REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

Any news on docu-drama talked about not so long ago? the 'might' have happened at 9/11-2001

POSTED BY: KRELLEK
UPDATED: Tuesday, November 16, 2010 10:32
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Sunday, November 7, 2010 11:58 AM

KRELLEK


hey there, just curious, any news on that docu-drama that was talk about not that long ago? the one about what "might" have happened the 9/11-2001?, especially the little thing with one of the actors and it might have been a some other person involved with the making of it, is that little youtube video, where I do believe they also mentioned something setting it to vote for thorugh investigation of it all, to be done in a election, was that in this election that was just here, or then a mayor is to be found for New York or how/when

an the other quite many links for other articles regarding the same subject matter.

p.s just a little thing have any of you tried googling WTC7 and seen some of the articles there? just that there is this scientific magazine here in denmark(named illustrated Science i guess it can be translated to) came out this month with the adding to an article about what is about to be build at the site of the twin towers, that said that scientifically it had been found out that WTC7 fell 7 hours due to a fire igntided by the falling of one the towers, and not some conspiracy that added a little help, but in one of the articles i found on google said something about FEMA had tried multiple times on some kind of model to test if the carrying metal skelleton could be weakened enough to cause a collapse like that with a fire, and it seemed it could not i believe it said, but then the same article I think it was ends with saying that someone had ordered the WTC7-building to be demolished due to the fire that had been, and was unsalvageable so the experiments was stopped, and not only that, how long does it take to place the explosives in a building that is to be demolished in a safe, controled manner? i do not think it can be done in 7 hours, and here we must also take the fire into consideration.

friendly greetings from KrelleK



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Sunday, November 7, 2010 5:35 PM

DREAMTROVE


Bump

I don't have the time at the moment, seriously, but this is a good point, so bump, for other people to handle it.

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Sunday, November 7, 2010 6:37 PM

FIVVER


Here's a link to an article that was published in Popular Mechanics magazine that does an excellent job of debunking the comspiracy theories surrounding 9/11. It was made into a tv special and an expanded version is also available in book form.

http://www.popularmechanics.com/technology/military/news/1227842

Note to all the truthers who are going to come shrieking to this thread: A wise man once told me, "Don't try to teach a pig to sing. It wastes your time and it annoys the pig." In other words, I don't argue with morons.

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Sunday, November 7, 2010 7:18 PM

PIRATENEWS

John Lee, conspiracy therapist at Hollywood award-winner History Channel-mocked SNL-spoofed PirateNew.org wooHOO!!!!!!


Quote:

Originally posted by fivver:

Here's a link to an article that was published in Popular Mechanics magazine that does an excellent job of debunking the comspiracy theories surrounding 9/11. It was made into a tv special and an expanded version is also available in book form.

http://www.popularmechanics.com/technology/military/news/1227842



That PopMech bunk was written by Benji Chertoff, cousin to the Israeli Communist jew director of US Fatherland Security Michael Chertoff, who owns the naked body scanners in airports.

The PopMech bunk was damage control for my radio conversation with Colonel Donn De Grandprix, OSS USAF. PopMech censored the fact that jew General Lyman Lemnitzer signed a confession to 9/11 in Operation Northwoods. PopMech's debut on History Channel to attack me censored the fact that Lt Col Rick Gibney confessed to shooting down Flight 93:


http://piratenews.org/flight93.html





Propaganda FAIL.

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Sunday, November 7, 2010 10:37 PM

FREMDFIRMA



As crazy as John Boy is, he is correct - that was a straight up "hit piece" penned by Ben, and he was fed more than a couple juicy bits by his familial relation that since they've not been released to anyone else (or hadn't at the time) were impossible to fact-check, and they ran it anyway.

Didn't do wonders for their credibility, that.

As for Building 7, there was an admission it was "pulled" (i.e. intentionally demolished) - which'd be fine if it were a safety thing, but therein DOES lie an essential question, if so WHO wired the charges and WHEN, hell, for that matter HOW, cause juggling high explosive in the middle of a smouldering wreck doesn't strike me as exactly a safe idea.

There's also the reporting of one of the collapses BEFORE it actually happened, the Odigo warning, and some stock trades to follow up on, the latter two all but INSTANTLY dropped from any investigation what-so-ever, just like the bastards in that truck, as soon as it was discovered to relate to our so-called-ally-who-shall-not-be-named...

Which sets PN all into a tizzy, but ain't so much they mighta done it, as that they knew and didn't tell us - but we SHOULD have known, when we originally bagged KSM with a properly served and executed warrant, and via the evidence gained by that and a standard no-contact by-the-book interrogation, we KNEW ALL THIS, but stuffed it in a back corner and ignored it in favor of waterboarding him which caused him to go insane and not only "confess" to shit he didn't do and couldn't have done, but also wrecked any validity of the info he originally gave us since he no longer is credible as a source...

Anyhow, there's plenty of unanswered questions, most of which point the finger at the Saudis as either halfass participants or outright dupes (they pay protection money to these goons, so as not to get attacked), and the big baddie most responsible when you saw through the tangle is some dipship Kuwati ain't none of you never heard of - good LUCK questioning HIM though, since US Authorities grabbed his ass without bothering with a warrant or even accusation, and stuffed his ass more or less under a federal supermax prison out in friggin Colorado.

And, yanno, what exactly was Mohammed Atta doing on Jack Abramoffs boat just before those events, and has anyone really asked ole Jack about that ?

Too many questions, not many answers - enough to know the "official story" is bullshit though, and until there's a REAL investigation, or someone spills, well, theory is all we'll have.

I will say this much, historically, EVERY SINGLE ONE of these kinds of incidents has either been faked (Gulf of Tonkin), outright bullshit (USS Maine) or deliberately provoked (Pearl Harbor) - which in combination with a *known* intention of creating/capitalizing on such an event (Operation Northwoods), since the "official" sources continue to LIE to us - what we DO know is that they're lying.

Which is ALL we really KNOW - but isn't that enough ?

-Frem

I do not serve the Blind God.

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Monday, November 8, 2010 1:14 AM

KRELLEK


Thank you all, for what you have come forth with, you are all welcome to come with more, because I am thinking of trying to send a email to that danish magazine. with links to as many of these articles as possible.

so please bring me more

Friendly greetings from KrelleK

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Monday, November 8, 2010 4:13 AM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up


Quote:

Originally posted by Fremdfirma:

As crazy as John Boy is, he is correct - that was a straight up "hit piece" penned by Ben, and he was fed more than a couple juicy bits by his familial relation that since they've not been released to anyone else (or hadn't at the time) were impossible to fact-check, and they ran it anyway.



Quote:

Guilt by Association

Soon after the Popular Mechanics report appeared, conspiracy buffs began parsing the names of the various researchers who contributed to the article, noting the odd coincidence that Benjamin Chertoff, then the head of the magazine's research Department, has the same last name as the then newly appointed head of the Department of Homeland Security, Michael Chertoff. In a rare instance of reportorial initiative (most 9/11 "Internet researchers" rarely venture beyond Google), Christopher Bollyn phoned Ben's mother, who volunteered that, yes, she thinks Michael Chertoff might be a distant cousin. "Chertoff's Cousin Penned Popular Mechanics 9/11 Hit Piece," read the headline on Bollyn's next American Free Press story. "This is exactly the kind of `journalism' one would expect to find in a dictatorship like that of Saddam Hussein's Iraq," he concluded. Later, a headline was added to his article: "Ben Chertoff: Propagandist & Illuminati Disinformation Tool."

As often happens in the world of conspiracy theories, a grain of truth--it's possible that Ben and Michael Chertoff are distantly related--was built into a towering dune. In fact, Ben and Michael Chertoff have never spoken. And no one at Popular Mechanics had any contact with Michael Chertoff's office while preparing the article. Moreover, Ben was one of many researchers on the story, not the author. (Then, of course, there's the question of why Ben--and his colleagues--would be eager to get involved with one of the greatest crimes in history.) But in the world of 9/11 conspiracy theories, coincidence is proof of collaboration.



http://www.popularmechanics.com/technology/military/news/4199607



"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Monday, November 8, 2010 5:33 AM

KRELLEK


what was it the docu drama was called?

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Monday, November 8, 2010 6:39 AM

KRELLEK


A little thought, what if the REAL truth of what happened on 9/11-2001 is actually somewhere between the official story, and the other that the 9/11-truthers think is being covered up.

this thought being that I remember, I once read something about Osama Bin Laden and others had been trained by someone, might have been CIA.

just a thought, that could maybe explain somethings, like why no one had lost the will to go though with it, and gone and said something to news, because it might not be that many people involved in it. and maybe why Osama has never been captured.

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Monday, November 8, 2010 7:22 AM

FREMDFIRMA


Geeze, I file that claim right up there with a suspected bank robber, covered in dye-bomb, screaming "I didn't do it!".
Seriously, you really think imma take the word of someone who penned an obvious hit-piece at face value ?

And yes Krel, many of the terrorists who have come back to haunt us are folk our intel people trained or materially supported in the first place, mostly in response to the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan, which found our black bag boys supporting the Mujas quite a bit, and there's at least one FOIA document which mentions a Tim Osman in reference to USAMA/OSAMA - and appears to be some discussion about anti-aircraft weapons being supplied to the Mujas via a CIA front company.

Khalid-Shiek-Mohammed and Ramzi Youssef on the other hand, not enough evidence to say, but Emad Salem was directly working *for* the FBI when he handed over a working bomb to them back in 1993 (the one that blew the hell out of the WTCs basement) which was given to him by the FBI, then helped them wire it - without which the incompetent shitheels would have almost certainly been unable to accomplish anything.

More interesting is that the FBI handler SPECIFICALLY ordered Emad Salem *not* to sabotage the bomb when he became concerned over the fact that he just handed a bunch of nutters with real intent a live munition...

And then the FBI tried to pretend he was just another terrorist and set him up as a patsy, which failed because he became suspicious of his handler and had begun tape recording those conversations - USDOJ took him in and shoved him into WITPRO (Witness Protection Program) to shield him from FBI retaliation, and the whole matter was glossed over - but if you look, you can find those recordings and listen to em your own self, it's pretty clear that the FBI is more responsible for that explosion than the terrorists, cause left on their own, their chances of successfully building a bomb or even getting the materials for one without drawing attention were pretty pathetic.

In fact, many of our "Enemies"... Noriega, Saddam, Osama - were guys we set up in the first place, real bastards who were set up in opposition to other bastards, or put in place to maintain US control of various resources.

The Saddam Hussien problem, again, goes back to our participation in the 1953 assassination of Mossedeigh, followed by installation of The Shah, who was a complete scumbag - this was done to maintain control of the oil supply and keep a sweetheart deal for the involved corporations, without regard to how many would die for it...

That directly lead to the Islamic Revolution in 1979, the Hostage Crisis, and all that mess, plus the rise of the Ayatolla Khomeni, who hated our guts and for damn good reason, since we'd installed a brutal, murderous puppet-dictator and gave material and other support to his secret police, SAVAK - who the CIA outright admitted teaching torture tactics to.

So, in response we propped up Saddam Hussien, and provoked a war in hopes of crippling Iran and deposing the Ayatolla.... and so forth, and so on.

And if this dumb shit reminds you of the faery tale of the old lady who swallowed a spider, you are not alone in that assessment.

As for Osamas current fate, well...

He's dead, straight up - we nailed his ass the week of December 12th 2001, we'd been blowing the shit out of his main base for a while, and had finally gotten a lock on his transmitter and hit the tent it was in with a missle or artillery shell, which badly wounded him and critically damaged his portable dialysis machine, which wasn't working too well by the time anyway due to a shortage of fresh water as a result of our blockade of the area.

We hadn't been expecting to get him directly, but he was bunking in the same tent as the radio (tactically stupid, I know) cause it helped keep his tent warm and as you well know he loved to hear himself talk... so he caught a buncha shrapnel and being in poor health already, with a now broken dialysis machine, he succumbed shortly thereafter to death via respiratory/cardiac failure - most of the rest of the planet even carried his obituary, it was just suppressed here.

His flunkies of course didn't want it getting out that he was dead (even though it did, people talk, even and especially when they're not supposed to!) for reasons of their own, not the least of which was an attempt to prevent their pocket empire and alliance with the Taliban from collapsing - and our intel boys SURE don't want it getting out that he's dead, cause they wanna use him as a kind of eternal Emmanuel Goldstein to keep up the booga-booga, but the only folk buyin that are the ones who haven't bothered to do even the most cursory checking of their own.

But hey, don't take my word for it, I've given you plenty enough to do your own verification if you like - in the end of it however, the truth is that no one involved in this in any way is innocent, and it's the desperate attempts to avoid actually admitting anything which lead to the lies, you see.

Again, all we KNOW, is that the official story is bullshit, that the folks in power lied to us, and continue to lie to us - about specifically what, and how much, is again a matter of conjecture.

But that they felt the need indicates SOME level of guilt, complicity, or incompetence that is completely unacceptable.

-Frem

Truth overcomes all bonds!

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Monday, November 8, 2010 10:44 AM

KRELLEK


Quote:

Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
Geeze, I file that claim right up there with a suspected bank robber, covered in dye-bomb, screaming "I didn't do it!".
Seriously, you really think imma take the word of someone who penned an obvious hit-piece at face value ?

And yes Krel, many of the terrorists who have come back to haunt us are folk our intel people trained or materially supported in the first place, mostly in response to the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan, which found our black bag boys supporting the Mujas quite a bit, and there's at least one FOIA document which mentions a Tim Osman in reference to USAMA/OSAMA - and appears to be some discussion about anti-aircraft weapons being supplied to the Mujas via a CIA front company.

Khalid-Shiek-Mohammed and Ramzi Youssef on the other hand, not enough evidence to say, but Emad Salem was directly working *for* the FBI when he handed over a working bomb to them back in 1993 (the one that blew the hell out of the WTCs basement) which was given to him by the FBI, then helped them wire it - without which the incompetent shitheels would have almost certainly been unable to accomplish anything.

More interesting is that the FBI handler SPECIFICALLY ordered Emad Salem *not* to sabotage the bomb when he became concerned over the fact that he just handed a bunch of nutters with real intent a live munition...

And then the FBI tried to pretend he was just another terrorist and set him up as a patsy, which failed because he became suspicious of his handler and had begun tape recording those conversations - USDOJ took him in and shoved him into WITPRO (Witness Protection Program) to shield him from FBI retaliation, and the whole matter was glossed over - but if you look, you can find those recordings and listen to em your own self, it's pretty clear that the FBI is more responsible for that explosion than the terrorists, cause left on their own, their chances of successfully building a bomb or even getting the materials for one without drawing attention were pretty pathetic.

In fact, many of our "Enemies"... Noriega, Saddam, Osama - were guys we set up in the first place, real bastards who were set up in opposition to other bastards, or put in place to maintain US control of various resources.

The Saddam Hussien problem, again, goes back to our participation in the 1953 assassination of Mossedeigh, followed by installation of The Shah, who was a complete scumbag - this was done to maintain control of the oil supply and keep a sweetheart deal for the involved corporations, without regard to how many would die for it...

That directly lead to the Islamic Revolution in 1979, the Hostage Crisis, and all that mess, plus the rise of the Ayatolla Khomeni, who hated our guts and for damn good reason, since we'd installed a brutal, murderous puppet-dictator and gave material and other support to his secret police, SAVAK - who the CIA outright admitted teaching torture tactics to.

So, in response we propped up Saddam Hussien, and provoked a war in hopes of crippling Iran and deposing the Ayatolla.... and so forth, and so on.

And if this dumb shit reminds you of the faery tale of the old lady who swallowed a spider, you are not alone in that assessment.

As for Osamas current fate, well...

He's dead, straight up - we nailed his ass the week of December 12th 2001, we'd been blowing the shit out of his main base for a while, and had finally gotten a lock on his transmitter and hit the tent it was in with a missle or artillery shell, which badly wounded him and critically damaged his portable dialysis machine, which wasn't working too well by the time anyway due to a shortage of fresh water as a result of our blockade of the area.

We hadn't been expecting to get him directly, but he was bunking in the same tent as the radio (tactically stupid, I know) cause it helped keep his tent warm and as you well know he loved to hear himself talk... so he caught a buncha shrapnel and being in poor health already, with a now broken dialysis machine, he succumbed shortly thereafter to death via respiratory/cardiac failure - most of the rest of the planet even carried his obituary, it was just suppressed here.

His flunkies of course didn't want it getting out that he was dead (even though it did, people talk, even and especially when they're not supposed to!) for reasons of their own, not the least of which was an attempt to prevent their pocket empire and alliance with the Taliban from collapsing - and our intel boys SURE don't want it getting out that he's dead, cause they wanna use him as a kind of eternal Emmanuel Goldstein to keep up the booga-booga, but the only folk buyin that are the ones who haven't bothered to do even the most cursory checking of their own.

But hey, don't take my word for it, I've given you plenty enough to do your own verification if you like - in the end of it however, the truth is that no one involved in this in any way is innocent, and it's the desperate attempts to avoid actually admitting anything which lead to the lies, you see.

Again, all we KNOW, is that the official story is bullshit, that the folks in power lied to us, and continue to lie to us - about specifically what, and how much, is again a matter of conjecture.

But that they felt the need indicates SOME level of guilt, complicity, or incompetence that is completely unacceptable.

-Frem

Truth overcomes all bonds!



Hello there Frem, not sure entirely sure how to take this, not entirely sure, if I should read this as I was completely off target, or completely on target, sorry about that, my fault I guess

I guess I somewhat still thought he was alive, well I did read something about Osama dying, was it 3-4 years ago due to some somewhat dangerous disease? then again not that long ago, there was something again about him still being out there somewhere.

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Monday, November 8, 2010 11:30 AM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up


Quote:

Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
Geeze, I file that claim right up there with a suspected bank robber, covered in dye-bomb, screaming "I didn't do it!".
Seriously, you really think imma take the word of someone who penned an obvious hit-piece at face value ?



Nope. I think you're gonna use all the denials that all the 9/11 truthers use.

Have fun with it. I don't argue religion, so I'm out.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Monday, November 8, 2010 11:51 AM

KRELLEK


Quote:

Originally posted by Geezer:
Quote:

Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
Geeze, I file that claim right up there with a suspected bank robber, covered in dye-bomb, screaming "I didn't do it!".
Seriously, you really think imma take the word of someone who penned an obvious hit-piece at face value ?



Nope. I think you're gonna use all the denials that all the 9/11 truthers use.

Have fun with it. I don't argue religion, so I'm out.

"Keep the Shiny side up"



EErrhhh okay, where is religion mixed in, in this?

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Monday, November 8, 2010 4:50 PM

FREMDFIRMA



Krell, Geezer is offended that I refuse to take at face value, without a whit of evidence, the mere word of a person with every reason to lie, who already displayed suspicious behavior by failing to disclose up front the relation.

And so he calls my suspicion an act of faith rather than logic and departs the discussion, rather than offering any evidence beyond the guys unsupported statement to back his claim.

As for how to take what I said - again, don't take anyones word for it, not even mine, actually dig into it and decide for yourself, there's plenty of information out there, but sorting it all into any kind of coherence without a helping hand is difficult, at best - and so by giving a general overview, you've at least got names and specific situations to start with, which oughta help.

-Frem

I do not serve the Blind God.

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Monday, November 8, 2010 7:03 PM

CANTTAKESKY


Krellek, I don't know which docu-drama you are talking about. But there are several documentaries and many websites out there questioning the official 9/11 story.

Here are some of the classics.

Loose Change



Loose Change, 2nd Ed.



Architects & Engineers for 9/11 Truth
http://www.ae911truth.org/

Pilots for 9/11 Truth
http://www.pilotsfor911truth.org/

Firefighters for 9/11 Truth
http://firefightersfor911truth.org/



-----
Disclaimer: I say what I mean, and I mean what I say. I don't imply things. So if you make an inference from what I said, it is probably wrong. Posting a link doesn't automatically mean I agree with the contents. If you're not sure about where I stand, please ask, preferably politely, before jumping to conclusions. Thank you.

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Tuesday, November 9, 2010 3:32 AM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up


Quote:

Originally posted by Fremdfirma:

Krell, Geezer is offended that I refuse to take at face value, without a whit of evidence, the mere word of a person with every reason to lie, who already displayed suspicious behavior by failing to disclose up front the relation.



Okay. So do you have any actual evidence of the two Chertoff's being related, especially being related so closely that one would try to cover up the crime of the century for the other, besides the two of them having the same last name?

"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Tuesday, November 9, 2010 4:46 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by Geezer:
Quote:

Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
Geeze, I file that claim right up there with a suspected bank robber, covered in dye-bomb, screaming "I didn't do it!".
Seriously, you really think imma take the word of someone who penned an obvious hit-piece at face value ?



Nope. I think you're gonna use all the denials that all the 9/11 truthers use.

Have fun with it. I don't argue religion, so I'm out.

"Keep the Shiny side up"




Well, unless that "religion" happens to be capitalism and The American Way™, of course.


The modern definition of "socialist" is anyone who's winning an argument against a tea-bagger.

AURaptor's Greatest Hits:

Friday, September 24, 2010
I hate Obama's America. You're damn right about that.


Friday, May 28, 2010 - 18:26 To President Obama:
Mr. President, you're a god damn, mother fucking liar.
Fuck you, you cock sucking community activist piece of shit.
... go fuck yourself, Mr. President.


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Tuesday, November 9, 2010 10:27 AM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up


Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:
Well, unless that "religion" happens to be capitalism and The American Way™, of course.



Now where was that button? Ah.



"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Tuesday, November 9, 2010 1:44 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


If only you'd stick to that. But you won't.


The modern definition of "socialist" is anyone who's winning an argument against a tea-bagger.

AURaptor's Greatest Hits:

Friday, September 24, 2010
I hate Obama's America. You're damn right about that.


Friday, May 28, 2010 - 18:26 To President Obama:
Mr. President, you're a god damn, mother fucking liar.
Fuck you, you cock sucking community activist piece of shit.
... go fuck yourself, Mr. President.


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Wednesday, November 10, 2010 8:45 AM

KRELLEK


Quote:

Originally posted by canttakesky:
Krellek, I don't know which docu-drama you are talking about. But there are several documentaries and many websites out there questioning the official 9/11 story.

Here are some of the classics.

Loose Change



Loose Change, 2nd Ed.



Architects & Engineers for 9/11 Truth
http://www.ae911truth.org/

Pilots for 9/11 Truth
http://www.pilotsfor911truth.org/

Firefighters for 9/11 Truth
http://firefightersfor911truth.org/



-----
Disclaimer: I say what I mean, and I mean what I say. I don't imply things. So if you make an inference from what I said, it is probably wrong. Posting a link doesn't automatically mean I agree with the contents. If you're not sure about where I stand, please ask, preferably politely, before jumping to conclusions. Thank you.




thanks for the links, i cannot remember what the docu-drama was called. something like shattered mirror, or some other things

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Wednesday, November 10, 2010 9:09 AM

CANTTAKESKY


Krellek,

Are you talking about Oil, Smoke, & Mirrors?

http://www.911docs.net/oil_smoke_mirrors.php

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Wednesday, November 10, 2010 9:12 AM

STORYMARK


Quote:

Originally posted by Geezer:
Quote:

Originally posted by Fremdfirma:

Krell, Geezer is offended that I refuse to take at face value, without a whit of evidence, the mere word of a person with every reason to lie, who already displayed suspicious behavior by failing to disclose up front the relation.



Okay. So do you have any actual evidence of the two Chertoff's being related, especially being related so closely that one would try to cover up the crime of the century for the other, besides the two of them having the same last name?

"Keep the Shiny side up"



Yeah, I have plenty of cousins I've never met, and I'm pretty sure there are a bunch who's first names I've never heard, but they share my last name.

It's hard to take the conspiracy folks seriously when they leap so vigorously on everything as proof of some massive conspiracy.

"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."

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Wednesday, November 10, 2010 9:26 AM

FIVVER


Yeah. I've got a nephew that lives in New York, a brother who used to live in Dallas and I've installed computer equipment for NASA at the KSC.

According to their logic (sic) that puts me right in the middle of the Kennedy assassination, the moon landing hoax and 9/11. Damn I'm evil.

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Wednesday, November 10, 2010 9:26 AM

CANTTAKESKY


Quote:

Originally posted by Geezer:
Okay. So do you have any actual evidence of the two Chertoff's being related, especially being related so closely that one would try to cover up the crime of the century for the other, besides the two of them having the same last name?



I can't speak for Frem and PN of course.

All I can find on this relationship is a report by Christopher Bollyn, who claims to have called Ben Chertoff's mother and asked if he was related to Michael Chertoff. According to them, she replied, "Yes, of course, he is a cousin."

http://www.prisonplanet.com/articles/march2005/070305chertoffscousin.h
tm


(All other reports of their relationship are based on this one.)

However, Ben Chertoff denies this. He claims his mother only said, "They might be distant cousins."

http://www.911myths.com/html/benjamin_chertoff.html

He denies ever having talked to Michael Chertoff.

Even if he IS related, the relationship is neither here nor there. Does the Pop Mechanics present arguments that make sense? I always say, judge arguments on their own merits, not on who is saying it.

The source only matters if there is doubt about the accuracy and veracity of reported facts. Here we have two people claiming different facts on what Chertoff's mother actually said. Just from my humble point of view, unless I have concrete evidence otherwise, I would give Ben Chertoff the benefit of the doubt. He knows who he is related to and is less likely to misunderstand his mother than some prisonplanet reporter who called once.

----
The use of strawmen arguments, when you put words into my mouth that I never said and proceed to tell me why those imaginary words are all manner of horrible, is dishonest in civil discourse. I appreciate refrain from such tactics.

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Wednesday, November 10, 2010 3:01 PM

FREMDFIRMA



Ok then, perhaps you would offer some other explaination as to why the Pop Mech hit piece contained substantial information which had not at the time, been released to the public - which also coincidentally made assessment of it's accuracy impossible since they were unwilling to share that information.

Still, this is deflection over a nitpick point, especially since one might notice out of all the info I posted this is the only bit anyone cared to dispute.

So in essence you got one "side" saying "oh no, the official story is true.. BECAUSE IT IS, really, uh huh, trust the people who've lied to you for fifty years, really..."

And you got, well, you got the PN-ish crowd goin on about everything from nano-whatever to martian death rays...

And then there's folk like me who simply offer what they know and tell YOU to look at the evidence YOURSELF and make up your own damn mind.

Of them all, who you trust, is up to you.

-Frem

I do not serve the Blind God.

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Wednesday, November 10, 2010 3:12 PM

CANTTAKESKY


Quote:

Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
Still, this is deflection over a nitpick point, especially since one might notice out of all the info I posted this is the only bit anyone cared to dispute.

It was the only part I commented on cause I got no problems with anything else you said. This part I didn't know about, so I had to look it up. Thought I'd share what I found.

But like I said, it shouldn't matter who wrote it. Facts and evidence should speak for themselves.

Personally, I got more questions than answers. But one thing I DO know, the probability that the official is utter BS is overwhelmingly high in my book.

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Wednesday, November 10, 2010 4:50 PM

KRELLEK


no it was not this one, I am sorry to say, happy to see it(never seen this one before)

the one i am thinking of was an actual movie I believe, where I think it was an investigative reporter(maybe played by Michael Riley(the guy that also playede in the docu drama about the yellowstone supervulcano)) for some reason get a whif of things, an begins to investigate it. it was in the youtube thingy that saw through a link from this site, where (maybe it was)Michael Riley and a some other person that also worked on it, just not in front of the camera, sat in the sun and talked about it to an interviewer, about how they to began to see some things that might not add upp to the official story, and began going through lots of articles that had been written since, and most of these where articles that at there time had not gotten the place in the newspapers, or as much space as they waranted. they ends up with telling about the 9/11truth.org or something was trying(at that time)to get a place on the next voting paper to one the next coming elections. for to get the enough people to say they wanted a new investigation of the 9/11-happening, what was going on and such. done by a what is it called investigator.

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Wednesday, November 10, 2010 5:07 PM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up


Quote:

Originally posted by Fremdfirma:

Ok then, perhaps you would offer some other explaination as to why the Pop Mech hit piece contained substantial information which had not at the time, been released to the public - which also coincidentally made assessment of it's accuracy impossible since they were unwilling to share that information.



Okay. So you don't have any evidence that the PM Chertoff and the government Chertoff are related to the point that the PM Chertoff would not only agree to cover up the crime of the century, but also be able to convince all the other PM writers, their editors, the PM management, the Chertoff family, and all the sources for the PM article to cover up the "truth" about 9/11 and the Chertoff plot to cover it up.

You also make the unsubstantiated allegation that "Pop Mech hit piece contained substantial information which had not at the time, been released to the public." Any evidence of this? Please provide it.

Quote:

Still, this is deflection over a nitpick point, especially since one might notice out of all the info I posted this is the only bit anyone cared to dispute.

No. It's the first bit I care to dispute, and a pretty important one at that. If you can't prove that the PM piece is not correct, then pretty much any of the 9/11 Truther claims they disprove appear bogus.

Madame Geezer (No lover of the Bush administration) asked (to me) a most interesting question about the whole "9/11 as an excuse to attack Iraq" idea.

How could a government that could fake the whole 9/11 attack, fly remote controlled planes/missiles/whatever into buildings, plant explosives, shoot down airliners, suborn and convince hundreds or thousands of folks to cover it all up, and successfully get away with it - how could they not be able to successfully bury a couple of WMDs in Iraq for us to find?



"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Wednesday, November 10, 2010 6:59 PM

FREMDFIRMA



I believe you mean Michael Fairman, the dude who played Adelai Niska...

And the name of the Film is
The Reflecting Pool
http://www.reflectingpoolfilm.com/



As for you Geeze, much of the info they put in eact "Fact" refutation was not publicly released prior to the article, and some of it has been disproven, yet it offers a 100% correlation with the shovel job offered to the commission assigned to investigate the matter, who themselves expressed doubts.

And you keep clearly assigning beliefs to me that I may or may not hold - the only assertion I have made in this thread is that the official story is quite literally, bunk.

You want a point by point refutation, in order to bog the discussion down and cause folk to lose interest so it all goes away, being that sophistry and disinformation are your primary tactics - fine, we'll go there, cause I'll shred this one down to the quarks, but it still will not change the simple fact that official version of events does not hold water.

Point by point is gonna have to wait a bit though, cause I have rounds to do, mind you.

-Frem

I do not serve the Blind God.

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Wednesday, November 10, 2010 7:39 PM

CANTTAKESKY


Wow, thanks for finding that Frem. It looks like an excellent movie. Wish I could watch it.

Found a review here:
http://pilotsfor911truth.org/forum/index.php?showtopic=11598&hl

At $15 a pop, I might spring for it.

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Thursday, November 11, 2010 2:37 AM

KRELLEK



that was the one i was thinking about, thank you FremdFirma.

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Thursday, November 11, 2010 5:27 AM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up


Quote:

Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
As for you Geeze, much of the info they put in eact "Fact" refutation was not publicly released prior to the article, and some of it has been dis-proven, yet it offers a 100% correlation with the shovel job offered to the commission assigned to investigate the matter, who themselves expressed doubts.



Proof? Evidence? If you won't take Chertoff's word, or the word of PM's editor-in-chief, James B. Meigs, why should I believe claims you make with no backup?

Quote:

You want a point by point refutation, in order to bog the discussion down and cause folk to lose interest so it all goes away, being that sophistry and disinformation are your primary tactics


Boy, that's classic.

I asked you for one thing - any evidence to support your allegation ("As crazy as John Boy is, he is correct...") that the two Chertoffs are related to the degree that the PM writer would participate - and convince his co-workers, bosses, sources, family, etc. to participate - in a massive coverup of the crime of the century.

You provided none, but instead made another unsubstantiated claim about the PM articles having "substantial information which had not at the time, been released to the public." so I asked for any proof of that.

So far you haven't provided any evidence to support any of the claims I've questioned. instead, you accuse me of "sophistry and disinformation" for asking that you back up what you say with facts.

So to keep you from getting bogged down, let's just stick to the original question I asked.

"So do you have any actual evidence of the two Chertoff's being related, especially being related so closely that one would try to cover up the crime of the century for the other, besides the two of them having the same last name?"

As food for thought, Ben Chertoff didn't "author" any article. Per PM, he was one of several researchers on the story. The byline on the magazine articles is "The Editors".

"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Thursday, November 11, 2010 8:06 AM

FREMDFIRMA



Apparently you're unfamilar with editors, and I bloody told you that you were going to have to wait a bit, did I not ?

Look, I know your game, ok, push folk into spending countless hours running stuff down that you will dismiss out of hand to waste their time and frustrate them for your amusement, but hey, fuck it, it's my time to waste - still, I *do* have other things to do than play pattycake with you, Geeze, and I DID pick out the claims in question, but first, since you made such a goddamn issue out of it, imma point out to you some things...

Firstoff, I had to cover rounds on site three and do payroll, which is a bitch of paperwork for a small business with a lotta fuckin hoops to jump through and all too many ways to shoot yourself in the foot - AND I hadda handle a somewhat lesser challenge (That I *can* actually make a Bombe Alaska) to people who I care about a bit more personally, since Alice and myself have a sort of running culinary skills duel goin on, and of course Wendy ain't never seen such a thing in her life - not that it stopped her from wiping it out in about a minute flat...

PLUS there's a local "situation" involving some punkass bitch who wheedled his way into an underage girls pants, and then when this came back to haunt him in the form of an arrest, got his school buddies to harrass her to the point of her committing suicide - therefore demolishing any chance of making a case against him so he gets to walk scot-free, and if that wasn't enough the little "celebration party" him and his friends had about it put it over the top...
"Ding dong the bitch is dead" ?!
Yeah, well, him and his had better flee the state, if not the goddamn country cause that's something I have no intention of letting go, so excuse me if a damn internet discussion comes a little behind that in my list of priorities.

Anyhow, next post up will have the salient points, but let's have this clear up front - I do not work for you, you do not give me orders.

You asked a legit question admist your games playing, despite there being far more critical points you could have addressed, and I did concede you'd have an answer, but not that bloody instant, you can either accept that, or not.

-Frem

I do not serve the Blind God.

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Thursday, November 11, 2010 8:07 AM

FREMDFIRMA


Ok, I shall restrict this ONLY to information not publicly released prior to publication - this is gonna be tricky since what was and wasn't released at the time is very difficult to determine, be advised that you're all but asking the impossible here, but I'll try.
Quote:

On 9/11 there were only 14 fighter jets on alert in the contiguous 48 states. No computer network or alarm automatically alerted the North American Air Defense Command (NORAD) of missing planes. "They [civilian Air Traffic Control, or ATC] had to pick up the phone and literally dial us," says Maj. Douglas Martin, public affairs officer for NORAD. Boston Center, one of 22 Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) regional ATC facilities, called NORAD's Northeast Air Defense Sector (NEADS) three times: at 8:37 am EST to inform NEADS that Flight 11 was hijacked; at 9:21 am to inform the agency, mistakenly, that Flight 11 was headed for Washington (the plane had hit the North Tower 35 minutes earlier); and at 9:41 am to (erroneously) identify Delta Air Lines Flight 1989 from Boston as a possible hijacking. The New York ATC called NEADS at 9:03 am to report that United Flight 175 had been hijacked—the same time the plane slammed into the South Tower. Within minutes of that first call from Boston Center, NEADS scrambled two F-15s from Otis Air Force Base in Falmouth, Mass., and three F-16s from Langley Air National Guard Base in Hampton, Va. None of the fighters got anywhere near the pirated planes.

NONE of this information was available to the public prior to publication - any previous attempt to get it resulted in vague statements and stonewalling, and it was as I recall the first anyone heard of five interceptors having been scrambled rather than two.

Quote:

While heading a Federal Emergency Management Agency (FEMA) probe into the collapse of the towers, W. Gene Corley studied the airplane wreckage. A licensed structural engineer with Construction Technology Laboratories, a consulting firm based in Skokie, Ill., Corley and his team photographed aircraft debris on the roof of WTC 5, including a chunk of fuselage that clearly had passenger windows.

FEMA had not released any information to the public concerning this, nor have those particular photos been made available, that I am aware of.

Quote:

Following up on a May 2002 preliminary report by the Federal Emergency Management Agency (FEMA), a major study will be released in spring 2005 by the National Institute of Standards and Technology (NIST), a branch of the U.S. Department of Commerce. NIST shared its initial findings with PM and made its lead researcher available to our team of reporters.

Awfully nice of them given that they damn sure hadn't released this to the public at the time, and yet PopMech was given unprecedented access even though the report was not yet even complete, and an interview with the lead researcher.

Quote:

But jet fuel wasn't the only thing burning, notes Forman Williams, a professor of engineering at the University of California, San Diego, and one of seven structural engineers and fire experts that PM consulted. He says that while the jet fuel was the catalyst for the WTC fires, the resulting inferno was intensified by the combustible material inside the buildings, including rugs, curtains, furniture and paper. NIST reports that pockets of fire hit 1832°F.

Yeah, I'd like to see that NIST report, cause I ain't seen a one of em sayin that - but lets give the benefit of the doubt for a moment, and just point out this wasn't public at the time neither, and it's somewhat contradictory to statements made by NIST even as late as Feb 2004.

Mind those are the claims which would have *required* information not available to the public, and many of the listed sources aren't people who would just spill to a civvie magazine without express orders to do so, especially in light of other media outlets being brushed off with no-comment or still-investigating, and yet all of the sudden for reasons inexplicable they open up so freely to PopMech ?

Seriously, you find me some OTHER explaination that fits the facts better than Benny boy getting tossed a softball from the powers that be.

Also, I do find it amusing that John Pike is cited as one of their "Experts" being a private intel specialist who, IMHO, couldn't pour piss out of a boot if the directions were stamped on the heel... ok,ok, might be exaggerating that, but only so much.

-Frem

I do not serve the Blind God.

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Thursday, November 11, 2010 11:35 AM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up


Quote:

Originally posted by Fremdfirma:

Apparently you're unfamilar with editors, and I bloody told you that you were going to have to wait a bit, did I not ?

Look, I know your game, ok, push folk into spending countless hours running stuff down that you will dismiss out of hand to waste their time and frustrate them for your amusement,...



Frem. I just want to know one thing from you. Do you or do you not have any actual evidence to back up your allegation that Ben Chertoff of PM and Michael Chertoff of the government have enough of a relationship to justify Ben being complicent in a 9/11 coverup? That's pretty much all I want to discuss. You brought up the other stuff instead of answering that one question.

So far you've said Be Chertoff did a hatchet job on the 9/11 'facts', that you don't trust him, and that you don't trust editors. That's it. You've provided not even a bit of proof of any such conspiracy aside from you wanting it to be so.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Thursday, November 11, 2010 11:44 AM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up


Quote:

Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
Yeah, I'd like to see that NIST report, cause I ain't seen a one of em sayin that - but lets give the benefit of the doubt for a moment, and just point out this wasn't public at the time neither, and it's somewhat contradictory to statements made by NIST even as late as Feb 2004.



It's supper time, so I'll just go to this one.

Quote:

In no instance did NIST report that steel in the WTC towers melted due to the fires. The melting point of steel is about 1,500 degrees Celsius (2,800 degrees Fahrenheit). Normal building fires and hydrocarbon (e.g., jet fuel) fires generate temperatures up to about 1,100 degrees Celsius (2,000 degrees Fahrenheit). NIST reported maximum upper layer air temperatures of about 1,000 degrees Celsius (1,800 degrees Fahrenheit) in the WTC towers (for example, see NCSTAR 1, Figure 6-36).

However, when bare steel reaches temperatures of 1,000 degrees Celsius, it softens and its strength reduces to roughly 10 percent of its room temperature value. Steel that is unprotected (e.g., if the fireproofing is dislodged) can reach the air temperature within the time period that the fires burned within the towers. Thus, yielding and buckling of the steel members (floor trusses, beams, and both core and exterior columns) with missing fireproofing were expected under the fire intensity and duration determined by NIST for the WTC towers.



http://wtc.nist.gov/pubs/factsheets/faqs_8_2006.htm



"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Thursday, November 11, 2010 12:05 PM

STORYMARK


Quote:

Originally posted by Fremdfirma:

I bloody told you that you were going to have to wait a bit, did I not ?



Hmm, it seems you might have plenty of time to answer that one question if you didn't spend so much time explaining why you don't have time.

"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."

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Thursday, November 11, 2010 5:01 PM

FREMDFIRMA



Yeah, cause digging up and crossreffing years old information to a specific timeline is so much faster than pounding out a mere description of the events of a day, sure...

-F

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Thursday, November 11, 2010 5:10 PM

MAGONSDAUGHTER


http://www.world-mysteries.com/newgw/gw_rmd1.htm

the psychology of conspiracy theories


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Friday, November 12, 2010 8:37 PM

OUT2THEBLACK

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Friday, November 12, 2010 8:44 PM

OUT2THEBLACK


It's only Science , not something we should allow to get in the way of the 'Official' story , right ?

http://physics911.net/

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Friday, November 12, 2010 8:51 PM

OUT2THEBLACK


Quote:

Originally posted by Magonsdaughter:


the psychology of conspiracy theories




Permaybehaps if some Folk would actually care to READ a little about the nature of some Facts , rather than crack off on a fan forum about 'conspiracy theories' , then they'd have a better go at figuring some thing out for themselves...

It's like the famous George Carlin quote about how stupid the 'average' person is , and the reality of how many people are stupider than THAT !

http://www.scientistsfor911truth.org/

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Friday, November 12, 2010 8:55 PM

OUT2THEBLACK

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Friday, November 12, 2010 8:58 PM

OUT2THEBLACK




Anyone else here think it an oddity that it was alleged that the WTC7 building was 'pulled' by the NYFD , and it exhibited the same freefall characteristics as Towers 1 & 2 at the WTC complex ?

Exactly how long has NYFD been in the business of demolition , do tell ?

And , a collective 25,000 years of Architectural Engineering experience amomgst the AE911 Truth group should be ignored , because that also gets in the way of the 'official' story ?

Wisdom does have its limits , but as always , stupidity knows no bounds , yanno ?

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=1f7_1284992662

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Friday, November 12, 2010 9:08 PM

OUT2THEBLACK

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Friday, November 12, 2010 9:48 PM

PIRATENEWS

John Lee, conspiracy therapist at Hollywood award-winner History Channel-mocked SNL-spoofed PirateNew.org wooHOO!!!!!!


Quote:

Originally posted by out2theblack:

It's like the famous George Carlin quote about how stupid the 'average' person is , and the reality of how many people are stupider than THAT !



That's exactly what They are counting on.

"They" being the jews at the international private "Federal" Reserve Bank, whose counterfeit trillion$ pay for all the big crimes.

BTW my job in US Air Force was nuking active US military bases in highly populated areas, by explosive controlled demolition of a dozen nuclear bombs, under command of NATO not Pentagon nor White House. This is a common job for 100s or 1,000s of US soldiers.

So Big Brother routinely plans to bomb its own buildings, and routinely installs the explosives in its own buildings 100s of times per year..

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Saturday, November 13, 2010 5:23 AM

OUT2THEBLACK


“I do this real moron thing, it's called thinking, and I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opionions.”
~George Carlin

Of course , we should all believe the 'official' story , because the government is always honest and efficient and would never , ever Lie.

Just ask any Native American.


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Saturday, November 13, 2010 3:11 PM

PIRATENEWS

John Lee, conspiracy therapist at Hollywood award-winner History Channel-mocked SNL-spoofed PirateNew.org wooHOO!!!!!!


New 9/11 docu-not-a-drama:



From the 9/11 widows who created the 9/11 Commission coverup and brought you:



http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=5589099104255077250

www.911pressfortruth.com


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Saturday, November 13, 2010 7:32 PM

MAGONSDAUGHTER


Quote:

Originally posted by out2theblack:


Anyone else here think it an oddity that it was alleged that the WTC7 building was 'pulled' by the NYFD , and it exhibited the same freefall characteristics as Towers 1 & 2 at the WTC complex ?



I just find the conspiracy theories absurd, and I have looked at the facts.

If you take any - ANY - major event of the past 50 years, particularly if that event involves America in some way, you'll find that conspiracy theories abound. No one ever seems to be able to accept that anything was how it appeared to be or the official version. while I do accept cover ups and botch ups, I can't buy into the notion of the organisation required to cover up all the so called true stories. the world may be a mean, vicious, self serving place, and groups of people are in each others pockets, but basically it is also chaotic, disorganised and just not that capable of pulling this sort of stuff off.

If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, usually it is just a duck ... it's just that it'd be awhole lot more interesting if it was a dinosaur or an alien or something?


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Saturday, November 13, 2010 8:09 PM

FREMDFIRMA


Quote:

Originally posted by Magonsdaughter:
the world may be a mean, vicious, self serving place, and groups of people are in each others pockets, but basically it is also chaotic, disorganised and just not that capable of pulling this sort of stuff off.


Ding ding ding.

That's the thing, and where I get into it with others over this - there *IS* no large scale, all encompassing conspiracy, not only is it logistically impossible, but folk, govt, biz, private, are all too damn selfish and turf based...

What you get, is a whole fuckload of smaller ones, all crashing into each other in combination with a whole lotta office politics and six tons of ass covering and blame storming, and more often than not EVERYONE is lying, to one degree or another.

But that's harder for some folk to accept, and it's a right bitch to investigate, yeah.

-F

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