REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

So, the US has fired 100 + tomahawk cruise missiles at Libya...

POSTED BY: AURAPTOR
UPDATED: Sunday, March 27, 2011 11:41
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Saturday, March 19, 2011 2:54 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


We, along with a coalition of UN forces, now have 'skin in the game'.

What will Qaddafi do? I'm guessing it won't bring him to the table, yet. Might take a direct hit, like Reagan tried, to finally do this guy in.

Does Qaddafi pull a crazy Ivan, and really do some thing stupid ? I mean, he's already shelled and bombed his own people... civilians, not just rebel forces.

I'm hoping this assault ... well, I'm not sure what to think.

Obviously, I say we want the slaughter of civilians to cease. But after Qaddafi, what next ?


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Saturday, March 19, 2011 3:05 PM

MAGONSDAUGHTER


I just started another thread on this. PAY ATTENTION!!

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Saturday, March 19, 2011 3:09 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by Magonsdaughter:
I just started another thread on this. PAY ATTENTION!!



Pardon. Missed it. Also, my post of 100 cruise missiles launched was, I thought, more news breaking.


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Saturday, March 19, 2011 3:12 PM

MAGONSDAUGHTER


I posted it about 20 minutes ago. Not to worry, it needed a thread.

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Saturday, March 19, 2011 3:23 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by Magonsdaughter:
I posted it about 20 minutes ago. Not to worry, it needed a thread.



This site needs a 'firsties' pin, or something, to reduce such duplicate topic postings.

Qaddafi is now talking smack...this should be interesting.

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Saturday, March 19, 2011 3:48 PM

KPO

Sometimes you own the libs. Sometimes, the libs own you.


I'm pleased about the intervention, so far.

It's my opinion that the world could not do nothing here - and with Gaddafi's tanks rolling into Benghazi I would say the action has come just in time.

It's not personal. It's just war.

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Saturday, March 19, 2011 7:09 PM

FREMDFIRMA



Lemme get this straight - we just launched over a hundred Tomahawks, at a country in which both the government, AND the rebels, rather passionately want us to stay the fuck out of it, with no declaration of war, no vote in congress, just...
Because we could ?

WHISKEY, TANGO, FOXTROT, OVER ?!

Not to mention the goddamn things cost about a 600 grand a pop, so that's $60,000,000.00 USD down the pisser right there, and for what ?

How many americans are gonna lose out to fund the warfare-welfare war machine before we call these dicks on it ?
Cause I am willing to call em on it NOW.
(and have been doing so a while...)

This is an act of war, taken in an aggressive fashion unto a country which has not done anything to US, personally or nationally, in the immediate sense - and if one thinks not closing Gitmo is sufficient grounds to impeach Obama - something which I happen to agree with Rappy about, mind you, despite that the very notion causes a vague feeling of nausea and disorientation...

Then this most CERTAINLY qualifies, especially if any of those missles were aimed at civilian infrastructure, despite whatever bullshit excuses for it - that constitutes a goddamn war crime, and those who gave the orders should be impeached, and those who followed them arrested.

Period.

-Frem

I do not serve the Blind God.

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Sunday, March 20, 2011 2:38 AM

FREMDFIRMA



Would someone like to explain to me why we targeted Al-Tajura and Saladin Hospitals, and a Tripoli medical clinic ?
Cause I'd really fucking like some of our resident warmongers to explain that one to me, I would.
(Pull up a map of the conflict zones, and notice how FAR away those are from them.)
What's next, shelling their grade schools with white phosphorus ?

Not to mention I am starting to suspect this is even less about protecting the rebels than claimed, not that I bought that claim in the first place - as it is about stripping BOTH of their defenses so we can roll in and fucking loot the place like we did Iraq, since we can't bait UN inspectors into handily doing it for us any more.

In fact, when I look at this situation right now the picture that comes most vividly to mind is that kid in 1978 being disarmed by the principal, and shortly after carried out in a body bag - I assure you the rebels won't be thanking us for our "help" when we start carrying out our terror campaign against them and making them wish they had Ghadafi back...

Case in point, this from Seeyra, a bit late cause we have communications problems again, due to the habit of american forces "accidently" wacking the few folk who speak english that RAWA has.
http://www.rawa.org/temp/runews/2011/03/16/night-raids-by-us-special-f
orces-anger-afghans.html


Sooner or later the rest of the world is gonna get its shit together, and do something about us - provided we don't clean up our act in the meantime...
And yanno, right now I am having more than a bit of trouble deciding what side of that i'd be on.

-Frem

I do not serve the Blind God.

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Sunday, March 20, 2011 2:57 AM

CANTTAKESKY


Quote:

Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
Then this most CERTAINLY qualifies,

Agreed. My God.

What is fucking wrong with us.



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Sunday, March 20, 2011 3:16 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Actually Frem, the rebels want us, want the rest of the world, to intervene and stop Muammar from bombing the civilians. Don't know what you've been watching, but Egypt isn't Libya.


But be assured, Barack has said no ground troops will be used. So we got that going for us. Which is nice.

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Sunday, March 20, 2011 4:33 AM

PIZMOBEACH

... fully loaded, safety off...


Not sure what exactly was said in those secret, "high level talks," but I can imagine a scenario where Sarkozy pushed our buttons, "you're always talking about having a coalition and now you don't want to join in? I'm sending in planes with or without you. How will that look??" So, not to look like a poser and to make sure we still appear like a decisive "World Leader," Obama and Clinton relented with the "no ground troops" added in the end (like that matters). Spineless imho.
We've been in Afghanistan for 9? 10? years? WITH ground troops and tanks and bases and we can't unf*ck that place, so who's the genius that thought this would be quick and easy?
Good news! Turns out Al-Qaida's on our side! Someone should make a reality show.

http://www.jpost.com/MiddleEast/Article.aspx?id=212003


Scifi movie music + Firefly dialogue clips, 24 hours a day - http://www.scifiradio.com

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Sunday, March 20, 2011 4:52 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


By the way, this weekend marked the 8th anniversary of our ilegal invasion and occupation of Iraq.

If you were wondering what to get someone for an eighth anniversary, the answer would be "cruise missiles".

"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill

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Sunday, March 20, 2011 5:03 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:
By the way, this weekend marked the 8th anniversary of our invasion of Iraq.

If you were wondering what to get someone for an eighth anniversary, the answer would be "cruise missiles".



Corrected that for you.

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Sunday, March 20, 2011 5:05 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:
Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:
By the way, this weekend marked the 8th anniversary of our illegal invasion and occupation of Iraq.

If you were wondering what to get someone for an eighth anniversary, the answer would be "cruise missiles".



Corrected that for you.



I had it right the first time.

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Sunday, March 20, 2011 5:28 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:
I had it right the first time.



Which only shows your delusion, that you actually believe that.

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Sunday, March 20, 2011 12:07 PM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


While still on the fence and nervous about the implications,
Quote:

I'm pleased about the intervention, so far.

It's my opinion that the world could not do nothing here - and with Gaddafi's tanks rolling into Benghazi I would say the action has come just in time.

Doing nothing would signal to the other dictators having problems in the region that they can slaughter their civilians and the world doesn't care. And hey ho, the "founding fathers" fought the British over tyrannical rule, who are we to sit in judgment against these?

The thing I wonder about is "why France?" Why are they so head-up about getting into this? I'm sure someone here has an idea, I don't, but boy, they were REALLY gung-ho to get in there...

Saying "No ground troops" doesn't mean anything to me; if things drag on, who knows? I hear "we" plan to take a less prominent role once the no-fly zone is accomplished, but only time will tell.

I don't equate this to Iraq OR Afghanistan. Afghanistan, we really were going after the guys who did 9/11; Iraq, we were giving Dumbya what he wanted and it WAS an invasion, whether illegal or not. In this case, yes, they HAVE been begging for help, especially a no-fly zone, for quite some time. They don't want us invading, and I hope nobody does, but cutting off Ghadafi's ability to bomb them? I'm okay with that.

My little hope is that they bomb enough of Ghadafi's mercenaries that those guys figure it's not worth the bucks and go home. Without them, I think it gets close to a fair fight. But then what do I know? It's just my opinion, as valid and omniscient as anyone else's.


Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off



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Monday, March 21, 2011 2:58 AM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up


Quote:

Originally posted by Fremdfirma:

Would someone like to explain to me why we targeted Al-Tajura and Saladin Hospitals, and a Tripoli medical clinic ?



Have any cites for this aside from the multiple sites running the same copy of one article based on reports from un-named "Lybian sources"?

"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Monday, March 21, 2011 3:32 AM

PEACEKEEPER

Keeping order in every verse


Quote:

Originally posted by Niki2:
While still on the fence and nervous about the implications,
Quote:

I'm pleased about the intervention, so far.

It's my opinion that the world could not do nothing here - and with Gaddafi's tanks rolling into Benghazi I would say the action has come just in time.

Doing nothing would signal to the other dictators having problems in the region that they can slaughter their civilians and the world doesn't care. And hey ho, the "founding fathers" fought the British over tyrannical rule, who are we to sit in judgment against these?

The thing I wonder about is "why France?" Why are they so head-up about getting into this? I'm sure someone here has an idea, I don't, but boy, they were REALLY gung-ho to get in there...

Saying "No ground troops" doesn't mean anything to me; if things drag on, who knows? I hear "we" plan to take a less prominent role once the no-fly zone is accomplished, but only time will tell.

I don't equate this to Iraq OR Afghanistan. Afghanistan, we really were going after the guys who did 9/11; Iraq, we were giving Dumbya what he wanted and it WAS an invasion, whether illegal or not. In this case, yes, they HAVE been begging for help, especially a no-fly zone, for quite some time. They don't want us invading, and I hope nobody does, but cutting off Ghadafi's ability to bomb them? I'm okay with that.

My little hope is that they bomb enough of Ghadafi's mercenaries that those guys figure it's not worth the bucks and go home. Without them, I think it gets close to a fair fight. But then what do I know? It's just my opinion, as valid and omniscient as anyone else's.


Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off



Niki, the French are going in,in conjunction with the British.We signed a military coalition treaty last year, so if military action is required from either side, then the coalition is pretty much obliged to cooperate.
Again, we get the argument that we are only hitting Libya because of "OIL".Well, IMO that is a perfect reason to go in.If Gaddafi decides to turn of the gas pipes, then this country is fucked. When will people realise that oil and gas aren't luxury items. They are absolutely vital for survival.If some despot decides to cut off the supplies, then it fucks us all up.

Peacekeeper---keeping order in every verse!!!

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Monday, March 21, 2011 4:04 AM

DREAMTROVE


Quote:

Originally posted by Magonsdaughter:
I just started another thread on this. PAY ATTENTION!!


Magon, How about linking said thread?
Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:
This site needs a 'firsties' pin, or something, to reduce such duplicate topic postings.


Yes, it really does. Something like a "Merge topics" function.
Quote:

Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
WHISKEY, TANGO, FOXTROT, OVER ?!


ROFL. Yes, Obama started another war. It's what presidents do. Which is why we need to get rid of the position.

Targeting hospitals might be a strategy, we seem to do it enough. I figure that if our tactic is attrition, that passes people's tolerance level much faster if there are no hospitals.


Rap, a little irony: This is the one point where you could attack Obama and everyone would agree with you.

Pizmo, I don't think we listen to France

Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:
If you were wondering what to get someone for an eighth anniversary, the answer would be "cruise missiles".



In a sick way, that was pretty funny.

Mike, Rap...

In your petty infighting, how could either of you miss that the period goes *inside* of the quotation marks.

Quote:

Originally posted by Niki2:
Afghanistan, we really were going after the guys who did 9/11



And that you really believe this.

You know, I never see your comments, now purple, once teal, in "Comic Sans" Does anyone else?

I've been thinking of adopting a color.

How about green?

So, here's how I see it: All these non-MEFTA countries have to be brought in, and those that won't sign, well, they need regime change. When Morocco joined and we invaded Afghanistan, I really began to get a scope of this union, and had to look up the map, and yep, all the arab world, straight across N. Africa and the Middle East.

Now they're losing the name because of name confusion, there was also a proposed Mediterranean economic free trade association. Lately it's been called FTA, but you can't pronounce that. It's moving to a union anyway, MEU? But this is all besides the point.

Or blue?

What Muslim nation in its right mind is going to enter into a single economy with Israel? Who, after all, is going to own the balance of issuing power, the same way NY did in the federal reserve or Germany did in the EU. It's regional economic dominance, plain and simple.




That's what a ship is, you know - it's not just a keel and a hull and a deck and sails, that's what a ship needs.

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Monday, March 21, 2011 5:35 AM

BYTEMITE


Not necessarily unsourced, but not particularly trustworthy. It was Gadhafi's Secretary General, al-Zawi.

This is compared to the official stance of the UN and US which is basically that they don't believe that there's been collateral damage.

So, both sides of the story are propaganda. Of course there's been collateral damage, there always is. Until the international force releases it's own report on what they did and didn't hit, the other report at least has the advantage of naming targets that were supposedly hit.

It may well prove to be untrue in the days to come, but if the Red Cross is anything to go by, accidental hits and civilian casualties are a major concern. They keep getting pulled out because the conflict is too hot.


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Monday, March 21, 2011 9:05 AM

CANTTAKESKY


Quote:

Originally posted by Bytemite:
It was Gadhafi's Secretary General, al-Zawi.

Where did you find this?

All I could find is the author of the news release is Mahdi Darius Nazemroaya, apparently a Canadian sociologist who writes for the "Centre for Research on Globalization" which is founded by a Canadian economist. (Wow, I never knew there were Canadian conspiracy theorists! You go, Canucks.)
http://www.voltairenet.org/auteur124226.html?lang=en

He doesn't identify the contacts who gave him this hospital attack story.



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Monday, March 21, 2011 11:30 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


As to hitting hospitals, etc., I won’t believe a damned word that comes out of Libya or Ghadafi. He’s lied so many times thus far that he has ZERO credibility, and I think it’s disgusting that any news service would take him seriously unless one of their people saw something for themselves. Last night he was STILL claiming he was honoring the cease fire, and he’s claimed citizens were killed in the bombing. The first has been definitively disproven, and the second strikes me as more Ghadafi-ism, nothing more. So I agree with Geezer; I’d need some kind of reputable confirmation from other than a Libyan source, because also it DOESN’T make sense.

Of course both sides are propaganda, that’s how it works. But if I have to choose one to believe, it ain’t gonna be Ghadafi or anyone speaking for him!

PK, I know about that, my question was why France was SO gung ho. They pushed more than any other country as far as I know, and they had jets in there doing the no-fly zone before anyone else I KNOW. That’s why I was wondering. As to oil, didn’t oil companies pull out of Libya before, and we kinda survived? I seem to remember that, but I could be wrong, or it might have been different for you guys across the Pond. Either way, I disagree with everything you said on the subject, vehemently with the statement we should invade for oil.

DT, you don’t see comic sans unless it’s on your own computer. I know many don’t see it, but it’s my “signature font”, so I use it. I was a desktop publisher, remember, so I enjoy all the little bells and whistles.

As to your opinion on why we went into Afghanistan, and NAFTA, I agree to disagree. You’re entitled to your opinion, but I think it’s wrong.

p.s., I like the green...it’s real sharp and easy to read ;o)

Just as an aside, CTS, your use of “Canucks”. I was told by Gino long ago when I called him that, that it was a diss to Canadians. I believed him at the time, but since then have heard CANADIANS refer to themselves that way, so I no longer buy it. Apparently Gino took it as one, but to me it’s a diminutive like Brits or Ozzies or Yanks. Just sayin’.

While on the subject of vocabulary, does anyone know what the accepted spelling of Ghadafi IS? Or maybe I should say "MOST" accepted. I've seen everything from Gaddafi to Gadhafi to Ghadaffi to Q'dafi to Khadafi...it took me a couple of typings to "get" LIbYa, but his name defeats me. It's even different depending on which news station you're watching! I know their alphabet is difficult to translate, but surely they'd try to at least come up with SOME agreed-upon spelling!


Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off



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Monday, March 21, 2011 1:19 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Posted by DT:



Mike, Rap...

In your petty infighting, how could either of you miss that the period goes *inside* of the quotation marks.



Well, we also haven't pointed out that you continually misuse the word "populous" when you really mean "populace"; maybe we're slipping...

"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill

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Monday, March 21, 2011 1:40 PM

BYTEMITE


http://www.digtriad.com/news/national/article/167226/175/Libya-Western
-Forces-Hit-Civilian-Targets


Most of the sources at least agree that the information comes from the Gadhafi controlled Libyan television network.

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Monday, March 21, 2011 1:47 PM

CANTTAKESKY



Thank you, Byte.

Still, I wonder if the CGR report is true, despite being corroborated by Al-Zawi. I guess time will tell. Hopefully, time will tell.



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Monday, March 21, 2011 1:54 PM

BYTEMITE


I'm not discounting it yet. Like I said, they're the only ones who have provided any kind of information. I don't think it's very trustworthy and probably will be wrong, since they do have plenty of reason to lie, but it's all we have to go on.

If the force wants to win hearts and minds, they've got to document what they've hit. We should hold our own forces to the highest standard, so any report that we've hit a hospital, no matter if it's from the enemy, is troubling.

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Monday, March 21, 2011 1:55 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by Niki2:

While on the subject of vocabulary, does anyone know what the accepted spelling of Ghadafi IS? Or maybe I should say "MOST" accepted. I've seen everything from Gaddafi to Gadhafi to Ghadaffi to Q'dafi to Khadafi...it took me a couple of typings to "get" LIbYa, but his name defeats me. It's even different depending on which news station you're watching! I know their alphabet is difficult to translate, but surely they'd try to at least come up with SOME agreed-upon spelling!



On that subject, I think it was NBC's Richard Engel who was talking about that, and joking about how verbose Khadafi is, and how elusive he can be at the same time, and relating a story about ASKING him, point blank, in an interview, how HE spells his name. He said Khadafi spoke for 45 minutes about it, and never answered the question, nor even really gave any clues.

So if you're looking for any help from the man himself, you're shit outta luck. Sorry.

(I thought it was a pretty funny story, though; can't remember if it was Engel or someone else, but still funny regardless.)

"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill

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Monday, March 21, 2011 2:28 PM

CANTTAKESKY


Go Kucinich.

http://kucinich.house.gov/news/documentsingle.aspx?documentid=229992

Quote:

“While the action is billed as protecting the civilians of Libya, a no-fly-zone begins with an attack on the air defenses of Libya and Qaddafi forces. It is an act of war. The president made statements which attempt to minimize U.S. action, but U.S. planes may drop U.S. bombs and U.S. missiles may be involved in striking another sovereign nation. War from the air is still war.

“It is also worth noting that the President did not comment upon nor recognize that the Libyan government had declared a ceasefire in response to UNSC Resolution 1973. It was appropriate for the UN to speak about the situation. It was appropriate to establish an arms embargo and freeze Qaddafi’s considerable financial assets. But whether the U.S. takes military action is not for the UN alone to decide. There is a constitutional imperative in the United States with respect to deciding to commit our U.S. armed forces to war.

“Congress should be called back into session immediately to decide whether or not to authorize the United States’ participation in a military strike. If it does not, the action of the President is contrary to U.S. Constitution. Article 1, Section 8 of the Constitution clearly states that the United States Congress has the power to declare war. The President does not. That was the Founders’ intent.

“I have sent a letter to Congressional leadership indicating that the national interest requires that Congress be called back quickly to Washington to exercise its Constitutional authority to determine whether our armed forces should participate in the UN mission. Both houses of Congress must weigh in. This is not for the President alone, or for a few high ranking Members of Congress to decide.

“It is hard to imagine that Congress, during the current contentious debate over deficits and budget cutting, would agree to plunge America into still another war, especially since America will spend trillions in total for the wars in Afghanistan, Iraq and incursions into Pakistan.

“The last thing we need is to be embroiled in yet another intervention in another Muslim country. The American people have had enough. First it was Afghanistan, then Iraq. Then bombs began to fall in Pakistan, then Yemen, and soon it seems bombs could be falling in Libya. Our nation simply cannot afford another war, economically, diplomatically or spiritually,” said Kucinich.





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Monday, March 21, 2011 2:56 PM

PIZMOBEACH

... fully loaded, safety off...


Yeah, I have a lot more to say on it but for now, Go Kucinich.
And... Didn't we *help* some rebels in Afghanistan when they were having issues with some Ruskies? How that end up working?
While I'm here... Do we have zero memory? It's not really even memory if it's happening now, is it?
This is the equivalent to Obama saying, "Yes, let's do Afghanistan again."
Oil? How much Alternative Energy R&D F*ck Oil Forever would 120 Tomahawks buy us?
Do we have any successes in the Middle East, as like even a modestly successful track record to point to? Usually, if you are going to hire someone for a job you want to see a positive resume: We have US Military: Vietnam:Fail, Iraq:Fail, and Afghanistan:Fail.

Scifi movie music + Firefly dialogue clips, 24 hours a day - http://www.scifiradio.com

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Monday, March 21, 2011 3:21 PM

DREAMTROVE


Niki

Green it is. Why would Afghanistan have anything to do with and NAFTA?

Mike

You have a poygnt

Kucinich,

Much better move than that tooth thing.

That's what a ship is, you know - it's not just a keel and a hull and a deck and sails, that's what a ship needs.

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Monday, March 21, 2011 3:38 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by pizmobeach:
Yeah, I have a lot more to say on it but for now, Go Kucinich.
And... Didn't we *help* some rebels in Afghanistan when they were having issues with some Ruskies? How that end up working?
While I'm here... Do we have zero memory? It's not really even memory if it's happening now, is it?
This is the equivalent to Obama saying, "Yes, let's do Afghanistan again."
Oil? How much Alternative Energy R&D F*ck Oil Forever would 120 Tomahawks buy us?
Do we have any successes in the Middle East, as like even a modestly successful track record to point to? Usually, if you are going to hire someone for a job you want to see a positive resume: We have US Military: Vietnam:Fail, Iraq:Fail, and Afghanistan:Fail.

Scifi movie music + Firefly dialogue clips, 24 hours a day - http://www.scifiradio.com




This. More, please. I'm with ya. Yeah, I know, I'm supposed to be cheering the war since it's Obama's baby (and I'd been assured that no black man would ever bomb Africa. Go figure), but I'm not really into this. UN wants it, let the UN take point.

Saying "their oil makes it worth it" is just BS. How'd that work in Iraq for the U.S.? Are we getting all that cheap oil from them? Did the war pay for itself? How much oil does the U.S. get from Libya? Europe gets about 2% of theirs from Libya. You can't do 2% better? Really?

We're being fed the story that Khadafi was killing his own people. How is *US* killing "his own people" somehow supposed to be a BETTER outcome for them? They're fucking DEAD, still, by his hand or ours, his bullets or our bombs.

Khadafi's a bad man, sure. He's a liar, and he's got blood on his hands. That makes him different from an American President... HOW, exactly?

"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill

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Monday, March 21, 2011 4:55 PM

BYTEMITE


EDIT: Meh, now I'm just rambling. Suffice to say, major mixed feelings.

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Monday, March 21, 2011 7:05 PM

DREAMTROVE


I find myself in complete agreement with Mike.

That's what a ship is, you know - it's not just a keel and a hull and a deck and sails, that's what a ship needs.

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Tuesday, March 22, 2011 5:17 AM

CANTTAKESKY


Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:
Khadafi's a bad man, sure. He's a liar, and he's got blood on his hands. That makes him different from an American President... HOW, exactly?

LOLOL. The people American presidents kill are all BAD people. (Like in True Lies.)

Here is a little humor on the situation.

Daily Show: Oliver - America's Freedom Packages
John Oliver demonstrates how America's freedom packages will turn any country's civil war into a catastro-tunity.
http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/mon-march-21-2011/america-s-freedom-
packages






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Tuesday, March 22, 2011 7:35 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Well, sheet, if the man won't tell us how to spell his own name, screw him.

My remarks about Afghanistan and NAFTA weren't meant to be connected; I was saying I disagree with your opinions on Afghanistan, and that I also disagree with your conclusions about NAFTA.

And uh, your green seems to be bleeding through, for me. I happened to see the copyright thing at the bottom and it's green...given what Rose said, I assume that means you didn't "close" the green font or something. It's no biggie for me, and I like people using colors...aside from my own obvious enjoyment of it, it lets me check out specific people's posts. My color lets me back up to where I last posted and read from there...that's my story and I'm sticking to it!


Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off



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Tuesday, March 22, 2011 8:13 AM

DREAMTROVE



MEFTA, not NAFTA.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/US_-_Middle_East_Free_Trade_Area

I didn't use the end tag because it didn't used to be necessary font=green, font=red, end font used to work quite well. I'm not seeing bleeding. Which version of the site are you seeing it, and link me a thread?


That's what a ship is, you know - it's not just a keel and a hull and a deck and sails, that's what a ship needs.

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Tuesday, March 22, 2011 9:05 AM

PIZMOBEACH

... fully loaded, safety off...


Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:

What will Qaddafi do? I'm guessing it won't bring him to the table, yet. Might take a direct hit, like Reagan tried, to finally do this guy in.

Does Qaddafi pull a crazy Ivan, and really do some thing stupid ? I mean, he's already shelled and bombed his own people... civilians, not just rebel forces.




He hasn't stayed in power for 42 years by being stupid, or easy to kill.

Looks like he's doing the one thing that "The Coalition Forces" (I hate that) don't want to see: he's fighting back:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/mar/22/libya-gaddafi-forces-offen
sive


Libya crisis: Defiant Gaddafi forces go on the offensive
• Latest Gaddafi onslaughts target Ajdabiya, Misurata and Zintan

"Muammar Gaddafi's armed forces are continuing to attack Libyan towns and cities despite three nights of western air strikes and another day of missile strikes.

Gaddafi's troops shelled rebels regrouping in the desert dunes outside the strategic eastern town of Ajdabiya, as well as civilians in the rebel-held western city of Misurata.

The onslaught came amid further wrangling over who should spearhead the western air campaign and the news that a US fighter jet had crashed in Libya, apparently because of mechanical failure."


Maybe he knows that as soon as one US boot hits the ground we'll riot, so he's doing everything that he can to force that.

Scifi movie music + Firefly dialogue clips, 24 hours a day - http://www.scifiradio.com

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Tuesday, March 22, 2011 9:41 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Just like me, DT, you probably won't see the problem...I never saw the problem with my commands until Rose mentioned it. I've only been on v.2 for a couple of weeks, and found it frustrating, but I do like the look so I'm trying to stay.

It's this specific thread where I'm seeing the green carry over--only to the copyright lines, tho'. It doesn't bother me, I just mentioned it because of what Rose said. Apparently we need a "close" command for EVERYTHING, or else it carries over to the next person's post. Frustrating, but I'm learning!

Pizmo, I disagree. I think he's stayed in power because he's crazy like a fox about staying in power, and has kept his population so under control, they weren't able to see there was any other way, and nobody ever organized to fight back.

I think it's pretty obvious the man is totally whacko, and has been for a long time. To me he's just a madman who won't give up no matter what unless someone takes him out, the U.S. doesn't come into it except as a good propaganda point, which he uses against ALL Western countries.


Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off



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Tuesday, March 22, 2011 9:57 AM

PIZMOBEACH

... fully loaded, safety off...


Quote:

Originally posted by Niki2:

Pizmo, I disagree. I think he's stayed in power because he's crazy like a fox about staying in power, and has kept his population so under control, they weren't able to see there was any other way, and nobody ever organized to fight back.

I think it's pretty obvious the man is totally whacko, and has been for a long time. To me he's just a madman who won't give up no matter what unless someone takes him out, the U.S. doesn't come into it except as a good propaganda point, which he uses against ALL Western countries.



I think I said pretty much that... "He hasn't stayed in power for 42 years by being stupid, or easy to kill."

Scifi movie music + Firefly dialogue clips, 24 hours a day - http://www.scifiradio.com

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Tuesday, March 22, 2011 11:24 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:



Mike, Rap...

In your petty infighting, how could either of you miss that the period goes *inside* of the quotation marks.



Because being overly anal and petty about such things is Kwickie's dept., not mine.

I'm more of a big picture, substance sort, while I leave mind numbing details like grammar to others. This is a message board, after all.

U no wat I meen ?

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Wednesday, March 23, 2011 6:42 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Yeah, you're right, Pizmo...I guess the idea of "not stupid" rankles with me, he's just SO insane, the concept of smart and insane together just seems so...y'know...WRONG!


Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off



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Wednesday, March 23, 2011 12:16 PM

DREAMTROVE


Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:
Quote:



Mike, Rap...

In your petty infighting, how could either of you miss that the period goes *inside* of the quotation marks.



Because being overly anal and petty about such things is Kwickie's dept., not mine.

I'm more of a big picture, substance sort, while I leave mind numbing details like grammar to others. This is a message board, after all.

U no wat I meen ?



Reminds me ...



That's what a ship is, you know - it's not just a keel and a hull and a deck and sails, that's what a ship needs.

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Wednesday, March 23, 2011 12:31 PM

MOCKROMANCER


Ghaddafi looks like the modern Micky Rourke and should be punished serverely for this crime against the eyes.

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Thursday, March 24, 2011 3:09 PM

RIONAEIRE

Beir bua agus beannacht


Well, if the Libyan rebels wanted us to come in and help then I'm okay with it, as long as we don't get too involved, we're tied up in two countries as it is, maybe we should impose a two country limit, say "I'm sorry we are already very busy, come back when we aren't in two other wars". Thoughts?

But seriously I'm okay with it as long as we don't get very involved and the rebels actually want us to help, I don't want us getting stuck there. I'm still into the idea of having a covert secret organization of super killer sniper people that goes and assassinates Qadaffi types when their people have had enough. It would be secret enough that they officially don't exist, then if someone came to the Americans and asked if we did it we could deny deny deny. The thing is that we signed something at some point that says we won't kill foreign leaders, why did we sign this? This would have been easier if we sent our secret guys in there, did the job and then let the rebels figure out what they're going to do now. I think I'm going to call said clandestine outfit the SSSS, oh wait, they can't be that now because I told you guys, back to the drawing board. You get the point.

And I think Raptor's spelling with a Q is close, that's how I saw it spelled on the news, for all the good that does, could still be totally wrong.

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya

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Thursday, March 24, 2011 5:45 PM

DREAMTROVE


He doesn't care how you spell his name in the Roman alphabet which he doesn't use.


That's what a ship is, you know - it's not just a keel and a hull and a deck and sails, that's what a ship needs.

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Thursday, March 24, 2011 6:30 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by RionaEire:
Well, if the Libyan rebels wanted us to come in and help then I'm okay with it, as long as we don't get too involved, we're tied up in two countries as it is, maybe we should impose a two country limit, say "I'm sorry we are already very busy, come back when we aren't in two other wars". Thoughts?

But seriously I'm okay with it as long as we don't get very involved and the rebels actually want us to help, I don't want us getting stuck there. I'm still into the idea of having a covert secret organization of super killer sniper people that goes and assassinates Qadaffi types when their people have had enough. It would be secret enough that they officially don't exist, then if someone came to the Americans and asked if we did it we could deny deny deny. The thing is that we signed something at some point that says we won't kill foreign leaders, why did we sign this? This would have been easier if we sent our secret guys in there, did the job and then let the rebels figure out what they're going to do now. I think I'm going to call said clandestine outfit the SSSS, oh wait, they can't be that now because I told you guys, back to the drawing board. You get the point.

And I think Raptor's spelling with a Q is close, that's how I saw it spelled on the news, for all the good that does, could still be totally wrong.

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya




We still have those guys. Just not "officially". Gerald Ford signing that pledge to not assassinate other leaders was him kind of hoping that maybe folk would quit taking pot-shots at HIM. Nearly worked.

But really, it was all about plausible deniability. We signed a pledge - surely we wouldn't assassinate anyone after that, right? Well, unless his name was Saddam. Or Osama.

"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill

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Friday, March 25, 2011 2:08 AM

FREMDFIRMA



Riona, we have those guys, the problem is that they are utterly incompetent, prefer to do it to americans who mouth off too much, and have devolved into a protection racket of ham handed goons.

Consider for a moment, all the billions and billions poured down the pisshole that is the CIA, NSA and others, and they cannot even in the most minimal sense perform their assigned function: case in point, the inability to confirm where missles we fired even hit - what the fuck do we pay all that into NRO for, then, but oh, wait, yeah, there it is again, instead of being focused on potential hostile countries all the damn spy satellites are aimed HERE, to snoop on and harrass journalists, protestors, and help whichever cabal is in power collect political dirt on the ones that want to be - but most especially journalists and protesters, especially the ones who question why they need so much fucking money if all they *DO* is shit on their so-called protectees.

While not as bad as it is now, this was known back in the late 70's, when JCOS had to roll up their *OWN* off-books, off-budget intel group, ISA - in order to get even the simplest damn intel, like the floorplans and location of the doors and potential guards of the building the hostages in iran were in, which the CIA, NSA and others could somehow NOT manage to do via a combination of complete incompetence backed up by a political desired to chase the democrats out of office so strong they were rather hoping those hostages would be massacred, since they were still at the time very pissed off over being called on the carpet for their shenanigans via the Pike and Church Committees.

I mean, when some washed up security guard with internet access can get a local to port them a webcam feed, for free - why exactly are we spending billions and billions on a spy network that DOESN'T work, cause it's full of idiot hoo-rah mighty-whitey jackboot christian crusader wannabes who not only cannot even comprehend the peoples they're supposed to keep tabs on, because of this are utterly incapable of inserting agents who don't stand out like a fucking sore thumb - something Erik Prince learned to his chagrin when his big, white, powerlifter no-necks he sent into somalia kinda stood out a bit...

And a satellite and surveillence network that not only seems to be aimed in the wrong fucking direction, but due to its massive dragnet and overreaching nature, is buried in such a plethora of junk data it's useless from an intelligence perspective whatsoever.

Not to mention in large part due to the things above, there's about no damn chance any foreign national would work with us as an agent or source, but also due to trying to hang them out to dry or set them up like we tried to do to Emad Salem - the only ones who ever did work with us were shitheads using the obviously, blatantly bogus intel they were handing us to fuck us over, like Chalabi and Curveball did.

Besides which, there's that whole torture thing, which is downright useless for getting actionable intel and has much more to do with extracting false confessions for political reasons, and feeding the inherent sadism and racial/religious intolerances of the shitheels we've staffed out alphabet goon squads with, who are again, notoriously incompetent - case in point, has the TSA *ever* caught a real terrorist that wasn't an FBI plant ?

In fact, again, the World Trade Center, 1993, WHO gave those asshats the bomb, hmm?

It's time to face the facts, our "State Security" is every bit as useless, corrupt, malicious and incompetent as any third world country, which we are fast becoming in part due to that - and Ghadafis intel and jackboot people OUTCLASS ours in skill and efficiency, ergo, our idiot stand-out-like-sore-thumbs, broad-fucking-daylight-helicopter-drop "covert" (see also: Blackhawk Down, Mogadishu) operator hoo-rah neo-christian-crusaders would get chopped to pieces before they got a mile from the drop zone.

And it all costs billions and billions of YOUR money, most of which is spent on screwing YOUR freedoms into the ground, stifling YOUR knowledge of the world around you, protecting THEM, against YOU.


So, yanno, I don't think we should be wasting our efforts on Ghadafi when we have real enemies and terrorists right here in Langley and Quantico, which are far more of a threat to us both physically and economically.

-Frem

I do not serve the Blind God.

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Friday, March 25, 2011 1:25 PM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Riona, I've seen it spelled three different ways on three different TV stations! So who knows; I figure if the guy won't tell us himself, screw him. Screw him anyway, actually...

My opinion is pretty much the same as your on Libya, and I find it amusing that we're now "handing over" to NATO...to, uh, Canada??? Hooo...kay...

As to why we signed such a thing, it's good PR, and we always like the world to see us as the "good guys"...good guys wouldn't DO such things. But of course, as others have explained, we do have 'em and we do use 'em and it would be nice if we'd use 'em now. Which isn't very buddhist of me. My bad.

DT, thanx everso for the Lehrer. I miss him so, nobody will ever come close to his brilliance! "Poisoning the Pigeons in the Park" has always been a favorite of mine...so you get the prize for the first smile of the day (sorry, can't work up a laugh, still recuperating from hiking two days ago and EVERYTHING hurts. Well, maybe not my eyebrows...).


Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off



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Friday, March 25, 2011 8:43 PM

RIONAEIRE

Beir bua agus beannacht


Niki, none of us are perfect, I think most people have opinions now and again that aren't quite in line with their chosen belief system, I'm guilty as charged ...

Which brings me bakc to my grand assassination-of-foreign-dictators plan. So Frem, you and I can take point on this okay. We'll revamp the whole security system, you're smart about such things. You make good points above about how compromised our spy stuff is these days.

DT, yeah, good point about the alphabet thing, I guess we can just keep spelling it however we fancy. And those Tom Leher songs are funny, Poisoning Pidgeons in the Park is a good one, my dad would like that one because he hates it when pidgeons come and roost in our eves and crap all over the place.

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya

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Saturday, March 26, 2011 12:02 AM

MRSCOBB


I know I'm a little late to the party here, and I've been mostly lurking in the shadows. For now, the U.S. has agreed to keep boots off of Libyan soil, but I can tell you all that my sister's Navy Amphibious Ready Group just left Virginia toting a whole mess of the 22nd Marine Expeditionary Unit, 2200 of them to be more exact. These ships are equipped with air cushion boats for the Marines to get to land with whatever equipment they may need.

Here's a little news link announcing the deployment http://www.navy.mil/search/display.asp?story_id=59168

I can tell you this Marine group has participated in everything from battles in Afghanistan and Iraq, to pirate hunting, and humanitarian work in Haiti. They may have the background in the "humanitarian" sector, but these guys are mostly Infantry and Expeditionary forces. Aka-The guys who make stuff go boom.

To be quite honest, I can't see them sending over 2,000 Marines to sit in the Mediterranean and look pretty.

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