REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

Bachman signs Marriage Vow

POSTED BY: NEWOLDBROWNCOAT
UPDATED: Friday, July 22, 2011 09:00
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Friday, July 8, 2011 5:54 PM

NEWOLDBROWNCOAT


http://news.yahoo.com/michele-bachmanns-disturbing-anti-porn-pledge-16
5500169.html

Quote:


The GOP presidential hopeful is the first candidate to sign an Iowa group's controversial "Marriage Vow"

The Family Leader, one of Iowa's most influential social conservative organizations, says that in order to receive the group's endorsement, GOP presidential candidates must sign a 14-point pledge affirming a commitment to traditional marriage. By signing the pledge, called The Marriage Vow, a candidate agrees to remain faithful to his or her partner, oppose gay marriage, reject pornography, reject Islamic Sharia law, and uphold the assertion that married couples have better sex, among other things. Michele Bachmann has already signed it.

perhaps the biggest outcry is over an aspect of the pledge that states a child born into slavery was "more likely to be raised by his mother and father in a two-parent household" than one born after the election of President Obama.




The document itself is at:

http://www.thefamilyleader.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/07/themarriagev
ow.final_.7.7.111.pdf


Dunno exactly how Sharia law, either pro or con, is going to have much affect on the family and marriage here in the USA, so I'm not sure how that's really relevant to the other moral issues of marriage, fidelity and divorce.


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Friday, July 8, 2011 5:56 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Her husband didn't sign it, did he?

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Saturday, July 9, 2011 3:44 AM

PENGUIN


I hereby pledge NOT to vote for anyone who would sign that piece of crap.





King of the Mythical Land that is Iowa

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Saturday, July 9, 2011 7:31 AM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up


Quote:

Originally posted by Penguin:
I hereby pledge NOT to vote for anyone who would sign that piece of crap.



Yep. I could probably do that without violating my previous pledge to vote for anyone who offers free beer of my choice for life.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Saturday, July 9, 2011 8:48 AM

BYTEMITE


Geezer: I find your argument strangely appealing.

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Saturday, July 9, 2011 10:54 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


I tend to be leery of any "pledge" that tries to tell me how good things were for black people under slavery.

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Saturday, July 9, 2011 11:50 AM

BYTEMITE


It's also factually questionable because one of the major things that slave owners did to prevent uprisings, and just one of the great tragedies of the whole thing, was to split up families. Husbands from wives, children from parents, and so on.

Many of them were never able to find each other again.

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Saturday, July 9, 2011 12:41 PM

JONGSSTRAW


It's a huge mistake for her.









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Saturday, July 9, 2011 1:45 PM

RIONAEIRE

Beir bua agus beannacht


Even I wouldn't sign that. That whole slavery thing? Did they not read their history? That's just in dreadfully bad taste and totally inaccurate.

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya

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Sunday, July 10, 2011 2:57 AM

PENGUIN


If they truly wanted to "protect marriage", they would make infidelity a crime and make divorce nearly impossible to get.


I'm betting Newt wouldn't vote for that...





King of the Mythical Land that is Iowa

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Sunday, July 10, 2011 5:30 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Jezus, these people have no limits, do they? What an assinine "pledge". I hope it does her FAR more harm than good...the slavery thing is abominable to start with; the sharia law is laughable; and how I feel about someone who will "pledge" to fight against same-sex marriage, well, . I'm guessing it's politics, pure and simple, and more playing to the base. They still scare the bejezus out of me. I'm surprised there isn't something about abortions in there too--they seem to have covered all their bases except for that. Sick, sick people.


Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off



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Sunday, July 10, 2011 6:39 AM

NEWOLDBROWNCOAT


Quote:

Originally posted by Penguin:
If they truly wanted to "protect marriage", they would make infidelity a crime and make divorce nearly impossible to get.


I'm betting Newt wouldn't vote for that...





King of the Mythical Land that is Iowa



"Personal marital fidelity" and " respecting the marriages of others" are the first 2 points.

There are also obstacles to " quickie divorce."

It will be interesting to see if their vow is enough to keep The Newt out, or how far they'll backtrack when he gets nominated.

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Sunday, July 10, 2011 6:43 AM

NEWOLDBROWNCOAT


Quote:

Originally posted by Niki2:
I'm surprised there isn't something about abortions in there too--they seem to have covered all their bases except for that. Sick, sick people.




Point 9 or 10 is " Humane protection of women" from, among other things, " infanticide and abortion"

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Sunday, July 10, 2011 12:29 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by Bytemite:
It's also factually questionable because one of the major things that slave owners did to prevent uprisings, and just one of the great tragedies of the whole thing, was to split up families. Husbands from wives, children from parents, and so on.

Many of them were never able to find each other again.





But Bachmann swears the Founding Fathers worked "tirelessly" to end slavery, even though she now claims it was better for the children. A paradox, that - if it was so much better for the children of slaves, then obviously the founders hated black children and wanted their lives to be worse, right?

A strange case, this Bachmann person. She's an idiot, wrapped in a moron, inside an ignoramus. She's a Turducken of stupid.

She and Palin should team up, I'm tellin' ya. A traveling history lecture series - The Bachman-Palin CrazyDrive Tragical History Tour™

"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill

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Monday, July 11, 2011 4:51 AM

NEWOLDBROWNCOAT


Quote:

Originally posted by NewOldBrownCoat:


perhaps the biggest outcry is over an aspect of the pledge that states a child born into slavery was "more likely to be raised by his mother and father in a two-parent household" than one born after the election of President Obama.





This just in!

The Family Leader group is going to remove that statement, because it " could be misconstrued." Also , according to them, it's in the preamble of the document, not the binding, pledge part. ( Which is a true statement. )

Two links:

http://www.slate.com/blogs/weigel/2011/07/11/happiness_in_slavery.html

http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0711/58631.html#ixzz1RnlgUU4u

One of the links debunks the claim in the original statement.


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Monday, July 11, 2011 5:37 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Good articles, NewOld:
Quote:

Because of the high premium placed on male labor, throughout every period of American slavery, black men were the most likely to be parted from their families. For slave owners, who considered the basic family unit to be comprised of mother and child, husbands and fathers could be, and were, easily replaced. Many a slave woman was assigned a new husband by her master [so much for their having been "husbands and wives" back then]. Male children were also frequently taken from slave mothers. The bond between an enslaved mother and daughter was the least likely to be disturbed through sale. Yet this tie was also fragile. Owners could reap large returns by selling pretty girls, especially light-skinned ones, into prostitution or concubinage.

The possibility of separation was an ever-present threat to every member of a slave family. When a master died, his slaves might be indiscriminately distributed among his heirs or sold off to multiple buyers. When a planter's child was born or married, he or she might receive the gift of a black attendant. Mothers were taken from their own children to nurse the offspring of their masters. And slave children were torn from mothers and brought into the house to be raised alongside the master's sons and daughters.

Quote:

We have better statistics on modern black family formation than our statistics on slave transactions, but we can agree on this -- black children are someone less likely to be ripped away from their mothers and raised by slave owners these days. Both Bachmann and Santorum had it in their power to scan this and say something like, "hey, if you take out this historical gibberish, I can sign the pledge, but not before." They didn't do that. Meanwhile, Gary Johnson, who isn't competing for any of the FAMiLY Leader's base, comes out against the whole pledge.
Quote:

This "pledge" is nothing short of a promise to discriminate against everyone who makes a personal choice that doesn’t fit into a particular definition of "virtue."

While the Family Leader pledge covers just about every other so-called virtue they can think of, the one that is conspicuously missing is tolerance. In one concise document, they manage to condemn gays, single parents, single individuals, divorcees, Muslims, gays in the military, unmarried couples, women who choose to have abortions, and everyone else who doesn’t fit in a Norman Rockwell painting.


I love the excuse given in the second article, that the slavery language was part of the "preamble", not the actual vow:
Quote:

"We came up with the pledge and so we had no idea that people would misconstrue that," she said. "It was not meant to be racist or anything. it was just a fact that back in the days of slavery there was usually a husband and a wife...we were not saying at all that things are better for African-American children in slavery days than today."
Which only re-states it, amusingly enough.

Some of the GOP candidates would absolutely shock voters of earlier elections. It's amazing how many Americans they are condemning, as above, in one statement. The mentality of these people is that they want to take us back to the 19th century, not move ahead. Scary; my only prayer is that they are soundly defeated and condemned themselves, that the public show they are as aghast at their stances as any reasonable person SHOULD BE.


Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off



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Monday, July 11, 2011 5:43 AM

BYTEMITE


I have decided to dub the "slave children" section in the preamble an excellent example of insane troll logic (re: tvtropes).

Quote:

you pause and replay it in your mind, either because you didn't know that someone could be that wrong, or you're not even actually sure what was just said.


"It was not meant to be racist or anything. it was just a fact that back in the days of slavery there was usually a husband and a wife...we were not saying at all that things are better for African-American children in slavery days than today."

They still don't get it. Amazing. No, I'll give them the credit that they weren't being racist, just unaware of history to a completely baffling degree.

The rest of it is slightly less mind melting logic bomb, though laden with some abhorrent agendas.

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Monday, July 11, 2011 6:35 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by Bytemite:
I have decided to dub the "slave children" section in the preamble an excellent example of insane troll logic (re: tvtropes).

Quote:

you pause and replay it in your mind, either because you didn't know that someone could be that wrong, or you're not even actually sure what was just said.


"It was not meant to be racist or anything. it was just a fact that back in the days of slavery there was usually a husband and a wife...we were not saying at all that things are better for African-American children in slavery days than today."

They still don't get it. Amazing. No, I'll give them the credit that they weren't being racist, just unaware of history to a completely baffling degree.

The rest of it is slightly less mind melting logic bomb, though laden with some abhorrent agendas.




Perfect. Now I know what to call that! That was EXACTLY my reaction when I heard it - I had to stop and rewind, thinking, "I did not hear that correctly. There's no way I just heard that. Can't be." Sure as shit, though, I *HAD* heard it correctly.

Insane Troll Logic. ITL. It certainly fits.

I like their "clarification", though. Apparently, things in preambles don't really have any meaning for these folks. What other things can you think of that are mentioned only in preambles to documents? (Hint: Herman Cain doesn't know which documents they come from)

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Tuesday, July 12, 2011 1:16 AM

FREMDFIRMA



The local term for that is "Whafuck?".

But don't waste your time trying to make sense of it, all you'll get is a mental divide-by-zero.
I put my effort into preventing these lunatics from getting in a position to force their insanity down our throats via the guns of the State.
And make no mistake, that *IS* their intention, so while we're ridiculing them, consider well how UN-funny that can be when it comes to visit YOU, with the full weight of "The Law" behind it.

Two good, fairly recent examples.

Metro Detroit's rules against food trucks leave a sour taste
http://www.detnews.com/article/20110614/OPINION03/106140361/Metro-Detr
oit%E2%80%99s-rules-against-food-trucks-leave-a-sour-taste


Oak Park Woman Faces 93-Days in Jail For Planting Vegetable Garden
http://www.myfoxdetroit.com/dpp/news/local/julie-bass-of-oak-park-face
s-misdemeanor-charge-for-vegetable-garden-20110630-wpms


And that doesn't even go into the insane-troll-logic of Sheriff Clayton having medical marijuana cards run off the same machine which makes the "real" ones, and then busting dispenseries for having accepted them when there's no bloody way to tell the difference cause there ISN'T ANY - all cause HE don't like the law, to which I told him, to his face and personally - "YOU, do not MAKE the law, you enforce provisions OF it, at our behest as a paid employee!", which... come to think of it, prolly had something to do with that some other recent hassles, grrrr.

But anyhow, this bullshit isn't so cute when someone rams it down your throat on a gunbarrel, and kool-aid drinking wackos who think their own party can do no wrong are more that willing to install folk even as insane as this to positions of power...

So you gotta think to yourself, is there *really* any negotiation with such folk, whether it be insane politicians or the rabid partisans that support them no-matter-what ?
And if not, THEN WHAT.
Cause after the fact is a piss-poor time to do something about it.

Just sayin.

-Frem

I do not serve the Blind God.

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Wednesday, July 13, 2011 2:00 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Also of note in that "pledge" that the righties are signing is the pledge of adultery that is found in the footnotes. It may come as a somewhat rude surprise to Ms. Bachmann to discover that she signed papers admitting to adultery in her past.

Look up the pledge ( The Marriage Vow: A Declaration of Dependence upon MARRIAGE and FAMILY ) and check out the footnotes, especially footnote 9, which contains this gem:

Quote:

No signer herein claims to be without past wrongdoing, including that of adultery.



Hmmmm... It's going to be really awkward if Michelle and her husband were both cheating with the same guy.

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Wednesday, July 13, 2011 4:59 PM

FREMDFIRMA



Speaking of insane troll logic, medical marijuana and the only difference between cops and crooks being percieved legitimacy, THIS.

I had to dredge it up cause it was a while back, but they're STILL doing this.
http://www.theagitator.com/2011/01/20/so-how-is-this-different-from-ar
med-robbery
/
Quote:

Earlier this month, police in Oakland County, Michigan raided a medical marijuana dispensary in the town of Oak Park. The deputies came in with guns drawn and bulletproof vests, with at least one wearing a mask.

They made no arrests, but they did clean the place out. They confiscated all of the dispensary’s cash on hand and—in a particularly thuggish touch—also took all of the cash from the wallets and purses of employees and patients.


Yes, the same Oak Park which is throwing someone in jail for a vegetable garden.

Worse is that last December, the Wayne County and Detroit Police decided that Walmart parking lots were a "known drug area" and were jumping folk and searching them without cause, then seizing any cash they found under these forfeiture provisions, essentially robbing xmas shoppers, most of whom were low income and that was money they were saving up for a whole damn year.
And just to go completely beyond the pale, the bastards were LAUGHING about it in official correspondence - not one has been so much as reprimanded.

So when a guy with a gun threatens you and takes all your money - does it really MATTER whether he had a badge and a spiffy uniform ?
Does that give him some kind of divine right ?
Cause the notion that it does - THAT, is insane troll logic.

And don't even get me started on the cowardice of "officer safety", oh no...
http://old.news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20110711/od_nm/us_restaurants_crime
Quote:

The rule comes in the wake of a drive-by shooting in May at the Texas Fried Chicken and Pizza restaurant, where an off-duty Newark police officer was killed.

But of course you could wax thirty of us "little people" and the cops wouldn't care...

Which relates to the above, since I was standing on the sidewalk just outside during one of those idiotic raids over here in this county, thanks to that jackass Clayton - and one of the cops started moving towards me before he recognized me, then stopped short and found something else to do when I moved one hand behind me(1) - not just punks, but gutless punks, besides.

(1) Not too long ago I subbed in as an instructor for an unofficial shooting class, and some of the local PD was in attendance, to their credit, and during this I made a demonstration of cluster-fire, in which a lister bag full of sand was dropped and the challenge was to hit it as many times as possible before it hit the ground...
After which Claytons goons decided it was a real good idea to be very polite to me.

-Frem

I do not serve the Blind God.

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Thursday, July 14, 2011 8:10 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Gawd Frem, that's insane! I'm sure glad I live where I do... It should be made VERY public...or wouldn't that change things anyway?

It will be interesting when the next candidate who signed that is found screwing someone but his wife. But then, that's never bothered them in the past, so why should it bother them now?

Sometimes people amaze me. Not often, because my expectations are so damned low...


Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off



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Thursday, July 21, 2011 3:33 AM

NEWOLDBROWNCOAT


Went by the Family Leader site this morning. the paragraph about children being better off in slavery is still there.

There was a footnote attached to that claim. I followed it up to the original study. In a quick scan of the study, I did not find a statement of their claim.

Starting to sound like they made the whole thing up, and aren't willing to follow up on their statement that they would remove that part.

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Thursday, July 21, 2011 5:34 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Gee; who exactly is surprised? I think they definitely made it up, just out of their "mentality", then had to backtrack. You hear some pretty obviously stupid things come out of politico's mouths. Like the guy a while back who said when things were segregated it wasn't "that bad". It's how a person thinks, in my opinion, and that they elieve everyone thinks the same, until they're caught up short.

Thanx for checking that out; I did wonder.


Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off



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Thursday, July 21, 2011 7:27 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by Niki2:
Gee; who exactly is surprised? I think they definitely made it up, just out of their "mentality", then had to backtrack. You hear some pretty obviously stupid things come out of politico's mouths. Like the guy a while back who said when things were segregated it wasn't "that bad". It's how a person thinks, in my opinion, and that they elieve everyone thinks the same, until they're caught up short.

Thanx for checking that out; I did wonder.


Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off







Ah, yes - that was good ol' boy Haley Barbour, who was recounting his days when schools were segregated, and how it really wasn't that bad - FOR HIM! He remembers those days fondly.

"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill

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Thursday, July 21, 2011 11:39 AM

RIONAEIRE

Beir bua agus beannacht


People are weird.

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya

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Friday, July 22, 2011 9:00 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Boy, Riona, you got THAT right!


Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off



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