REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

cynical or delusional?

POSTED BY: 1KIKI
UPDATED: Monday, August 8, 2011 05:41
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Thursday, July 28, 2011 5:12 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


I think we all have our opinions of the TP people here. Now, I'm sure they have their feelings driving them to tea-bag, and that's not what I'm wondering about right now.

I'm wondering about the politicians.

How can you fly your private jet to an 'invitation only' meeting held by billionaires to learn what their bidding is in the interests of their wealth - and, if you are at all sincere - consider yourself a populist? For example. How can you hide what you are doing from the public in that way and think you are doing the publics will?

Any thoughts?

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Thursday, July 28, 2011 5:46 PM

DREAMTROVE


They're frauds who have appointed themselves tea party.

However, as long as the left is tasteless and vulgar, they will continue to get votes. Remember, this started out as a neutral non partisan group* in 2007, and the right embraced it, they left pilloried it, and so now they are all republicans, and that would be precisely the reason we are now losing elections to them. Also, as I pointed out, they started out with almost the identical political perspective to the people of this board, and no one here gave them any support except Wulfie.

We played this one extremely poorly. Now we have a tea party that doesn't resemble its origins at all.

* not only was it set up this way, I went to one and I know people who went to many others. Early on republicans were there in a small tent trying to win over the crowd and failing. Now they have the big tent.

That's what a ship is, you know - it's not just a keel and a hull and a deck and sails, that's what a ship needs.

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Thursday, July 28, 2011 6:14 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

However, as long as the left is tasteless and vulgar, [the Tea Party] will continue to get votes.


By being more tasteless and vulgar, of course.

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Thursday, July 28, 2011 9:10 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


"Now they have the big tent."

Er, no. Now they have the circus tent of crazy clowns and the rubes who love them.

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Thursday, July 28, 2011 11:54 PM

FREMDFIRMA


Oh horse shit, they were a sham astroturf sock puppet for the Republicans to hide behind as once again they offended so much of america they feared a political lynching, which is essentially what the Libertarian party is, what the US Constitution Party is, what the US Taxpayers party is...

Astroturf and Sock Puppetry, a mask to hide behind when their crimes become so great they can no longer defend them, and pulling in the useful idiots and bloody fools who think that just maybe this time it might be different, even though every single time all the way back to the Federalists, when Adams showed their true colors with the first "patriot" act, the Alien and Sedition Acts, it's always, always been the same fucking neo-feudalist agenda.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federalist_Party

And all the little splinters like the fekkin know-nothings to carry out shit they didn't wanna ADMIT to or have linked to them, yeah.

So don't expect me to buy the same tired lies that Pat Henry tore Hamilton a new ass over, they were bullshit then, they're bullshit now.

I know a neo-feudalist movement when I see one, and just cause you're stupid enough to partake of their koolaid while they laugh behind your back at your gullibility, doesn't mean everyone is.

-Frem

I do not serve the Blind God.

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Friday, July 29, 2011 1:49 AM

DREAMTROVE


Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:
Quote:

However, as long as the left is tasteless and vulgar, [the Tea Party] will continue to get votes.


By being more tasteless and vulgar, of course.



Mike

Sometimes, sure, but recognize that a large segment of the population did not grow up with the kind of Jon Stewart/South Park kind of juvenile bathroom language frequently used by the left, and is immediately turned off by it, including myself. Remember how much "talking black" was hurting the likes of Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton in elections, even 4 years before Obama's victory. Now consider if they had just said "my opponent suck a donkey's balls..."

It's losing the argument before it even begins. I just think there's a little bit of contagious language here, and some folk started using it, and others are picking it up, and they might not want to do that in the interests of winning a debate.

That's what a ship is, you know - it's not just a keel and a hull and a deck and sails, that's what a ship needs.

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Friday, July 29, 2011 1:55 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by 1kiki:
"Now they have the big tent."

Er, no. Now they have the circus tent of crazy clowns and the rubes who love them.







That's pretty much it.

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Friday, July 29, 2011 3:48 AM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up


Quote:

Originally posted by 1kiki:
How can you fly your private jet to an 'invitation only' meeting held by billionaires to learn what their bidding is in the interests of their wealth - and, if you are at all sincere - consider yourself a populist? For example. How can you hide what you are doing from the public in that way and think you are doing the publics will?

Any thoughts?



That this scenario doesn't apply only to Tea Partiers, or Republicans.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Friday, July 29, 2011 6:33 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Geezer's right, both parties (ALL parties!) do it, and sleep perfectly well at night. Remember the thing about RWA's being able to "compartmentalize" their thinking? To them the jets are a perfectly reasonable way to get there, and since they're getting there "to do good", they seen no conflict.

And DT summed it up: "They're frauds who have appointed themselves tea party"


Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off



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Friday, July 29, 2011 8:10 AM

FREMDFIRMA


Quote:

Originally posted by dreamtrove:
Sometimes, sure, but recognize that a large segment of the population did not grow up with the kind of Jon Stewart/South Park kind of juvenile bathroom language frequently used by the RIGHT, and is immediately turned off by it, including myself.


Quid Pro Quo.

Either you've never actually listened to the rhetoric of the right, especially the filth spewed over the radio bands, or you're being disingenious here - neither side has the market cornered on juvenile antics and such bullshit, but I do find it ironic that the right likes to PRETEND it doesn't, the same way it PRETENDS conservative-family-values right in the face of mountains of contradictory evidence, thus exposing their hypocrisy and over time having reduced that end of the political spectrum to a goddamn laughingstock - properly so, if you ask me.

Conversely, the left tries to pretend it has the moral fortitude to follow through when things get nasty, and they don't, and everybody knows it, reducing that end of the political spectrum to a pack of feckless curs and gutless pansies unwilling or unable to take a stand about anything meaningful.

And all the while BOTH sides act like a bunch of kindergarten brats arguing over toys while the country goes to shit - so don't expect me to play along with your little finger pointing tantrum here cause it's just more of the same - "he started it", "but they did it first", "no, you are!", yadda fuckin yadda, and it's not like I *care* how unprofessional the verbal to-and-fro between em is so long as the job gets done, but it AIN'T gettin done, not by either bloody one of em, and here you go focusing on minutae and petty partisan bickering, playing into the same useless waste of effort on a wider scale.

I swear, it's like two morons on a rowboat who drown while arguing over how the hole in the bottom got there instead of fixing it, a pox on both their houses, IMHO.

-Frem

I do not serve the Blind God.

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Friday, July 29, 2011 8:18 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


What Frem said, with exclamation points!

And boy,
Quote:

the left tries to pretend it has the moral fortitude to follow through when things get nasty, and they don't, and everybody knows it, reducing that end of the political spectrum to a pack of feckless curs and gutless pansies unwilling or unable to take a stand about anything meaningful.
You got THAT frackin' right!!!


Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off



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Friday, July 29, 2011 8:42 AM

FREMDFIRMA



Well, one case in point I refer to in that respect, was when the voters broke the Republican monopoly in both houses with a massacre at the polls, and the candidates shoved in to replace them were almost without fail supposedly hell-bent on getting our troops out of that quagmire...

I pointed out then, even before it happened, that they'd not hold to it, that all they wanted was to change which hand was on the tiller, and they'd roll over within sixty seconds of being seated.

And here were are.

There's a REASON I use the word Perfidy when describing american politics and society, because it's so expected that everything they say is lies that when such is shown to be true the response is just a shrug - I AM heartened by the recall efforts and outrage at the state governors who pulled a half-ass coup de etat based on blatant lies, but why the hell should folks be only cheesed off at the goddamn republicans, when those democrat pansies promised to get us out of the sandbox, and then went back on it ?

For mine own, I knew damn well they were lying from the get-go, although as usual no one listened, but nor am I willing to let THOSE lies pass, and I find it offensive in that respect that both parties aren't held to the same standard when it comes to keeping promises.

We're still up to our ass in the sandbox, rendition and domestic surveillence is still going on, we're still a banana republic security state at the moment, and none of em have the balls to take an axe to the so-called "defense" and "intelligence" budgets...
And they CAN NOT blame the republicans for that one, since they didn't even *try*.

I'm all in favor of using a candidates pre-election statements as evidence, and impeaching them for perjury, acting in bad faith, and violation of the terms of their employment by the american people - across the board.

Cause for damn sure we're trying to do exactly that to Snyder up here.

-Frem

I do not serve the Blind God.

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Friday, July 29, 2011 11:13 AM

DREAMTROVE


Frem

Of course I'm familiar with Rush Limbaugh's corner of anti-environmental corporatist conservative and their bathroom rhetoric. It's terrible, and can't possibly win any friends, which is why one by one of these hatemongers sinks like a stone. Which is exactly what I want them to do. Why would I want to change that?

No one in the real world is using the terms like envirowhacko or islamofascist, let's keep it that way. Or having you noticed how when a spokesperson of the right fails to get an audience how quickly they turn on him?

(Which is why I also make no effort to curb the disasterously bad rhetoric of socialists, who might as well add "uber alles" to the end of their posts. Keep it up guys, the free market appreciates it.)


That's what a ship is, you know - it's not just a keel and a hull and a deck and sails, that's what a ship needs.

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Friday, July 29, 2011 12:38 PM

PENGUIN


Let's see the real power of the Tea Party....

Let them run a Tea party candidate against the Dems and the Reps in 2012 and see how few votes they get.





King of the Mythical Land that is Iowa

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Friday, July 29, 2011 3:28 PM

BYTEMITE


It's frustrating when I know what everyone's going on about, but everyone seems to be misunderstanding each other.

The state of the country is divided, and so is this board.

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Friday, July 29, 2011 3:51 PM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Quote:

The state of the country is divided, and so is this board
Well, that can't be a surprise to you or anyone else, can it?

But I'm not understanding what you mean by
Quote:

when I know what everyone's going on about, but everyone seems to be misunderstanding each other.
There are divided opinions, but in this thread at least, I THINK we are understanding one another...aren't we?


Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off



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Friday, July 29, 2011 3:53 PM

DREAMTROVE


The present tea party has no dems left, so it would just split the gop vote, which it will probably do. That would be the demonstration of a tremendous amount of power.

My concern is that it is being heavily funded by the federal reserve and the oil companies, not exactly the opposition to the dems and reps.


That's what a ship is, you know - it's not just a keel and a hull and a deck and sails, that's what a ship needs.

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Friday, July 29, 2011 4:13 PM

FREMDFIRMA


Quote:

Originally posted by Bytemite:
It's frustrating when I know what everyone's going on about, but everyone seems to be misunderstanding each other.

The state of the country is divided, and so is this board.


Oh there's no misunderstanding on my part...
Quote:

“There are two great powers, and they’ve been fighting since time began. Every advance in human life, every scrap of knowledge and wisdom and decency we have has been torn by one side from the teeth of the other. Every little increase in human freedom has been fought over ferociously between those who want us to know more and be wiser and stronger, and those who want us to obey and be humble and submit.”

While that notion doesn't break down into nice neat little party lines, it is a pretty good assessment, IMHO, of who should be supported and who needs a boot up the ass, although admittedly as of late the needle is pegging the pin on the "boot up ass" side these days - and I'd be remiss in my civic duty to not deliver it.

-Frem

I do not serve the Blind God.

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Friday, July 29, 2011 4:16 PM

BYTEMITE


Unfortunately no. There's quite a bit of talking past each other going on. But, you're right, it's to be expected. So I guess it doesn't necessarily signify a change for the worse.

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Friday, July 29, 2011 4:38 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by BYTEMITE:
Unfortunately no. There's quite a bit of talking past each other going on. But, you're right, it's to be expected. So I guess it doesn't necessarily signify a change for the worse.



Some of that is purely due to lack of inflection and tone in written responses. I can't know how to take what you said, other than in how I read it - in other words, I can't read your facial expression or tone of voice in your response, I can only read the words. And our words often don't convey our entire meaning of what we're trying to say.

So we often must go round and round, talking back and forth at - and past - each other, until we finally close the circle and realize that we were talking about the same thing all along, only from slightly different vantage points.

"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill

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Friday, July 29, 2011 4:46 PM

BYTEMITE


True. When people are talking past each other, and it's realized, I've found the best I can do is disengage, and try again later, and sometimes you do finally connect and figure out what the other person is saying.

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Friday, July 29, 2011 5:34 PM

NEWOLDBROWNCOAT


Quote:

Originally posted by 1kiki:
"Now they have the big tent."

Er, no. Now they have the circus tent of crazy clowns and the rubes who love them.



They may have a big tent, but because they're all laying on their backs, the tent poles don't stick up very high.

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Saturday, July 30, 2011 7:04 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Quote:

My concern is that it is being heavily funded by the federal reserve and the oil companies
Please show statistics backing up that statement.


Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off



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Wednesday, August 3, 2011 2:04 PM

RIONAEIRE

Beir bua agus beannacht


I think we can all agree that politicians all have total doublestandards when it comes to their own conduct in regards to use of money and what they say vs. what they do. I think that's what former parasite Kiki is saying basically, though she was concentrating on the Repubs and Tea Party people specifically. But I agree with those who said its all of them. I think we are mostly in agreement about the main concepts here.

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya

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Wednesday, August 3, 2011 5:01 PM

BYTEMITE


Quote:

My concern is that it is being heavily funded by the federal reserve and the oil companies

Please show statistics backing up that statement.



You kiddin'?

The oil lobbyists are everywhere. Tea Party and Dems. Yes of COURSE.

The thread you just posted about all the runners in this spending bill attacking the EPA, that was the idea of Tea Party Republicans, who do you think is funding those? Oil companies, yes?

McCain got more money from the oil companies than Obama, but that's not saying Obama's pay off was nothing:

http://www.factcheck.org/2008/03/obamas-oil-spill/

You know that it lead to Obama letting BP off the hook for cleanup costs, and that they dumped chemicals in the ocean that made a mess.

You KNOW this.

As for the Federal Reserve:

Quote:

That said, there's something a bit creepy about the megapower that's accumulating at the Fed, one of Washington's least accountable institutions. Why should the markets decide who oversees them? Haven't the markets decided enough? Bernanke may be the ideal benevolent financial despot — a nebbishy superscholar with minimal connections to Wall Street and no previous hunger for power — but the next Fed chairman may be less ideal. And Obama has proposed to give even more regulatory power to the Fed, even though it has shown little interest in the past in curbing the excesses of the markets. At the same time, any politician who meddles with the Fed gets pilloried for threatening its hallowed independence; it's like the Supreme Court, if the Supreme Court could pour trillions of dollars wherever it wanted.


http://www.time.com/time/politics/article/0,8599,1918422,00.html

No one can say no to them.

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Thursday, August 4, 2011 1:36 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Funny to see how the Left tries to twists and distort every damn thing under the sun... never ceases to amuse.

The TEA party started as the very definition of a 'grass roots' movement, by real Americans who are simply fed up at the ineffectiveness of the Federal govt and who are tired of the same old politics as usual b.s.

And naturally, because of its popularity, it has drawn the attention by like minded folks, even some who are very successful, and want to add their say ( as well as money ) into the movement.


Were it not for George Soros, and the workers world party, we'd never have seen those " peace " rallies, against the Iraq war. Those were entirely staged by " outside money ", though the mouth breathers on the Left want to try to paint the TEA party as being mere 'astro turf' ,when they themselves are the originators in phony causes.


" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Thursday, August 4, 2011 1:40 AM

M52NICKERSON

DALEK!


Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:
Funny to see how the Left tries to twists and distort every damn thing under the sun... never ceases to amuse.

The TEA party started as the very definition of a 'grass roots' movement, by real Americans who are simply fed up at the ineffectiveness of the Federal govt and who are tired of the same old politics as usual b.s.

And naturally, because of its popularity, it has drawn the attention by like minded folks, even some who are very successful, and want to add their say ( as well as money ) into the movement.


Were it not for George Soros, and the workers world party, we'd never have seen those " peace " rallies, against the Iraq war. Those were entirely staged by " outside money ", though the mouth breathers on the Left want to try to paint the TEA party as being mere 'astro turf' ,when they themselves are the originators in phony causes.

b]



....and with this we have our answer, clearly delusional!

I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.

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Thursday, August 4, 2011 2:33 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


There's nothing remotely 'delusional' about my reply. You stating it isn't in the least bit proof of that fact.

I'm sorry, but your out of hand dismissal of anything you can't deal with or don't want to deal with is pathetic.

For my own part, and my own experience, the TEA party got its spark back in summer of '06, when then President Bush , along w/ McCain, pushed for the idiotic 'comprehensive' immigration bill, which did next to nothing to solve the illegal immigration problem, and only did MORE to increase the size and power of the federal bureaucracy.

Frustration over that issue actually had been mounting, and when it was learned that Bush was basically unaware of there being a wide spread movement to do something about illegal immigration, that set off some alarm bells with the aware public.

The resulting inactivity of the federal govt, but the so called 'leaders' of the GOP, and their deafness towards their own constituents, imo, is what set in motion what would later become the TEA party movement.

Washington wasn't listening. Not the GOP, and certainly not the Democrats. It was time for Americans to get angry, and get active.


" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Thursday, August 4, 2011 3:28 AM

BYTEMITE


Um. Ron Paul started the tea party, at which point it was grass roots, then media personalities came in and took over, which is when it became funded by something other than public dollars and ideas.

You've probably got a point about George Soros, but that just leads to an important conclusion here.

A movement can evolve into or even start as an astroturf, but that doesn't mean the average members of the people involved in the movement aren't well meaning or genuinely concerned.

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Thursday, August 4, 2011 3:39 AM

DREAMTROVE



Damn, it ate my post. Niki, kindly do not make demands of other people's time to allow them to have an opinion, or to state the obvious and undoubtedly majority opinion, even if you are ironically defending the tea party against me.

That said,
Quote:

Obama still received $884,000 from the oil and gas industry during the 2008 campaign, more than any other lawmaker except his Republican opponent, Sen. John McCain, who received $889,000


That's pretty 50/50. Generally, the republicans get more than the dems, 3:1 since 1990 but 9:1 during the 90s themselves, due to energy hostile policies of the clinton admin, which means that we can extrapolate that during the 2000s the numbers have been 60:40 in favor of the GOP, still not making the dems "clean." unprecedented money is flowing to the tea party from the industry, showing that as much as they love the dems and the gop, they are up for an even more non-green option.

As to the fed, The Obama administration gave the fed 3.5 trillion since 2009, and has appointed all three national deputy leaders of the fed to positions of power, ben to the fed, tim to treasury and larry as his personal economic advisor. Last year he passed a bill handing the fed control of 90% of the us non-currency economy, the largest economic power grab since the federal reserve act of 1913, with the possible exception of the new deal. The fed was also delighted with Obama's decision to take on the extra five to eight trillion in mortgage debt. The fed loves debt, it's what allows them to control policy. As long as the debt is high, all tax receipts can go to the fed, and then the fed loans money to fund policy which it then gets to preapprove spending for.

So, the fed clearly favors the dems, but it doesn't hate the gop, which looked the other way for the subprime scam, and gave the agency just over two trillion in eight years, and borrowed at least four trillion.

That said, the Fed is not againsr putting a horse in the tea party race, ironic given that it was formed to end the fed. All industries seek to regulate themselves, and of course, they always succeed, because they have more money and power than well meaning dogoodders. At any rate, tea party candidate herman cain is a former fed chair for kansas city.




That's what a ship is, you know - it's not just a keel and a hull and a deck and sails, that's what a ship needs.

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Thursday, August 4, 2011 3:53 AM

DREAMTROVE


Quote:

Originally posted by Bytemite:
Um. Ron Paul started the tea party, at which point it was grass roots, then media personalities came in and took over, which is when it became funded by something other than public dollars and ideas.

You've probably got a point about George Soros, but that just leads to an important conclusion here.

A movement can evolve into or even start as an astroturf, but that doesn't mean the average members of the people involved in the movement aren't well meaning or genuinely concerned.



Well said. I think this is really on target. Soros is just like the rest of them, just as globalist, but with his own left slant on it, and the same feeling that his will should override those of the people. Not everyone who invokes TPTB agree with one another on how globalism should be done.



Frem,

While I would agree that the right represents "a" status quo of their particular ruling class, they are not alone. There are many visions, each of which may or may not have its place, but that is up for those who follow them to decide, and none should be forced upon the whole of society..

Specifically: What the left sees as progress, I see as totalitarian dictatorship, just as much as its dogmatic theocratic counterpart.

The thing about the will of the people is that a good number of the people are radically religious, and that their will is actually their will, and not some evil to be oppressed and silenced, and who am I to say that they're wrong?

No one that I oppose makes up a demographic, not the christians, not israel, not the rich. I think of what I oppose in TPTB as being a set of tactics, and a small handful of megalomaniacs who apply them.

I see the solution to this as finding counter tactics, derailing their offensive and to deluding the most powerful maniacs among them into an illusion of victory so that they stop trying to oppress and kill the rest of us.

I would like to see a future of pure self determination of every group, whether they see their social change as socialist progress, or religious theocracy doesn't matter, all that matters is that in envisioning their own future, that no one is able to force that future on someone else, and I think you can see that the progressive and socially conscious left is perfectly capable of forcing its reality on the people as are religious zealots. Who you happen to agree with should only determine which community you choose to live in, and not be blind to the abuses of power of the other side.


That's what a ship is, you know - it's not just a keel and a hull and a deck and sails, that's what a ship needs.

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Thursday, August 4, 2011 3:57 AM

BYTEMITE


Yes, exactly. I have no clue where this idea came from that the tea party was originally about illegal immigration, as stricter regulation on that would require MORE government, more law enforcement, and so on, which Ron Paul would have been very against.

Amazing the public does this to itself, forgetting origins. "Who controls the past controls the future. Who controls the present controls the past."

Quote:

I would like to see a future of pure self determination of every group, whether they see their social change as socialist progress, or religious theocracy doesn't matter, all that matters is that in envisioning their own future, that no one is able to force that future on someone else


Yay!

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Thursday, August 4, 2011 6:30 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Byte, my question was about the fed, and you answered it, thank you. Of course I know about corporations, but I didn't know about the fed. You and DT explained that well, so now I DO know.

And DT, I'm perfectly free to ask for people to expand on or provide cites and information on anything they post, as is everyone else. Nobody has to PROVIDE any, but you have no control over what I ask or of whom. WHERE you got the idea I was "defending" the Tea Party escapes me, and it was nothing like a "demand", it was a request, as should be obvious by the wording: I said "please show". So often you seem terribly sensitive and misread things addressed to you as being "attacks" when they most certainly are NOT. You have also so often made flat statements and said they are obvious or everyone "knows" it, so I want to understand some of those statements or find out what your source is so I can read it for myself and come to my own opinion.

I wish it were possible for you to take less offense when no offense is intended, and see disagreements as other than "attacks". Maybe someday...

As to the Tea Party, it was pretty clear to me that the original Tea Party was started by Ron Paul; what we have now bears little resemblance, in my opinion, to that actual grass-roots movement. I could say something like that is the obvious and undoubtedly majority opinion, but I don't work that way. The Koch Brothers were behind so much of the funding of the supposed "grass roots" movement, as was the GOP, as far as I can tell.

I MIGHT have more respect for them if they'd actually BE a party, rather than this loose amalgam of ultra-right-wing people who all have differing ideas on everything except a few core ideological stances. Yes, there are differences in every party, but we have a two-party (or, as most of us would wish, a MULTI-party) system, and to want power but refuse to accept being a real party is kind of wanting to have your cake and eat it too, to me.

Any group or party which believes in hard-core stubbornness bothers me, as I believe compromise is the only way humans get anything done. And holding the country hostage to get everything they want is reprehensible to me, whichever party does it.

I won't bother responding to Raptor's predictable delusions, it's not worth my time.


Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off



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Thursday, August 4, 2011 6:42 AM

BYTEMITE


Ohhh. Sorry about that then. I was just flabbergasted because the Fed thing just seems blatant to me. I assumed everyone knew about both.

But, yeah, this is also why a lot of people on these boards are nervous about Goldman Sachs and a bunch of other banking firms. It's because people in the Fed can be hired to the firm, and people in the firm go into the Fed, and all of them can effect policy in a major way.

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Thursday, August 4, 2011 6:57 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

For my own part, and my own experience, the TEA party got its spark back in summer of '06, when then President Bush , along w/ McCain, pushed for the idiotic 'comprehensive' immigration bill, which did next to nothing to solve the illegal immigration problem, and only did MORE to increase the size and power of the federal bureaucracy.

Frustration over that issue actually had been mounting, and when it was learned that Bush was basically unaware of there being a wide spread movement to do something about illegal immigration, that set off some alarm bells with the aware public.




Anybody stupid enough to think that that's how the Tea Party got its start clearly has no place even discussing things related to the Tea Party.

"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill

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Thursday, August 4, 2011 7:02 AM

M52NICKERSON

DALEK!


Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:
There's nothing remotely 'delusional' about my reply. You stating it isn't in the least bit proof of that fact.

I'm sorry, but your out of hand dismissal of anything you can't deal with or don't want to deal with is pathetic.

For my own part, and my own experience, the TEA party got its spark back in summer of '06, when then President Bush , along w/ McCain, pushed for the idiotic 'comprehensive' immigration bill, which did next to nothing to solve the illegal immigration problem, and only did MORE to increase the size and power of the federal bureaucracy.

Frustration over that issue actually had been mounting, and when it was learned that Bush was basically unaware of there being a wide spread movement to do something about illegal immigration, that set off some alarm bells with the aware public.

The resulting inactivity of the federal govt, but the so called 'leaders' of the GOP, and their deafness towards their own constituents, imo, is what set in motion what would later become the TEA party movement.

Washington wasn't listening. Not the GOP, and certainly not the Democrats. It was time for Americans to get angry, and get active.



What a whiner!

I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.

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Thursday, August 4, 2011 8:08 AM

DREAMTROVE



Quote:



As to the Tea Party, it was pretty clear to me that the original Tea Party was started by Ron Paul; what we have now bears little resemblance, in my opinion, to that actual grass-roots movement




Sorry, I thought you were snarking, like Byte, I assumed everyone knew this. I did see a page somewhere that had oil and gas money to the tea party, but I don't have it now, probably easy data to find. There's a lot of it. But you can see it without the money, because you have all of these supposed libertarians suddenly saying "it's your property right to drill" which is a new one, and a bit of a curve ball, since it's not the people who will get the oil or the right to drill, it's large corporations. I would have thought that it was obvious that the libertarian right was to not have someone poison your water supply, ration your water or force you to move, to say nothing of dynamiting your home.

Yes, the Koch brothers, and also Fox news. The problem was that the tea party had no central organization, and so heads popped up all over the place and said "i'm the tea party! and so's my wife!"

Also, Rupert Murdoch, more than the GOP. The republican party actually didn't want to fund a split in itself, but once the candidates won prinaries, of course they funded them to office, because then they were the GOP candidates.

I only went to one rally, and there were no republicans there, but later a friend of mine went to one and said the GOP had a booth on the side but wasn't getting a lot of attention. After a while, they got more into it, once it was proven that this could be used to gain seats rather than split the party. Now I'd say they own it, and it's not very different form the mainstream GOP.

My guess is that a new splinter will form, because the MSM is losing power.


That's what a ship is, you know - it's not just a keel and a hull and a deck and sails, that's what a ship needs.

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Thursday, August 4, 2011 8:17 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by m52nickerson:
Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:
There's nothing remotely 'delusional' about my reply. You stating it isn't in the least bit proof of that fact.

I'm sorry, but your out of hand dismissal of anything you can't deal with or don't want to deal with is pathetic.

For my own part, and my own experience, the TEA party got its spark back in summer of '06, when then President Bush , along w/ McCain, pushed for the idiotic 'comprehensive' immigration bill, which did next to nothing to solve the illegal immigration problem, and only did MORE to increase the size and power of the federal bureaucracy.

Frustration over that issue actually had been mounting, and when it was learned that Bush was basically unaware of there being a wide spread movement to do something about illegal immigration, that set off some alarm bells with the aware public.

The resulting inactivity of the federal govt, but the so called 'leaders' of the GOP, and their deafness towards their own constituents, imo, is what set in motion what would later become the TEA party movement.

Washington wasn't listening. Not the GOP, and certainly not the Democrats. It was time for Americans to get angry, and get active.



What a whiner!

I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.




Indeed.

Rappy's new avatar:





"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill

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Thursday, August 4, 2011 9:30 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


No problem. Typical of the internet, where no facial or vocal expression can be determined.
Quote:

heads popped up all over the place and said "i'm the tea party! and so's my wife!"

Also, Rupert Murdoch, more than the GOP. The republican party actually didn't want to fund a split in itself, but once the candidates won prinaries, of course they funded them to office, because then they were the GOP candidates.....After a while, they got more into it, once it was proven that this could be used to gain seats rather than split the party. Now I'd say they own it, and it's not very different form the mainstream GOP.

I agree 100%, except I would say the GOP is "owned" by the Tea Party. There is quite a difference...unfortunately some of the better ideas by the TP have been subverted by the GOP to their own ends, and the TP will either be subsumed (or subordinated) by the GOP or split their votes. And of course Murdoch, I forgot to mention him.


Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off



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Thursday, August 4, 2011 9:40 AM

DREAMTROVE


Not 100%, there are only 60 seats, but for all that the left blogs scream tea party extremists, the tea party are really the moderates, they're the ones whose votes are up in the air, last time there was a dem proposal, a third of them voted for it... Ergo, they hold center board, the most powerful position.

However, it's just the house. In the senate, therree's no real influence yet.


That's what a ship is, you know - it's not just a keel and a hull and a deck and sails, that's what a ship needs.

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Thursday, August 4, 2011 10:07 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


I find it hard to believe the Tea Party in the House are the "moderates". Tho' I do find in Wikipedia that others believe as you do:
Quote:

An article in Politico stated that many Tea Party activists see the caucus as an effort by the Republican Party to hijack the movement. Utah congressman Jason Chaffetz refused to join the caucus, saying "Structure and formality are the exact opposite of what the Tea Party is, and if there is an attempt to put structure and formality around it, or to co-opt it by Washington, D.C., it’s going to take away from the free-flowing nature of the true tea party movement."
NOnetheless, I think the recent vote on the debt ceiling showed a lot of Tea Partiers in the House were responsible for the lack of compromise.
Quote:

- Fiery Republicans known as the Tea Party Caucus are at the center of the debate over which version of a plan - if any - to cut spending and raise the debt limit should be adopted in Congress.

These conservatives, many of whom were swept into office during the 2010 midterm elections, have made it their mission to reign in spending and shrink the size of government, even if it means taking the country to the edge of default. More at http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2011/07/29/who-is-the-tea-party-c
aucus-in-the-house
/

Quote:

Members of the freshly minted House Tea Party Caucus spent their first day of existence Wednesday trying to clarify just who they are — a tricky task when the Tea Party opposes big government and the caucus members work in the heart of it.
....
The group includes three members of the Republican leadership, including Representative Mike Pence of Indiana, who as chairman of the National Republican Congressional Committee is leading the party’s effort to win back the House. More at http://www.nytimes.com/2010/07/22/us/politics/22tea.html you elaborate on how you determined the Tea Partiers in the House have been hijacked by the GOP? Certainly the GOP WANTED to take over the movement once it gained attention, in order to gain seats last year, but I'm skeptical that it's actually been taken over by the GOP and the GOP are the extremists.

You could certainly be right, especially given
Quote:

The main difference is the willingness of the Tea Party gang to say what they believe out loud. This, of course, is driving Republican political consultants crazy. Republicans have never gotten elected by laying out to the voters the core components of their economic agenda. When they have been successful it has generally been by soft-pedaling or sugar-coating the things that mattered most to their corporate backers and playing instead to the fears and anxieties of their rank and file voters.
.....

Most of the Republican Party leadership agrees with [the Tea Party] policies. The problem is that these candidates don't seem to have enough sense -- or political experience -- to know that they're not supposed to go around talking about those policies before they're elected. More at http://www.huffingtonpost.com/robert-creamer/whats-the-difference-betw
_b_682799.html

This is how I've viewed it:
Quote:

Tea Party Republicans have been flexing their muscles in the debt ceiling standoff, but their strong-arm tactics could backfire if the public comes to view them as unrelenting extremists.

John Boehner has been struggling to control the Republican House, and has been pushed and pressured into a debt ceiling bill that's left little room for compromise - and the Tea Partiers have been the ones doing the pushing.

They're a relatively small but very powerful group of Republicans.

"The Tea Party has forced Speaker Boehner more to the right. That involved deeper spending cuts and also support for the balance budget amendment. So they have had a disproportionate impact on the entire Congressional debate," Darrell West with the Brookings Institution said.

It's extraordinary considering the portion of the House they make up. The Tea Party Caucus has 60 members, which is only a quarter of the total number of Republicans in the House.

But when Boehner had to delay the vote on his bill to get more votes, Tea Party members made up more than half of the Republicans who were prepared to vote no.

It's a continuation of the moment triggered last fall when the Tea Party captured political lightning in a bottle and helped elect dozens of new congressmen. They came in on a promise to shock Washington into spending less and cutting more.

Their unwillingness to compromise has changed the way the government handles its debt.

But now even Senator John McCain, a budget-hawk himself, said they risk over-reaching if they never compromise.

"That is not fair to the American people to hold out and say we won't agree to raising the debt-limit until we pass a balanced budget amendment to the Constitution. It's unfair, it's bizarro," McCain said on the Senate floor.

The Tea Party may already be setting itself on a road to self-destruction.

"They are now putting themselves in peril. The Tea Party could destroy itself, if it is now careful, if it is seen as taking us into default," CNN Senior Political Analyst David Gergen said.

Public disapproval for the Tea Party has been steadily growing, from 26 percent to 47 percent, since January last year. Analyst Darrell West said that may not hurt Tea Party congress members themselves in their next elections because many come from safe districts.

But he said the Republican Party may suffer the consequences.

"The Republican presidential nominee may end up suffering the consequences, because Obama certainly is going to tie that GOP nominee to the more extreme elements within the Republican party in Congress," he said.

But many Tea Party lawmakers seem to relish the fight, and said voters sent them to Washington on a mission, and they're more worried about cutting spending than winning a popularity contest. http://www.ksla.com/story/15177885/republicans-faced-with-tea-partys-p
ower

Unless the GOP is using the Tea Party Caucaus to hide behind, it has certainly seemed since they were elected that those who call themselves Tea Partiers in the House have been the ones bent on ideological purity and never compromising. And if you're tempted to snark that it's because I pay attention the the MSM, I've seen the same in many places on the internet as well, and not just from liberal sources.


Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off



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Thursday, August 4, 2011 10:33 AM

DREAMTROVE


Niki

They ran on the republican ticket, that means they got funding from the GOP to run, and now they have won they are republicans. This means that the republican party can withdraw support if they don't act like republicans. Ergo, they will likely lose the following election, as the GOP would run a candidate against them, splitting the conservative vote. Pretty simple, no complex conspiracies needed.

As for the tea party position, it started out very similar to the average position here, if more Wulfenstar than anything else, I'd still rather have Wulfie in office than a politician. The problem came when they went looking for people to fund their *primary* campaigns. The GOP of course can't be biased in its own primary, so they needed to find other sources, and they found some libertarians out there like the people mentioned, but frankly, that's not enough to compete, so they started whoring out to industry. They found a lot of money from oil and gas, and also coal.

The snag is that libertarian philosophy has never had a well thought out environmental position, because they don't want to give justification to the existence of government, and they haven't come up with a replacement solution.

This, by itself, doesn't make them pro-industry or anti-environment, but it means that when the libertarian voters made their demands, and the industry made their demands, the two did not clash because there were no ecological demands from the libertarian voters, and there were no civil liberties restrictions coming from industry, so it was a marriage of omission.

Now we have tire treads of industry trucks on the backs of snakes.


That's what a ship is, you know - it's not just a keel and a hull and a deck and sails, that's what a ship needs.

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Thursday, August 4, 2011 10:39 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by m52nickerson:
Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:
There's nothing remotely 'delusional' about my reply. You stating it isn't in the least bit proof of that fact.

I'm sorry, but your out of hand dismissal of anything you can't deal with or don't want to deal with is pathetic.

For my own part, and my own experience, the TEA party got its spark back in summer of '06, when then President Bush , along w/ McCain, pushed for the idiotic 'comprehensive' immigration bill, which did next to nothing to solve the illegal immigration problem, and only did MORE to increase the size and power of the federal bureaucracy.

Frustration over that issue actually had been mounting, and when it was learned that Bush was basically unaware of there being a wide spread movement to do something about illegal immigration, that set off some alarm bells with the aware public.

The resulting inactivity of the federal govt, but the so called 'leaders' of the GOP, and their deafness towards their own constituents, imo, is what set in motion what would later become the TEA party movement.

Washington wasn't listening. Not the GOP, and certainly not the Democrats. It was time for Americans to get angry, and get active.



What a whiner!]



And what a troll. Nothing I said was in the least bit 'whining'. It was reasoned, mature, well presented and to the point. YOUR idiotic reply ?

Whining.


" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Thursday, August 4, 2011 2:36 PM

M52NICKERSON

DALEK!


Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:
And what a troll. Nothing I said was in the least bit 'whining'. It was reasoned, mature, well presented and to the point. YOUR idiotic reply ?



Does the baby need a tissue?

I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.

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Thursday, August 4, 2011 2:51 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by m52nickerson:
Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:
And what a troll. Nothing I said was in the least bit 'whining'. It was reasoned, mature, well presented and to the point. YOUR idiotic reply ?



Does the baby need a tissue?

I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.



Now you're just ducking, because you're a coward or you lack the intellectual capacity to even TRY to present a coherent, sane response.

I stand validated by your childish response.


" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Thursday, August 4, 2011 3:04 PM

M52NICKERSON

DALEK!


You first, I've asked you to explain how racial make up of a country would mean the Nordic would not work. I got nothing.

I asked you to point out any ridiculous environmental regulation, I even spotted you the Federal Safe Drinking Water Act. I got nothing.

I asked you to explain how the federal deficit is taking money out of peoples pockets right now and dragging down the economy, nothing.

It is fact that the TEA parties where started in support of Ron Paul. It is fact that every TEA party group of any kind of size has massive political funding. So I have not reason to reply to you in any way other then to mock your ignorance.

SO....

What is the smell, oh, baby Auraptor needs his diaper changed.

I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.

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Thursday, August 4, 2011 3:20 PM

BYTEMITE


Quote:

Originally posted by Niki2:
Could you elaborate on how you determined the Tea Partiers in the House have been hijacked by the GOP? Certainly the GOP WANTED to take over the movement once it gained attention, in order to gain seats last year, but I'm skeptical that it's actually been taken over by the GOP and the GOP are the extremists.



Sarah Palin started as a REPUBLICAN Vice President. When did you start to hear about the Tea Party and when did it start to take a turn?

Quote:

Unless the GOP is using the Tea Party Caucaus to hide behind


Yup.

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Thursday, August 4, 2011 4:17 PM

DREAMTROVE


Sarah Palin's move to join the tea party didn't automatically signal a republican take over though, lots of mainstream party members have joined third party movements.

This ks somewhat of a bone of contention with me having worked with a few third parties. There is such intense paranoia out there about mainstream candidates that the third parties refuse to take anyone, essentially, who had anything to do with mainstream, and as a result, they refuse to take anyone at all. It's like a toned down version of stormfront.org where they're all accusing each other of being jewish moles.

A sane inddependent movement welcomes anyone who comes from the mainstream and brings traffic with them, and should be a little leary of any traffic which exceeds their own.


That's what a ship is, you know - it's not just a keel and a hull and a deck and sails, that's what a ship needs.

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Thursday, August 4, 2011 6:01 PM

BYTEMITE


Sarah went there because it helped her career, sure, and she may not have been the direct vector for the Republican take over. But indirectly, she and Glenn Beck (who most certainly is a Republican talking head) are what brought Republican attention to the tea party. That's when it changed.

I'm going to have to call it like I see it. However misused Palin felt during the McCain campaign and however much her pride was damaged, she's also a politician with a dash of celebrity. Even if she happens to be vindictive, her ambition always outweighs any of that. It would not have been in her best interests to cut ties with the republican party, and even after they lost the presidency, and even after Palin turned on McCain, her snipits and soundbytes still made her the darling of the Republican party, and she still was that right up to when she started promoting the tea party. She was republican, she still is republican, she's never not been republican.

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Friday, August 5, 2011 2:39 PM

FREMDFIRMA



Takeover my ass, people need to do their homework.

Tea Party and the Myth of a Grassroots Movement
http://jonathanturley.org/2011/08/02/tea-party-and-the-myth-of-a-grass
roots-movement
/
Quote:

Lost in the tumult of media exaggeration and sensationalism was the fact that this was not at all a grass roots movement of average Americans, but a crafty example of political manipulation laid out in tandem with the compliance of Rupert Murdoch’s news network’s assault upon all things they deem liberal. The prime mover in this is Richard “Dick” Armey, a former Texas Republican Congressman, House Majority Leader, and major senior lobbyist at a worldwide lobbying firm. Armey created the mythology of a grass roots movement, guided its progress, arranged, and then paid for its “spontaneous” events.

FOLLOW. THE. MONEY.

-Frem

I do not serve the Blind God.

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