REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

The rich get richer and the rest get 'let them eat cake'

POSTED BY: 1KIKI
UPDATED: Thursday, January 6, 2011 15:50
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Saturday, December 25, 2010 4:05 AM

KANEMAN


Quote:

Originally posted by SignyM:
Quote:

Hell no, it's not even remotely close.
Not even remotely close to being fair? Or not even remotely close to being fact?

Let me re-phrase the question: ASSUMING THAT IT IS TRUE that the very wealthy and corporations pay less tax by percentage than the middle class, would it be fair? Just asking for your opinion, not for your agreement.





Yes, it would be fair. Corporations(owned by people risking their money) provide wages and taxes. Without the wages corporations pay and the benefits they provide to their employees there would be no middle class. See, I think you are missing an important part here. A corporation's responsibility is a return on investment to the share holders(it is kin to a contract they must strive for profit), who in turn pay capital gains on sales of the stock or dividends received. They are the engine that makes our whole economy run. Sure there are many greedy cEO's that pay themselves millions. However, taking what they pay the employees, money growth they provide to retirement accounts, taxes to local state and federal governments...it is peanuts what MOST management recieve. Take Microsoft. That company adds 100's of billions to the economy in the form of wages and profits...which in turn ARE taxed. Is it a direct tax on the corp? NO. But it has the same effect. Goes to the same coffers.....Only a minute to bang this out pardon the lack of focus....

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Saturday, December 25, 2010 7:44 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Wha'd I tell 'ya? I'm not even going to debate that one, it's so full of holes. Anyone else wanna waste their time trying?

ETA: Well, at least I have to admit he came up with SOME kind of answer, so I'll give him kuddos for avoiding nothing but a stupid snark. You should stay unfocused more often Kane; at least you added something worthwhile to the discussion...it's an improvement.


Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off




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Sunday, December 26, 2010 3:22 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


First, I want to point out that Rappy was too afraid to answer the simple question as to whether it would be fair if corporations and the very wealthy paid less (by percentage) in taxes than the middle class.

RAPPY, your silence speaks volumes about you. So, word of advice: You can run away from this discussion, but you can't run away from yourself. There is a conflict in loyalties which rives your brain in two. I hope you can set it straight.


KANEMAN: I appreciate your direct answer. We're so very far apart, I'm not even sure where to start.

First of all, although you acknowledge that the sole responsibility of corporations is to return a profit to shareholders, you also think corporations "provide" a lot of things: they rain down wages, jobs, taxes, and benefits like manna from the heavens. That if corporations were to disappear, we would all be destitute.

But the two functions (provide profit and provide benefits) can't both be pursued at the same time. The only way to profit shareholders is to reduce everything else. The REAL job of the corporation is to reduce costs (wages, taxes, benefits, materials) as much as possible while selling at the highest possible price, and giving the difference to the shareholders (and the executives who run/ skim the business). Corporations would be happy to run on slave labor. How do you see corporations as "providing" benefits? How do you resolve the inherent conflict between profiting shareholders and benefiting society?

I don't want to get too far into the discussion by making points for you which you don't either agree with or understand. But I think there is one thing you are confusing which I want to address: It seems that you think because money passes through corporate coffers, that the corporation somehow "provides" the money. It doesn't.

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Sunday, December 26, 2010 9:35 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


...and if you wanted to take it even further back, corporations wouldn't exist without workers...nor would the rich.

I don't see them as "providing" a damned thing; I see them as, just as you said, utilizing the labor of others to create as much wealth as possible for a few, while minimizing costs to themselves (don't forget quality of product, safety of both workers and consumers) in as many was as possible...including skirting and breaking the law in some cases.

Anyone see Colbert on "trickle-down" economics?

http://www.colbertnation.com/the-colbert-report-videos/341481/july-28-
2010/the-word---ownership-society


It's not only hysterical, it's so right on it's...hysterical. And it pretty much says it for me; tax cuts for the rich and corporations aren't intended to stimulate the economy, they're to make the rich richer.

And you gotta love the rationalization provided; corporation and rich people should get taxed at a lower percentage because they "give" to the rest of us. So equality and fairness in taxation is only preferable when it can't be rationalized to be otherwise...works for some.


Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off




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Sunday, December 26, 2010 11:37 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

...including skirting and breaking the law in some cases.



You misspelled "most".

This Space For Rent!

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Sunday, December 26, 2010 11:48 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...





Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off




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Sunday, December 26, 2010 1:14 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Kaneman, I left you with a question. Likely you have been busy, so please scroll up a few posts. Thanks.

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Monday, December 27, 2010 3:56 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by SignyM:

ASSUMING THAT IT IS TRUE that the very wealthy and corporations pay less tax by percentage than the middle class, would it be fair? Just asking for your opinion, not for your agreement.



Are you asking the "fairness " of the very wealthy paying a % , and what they have after taxes ? Or are you talking about the % of total tax revenue raised by income taxes which is paid by the top 1 or 5% ?


Because , you KNOW the purpose of raising taxes is to operate the proper function of government, and NOT to 'level the playing field', and make everyone end up w/ more or less the same amount of stuff, right ?

There's no 'conflict' in my view, what so ever.




" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Monday, December 27, 2010 5:29 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


I am talking about the very wealthy and corporations paying less of a percentage of their income than the middle class. As I have said... oh, about four or five times by now.

So, let's say that the average corporation pays about 5% of it gross revenues in taxes, and people in the top 400 pay about 15%, while the middle class person pays about 30%.

Is that fair? Yes, or no? I'm asking again because you STILL haven't answered the question. All I'm looking for is an unequivocal one-word answer, without all the weaseling and obfuscation. And if you keep weaseling, I'll simply assume that you refuse to answer.

BTW- I understand the point you're trying to make. I got it, already.


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Monday, December 27, 2010 5:57 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Well, the those in the top 400 (?) pay far more than 15%, and the rest pay far LESS than 30%, so ...

But it's not fair, because we all pay too much in taxes. Because the gov't is too big, and takes too much of OUR money.

Next question.


" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Monday, December 27, 2010 8:32 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Why can't you just answer straight, instead of quibbling about the premise? Would it be fair for the top 400 AND CORPORATIONS to pay less as a percentage than the middle class? Yes or no? Simple answer, no weaseling please. We can address the premises later.

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Monday, December 27, 2010 8:58 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


There are a few more things to take into account when it comes to who "should" pay more in taxes, There’s share of wealth, which has increased dramatically over time for the top small percentage. Charts aren't coming out all the time, but can be found at http://sociology.ucsc.edu/whorulesamerica/power/wealth.html )

Share of wealth held by the Bottom 99% and Top 1% in the United States, 1922-2007:


To show it in simpler form, the percentage of wealth held by the top 20%:

Net worth and financial wealth distribution in the U.S. in 2007 as of 2007:


So, if the top 20% hold 93% of the wealth (and we can argue forever on how they GOT it), what percentage of taxes should they pay?

Share of capital income earned by top 1% and bottom 80%, 1979-2003:


Or how about CEOs' average pay, production workers' average pay, the S&P 500 Index, corporate profits, and the federal minimum wage, 1990-2005 (all figures adjusted for inflation)


I know your argument: Everyone should be able to keep what they earn. Simplistic at best. My response is that it depends partly on HOW they earn their wealth, and given THAT is patently unfair (since their earnings are by far more a reflection of money begetting money, rather than actual labor), taxes should be proportional to what they actually EARN, especially given their re-investment in the economy is a far lower percentage than that which is claimed.

The fact is that people’s buying power drives the economy. The vast majority of Americans contribute more to the economy than the rich.

Then there’s the oft-overlooked fact that the rich get MORE from the government than the poor:
Quote:

Social security payments: They make up 20% of the budget, are dependent on income---if you've put more into the system, you get higher payments when you retire.

Investments in the nation's infrastructure: Transportation, education, research & development, energy, police subsidies, the courts, etc.---again are more useful the more you have. The interstates and airports benefit interstate commerce and people who can travel, not ghetto dwellers. Energy is used disproportionately by the rich and by industry.

As for public education, the better public schools are the ones attended by the well off. The very well off ship their offspring off to private schools; but it is their companies that benefit from a well-educated public.

The FDIC and the S&L bailout: Oviously benefit investors and large depositors. A neat example: a smooth operator bought a failing S&L for $350 million, then received $2 billion from the government to help resurrect it.

Subsidies: Subsidies to agribusiness ($18 billion a year), to export companies, to maritime shippers, and to various industries--airlines, nuclear power companies, timber companies, mining companies, automakers, drug companies.

Accelerated depreciation: It alone, for instance, is estimated to cost the Treasury $37 billion a year--billions more than the mortgage interest deduction



How about entitlements?
Quote:

In America we actually have far more entitlement programs for the rich than for the poor:

Capital Gains Tax: The capital gains tax benefits the rich far more than the middle class and the poor. Rich people who own tens of millions in stock and other assets like real estate can sell these assets and they only pay 15% on their gain.

Social Security Tax: The top 1% who own 50% of all financial assets and make 25% of all income pay the tax on about 1% of their wages while the middle class and the poor pay the tax on 100%, all their wages

Medicare: Everyone pays the same Medicare premiums, rich and poor. Yet Medicare provided over $100 billion in payments to people who are rich. These people had heart operations, and other operations and the taxpayers paid the bill.

Income tax deductions: For most Americans the deductions they are allowed are few because they don’t qualify for them. On the other hand the rich can deduct much of what they buy.

Infrastructure: If you own a jet airplane you can land it on a public runway at a public taxpayer funded airport and the taxpayer will pay the fees. When one of the billionaires flies into an airport, taxpayers pay for their landing and other services.

Profit which go overseas: The IRS allows over 300,000 rich Americans to avoid paying taxes by keeping their wages and profits in Swiss banks. The IRS estimates that they lose over $100 billion each year in taxes to this scheme. Of course if you are a middle-class worker with wage in the US it is difficult to take advantage of this entitlement

http://hubpages.com/hub/USgovernmentEntitlementsfortheRICH

This is for those who are interested in facts, it’s not intended for those who cling to the concept that “the rich pay a disproportionate amount of taxes; the poor benefit more from the government”. There’s no point in offering facts to them, obviously.


Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off




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Monday, December 27, 2010 9:06 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Would it be fair for the top 400 AND CORPORATIONS to pay less as a percentage than the middle class?


Less of a % of their income tax ?

They don't, so the question is moot.

Now, why won't anyone comment on the figure I posted, on who carries the tax burden in this country ?


" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Monday, December 27, 2010 9:16 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


See? Proven: The top 400 andc orporations DO pay less as a percentage than the middle class. Sig, hon, he'll keep repeating it until he dies; why try to get a straight answer?


Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off




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Monday, December 27, 2010 9:47 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


You can repeat a lie as often as you'd like, Niki, but that does not make it the truth.

Corporations ? Why even bring that into the equation ? It's a red herring, is why. The FACT of the matter is, the " rich " pay far more than their fair share, pay a higher % in taxes than income earned, and if things don't change soon, the top 1% will be paying for everything.


" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Monday, December 27, 2010 9:51 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

Less of a % of their income tax ?
I'm not asking you to accept the truthfulness of the premise, merely to opine on whether it would be fair, if true.

I will be happy to comment on your point once you answer my question. Which, I have to say, you're finding extraordinarily difficult to do. That's why I said you have divided loyalties: It seems that you can't say yes because you realize how it would look to everyone here (or it crosses some old ethics) and you can't say no because it conflicts with your current viewpoint/ interests.


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Monday, December 27, 2010 9:56 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


But Sig: HE WON'T! Surely you don't expect otherwise, do you? I mean really?


Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off




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Monday, December 27, 2010 10:42 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Well, Rappy is so quick to opine on some things, surely he has an opinion on this too.

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Monday, December 27, 2010 12:28 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Sig,

I'm wary of your question, for a couple of reasons.

I don't agree ( no shocker there ) on many , if not most, of your presuppositions.

I'm skeptical that , if I say yay or nay to one of your hypotheticals, you'll toss in some non relevant Warren Buffett example, where he erroneously claims to be taxed at a lower rate than his secretary, even though it's an apples to oranges comparison.

It's not a straight forward, simple question.






" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Monday, December 27, 2010 6:37 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


I understand your wariness of my premise. You make certain premises which, if you asked me to agree or disagree, I would probably have to caveat. That's why I'm trying to be so very specific: So that is IS a simple, hypothetical question. Maybe unrealistically so, but simple enough to answer yes or no.

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Tuesday, December 28, 2010 7:41 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Can you show me where I can find proof that Buffet "he erroneously claims to be taxed at a lower rate than his secretary" please? Or is "erroneous" just your opinion?


Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off




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Tuesday, December 28, 2010 8:08 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Since I really don't expect a meaningful answer from you on that question, I looked it up myself. NOWHERE can I find any indication that Buffett LIED about or was wrong about the percentages he and his secretary pay in taxes.

Can you show me where I can find proof that Buffet "he erroneously claims to be taxed at a lower rate than his secretary" please? Or is "erroneous" just your opinion?

All I can find is the argument:
Quote:

However, what is not analyzed in the statement is the types of income each person is making. Buffett's secretary is paying taxes on income which come to her in a regular paycheck in exchange for being employed. Buffett's income is in the form of gains he earns from buying and selling stock.

The key difference is that a capital gain is not as guaranteed as income from employment. This investment could fall in value or gain nothing, leaving the investor looking for other means of income. Currently, capital gains are taxed at 15%

Buffett's secretary only needs to remain employed to earn her income. Buffett made the false comparison because he is such a good investor that his capital gains and dividend related income is as safe as an average person's income from labor.

http://commonsensecapitalism.blogspot.com/2010/09/why-warren-buffett-i
s-wrong-on-taxes.html


I don’t find that argument valid at all. "only needs to remain employed to earn her income". That's so easy these days? And she chooses to work at a job to survive; he doesn't choose to invest to survive. If she loses her job (through no fault of her own, which so many have these days), she's screwed; if he loses money invested, he can still survive. Only those with extra money can invest, and they choose to do so.

So investing and stocks and stuff is a gamble; so what? Profits earned from it are profits, to me exactly the same as any other form of "earning", but it gets taxed at a lower rate. It talks about the risk and potential loss, but again, that’s the same as a middle-class person “investing” in an automobile only to find it’s a lemon. That’s monetary loss, too.

As to what he invests having been already taxed; that is the money he chooses to invest, so any profit he makes from it is still profit. Once again, just as his “earnings” are taxed (if he even has a job and doesn’t kist live on his investments); after that it makes no difference how he spends it. Investing is spending; so are many other ways of spending...but we’re taxed on what we spend, however we spend it.

So I don’t see the “erroneousness” of Buffett’s argument.


Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off




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Wednesday, December 29, 2010 3:58 PM

CANTTAKESKY


Found a well written article you would probably like.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/sam-harris/a-new-years-resolution-fo_b_8
02480.html


Quote:

Now we are told that we will soon receive a large tax cut for all our troubles. What is the word for the feeling this provokes in me? Imagine being safely seated in lifeboat, while countless others drown, only to learn that another lifeboat has been secured to take your luggage to shore...



Can't Take (my gorram) Sky
------
Everything I say is just my opinion, not fact.

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Thursday, December 30, 2010 8:40 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Boy, CTTS, good quote. For me, too, and I'll definitely read the article!

ETA: Oh, man, GREAT article!
Quote:

Most Americans believe that a person should enjoy the full fruits of his or her labors, however abundant. In this light, taxation tends to be seen as an intrinsic evil. It is worth noting, however, that throughout the 1950's--a decade for which American conservatives pretend to feel a harrowing sense of nostalgia--the marginal tax rate for the wealthy was over 90 percent. In fact, prior to the 1980's it never dipped below 70 percent. Since 1982, however, it has come down by half. In the meantime, the average net worth of the richest 1 percent of Americans has doubled (to $18.5 million), while that of the poorest 40 percent has fallen by 63 percent (to $2,200). Thirty years ago, top U.S. executives made about 50 times the salary of their average employees. In 2007, the average worker would have had to toil for 1,100 years to earn what his CEO brought home between Christmas in Aspen and Christmas on St. Barthes.

We now live in a country in which the bottom 40 percent (120 million people) owns just 0.3 percent of the wealth. Data of this kind make one feel that one is participating in a vast psychological experiment: Just how much inequality can free people endure? Have you seen Ralph Lauren's car collection? Yes, it is beautiful. It also cost hundreds of millions of dollars. "So what?" many people will say. "It's his money. He earned it. He should be able to do whatever he wants with it." In conservative circles, expressing any doubt on this point has long been synonymous with Marxism.

And yet over one million American children are now homeless. People on Medicare are being denied life-saving organ transplants that were routinely covered before the recession. Over one quarter of our nation's bridges are structurally deficient.

It is easy to understand why even the most generous person might be averse to paying taxes: Our legislative process has been hostage to short-term political interests and other perverse incentives for as long as anyone can remember. Consequently, our government wastes an extraordinary amount of money. It also seems uncontroversial to say that whatever can be best accomplished in the private sector should be. Our tax code must also be reformed--and it might even be true that the income tax should be lowered on everyone, provided we find a better source of revenue to pay our bills. But I can't imagine that anyone seriously believes that the current level of wealth inequality in the United States is good and worth maintaining, or that our government's first priority should be to spare a privileged person like myself the slightest hardship as this once great nation falls into ruin.

And the ruination of the United States really does seem possible. It has been widely reported, for instance, that students in Shanghai far surpass our own in science, reading, and math. In fact, when compared to other countries, American students are now disconcertingly average (slightly below in math), where the average includes utopias like Kyrgyzstan, Azerbaijan, Albania, Kazakhstan, and Indonesia. President Obama was right to recognize this as a "Sputnik moment." But it is worse than that. This story was immediately followed by a report about giddy Creationists in the state of Kentucky being offered $40 million in tax subsidies to produce a full-scale model of Noah's ark. More horrible still, this ludicrous use of public money is probably a wise investment, given that such a monument to scientific ignorance will be guaranteed to attract an ovine influx of Christian tourists from neighboring states. Seeing facts of this kind, juxtaposed without irony or remedy at this dire moment in history, it is hard not to feel that one is witnessing America's irreversible decline. Needless to say, most Americans have no choice but to send their children to terrible schools--where they will learn the lesser part of nothing and emerge already beggared by a national debt now on course to reach $20 trillion. And yet Republicans in every state can successfully campaign on a promise to spend less on luxuries like education, while delivering tax cuts to people who, if asked to guess their own net worth, could not come within $10 million of the correct figure if their lives depended on it.

American opposition to the "redistribution of wealth" has achieved the luster of a religious creed. And, as with all religions, one finds the faithful witlessly espousing doctrines that harm almost everyone, including their own children. For instance, while most Americans have no chance of earning or inheriting significant wealth, 68 percent want the estate tax eliminated (and 31 percent consider it to be the "worst" and "least fair" tax levied by the federal government). Most believe that limiting this tax, which affects only 0.2 percent of the population, should be the top priority of the current Congress.

The truth, however, is that everyone must favor the "redistribution of wealth" at some point. This relates directly to the issue of education: as the necessity of doing boring and dangerous work disappears--whether because we have built better machines and infrastructure, or shipped our least desirable jobs overseas--people need to be better educated so that they can apply themselves to more interesting work. Who will pay for this? There is only one group of people who can pay for anything at this point: the wealthy.

To make matters more difficult, Americans have made a religious fetish of something called "self-reliance." Most seem to think that while a person may not be responsible for the opportunities he gets in life, each is entirely responsible for what he makes of these opportunities. This is, without question, a false view of the human condition. Consider the biography of any "self-made" American, from Benjamin Franklin on down, and you will find that his success was entirely dependent on background conditions that he did not make, and of which he was a mere beneficiary. There is not a person on earth who chose his genome, or the country of his birth, or the political and economic conditions that prevailed at moments crucial to his progress. Consequently, no one is responsible for his intelligence, range of talents, or ability to do productive work. If you have struggled to make the most of what Nature gave you, you must still admit that Nature also gave you the ability and inclination to struggle. How much credit do I deserve for not having Down syndrome or any other disorder that would make my current work impossible? None whatsoever. And yet devotees of self-reliance rail against those who would receive entitlements of various sorts--health care, education, etc.--while feeling unselfconsciously entitled to their relative good fortune. Yes, we must encourage people to work to the best of their abilities and discourage free riders wherever we can--but it seems only decent at this moment to admit how much luck is required to succeed at anything in this life. Those who have been especially lucky--the smart, well-connected, and rich--should count their blessings, and then share some of these blessings with the rest of society.

The wealthiest Americans often live as though they and their children had nothing to gain from investments in education, infrastructure, clean-energy, and scientific research. For instance, the billionaire Steve Ballmer, CEO of Microsoft, recently helped kill a proposition that would have created an income tax for the richest 1 percent in Washington (one of seven states that has no personal income tax). All of these funds would have gone to improve his state's failing schools. What kind of society does Ballmer want to live in--one that is teeming with poor, uneducated people? Who does he expect to buy his products? Where will he find his next batch of software engineers? Perhaps Ballmer is simply worried that the government will spend his money badly--after all, we currently spend more than almost every other country on education, with abysmal results. Well, then he should say so--and rather than devote hundreds of thousands of dollars to stoking anti-tax paranoia in his state, he should direct some of his vast wealth toward improving education, like his colleague Bill Gates has begun to do.

Gawd. So right on, in my opinion, and makes exactly the arguments some of us here have tried to get through, totally unsuccessfully. There is so much more good stuff in there, including good suggestions on what the recent Gates and Buffet idea for billionaires to "give back" could do with that money, it makes me sigh sadly that more can't see these realities.

I have no doubts snarks aplenty will respond to this, but to me it is the sane view. Thank you! It's always good to hear some sanity expressed rather than so much of the "talking points" and partisan idiocy we usually hear.


Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off




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Saturday, January 1, 2011 5:54 AM

BIGDAMNNOBODY


Quote:

Originally posted by SignyM:
Would it be fair for the top 400 AND CORPORATIONS to pay less as a percentage than the middle class? Yes or no? Simple answer, no weaseling please. We can address the premises later.


Is it fair that the lower end earners are taxed less of a percentage, if at all, than the middle class?

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Saturday, January 1, 2011 6:36 AM

DREAMTROVE


i know my comments in a thread that starts this way are bound to be taken with a grain of salt as i have frequently said.i.would vastly prefer a return the hapsburg empire.over democracy, and i the Let them eat cake would likely be my campaign slogan

that said. if the whiners are so convinced that corporations have it so much better, just fucking incoporate already.

all it takes is two humans and about $200. Im sure everyone on this board has had larger human and dollar investments in road trips to conventions, bands.protests, etc.

also, ive heard a lot of whining about the tax cuts. my first thoughts are

1) are you stoned? oh wait, dont answer that
2) since weve already established that 90% of fed tax goes to mil or paramil. then if you want to zee this increased see point one above
3) why is a reduction on long term capital gains and dividends a BAD thing?

after you incorporate, make sure your company pays a dividend. in fact, skip the salary. then dodge your corporate income tax with all these corporate loopholes you keep talking about.

seriously. also, what do people have against India and China? imho, this sort of stuff just looks like racism. As you ponder whether your going to have paneer naan and a mango lassi or spring rolls with rice and a.bowl of egg drop soup, maybe you should ask yourself whether you really want to be part of the hate, or whether perhaps you should just outsource, offshore and be done with it.

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Saturday, January 1, 2011 6:58 AM

CANTTAKESKY


Quote:

Originally posted by dreamtrove:
2) since weve already established that 90% of fed tax goes to mil or paramil. then if you want to zee this increased see point one above]

That's a good point. We assume that more taxes would go to buy more lifeboats for people, but that's not reality, is it?

Can't Take (my gorram) Sky
------
Everything I say is just my opinion, not fact.

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Saturday, January 1, 2011 12:03 PM

BIGDAMNNOBODY


Still waiting for a response to my question Signy. Not trying to weasle out of an answer I hope.

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Saturday, January 1, 2011 12:58 PM

MAGONSDAUGHTER


Great article, a lot of my views expressed in it, particularly

Quote:

To make matters more difficult, Americans have made a religious fetish of something called "self-reliance." Most seem to think that while a person may not be responsible for the opportunities he gets in life, each is entirely responsible for what he makes of these opportunities. This is, without question, a false view of the human condition. Consider the biography of any "self-made" American, from Benjamin Franklin on down, and you will find that his success was entirely dependent on background conditions that he did not make, and of which he was a mere beneficiary. There is not a person on earth who chose his genome, or the country of his birth, or the political and economic conditions that prevailed at moments crucial to his progress. Consequently, no one is responsible for his intelligence, range of talents, or ability to do productive work. If you have struggled to make the most of what Nature gave you, you must still admit that Nature also gave you the ability and inclination to struggle. How much credit do I deserve for not having Down syndrome or any other disorder that would make my current work impossible? None whatsoever. And yet devotees of self-reliance rail against those who would receive entitlements of various sorts--health care, education, etc.--while feeling unselfconsciously entitled to their relative good fortune. Yes, we must encourage people to work to the best of their abilities and discourage free riders wherever we can--but it seems only decent at this moment to admit how much luck is required to succeed at anything in this life. Those who have been especially lucky--the smart, well-connected, and rich--should count their blessings, and then share some of these blessings with the rest of society.


How much luck did it take for me to be born at all, let alone born into a wealthy country, free of conflict, or history of significant conflict come to that, into a fairly sane family, without any significant medical disorders or disabilities... How can I say I am self made when I already started 98% ahead of most of the human race.

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Saturday, January 1, 2011 4:24 PM

DREAMTROVE


Mobility is an illusion. like democracy.

while i disagree that being born into a country like the USA is an advantage over being born in China, and i would place that 98% as very high unless youre very wealthy (id say that being born poor in america is worse than being born poor in a poor nation) i agree with the principle.

id say maybe 20% of the population is born unlucy. particularly those born into high disease areas,or born with major disabilities, but i dont think these are the obstackes to mobility

mobility is a flawed theory because a simple study of the self made shows that they had no end of powerful personal connections, and most importantly, did not have to work for a living and so had unlimited free time.

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Saturday, January 1, 2011 4:24 PM

DREAMTROVE


Double post

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Saturday, January 1, 2011 4:39 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


BigDamn.

Yes.

Next question?


Quote:

mobility is a flawed theory because a simple study of the self made shows that they had no end of powerful personal connections, and most importantly, did not have to work for a living and so had unlimited free time.
Oh thank god. An insightful comment.

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Saturday, January 1, 2011 6:40 PM

BIGDAMNNOBODY


Quote:

Originally posted by SignyM:
BigDamn.

Yes.

Next question?


Why is that?




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Saturday, January 1, 2011 10:43 PM

MAGONSDAUGHTER


Quote:

Originally posted by dreamtrove:
Mobility is an illusion. like democracy.

while i disagree that being born into a country like the USA is an advantage over being born in China, and i would place that 98% as very high unless youre very wealthy (id say that being born poor in america is worse than being born poor in a poor nation) i agree with the principle.

id say maybe 20% of the population is born unlucy. particularly those born into high disease areas,or born with major disabilities, but i dont think these are the obstackes to mobility

mobility is a flawed theory because a simple study of the self made shows that they had no end of powerful personal connections, and most importantly, did not have to work for a living and so had unlimited free time.



Mobility does happen, but it needs certain conditions to take place. Most notable periods of social mobility have taken place after catastrophes that have had a significant impact on the population, such as the Great Plagues of Europe and the World Wars. Opening up of 'new' lands, and mineral booms are other conditions that contribute to mobility. So I'd say that mobility happens, it just doesn't happen automatically. The wealthy tend to dig themselves in and protect their wealth making abilities until something catastrophic comes to topple them, be it man made or natural, or their pathetic dilitante offspring fritter it away.

Re the 98%, I guess I was referring to my own situation in my country, Australia, where I think it sounds preferable to be poor, if you have to be. At least we have a half way decent welfare system and medical care, pensions for the elderly and so on. And a fair degree of nice weather which helps.

So as a white, tertiary educated, healthy, middle class member of a prosperous, peaceful country, I count my blessings.

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Sunday, January 2, 2011 2:22 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


To add a point on mobility: There is a greater social mobility in the supposedly "socialist" EU than in the USA. Apparently, free education and lack of crippling health care debt actually fosters individual success and hard work.

Gee, whoda thunk????


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Sunday, January 2, 2011 2:42 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


BigDamn: Because that is MY definition of fair. That is what I was trying to get Rappy to man up to: What does he think is "fair"? But being the weasely little coward that he is, he can't even be honest with us and take responsibility for his own POV. Typical.

You didn't ask me to elucidate, but I will:

What is the point of society? Why do we live together in such large groups, and cooperate over such long distances and time? Why do we get up at stupid o'clock in the morning, divide our labor, and drive on one side of the road, pay interest, and (in general) invest our sweat and labor into a system? Why do we believe all of these conventions, like fiat money and interest rates, unless it is to make life better for us? When I see people arguing for a system than enslaves and impoverishes the vast majority, I have to wonder how bright they really are. Because THEY are, most likely, part of that vast majority, and they - unwittingly or otherwise- are willing to slit their own wrists for someone else's benefit, and they are encouraging me to do the same.

Now, I personally don't think "welfare" is the best way to organize society. To be TRULY fair, there should be a job at a livable wage for everyone who wants to work, handouts (yes, handouts) for those who can't... such as our elderly, the very young, and the severely disabled... and nothing for people who are simply damn lazy. But because corporations have a vested interest in unemployment and low wages, as long as corporations are in charge of employment and wages we will have to live with things like unemployment insurance.

There's another reason to shuffle money downwards: It's economically necessary. Trickle-down has brought us to the point of economic collapse, just as it did in 1893 and 1929. I mean, how many times do we have to repeat that lesson? Are we collectively brain-dead? We've been down that small-government-business-is-king road several times already, and it never worked well for us.

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Sunday, January 2, 2011 3:48 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Oh, and BTW- if you think I'm being intolerant or unfair, or pulling the "class warfare" card for no reason, you can change my mind by simply doing this: Show me how capitalists are on my side. Show me how it is in my interest to support the system. Not in some theoretical future where things could be different, but right now.

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Sunday, January 2, 2011 8:44 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Quote:

mobility is a flawed theory because a simple study of the self made shows that they had no end of powerful personal connections, and most importantly, did not have to work for a living and so had unlimited free time.
Excellent point, and true as far as I’m concerned. But I’d disagree with your 20% being born “unlcky”. I think the percentage is far higher.

Other than that, Sig and Magons have covered all the points I would have, and far better. I agree with them. Plus Sig brought up another good point, as to the point of a “society”. While there are caveats and exclusions, I think it’s a very good point.



Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off




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Sunday, January 2, 2011 10:03 AM

DREAMTROVE


qymagon,

interesting point on mobility. that will require some thoght


sig

you should abandon this dichotomy. there are many systems in theworld for govt and economy, and will be many more.

socialism will always fail to get mainstream support, not because it is a terrible system. many terrible systems get support. it will fail because socialists have killed more than a quarter billion people. for me, on both sides of my family. statistically, this will be true for.much if not most of the planet.

at some point try asking a russian, eastern european or chinese person what they think. seems no one who has lived under socialism is too fond, only some elitists in the academic west who seem to like the idea of a ruling elite, as long as they are in it.

see, capitalism isnt all that different. its just a different ruling elite. i dont see the two as opposites, bit rather as two sides of the same coin, sort of like democrats and republicans.

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Sunday, January 2, 2011 10:34 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


DT: Well, try telling that to all of western Europe, they seem rather happy with their system.

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Sunday, January 2, 2011 10:46 AM

CANTTAKESKY


Quote:

Originally posted by SignyM:
Why do we live together in such large groups...

I think living in such large groups is a mistake. I don't think it ever ends well.



Can't Take (my gorram) Sky
------
Everything I say is just my opinion, not fact.

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Sunday, January 2, 2011 12:18 PM

MAGONSDAUGHTER


Quote:

Originally posted by dreamtrove:
qymagon,

interesting point on mobility. that will require some thoght


sig

you should abandon this dichotomy. there are many systems in theworld for govt and economy, and will be many more.

socialism will always fail to get mainstream support, not because it is a terrible system. many terrible systems get support. it will fail because socialists have killed more than a quarter billion people. for me, on both sides of my family. statistically, this will be true for.much if not most of the planet.

at some point try asking a russian, eastern european or chinese person what they think. seems no one who has lived under socialism is too fond, only some elitists in the academic west who seem to like the idea of a ruling elite, as long as they are in it.


see I think you constantly equate socialism with tyrannical forms of government, of which there were, but socialism does not automatically equal tyranny any more than capitalism does. Tyranny is possible in both systems, but is not automatic in either.

Me, I favour and imbetweeny system, which will also be inherently flawed and kind of schizophrenic in nature. Capitalism with regulation, or socialism with free market qualities. If someone comes up with something better, I'd be open to that if I thought it would have a hope in hell of working. Sorry to all you anarchists, I don't see your system being that, even though I can see the appeal.

Years ago, this country was much more socialist. We had free tertiary education, and government owned all utilities and transport systems and a bank. My memories of it was that it was a much more egalitarian society and probably less tyrannical than the system we have now. Now the utilities ar privately owned by offshore companies, and we get charged a kings ransom for electricity and gas. Public transport is still as frakked up as ever. There is more money around, we're more prosperous, but the divide is greater. The gods of free market thinking won, but I'm not altogether sure it was a good thing.

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Sunday, January 2, 2011 1:35 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


CTA: Do you mean live in large groups, or have a large population?

Taking a lesson from my economic geography classes lo these many years ago... There is a certain level of technology which can only be supported by large populations, and in turn only large populations can create such division of labor. For example neurological immunology. Assuming that only 0.05% of a population ever needs such services, you would need a population of at least 5,000,000 to keep one specialist busy (seeing roughly 10 patients a day each working day of the year). Once you have a large population accumulated, the difficulties of transportation make living closer together a necessity.

Also, curiously, city people use less energy (carbon) than country people.

But I agree with you in one sense: Large concentrations of people depend on advanced technology to survive. Food, water, trash, sewage, power etc. all need to be transported over fairly long distances. Should any of these systems break down, chaos would result. So all large cities SHOULD have contingency plans which would allow people to survive over a period of time, say ten days.

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Sunday, January 2, 2011 1:36 PM

DREAMTROVE


magon







sorry for the extra lines of blankness.i can see what im typing otherwise.

the system of govt was called socialism. siggie is under the illusion.that w. europe is socialist, i spend a lot of time there, and locals disagree, they do not call it socialism. they have social programs, sure, but actually fewer than we do in the US, and they spend less money on them.

let me tryto clear up some confusion:

the brand name socialism is dead. this is because it has been.used by most of the worst regimes in history.

sure. some of.the ideas in that system have merit, but when they resurface in a functioning govt. it will be called something else.

i half suspect that when the globalists are done they will have also killed capitalism. personally. i would like a system that contained neither.

capitalism, as.ford said. should have died a natural death with the industrial revolution. maybe the information revolution will do the job.

my current pet peave with socialism is the bolivarian socialists with their plan to destroy whats left of the amazon. half of all life on earth lives.in the amazon.

the expectation is also fairly widely accepted that 30 million people will die in the process. thats five holocausts.


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Sunday, January 2, 2011 2:12 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


DT, I use the word "socialist" because that is the common American epithet for western European economies, and by the same verbal-inflationary process, "communist" was applied to economies that were actually socialist (in the rigorous sense of the word).

We don't actually have a commonly-recognized word for western European-style economies, although sometimes the word "mixed" is used.

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Sunday, January 2, 2011 3:40 PM

TWO

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly


Quote:

Originally posted by 1kiki:
http://www.businessweek.com/investor/content/dec2010/pi20101215_516004
.htm

It's a Great Time to Be Rich
If the tax cuts become law, the next two years will be the best in living memory for many wealthy Americans to shield their income and fortunes

Under legislation approved by the U.S. Senate on Wednesday, Dec. 15, and now moving on to the House, savvy wealthy Americans would be able to capitalize on an environment in which their TAX RATES IN INCOME AND INVESTMENTS REMAIN AT HISTORIC LOWS. (emphasis mine) Also, new rules would make it possible to pass on fortunes to heirs with less fuss and lower taxes than all but a brief period of the past 80 years.

"The climate we'll have after this legislation is extremely favorable for wealthy families," says Jeffrey Cooper, a professor at Quinnipiac University School of Law and a former estate planner who has studied the history of U.S. tax law.

Consider:
When budget surpluses were projected 10 years ago, this was described by Republicans as a policy problem to be solved by tax cuts.
When Barack Obama proposed some deficit-increasing tax cuts, Republicans insisted that they would go along if and only if he added additional deficit increasing tax cuts.
Republicans are planning to replace deficit-mitigating PAYGO rules with deficit increasing CUTGO rules.

Note that this is not a new development. There was a major battle within the Republican Party in the 1970s between a moderate faction associated with Dwight Eisenhower and Gerald Ford and a conservative faction associated with Ronald Reagan. One key issue at that time was whether the focus should be on deficits or on low tax rates for rich people. And the conservatives won the battle.

Take the lessons of history seriously. Republicans are deeply interested in lower tax rates on high-income individuals. There may or may not be other things they care about on some level, but the party’s level of concern about all other issues pales in comparison to its level of concern about lowering tax rates on high-income individuals.

The Joss Whedon script for "Serenity", where Wash lives, is
Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/two

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Sunday, January 2, 2011 4:09 PM

MAGONSDAUGHTER


DT, I think you were the person who labeled Signy's description of what might work as 'socialism.

You are right that neither my country nor western europe describes themselves as socialist, that is the label that is continuously applied by Americans, who also label any government funded anything as 'socialist' ie what you would describe as 'socialised health care' we would describe as public health.

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Sunday, January 2, 2011 4:11 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


TWO: Interesting. I've sensed this for many years, but you say this as if this is common knowledge. Do you have any references?

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Sunday, January 2, 2011 5:11 PM

TWO

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly


Quote:

Originally posted by SignyM:
TWO: Interesting. I've sensed this for many years, but you say this as if this is common knowledge. Do you have any references?

I'm lazy. I'll pick CUTGO as an example of Republican perfidy and you find references about CUTGO with google. Choose to believe the ones that you think are unbiased and trustworthy:
Republicans proposed that new spending be offset with spending cuts. Lovely. The new rules will retain the ability to pass tax cuts with no spending offsets whatsoever. That decision reflects the core Republican belief that tax revenues do not need to bear any relationship to expenditures. Watch the news for actual details of the final CUTGO rules once the new House of Representatives is sworn-in.

The Joss Whedon script for "Serenity", where Wash lives, is
Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/two

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Sunday, January 2, 2011 7:20 PM

DREAMTROVE


magon

no

sig used the word socialism.

i use socialism to describe socialism, a systm of govt, nothing.more.

when someone advocates socialism, i urge not doing so because it is neither popular nor a good idea, much in the way when someone on the forum recommends we nuke israel i recommend that we dont.

I dont think Obama is a socialist at all, rather, i think he is just a more intelligent version of George W Bush. Someone else I happento oppose.

Also, the US has had a public health system for years. ive always thought the term "socialized medicine" was dreamt up by the AMA to prevent caps on costs by psychologically linking them to communism.

if your hospitals and medical supplies.were.strictly provided by the govt as was done in the USSR, id call that socialist. Looked at that way, you could say we have a socialist system of K-12 education, which I guess we do, and I guess Im consistent in opposing it.


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