey Sarge, howya doin ?
Of course we are, lmao - what else we gonna do, have cookies and milk while singing kumiyah with folks who intend on destroying each others entire way of life ?

On that note Siggy - you might wanna grep copies of the court documents here in order to shatter future denials.
http://www.truth-out.org/new-court-filing-reveals-how-2004-ohio-presid
ential-election-was-hacked/1311603015

From a tech perspective, it was downright blatant, a straight up MTM exploit.

-Frem

I do not serve the Blind God.

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Wednesday, August 3, 2011 3:04 AM

JAMERON4EVA


Quote:

Originally posted by SignyM:
Quote:

I think life is more fun being Mince.
Well, my nose got a coffee-wash. So did my keyboard.
Quote:

they're about to hand another trillion to their corporate friends
Yep, thanks to the friggin' "Tea Party" and Wall Street Dems. Exactly why they need to feel the heat!




Of course the poorer get poorer, and the middle american Republicans AND Democrats get the shaft. It's all bout the scrilla scrilla dolla dolla Benjamin big boys in govmnt. Never mind the military is being screwed by the govmn't as well. Note however.......Russia's economy is booming. Our economy is elastic, it gets good to the point it's TOO good, Clinton, the one who sold weapons to our current enemies, it was enevitable that this would happen. Our biggest problem is all our outsourcing for cheaper products. Idiots all round that are in charge, and other things. Never trust a politition.

"Mom, he has her chip. He has her."
John Connor,"Born To Run", TSCC EP 2x22

"We mustn't over stimulate young minds. Das ist verboten!" - Rappy

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Wednesday, August 3, 2011 3:51 AM

DREAMTROVE


Sig,

I'm aware some corporate whores go in under a tea party flag, but while I agree with yiur overall sentiment here, I don't think the tea party are really the biggest spenders in the GOP. Those neocons are still kicking around, some of them just rebranded themselves.

Also, we have these globalist neolib dems.

The thing we all need to bear in mind is who gets the money in "spending."

Medicare? About 90% of it becomes corporate profits. Sure, the poor get healthcare, but they could get that without a lot of spending. The spending is just there to pad corporate coffers.

Soc. Sec? Most fo it goes to millionaires. Overwhelmingly it goes to folks who don't need it. I am related to folks who use their soc. Sec. Check to live in gated communities, as a welfare system, that's fucked up.

Military? We're spending nearly a trillion a year when you count the supplementals and portions of the budget hidden in other areas. Of that, $95 billion goes to soldiers. Where does the rest go? Corporations.

Stimulus? That's just flat out hand outs to corporations.

Interest on the debt? Totally bogus unconstitutional payments of invented money to big international banking corporations that own so many other major international corporations.

How about schools? Yeah, the govt. Funds public education. Last I checked it was about $20 billion of the $3.7 trillion they're spending.


Also, all those tax-happy folks out there, I have to say this:

Where does that tax money go? See spending, above. Anything you do to raise taxes, is handing money to corporations, large very wealthy specific multinational corporations like Goldman Sachs and Exxon Mobil.

Okay, now where does it come from?

Wage earners.

Has anyone from either party suggested "taxing the rich?"

No, of course not.

Has anyone from the progressive or radical wings proposed doing so?

No, it only looks like they have. They've suggested higher taxes on "high wage earners."

Well, okay, who are "high wage earners?"

Well, they're not you and me, sure. But they are "wage earners."

What does that mean? Well, it means they're providing goods and services, that's where their wages are coming from.

It really doesn't matter who they are or what their salary is, what matters is where the money is coming from: the consumer.

So, consumers are paying the wages of wage earners, what happens if we raise taxes on wage earners? Prices go up.

So, wage taxes increase, and we the people lose money. Spending increases, and they the international corporations get money. govt, spending is the engine by which the rich get richer and the poor get poorer.


That's what a ship is, you know - it's not just a keel and a hull and a deck and sails, that's what a ship needs.

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Wednesday, August 3, 2011 3:52 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

its paid for by the sweat of people who actually work.- WULFIE

Well, then, how about shifting the burden to the CEOs and lawyers with fat bonuses and bulging portfolios? It would be hard to make an argument that they "work" in ANY sense of the word.-SIGNY



WULFIE? Got any comment on that? Or did you just run out of words that were stuffed into your head?

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Wednesday, August 3, 2011 3:59 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

govt, spending is the engine by which the rich get richer and the poor get poorer.
DT I agree with you: treating capital gains differently than wages is ridiculous. And treating corporate income differently that personal income is also ridiculous. Heck, if they're going to be "persons" let's treat them as such. But you made several fundamental errors.

(1) You're only focusing on the "taxing" end, not on the "spending" end. If you want to predict what's going to happen, you need to consider everything, not just follow one thread.

(2) You seem to think that government is the only driver of wealth inequity. Do you really think that business isn't THE driving force in that process? After all, if government is flowing money through business, isn't it BUSINESS that's sequestering the wealth to a very small group of people?

(3) We need to focus on creating jobs in the USA, because otherwise much of the money that goes into the hands of the poor goes to China via Walmart.

BY the way, you've just made a perfectly good argument for getting rid of health insurances. That's be more effective than getting rid of Medicare.

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Wednesday, August 3, 2011 4:23 AM

BYTEMITE


Quote:

(2) You seem to think that government is the only driver of wealth inequity. Do you really think that business isn't THE driving force in that process? After all, if government is flowing money through business, isn't it BUSINESS that's sequestering the wealth to a very small group of people?



I'd be surprised if he did, I surely don't. I rather like blaming both.

S'why I think we need some kind of new business (either market, economy, or business model) to compete, or new government. At this point I'm almost willing to take either one, though both would be good.

Quote:

(3) We need to focus on creating jobs in the USA, because otherwise much of the money that goes into the hands of the poor goes to China via Walmart.


I agree. In another thread I got into a discussion with Nick about the manufacturing of the US, and while I concede there's some, I think very little of the US economy is invested in tangible real world assets. Or even results, in the case of services.

Quote:

By the way, you've just made a perfectly good argument for getting rid of health insurances. That's be more effective than getting rid of Medicare.


I just cackled. Friggin' insurance companies. If we ever do march on them I'll be there torch in hand.

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Wednesday, August 3, 2011 5:42 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Quote:

Our biggest problem is all our outsourcing for cheaper products
Dunno about "biggest", but certainly a biggie.
Quote:

We need to focus on creating jobs in the USA, because otherwise much of the money that goes into the hands of the poor goes to China via Walmart
Amen and don't I wish.
Quote:

I think very little of the US economy is invested in tangible real world assets. Or even results, in the case of services.
All very good points, with which I agree.

I daren't get started on insurance companies, or I'd go ballistic..



Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off



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Wednesday, August 3, 2011 8:04 AM

MINCINGBEAST


Quote:

Originally posted by dmaanlileiltt:
"Rad"?! What is this, 1994?!

And really is ANYONE suprised that this "compromise" sucks? There wasn't really any other alternative outcome to all this.

"I really am ruggedly handsome, aren't I?"



Yes, rad. It is not 1994, but 1984, by my calculations.

I, for one, am surprised.

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Wednesday, August 3, 2011 8:12 AM

MINCINGBEAST


Quote:

Originally posted by SignyM:
Mincing, the 2000 Florida vote was stolen, as was the vote in 6 states in 2004. If you want, I can go into excruciating detail about why I think so, but it would prolly just bore you to tears.

So congrats on voting for Nader. I might have voted for Obama, but now that I know what he's all about I'm not gonna make that mistake again.



The 2000 election was not stolen. It is well established that retired, Florida Jews voted for Buchanan in large numbers because they liked him and he was rad.

The progressive's dilemma hasn't changed since 2000. The modern version is, do you:
1) challenge Obama in the primary and general election, thereby voting your conscience and building for the future...and also increasing the likelihood of a an awful republican presidency, or
2) support Obama in the primary and general election, thereby preventing a republican presidency but electing a democrat who will ignore your progressive politics.

It should be noted that if, say, McCain did half the things that Obama did, stoned progressive types would riot in the streets.

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Thursday, August 4, 2011 9:13 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Amen Mincing. Unfortunately, as has been true for so many years, I will chose #2, and then bitch and moan about him until we get the next one...who probably won't be any better. Sigh...


Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off



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Thursday, August 4, 2011 9:48 AM

NEWOLDBROWNCOAT


Quote:

Originally posted by mincingbeast:
Quote:

Originally posted by SignyM:
Mincing, the 2000 Florida vote was stolen, as was the vote in 6 states in 2004. If you want, I can go into excruciating detail about why I think so, but it would prolly just bore you to tears.

So congrats on voting for Nader. I might have voted for Obama, but now that I know what he's all about I'm not gonna make that mistake again.



The 2000 election was not stolen. It is well established that retired, Florida Jews voted for Buchanan in large numbers because they liked him and he was rad.

The progressive's dilemma hasn't changed since 2000. The modern version is, do you:
1) challenge Obama in the primary and general election, thereby voting your conscience and building for the future...and also increasing the likelihood of a an awful republican presidency, or
2) support Obama in the primary and general election, thereby preventing a republican presidency but electing a democrat who will ignore your progressive politics.

It should be noted that if, say, McCain did half the things that Obama did, stoned progressive types would riot in the streets.



YA left out option #3, maybe the best choice- oppose Obama in the primaries- maybe we can get the Dems to nominate somebody else, somebody better, but then support WHOEVER the Dems nominate in the general election. That's how the system is supposed to work. There's also the possibility that the Repubs will nominate somebody who isn't impossible, isn't a Palin or a Bachmann or a Gingrich. You could vote for them instead of Obama or Whoever. That's also how the system is supposed to work. ON that first Tuesday after the First Monday in November, you may have to vote for the lesser of two evils, not the better of 2 greats.

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Thursday, August 4, 2011 10:02 AM

BYTEMITE


Then you just get evil, and it doesn't matter if it's greater or lesser, because it builds on the past precedent.

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Thursday, August 4, 2011 10:12 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


NewOld, I'm not betting the bank on that. I doubt there will be much, if any, opposition to Obama--there rarely is for an incumbent. I doubt even more strongly that the GOP will put up anyone even slightly "moderate"; I continue to believe the Tea Party's power will determine who gets nominated. I just hope when Obama's gone someone will pop up I can feel GOOD about voting for. It wasn't Obama, I feared all the things about him that have come to pass (tho' I didn't think it would be QUITE as bad as it's turned out).


Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off



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Thursday, August 4, 2011 12:57 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by mincingbeast:

It should be noted that if, say, McCain did half the things that Obama did, stoned progressive types would riot in the streets.



It should also be noted that if, say, Obama did less than half the things that Bush did, angry tea-bagging types would riot in the streets. Again.


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