Talk of secession, the South celebrating the Civil War, “Don’t Tread On Me” flags at rallies, and the concerted effort of those in the South to minimize ..."/>

REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

Forward to the past

POSTED BY: NIKI2
UPDATED: Friday, December 24, 2010 10:54
SHORT URL:
VIEWED: 2912
PAGE 1 of 1

Wednesday, December 22, 2010 11:13 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Talk of secession, the South celebrating the Civil War, “Don’t Tread On Me” flags at rallies, and the concerted effort of those in the South to minimize (if not ignore) slavery: one wonders what’s going on...

You hear reverberations of the Civil War almost every day these days, in many ways and many forms, and it makes me wonder. For example:
Quote:

Mississippi Gov. Haley Barbour (R) is trying to quell the political storm kicked up over controversial comments he made about the struggle for civil rights in his state.

In a Weekly Standard magazine profile published Monday, Barbour said he didn't remember it "being that bad" and referred benignly to white groups called Citizens Councils, which were known to enforce segregationist policies throughout the South.

His office released a statement Tuesday morning backtracking from those remarks.

The quote that got Barbour in trouble:
Quote:

“Because the business community wouldn’t stand for it,” he said. “You heard of the Citizens Councils? Up north they think it was like the KKK. Where I come from it was an organization of town leaders. In Yazoo City they passed a resolution that said anybody who started a chapter of the Klan would get their ass run out of town. If you had a job, you’d lose it. If you had a store, they’d see nobody shopped there. We didn’t have a problem with the Klan in Yazoo City.”
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/12/21/AR2010
122103767.html?wprss=rss_nation


He backtracked with:
Quote:

"My point was my town rejected the Ku Klux Klan, but nobody should construe that to mean I think the town leadership were saints, either. Their vehicle, called the 'Citizens Council,' is totally indefensible, as is segregation. It was a difficult and painful era for Mississippi, the rest of the country, and especially African Americans who were persecuted in that time."

The 63-year-old Barbour, who was reared in Mississippi during the height of the civil rights movement and has at various times set off political debates over racial attitudes. For example, in his defense of Virginia Gov. Robert F. McDonnell's Confederate History Month proclamation that initially did not mention slavery as a cause of the Civil War, Barbour said the whole thing "doesn't amount to diddly."

In a 1982 New York Times article, the paper's former editor Howell Raines wrote
Quote:

the racial sensitivity at Barbour headquarters was suggested by an exchange between the candidate and an aide who complained that there would be 'coons' at a campaign stop at the state fair. Embarrassed that a reporter heard this, Mr. Barbour warned that if the aide persisted in racist remarks, he would be reincarnated as a watermelon and placed at the mercy of blacks."
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/12/21/AR2010
122103767.html?wprss=rss_nation


As concerns the “citizens council” he refers to not being anything like the KKK:
Quote:

The White Citizens' Council (WCC) was an American white supremacist organization formed in 1954. With about 60,000 members,[2] mostly in the South, the group was well known for its opposition to racial integration. Its issues involved the protection of "European-American heritage" from those of other ethnicities

African Americans who were seen as being too supportive of desegregation, voting rights, or other perceived threats to whites' supremacy found themselves and their family members unemployed in many instances; whites who supported civil rights for African Americans were not immune from finding this happening to them as well. Members of the Citizens' Council were sometimes Klansmen, and the more influential the Citizens' Council member, the more influence he had with the Klan. In fact, the WCC was even referred to during the civil rights era as "an uptown Klan," "a white collar Klan," "a button-down Klan," and "a country club Klan." The rationale for these nicknames was that it appeared that sheets and hoods had been discarded and replaced by suits and ties. Much like the Klan, WCC members held documented white supremacist views and involved themselves in racist activities. They more often held leadership in civic and political organizations, however, which enabled them to legitimize discriminatory practices aimed at non-whites.

The movement grew as activism and Federal enforcement of racial desegregation became more intense, probably peaking in the early 1960s. Many small Southern towns put up signs at city limits that proclaimed "The White Citizens' Council of (city name) Welcomes You".

Wikipedia

Naw, not like the Klan at all, Barbour’s right; and if some of them WERE Klan, well, it was just incidental. You betcha!

More from the article:
Quote:

In interviews Barbour doesn’t have much to say about growing up in the midst of the civil rights revolution. “I just don’t remember it as being that bad,” he said. “I remember Martin Luther King came to town, in ’62. He spoke out at the old fairground and it was full of people, black and white.” [Asked if he went, Barbour said yes. Asked why? “We wanted to hear him speak”, does he remember what King said?] “I don’t really remember. The truth is, we couldn’t hear very well. We were sort of out there on the periphery. We just sat on our cars, watching the girls, talking, doing what boys do. We paid more attention to the girls than to King.”

Haley and Marsha Barbour’s house is up a winding road on a hillside covered in dogwood and sweetgum trees, just above the nine-hole Yazoo Country Club. Down the hill and across the tracks, Mr. Kelly showed me, is Manchester Academy, where the Barbours sent their two boys. It’s a private K-12 school, founded in 1969.

“It was built for people who didn’t want their children to go to public schools after integration,” Mr. Kelly said.

Much more at http://www.weeklystandard.com/articles/boy-yazoo-city_523551.html?page
=3


Remembering how the remark about “diddly” caused a furor, and given the information above, I would say Haley Barbour hasn’t quite divorced himself from racism, he’s just learned politics...mostly.


Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off





NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Wednesday, December 22, 2010 11:17 AM

WULFENSTAR

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg


We reject your beliefs.

SUPRISE!



"Hope is a good thing, maybe the best of things, and no good thing ever dies"

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Wednesday, December 22, 2010 11:19 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Given how some are trying to downplay slavery as connected to the Civil War, it's interesting that the Confederates themselves though it was THE main reason for secession:
Quote:

The Civil War, the most wrenching and bloody episode in American history, may not seem like much of a cause for celebration, especially in the South.

And yet, as the 150th anniversary of the four-year conflict gets under way, some groups in the old Confederacy are planning at least a certain amount of hoopla, chiefly around the glory days of secession, when 11 states declared their sovereignty under a banner of states’ rights and broke from the union.

The events include a “secession ball” in the former slave port of Charleston (“a joyous night of music, dancing, food and drink,” says the invitation), which will be replicated on a smaller scale in other cities. A parade is being planned in Montgomery, Ala., along with a mock swearing-in of Jefferson Davis as president of the Confederacy.

In addition, the Sons of Confederate Veterans and some of its local chapters are preparing various television commercials that they hope to show next year. “All we wanted was to be left alone to govern ourselves,” says one ad from the group’s Georgia Division.

That some — even now — are honoring secession, with barely a nod to the role of slavery, underscores how divisive a topic the war remains, with Americans continuing to debate its causes, its meaning and its legacy.

“We in the South, who have been kicked around for an awfully long time and are accused of being racist, we would just like the truth to be known,” said Michael Givens, commander-in-chief of the Sons, explaining the reason for the television ads. While there were many causes of the war, he said, “our people were only fighting to protect themselves from an invasion and for their independence.”

Commemorating the Civil War has never been easy. The centennial 50 years ago coincided with the civil rights movement, and most of the South was still effectively segregated, making a mockery of any notion that the slaves had truly become free and equal.

Congress had designated an official centennial commission, which lost credibility when it planned to meet in a segregated hotel; this year, Congress has not bothered with an official commission and any master narrative of the war seems elusive.

“We don’t know what to commemorate because we’ve never faced up to the implications of what the thing was really about,” said Andrew Young, a veteran of the civil rights movement and former mayor of Atlanta.

“The easy answer for black folk is that it set us free, but it really didn’t,” Mr. Young added. “We had another 100 years of segregation. We’ve never had our complete reconciliation of the forces that divide us.”

The passion that the Civil War still evokes was evident earlier this year when Gov. Bob McDonnell of Virginia designated April as Confederate History Month — without mentioning slavery. After a national outcry, he apologized and changed his proclamation to condemn slavery and spell out that slavery had led to war.

The proclamation was urged on him by the Sons of Confederate Veterans, which asserts that the Confederacy was a crusade for small government and states’ rights. The sesquicentennial, which coincides now with the rise of the Tea Party movement, is providing a new chance for adherents to promote that view.

Jeff Antley, a member of the Sons of Confederate Veterans and the Confederate Heritage Trust, is organizing the secession ball in Charleston and a 10-day re-enactment of the Confederate encampment at Fort Sumter, where the first shots of the war were fired on April 12, 1861. He said these events were not about modern politics but were meant to honor those South Carolinians who signed the state’s ordinance of secession on Dec. 20, 1860, when it became the first state to dissolve its union with the United States.

Mr. Antley said. “Many people in the South still believe that is a just and honorable cause. Do I believe they were right in what they did? Absolutely,” he said, noting that he spoke for himself and not any organization. “There’s no shame or regret over the action those men took.”

Most historians say it is impossible to carve out slavery from the context of the war. As James W. Loewen, a liberal sociologist and author of “Lies My Teacher Told Me,” put it: “The North did not go to war to end slavery, it went to war to hold the country together and only gradually did it become anti-slavery — but slavery is why the South seceded.”

In its secession papers, Mississippi, for example, called slavery “the greatest material interest of the world” and said that attempts to stop it would undermine “commerce and civilization.”

The conflict has been playing out in recent decades in disputes over the stories told or not told in museum exhibits and on battlefield plaques.

“These battles of memory are not only academic,” said Mark Potok, the director of intelligence at the Southern Poverty Law Center. “They are really about present-day attitudes. I don’t think the neo-Confederate movement is growing, but it’s gotten a new shot of life because of the sesquicentennial.”

Okay, now a number here have said the Civil War wasn’t about slavery. I grant there were other things at play, but I disagree that slavery wasn’t a large part of the reasons for secession.

Georgia Secession Papers:
Quote:

The people of Georgia having dissolved their political connection with the Government of the United States of America, present to their confederates and the world the causes which have led to the separation. For the last ten years we have had numerous and serious causes of complaint against our non-slave-holding confederate States with reference to the subject of African slavery. They have endeavored to weaken our security, to disturb our domestic peace and tranquility, and persistently refused to comply with their express constitutional obligations to us in reference to that property, and by the use of their power in the Federal Government have striven to deprive us of an equal enjoyment of the common Territories of the Republic.
Mississippi Declaration of Secession:
Quote:

Our position is thoroughly identified with the institution of slavery - the greatest material interest of the world. Its labor supplies the product, which constitutes by far the largest and most important portions of commerce of the earth. These products are peculiar to the climate verging on the tropical regions, and by an imperious law of nature, none but the black race can bear exposure to the tropical sun. These products have become necessities of the world, and a blow at slavery is a blow at commerce and civilization. That blow has been long aimed at the institution, and was at the point of reaching its consummation. There was no choice left us but submission to the mandates of abolition, or a dissolution of the Union, whose principles had been subverted to work out our ruin.
South Carolina Declaration of Secession:
Quote:

We affirm that these ends for which this Government was instituted have been defeated, and the Government itself has been made destructive of them by the action of the non-slaveholding States. Those States have assume the right of deciding upon the propriety of our domestic institutions; and have denied the rights of property established in fifteen of the States and recognized by the Constitution; they have denounced as sinful the institution of slavery; they have permitted open establishment among them of societies, whose avowed object is to disturb the peace and to eloign the property of the citizens of other States. They have encouraged and assisted thousands of our slaves to leave their homes; and those who remain, have been incited by emissaries, books and pictures to servile insurrection.
Texas Declaration of Secession:
Quote:

Texas abandoned her separate national existence and consented to become one of the Confederated Union...She was received into the confederacy...as a commonwealth holding, maintaining and protecting the institution known as negro slavery-- the servitude of the African to the white race within her limits-- a relation that had existed from the first settlement of her wilderness by the white race, and which her people intended should exist in all future time.

In all the non-slave-holding States...the people have formed themselves into a great sectional party...based upon an unnatural feeling of hostility to these Southern States and their beneficent and patriarchal system of African slavery, proclaiming the debasing doctrine of equality of all men, irrespective of race or color-- a doctrine at war with nature, in opposition to the experience of mankind, and in violation of the plainest revelations of Divine Law. They demand the abolition of negro slavery throughout the confederacy, the recognition of political equality between the white and negro races, and avow their determination to press on their crusade against us, so long as a negro slave remains in these States

...all white men are and of right ought to be entitled to equal civil and political rights; that the servitude of the African race, as existing in these States, is mutually beneficial to both bond and free, and is abundantly authorized and justified by the experience of mankind, and the revealed will of the Almighty Creator, as recognized by all Christian nations...

To those who say slavery wasn’t the cause of secession, I ask you why their DECLARATIONS of same contain the above wording? However it came ABOUT, they stated that themselves as their main reason for seceding. Surely if it was economic oppression by the North or something else, as some have contended, they'd have said that?


Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off




NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Wednesday, December 22, 2010 11:26 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


So I ask: What gives? Well, I ask it of those capable of making an intelligent response, anyway.

What's behind this mentality? I realize race is still a problem in this country, but to me it's almost like holocaust denial, an attempt at revising history, and I don't understand why.


Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off




NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Wednesday, December 22, 2010 11:32 AM

WULFENSTAR

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_and_crime_in_the_United_States

Helping you out here Niki.



"Hope is a good thing, maybe the best of things, and no good thing ever dies"

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Wednesday, December 22, 2010 11:38 AM

CUDA77

Like woman, I am a mystery.


http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/thu-december-9-2010/the-south-s-sece
ssion-commemoration


Helping you out here Wulf.

Socialist and unashamed about it.


NOTIFY: N   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Wednesday, December 22, 2010 12:16 PM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Wulf posted something that has nothing whatsoever to do with why the South wants us to forget the Civil War was about slavery (I guess he didn't read anything posted).

Cuda, that's beautiful, and funny...trust Jon's "court jester" group to say it like it is with humor! Wish I could find it on YouTube, I'd post it for those who don't click links!

That revisionist commercial!

ETA: It's "shocking-funny": The argument about "taxes" was about "burgeoning them with taxes for three-fifths of their slaves"

Wilmore is great:

Stewart: You can't pick and choose what parts of the Civil War to remember, you're saying, you can't separate it from slavery.

Wilmore: Riiight, but oh, do they TRY! No one's saying you invented slavery--but you hung onto it like a mutherfucker! And what the Civil War was over you just put in Jim Crow laws and segregation--slavery lite.

It's not about politically correct, it's about CORRECT correct!


Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off




NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Wednesday, December 22, 2010 12:54 PM

CANTTAKESKY


Quote:

Originally posted by Niki2:
What gives?...What's behind this mentality?

It was about slavery. AND it was about state sovereignty.

They wanted to secede and do X. In their view, it doesn't matter what X is, or how atrocious X might be. It is about their right to secede.

It is analogous to the First Amendment right to say X. X may be completely horrendous, but you still have the right to say it. Free speech defenders would celebrate say, a court case protecting the right of the KKK to say hateful things, even if they don't celebrate the content of the speech itself. See?

So the mentality in the South has always been, "I don't care how awful slavery was. It was our right to do it." The Civil War has always been called the War of Northern Aggression in the South. They still feel very strongly about having their state rights abrogated.

Can't Take (my gorram) Sky
------
Everything I say is just my opinion, not fact.

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Wednesday, December 22, 2010 12:57 PM

WULFENSTAR

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg


CT..

Damn, you nailed it.

"Our mistake to make. Not yours to correct."



"Hope is a good thing, maybe the best of things, and no good thing ever dies"

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Wednesday, December 22, 2010 1:05 PM

PHOENIXROSE

You think you know--what's to come, what you are. You haven't even begun.


A friend of mine once said, "When the south wanted to secede, we should have fucking let them. Having the states separated in two countries would have solved a lot of problems and avoided a lot of conflict." I'm not positive he was right, but... he might be.


I do not need the written code of a spiritual belief to act like a decent human being

NOTIFY: N   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Wednesday, December 22, 2010 1:10 PM

WULFENSTAR

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg


The South had a subservant workforce.. which allowed them to compete far and above what the North could.

Thats what the war was about.

The morality of things only came about later, when people got sick of it.



"Hope is a good thing, maybe the best of things, and no good thing ever dies"

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Wednesday, December 22, 2010 2:09 PM

FREMDFIRMA


I still don't see where folk forcing people to fight other people at gunpoint, had any right to bitch about slavery, myself.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_York_Draft_Riots
Seriously, is not gunpoint conscription even WORSE than slavery, being that at least to me, there's some bit of moral difference between working fields and shooting people ?

I think it was a factor, but not nearly as much of one as simple economics and the decline of the intended method of governence into the all-consuming monster that the antifederalists feared greatly and tried to warn us about.

When the rubber met the road, the north showed it's true colors when it was willing to enslave it's own people and force them under threat of violence to fight their own fellow citizens who disagreed with the ruling cabal - they didn't wanna free the slaves, they wanted to make us ALL slaves... TO THEM!

So as far as the concept of slavery goes, I don't think either side of that had even a leg to stand on, as it was more convenient excuse and wedge issue than realistic intention - the institution of slavery itself was falling by the wayside already given the general enlightenment of the world as industrialisation reduced the time spent scratching for survival and allowed people time to actually THINK, and it was only the idiotic rabidity of puritan culture which left america so far behind the rest of the world in that respect to begin with.

As for racism, I can only barely even comprehend it, even in concept, since I thought it was idiotic when I was six, and my opinion ain't improved a whit since.

-Frem
I do not serve the Blind God.

NOTIFY: N   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Wednesday, December 22, 2010 2:32 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Another phony, trumped up attempt to turn the TEA( taxed enough already ) party agenda as being nothing but code speak for racists to rally around. Really?

The Left, knowing the country is against them, simply refuses to let go of the tried and true tactic of divide the people.

With the Bush tax cut extension, it was the class warfare card.

This ? More of the same... " echoes of the civil war " crap.

Don't Tread On Me ? That was from the REVOLUTIONARY WAR. Seems the Left want to confuse the people by intermixing historical events, to suit their own agenda.




But anyone can see what this is really about. Preemptive strike against the mere idea of Haley Barbour running for President. Rattle up the cages and wake those old " civil rights " warriors, huh?

Please.

" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

NOTIFY: N   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Wednesday, December 22, 2010 3:27 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


'Course, the teabaggers SHOULD be pissed about South Carolina diverting $65,000 in TAXPAYER MONEY to pay for the celebration of secession.

As Rappy will agree, when you take MY tax money to celebrate slavery, I have a problem with it.

This Space For Rent!

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Wednesday, December 22, 2010 3:31 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by Wulfenstar:
The South had a subservant workforce.. which allowed them to compete far and above what the North could.

Thats what the war was about.

The morality of things only came about later, when people got sick of it.



"Hope is a good thing, maybe the best of things, and no good thing ever dies"



The South was never close to competing with the North in terms of productivity or workforce. You need to go back to history class. The North had the industrial base; the South relied on slaves to try to do all the work, and the South was being left far, far behind as the nation industrialized and modernized.

This Space For Rent!

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Wednesday, December 22, 2010 8:02 PM

CUDA77

Like woman, I am a mystery.


Wait wait wait, I know this one. I've seen this script with Wulfie before.

"You actually believe what you were taught in school? No wonder..."

Guarantee that his response will be something along those lines.

Socialist and unashamed about it.


NOTIFY: N   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Thursday, December 23, 2010 12:21 PM

DREAMTROVE


Slavery was the corrupt economic interest that supported the otherwise justified concern of the southern states for sovereignty.

Frem

Racism is a presentation of primal forces for competition and survival in limited resources for genetic dominance. It is by no means limited to humans, and in humans, by no means limited to white people.

Most people get this, but What people don't get is that it also goes on within and between much smaller ethnic groups. The English have successfully displaced the Irish as a genetic group through the centuries, but internally, the upper classes of britain displace the lower classes, etc.

At some point, this reaches a level where the genetic disparity may not make sense. The simple answer to this is "what the people who are being racist at the time *believe* to be a genetic group." god forbid anyone suggest to them otherwise. In WWII, the alliance of Germans and Italians doesn't make a lot of genetic sense. If someone had convinced them that the germans were related to Eritreans, and the Italians related to Ethiopians, then the war might have gone differently.

The idea of a white race is the result of "perception" not of reality, but it is the perception which drives their collective activities.

It's not just hate groups that think this way. Studies of people choosing parters shows a very strong tendency to select in favor of the *belief* that someone is superior, genetically, is the major driving force of selection, though almost no one would admit that this was the case.

But racial groups *do* compete, if they did not, therre would be no races. Alas, if there were no genetic selection at all, there would be no evolution. We would all still be monkeys.

The only scientific conclusion I can reach is that it is a part of nature, and to recognize that, and then to recognize we are also civilized and not to treat each other differently because of it.

If would, however, be truly foolish to think that this burden fell only on us. Everyone is going to behave in this manner, to some extent, and you have to expect others to treat you by various selective properties which are not the content of your character.


I don't believe Wulf's implication that the content of character and race are connected, OTOH, I don't think the civil war was about slavery either. I think that no one would lay down their lives to defend a corporate enterprise. It was clearly stated at he time that the civil war was primarily about the plan to marginalize the southern vote, and the reason given for doing this was slavery, but the northerners doing it were much more concerned with power than with human rights, the power brokers were largely not anti-slavery. There was some concern that the federal govt. Had exceeded it's constitutional authority, which was not unwarranted.

Its is rare, if ever, that anyone is ever 100% wrong. I have to admit that Bush came pretty close but still not 100%.

Even the nazis weren't 100% wrong. The south was primarily wrong about two things: slavery and the annexation of Mexico. Strategically, they were wrong on other points, and their member states had been radically wrong on the "Indian question" and the environment.

True, the north was also wrong about a good number of things, and Lincoln especially, as was the resulting union.

Hell, I don't have much use for the political entity called the USA in any of its permutations. I support the bill of rights, but thats really a product of the British Empire, and we inherited it through New England.

As for what the Tea Party wants? I agree with most of it, I think they need to be educated in a few areas, they have internal inconsistancies, but that plan has been weighlayed by more immediate personal concerns.


ETA: intentionally. I mean thAt no one lays down their loves for a corporate interest *intentionally*

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Friday, December 24, 2010 10:54 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Yes, CTTS, I hear that cry all the time. But it appears to me that, from their Cessation Documents, it was ONLY about “state’s rights” to keep slavery. The verbiage is pretty clear; they don’t talk about state’s rights in any other context, only the right to keep slaves. To me, that doesn’t make sense, or give them a viable reason to cry “state’s rights”. It’s not just about slavery, it’s about the MENTALITY of slavery, as I see it. The wording makes very clear that black people are less than human, that it’s white people’s RIGHTS---“god-given rights” as it says, to keep another group of people as property. It’s not about a few “states” having rights, it’s about human BEINGS having rights; they rejected that idea, so they wanted to “take their ball and go home”.

And no, the morality didn’t come into it “later”. The wording of the documents makes that very, very clear. They believed what they wrote; that blacks were subhuman and it was “unnatural” for them to be viewed otherwise.

There are so many VALID arguments for states’ rights, this one doesn’t hold water. It’s about personal greed and total lack of humanity.
Quote:

They wanted to secede and do X. In their view, it doesn't matter what X is, or how atrocious X might be.
That’s about it, and that carries no weight with me. It’s like the Tea Party and all the talk of secession nowadays...they have no concept of what it would be like if they DID leave the Union...in fact I doubt most of them have even considered it. They just want to take their ball and go home. I agree with Rose, it’s hard not to feel that way. I think we should let them, at least I like the idea, and see how well they get on without us.

It would be interesting to me if someone were to take the issue apart; using facts and figures, theorize what would happen to states who secede, get nothing from the federal government, and try to subsist on their own. I think it would be very interesting.

Frem, I disagree. On several points. And we did away with the draft, just as we did away with slavery, so I think it’s a moot point. But I DO think your six-year-old opinion doesn’t NEED “improving” on; I think it’s the view that racism has any basis in reality that does.

DT, I agree with a number of your points; well said.


Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off




NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

YOUR OPTIONS

NEW POSTS TODAY

USERPOST DATE

OTHER TOPICS

DISCUSSIONS
Well... He was no longer useful to the DNC or the Ukraine Money Laundering Scheme... So justice was served
Fri, March 29, 2024 08:57 - 2 posts
Elections; 2024
Fri, March 29, 2024 06:56 - 2076 posts
Russia Invades Ukraine. Again
Fri, March 29, 2024 06:20 - 6156 posts
Russia says 60 dead, 145 injured in concert hall raid; Islamic State group claims responsibility
Fri, March 29, 2024 06:18 - 57 posts
In the garden, and RAIN!!! (2)
Fri, March 29, 2024 02:54 - 3414 posts
BUILD BACK BETTER!
Fri, March 29, 2024 02:49 - 11 posts
Long List of Celebrities that are Still Here
Fri, March 29, 2024 00:00 - 1 posts
China
Thu, March 28, 2024 22:10 - 447 posts
Biden
Thu, March 28, 2024 22:03 - 853 posts
Salon: NBC's Ronna blunder: A failed attempt to appeal to MAGA voters — except they hate her too
Thu, March 28, 2024 07:04 - 1 posts
Russian losses in Ukraine
Wed, March 27, 2024 23:21 - 987 posts
human actions, global climate change, global human solutions
Wed, March 27, 2024 15:03 - 824 posts

FFF.NET SOCIAL