REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

Arizona Rep. Giffords shot, several wounded

POSTED BY: THEHAPPYTRADER
UPDATED: Tuesday, February 1, 2011 05:02
SHORT URL:
VIEWED: 7165
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Monday, January 10, 2011 8:34 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Sadly, it's not about censoring freedom of speech. It's about those in power having the sense of responsibility to not inflame the public with rhetoric which encourages violence for their own political purposes. They won't, so it's a uselss call for them to do otherwise. Things have changed in this country, and I don't know if we can go backwards and reclaim our sense of decency and responsibility, especially as we have acts like this over and over, and politicians haven't learned a damn thing from them. But then, of course, they don't WANT to learn; those who most advocate violence are the ones who will be least targeted, I'll bet on it.

There haven't been any cries that I'm aware of for violence coming from the left--not by public figures anyway, and they're the ones who affect people. All the "Second Amendment remedies", "shoot 'em down" and target symbols have come from the right; the left needs to get their act together, too, unquestionably, but it's the right who've been pushing violence.


Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off




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Monday, January 10, 2011 8:46 AM

STORYMARK


Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:
Quote:

Originally posted by SignyM:
Fucking right-wing assholes.




Choose and perish.



And there you have it.





Unsurprising to see our resident piece of shit siding with murder. Fuck you, Rappy.

"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."

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Monday, January 10, 2011 9:01 AM

THEHAPPYTRADER


Quote:

That's not politics, I'm just sayin'. The vast majority of them die by guns.


Not calling you a liar, but I'd kind of like some evidence on that statement. Sometimes these phrases like "more people have been killed in the name of God than for any other reason" seem true, but actually aren't, not by a long shot. I'll admit the gun statement sounds plausible though. Violence with guns is probably more likely to result in death than violence sans guns.

I agree with Frem on this issue. A gun is a tool, just like a knife, or even big muscles and martial arts. A gun is a dangerous equalizer, and something I will probably never own, but I have a hard time believing we'd all be safer if they took them away. We'd probably just see more people getting stabbed, or harmed/killed by other means.

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Monday, January 10, 2011 9:02 AM

KANEMAN


Quote:

Originally posted by Storymark:
Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:
Quote:

Originally posted by SignyM:
Fucking right-wing assholes.




Choose and perish.



And there you have it.





Unsurprising to see our resident piece of shit siding with murder. Fuck you, Rappy.

"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."




I don't see that in his post at all. If he wrote choose or perish, maybe. But, you'll see what you want...afterall you are an asshole.

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Monday, January 10, 2011 9:19 AM

RUE


"Seriously, how did you respond so fast? And don't say you got a notification, I do not think that feature has been working in quite some time."

I'm a fast reader b/c I don't need to sound out the letters. Difficult as that is for you to imagine b/c it's SO different from your personal experience, I know. It took me maybe 15 minutes to read down the entire thread - skipping PN's posts of course b/c they aren't worth the time.


"No problem, it was the least I could do for someone hanging on my every typed word."

I saw your precious little love note that out of the blue mentioned ME, BY NAME. If you hadn't done that - and frankly been so hilariously wrong so that I actually laughed out loud at you - I wouldn't even have responded.

So, what's this attraction you have for me ? After all these months you're still thinking of me ? HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ... wow, I must have made a far bigger impression on you than you ever did on me.

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Monday, January 10, 2011 9:24 AM

KANEMAN


Ruse....You are a puppet on a string and don't even know it.

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Monday, January 10, 2011 9:25 AM

RUE


Who let a fly in ? I hear this annoying buzzing ...

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Monday, January 10, 2011 9:33 AM

RUE


Wulf


Knowing how you feel about 'libruls', and women, and guns - let me point out some inconvenient facts - it was an older inoffensive woman, a democrat, sans gun - who stopped the slaughter when she grabbed the clip as Loughner was reloading. Some unarmed democrat little old lady was the quick-thinking, courageous hero of the day.


If you can get your neurons working at all - think on that a spell.


Oh, and just b/c I can't resist pointing out what a turd you are: as I recall you were all ready to start the shooting when a black president gave a rather putrid form of health care to the 'undeserving' (your word) 'them' (your word). You are ALWAYS ready to call on guns as your solution of choice for every problem and ill. And NOW you are calling for reason and restraint ? Are you a coward ? All mouth about revolution but ready to shit yourself when actual shots are fired ?

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Monday, January 10, 2011 10:09 AM

STORYMARK


Quote:

Originally posted by kaneman:
Quote:

Originally posted by Storymark:
Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:
Quote:

Originally posted by SignyM:
Fucking right-wing assholes.




Choose and perish.



And there you have it.





Unsurprising to see our resident piece of shit siding with murder. Fuck you, Rappy.

"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."




I don't see that in his post at all. If he wrote choose or perish, maybe. But, you'll see what you want...afterall you are an asshole.



Said by the person who just admitted earlier in the thread that they had never posted anything intelligent or worthwhile.

What makes you think anyone gives a shit what you have to say?



"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."

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Monday, January 10, 2011 10:26 AM

KANEMAN


Quote:

Originally posted by Storymark:
Quote:

Originally posted by kaneman:
Quote:

Originally posted by Storymark:
Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:
Quote:

Originally posted by SignyM:
Fucking right-wing assholes.




Choose and perish.



And there you have it.





Unsurprising to see our resident piece of shit siding with murder. Fuck you, Rappy.

"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."




I don't see that in his post at all. If he wrote choose or perish, maybe. But, you'll see what you want...afterall you are an asshole.



Said by the person who just admitted earlier in the thread that they had never posted anything intelligent or worthwhile.

What makes you think anyone gives a shit what you have to say?



"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."



What makes you think I care if anyone gives a shit what I have to say? asshole.

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Monday, January 10, 2011 11:21 AM

PIRATENEWS

John Lee, conspiracy therapist at Hollywood award-winner History Channel-mocked SNL-spoofed PirateNew.org wooHOO!!!!!!




Liberal Smear Machine Backfires After Alleged Gunman Found To Be Satanic Atheist, Abortion-Loving, Open-Border Illegal Alien Loving, Pot-Smoking Long-Haired Liberal Commie Left-Wing Democrat Homosexual Transvestite
http://www.infowars.com/liberal-smear-machine-backfires-after-gunman-f
ound-to-be-occultist-pot-smoking-left-winger
/


Animal rights lover volunteered at animal shelter before shooting Republicans

Shoot Out in Tuscon: Gun Owner Returns Fire at Giffords Massacre, Makes Citizen's Arrest of Shooter, as Cops Refuse to Allow Ambulances Help Victims
Mascara-wearing Fox News host Shepard Smith aghast that a MAN would fire back at a gunman in self-defense
http://www.infowars.com/return-fire-at-giffords-massacre/



Fox says "ex" Republican Giffords "sounds like a Republican" one week before her shooting:



Gun-banner Rep Carolyn McCarthy (D-NY) promising bill today banning high-capacity magazines used in shooting
http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0111/47338.html

ATF Plans Gun Registration in AZ and Border States
http://www.thenewamerican.com/index.php/usnews/constitution/5805-atf-p
lans-gun-registration-in-border-states


FBI Says Murdered Republican Judge Wanted to Talk to "Ex" Republican Giffords About Border Violence by Illegal Aliens, After He Killed President Clinton's Gun Registration Bill (US Supreme Court case of Sheriff Richard Mack vs U.S.)
http://www.politico.com/static/PPM156_pr_01092011_loughner.html
http://www.politico.com/blogs/joshgerstein/0111/Judges_final_actions_k
ey_to_federal_charge_for_his_murder.html


Top US Federal Judge Assassinated After Threat To Obama Agenda
A Foreign Intelligence Service (SVR) report circulating in the Kremlin today states that the top US Federal Judge for the State of Arizona was assassinated barely 72-hours after he made a critical ruling against the Obama administrations plan to begin the confiscation of their citizen’s private retirement and banking accounts in order to stave off their nations imminent economic collapse, and after having the US Marshals protecting him removed. The case being ruled on by Judge Roll, this report continues, was about bulk cash smuggling into or out of the United States that the Obama administration claimed was their right to seize under what are called Presidential Executive Orders, instead of using existing laws. The Obama administration used as support for their claim before Judge Roll, the SVR says, the seizing of all American citizens’ gold, in 1933, by President Franklin D. Roosevelt’s signing of Executive Order 6102, which was ruled at the time to be constitutional. The most chilling of these powers Obama has asserted for himself, however, are contained in Executive Order 13528 he signed nearly a year ago (January 10, 2010) creating a Council of Governors he has hand-picked to rule over the United States in place of its elected representatives when their next “disaster” strikes and orders them to begin “synchronization and integration of State and Federal military activities in the United States; and other matters of mutual interest pertaining to National Guard, homeland defense, and civil support activities.” United States of America v. $333,520.00 in United States Currency et al, Case Number: 4:2010cv00703, Filed: November 30, 2010
http://dockets.justia.com/docket/arizona/azdce/4:2010cv00703/568697/
http://www.thetotalcollapse.com/top-us-federal-judge-assassinated-afte
r-threat-to-obama-agenda
/

UNMANNED Border Crossings in USA:

Days after Giffords shooting, Feds announce plan to reopen UNMANNED border crossing
The unmanned port of entry will be monitored by immigration officials hundreds of miles away. U.S. citizens will scan their passports and the identity of Mexican nationals will be biometrically "confirmed" by self-serve computer...
http://travel.usatoday.com/destinations/dispatches/post/2011/01/unmann
ed-border-crossing-to-re-open-in-texas-big-bend-national-park/137926/1



Uncle Scam defends the Mexician border


Uncle Scam defends the Mexician border


West Alburg VT Unmanned Border Crossing
http://www.panoramio.com/photo/1578514


Angle Inlet MN Unmanned Border Crossing
http://www.panoramio.com/photo/1634523

But mere citizens get gateraped without crossing borders:







In wake of Giffords shooting, the mere act of questioning the government now being demonized
www.naturalnews.com/030954_Giffords_anti-government.html

Arizona Assassin Obsessed With Mind Control (as most mind-controlled slaves are)
http://www.infowars.com/arizona-assassin-obsessed-with-mind-control/

Quote:

Liberal fount AlterNet pointed to Loughner’s disjointed rants about currency in order to make the case he is a dangerous gold and silver “radical.” Mark Potok of the Southern Poverty Law Center argued that the idea of constitutional money was responsible for “so much violence in the 1990s. It’s linked to the core Patriot theory that the Federal Reserve is actually a private corporation run for the benefit of unnamed international bankers.”
http://www.alternet.org/story/149466/is_jared_loughner_a_right-wing_ex
tremist


"Plaintiff, who was injured by vehicle owned and operated by a federal reserve bank, brought action alleging jurisdiction under the Federal Tort Claims Act. The United States District Court for the Central District of California, David W. Williams, J., dismissed holding that federal reserve bank was not a federal agency within meaning of Act and that the court therefore lacked subject-matter jurisdiction. Appeal was taken. The Court of Appeals, Poole, Circuit Judge, held that federal reserve banks are not federal instrumentalities for purposes of the Act, but are independent, privately owned and locally controlled corporations."
-United States Court of Appeals, Ninth Circuit, No. 80-5905, Lewis v. United States, 680 F.2d 1239 (1982)
http://www.save-a-patriot.org/files/view/frcourt.html

"The banks have shown that they can't be trusted with the American economy. That's generally been the case, but now it's out in the open, $350-billion later [sic $27-trillion]. In 1913 the money power fo the country was taken away from the People, by Constitutional privilege it belongs to the Congress, but it was given up in the Federal Reserve Act. The Federal Reserve is no more 'federal' than Federal Express! Yet it has the power to determine the direction and use of money in our economy. If we could take that power back, and put Federal Reserve under Treasury, we start to be in a position of being able to control monetary policy on behalf of the United States people. We also have to address the issue of the fractional reserve system, which is how banks create money out of thin air. As they do that they've created the conditions where we have a Ponzi scheme collapsing of banks and the hedge funds together. We have to end the fractional reserve system."
-Congressman Dennis Kucinich
youtube.com/watch?v=1pVV4n2lKHk
http://www.infowars.com/bombshell-arizona-killer-very-liberal/

"There is no authority for a central bank. Ben Bernanke is the greatest counterfeiter the world has ever seen! Adolf Hitler was Time's Man of the Year too."
-Congressman Ron Paul MD, chairman of the House Banking Subcommittee seeking audit and elimination of the private "Federal" Reserve Bank Corporation
youtube.com/watch?v=gRZ-B14PEsc

"Not one dime of income taxes goes to support any federal program."
-President Ronald Reagan, right before George Bushes' CIA cousin John Hinkley Jr shot him (released from loonybin by George Bush Jr and Hussein Obama Soetoro)
youtube.com/watch?v=9nbMqQo4AYY




"Not a single issue voter, but if I was, gay rights would be it. I just want Democrats to be tough. And I wish Obama were tougher. That’s all. I’m a proud gay. I had favorite books: The Communist Manifesto."
-Jared Lee Loughner (or his sockpuppet)
www.businessinsider.com/jared-lee-loughner-2011-1

"If they bring a knife to the fight, we bring a gun."
-Hussein Obama Soetoro
http://www.politico.com/blogs/bensmith/0608/Obama_brings_a_gun_to_a_kn
ife_fight.html



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Monday, January 10, 2011 11:21 AM

WULFENSTAR

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg


Rue,

This was not a revolutionary moment. Just some fucknut with a brain full of bad wiring shooting randomnly at a target of oppurtunity.

Brave people, one a citizen with a pistol, brought him down. While most of the people couldn't figure out what was going on, or were playing dead, some people actually ACTED to stop this.

This is probably above your pay scale, and your mental capacity to understand.. but I thought I would give it a shot and put this into a perspective even you could get.

"Hope is a good thing, maybe the best of things, and no good thing ever dies"

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Monday, January 10, 2011 11:27 AM

WULFENSTAR

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg


"Well, I can appreciate the argument that anything can be used as a tool. But surely, to limit what kind of OBVIOUS tools can be used is common sense. A guy crashing a car into a crowd of people on purpose will have no escape clause. The car is easily seen, the occupant is easily identified, the amount of consequential evidence that remains after the fact is so vast that it would be virtually impossible for the assailant to get away with it even if he evaded capture at the time.
with a gun, you can hide behind a tree half a mile away, you can take out who you like and you don't even need the guts to do it face to face.
A guy having a bad day can kill who he likes without suffering the consequences of his actions. That's the big difference."


You know there IS a reason we revolted, and won against you guys... right?

By the way, didn't you have someone ride around with a shotgun shooting up your paradise recently?

Hows that "knife crime" thing working out?

Also, you must feel safe knowing that from the minute you step outside you have a camera on you every minute of every waking hour.. have they figured out a way to get you subjects to have cameras in your homes yet?



"Hope is a good thing, maybe the best of things, and no good thing ever dies"

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Monday, January 10, 2011 11:44 AM

MAGONSDAUGHTER


You know it took this to reach the news here, before I even opened this thread.

Sadly, 'gunman open fires and kills....' is such common news from the US, that if it weren't for the senator being shot it probably would barely be news.

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Monday, January 10, 2011 11:48 AM

PIRATENEWS

John Lee, conspiracy therapist at Hollywood award-winner History Channel-mocked SNL-spoofed PirateNew.org wooHOO!!!!!!


Jared Lee Loughner hires lawyer from CIA MKULTRA Unabomber
http://archives2011.gcnlive.com/Archives2011/jan11/AlexJones/0110111.m
p3



Dial 911 and Die: Granny tackles shooter first, cops nowhere to be found
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/2011/01/10/2011-01-10_heroes_
emerge_in_wake_of_evil_brave_bystanders_subdued_killer.html


A Florida man went on a shooting rampage convinced that imaginary enemies were after him. While he wasn't looking, an 89-year-old woman grabbed his ammo clip:
http://www.nbcnewyork.com/news/weird/Granny_Foils_Deranged_Gunman_All_
_National_.html


V for Vendetta shooter foiled by Granny
http://bossip.com/319772/319772raw-footage-of-gunman-storming-school-b
oard-shoots-it-up-before-killing-self-talks-about-wife-being-fired-video69691
/

Obamacare: The Case for Killing Granny
http://www.newsweek.com/2009/09/11/the-case-for-killing-granny.html




"Not a single issue voter, but if I was, gay rights would be it. I just want Democrats to be tough. And I wish Obama were tougher. That’s all. I’m a proud gay. I had favorite books: The Communist Manifesto."
-Jared Lee Loughner (or his sockpuppet)
www.businessinsider.com/jared-lee-loughner-2011-1

"If they bring a knife to the fight, we bring a gun."
-Hussein Obama Soetoro
http://www.politico.com/blogs/bensmith/0608/Obama_brings_a_gun_to_a_kn
ife_fight.html



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Monday, January 10, 2011 11:49 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Hey, Rue, good to see you. Haven't seen you around for a while, or so it seems. But you do know you're pissing into the wind, trying to communicate with Wulf and his ilk, don't you?

Quote:

Not calling you a liar, but I'd kind of like some evidence on that statement.
Happy, your wish is my command. I hope I noted HOMICIDE deaths, not deaths from illness, etc. So as concerns homicides, your wish is my command.
Quote:

Handgun homicides accounted for nearly all of the homicide rate, from 1985 to 1993, while homicide rates involving other weapons declined during that time frame.




Not the most recent data, but over our history, I think it's adequate to answer your question.
Quote:

You know there IS a reason we revolted, and won against you guys... right?
WHO guys? WHAT revolt? Do you consider it a "revolt" every time a house of Congress changes hands? Your fantasy worldis truly amazing, Wulf; the things you say are so unreal...
Quote:

Also, you must feel safe knowing that from the minute you step outside you have a camera on you every minute of every waking hour.. have they figured out a way to get you subjects to have cameras in your homes yet?
Are you somehow under the impression that we in America are any LESS under surveilance than any other country? I'd suggest you look around you next time you go anywhere.

ETA: While I'm against most attempts at gun-owning limitation (which would be as useless as prohibition), I WOULD be in favor of outlawing the clip this guy used. It held some 25 bullets, and he tried to change clips to keep going; if the clip had held less, maybe fewer would have died or been injured. What is the legitimate purpose of a semi-automatic which carries 25 bullets anyway??

ETAA: It's sad for me to see those who have something of value to contribute here sink to the level of those who don't. While I recogize the impulse, I'm sad to see you sounding like Mike and Sig, Rue. Which of course is ABSOLUTELY your right, just makes me sad to see you letting your button be pushed by those who have nothing to say anyway and are only HERE to push buttons.


Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off



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Monday, January 10, 2011 11:50 AM

RUE


"Brave people, one a citizen with a pistol, brought him down."

The person who acted FIRST and who ACTUALLY in REALITY stopped the shooting was an unarmed, older, democratic, woman. Try to get it straight this time, ok? I know it conflicts with your fantasy world of some dude with a (heee heee) 'big gun' being the hero of the day, but try to wrap your head around at least a little piece of actuality.

MEANWHILE, the guy with the gun was trying to figure out if he could get a good shot - considerations which cost him time - and in the end he decided he couldn't. Not only was the gun superfluous, it was an obstacle to action - no matter how much you try and spin it, little boy.

And BTW - the shooter is the exact reason for gun control, along with criminals and the underage. He's IS the epitome of the phrase 'nut with a gun.' But of course you are running screaming from something so reasonable as crazy people should not have guns, b/c this guy could just as well be - you.

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Monday, January 10, 2011 12:02 PM

WULFENSTAR

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg


Niki and Rue,

You just love assuming that people are criminals, with nefarious purpose, don't you?

Thats why you feel that people need to be "controlled".

Must control what people say, what people do...

River: "People don't like to be meddled with. We tell them what to do, what to think, don't run, don't walk. We're in their homes and in their heads and we haven't the right. We're meddlesome."

You both need to seriously reconsider yourselves, your lives, and your beliefs.



P.S.: Something you might remember. "I start fightin' a war, I guarantee, you'll see somethin' new."



"Hope is a good thing, maybe the best of things, and no good thing ever dies"

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Monday, January 10, 2011 12:09 PM

JONGSSTRAW


Quote:

Originally posted by Niki2:

I realy have only one thing to say. Jong is absolutely right, in my opinion, that
Quote:

those that justify and even advocate murder are without human redemption.
and the things I read here are a prime example of that.

Penny for the smart lady again, as you come in as a rare rational voice here.

Quote:

Personally, I would delete Sig's remark, because "fuking right-wing assholes" is merely typical for here and happens every day, from one side or the other

You shouldn't dismiss that so quickly, as it represents the exact same type of classless hatred that leads some people to kill other people. You certainly don't resort to using that level of gutter rhetoric here. And frankly, I'm very surprised to see Signy sink so low so quickly. Guess her break from RWED didn't help too much in the mellowing category.

Quote:


That anyone can write what Kane and Gino wrote is unconscionable and an expression of a sick mentality.


The fact that you wrote that gives me great hope for a future with less hostility. You spoke against two people from completely opposite sides for their same disgusting rationalizations and acceptance of murder. And they both want more of it. Charming. Who knew such bloodlust existed so close at hand?


Of course the smartest thing you wrote was:

"I really have only one thing to say. Jong is absolutely right". That's downright poetical.









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Monday, January 10, 2011 12:15 PM

RUE


Oh hi Niki -

I just cruised by to see what hornet's nest got stirred up in RWE. I've been away for quite a while, and will probably not be back for a long time. The reason being - I can't remember if someone else posted this or not but it really rings true - for as many years as I've been here, I see - with some heartening exceptions - most people posting the exact same things they posted years ago. Very few people change, very few people grow, very few people get beyond the childhood battles they lost.

Sorry about the snark, but it's pointless being reasonable with the unreasonable and sometimes it just feels good to take a small shot. Whatever I or anyone else posts seems to make no difference either way. After all if all attempts at rational argument AND all the snark over all the years have not made a dent, I can't see anything making a difference at this point.

I hope you're doing well, along with all the other posters I truly enjoy.

Keep flyin'

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Monday, January 10, 2011 12:21 PM

RUE


Wulf

I'd call you a retard but that's an insult to the handicapped.

WHAT categories of people did I say should not have guns ? Can you remember ? Try this on for size: the mentally insane, actual tried and convicted criminals, and the underage.

How is that that I am assuming 'people are criminals' ? Can you possibly answer that ?

Never mind.

Oh, and don't go away mad - just go away.



***************************************************************

Silence is consent.

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Monday, January 10, 2011 12:49 PM

WULFENSTAR

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg


And Im sure, in all the hulabaloo over "OMG HE HAD A GLOCK AND IT HAD A BIG OL SCSRY MAGAZINE AND WE HAVE TO BAN GUNS AND MAGAZINES....!"

This kind of got overlooked.



Good people vs bad/crazy people...

But lets go back to the circus of how "GUNS" kill people, and not the people operating them...



"Hope is a good thing, maybe the best of things, and no good thing ever dies"

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Monday, January 10, 2011 12:57 PM

RUE


Wulf

Did I say ban guns ? Did I say ban magazines ? Do you even know what I posted ? C'mon little boy, spell it out.

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Monday, January 10, 2011 1:30 PM

PEACEKEEPER

Keeping order in every verse


Quote:

Originally posted by TheHappyTrader:
Quote:

That's not politics, I'm just sayin'. The vast majority of them die by guns.


Not calling you a liar, but I'd kind of like some evidence on that statement. Sometimes these phrases like "more people have been killed in the name of God than for any other reason" seem true, but actually aren't, not by a long shot. I'll admit the gun statement sounds plausible though. Violence with guns is probably more likely to result in death than violence sans guns.

I agree with Frem on this issue. A gun is a tool, just like a knife, or even big muscles and martial arts. A gun is a dangerous equalizer, and something I will probably never own, but I have a hard time believing we'd all be safer if they took them away. We'd probably just see more people getting stabbed, or harmed/killed by other means.

A gun is NOTHING like a knife. Stick a knife in my hand and I would need the conviction to physically stand in front of that person and look into their face as I assaulted them. Put a gun in my hand and I can distance myself and shoot them from afar, without ever having to deal with them directly.
How many of us average people would be able to bring ourselves to stab somebody, compared to who would feel able to shoot. You are right, a gun is a VERY dangerous equaliser.It takes away the ability for any empathy whatsoever. If everybody in the world had a knife in their hand, I would feel much safer than all carrying a gun, thank you. There is a HUGE difference between the two.

Peacekeeper---keeping order in every verse!!!

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Monday, January 10, 2011 1:37 PM

KANEMAN


Quote:

Originally posted by rue:
"Brave people, one a citizen with a pistol, brought him down."

The person who acted FIRST and who ACTUALLY in REALITY stopped the shooting was an unarmed, older, democratic, woman. Try to get it straight this time, ok? I know it conflicts with your fantasy world of some dude with a (heee heee) 'big gun' being the hero of the day, but try to wrap your head around at least a little piece of actuality.

MEANWHILE, the guy with the gun was trying to figure out if he could get a good shot - considerations which cost him time - and in the end he decided he couldn't. Not only was the gun superfluous, it was an obstacle to action - no matter how much you try and spin it, little boy.

And BTW - the shooter is the exact reason for gun control, along with criminals and the underage. He's IS the epitome of the phrase 'nut with a gun.' But of course you are running screaming from something so reasonable as crazy people should not have guns, b/c this guy could just as well be - you.



The Ruse strikes again...

Wrong that lady was on fox. she said the story is wrong that the two guys tackled him then she got in.....but what would you know?

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Monday, January 10, 2011 1:45 PM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Yes, Wulf, we know you want no control whatsoever on guns, ammo, bombs, etc. We know you live in an “all-or-nothing”, “black-and-white” world, so there’s no use trying to communicate with you. To you, any form of moderation is “control”, but you rail against any whiff of controlling yourself or others who believe as you do. We have no desire to “control” others, merely to utilize common sense. People with police records and those with well-known mental health problems should be allowed to have guns, in your world, probably because you think you’d take them out with YOUR guns. Doesn’t actually work that way, in real life.

Goodness, Jong, I’m blushing. What lovely things to say, and we disagree almost all the time, don’t we? As to Sig’s remark, I discount it because it’s just the usual rhetoric exhibited here, so if we count it, we have to count all the threats by some that others here should be killed, have been aborted, and on and on. The direct statements about this tragedy count, for me; the usual bullshit, not. I, too, am sad to see Sig sink as low as those whose posts I despise...Mike as well and I hope Rue doesn’t continue to join them. But it’s their right, just as it is the right of the most disgusting of us here to post the horrific things THEY do. I can only mourn that those three indulge in it, because I know THEY’RE capable of better.
Quote:

The fact that you wrote that gives me great hope for a future with less hostility. You spoke against two people from completely opposite sides for their same disgusting rationalizations and acceptance of murder.
Actually, I don’t think they’re from completely different sides. Kane’s ONLY reason for being here, he freely admits, is to trigger others. Gino hates America and all things American...I don’t see those as polar opposites, myself, but rather as lack of humanity.

Rue,
Quote:

Whatever I or anyone else posts seems to make no difference either way. After all if all attempts at rational argument AND all the snark over all the years have not made a dent, I can't see anything making a difference at this point.
Yup, in a nutshell. That’s why I pretty much ignore them and try to speak to the rational voices here. I’m not here as much anymore either, for the same reasons, but I still come to see if there’s anything interesting put up which is worth scrolling past PN’s insanely long diatribes and visuals, AND the same idiots saying the same things, to get to. My problem right now is I get caught up in replies; I need to conquer THAT, as well as coming here every day. Working on it.

Well, I’ll take one minute to respond to Wulf, not that it matters. Rue said it, the only people who shouldn’t be allowed guns are “the mentally insane, actual tried and convicted criminals, and the underage”. That’s not controlling people, that’s common sense. Nobody whatsoever said all the stupid things you put in capitals, but I realize that has nothing to do with anything you claim. Not surprising, just disgusting, as usual. Me, I’d like a simple question answered; why do people need semi-automatic weapons with 25-bullet magazines? I’m sure you have your own answer, but I don’t want to hear it, I know what it would be. I ask of the rational among us; what is the purpose of same?

And no, Rue, he doesn’t know what you posted. Bear in mind that Wulf “reads” what he expects to see, not what people actually write, then he takes it to the most extreme he can and throws it back at them, that’s all.

I'm sorry you're going away again; we need every rational voice we can have, to keep the sane among us coming at all; to leave it to the irrational hatemongers among us would be a sad, sad thing.

ETA: PK, I agree. I accept we have guns everywhere, it is the way it is. And I have no desire to ban them; it's just not possible and would be a stupid thing to attempt. But some of the more extreme things do bother me, and I wish there was some form of moderation possible. The NRA will never allow ANY moderation, we know that, and I abhor their mentality, which is, as you said, definitely dehumanizing and devoid of empathy for the victims of gun violence. If they were more reasonable, I think many things could be done by way of compromise and common sense. Alas, no more possible than banning guns; they've got too much profit tied up in it.


Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off




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Monday, January 10, 2011 2:06 PM

PEACEKEEPER

Keeping order in every verse


When it comes to guns, it has to be Chris Rock that has said THE most sensible thing. Let everybody have a gun, but make the bullets $5000 dollars each. Now THAT is a fucking BRILLIANT idea.

Peacekeeper---keeping order in every verse!!!

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Monday, January 10, 2011 2:11 PM

KANEMAN


Quote:

Originally posted by peacekeeper:
When it comes to guns, it has to Chris Rock that has said THE most sensible thing. Let everybody have a gun, but make the bullets $5000 dollars each. Now THAT is a fucking BRILLIANT idea.

Peacekeeper---keeping order in every verse!!!




No that is not.

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Monday, January 10, 2011 2:52 PM

MINCINGBEAST


After Nidal Hassan shot up Ft. Hood the discourse was:

Mouthbreathing Conservative: We must blame the political and religious rhetoric of all Muslims everywhere for the shooting!

Femmy Liberal: How unfair to make blanket assertions about people!


In the wake of the Gifford shooting, the discourse is:

Femmy Liberal: We should blame the political and religious rhetoric of the Tea Party, and all right wingers everyhwere, for the shooting!

Mouthbreathing Conservative: How unfair to make blanket assertions about people!


Those who cry foul now, and didn't cry foul before, are opportunistic and dishonest. I admire them.

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Monday, January 10, 2011 2:53 PM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


I LOVE it!




Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off




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Monday, January 10, 2011 3:29 PM

1KIKI

Today, scientists sound the alarm on other environmental dangers. Vested interests still hire their own scientists to confuse the issue. But in the end, nature will not be fooled. Neil deGrasse Tyson


Those who cry foul now, and didn't cry foul before, are opportunistic and dishonest. I admire them.

Mercy is the mark of a great man. Guess I'm just a good man. Well, I'm alright.

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Monday, January 10, 2011 3:41 PM

KANEMAN


Quote:

Originally posted by mincingbeast:
After Nidal Hassan shot up Ft. Hood the discourse was:

Mouthbreathing Conservative: We must blame the political and religious rhetoric of all Muslims everywhere for the shooting!

Femmy Liberal: How unfair to make blanket assertions about people!


In the wake of the Gifford shooting, the discourse is:

Femmy Liberal: We should blame the political and religious rhetoric of the Tea Party, and all right wingers everyhwere, for the shooting!

Mouthbreathing Conservative: How unfair to make blanket assertions about people!


Those who cry foul now, and didn't cry foul before, are opportunistic and dishonest. I admire them.



Only problem Mince, and we can blame low grade octane for your error in rational, In the case of Nidal he WAS taught by a hate breeding muslim extremist. In the case Gifford case there is ZERO proof he was a tea partier...Infact most things point.. that he was a leftist. Although, I also admire the intellectual cowards among us.

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Monday, January 10, 2011 3:41 PM

KANEMAN


Quote:

Originally posted by Niki2:
I LOVE it!




Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off







You should... he is talking about you.

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Monday, January 10, 2011 5:18 PM

FREMDFIRMA


Couple things...

Firstoff, one quibble with those "homicide" stats is that for the purpose of making those charts, those shot dead in the commission of a violent crime are considered homicides, so you have to take into account that SOME of that statistic is bunk, but even figuring out how much is damn near impossible when both "sides" lie their ass off unrepentingly to support their own cause.

Still, I consider the notion that an armed assailant with a couple holes in him due to the actions of his intended victim, gets classed as a "victim of gun violence" pretty goddamned offensive, you know ?

As to why I think the right to carry is important, Marko has written probably the best capsule explaination of that concept that there ever was.

Why the gun is civilization.
http://munchkinwrangler.wordpress.com/2007/03/23/why-the-gun-is-civili
zation
/
Quote:

Human beings only have two ways to deal with one another: reason and force. If you want me to do something for you, you have a choice of either convincing me via argument, or force me to do your bidding under threat of force. Every human interaction falls into one of those two categories, without exception. Reason or force, that’s it.

In a truly moral and civilized society, people exclusively interact through persuasion. Force has no place as a valid method of social interaction, and the only thing that removes force from the menu is the personal firearm, as paradoxical as it may sound to some.

When I carry a gun, you cannot deal with me by force. You have to use reason and try to persuade me, because I have a way to negate your threat or employment of force. The gun is the only personal weapon that puts a 100-pound woman on equal footing with a 220-pound mugger, a 75-year old retiree on equal footing with a 19-year old gangbanger, and a single gay guy on equal footing with a carload of drunk guys with baseball bats. The gun removes the disparity in physical strength, size, or numbers between a potential attacker and a defender.

There are plenty of people who consider the gun as the source of bad force equations. These are the people who think that we’d be more civilized if all guns were removed from society, because a firearm makes it easier for a mugger to do his job. That, of course, is only true if the mugger’s potential victims are mostly disarmed either by choice or by legislative fiat–it has no validity when most of a mugger’s potential marks are armed. People who argue for the banning of arms ask for automatic rule by the young, the strong, and the many, and that’s the exact opposite of a civilized society. A mugger, even an armed one, can only make a successful living in a society where the state has granted him a force monopoly.

Then there’s the argument that the gun makes confrontations lethal that otherwise would only result in injury. This argument is fallacious in several ways. Without guns involved, confrontations are won by the physically superior party inflicting overwhelming injury on the loser. People who think that fists, bats, sticks, or stones don’t constitute lethal force watch too much TV, where people take beatings and come out of it with a bloody lip at worst. The fact that the gun makes lethal force easier works solely in favor of the weaker defender, not the stronger attacker. If both are armed, the field is level. The gun is the only weapon that’s as lethal in the hands of an octogenarian as it is in the hands of a weightlifter. It simply wouldn’t work as well as a force equalizer if it wasn’t both lethal and easily employable.

When I carry a gun, I don’t do so because I am looking for a fight, but because I’m looking to be left alone. The gun at my side means that I cannot be forced, only persuaded. I don’t carry it because I’m afraid, but because it enables me to be unafraid. It doesn’t limit the actions of those who would interact with me through reason, only the actions of those who would do so by force. It removes force from the equation…and that’s why carrying a gun is a civilized act.


Ponder for a moment what *MY* options are on a bad day when my leg is being wonky and I am in a wheelchair - my ability to flee is nonexistant, and while I *could* perhaps fight hand to hand with three effective limbs and a skill advantage, IF the perp is dumb enough to get close enough for me to get my hands on him, should I bet my life on that ?
Uhh, no thanks.

Besides, removing guns from the equation is a pipe dream, all trying does is hand a massive advantage to the criminal element, and even if you could - that element generally being younger, stronger and more vicious, all you would have done in the end is remove the ability of the decent to level the field a bit.

Hell, I don't even SEE this incident as a gun issue, as I have asserted from the very beginning it is more properly a mental health issue - this guy had problems, and was receiving inadequate or ineffective assistance for them, our society fails many people in that way, and we pay for it in ways not often immediately apparent.

When someone goes over the rainbow like that, they *WILL* find a way to cause carnage, and as I pointed out with school violence - if it gets to the point where the potentive perp is LOOKING for a weapon, it's already gone much, much further than we should have allowed it to.

Folk *knew* this guy was having issues, and instead of trying to help, turned their backs and further marginalized him, not that this excuses him whatever, his actions are his own - but we have a society that makes people crazy and then punishes them for being so, and for THAT, we are, all of us, responsible.

-Frem

I do not serve the Blind God.

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Monday, January 10, 2011 5:30 PM

HARDWARE


Quote:

Originally posted by Fremdfirma:

...Folk *knew* this guy was having issues, and instead of trying to help, turned their backs and further marginalized him, not that this excuses him whatever, his actions are his own - but we have a society that makes people crazy and then punishes them for being so, and for THAT, we are, all of us, responsible...



^ This.

The more I get to know people the more I like my dogs.

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Monday, January 10, 2011 5:36 PM

PIRATENEWS

John Lee, conspiracy therapist at Hollywood award-winner History Channel-mocked SNL-spoofed PirateNew.org wooHOO!!!!!!




Funny how his Democrat parents had no complaint about his Church of Satan revival tent in their back yard.
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/2011/01/10/2011-01-10_chillin
g_shrine_in_madmans_yard.html


Liberal Smear Machine Backfires After Alleged Gunman Found To Be Satanic Atheistic Abortion-Loving Open-Border Illegal Alien Loving Pot-Smoking Long-Haired Liberal Commie Left-Wing Democrat Homosexual Transvestite
http://www.infowars.com/liberal-smear-machine-backfires-after-gunman-f
ound-to-be-occultist-pot-smoking-left-winger
/

74-year-old retired Army colonel who took down Arizona assassin was grazed in the head by a bullet, choked Loughner by the neck
www.nydailynews.com/news/national/2011/01/10/2011-01-10_74yearold_reti
red_army_colonel_who_took_down_arizona_assassin_was_a_born_hero.html



Democratic Commie Liberal faggot Jared Lee Loughner's mugshot today
http://tucsoncitizen.com/three-sonorans/2011/01/10/image-jared-lee-lou
gher-mugshot-and-smirks-in-court-today
/

Creepy bastard looks just like the creepy mass-murdering husband of Rep Giffords:



Fed judge appoints CIA MKULTRA defense lawyer Judy Clarke from California, defense lawyer for CIA MKULTRA Al Qaeda patsy Zacarias Moussaoui, defense lawyer for CIA MKULTRA Unabomber Ted Kaczynski, to represent CIA MKULTRA mind control slave Jared Lee Loughner
http://forum.prisonplanet.com/index.php?topic=197690.0

Quote:

The Unabomber a Harvard MKULTRA Victim

In his first week, at the tender age of 16, the real Manchurian Candidate met with his soon to be controller, Dr Henry A Murray.

Ted would become one of many children indoctrinated, set-up and tormented by the "secret" CIA Mind Control program. Dr. Murray helped found the Boston Psychoanalytic Society, led the Harvard Psychological Clinic, selected agents for the Office of Strategic Services during World War II.

Dr. Murray would become world famous in 1967 as the CIA psychologist who slipped a colleague LSD. The colleague then took the magical mystery tour out the window of a New York Hotel, landing in front of horrified guests head-first on the sidewalk 14 floors below. It was the first, and worst, public exposure of the 7 billion dollar budgeted MKUltra Mind Control program in which Dr Murray worked.

But in 1959 Murray sat in an office at Harvard University in the early fall interviewing a promising prospect. From the Midwest, socially awkward, sexually repressed, incredibly brilliant...a mathematics prodigy. Murray must have liked the first test results on the very young prospect because he code named the 16 year old "Lawful". In Mind Control parlance the rough equivalent of "Perfect". Murray would meet with Ted regularly for the next three years until the records purge of MKultra in 1962 when the agency attempted to destroy all references and records related to the program.

David Kaczynski reveals the MK-ULTRA-CIA mind control program that brother Theodore Kaczynski (dubbed the Unabomber by the FBI) was unwittingly a part of for three years at Harvard, and then at the University of Michigan and probably U.C. Stanford. In recalling some of the details of his brother’s involvement in the covert behavior modification program, David Kaczynski says of his older brother, “In a sense, he wasn’t paranoid; he was in a sense conspired against.”

Here was a chance to ask David Kaczynski about his brilliant, eccentric, loving older brother, and what the U.S. government may have done to him and with him.

You know, Mom had remembered it because since Ted was only 17* when he went into this research project, parental consent was needed, and Mom remembered getting a form, you know, Harvard College, asking for her permission for Ted to be in this study and Mom said, ‘Gee, I thought Ted’s…. You know, he’s socially awkward, he doesn’t fit in very well. Maybe being exposed to psychologists could be very helpful to him. Well, little did she know that this study wasn’t conducted with his benefit in mind.

How knowledgeable was Ted’s defense team about MKULTRA?

David Kaczynski: The defense apparently put a lot of research into this. It was going to be at least one of their arguments for mitigation that Ted had been seriously abused in this…. this research program that might have even been funded by the federal government. It was hard to get research, hard to make the connection fully. They [Ted Kaczynski’s legal team] found that numbers of the records had actually been destroyed – not for confidentiality reasons, or something. It was destroyed because there was a congressional investigation of the MKULTRA program and the then director really, uh, in contempt of Congress, destroyed many of the records of that program. They did eventually get to look at some of Murray’s private research papers. That was where some of these transcripts were found. They also were able to track down just a couple of other participants in the study, one of which was, by the way, working at Las Alamos making big bombs. A weird irony of the whole thing.

Mind Control in the Unabomber Manifesto:

Quote:

151. The social disruption that we see today is certainly not the result of mere chance. It can only be a result fo the conditions of life that the system imposes on people. (We have argued that the most important of these conditions is disruption of the power process.) If the systems succeeds in imposing sufficient control over human behavior to assure itw own survival, a new watershed in human history will have passed. Whereas formerly the limits of human endurance have imposed limits on the development of societies (as we explained in
paragraphs 143, 144), industrial-technological society will be able to pass those limits by modifying human beings, whether by psychological methods or biological methods or both. In the future, social systems will not be adjusted to suit the needs of human beings. Instead, human being will be adjusted to suit the needs of the system.

[27] 152. Generally speaking, technological control over human behavior will probably not be introduced with a totalitarian intention or even through a conscious desire to restrict human freedom. [28] Each new step in the assertion of control over the human mind will be taken as a rational response to a problem that faces society, such as curing alcoholism, reducing the crime rate or inducing young people to study science and engineering. In many cases, there will be humanitarian justification. For example, when a psychiatrist prescribes an anti-depressant for a depressed patient, he is clearly doing that individual a favor. It would be inhumane to withhold the drug from someone who needs it. When parents send their children to Sylvan Learning Centers to have them manipulated into becoming enthusiastic about their studies, they do so from concern for their children's welfare. It may be that some of these parents wish that one didn't have to have specialized training to get a job and that their kid didn't have to be brainwashed into becoming a computer nerd. But what can they do? They can't change society, and their child may be unemployable if he doesn't have certain skills. So they send him to Sylvan.

153. Thus control over human behavior will be introduced not by a calculated decision of the authorities but through a process of social evolution (RAPID evolution, however). The process will be impossible to resist, because each advance, considered by itself, will appear to be beneficial, or at least the evil involved in making the advance will appear to be beneficial, or at least the evil involved in making the advance will seem to be less than that which would result from not making it (see paragraph 127). Propaganda for example is used for many good purposes, such as discouraging child abuse or race hatred. [14] Sex education is obviously useful, yet the effect of sex education (to the extent that it is successful) is to take the shaping of sexual attitudes away from the family and put it into the hands of the state as represented by the public school system.

154. Suppose a biological trait is discovered that increases the likelihood that a child will grow up to be a criminal and suppose some sort of gene therapy can remove this trait. [29] Of course most parents whose children possess the trait will have them undergo the therapy. It would be inhumane to do otherwise, since the child would probably have a miserable life if he grew up to be a criminal. But many or most primitive societies have a low crime rate in comparison with that of our society, even though they have neither high-tech methods of child-rearing nor harsh systems of punishment. Since there is no reason to suppose that more modern men than primitive men have innate predatory tendencies, the high crime rate of our society must be due to the pressures that modern conditions put on people, to which many cannot or will not adjust. Thus a treatment designed to remove potential criminal tendencies is at least in part a way of re-engineering people so that they suit the requirements of the system.

155. Our society tends to regard as a "sickness" any mode of thought or behavior that is inconvenient for the system, and this is plausible because when an individual doesn't fit into the system it causes pain to the individual as well as problems for the system. Thus the manipulation of an individual to adjust him to the system is seen as a "cure" for a "sickness" and therefore as good.

156. In paragraph 127 we pointed out that if the use of a new item of technology is INITIALLY optional, it does not necessarily REMAIN optional, because the new technology tends to change society in such a way that it becomes difficult or impossible for an individual to function without using that technology. This applies also to the technology of human behavior. In a world in which most children are put through a program to make them enthusiastic about studying, a parent will almost be forced to put his kid through such a program, because if he does not, then the kid will grow up to be, comparatively speaking, an ignoramus and therefore unemployable. Or suppose a biological treatment is discovered that, without undesirable side-effects, will greatly reduce the psychological stress from which so many people suffer in our society. If large numbers of people choose to undergo the treatment, then the general level of stress in society will be reduced, so that it will be possible for the system to increase the stress-producing pressures. In fact, something like this seems to have happened already with one of our society's most important psychological tools for enabling people to reduce (or at least temporarily escape from) stress, namely, mass entertainment (see paragraph 147). Our use of mass entertainment is "optional": No law requires us to watch television, listen to the radio, read magazines. Yet mass entertainment is a means of escape and stress-reduction on which most of us have become dependent. Everyone complains about the trashiness of television, but almost everyone watches it. A few have kicked the TV habit, but it would be a rare person who could get along today without using ANY form of mass entertainment. (Yet until quite recently in human history most people got along very nicely with no other entertainment than that which each local community created for itself.) Without the entertainment industry the system probably would not have been able to get away with putting as much stress-producing pressure on us as it does.

157. Assuming that industrial society survives, it is likely that technology will eventually acquire something approaching complete control over human behavior. It has been established beyond any rational doubt that human thought and behavior have a largely biological basis. As experimenters have demonstrated, feelings such as hunger, pleasure, anger and fear can be turned on and off by electrical stimulation of appropriate parts of the brain. Memories can be destroyed by damaging parts of the brain or they can be brought to the surface by electrical stimulation. Hallucinations can be induced or moods changed by drugs. There may or may not be an immaterial human soul, but if there is one it clearly is less powerful that the biological mechanisms of human behavior. For if that were not the case then researchers would not be able so easily to manipulate human feelings and behavior with drugs and electrical currents.

158. It presumably would be impractical for all people to have electrodes inserted in their heads so that they could be controlled by the authorities. But the fact that human thoughts and feelings are so open to biological intervention shows that the problem of controlling human behavior is mainly a technical problem; a problem of neurons, hormones and complex molecules; the kind of problem that is accessible to scientific attack. Given the outstanding record of our society in solving technical problems, it is overwhelmingly probable that great advances will be made in the control of human behavior.



http://robertscourt.blogspot.com/2008/06/unabomber-harvard-mkultra-vic
tim.html







Shoot Out in Tuscon: Gun Owner Returns Fire at Giffords Massacre, Makes Citizen's Arrest of Shooter, as Cops Refuse to Allow Ambulances Help Victims
Mascara-wearing Fox News host Shepard Smith aghast that a MAN would fire back at a gunman in self-defense
http://www.infowars.com/return-fire-at-giffords-massacre/

Quote:

"Not a single issue voter, but if I was, gay rights would be it. I just want Democrats to be tough. And I wish Obama were tougher. That’s all. I’m a proud gay. I had favorite books: The Communist Manifesto."
-Jared Lee Loughner (or his sockpuppet)
www.businessinsider.com/jared-lee-loughner-2011-1

“Good luck to you, Mr. Loughner."
-U.S. Magistrate Lawrence Anderson

"If they bring a knife to the fight, we bring a gun."
-Dictator Hussein Obama Soetoro
http://www.politico.com/blogs/bensmith/0608/Obama_brings_a_gun_to_a_kn
ife_fight.html




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Monday, January 10, 2011 5:37 PM

HARDWARE


Quote:

Originally posted by rue:



And BTW - the shooter is the exact reason for gun control, along with criminals and the underage. He's IS the epitome of the phrase 'nut with a gun.' But of course you are running screaming from something so reasonable as crazy people should not have guns, b/c this guy could just as well be - you.



Except, according the published reports, nowhere does it say he was receiving professional mental health treatment. Several people and institutions noted his mental instability and did nothing that would have gotten him effective treatment. Nothing in the published reports I have read would have disqualified him from purchasing a pistol, rifle or shotgun. So, how do the laws enacted after the Virgnia Tech shooting make us safer?

Regarding convicted criminals; until 1968 they were allowed to purchase and own firearms. Why are they allowed on the street if they cannot be trusted with firearms? Now that self defense has been affirmed as a civil right in Heller vs. DC and McDonald vs. Chicago, does that means a convicted felon has voided his civil right. Sorry, doesn't follow.

And until 1968 any school child in America could order a rifle, shotgun or pistol through the mail. Surprisingly, the halls of schools across America were not running red with blood. What changed between then and now?

I'm not saying you're absolutely wrong, I just want you to back your assertions up with more than just a feeling.

The more I get to know people the more I like my dogs.

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Monday, January 10, 2011 5:51 PM

CANTTAKESKY


Frem,

This quotation reminds me of you. :)
Quote:

"God made all men, but Sam Colt made them equal." -- attributed to Colt advertising slogan.

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,28831-2,00.html


This particular variation was from Quigley Down Under.

On another note, my God, can we start a new thread? This one has got over 235 responses!

Continue here please:

http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.asp?b=18&t=47118



Can't Take (my gorram) Sky
------
Everything I say is just my opinion, not fact.

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Monday, January 10, 2011 6:10 PM

1KIKI

Today, scientists sound the alarm on other environmental dangers. Vested interests still hire their own scientists to confuse the issue. But in the end, nature will not be fooled. Neil deGrasse Tyson


"... nowhere does it say he was receiving professional mental health treatment." That's true - IN GENERAL we have many, many clinically insane people who never see a professional. It in part is due to Ronald Reagan's push to 'de-institutionalize' the insane and close state-run hospitals where many resided, a step he promised would reintegrate them into the community, and where close-to-home treatment would be provided. Except that the promised close-to-home treatment never happened. Oops. It is also due to a 1977 Supreme Court ruling which ruled for a maximum 3-day involuntary hold for evaluation only. But see below ...

"Nothing in the published reports I have read would have disqualified him from purchasing a pistol, rifle or shotgun." Except, oddly Arizona which does allow involuntary institutionalization for drug problems. That would definitely have landed him in the system, on the books, and denied guns.

"Regarding convicted criminals; until 1968 they were allowed to purchase and own firearms. Why are they allowed on the street if they cannot be trusted with firearms?" And why are they denied other 'rights' as well? B/c apparently, this TYPE of post-release restriction is quite common, maybe even in your state:

"There are both civil and criminal consequences to felony convictions. On the criminal side, you can be sentenced to jail or probation and/or fined. On the civil side, you may lose the right to vote, become ineligible to sit on a jury, hold elected office and/or possess a firearm. Civil consequences may last far longer than the criminal punishment."

And as of now - that's the way things are and is the sum of the argument - unless you are going to argue people break the law en masse ...


"And until 1968 any school child in America could order a rifle, shotgun or pistol through the mail." Same argument - today, it's against the law.



But you have a major problem with your logic if you are trying to argue unfettered, unrestricted access to all arms as a right - I could argue that an infant should be allowed to have a button to launch a nuclear bomb as a teething toy. Taken to extreme yours is an untenable position.

If you wish to discuss limits and where they should be reasonably set, then I'm in. Otherwise, I'll just consider you extremely stupid and not worth my time.

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Monday, January 10, 2011 6:13 PM

KPO

"Love is natural and real. But not for you my love. Not tonight my love..."


Quote:

By the way, didn't you have someone ride around with a shotgun shooting up your paradise recently?

Hows that "knife crime" thing working out?



Homicide rates for selected countries:



It's not personal. It's just war.

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Tuesday, January 11, 2011 6:05 AM

BYTEMITE


Anything taken to extremes is an untenable position. Gun rights are not necessarily untenable, but babies with nuclear weapons as a logical progression from gun rights kinda is.

But, to be fair to you, there are clearly flaws in a world where people kill other people like this. Violence is not a good solution in general, rather it's a self-defeating one. At least six lives screwed up, including the shooter, and more depending on how well ten or so other injured people recover.

As a side note, I think the way the system treats felons leaves them trapped in a cycle of crime and violence, but that's another topic.

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Tuesday, January 11, 2011 6:23 AM

WULFENSTAR

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg


"Yes, Wulf, we know you want no control whatsoever on guns, ammo, bombs, etc. We know you live in an “all-or-nothing”, “black-and-white” world, so there’s no use trying to communicate with you. To you, any form of moderation is “control”, but you rail against any whiff of controlling yourself or others who believe as you do. We have no desire to “control” others, merely to utilize common sense. People with police records and those with well-known mental health problems should be allowed to have guns, in your world, probably because you think you’d take them out with YOUR guns. Doesn’t actually work that way, in real life."

Couple of things. Your way doesn't work either.

For example. Let say there is a guy who was caught dealing drugs (nothing big, just weed). He goes in, after having been convicted of 8 years. 2 years in, he realizes he won't make it thru the next 6 without catching more time. So he flips on those who provided for him to sell. He gets out for time served.

Now hes back on the street, with a conviction, no job experience, and 20 buck in his pocket.

But hes convinced to go the right way. He shacks up with his baby mama, and works with his parole officer to get a job. Its not much, and doesnt allow him to get anywhere, but its work.

he has to stay in his old neighborhood where originally was caught. The heavy heads know he flipped and are after him.

He COULD get a gun off the street, but wants to do it the "right and legal" way, do he goes to find a gun shop.

They tell him no because he was a convicted felon etc.

The next day, hes walking home and bang. Dead.


Its almost as easy to get a gun off the street in NY/LA, as it is in Georgia.

Gun Control simply does NOT work.

"Hope is a good thing, maybe the best of things, and no good thing ever dies"

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Tuesday, January 11, 2011 7:14 AM

KANEMAN


Gun control will never work in America. It was just over two life times ago we were building this country by the barrel of a gun. It is in our blood. You can't compare us to countries that have been other's subjects for a thousand years. Guns, Germs, and Steel.... That is what has made America the greatest civilization man has ever known. And with "Germs" I mean the syphylis we get in Mexico.

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Tuesday, January 11, 2011 8:04 AM

KPO

"Love is natural and real. But not for you my love. Not tonight my love..."


Quote:

Originally posted by Wulfenstar:
"Yes, Wulf, we know you want no control whatsoever on guns, ammo, bombs, etc. We know you live in an “all-or-nothing”, “black-and-white” world, so there’s no use trying to communicate with you. To you, any form of moderation is “control”, but you rail against any whiff of controlling yourself or others who believe as you do. We have no desire to “control” others, merely to utilize common sense. People with police records and those with well-known mental health problems should be allowed to have guns, in your world, probably because you think you’d take them out with YOUR guns. Doesn’t actually work that way, in real life."

Couple of things. Your way doesn't work either.

For example. Let say there is a guy who was caught dealing drugs (nothing big, just weed). He goes in, after having been convicted of 8 years. 2 years in, he realizes he won't make it thru the next 6 without catching more time. So he flips on those who provided for him to sell. He gets out for time served.

Now hes back on the street, with a conviction, no job experience, and 20 buck in his pocket.

But hes convinced to go the right way. He shacks up with his baby mama, and works with his parole officer to get a job. Its not much, and doesnt allow him to get anywhere, but its work.

he has to stay in his old neighborhood where originally was caught. The heavy heads know he flipped and are after him.

He COULD get a gun off the street, but wants to do it the "right and legal" way, do he goes to find a gun shop.

They tell him no because he was a convicted felon etc.

The next day, hes walking home and bang. Dead.


Its almost as easy to get a gun off the street in NY/LA, as it is in Georgia.

Gun Control simply does NOT work.

"Hope is a good thing, maybe the best of things, and no good thing ever dies"



If you make enemies of big drug dealers you're in trouble in any society... whether guns are freely available, legally or not. But I think the poor guy would have a better chance here in Britain, where drug dealers have less access to guns. Also we don't sentence people dealing weed for 8 years.

It's not personal. It's just war.

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Tuesday, January 11, 2011 8:19 AM

WULFENSTAR

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg


Really. If people love it in Britain (and places like it) then move and/or stay there.

But as this is OUR home, we are more than capable of figuring things out for ourselves.

"Hope is a good thing, maybe the best of things, and no good thing ever dies"

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Tuesday, January 11, 2011 5:26 PM

KPO

"Love is natural and real. But not for you my love. Not tonight my love..."


Of course. Americans can go their own way on this issue as far as I'm concerned. Just don't imagine/pretend there's no other way - there is.

It's not personal. It's just war.

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Tuesday, January 11, 2011 5:31 PM

PIRATENEWS

John Lee, conspiracy therapist at Hollywood award-winner History Channel-mocked SNL-spoofed PirateNew.org wooHOO!!!!!!




Jared Lee Loughner is a kosher homosexual, just like the Columbine shooters...except this time targeting jews not Christians.

That explains why only jews are allowed to report on this story on Jew TeeVee.

Quote:

Alleged Arizona shooter Jared Lee Loughner has Jewish mother, acquaintance says

An acquaintance of Jared Lee Loughner, the accused gunman in the shooting of U.S. Rep. Gabrielle Giffords, says his mother is Jewish.

Bryce Tierney, a friend of Loughner from high school, told Mother Jones magazine that the alleged gunman posted “Mein Kampf” as a “favorite book” on a social media site in part to provoke his mother, who Tierney says is Jewish.

Amy Loughner’s maiden name is Totman, according to Arizona public records, and she married Randy Loughner in 1986. Totman is a common old English name and JTA could not uncover any record of Jewish affiliation for the family. Jewish Tucsonians said they were unaware of the family.

http://www.jewishjournal.com/arizona_shooting/article/alleged_arizona_
shooter_jared_lee_loughner_has_
jewish_mother_acquaintance_s/



Quote:

Is Loughner’s mother Jewish?

JTA Jewish News Service
January 10, 2011

There's a lot of buzz about the parents of Jared Lee Loughner, the alleged shooter in the attack Saturday that critically wounded Rep. Gabrielle Giffords (D-Ariz.) and killed six people in an attack in Tucson.

More precisely, there's a lot of buzz about who these parents are -- we've heard about Loughner's allegedly untoward behavior at a community college, what high school acquaintances have said -- but the New York Times, for instance, shunts until the very end of its profile today what it knows about Randy and Amy Loughner: Randy Loughner was an unpleasant neighbor.

There's not much more, beyond their silence.

Now we get this from Mother Jones. Nick Baumann interviews Bryce Tierney, a friend of Jared's who recalls the alleged shooter's first encounter with Giffords, in 2007 -- and then explains why Jared might have listed Mein Kampf as a "favorite book":

Tierney believes that Loughner was very interested in pushing people's buttons—and that may have been why he listed Hitler's Mein Kampf as one of his favorite books on his YouTube page. (Loughner's mom is Jewish, according to Tierney.)

UPDATE: Amy Joanne Totman and Randy Loughner were married on April 24, 1986 in Pima County -- or perhaps that's the day they got their license, Arizona state records show. No judge is listed -- perhaps suggesting they were married by clergy? I'm not so well versed in these matters.

In any case, Totman is an old English name, and seems fairly common. I'm not seeing any connection, except for what Tierney thinks he remembers -- and even if he remembers correctly, his informant was likely Jared, who may be less than reliable.

http://blogs.jta.org/politics/article/2011/01/10/2742483/is-loughners-
mother-jewish


http://www.nytimes.com/2011/01/10/us/10shooter.html?pagewanted=3&_r=1&
hp


http://motherjones.com/politics/2011/01/jared-lee-loughner-friend-voic
email-phone-message?page=1



Quote:

MASS MURDERERS PREFER WALMART, THE WORLD'S LARGEST GUN DEALER

Here is a scenario you might find entertaining. He didn't have a job, and lived with his parents, but he bought a $500 gun on November 30, 2010. On the day he decides to go on a shooting rampage, he purchases bullets from Walmart. Why didn't he already have bullets?

Consider the possibility that the Jews were using him as another Lee Oswald, but he figured it out, and he decided to get some real bullets, and then he turned on those Jews, thereby explaining his mugshot smirk.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/world/arizona-shooting/tucson-shoo
ter-was-able-to-buy-gun-with-ease/article1864871
/

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748703779704576074080255720
732.html?mod=googlenews_wsj




Democratic Commie Liberal faggot jew Jared Lee Loughner's mugshot today
http://tucsoncitizen.com/three-sonorans/2011/01/10/image-jared-lee-lou
gher-mugshot-and-smirks-in-court-today
/

Creepy bastard looks just like the creepy mass-murdering husband of Rep Giffords:



This ex cop says Loughner probably was under mind control in the loonybin, thanks to a standard judicial diversion available in all jurisdictions, with standard expungement of the court records:

Quote:

WWW.THEPOWERHOUR.COM RADIO MONDAY – JANUARY 10 – DOUBLE FEATURE:

Hour 1 http://archives2011.gcnlive.com/Archives2011/jan11/PowerHour/0110111.m
p3


Federal judge appoints lawyer for shooter Jared Laughner, same lawyer for SSgt Tim "I Have A Microchip In My Ass" McVeigh the MKULTRA mind control patsy in the Fed Govt's bombing of the OKC Fed building killing little children, same lawyer for Unabomber Ted Kaczynski the admitted MKULTRA mind control lab rat, lawyer for CIA MKULTRA Al Qaeda patsy Zacarias Moussaoui.

Ex cop George Freund joins TPH during the 1st hour to give his thoughts on the latest shootings in Arizona. Listen to George every Thursday at 8:00pm live on www.ThatChannel.com : The truly beautiful people get their news from alternative sources. Put something wild into your evening news with Conspiracy Cafe.

Listen to host George Freund's Podcast: http://thatradio.podhoster.com/index.php?sid=1746

Hour 2 http://archives2011.gcnlive.com/Archives2011/jan11/PowerHour/0110112.m
p3


ATTORNEY KURT HASKELL provides an update since originally reporting on his eye-witness account of the now infamous ‘Underwear Bomber’ incident, where governmental agencies ordered the airline to allow the bomber on the airliner, without a passport and bypassing the naked body scanner. The US State Dept later admitted it was ordered by an unnamed US Govt agency to put the bomber on the plane.

“Today is the second worst day of my life after 12-25-09. Today is the day that I realized that my own country is lying to me and all of my fellow Americans.”

Let me explain: [The truth being more than one person was involved and the authorities refusing to answer the key question as to why particular individuals are not screened by Customs agents - - - and in this case, why the actual Underwear Bomber went suspiciously unscreened!]
Website: http://www.HaskellLawFirm.com
Latest Story--By Kurt Haskell; January 1, 2011: The Man In Orange and the Merry Go Round of Ron Smith/U.S. Customs
Radio: http://www.blogtalkradio.com





Funny how his Democrat parents had no complaint about his Church of Satan revival tent in their back yard.
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/2011/01/10/2011-01-10_chillin
g_shrine_in_madmans_yard.html


Liberal Smear Machine Backfires After Alleged Gunman Found To Be Satanic Atheistic Abortion-Loving Open-Border Illegal Alien Loving Pot-Smoking Long-Haired Liberal Commie Left-Wing Democrat Homosexual Transvestite Jew
http://www.infowars.com/liberal-smear-machine-backfires-after-gunman-f
ound-to-be-occultist-pot-smoking-left-winger
/

74-year-old retired Army colonel who took down Arizona assassin was grazed in the head by a bullet, choked Loughner by the neck
www.nydailynews.com/news/national/2011/01/10/2011-01-10_74yearold_reti
red_army_colonel_who_took_down_arizona_assassin_was_a_born_hero.html


Fed judge appoints CIA MKULTRA defense lawyer Judy Clarke from California, defense lawyer for CIA MKULTRA Al Qaeda patsy Zacarias Moussaoui, defense lawyer for SSgt Tim "I Have A Microchip In My Ass" McVeigh, defense lawyer for CIA MKULTRA Unabomber Ted Kaczynski, to represent CIA MKULTRA mind control slave Jared Lee Loughner
http://forum.prisonplanet.com/index.php?topic=197690.0

Shoot Out in Tuscon: Gun Owner Returns Fire at Giffords Massacre, Makes Citizen's Arrest of Shooter, as Cops Refuse to Allow Ambulances Help Victims
Mascara-wearing Fox News host Shepard Smith aghast that a MAN would fire back at a gunman in self-defense
http://www.infowars.com/return-fire-at-giffords-massacre/

"The federal government does nothing to secure our border."
-Rep. Gabrielle Giffords (D-AZ -- "former" Republican)

"Not a single issue voter, but if I was, gay rights would be it. I just want Democrats to be tough. And I wish Obama were tougher. That’s all. I’m a proud gay. I had favorite books: The Communist Manifesto."
-Jared Lee Loughner (or his sockpuppet)
www.businessinsider.com/jared-lee-loughner-2011-1

“Good luck to you, Mr. Loughner."
-U.S. Magistrate Lawrence Anderson

"If they bring a knife to the fight, we bring a gun."
-Dictator Hussein Obama Soetoro
http://www.politico.com/blogs/bensmith/0608/Obama_brings_a_gun_to_a_kn
ife_fight.html



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Wednesday, January 12, 2011 7:13 AM

PIRATENEWS

John Lee, conspiracy therapist at Hollywood award-winner History Channel-mocked SNL-spoofed PirateNew.org wooHOO!!!!!!



Jared Lee Loughner sporting his Jewfro

Quote:

JEW LOUGHNER AND JEW GIFFORDS WERE MEMBERS OF THE SAME SYNOGUE

This is an amazing story. We now learn that Jared Lee Loughner's mother Amy Loughner is a member of the SAME Reform synagogue as Congresswoman Gabrielle Giffords! That means that Amy's son, who lives with his Jewish parents, Amy and Randy Loughner, is ALSO a member of the same synagogue as his shooting victim, Rep. Giffords.

Why didn't we hear about this from our super-sleuth national media?

Instead, we hear that a 'WHITE MAN' is the shooter. We hear that 'ANTI-SEMITISM' is his motive. (Mass Mind Control anyone?)

But now...now...some FACTS are leaking out!

His best friend, Bryce Tierney, who got a "farewell" voice message the night before the shootings tells us that his friend is Jewish. He tells us that Jared Loughner put Mein Kampf down as "favorite reading" to irritate his Jewish mother, Amy.

The story and the coverup of the story gets wilder. The Loughners and the Giffords were members of the same Congregation Chaverim. On the Congregation Chaverim website we learn that this Reform synagogue that was founded in 1973 has 140 families. That's a very small group. The Rabbi, Stephanie Aaron surely knows every single family member of her congregation on a first name basis!

That includes 22-year-old Jared Lee Loughner.

So, it is IMPOSSIBLE that Rabbi Stephanie Aaron did not KNOW instantly upon learning that a Jared Lee Loughner had shot Congresswoman Gabrielle Giffords that BOTH people were members of her small congregation!

But does Rabbi Aaron make ANY effort to inform the media, as she takes hundreds and hundreds of media calls from the mass media, of this fact?

Apparently not!

www.whitenewsnow.com/forums/us-news-white-folks/13368-
loughner-jewish-but-his-synagogue-congregation-chaverim-hid-fact-america.html

"Each of us brings a Gabby moment to mind; Gabrielle serving our country with chain, G-d’s grace, and eloquence. In the Hebrew Bible, shlomo Ha Molech, King Solomon, asks G-d for the gift of a lev chacham v’navon, a wise and an understanding heart. Gabrielle’s Hebrew name is Gavriella bat Gloria v’Spencer, and we also use Gavriella bat Sarah."
-Rabbi Stephanie Aaron, Chaverim Synogue, Tuscon AZ
http://www.chaverim.net



Lesbian jew Hillary Clinton Blythe Rockefeller compares Gabrielle Giffords shooting to 9/11 Inside Job by The Jews
www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/northamerica/usa/us-politics/825080
9/Hillary-Clinton-compares-Gabrielle-Giffords-shooting-to-911-attacks.html


Jew Gabrielle Giffords shooting: Jew Jared Loughner may have been influenced by Satanic Babylonian Jewish Talmud, er, the occult, says Commander Mark Kelly faked NASA space shuttle missions
www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/northamerica/usa/us-politics/825108
5/Gabrielle-Giffords-shooting-Jared-Loughner-may-have-been-influenced-by-occult.html


Quote:

Government Mind Control Experiments on U.S. Soldiers: Shocking Claims Come to Light in New Court Case

Mother Jones

Their stories are a staple of conspiracy culture: broken men, suffering hallucinations and near-total amnesia, who say they are victims of secret government mind-control experiments. Think Liev Schreiber in The Manchurian Candidate or Mel Gibson in Conspiracy Theory. Journalists are a favorite target for the paranoid delusions of this population. So is Gordon Erspamer—and the San Francisco lawyer's latest case isn't helping him to fend off the tinfoil-hat crowd.

He has filed suit against the CIA and the US Army on behalf of the Vietnam Veterans of America and six former American soldiers who claim they are the real thing: survivors of classified government tests conducted at the Army's Edgewood Arsenal in Maryland between 1950 and 1975. "I get a lot of calls," he says. "There are a lot of crazy people out there who think that somebody from Mars is controlling their behavior via radio waves." But when it comes to Edgewood, "I'm finding that more and more of those stories are true!"

That government scientists conducted human experiments at Edgewood is not in question. "The program involved testing of nerve agents, nerve agent antidotes, psychochemicals, and irritants," according to a 1994 General Accounting Office (now the Government Accountability Office) report (PDF). At least 7,800 US servicemen served "as laboratory rats or guinea pigs" at Edgewood, alleges Erspamer's complaint, filed in January in a federal district court in California.

The Department of Veterans Affairs has reported that military scientists tested hundreds of chemical and biological substances on them, including VX, tabun, soman, sarin, cyanide, LSD, PCP, and World War I-era blister agents like phosgene and mustard. The full scope of the tests, however, may never be known. As a CIA official explained to the GAO, referring to the agency's infamous MKULTRA mind-control experiments, "The names of those involved in the tests are not available because names were not recorded or the records were subsequently destroyed." Besides, said the official, some of the tests involving LSD and other psychochemical drugs "were administered to an undetermined number of people without their knowledge."

Erspamer's plaintiffs claim that, although they volunteered for the Edgewood program, they were never adequately informed of the potential risks and continue to suffer debilitating health effects as a result of the experiments. They hope to force the CIA and the Army to admit wrongdoing, inform them of the specific substances they were exposed to, and provide access to subsidized health care to treat their Edgewood-related ailments. Despite what they describe as decades of suffering resulting from their Edgewood experiences, the former soldiers are not seeking monetary damages; a 1950 Supreme Court decision, the Feres case, precludes military personnel from suing the federal government for personal injuries sustained in the line of duty.

The CIA's decision to use military personnel as test subjects followed the court's decision and is an issue Erspamer plans to raise at trial. "Suddenly, they stopped using civilian subjects and said, 'Oh, we can get these military guys for free,'" he says. "The government could do whatever it wanted to them without liability. We want to bring that to the attention of the public, because I don't think most people understand that." (Asked about Erspamer's suit, CIA spokeswoman Marie Harf would say only that the agency's human testing program has "been thoroughly investigated, and the CIA fully cooperated with each of the investigations.")

Erspamer's involvement in the case is deeply personal. His father was a government scientist during Operation Crossroads, a series of nuclear tests conducted at Bikini Atoll in the Pacific in the summer of 1946; he was present aboard a research vessel for the "Baker" test, during which a 21-kiloton thermonuclear bomb was detonated 90 feet below water. The blast resulted in massive radioactive contamination. Erspamer's father and the rest of the ship's crew, he says, all died in middle age from radiogenic diseases.

Erspamer makes his living in the field of energy litigation, but has twice before argued class action suits for veterans—one for soldiers who, like his father, were exposed to radiation during nuclear tests (a case he ultimately lost in a 1992 appellate decision) and more recently one on behalf of Iraq and Afghanistan veterans denied treatment for post-traumatic stress disorder. The case is on appeal in California's 9th Circuit. "Nobody out there is doing these types of cases," he says. "It's really sad because the veterans are left holding the bag, and it's not a very pretty bag."

One of those vets is Frank Rochelle. Unlike those of other test veterans, portions of his heavily redacted medical records have survived, providing a rare, if incomplete, account of his experiences. In 1968, while posted at Virginia's Fort Lee as a 20-year-old Army draftee, he saw a notice calling for volunteers for the Edgewood program. Among the promised incentives were relief from guard duty, the freedom to wear civilian clothes, three-day weekends, and, upon completion, a medal of commendation—all for participation in experiments that, according to the notice, would help the military test a new generation of equipment, clothing, and gas masks.

Upon his arrival at the testing facility in Maryland, he says he was asked to sign a series of documents, including a release form and a secrecy agreement. The tests would be risk free, he says he was told, and any drugs given would not exceed normal dosage. Over the next two months, however, he was subjected to three rounds of experiments that, Rochelle says, left him permanently damaged. His medical records indicate that he was exposed to nonlethal incapacitating agents like DHMP and glycolate, both of which act as sedatives that produce hallucinations. In the latter case, Rochelle says he was taken into a gas chamber and strapped to a chair by two men in white lab coats, who affixed a mask to his face and told him to breathe normally.

He quickly lost consciousness. According to Erspamer's complaint, "Over the next two to three days, Frank was hallucinating and high: he thought he was three feet tall, saw animals on the walls, thought he was being pursued by a 6-foot-tall white rabbit, heard people calling his name, thought that all his freckles were bugs under his skin, and used a razor to try to cut these bugs out. No one from the clinical staff intervened on his behalf…"

Medical records indicate that Rochelle went through a third round of testing, but he has no memory of it. For years he's been having nightmares about the Edgewood tests and now suffers from anxiety, memory loss, sleep apnea, tinnitus, and loss of vision, all of which he claims are direct results of the experiments. Still, he didn't inform his doctor of the tests until 2006, believing that he was still bound by the oath of secrecy he swore in 1968. (The government finally released human test subjects to speak to their physicians about the tests in June 2006, under the condition that they not "discuss anything that relates to operational information that might reveal chemical or biological warfare vulnerabilities or capabilities.")

Rochelle's story is similar to those of Erspamer's other plaintiffs, all of whom claim to be suffering debilitating health effects stemming from the experiments. Of course, substantiating these claims is a challenge, given that most of the medical records were destroyed upon completion of the program. Rochelle's records remain intact, but for "others we have less information," says Erspamer. "We spent a great deal of time on that topic, and we are confident that the plaintiffs are who they say they are, were where they said they were, and got what they said they got," in terms of exposure to experimental chemicals. "Who bears the burden on that issue when the defendants destroyed the evidence?" Erspamer asks. "They've put all that stuff through the shredder."

Compensation for injuries sustained during human testing of chemical and biological agents is not unprecedented. Last year, more than 350 servicemen who served as test subjects at Porton Down, a secret military research facility where the British government conducted its own series of mind-control experiments, were granted nearly $6 million in compensation in an out-of-court settlement with the UK's Ministry of Defence.

Likewise, in 2004, the Canadian government began offering $18,000 payments to eligible veterans of experiments at its testing facilities.
Nevertheless, says Erspamer, "No American soldiers have ever been compensated." The CIA and the Army "just hope they're all gonna die off, and they will unless somebody does something."

http://www.alternet.org/story/140206/







Judge Napolitano says judge targeted for his rulings to support the Constitution...


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Wednesday, January 12, 2011 8:17 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Just to clarify: my “I love it” crack was about PK’s post; I went to watch Chris Rock and thought it was really great. Not normally a fan of Rock, but he nailed that one.

Hardware, mood disorders like schiz and bipolar aren’t created by society; societal pressures can certainly make them manifest, but we’re not “born” schiz or bipolar. Those two disorders are manifested by people who already carry a GENE making them more susceptible to the disorder coming out. You can’t blame society for this guy; he’s a sad, pathetic bastard, nothing more or less. Yes, he wasn’t diagnosed, and that IS a failing of society; we walk away from people like that, or in the case of the school, try to protect students by suspending them, but it should be the responsibility of all of us to speak up in cases as obvious as his.

From what I heard, Arizona is one of those states where people CAN be 51/50d if it’s brought to the attention of the authorities. Not that I like that; it can have negative consequences and as a bipolar it frightens me, but in this case it should have been utilized. That nobody brought him to the attention of the authorities or tried to get him treatment (aside from the school, which did send a security person out to talk to the parents) has nothing to do with gun ownership in this case, in my opinion.

As to the gun debate, we’ve been there, done that, I’m not getting into it again. Except for a couple of things: I agree with Kiki:
Quote:

But you have a major problem with your logic if you are trying to argue unfettered, unrestricted access to all arms as a right - I could argue that an infant should be allowed to have a button to launch a nuclear bomb as a teething toy. Taken to extreme yours is an untenable position.
Moderation in all things, in essence, and the world is full of grays, nothing is black and white.

Wulf, good example for the argument that conviction shouldn’t preclude gun ownership. I don’t like it, but that’s a valid question. So is the answer that if you bring on the wrath of serious criminals or gangs, a gun isn’t gonna keep ou safe. Certainly not for long!

As to us being:
Quote:

capable of figuring things out for ourselves
we have most definitely NOT figured this out for ourselves, so that’s inaccurate, in my view; we’re just stuck with our history and there’s no going back, and we haven’t found a sensible way around the problem, certainly not yet, if we ever will.

Also, yes this thread should die. It's devolved into the usual gun argument which really has nothing to do with the most recent massacre. But it won't die, because the argument always goes on and on whenever it pops up. It's ; shy get rooked into it again?

The rest is just PN wish he'd quite changing the titles to reflect his own madness. Now THERE's someone who maybe should be looked at...


Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off




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Wednesday, January 12, 2011 8:21 AM

PIRATENEWS

John Lee, conspiracy therapist at Hollywood award-winner History Channel-mocked SNL-spoofed PirateNew.org wooHOO!!!!!!


Cops arrested Jared Lee Loughner for traffic stop on day of Ariz. shooting, provoked shooter into killing rage

TUCSON, Ariz. – A wildlife officer pulled over the suspect in the assassination attempt against an Arizona congresswoman less than three hours before the deadly attack, authorities said Wednesday as they pieced together more details of a frenzied morning.

Jared Loughner ran a red light but was let off with a warning at 7:30 a.m. Saturday, the Arizona Game and Fish Department said. The officer took Loughner's driver's license and vehicle registration information but found no outstanding warrants on Loughner or his vehicle.

Wildlife officers don't usually make traffic stops unless public safety is at risk, such as running a red light. The stop was on an access road that connects to Interstate 10, well away from the grocery store, said Game and Parks spokesman Jim Paxon.

"He had a valid license, the car was registered, he had insurance," Paxon said. "He was warned and released because we had no probable cause to hold, or do an extensive search."

It's the latest evidence of Loughner's busy morning before police say he showed up at a Tucson grocery store in a taxi at 10:11 a.m. and shot 19 people, killing six, including a federal judge and a 9-year-old girl.

Also that morning, Loughner, 22, ran into the desert from his angry father, who was chasing his son after seeing him remove a black bag from the trunk of a family car, said Rick Kastigar, chief of the department's investigations bureau.

Investigators are still searching for the bag.

Hours after the attack, sheriff's deputies swarmed the Loughners' home and removed what they describe as evidence Loughner was targeting Giffords. Among the handwritten notes was one with the words "Die, bitch," which authorities believe was a reference to Giffords.

Sheriff's deputies had been to the Loughner home at least once before the attack, spokesman Jason Ogan said. He didn't know why or when the visit occurred, and said department lawyers were reviewing the paperwork and expected to release it Wednesday.

The visits were for nonviolent incidents, including a report by Jared Loughner of identity theft, a noise complaint and Amy Loughner's claim that someone had stolen her license plate sticker, according to a report by The Wall Street Journal.

Loughner was arrested in October 2008 on a vandalism charge near Tucson after admitting he scrawled the letters "C" and "X" on a road sign in a reference to what he said was Christianity. His address listed on the police report was an apartment near his home.

Randy Loughner apparently has not worked for years — at least outside his home.

Amy Loughner got a job with the county parks and recreation department just before Jared was born, and since at least 2002 has been the supervisor for Roy P. Drachman Agua Caliente Park on the outskirts of the city. She earns $25.70 an hour, according to Gwyn Hatcher, Pima County's human resources director.

In one apparent reaction to the shooting, the FBI said background checks for handgun sales jumped in Arizona following the shootings, though the agency cautioned that the number of checks doesn't equate to the number of handguns sold.

Still, there were 263 background checks in Arizona on Monday, up from 164 for the same day a year ago — a 60 percent rise. Nationally, the increase was more modest: from 7,522 last year to 7,906 Monday, a 5 percent jump.

82,661 Comments...

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/us_congresswoman_shot


With a throng of reporters gathered outside the Loughner home, tension has flared. On Monday morning, after reports circulated that the family had an occult shrine in their backyard, a photographer wielding a long-lensed camera jumped the back fence to snap pictures of what appeared to be a faux skull and some candles. Randy responded with a call to authorities, who dispatched a few squad cars to look into the incident. "[Mr. Loughner] told that person to leave, and we're investigating the trespassing," said David Theel of the Pima County Sheriff's Department. Randy briefly exited the house with law enforcement to identify a possible suspect, but then returned and stayed put—not even emerging to attend his son’s arraignment in a Phoenix federal court that afternoon. "I've lived here 40 years, and I didn't even know their last name," a woman who lives across the street told The Daily Beast. Randy, who’s believed to be unemployed, spent a lot of time at home. A fit 58 year old with thick, graying hair and a mustache, he moved to the neighborhood at least 30 years ago, before marrying Amy. He can often be seen working on one of three show cars, says next-door neighbor George Gayan. Though Gayan’s great grandson once played with Jared when the two were young, Gayan says Randy eventually made clear he preferred his privacy and erected a wall around the property.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/dailybeast/20110111/ts_dailybeast/11787_ jaredloughnersparentsrandyandamydidtheyknowabouthismentalillness_1

The couple did not attend their son's arraignment in federal court in Phoenix Monday, and one neighbor who's been in contact with them, but asked not to be identified, said they are distraught and grieving. The parents are devastated and guilt-ridden, neighbor Wayne Smith, 70, told KPHO-TV. Jared Loughner's mother has been in bed, crying nonstop since the shooting rampage on Saturday, he said.
http://abcnews.go.com/US/jared-loughner-money-trail-familys-lifestyle-
aided-monkey/story?id=12587114

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