REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

Make Julian Assange irrelevant

POSTED BY: GEEZER
UPDATED: Wednesday, December 22, 2010 03:09
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Monday, December 20, 2010 5:02 AM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up


Interesting op-ed by Dana Milbank in Sunday's Washington Post.

Quote:

Julian Assange was insufferable as he left a London courthouse Thursday.

"During my time in solitary confinement in the bottom of a Victorian prison, I had time to reflect on the conditions of those people around the world also in solitary confinement," he said after posting bail - as if nine days in an English jail fighting extradition to Sweden on sex charges made him a regular Nelson Mandela.

Before Assange motored off to his house arrest at a friend's mansion, one of his lawyers expressed his determination that Assange "will not be going back to that cell once occupied by Oscar Wilde."

Oscar Wilde? Those cheeky Brits. Assange's indiscriminate dump of American government secrets over the last several months - with hardly a care for who might be hurt or what public good was served - can be summarized nicely by a line from Wilde's play "A Woman of No Importance": Nothing succeeds like excess.

I can understand why Obama administration figures want to prosecute Assange for espionage or other crimes. I confess I'd like to throw a cream pie in his face myself.

But prosecuting Assange would give him exactly what he wants: proof that America is hypocritical, that we don't live by the freedoms we preach. Assange would like nothing more than to be a martyr - and President Obama shouldn't give that to him.

The better way to deal with Assange is to make him irrelevant. The only reason WikiLeaks has been a sensation is the absurd secrecy of the Obama administration, in some ways worse than that of George W. Bush. The reflexive classifying has, by creating the perception that the government has much to hide, created a market for WikiLeaks.

In fact, the WikiLeaks disclosures have been generally benign. Vice President Biden said Thursday that he didn't see "any substantive damage" from them. The biggest revelation was that so many supposed government secrets really aren't secrets. (Silvio Berlusconi loves to party - who knew?)

The episode spotlighted Obama's surprisingly poor record on government openness. The administration has already undertaken four prosecutions of government leakers, more than any predecessor, in some cases using the arcane, World War I-era Espionage Act. At the same time, the administration stymied efforts in Congress to pass a "shield law" to protect journalists' confidential sources.

Government-secrecy watchdog Steven Aftergood at the Federation of American Scientists reports that the administration has yet to produce recommendations for the "fundamental transformation" of the security classification system that Obama ordered a year ago. The government in the first six months of this year declassified only 8 million of the 400 million documents it is supposed to release by 2013. Over-classification is so prevalent that even the Pentagon Papers - leaked by Daniel Ellsberg nearly four decades ago - are still classified as Top Secret.

It's little wonder that Ellsberg himself empathizes with WikiLeaks. At a news conference at the National Press Club on Thursday - shortly before going to chain himself to the White House fence in a protest - the 79-year-old Ellsberg said Assange is a hero. Convicting Assange, he said, "would mean that the crown had returned to America . . . and that we're really under a monarchical system of total control of information."

Ellsberg was accompanied by an activist from Assange's Australia, who lectured Americans on free speech. "We thought that America stood firm for the Constitution, for its First Amendment rights," said the activist, Brett Solomon. "If something has changed, then let us know."

That bloke was as insufferable as Assange. But the administration is playing into their hands by trying to keep harmless information secret. On this point, there was bipartisan agreement at a House Judiciary Committee hearing Thursday after Ellsberg's news conference. Chairman John Conyers complained of "rampant over-classification." Rep. Ted Poe (R-Tex.) said he was "very concerned about our own over-classification." Rep. Bill Delahunt (D-Mass.) detected "the trademark of totalitarianism."

Thomas Blanton of the National Security Archive at George Washington University said that between 50 percent and 90 percent of classified material shouldn't be; the result is "vast prairies" of phony government secrets that are impossible to protect.

It achieves little to punish Assange for trespassing on the prairie, either by prosecuting him (as Sen. Dianne Feinstein and other Democrats suggest) or hunting him like a terrorist (as Sarah Palin would have it).

Instead, end the obsessive classification that made Assange possible - and deny him the martyrdom he desires. President Obama: Forgive your enemies; nothing annoys them so much.

Didn't Oscar Wilde say that?



http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/12/17/AR2010
121704193.html?nav=rss_opinion/columns


Pretty good take on the egotist that is Assange.

Also nteresting that the Obama administration is keeping more secrets and prosecuting more folks for leaks than any previous administration.





"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Monday, December 20, 2010 7:43 AM

CANTTAKESKY


I don't know Assange. I can't comment on his character. But I do know I support the work Wikileaks is doing.

But I agree with the article that Wikileaks should become irrelevant. If it does its job right, it should work itself out of a job.

The best way to deal with Wikileaks is to not have secrets to begin with.

Can't Take (my gorram) Sky
------
Everything I say is just my opinion, not fact.

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Monday, December 20, 2010 8:38 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by canttakesky:
I don't know Assange. I can't comment on his character. But I do know I support the work Wikileaks is doing.

But I agree with the article that Wikileaks should become irrelevant. If it does its job right, it should work itself out of a job.

The best way to deal with Wikileaks is to not have secrets to begin with.

Can't Take (my gorram) Sky
------
Everything I say is just my opinion, not fact.




Right on.


This Space For Rent!

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Monday, December 20, 2010 11:07 AM

MAGONSDAUGHTER


So Assange is an egoist? So would every leader and the majority of politicans worldwide, most business leaders, actors, actresses, rich people, famous people. We live in a world of inflated egos. Sometimes some of those egos enable great things to happen, other times they are just prancing around obsessed with their own image.

What is clear is that the American media by and large hates Assange, and are trying to tarnish his image in any way that they can. Funny, I would have thought the Washington Post might be different.

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Monday, December 20, 2010 11:09 AM

HERO


Quote:

Originally posted by canttakesky:
I don't know Assange. I can't comment on his character. But I do know I support the work Wikileaks is doing.


I like the part where wikileaks leaked the police reports on Assange's rapes and it turns out they have a pretty good case after all and despite his denials...oh, wait... that wasn't wikileaks and Assange wants the person who leaked that info prosecuted.

You claim to support wikileaks. I don't believe you. The only way to prove it is for you to post your name, address, date of birth, social security number, all your credit card numbers, all your bank information, passwords (computer and bank), your comprehensive medical history, nude photos of yourself, and provide on request copies of your car and house keys, birth certificate, and any other information that might be considered "private".

If you support wikileaks you wont have a problem with going 'secret free'. Think of it as the wikileaks equivilant of 'going green'.

H

"Hero. I have come to respect you." "I am forced to agree with Hero here."- Chrisisall, 2009.
"I would rather not ignore your contributions." Niki2, 2010.

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Monday, December 20, 2010 11:33 AM

MAGONSDAUGHTER


If you let a million people have access to that information, would you still whine like a baby when somebody let slip with your details?

What wikileaks has exposed is the neighborhood bitch's gossip, the one who has been undermining and meddling and manipulating every one else's affairs. Of course she is going to crack it when it becomes evident about what she has been up to.

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Monday, December 20, 2010 11:49 AM

CANTTAKESKY


Quote:

Originally posted by Hero:
You claim to support wikileaks. I don't believe you.

There is a difference between government privacy or institutional privacy and personal privacy.

In the first instance, transparency is a matter of public service. In the second instance, privacy is a matter of self-ownership.

Can't Take (my gorram) Sky
------
Everything I say is just my opinion, not fact.

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Monday, December 20, 2010 11:54 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by canttakesky:
Quote:

Originally posted by Hero:
You claim to support wikileaks. I don't believe you.

There is a difference between government privacy or institutional privacy and personal privacy.

In the first instance, transparency is a matter of public service. In the second instance, privacy is a matter of self-ownership.

Can't Take (my gorram) Sky
------
Everything I say is just my opinion, not fact.




Exactly. Tell us all, "Hero" - is Wikileaks posting up the credit card info, names, addresses, and SSNs of individuals? Is it even doing that for GOVERNMENT employees?

My local police have decided that if you get pulled over, they get to draw your blood and test it. By your example and logic, that means that, since they get to use any evidence found in that blood against a person in a court of law (hence making it part of the public record), that people now have no right to have their medical records and medical history private.

This Space For Rent!

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Monday, December 20, 2010 11:56 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


By the way, "Hero", since you seem so willing to give government ALL the same rights as individuals have, will you give them the same responsibilities, too?

For instance, it's been conclusively proven that Dubya, when he was governor of Texas, ordered the executions of at least TWO men. Since he's now a serial killer, isn't he eligible for the death penalty for his crimes?

This Space For Rent!

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Monday, December 20, 2010 12:08 PM

HERO


Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:
Exactly. Tell us all, "Hero" - is Wikileaks posting up the credit card info, names, addresses, and SSNs of individuals?


No. But logically they should.

Otherwise they are making a subjective judgement about the secrets they think should be kept while denying the right of others, such as American citizens, to do the same either individually or collectively through the aegis of their government.

Further, by publishing classified information they are providing direct support for those opposed to American interests regardless of the distinction between healthy international competition or outright armed conflict.

I find it ironic that you would fight so hard for one person's secrets, but disregard those of 300 million other folks held in trust by our govt. You would argue the govt is corrupt and therefor does not represent the interests of the people. My counter is that your determination of the legitimacy of the govt does not matter since its a collective decision on the part of the people that empower it in whatever form it takes.

H

"Hero. I have come to respect you." "I am forced to agree with Hero here."- Chrisisall, 2009.
"I would rather not ignore your contributions." Niki2, 2010.

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Monday, December 20, 2010 12:20 PM

DREAMTROVE


Oh goodie, more jackboot licking.

Anyone trying to undermine the alliances ability to kill people should be recognized and respected by any real browncoat. It's very obvious what Assange is about, he told us many times. Transparency in action results in accountability, and if everyone knew they would always be accountable for their actions, they might behave differently.


CTS brings up an interesting point. I think the difference between govt and personal privacy is two fold:

1) the govt. is purporting to be accountable to the people, and hence, must disclose.

2) the people are not up to what the govt, is up to. Even when the govt is only talking and planning to invade Iran, they are making war.

Fewer than 100 US principles and advisors have been responsible for probably in excess of 20 million deaths. That comes out to an average of 200,000 deaths per person. Undoubtedly that blame is not even, and some would easily clear a million. Even if you disagree with my numbers, and think the civilian causal ties of our last ten wars since 1990 were say, a low ball figure, maybe 2 million, or you're a real jackboot licker and was to go down to 200,000, and even if you think that far more people were involved, say all members of all administrations and executives under their control including all members of congress, you up it to around 2,000, then you still have between a hundred and a thousand deaths per person.

Does anyone really think that if Julian Assange and co knew about your personal slaughter of a hundred, a thousand or a million people, that they would NOT leak that information?!?!?

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Monday, December 20, 2010 12:55 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Yeah, "Hero" here can't seem to draw any distinction between SOME privacy and NO privacy.

Wikileaks's document dumps have, according to the U.S. government and the U.S. Department of Defense, put NO Americans in harm's way and have not materially hurt us in any way.

What they HAVE done is embarrass people. And that's the whole point. He's trying to show that our government - and others around the world - attempts to cover up its nefarious deeds and dubious words by merely declaring such things "state secrets", regardless of whether they have any real bearing on matters of state or diplomacy.

Again, "Hero" - by your own definitions and logic, since a court can obtain my DNA by court order, then ALL of my genetic information should be available to everyone, as should everybody else's. Ditto their bloodwork.



This Space For Rent!

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Monday, December 20, 2010 12:58 PM

FREMDFIRMA



Oh please, turnabout is fair play, america and their alphabet goons wanna know everyone elses biz down to the last natty detail (hell at one point in those files they specifically ask how much one would think it'd take to get a certain diplomat blitzed!) and yet when you start peekin back they throw a hissy ?

Waah waah waah, too goddamn bad - thing about a surveillence society is that it can work BOTH ways, and the fact that the damn "authorities" wanna make it illegal to do to THEM what they're doing to YOU, just shows their inherent classist, neo-feudal intentions - what's next, Sumptuary Law ?
Oh, wait, we ALREADY have those, at least for kids...
http://nospank.net/uniforms.htm
http://nospank.net/alvin.htm
http://nospank.net/sumpt2.htm
Quote:

Today in the United States some people want to bring back sumptuary laws--not for themselves, of course--but for students at school. They have some theories about the value of making all young people conform to clothing styles not of their own choosing. They think that if students are required to wear clothes that are a constant reminder of their subordinate status, they will be more submissive to authority. That theory doesn't hold up in practice. Dress codes are more likely to provoke resentment than promote cooperation. The only reason they worked in King Henry VIII's day is because anyone who bucked authority risked a date with the hangman. This is not the 16th century. And sumptuary laws are not the American way.

And the bastards not only snoop, but many of their so-called "experts" foisted on them by groups with their own goddamn agenda, advocate harrassment and disruption of folk simply because of color or belief.

5 revelations from the Post’s ‘Monitoring America’ investigation
http://news.yahoo.com/s/yblog_thelookout/20101220/ts_yblog_thelookout/
the-5-most-surprising-revelations-from-the-posts-monitoring-america-investigation

Quote:

To fill the void, self-styled experts with fairly extreme views on the scope of the Muslim terrorist threat are asked to come in and train local authorities, the Post reports....

Virginia's fusion center named historically black colleges as "potential" terrorism hubs; Maryland State Police infiltrated local groups that lobbied for bike lanes and human rights; and a contractor in Pennsylvania writing an intelligence bulletin flagged meetings of the Tea Party Patriots Coalition and environmental activists.


It's fucking COINTELPRO, all over again, because as I have repeatedly pointed out, when we finally go call the bastards to heel, it's all forgive-n-forget, and then they go right on doin this shit.

Next time, finish the fucking job.

-Frem

I do not serve the Blind God.

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Monday, December 20, 2010 4:14 PM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Quote:

Originally posted by Hero:
Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:
Exactly. Tell us all, "Hero" - is Wikileaks posting up the credit card info, names, addresses, and SSNs of individuals?


No. But logically they should.

Otherwise they are making a subjective judgement about the secrets they think should be kept while denying the right of others, such as American citizens, to do the same either individually or collectively through the aegis of their government.

Further, by publishing classified information they are providing direct support for those opposed to American interests regardless of the distinction between healthy international competition or outright armed conflict.

I find it ironic that you would fight so hard for one person's secrets, but disregard those of 300 million other folks held in trust by our govt. You would argue the govt is corrupt and therefor does not represent the interests of the people. My counter is that your determination of the legitimacy of the govt does not matter since its a collective decision on the part of the people that empower it in whatever form it takes.

H

"Hero. I have come to respect you." "I am forced to agree with Hero here."- Chrisisall, 2009.
"I would rather not ignore your contributions." Niki2, 2010.




Hello,

I am not a lawyer, but it didn't take me long to find relevant references to privacy law in the United States.

Quote:


Public disclosure of private facts arises where one person reveals information which is not of public concern, and the release of which would offend a reasonable person.[13] "Unlike libel or slander, truth is not a defense for invasion of privacy."[14] Disclosure of private facts includes publishing or widespread dissemination of little-known, private facts that are non-newsworthy, not part of public records, public proceedings, not of public interest, and would be offensive to a reasonable person if made public.[15]



It seems pretty plain to me. The law does make a distinction between credit cards and political activities. One is not of the public interest. The other is.

--Anthony



Assured by friends that the signal-to-noise ratio has improved on this forum, I have disabled web filtering.

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Tuesday, December 21, 2010 3:00 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by Hero:
Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:
Exactly. Tell us all, "Hero" - is Wikileaks posting up the credit card info, names, addresses, and SSNs of individuals?


No. But logically they should.




And now comes the news that the FBI and "Homeland Security" are basically doing just that - posting up the personal info of people (including cell phone numbers, addresses, license numbers, etc.) whom OTHERS have reported as indulging in "suspicious activity". And it's said that the government is now SELLING this database as well.

http://vpr.net/npr/132203894/ (the audio has more of the story, and more info than the page does)

Maybe that's "Hero's" biggest problem with it: Wikileaks isn't charging for his information, so isn't enough of a capitalist.


So... our government says we HAVE no right to privacy, and no legal expectation of same. But they have absolutely no intention of playing by the same rules.

"Hero", why shouldn't we be able to do everything to them that they're "allowed" to do to us? We have more and more police making it illegal to record them, while we have warrantless wiretaps being used against American citizens on a regular basis.

What "Hero" is arguing for here is a police state, a closed society in the image of the old Soviet Union. Make no mistake about it; that's exactly what he wants.

This Space For Rent!

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Tuesday, December 21, 2010 3:21 AM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up


Quote:

Originally posted by canttakesky:
I don't know Assange. I can't comment on his character. But I do know I support the work Wikileaks is doing.



So what, in your opinion, has Wikileaks accomplished?

"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Tuesday, December 21, 2010 4:46 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


I could as easily ask who they've harmed, who has been killed because of Wikileaks...


What struck me in the follow-on to the State Department document leak was this: Everyone said it was "embarrassing" for State; no one denied the accuracy or provenance of the documents; yet still, rather than look at their own behavior (as in, let's not go around talking smack and gossiping about world leaders in our internal e-mails, and let's not say things in documents that we wouldn't say in public) with a fresh eye toward changing how they characterize not only our "enemies", but also our "allies" - rather than do any of that, their first instinct was "How do we beef up security to keep this from happening again?"

If you're looking for a real benefit Wikileaks has provided, you could always look at the area of security. I'll bet the security-theatre companies are just LOVING Assange right about now, since they'll be getting new clients and hefty bonuses.



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Tuesday, December 21, 2010 4:50 AM

KANEMAN


Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:
Quote:

Originally posted by canttakesky:
Quote:

Originally posted by Hero:
You claim to support wikileaks. I don't believe you.

There is a difference between government privacy or institutional privacy and personal privacy.

In the first instance, transparency is a matter of public service. In the second instance, privacy is a matter of self-ownership.

Can't Take (my gorram) Sky
------
Everything I say is just my opinion, not fact.




Exactly. Tell us all, "Hero" - is Wikileaks posting up the credit card info, names, addresses, and SSNs of individuals? Is it even doing that for GOVERNMENT employees?

My local police have decided that if you get pulled over, they get to draw your blood and test it. By your example and logic, that means that, since they get to use any evidence found in that blood against a person in a court of law (hence making it part of the public record), that people now have no right to have their medical records and medical history private.

This Space For Rent!




Blah.

Reap what you sow, you like big government. You can't say out of one side of your gay face that the government has the right to peoples wages, and then seem a tad bitchlike when that government wants your blood.....I'm sure you think it feels good on your buttcheeks, but you should not straddle the fence.

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Tuesday, December 21, 2010 4:51 AM

KANEMAN


Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:
Quote:

Originally posted by canttakesky:
Quote:

Originally posted by Hero:
You claim to support wikileaks. I don't believe you.

There is a difference between government privacy or institutional privacy and personal privacy.

In the first instance, transparency is a matter of public service. In the second instance, privacy is a matter of self-ownership.

Can't Take (my gorram) Sky
------
Everything I say is just my opinion, not fact.




Exactly. Tell us all, "Hero" - is Wikileaks posting up the credit card info, names, addresses, and SSNs of individuals? Is it even doing that for GOVERNMENT employees?

My local police have decided that if you get pulled over, they get to draw your blood and test it. By your example and logic, that means that, since they get to use any evidence found in that blood against a person in a court of law (hence making it part of the public record), that people now have no right to have their medical records and medical history private.

This Space For Rent!




Blah.

Reap what you sow, you like big government. You can't say out of one side of your gay face that the government has the right to peoples wages, and then seem a tad bitchlike when that government wants your blood.....I'm sure you think it feels good on your buttcheeks, but you should not straddle the fence.

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Tuesday, December 21, 2010 5:42 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Quote:

Originally posted by Geezer:
Quote:

Originally posted by canttakesky:
I don't know Assange. I can't comment on his character. But I do know I support the work Wikileaks is doing.



So what, in your opinion, has Wikileaks accomplished?

"Keep the Shiny side up"




Hello,

Below is information of public interest that wikileaks published. These are newsworthy items whose publication I advocate.

*****************

In November 2007, a March 2003 copy of Standard Operating Procedures for Camp Delta detailing the protocol of the U.S. Army at the Guantanamo Bay detention camp was released.[129] The document revealed that some prisoners were off-limits to the International Committee of the Red Cross, something that the U.S. military had in the past repeatedly denied.

In September, internal documents from Kaupthing Bank were leaked, from shortly before the collapse of Iceland's banking sector, which led to the 2008–2010 Icelandic financial crisis. The document shows that suspiciously large sums of money were loaned to various owners of the bank, and large debts written off.

During 2008 and 2009, WikiLeaks published the alleged lists of forbidden or illegal web addresses for Australia, Denmark and Thailand. These were originally created to prevent access to child pornography and terrorism, but the leaks revealed that other sites covering unrelated subjects were also listed.

In April, a classified video of the 12 July 2007 Baghdad airstrike was released, showing two Reuters employees being fired at, after the pilots mistakenly thought the men were carrying weapons, which were in fact cameras.

In July, WikiLeaks released 92,000 documents related to the war in Afghanistan between 2004 and the end of 2009 to The Guardian, The New York Times and Der Spiegel. The documents detail individual incidents including friendly fire and civilian casualties.

************************

--Anthony


Assured by friends that the signal-to-noise ratio has improved on this forum, I have disabled web filtering.

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Tuesday, December 21, 2010 7:37 AM

PEACEKEEPER

Keeping order in every verse


Here's aradical thought.Secrets, no matter how benign or otherwise, are secrets. If you as an individual wish to keep some meaningless piece of informtion secret, then that is your prerogative and piss on the sticky beak tosser who fails to respect that.
If on the other hand, the secret you keep is vitally important that it be kept,then whoever leaks it needs shooting.
Basically, mind your own business, whether that be as an individual or as an institution. Wikileaks, IMO, has no right to blather about anything. If a government wishes to keep somethings secret, so what? It ain't gonna bother you, until you actually fuckin know about it!!!!
I must be in a very small minority who actually think that most western governments are pretty good, compared to what you COULD have.Regardless of your vehemence against them, I still believe that even semi-unpopular decisions are generally brought about for the good of the whole. Let them keep their secrets, just as I will keep mine. Why CARE so bloody much!!!

Peacekeeper---keeping order in every verse!!!

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Tuesday, December 21, 2010 7:42 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Hello,

What a bizarre thought, that government should be able to do anything it likes as long as it can label the practice 'secret.'

Generally, such scenarios are the subject of dystopian fiction and real-life governments absent of freedom.

--Anthony


Assured by friends that the signal-to-noise ratio has improved on this forum, I have disabled web filtering.

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Tuesday, December 21, 2010 9:11 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by peacekeeper:
Here's aradical thought.Secrets, no matter how benign or otherwise, are secrets. If you as an individual wish to keep some meaningless piece of informtion secret, then that is your prerogative and piss on the sticky beak tosser who fails to respect that.
If on the other hand, the secret you keep is vitally important that it be kept,then whoever leaks it needs shooting.
Basically, mind your own business, whether that be as an individual or as an institution. Wikileaks, IMO, has no right to blather about anything. If a government wishes to keep somethings secret, so what? It ain't gonna bother you, until you actually fuckin know about it!!!!
I must be in a very small minority who actually think that most western governments are pretty good, compared to what you COULD have.Regardless of your vehemence against them, I still believe that even semi-unpopular decisions are generally brought about for the good of the whole. Let them keep their secrets, just as I will keep mine. Why CARE so bloody much!!!

Peacekeeper---keeping order in every verse!!!



So, PK, in your universe, is a government considered automatically "good" if it's a "western" government?

Not to godwin the whole thread, but wasn't Nazi Germany a "western" government at the time? They DID think the concentration camps were "for the good of the whole", I'm sure...

What Wikileaks is trying to expose, as I keep pointing out, is the practice of keeping things secret, NOT because they're of some vital national security import, but because those in charge just don't want to have to answer questions about such practices. For instance, when Dick Cheney was VP, he held "secret" meetings with top energy company officials to set an official government energy policy. One of those officials was Enron CEO (and big-time Bush contributor) Ken Lay. In the aftermath of that meeting, Enron started "fixing" prices on electricity, which led to rolling blackouts in California, and also led to practices which collapsed the entire company.

But you seem to be saying that this was all for "the good of the whole". Tens of thousands of people had their life savings wiped out when the company collapsed. What "whole" was served by the "good" of such secrecy?

This Space For Rent!

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Tuesday, December 21, 2010 9:46 AM

CANTTAKESKY


Quote:

Originally posted by Geezer:
So what, in your opinion, has Wikileaks accomplished?

In addition to what Anthony listed, I also appreciated knowing the following:

1. Collateral murder video.
http://www.collateralmurder.com/

2. Tax payers are still paying DynCorp, this time to buy boys for Afghan cops to rape.

http://blogs.houstonpress.com/hairballs/2010/12/wikileaks_texas_compan
y_helped.php


Despite that, we're STILL paying them.
http://www.wired.com/dangerroom/2010/12/controversial-firm-snags-anoth
er-billion-dollar-afghan-police-deal
/

3. Exposing the totalitarian streak our govt has on media they don't like:

http://www.techdirt.com/blog.php?tag=wikileaks&edition=techdirt

and highlighting the role of the free press in a free society.
Quote:

It is often easy to overlook how fearful of centralized government power they [founding fathers] were, and how much they trusted a free press to be a bulwark against it.

http://www.stltoday.com/news/local/columns/editors-desk/article_a87f57
6a-fcab-11df-97fa-0017a4a78c22.html


4. Creepy biometric stalking of foreign leaders.

http://www.wired.com/dangerroom/2010/11/u-s-chases-foreign-leaders-dna
-wikileaks-shows
/

5. Stories like the CIA Red Cell report highlighting the danger of America as an exporter of terrorism--it shows our govt is aware of such problems but is doing nothing to correct it.

http://www.slideshare.net/akashag11111/wikileaks-cia-red-cell-special-
memorandum-on-what-if


Well, the list goes on. You get the idea. It shows how corrupt our govt is, and how much it does NOT represent what Americans want in a government.

Can't Take (my gorram) Sky
------
Everything I say is just my opinion, not fact.

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Tuesday, December 21, 2010 11:35 AM

PEACEKEEPER

Keeping order in every verse


Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:
Quote:

Originally posted by peacekeeper:
Here's aradical thought.Secrets, no matter how benign or otherwise, are secrets. If you as an individual wish to keep some meaningless piece of informtion secret, then that is your prerogative and piss on the sticky beak tosser who fails to respect that.
If on the other hand, the secret you keep is vitally important that it be kept,then whoever leaks it needs shooting.
Basically, mind your own business, whether that be as an individual or as an institution. Wikileaks, IMO, has no right to blather about anything. If a government wishes to keep somethings secret, so what? It ain't gonna bother you, until you actually fuckin know about it!!!!
I must be in a very small minority who actually think that most western governments are pretty good, compared to what you COULD have.Regardless of your vehemence against them, I still believe that even semi-unpopular decisions are generally brought about for the good of the whole. Let them keep their secrets, just as I will keep mine. Why CARE so bloody much!!!

Peacekeeper---keeping order in every verse!!!



So, PK, in your universe, is a government considered automatically "good" if it's a "western" government?

Not to godwin the whole thread, but wasn't Nazi Germany a "western" government at the time? They DID think the concentration camps were "for the good of the whole", I'm sure...

What Wikileaks is trying to expose, as I keep pointing out, is the practice of keeping things secret, NOT because they're of some vital national security import, but because those in charge just don't want to have to answer questions about such practices. For instance, when Dick Cheney was VP, he held "secret" meetings with top energy company officials to set an official government energy policy. One of those officials was Enron CEO (and big-time Bush contributor) Ken Lay. In the aftermath of that meeting, Enron started "fixing" prices on electricity, which led to rolling blackouts in California, and also led to practices which collapsed the entire company.

But you seem to be saying that this was all for "the good of the whole". Tens of thousands of people had their life savings wiped out when the company collapsed. What "whole" was served by the "good" of such secrecy?

This Space For Rent!

Replace the word "Western" with "Democratic" or "Civilised" or "Whatever". I think you know vaguely what I'm trying to aim at. And-------Still don't care!!!!

Peacekeeper---keeping order in every verse!!!

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Tuesday, December 21, 2010 12:53 PM

DREAMTROVE


CTS

Yes, this is much more on target


PK

Yes. But you're not a serial killer responsible for the deaths of thousands or millions, or if you are, then yes, we want to know.


Mike,

Yes, Nazi Germany was a shiny example of western democracy, and very much a part of our current cultural power elite


Frem

Our new generation of global domination lunatics are more savvy than their predecessors, they don't make their plans blatant, but prefer more subtle tactics. Thus slavery has been redefined as Jobs, something you should want, and restrictions as Rights, death is choice, and ownership is a service, providing debt, which we call credit.

How would such a society enact sumptuary laws? Perhaps it already has, only it has sold them as "fashion trends." yes, grab that ghetto look, please, and pass it on, because then we know who you are at a glance.

Curious thought that twenty or thirty years ago you would never know a Muslim on sight. Convenient for our overlords that the mullahs decided to promote this idea of obvious self identifiers.

Just a thought.

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Tuesday, December 21, 2010 12:57 PM

DREAMTROVE


Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:
Yeah, "Hero" here can't seem to draw any distinction between SOME privacy and NO privacy.

Wikileaks's document dumps have, according to the U.S. government and the U.S. Department of Defense, put NO Americans in harm's way and have not materially hurt us in any way.

What they HAVE done is embarrass people. And that's the whole point. He's trying to show that our government - and others around the world - attempts to cover up its nefarious deeds and dubious words by merely declaring such things "state secrets", regardless of whether they have any real bearing on matters of state or diplomacy.

Again, "Hero" - by your own definitions and logic, since a court can obtain my DNA by court order, then ALL of my genetic information should be available to everyone, as should everybody else's. Ditto their bloodwork.



This Space For Rent!



Mike,

It was not a personal attack, it was more a general observation of how out of line with the 1st our right wing coalition had become, that its self destructive anti-american totalitarianism had spread to even the more moderate members.

In order to be responding to hero, alone, I would have to care (now that one was personal) [/snark]

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Tuesday, December 21, 2010 1:45 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


PK - if you truly "don't care", why did you bother to weigh in at all?

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Tuesday, December 21, 2010 2:02 PM

PEACEKEEPER

Keeping order in every verse


Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:
PK - if you truly "don't care", why did you bother to weigh in at all?

Well,the point is that neither of us live under regimes whereby millions of people are routinely slaughterd etc.etc.The secrets that they keep are generally because of "interests of national security". I am not really a supporter of conspiracy theories.ALL Governments have secrets.When I say I don't care, I mean to say that because I live in a relatively peaceful society, where we don't have ridiculously radical things going on,I don't really have any interest in what secrets they keep!!! And if those secrets are kept in order to save themselves embarrassment over things they are not proud of, I get that. I would do the same.
To try and uncover every dirty little secret is counterproductive. It creates more problems than it solves.
Say for example that "Man landing on the moon" was proved to be a total hoax. If that was ever leaked out to the general populus, could you imagine the ramifications of it.Some things are secret for a bloody good reason!! We would all like to think that Government should be totally honest and transparent etc etc, but it ain't ever gonna happen!!!! I'm just trying to be realistic. I stop caring about things that cannot be controlled, nor should perhaps.
I'm not deliberately trying to be radical or inflammatory, I just think that somethings are best left alone, or you'll worry yourself to death over it.

Peacekeeper---keeping order in every verse!!!

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Tuesday, December 21, 2010 2:16 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


PK, I tend to take a different view, and believe that knowing such things CAN lead to things getting changed. We didn't get out of Vietnam because we won - we got out because it became clear that we COULDN'T win. And that became clear in large part because of the Pentagon Papers, in which "secrets" were indeed leaked.

I find my country's actions at Abu Ghraib and Guantanamo Bay to be despicable and shameful, and I disagree that keeping such things secret would have been for the better, for anybody. I believe that if my President is a war criminal, he should be tried as a war criminal. And I believe that that holds true no matter which political party he belongs to.

If you want to keep your politicians honest, sometimes you actually have to hold them accountable for their actions.

This Space For Rent!

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Tuesday, December 21, 2010 3:34 PM

FREMDFIRMA



Because we cannot vote our interests if the fuckers in charge LIE to us - we cannot support or refuse to support policies we are NOT MADE AWARE OF.

It spits in the face of all that is representative democracy, that is why.

Oh, and in regards to the Govt and Corps selling those databases, so too do the credit reporting companies - who then turn around and blame YOU when some dickhead THEY sold your information to uses it to defraud you, then run down YOUR credit rating, offer to sell you some protection scammery...

And then say they need MORE info to "prove" your identity, which they then sell to the next sumbitch...

In short, credit scoring, and the companies which provide it, are a problem masquerading as it's own solution - a scam of epic scale.

Which is WHY YOU LIE - at any time someone without what you, personally, consider good and proper cause to know, demands information from you for purposes they either lied to you about, or refuse to divulge, YOU LIE TO THEM.
(which is, imho - even wiser than refusing to answer and getting branded a problem, neh?)

And especially for fucking with register drones at the store, memorize THIS zip code.
17927
That's Centralia Pennsylvania, the only zipcode in history revoked by the post office, and it'll foul things up nicely somewhere further down in the works after you're long gone.

-Frem

I do not serve the Blind God.

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Tuesday, December 21, 2010 9:26 PM

MAGONSDAUGHTER


Quote:

Originally posted by peacekeeper:
Here's aradical thought.Secrets, no matter how benign or otherwise, are secrets. If you as an individual wish to keep some meaningless piece of informtion secret, then that is your prerogative and piss on the sticky beak tosser who fails to respect that.
If on the other hand, the secret you keep is vitally important that it be kept,then whoever leaks it needs shooting.
Basically, mind your own business, whether that be as an individual or as an institution. Wikileaks, IMO, has no right to blather about anything. If a government wishes to keep somethings secret, so what? It ain't gonna bother you, until you actually fuckin know about it!!!!
I must be in a very small minority who actually think that most western governments are pretty good, compared to what you COULD have.Regardless of your vehemence against them, I still believe that even semi-unpopular decisions are generally brought about for the good of the whole. Let them keep their secrets, just as I will keep mine. Why CARE so bloody much!!!

Peacekeeper---keeping order in every verse!!!



Well as I always tell my kid, secrets should only be good, otherwise you should tell someone if something bad is going down.

The trouble is that government is supposed to represent us, not reign over us. It should be more transparent, but does everything in its power to obsficate. Corporations are probably worse.

I might also add that if things are really worth keeping secret, ie for safety reasons, then you need to be responsible for them being safe. It's no use allowing a million people access and then getting your nickers in a knot when that information is leaked.

I think the other issue is that governments and corporations know a hell of a lot about us. we think our bank details, address, who we are sleeping with is private, but somebody somewhere knows it and we may not even know who they are. Privacy is kind of an illusion as far as I can tell.

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Tuesday, December 21, 2010 11:02 PM

FREMDFIRMA



The only way a state secret is ever really kept, Magons - is if the folk in charge of it honestly, truly BELIEVE it really does *need* to be kept secret.

Problem is, we keep electing lunatics to run the asylum, don't we ?

But even then, they'll come out, cause the petty little bastards will leak those they think will damage "the other guys" and vice versa, typical political malice translating into transparency.

And with a history of that, for folks who know and acknowledge history, a pattern develops, like how every war the US has ever engaged in since the revolution was started on a foundation of blatant, intentional lies - and when the powers that be start pushing for another, folks like me call them on that shit... only to get ignored or mocked, and then it comes out, and folks who don't wanna admit they were wrong come up with all kinds of fancy justifications to avoid admitting they were wrong, that they were duped, that they willfully enabled all the horrors and atrocities any war will involve, because they don't wanna be responsible....

THAT, is what american state secret keeping depends on - which is why it *has to go*, because it's rooted in malice and lies, and the fruit of that vine is bitter and poisons future generations for years to come.

Just like you remove a toy from a child who has repeatedly proven irresponsible or even downright dangerous with its use - so too with government, for in every single case these secrets, keeping them from the public was so harmful it amounted to a wholesale atrocity upon them, because it led to spilling blood and treasure needlessly for the gain of few and the suffering of many, just look at the history...

COINTELPRO, MOCKINGBIRD, NORTHWOODS, MKULTRA, The "crown jewels", the pentagon papers, deep throat, the pike and church committees, it goes on and on and on, and every time the only reason it was ever kept secret is that the american people would not only not approve - but would stand against it wholesale.

You can't run a representative government that way, it becomes a tyranny in all but name, and that is what we have, a thin fiction, a name pasted over the jackboot.

Anything that changes that, is *necessary* to rip from the teeth of the monster the power that rightfully belongs to US, the people, not the damn plutocrats and their nefarious power and enrichment schemes.

I say Julian didn't go far *enough*, since there's stuff he's holding back - probably to cover his own ass, but still, doing this by half-measure is inexcusable, if yer gonna do it, go for broke.

-Frem

I do not serve the Blind God.

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Wednesday, December 22, 2010 3:09 AM

CANTTAKESKY


Quote:

Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
You can't run a representative government that way, it becomes a tyranny in all but name, and that is what we have, a thin fiction, a name pasted over the jackboot.

Amen.

Except, not becoming. It already is.

Can't Take (my gorram) Sky
------
Everything I say is just my opinion, not fact.

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