REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

The folly of our boy King

POSTED BY: AURAPTOR
UPDATED: Monday, November 22, 2010 08:54
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Friday, November 19, 2010 4:04 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


“I think this notion that somehow we have to be fearful, that these terrorists are – possess some special powers that prevent us from presenting evidence against them, locking them up and, you know, exacting swift justice, I think that has been a fundamental mistake” - President Obama
Nov 18, 2009

Quote:


Ahmed Khalfan Ghailani was acquitted of 284 other counts in the case, including counts of murder and the attempted use of weapons of mass destruction.

Ghailani, 36, had been charged with 285 criminal counts for participating in a conspiracy to commit two deadly bombing attacks on the U.S. embassies in Tanzania and Kenya in 1998, in which 224 people died. The trial was considered a major test of the Obama administration’s preference for trying terrorists in civilian court.

In its fifth day of deliberations, a jury of six women and six men found Ghailani guilty of a single count of conspiracy to destroy buildings and U.S. property by use of an explosive, Dow Jones Newswires reported. The count he was convicted on carries a mandatory minimum of 20 years in prison and up to life. Sentencing is set for January.






" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Friday, November 19, 2010 4:10 AM

BLUEHANDEDMENACE


Ok, so.....

the guy is convicted, going to spend his life in prison....and the problem is....what exactly??

I'm not entirely sure what your complaint is at the moment.

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Friday, November 19, 2010 4:18 AM

BLUEHANDEDMENACE


I would like someone on the right to answer this simple question...

Why do you all have so little faith in our court system that you are afraid to let the former guantanimo (not sure i spelled that right) detainees have fair trials?? Do you actually think they might be aqcuitted? Or paroled??


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Friday, November 19, 2010 4:40 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by BlueHandedMenace:
Ok, so.....

the guy is convicted, going to spend his life in prison....and the problem is....what exactly??

I'm not entirely sure what your complaint is at the moment.



He was directly instrumental in the deaths of 224 innocent people.

You're fine w/ that ? A sentence of spending some time in jail is all he should get ?


Huh.


" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Friday, November 19, 2010 4:42 AM

BLUEHANDEDMENACE


Ummm, what in my post leads you to believe I am condoning his crimes....please point it out to me.

He is going to spend his life in prison...thats what should happen to someone like this

and of course, since turnabout is fair play...why won't you answer my simple question Rap?

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Friday, November 19, 2010 4:44 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by BlueHandedMenace:
Ummm, what in my post leads you to believe I am condoning his crimes....please point it out to me.

He is going to spend his life in prison...thats what should happen to someone like this

and of course, since turnabout is fair play...why won't you answer my simple question Rap?



20 years for his part in the massacre. For the 1 count of conspiracy. He should have been put to death.

I'm not playing this game of " show me where I condone his crimes ". This travesty of injustice is a direct cause of Obama and his justice dept.

Deal w/ that issue, first.


" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Friday, November 19, 2010 4:46 AM

BLUEHANDEDMENACE


You think this guy is going to get paroled?? really?

so little faith in your own judicial system...why??

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Friday, November 19, 2010 4:47 AM

BLUEHANDEDMENACE


So you can accuse me of being ok with this guy's crimes...but I cant call you out for completely distorting my post??

thats a quality double standard

its called debate, you have to justify what you spew.

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Friday, November 19, 2010 4:50 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


You're playing a silly game that's irrelevant to the point. I refuse to get sucked into the mindless minutia.

Either you're fine w/ the 284 counts being tossed out, or you're not.

In WW2, we shot German spies who PLANNED to do very much the same thing this guy did. But it wasn't the civilian courts who tried them.


" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Friday, November 19, 2010 4:51 AM

BLUEHANDEDMENACE


I dont give a rats ass about what counts he is convicted of and acquitted for. I want him in jail for the rest of his life, and thats exactly what has happenned here.

You act like Obama let the guy go free

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Friday, November 19, 2010 4:53 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by BlueHandedMenace:
I dont give a rats ass about what counts he is convicted of and acquitted for. I want him in jail for the rest of his life, and thats exactly what has happenned here.

You act like Obama let the guy go free




1. Debate is a pointless waste of time.

2. You're not intelligent enough to waste my time even having this discussion if you can't comprehend the significance of this debacle.


" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Friday, November 19, 2010 4:55 AM

BLUEHANDEDMENACE


Wow. So debate is irrelevant, but I'M the one not smart enuf for it...

Do you actually look at what u type and wonder if it makes any sense at all

I have completely refuted every point you make, and you have not even responded to mine...and I'm the dumb one

Wow, and a half.

Thank you for letting me know not to bother considering your posts as worthwhile in the future

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Friday, November 19, 2010 4:56 AM

BLUEHANDEDMENACE


AND ONCE AGAIN A RIGHT WING CLOWN RESORTS TO NAME CALLING TO AVOID THE FACT THAT HE IS COMPLETELY OFF BASE

SURPRISE SURPRISE

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Friday, November 19, 2010 5:00 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Hello,

It's nice to see that when we don't have evidence that a crime has been committed, we don't find people guilty of that crime.

It's nice to see that when we do have evidence that a crime has been committed, then we find people guilty of that crime.

It's nice to see people who are accused of a crime get a trial, rather than indefinite detainment without trial.

It's nice that when we find someone a danger to society, then we remove them from society.

It's nice that the Justice System is not simply a fancy name for the Revenge System.

--Anthony

Assured by friends that the signal-to-noise ratio has improved on this forum, I have disabled web filtering.

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Friday, November 19, 2010 5:09 AM

BLUEHANDEDMENACE


Exactly Anthony. All strong points.

Its remarkable how different the worldview has become.

Rap sees: OMG they said he didnt do some of the crimes we said he did! its horrible!

We see: a fair trial, with jury deliberations, in which evidence was presented, considered, and then decided upon. Scumbag in prison on life sentence, justice done.

Where did u go Rappy? run away again when confronted with reasoned argument, since you are incapable of same???

Dont try and match wits with me, boy. Ill crush you.

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Friday, November 19, 2010 5:21 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


"Dont try and match wits with me, boy. Ill crush you."

Hello,

Mr. Raptor's worldview and his method of communicating are often lamentable to me.

I have never admired them enough to emulate them.

--Anthony

Assured by friends that the signal-to-noise ratio has improved on this forum, I have disabled web filtering.

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Friday, November 19, 2010 5:22 AM

BLUEHANDEDMENACE


While i respect that viewpoint...I'm firmly a taste of your own medicine guy

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Friday, November 19, 2010 5:23 AM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up


Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:
Either you're fine w/ the 284 counts being tossed out, or you're not.



Depends. Could be that the evidence presented didn't support conviction on most charges. Could be that the prosecutors didn't do a good job. Could be that the defense did a really good job. Could be that the jury figured life in solitary ('cause they'll never put this guy in the general population) would be worse punishment for an Islamic fundie than martyrdom by execution.

I gotta say I'm finer with a trial and conviction, even on just one count, than executing folk without due process.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Friday, November 19, 2010 5:24 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Debate is not discussion.

Debate, as Niska says, is gossip. Is people talking.

Of course, it's an elevated art form, and one which CAN be admired, for its own sake. But I detest the tedious endeavor that IS 'debate'. It solves nothing. It merely displays one person's ability to B.S. better than the next. It pits folks against each other, by its very nature. Where as discussion, is a true meeting of the minds. Actual transference of information and ideas.

And I made a mistake in calling you unintelligent before.

I misspoke. There is no evidence, that I can detect, of your lack of intellect.

You're just ignorant. Big difference. My mistake.





" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Friday, November 19, 2010 5:25 AM

BLUEHANDEDMENACE


Ha! thats funny.

I still havent seen one shred of a reason as to why this is a negative story.

Since I am so ignorant, please enlighten me

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Friday, November 19, 2010 5:31 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Hello,

I find myself in agreement.

Debating with Mr. Raptor has never solved anything. It always seems to result in an ever escalating mountain of bovine excrement. It is, by its very nature, an exercise in antagonism. There is no discussion, no meeting of the minds, no actual transference of information and ideas.

BlueHandedMenace,

I have a long way to go before I become the man I want to be. I really do try, but inevitably I fall short from time to time.

--Anthony


Assured by friends that the signal-to-noise ratio has improved on this forum, I have disabled web filtering.

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Friday, November 19, 2010 5:36 AM

BLUEHANDEDMENACE


I disagree...if one can manage not to descend to their level, debate with the less evolved among us serves to expose their bullshit to the light of day.

Rappy won't actually consider my points, because he is afraid that he will not be able to refute them.

If he tried, we would end up very amused.

What can I say, I enjoy wallowing in the muck every now and then...maybe not an admirable trait, but ehh....

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Friday, November 19, 2010 5:39 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by Geezer:
Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:
Either you're fine w/ the 284 counts being tossed out, or you're not.



Depends. Could be that the evidence presented didn't support conviction on most charges. Could be that the prosecutors didn't do a good job. Could be that the defense did a really good job. Could be that the jury figured life in solitary ('cause they'll never put this guy in the general population) would be worse punishment for an Islamic fundie than martyrdom by execution.

I gotta say I'm finer with a trial and conviction, even on just one count, than executing folk without due process.

"Keep the Shiny side up"



Valid points, but this was suppose to be the 'test' case , for Obama and the DOJ for trying these sorts of cases in civilian courts.

By all measure, it failed, big time.

Even the MSM is seeing this for its colossal failure.

From CNN....


Quote:

CHETRY: Meantime, he was the first Guantanamo detainee to be tried in civilian court and this morning critics of the Obama administration say he should be the last. A federal jury in New York fining Ahmed Ghailani not guilty on 284 terror-related charges including murder. He was only convicted on a single count of conspiracy to damage or destroy U.S. property for his role in the deadly 1998 U.S. embassy bombings in Kenya and Tanzania.

ROBERTS: The Justice Department, of course, tried to put a positive spin on that lone conviction saying they're pleased Ghailani now faces a minimum of 20 years in prison and a potential life sentence.

Our Deb Feyerick is with us this morning. And it was a near disaster for the White House.


DEBORAH FEYERICK, CNN CORRESPONDENT:

It was a near disaster. This was as close of a close call as you can possibly get. And as a matter of fact, being in the courtroom, sitting in the courtroom, there was an audible gasp as the verdict was read.



http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/1011/18/ltm.01.html


" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Friday, November 19, 2010 5:42 AM

BLUEHANDEDMENACE


OK, that CNN quote is a piece on them commenting on detractors being unhappy with results.....well duh, Obama gets flak from the right for pushing programs that Bush supported, why wouldn't they critiscize this.

THE GUY GOT LIFE IN PRISON!!!

is it that we aren't killing him? is that why you are upset?

All this proves is that the evidence collected to detain these people was shoddy, not that they will go free.

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Friday, November 19, 2010 5:42 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Rappy won't actually consider my points, because he is afraid that he will not be able to refute them.

If he tried, we would end up very amused.



I don't have to refute anything. This case refutes itself.

You're arrogance and smug attitude on all of this, trying to make it some sort of personal joust w/ me and me alone, is what's amusing.

( and he's not been sentenced yet. So I don't know why you're stating it as a fact )

" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Friday, November 19, 2010 5:44 AM

BLUEHANDEDMENACE


So basically your argument is that you have no argument. Nice

You are the one who came after me with the name calling, you piss me off, i go after you, thats kinda how it works.

Unlike u, I don't fear a discussion of opinions, I guess I was naive to think that we might actually have meaningful communication when I responded to your original post.

Thank you for teaching me otherwise

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Friday, November 19, 2010 5:44 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


"By all measure..."

Hello,

What is the measure? Execute as many of these individuals as possible?

Or is the measure determining if we have valid evidence suitable for prosecution?

Is the measure Justice, or is it Revenge?

It may be that 90% of these people will go free, and 99% of their charges will be dismissed.

If that is a failure, then it is a failure of the people who collected and presented evidence. A failure of those who seized these accused individuals and kept them despite having an inadequate case.

We should be ashamed of such failure, but not for the reasons you might imagine.

--Anthony

Assured by friends that the signal-to-noise ratio has improved on this forum, I have disabled web filtering.

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Friday, November 19, 2010 5:45 AM

BLUEHANDEDMENACE


AND OF COURSE, you still havent answered my simple question? why are you so afraid to answer a question Rap?

u

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Friday, November 19, 2010 5:47 AM

BLUEHANDEDMENACE


excuse me, you are correct Rap, I misread the sentencing guideline as the sentence, my mistake.

So when he gets a life sentence...are you going to post about how justice was done, and thank you Mr Obama for removing this person from society permanently?


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Friday, November 19, 2010 5:47 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by BlueHandedMenace:
So basically your argument is that you have no argument. Nice

You are the one who came after me with the name calling, you piss me off, i go after you, thats kinda how it works.

Unlike u, I don't fear a discussion of opinions, I guess I was naive to think that we might actually have meaningful communication when I responded to your original post.

Thank you for teaching me otherwise



Might want to rethink my original comment per your intelligence, after all.




" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Friday, November 19, 2010 5:52 AM

BLUEHANDEDMENACE


You go ahead, its pretty clear looking at this thread which of us has the intelligence here, and Im sure you think it is you. You are quite welcome to that opinion.

Enjoy your delusions, I've had my fun here, and now I know better than to try and use reason against u. You are clearly immune to it, since you cant recognize it.

Since you havent once made a single comment that has any validity, I'm finished with this thread...I'ma go back to doing a little bit of work b4 lunch now.

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Friday, November 19, 2010 5:58 AM

CANTTAKESKY


Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:
He was directly instrumental in the deaths of 224 innocent people.

In acquitting him of 284 counts in this case, the jury disagreed.

Could you please clarify, how is that Obama's fault?


----
Arrogant and proud of it.

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Friday, November 19, 2010 6:01 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Hello,

Sky, if Obama had never allowed these people a fair trial, then they never would have been judged fairly.

Surely you can see the cause and effect, here, and the alternative that is desired.

--Anthony

Assured by friends that the signal-to-noise ratio has improved on this forum, I have disabled web filtering.

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Friday, November 19, 2010 6:38 AM

HKCAVALIER


Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:
Debate, as Niska says, is gossip. Is people talking.

Quoting a (fictional) psychopathic crime lord to make one's point? Does that seem right to anyone?

Of course, such a man would despise debate, because debate is how democratic societies take significant action, particularly in regards to crime and punishment. Perhaps you should visit Iran. You might find their system "refreshing."

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

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Friday, November 19, 2010 8:33 AM

BLUEHANDEDMENACE


Ya know, it's kinda sad...i was expecting a chance to have an interesting discussion on the merits of military trials vs civilian, and what it means to the world that we try our criminals fairly...but i guess that wasn't meant to be.

instead of hearing even one valid argument on the subject, i get called stupid and ignorant....and then the loudmouth who does so runs away like a coward when someone calls him on his bullshit.

I'm a new convert over here, and I guess i was foolish to expect anything but childishness...

I can see where the frustration in some other threads comes from.

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Friday, November 19, 2010 8:47 AM

KPO

Sometimes you own the libs. Sometimes, the libs own you.


Quote:

is it that we aren't killing him? is that why you are upset?

He wants cowboy justice. Because that feels right. In his gut.

Quote:

Guys like us, we're not some brainiacs on the nerd patrol. We're not members of the factinista. We go straight from the gut. Right, sir?

That's where the truth lies, right down here in the gut. Do you know you have more nerve endings in your gut than you have in your head? You can look it up. Now, I know some of you are going to say, "I did look it up, and that's not true." That's 'cause you looked it up in a book. Next time, look it up in your gut. I did. My gut tells me that's how our nervous system works.

--- Stephen Colbert



It's not personal. It's just war.

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Friday, November 19, 2010 8:48 AM

BLUEHANDEDMENACE


Thats an awesome Colbert quote.

just perfect

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Friday, November 19, 2010 8:49 AM

STORYMARK


Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:

In WW2, we shot German spies who PLANNED to do very much the same thing this guy did. But it wasn't the civilian courts who tried them.





And we shot those who waterboarded troops.

Funny that you're okay with that.

"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."

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Friday, November 19, 2010 8:50 AM

STORYMARK


Quote:

Originally posted by canttakesky:
Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:
He was directly instrumental in the deaths of 224 innocent people.

In acquitting him of 284 counts in this case, the jury disagreed.

Could you please clarify, how is that Obama's fault?


----
Arrogant and proud of it.



Raptard will only be satisfied if Obama walks into the cell and executes them personally.

And even then, he'd probably bitch that he didn't use a big enough caliber.

"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."

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Friday, November 19, 2010 8:54 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Hello,

Articulating why someone should prefer military trials to civilian trials, or why someone might wish to avoid trials altogether, would require that they shape some unsavory ideas into unsavory words.

Take this, for instance: "All accused terrorists should be found guilty and receive the death penalty, regardless of the quality of evidence, the procedures for acquiring it, and the resultant violation of basic human rights. Any alternative result is a travesty."

It's a presumption of guilt, and possibly a desire for revenge.

An alternative explanation for the viewpoint is equally unsavory. i.e. The Military acted correctly and is infallible, while the Civilian government mucked things up with all their rules and procedures. Hence, Military justice is superior, and the Military should administer justice in our Nation.

This road leads to obvious ill ends.

But there is a more basic problem with the 'kill em all and let god sort 'em out' mentality.

What I find most remarkable about this philosophy is that it stems from weakness. It grows from fear. The adherents to this philosophy always claim to be the strong and brave few who are prepared to do what is necessary. But are they?

You can always tell the difference between a brave and principled man and an unprincipled coward.

The coward's first impulse is to harm others to create a better world.

The brave man's first impulse is to risk harm to create a better world.

Thus the man who chooses greater danger so that he can preserve a freer, fairer world is my hero.

The man who sacrifices freedom and fairness for his own safety is pitiable to me.

--Anthony

Assured by friends that the signal-to-noise ratio has improved on this forum, I have disabled web filtering.

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Friday, November 19, 2010 8:56 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:
Quote:

Originally posted by BlueHandedMenace:
Ok, so.....

the guy is convicted, going to spend his life in prison....and the problem is....what exactly??

I'm not entirely sure what your complaint is at the moment.



He was directly instrumental in the deaths of 224 innocent people.

You're fine w/ that ? A sentence of spending some time in jail is all he should get ?


Huh.



*IF* he was "directly instrumental in the deaths of 224 innocent people", then yes, he absolutely should spend some time in jail. Life without parole should cover it.

The problem is, the only "proof" that anyone has that he was involved was obtained via illegal and immoral means, and is hence inadmissable (even in a military court, tortured confessions are not admissable).

Evidence gained through torture carries the same weight as evidence planted by crooked cops: none. That is as it should be.

Blame the interrogators for fucking this one up, not the court system. Bad cops cost this case, not bad judges.

This Space For Rent!

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Friday, November 19, 2010 8:57 AM

BLUEHANDEDMENACE


Very, very well said, Anthony.

your spelling out of the details makes it quite clear why Rappy ran away.

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Friday, November 19, 2010 9:00 AM

CANTTAKESKY


Quote:

Originally posted by AnthonyT:
You can always tell the difference between a brave and principled man and an unprincipled coward.

The coward's first impulse is to harm others to create a better world.

The brave man's first impulse is to risk harm to create a better world.

Thus the man who chooses greater danger so that he can preserve a freer, fairer world is my hero.

The man who sacrifices freedom and fairness for his own safety is pitiable to me.

Anthony, I don't mean to creep you out. But I thought it is only right for you to know.

I'm starting a file of profound insights from RWED. Your "What If" commentary on 9/11 is the first entry. This bit right here, it's going to the second. I don't time to go back and clip tons of other cool things that have been said before. But you've inspired me to start saving them from now on.

CTS


----
Arrogant and proud of it.

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Friday, November 19, 2010 9:04 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Okay, this is easy to dissect:

First off, to point out: His sentence was 20 to life, without possibility of parole. And if you think for one second, do you really believe he’s going to be okay in prison? That he’s going to make that 20 years alive? Only if they keep him in isolation for 20 years, because he can't be paroled before that. And if you think ANY parole board is ever going to let him out, you're not thinking very clearly. Ergo: life in solitary. I'm sure you would prefer a death sentence, but that would cost FAR more than life in prison, and I think life in solitary is even better.

It might also be noted that he’s already spent considerable time in Gitmo, not known for it’s kind treatment of prisoners, and was tortured to boot. I don’t think he got off quite as easy as you want to make it sound, Raptor.

Not only that, but the REASON he wasn’t convicted on some of the other charges was:
Quote:

During his trial, prosecutors were prevented from using any evidence allegedly obtained from Ghailani through torture. But that evidence would also have been inadmissible if Ghailani had been tried by military tribunal, says Benjamin Wittes, a senior fellow with the Brookings institution who studies legal issues surrounding the war on terrorism.

“If you, when you arrest somebody like Ghailani, put him in long-term secret detention with enhanced interrogation, you will create enormous back-end problems for any criminal trial that you'd later try to conduct, including a federal court trial and including a military commission,” Wittes said.

http://www.kqed.org/news/story.jsp?id=38620&source=npr&category=world

In other words, the LAST “king” screwed up by waterboarding him. If you want to blame someone, blame the right person.

Also, I assume you’d prefer military tribunals and that’s your point. Unfortunately, you fail on that one as well.

I will answer your remark that “This travesty of injustice is a direct cause of Obama and his justice dept. Deal w/ that issue, first” by asking in what way it’s a travesty of justice, compared to what the Bush Administration did:
Quote:

Would that be different if the case were handled by a military commission?

Not necessarily.

One detainee charged before a military commission received a life sentence, but a few others got out within months, essentially being given credit for time they had already served.

Contrast that with the fate of four other men who were charged with taking part in those same Africa Embassy bombings years ago but never taken to Guantanamo.

Instead, they went to trial in New York -- and they're all spending the rest of their lives in a supermax prison.

Ghailani, meanwhile, faces a minimum term of 20 years in prison, and a maximum of life, when he is sentenced in January.

(same cite)

So what exactly is your answer, and why is Obama to blame for what you consider a miscarriage of justice, when under Bush, the result was even worse?

You’re really not doing very well. Once again, you are focusing on one thing to the exclusion of everything else; and you deliberately misrepresented Blue’s post, while pretending it’s some kind of “game” for him to ask quite valid questions, and never answering those questions.

I’m beginning to recognize your pattern, and it makes it much easier to respond to you. Try responding to the replies you’ve gotten, rather than just going back to your original point and, once again, claiming you won’t “play” a “game”, when in actuality it is you who have set up the game—-condemning Obama and blaming him completely for what you think is a less-than-satisfactory conclusion, when you have no better answer, given the military tribunals did a WORSE job.

No, you’re not refusing “to get sucked into the mindless minutia”, YOU’re playing a game; answer the questions, if you don’t want to play games. To refuse to debate the point because it’s a “waste of time” and call someone unintelligent for asking quite valid questions is a game. If you wanted a better result, tell us how you think it could have been achieved; if you want to slather Obama with blame, tell us how a military tribunal would have done better. But stop sliding out from under valid remarks by calling people stupid and clinging to your one point without explaining it.

Blue is directly on point; you’ve misrepresented, name called, avoided valid points by claiming “game”, As well, his remark that
Quote:

Rap sees: OMG they said he didnt do some of the crimes we said he did! its horrible!
is also directly on point. The man is in prison, with no chance for parole. You don’t like that. You want to use it as condemnation of Obama. Ignoring all the facts, that his having been tortured was why he wasn’t convicted of more than one count, that a military tribunal wouldn’t have done better, in fact might have done worse, you focus on that one point and cling to it, to the point of getting aggressive.

I agree with Anthony:
Quote:

Mr. Raptor's worldview and his method of communicating are often lamentable to me.... I have never admired them enough to emulate them.
I’d rather take him on point by point and show where he’s being illogical than give him the excuse to start a by sinking to his level.

I think that’s part of the pattern; when he’s proven wrong or his arguments refuted, he tries to trigger his opponents into getting down and dirty with him, to avoid having to defend himself.
Quote:

It merely displays one person's ability to B.S. better than the next. It pits folks against each other, by its very nature. Where as (sic) discussion, is a true meeting of the minds. Actual transference of information and ideas.
We DID transfer information. Am I to assume by "transfer of information" you mean that your initial post should have been all there was, and that people should only have responded with "thank you for the information"?

If debate is what you say, why do you continue to respond once you’ve made your “point”? There can be no ‘meeting of the minds’ when one person behaves the way you are: not responding to questions, attacking your opponents, refusing to “debate” because you don’t believe in it.

Of course you don’t believe in it, and you managed to slither the thread into a “debate” on debate, rather than dealing with the issues at hand. Anthony called it:
Quote:

Debating with Mr. Raptor has never solved anything. It always seems to result in an ever escalating mountain of bovine excrement. It is, by its very nature, an exercise in antagonism. There is no discussion, no meeting of the minds, no actual transference of information and ideas.
I’m coming to recognize that more and more, especially this morning after three threads have exemplified it.

For someone who decries the MSM, it’s curious you bring them along to “prove” your points. The actual fact IS that the report was about people not agreeing with the decision, which of course many wouldn't, given they want revenge, not justice, as you obviously do.

Two of the valid arguments not mentioned were, as I said, that a lot of evidence had to be thrown out because of torture, and military tribunals’ record is WORSE than that of the courts.
Quote:

I don't have to refute anything. This case refutes itself.
If that were so, then you shouldn’t have responded to the posts, you should have stated your case and let it stand. It doesn’t stand, but once again, you are clinging to what you need to believe in order to blame Obama, while ignoring all the valid facts of the case, and trying to divert the thread into name calling.

I’m better understanding the pattern, it really helps.


Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off




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Friday, November 19, 2010 9:08 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Go CTTS, I think that's a great idea. Better than my experiement, unquestionably.


Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off




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Friday, November 19, 2010 9:25 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Hello,

You are kind, Sky.

However, I believe that every crop of thought I've ever had has been grown and harvested before, and by better men.

--Anthony

Assured by friends that the signal-to-noise ratio has improved on this forum, I have disabled web filtering.

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Friday, November 19, 2010 11:03 AM

KPO

Sometimes you own the libs. Sometimes, the libs own you.


Quote:

Thats an awesome Colbert quote.

just perfect



The look on Bush's face as he gave it was pretty good as well:





It's not personal. It's just war.

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Friday, November 19, 2010 11:08 AM

BLUEHANDEDMENACE


Classic!

He looks like he just bit into a rotten piece of fruit...

Kinda like I looked in November of 2004.

Anyone here ever heard of sorryeverybody.com?

It was very cathartic at the time...pictures of Americans apologizing to the world for not getting him out of office...

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Friday, November 19, 2010 11:12 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Oh, gawd, yes (Sorryeverbody.com); I caught it when it first came out, and have pasted the link here a couple of times I think.

MORE than deserves to be posted again, tho', thank you. Did you ever bump across the response from the world, forgiving us? That one HURT, 'cuz one of the placards was "just don't do it again"...and then "we" re-elected Bush!

I saw the Colbert thing a while back, too, and enjoyed it even then. Worth seeing twice, tho'!


Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off




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Friday, November 19, 2010 11:58 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)




"The folly of our boy King"


Seriously... Why the hate?



This Space For Rent!

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